Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 400



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
Re: Jumps
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Adventures during wartime
Gateway to the Stars -- A Review
RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjumps
Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
RE: Jumpspace
re: Drop Tanks
Re: Adventures during wartime.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:05:30 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

> >Nope, thats probable correct. Nobody ever said star-travel on un-maintained
> >spacebuckets is completely safe.
> Better read the rule again. That 1-in-36 chance of a misjump is the best
> chance you get. It is for ships with fully maintained jump drives. In other
> words, it is the chance of a completely unprovoked misjump. I can easily
> imagine a universe where that was the case, but it would look nothing like
> the Traveller Universe.
With that i was referring to the chance of jumping into an empty hex, not of the
percentage chance of misjumping. 

> >Although id also think the percentage is a little high though.
> You're SOOOO right ;-). Something like 1-in-216 might be reasonable, though
> I'm not completely sure of that.
Id say that 1/36th is too high as well. That way, fleets would loose 1/36th of their
strength after a jump! No long term-lond distance operation could be reasonable carried
out. Just imagine the Corridor-fleet transfer to the Dulinor-front in MT. The non-combat
losses would have been astronomical!

Id say that 1/216th sounds better indeed (that is 1,1,1 on three d6, right?)
Then 1/1296 sounds even better and fitting to Traveller Canon to me! 
If we were to use that, the DMs would have to be adjusted, though!

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:14:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> -> Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is possible
> -> by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any canon
> -> specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I think
> -> somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see the
> -> specifics to revise my theory accurately.
> Well, canon states that "jumps" take one week. 'Nowhere as mention on
> the destination.
> So i'd assume that jumps to any deestination take about a week.period!

For the most part, jumps do take a week. But jump 0 and jumps to empty space are the
exception that makes the rule.

> ->
> -> Problem 3: Drop tanks.  I'd again need the specifics on what is possible with
> -> drop tanks.  These seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
> Drop tanks are containers that can be mouinted inside  your cargo
> space, thereby reducing it significantly. They allow you to double
> the amount of fuel that u usually could transport and thus allow you
> to make two jumps with one load without having to refuel.

Aren't those just extra fuel containers or collapsible bladders?  I'm talking about
something you'd eject and thus reduce your volume.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:28:21 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> This is an interesting model...
>
> On the other hand, as I understand canon, the jump process is fire-and-
> forget. That is, the bulk of the jump drive is a specialized power plant
> that burns up the jump fuel very quickly and stores the power in specialized
> capacitors which are then fully discharged into the jump grid.

I thought the same thing. But there was a recent flamewar about whether or not you
could make a jump torpedo. The notion was, if you can do all the calculations and
you're pretty much out of control during jump, then why have a pilot at all.  Then
I looked at the fuel consumption for a jump.  At the appropriate tech level, a
fusion reactor using up all that fuel in relatively zero time would be orders of
magnitude larger than the ship. That lead me to the the curious formula for
jumpdrive size and fuel. 1+Parsec capability. So I postulated that the 1 in the
formula was used to generate the jump field for a week, while the rest of the fuel
gets converted into subatomic particals stored in the jump field and in the
Lanthanum coil.  The coil then launches one charge which the opposite charge
(suspended in the field) is attracted to.  This drags the field and ship forward
(at zero inertia, this doesn't take much).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:38:09 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Volker Greimann wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Drop tanks are containers that can be mouinted inside  your cargo
> space, thereby reducing it significantly. They allow you to double
> the amount of fuel that u usually could transport and thus allow you
> to make two jumps with one load without having to refuel.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Not exactly. Those are Dismountable or Collapsible tanks. Drop Tanks
> are mounted on the outside of a ship, increasing the ship's fuel capacity
> while also increasing it's volume. They can either be carried through jump
> space (with the ship performing at a lower jump number), or can be
> emptied and dropped just before jump (allowing the ship to use the
> fuel to jump with, but not take the increased volume penalty).
>

Let me see if I understand this right.  The ship without drop tanks doesn't have
enough fuel for its maximum jump?  No, I'm looking at the TNE Gazelle right
now.  Its got enough internal fuel capacity for its Jump 5 without the tanks.
Maybe the Gazelle doesn't have standard tanks but it looks like the procedure
is:1) Fill tanks
2) Jump 3 with tanks (using internal fuel)
3) pump fuel from tanks to internal
4) drop the tanks
5) Jump 5 with the (now) internal fuel.

There's no reason to drop your tanks in a jump field.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:44:04 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Anders Backman wrote:

> >        Do the math, and remember GmM/R^2 is technically ONLY valid for
> >point masses. When you integrate over all points in an infinite
> >plate, you find out that Leonard was right. Or trust us ... we're
> >from the government and we're here to help you.
>
> Also note that the more or less homogenous field experienced between two
> plates in a capacitor is actually created from attracting pointsources with
> 1/r^2 drop off. If you agree that capacitors work the way the are supposed
> to then the homogenous grav field will work too.

But  then you aren't moving.  You'll be stationary inside the grav plates.  If
you move the plates, inertia  will hold you in place and then you'll smack into
one of them

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:48:35 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

At 09:05 AM 4/17/98 , Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>With that i was referring to the chance of jumping into an empty hex, not
of the
>percentage chance of misjumping. 
>
Which is 1 in 72 on a well maintained ship using good fuel and not taking
risks (assuming average stellar density).

To determine if this is a reasonable risk, we ought to look at shipping
losses in various historical periods.  Did 16th-17th century Spanish
merchants risk losing 1 in 72 ships crossing the atlantic?  If so, then the
model may work.  I don't have access to Spanish or Colonial records, so I
can't determine if it's a close match.

Misjump is a factor which doesn't seem to have been added into the shipping
costs debate that was going on earlier.  Can you still ship TL6 Cloth Armor
75 jumps economically when there is a 75 *(1 in 36) chance of a misjump and
a 75 * (1 in 72) chance of a deadly misjump.

How do you all handle this IYTUs?  "I'm sorry, your ship jumped to an empty
hex.  Do you have enough food and fuel for 3.26 years to get to the nearest
star?  OK, roll new characters."  This seems harsh.
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:46:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumps

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Problem 2: Jumps to empty space.  Although tricky and inaccurate, it is
> possible
> >by my theory. This only takes half the time, but I don't know of any canon
> >specifically stating that jumping into an empty space takes a week. I think
> >somebody may have mentioned deep space instalations, but I'd need to see the
> >specifics to revise my theory accurately.
>
>   All normal jumps take close to a week; no jump can be under the
> minimum assigned to the "one week" value range, IIRC.

  Note that misjumps can result in a 5 day jump and normal jumps can be 6 days,
so there are exceptions.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:53:18 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

At 02:42 AM 4/17/98 , David P. Summers wrote:
>Thu, 16 Apr 1998 17:43:17 -0500, Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>>At 05:26 PM 4/16/98 , David P. Summers wrote:
>>>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>>>war is just about to start.  
>
>>I guess it depends on team skill set.  Blockade runner is always a favorite
>>of mine.  War Profiteer.  Enemy Commerce Raider.  If they're pirates, give
>>them a letter of marque.  put them on a planet, send them away from their
>>ship, and then have Zho jump-troops take the starport.  They have to
>>infiltrate the port and steal their ship back...
>
>They will be on the Imperial Side doing "official" and
>semi-official things.
>
>How would commerce raiding work.  Wouldn't it just be a bunch
>of space combats?
>
It can be.  It could also take place on a world or a highport.  Chris
Seaman's mentions Casablanca, which is an excellent adventure seed
generator.  Many war movies will work well.  The Dirty Dozen.  The Great
Escape.  Bridge on the River Kwai.

There are also numerous JTAS articles on the subject: I read two last
night: One called "A Dagger At Efate" and another about a Regina University
expedition to rescue an seven person archaeology team stranded behind Zho
lines at a dig on a water world.

>Getting stranded behind lines is an idea....

One that can be played again and again.  Misjump them into a big Zho
staging area, then let them fight their way back to tell the Imps about the
invasion force.  Have lots of intrigue as they have to get fuel at each
neutral port in between.  Have Zhos overjump them and be waiting when they
get there.

Use the time lag of communiations against them.  They're on a routine
mission to a friendly star, but it was captured two weeks prior to their
arrival by Zhos.

They're tied up at the docks having yearly maintainance done when the Zho
Fleet appears in orbit.  Do they run or do they try to convince the Zhos
that they are merchants who don't care who's in charge?

For some good reading on the subject of space war in a merchant-dominated
star empire, I'd recommend CJ Cherryh.  Downbelow Station, Heavy
Time/Hellburner, Tripoint, Rimrunners. (Esp Rimrunners).  Good feel of a
war or close to war situation.  Also has all the same communication lag
issues that make Traveller society what it is.
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:54:52 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime

> David P. Summers posted:
>
>How would commerce raiding work.  Wouldn't it just be a bunch
>of space combats?

Nooo! Think submarine warfare!

*The* most spine-tingling adventures can be had by trying to
infiltrate an enemy system or convoy to attack merchant
shipping while _avoiding_ the escorts. You need the
Traveller-equivalent of a sub. In effect, a starship which is
extremely stealthy (i.e. small and slow-moving with a
difficult-to-detect maneuver drive) and has the best 
_passive_ sensors available as well as powerful weapons
which are difficult to trace back to the shooter (in other
words, PAWS or meson guns). Shortcomings in any of
these areas makes the job much more difficult.

Anybody can say what they want about Brilliant Lances but
one thing it allowed for is the use of stealth tactics, especially
when used in conjuction with Merrick's BL sensor rules
modifications.

The are two major downsides of such an adventure to keep
in mind:

1) it can take a *long* time in realtime to play out.
 
You need a way to find a worthwhile target. With the lack of
FTL commo, just gathering the info can be one heck of a
challenge. Then you need to actually get to the area your
target will be at by the time you get there.

2) any vessel caught on such a mission will have every
military ship in range dedicated to killing it. 

And I do mean _kill_.

No merchant escort will ever consider for even a moment
trying to take prisoners when a merchant they're responsible
for is under attack and others could be attacked. 

These are some of the problems pirates face which is why
some TMLers believe piracy is virtually impossible in space.
The real problem with commerce raiding that piracy doesn't
have is the simple fact that, in a war, the hostile side
*assumes* commerce raiding will occur and will automatically
take steps to protect against it. Assuming you find a convoy
route that can be raided, the escorts are already waiting for
you. At least piracy has the advantage of being unexpected.

I believe that most sinkings in WWII took place at some distance
from the various shipping ports. In Traveller, thanks to not being
able to track anything in Jumpspace, your commerce raider
is going to have to actually lurk *in* the ports at the 100diam limit
where the military will place most of its pickets/sensor platforms.
The easiest way to protect shipping is to limit their jump points
to a very few and then inundate those points with low-jump
destroyers, SDBs, etc. Jumpspace automatically protects any
ship in it from being detected so I'd stick with SDB pickets at the
controlled jump points rather than escorts than accompany the
merchants into Jumpspace.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:57:56 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Gateway to the Stars -- A Review

<NO SPOILERS>
I, too, have finished this book. In summating my opinion I realized that
most of my comments were negative. But, I generally have high standards and
have negative opinions of most popular press SF out there. I was going to
try to moderate this review in light of comparison with comparable books.
However in discussing this with a member of the trade, he railed upon me to
tell it like it is. That there is too much crap out there as it is. People
should not tolerate it or we will always have crap out there. So, I'm
bowing to his logic. If your tastes in reading material are not high, and
you are please with pure escapist material to kill time, then you will not
find this book as negative as I portray below. If you prefer literature
that challenges social, philosophical, or political issues, presents
intriguing microcosms of human (or alien) behavior, or just plain makes you
think, take it as read.
On to the review...

I have the feeling that they chose the author of this book based on two
criteria:
  a) He's published before (that great literary blockbuster "Countdown to
Chaos")
  b) He was cheap
His writing is pedestrian at best. His characters, at best, rise to two
dimensional. The names he chooses are more suited to children's fiction
(Mr. & Mrs. Blork, Floogle Berries, ...) The book is one long string of
clichs after another. That latter, in and of itself, isn't too bad, as
much of the "feel" of Traveller is 1950s battleships in space. The book is
populated with thick, heavyset bullies, balding, whining officials, and
scheming rogues. There is a police investigator at one point that bears
more than a passing familiarity to Kojack.
  The main character evoked no sympathy in me. I cared not if he lived,
died, became fabulously wealthy, or completely impoverished. He was either
so much more fabulously clever/more skilled than almost everyone he ran
into. If he wasn't then they were much more fabulously clever/more skilled
than he. Nothing in between The Problem-PC with the Problem-DM syndrome. I
am reminded of bad-trek fiction. You know the sort where a strong female
character rescues the Enterprise, has sex with Spock, and runs off at the
end fabulously wealthy. Where the author has blatantly inserted themselves
into the plot as the hero whom nothing can touch. I'd have to review his
other books to be certain of this but I haven't that much time to waste.
  An enigma is presented, about two chapters late, that does give you a
slight interest in the story. But at no time was I unable to put the book
down. The plot twists that are presented are totally from left field. Good
authors will drop little clues so that when you hit the turn you think back
(often at a 2nd reading) and go "yeah, I should have seen that". Bad
authors will but up large road signs indicating clearly to all concerned
(except the characters) that the plot is about to twist. This author does
neither. He gives no clue and no warning. It is sort of like being a player
and having the referee suddenly announce "The bomb the Ine Givar planted on
your ship three months ago behind the jefreis tube in your secondary power
plant suddenly explodes."
  As the author relies so much on clich, not much is spent on descriptive
narrative. As the dialog is canned as well we have to put up a lot with the
introspection of the main character who spends much of his time wistfully
wishing he was in the plot of the next novel (I'm serious). Much is made of
how boring traveling between the stars (searching for adventure) is. Much
of this boredrum rubs off on the readers. At one point they are
transitioning an uninhabited system (or null point, I wasn't sure). Their
sole entertainment was to tune in to distended broadcasts from nearby
stars. They were several years out of date, but it was presented as better
than nothing. The obvious question was well why didn't they have recorded
entertainment (like, even an 8-track), or just read books? I guess, though,
that if the author assumes his standard of writing is prevalent in the Far
Future then tuning into radio-last-decade was a more realistic
entertainment option.

  So far I've just talked of the book as a story. Let me discuss it as a
work of _Traveller_.
  There area  number of points where the author departs from established
canon. Some I can forgive under the logic that he wished to create dramatic
situations and so bent the rules. Others were just plain ignorance.
  Aliens. Well, I kind of liked his treatment of Aslan, particularly the
ones without speaking lines. I would have like to seen an Aslan female, and
the distinction between them, portrayed. Given the plot, though, it would
really have just been distracting. K'kree are introduced as a plot device
sufficiently close to their canonical representation. Vilani (which they
spell at least 3 different ways) are sort of made out as camp fops, which
is a bit odd. One species, the Guy-troy, figures prominently. I _think_
they were covered in a Contact! article, but I'm not sure. They are, for
the most part, pretty much in line with Traveller minor races.
  Ships. Well, the far trader has meson canons and meson screens. I guess
the author did that for drama. Odd how he readily adopts so many clichs
but can't accept laser turrets. He makes it a bit more cramped and grungier
than my floor plans indicate, but I guess he is going for more drama. There
are little "oops"es where they only pull 95% of a jump-2 so as not to
strain the engines, pop into system half a light year short and go the rest
of the way on maneuver drive. !!! My biggest beef, though, is that they
spend as much time worrying about refueling as they do changing the
lemon-scented hand-towels in the staterooms. Fuel, refueling, refined,
unrefined, scooping are such important parts of the Traveller universe that
they should not be left out like that. Sure, you want to move the plot
along, but they should be there as background.
  Setting. Hoo boy. Here we go.
  You could say that Gateway is _nominally_ Milieu-0. Sort of the feel
(insofar as there was ever any _feel_ to Milieu-0). But it could just as
easily be Milieu-1100 in, say, Gateway sector. With a little change to
references to _which_ Imperium they are in it could just as easily be 2nd
Imperium or post-TNE.
  There is no Emperor, no Moot. Just a Ruling Council. Sure, they were weak
emperors or ones that never really impinged on the populace much, and maybe
the author didn't like the term "Moot" (although since he was willing to
stoop to expletives such as "Farg" I'm not sure why). [Hmm, call it post
TNE, the Reformation Coalition (RC) become the Ruling Council (RC).]
  The Imperial military consists solely of the Marines. No other branch is
ever mentioned.
  There is only one MegaCorporation, called a Combine, which is secretly
run by aliens (non-spoiler, it is revealed as soon as it is introduced).
  There is the "Guild" which is sort of like the Spacer's Union. Not a bad
addition. There is a system of certifications which is quite logical and
sensible. I had a similar system in my own campaign and you might say it is
implicit in the rules. It is good to make it explicit here as inspiration
for other GMs.
  They have "Universal ID"s, basically programmable ID cards. I've seen
stats on these before but their use in the novel makes it much clearer for
DMs.
  The Traveller's Aid Society is never mentioned.
  The Ancients are specifically called Droyne and are extinct. But, I don't
have a great problem with this. I can accept the author preferred the name
"Droyne" to the, admittedly, cliched "Ancient". And, in Milieu-0, they
don't necessarily know that the Chirpers are related to the modern Droyne
and that either of them are related to the Ancients.

  I could discuss the business sense in releasing it now. What timing might
have been better and any number of could-have-beens that would have made
this a wonderful thing to promote Traveller. But as such has always fallen
on deaf ears before, I'm not going to waste the bandwidth.

  All in all I found the novel rather hard to rationalise with the normal
Traveller background. But, after a few beers, I think I have found a way to
do so to my satisfaction.
  Gateway should not be considered to be a novel read by modern 20th
century humans portraying events in the Imperium that we know from the
games. Rather it should be seen as a game supplement. It is a near-Future
fiction novel, written in early Milieu-0 and read by our characters in
campaigns. From the perspective of someone living in Milieu-0 the Emporer
might be seen as a passing thing (It'll never catch on!), having just got
fusion+ and so forth, surely personal meson turrets and screens were _just_
around the corner, and it would explain all the fictionalised names.

  Cheers,
             Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:00:48 -0400
From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
Subject: RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

    A 1 in 72 chance would almost certainly rule out the use of larger
ships ( such as those 500,000+ ton freighters everyone's so hot for ).
Who would spend hundreds of MCr ( even GCr? ) on a ship that can only be
expected to make 72 jumps before it vanishes?
    16th century Spanish ships didn't represent quite that level of
investment.

   Chris Jones
   Manhattan Associates, LLC
   770-955-5533 ~1477
   cjones@manhattanassociates.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Michael Croft [SMTP:croft@neosoft.com]
> Sent:	Friday, April 17, 1998 10:49 AM
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
> 
> At 09:05 AM 4/17/98 , Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> >With that i was referring to the chance of jumping into an empty hex,
> not
> of the
> >percentage chance of misjumping. 
> >
> Which is 1 in 72 on a well maintained ship using good fuel and not
> taking
> risks (assuming average stellar density).
> 
> To determine if this is a reasonable risk, we ought to look at
> shipping
> losses in various historical periods.  Did 16th-17th century Spanish
> merchants risk losing 1 in 72 ships crossing the atlantic?  If so,
> then the
> model may work.  I don't have access to Spanish or Colonial records,
> so I
> can't determine if it's a close match.
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:04:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Joe Pettit writes:
> >I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an
> >overloaded HPG.
>
> No, jump energy is stored in something called zuchai crystals, a naturally
> occuring substance with some quite interesting properties (artificial
> zuchai crystals can be manufactured, but they are inferior to natural
> zuchai crystals in some undefined way. Since these zuchai crystals are
> imaginary, they can have whatever characterisitcs and abilities the
> author wants, as long as their existence don't screw up some other
> well-established technology. (For instance, what happens if you fill
> a crystal chock full of energy and then hit it with a hammer? Could one
> use such crystals as the basis of a weapon?).

OK from what I've heard about canon (note that I only have the TNE and MT
rule books) Jump machinery has 1/3 HPG and Zuchai Crystals and either
Lanthanum grids or Lanthanum coils. If Zuchai crystals can store massive
amounts of electricity, i.e. electrons, then that would be a reasonable
location to store the converted hydrogen electrons.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:09:27 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Wes Morris writes:
> >>misjump would be to a map hex with no star system. Life expectency for
> >>traveller's just became 36 months.
> >>
> >>I know I must be misunderstanding something. What is it?
>

Err... umm... I think I must be out of the loop but TNE misjumps only affect your
time to target and maybe the distance.   Only an aggravated catastrophic failure
results in you ending up in the wrong system.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:24:25 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Let me see if I understand this right.  The ship without drop tanks doesn't have
enough fuel for its maximum jump?  No, I'm looking at the TNE Gazelle right
now.  Its got enough internal fuel capacity for its Jump 5 without the tanks.
Maybe the Gazelle doesn't have standard tanks but it looks like the procedure
is:1) Fill tanks
2) Jump 3 with tanks (using internal fuel)
3) pump fuel from tanks to internal
4) drop the tanks
5) Jump 5 with the (now) internal fuel.

There's no reason to drop your tanks in a jump field.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, you can make a ship without enough fuel in it's onboard tanks for the jump
capability it's drives allow. That's probably an unusual design, though - the
CT Gazelle was one, capable of Jump-4 if it kept it's tanks, could do a 
Jump-5 if it burned all fuel and dropped tanks, but was limited to only
Jump-2 (due to fuel limitations) after the tanks were dropped.

The usual use for drop tanks is to allow you to do two jumps without refueling,
AND without losing any of your interior cargo space. You don't actually drop
your tanks in the jump field, you drain them (charging the capacitors), drop
them, THEN activate the jump field.

So, the procedure for Drop Tanks would be:
1) Fill tanks
2) Burn fuel directly from tanks to jump capacitors
3) Drop the tanks
4) Jump
5) Jump again with internal fuel

The procedure you detailed above seems more akin to what you'd do with internal
dismountable tanks or collapsible tanks.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:37:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Let me see if I understand this right.  The ship without drop tanks doesn't have
> enough fuel for its maximum jump?  No, I'm looking at the TNE Gazelle right
> now.  Its got enough internal fuel capacity for its Jump 5 without the tanks.
> Maybe the Gazelle doesn't have standard tanks but it looks like the procedure
> is:1) Fill tanks
> 2) Jump 3 with tanks (using internal fuel)
> 3) pump fuel from tanks to internal
> 4) drop the tanks
> 5) Jump 5 with the (now) internal fuel.
>
> There's no reason to drop your tanks in a jump field.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Yes, you can make a ship without enough fuel in it's onboard tanks for the jump
> capability it's drives allow. That's probably an unusual design, though - the
> CT Gazelle was one, capable of Jump-4 if it kept it's tanks, could do a
> Jump-5 if it burned all fuel and dropped tanks, but was limited to only
> Jump-2 (due to fuel limitations) after the tanks were dropped.
>
> The usual use for drop tanks is to allow you to do two jumps without refueling,
> AND without losing any of your interior cargo space. You don't actually drop
> your tanks in the jump field, you drain them (charging the capacitors), drop
> them, THEN activate the jump field.
>
> So, the procedure for Drop Tanks would be:
> 1) Fill tanks
> 2) Burn fuel directly from tanks to jump capacitors
> 3) Drop the tanks
> 4) Jump
> 5) Jump again with internal fuel
>
> The procedure you detailed above seems more akin to what you'd do with internal
> dismountable tanks or collapsible tanks.
>
> Walt Smith

  So what you're saying is that somebody was trying to eat his cake and have it too,
made up this rule breaking canon, slipped it in by saying it was reallly dangerous
and now we're stuck with it?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:50:08 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Jumpspace

>
>>> >> Thank you for pointing that out.  I mentioned it previously
>in another
>>> >> post.  The simple solution is to encapsulate everything in a jump
>>> >> bubble.  i.e. Light behaves in  the prescribed measure inside a jump
>>> >> bubble.
>>>
>>>   By this model, wouldn't a Jump to empty space only take half a week?
>...
>>The concept is to mimic the rules with theory.
>...
>
>  I happen to be less than thrilled with allowing accurate jumps to
>interstellar space, and have some concerns about mechanisms that allow
>the use of auxiliary or collapsible tanks. Regardless, you need to
>cover those things to conform maximally with any edition of Traveller.
>
>

Didn't the adventure "Secret of the Ancients" require the players to jump to
an empty hex in the Regina subsector?

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:47:54 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  So what you're saying is that somebody was trying to eat his cake and have it too,
made up this rule breaking canon, slipped it in by saying it was reallly dangerous
and now we're stuck with it?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Been around a long time - before MT, TNE or T4. The Tukhera Brilliance tragedy
just after the Fifth Frontier War is the only canonical reference to it being
dangerous, there are several canonical references to drop tanks being used.

Again, if you don't want them IYTU, don't use them. Weren't you on this list
earlier when drop tanks were discussed? You're talking like this is the first
you've heard of them.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:46:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

At 03:26 PM 4/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>might be reasonably expected to do?  

Rather than having them actually involved in the war's prosecution, have
them get caught up in it.  Hauling refugees, being caught on the ground
when the Zhodani invade, even running the resistance on an occupied world.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #400
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 401



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Adventures during wartime.
RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: FTL commo
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Jumpspace
Hey!
Re: Jumps
Re: Drop Tanks 
Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 08:49:40 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

At 12:42 AM 4/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>They will be on the Imperial Side doing "official" and
>semi-official things.  (They aren't yet, but some of them are
>scouts that will get called up and I'll draft some of the
>others.)

Here are some ideas for a single scout ship:

1. Resupply of an advance listening post.  
2. Shadowing Zhodani Fleet movements.
3. Taking out an individual Zho Admiral.
4. Transporting a single, very importanr EPW.
5. Helping Norris recover that pesky Imperial Warrant.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:06:00 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

At 10:00 AM 4/17/98 , Chris Jones wrote:
>    A 1 in 72 chance would almost certainly rule out the use of larger
>ships ( such as those 500,000+ ton freighters everyone's so hot for ).
>Who would spend hundreds of MCr ( even GCr? ) on a ship that can only be
>expected to make 72 jumps before it vanishes?
>    16th century Spanish ships didn't represent quite that level of
>investment.

Good point.  I hadn't considered the relative differences in the cost of
the ship to the cost of the cargo.  Anybody done any comparisons of the
numbers on this?  How far off of that model are traveller ships?

OTOH, we're assuming that the ship doesn't carry enough fuel to make two
jumps.  I'd expect that larger ships would.  I don't know all the versions
of the rules.  Is this allowed under all of them?  This makes the odds of a
catastrophic misjump much higher.  Given that a ship which has just
misjumped has the capability of another Jump-1 and that the density of
stars is approx 1/2 per parsec, this gives us the odds that a ship cannot
get to a planet as something like 1 in 4608 jumps (1 in 36 to misjump, 1 in
128 that the target hex and all hexes within Jump-1 are unable to refuel
the ship).  A ship capable of a jump-2 after a misjump has a 1 in 1.2
*billion* chance of being unable to reach a star system 1 in (6^2 *2^25).
These odds make misjumps a problem only for ships which don't carry extra
fuel.  I'd guess that along the mains, the big ships would be required to
do so.
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From:	Michael Croft [SMTP:croft@neosoft.com]
>> 
>> At 09:05 AM 4/17/98 , Volker A. Greimann wrote:
>> >With that i was referring to the chance of jumping into an empty hex,
>> not of the percentage chance of misjumping. 
>> >
>> Which is 1 in 72 on a well maintained ship using good fuel and not
>> taking risks (assuming average stellar density).
>> 
>> To determine if this is a reasonable risk, we ought to look at shipping
>> losses in various historical periods.  Did 16th-17th century Spanish
>> merchants risk losing 1 in 72 ships crossing the atlantic?  If so,
>> then the  model may work.  I don't have access to Spanish or Colonial
>> records, so I can't determine if it's a close match.

>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:16:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>   So what you're saying is that somebody was trying to eat his cake and have it too,
> made up this rule breaking canon, slipped it in by saying it was reallly dangerous
> and now we're stuck with it?
>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Been around a long time - before MT, TNE or T4. The Tukhera Brilliance tragedy
> just after the Fifth Frontier War is the only canonical reference to it being
> dangerous, there are several canonical references to drop tanks being used.
>

Its the conversion of fuel into energy then dumping the tanks that bothers me. Pumping
the fuel into your tanks after emptying them seems perfectly logical. There is an
extrapolation you can make if you allow that.  i.e. You put a tether from your ship into
a tanker jump using its fuel. The tanker stays behind and you still have a full tank at
the other end.  In fact, you can greatly reduce the size of your ship by eliminating
jump fuel altogether.  Just a jump drive and a hose going to a tanker/tender.  To me,
that's a bad bad rule.

> Again, if you don't want them IYTU, don't use them. Weren't you on this list
> earlier when drop tanks were discussed? You're talking like this is the first
> you've heard of them.

I've heard of them but I wasn't here when they were discussed. I don't have a problem
with tanks, its the conversion/energy storage thing that isn't working for me.  Since
I'm trying to model my jump theory as close to canon as possible, I need to figure out
how drop tanks fit in.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:22:14 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FTL commo

>>> >By Stupid amounts of power, I mean look at a star.  Now try to get some sort
>> >of meaningful information out of it.  You would get comparable data flow
>> >from comparable power levels (i.e. stellar power levels, i.e. a fusion
>> >reactor the size of a sun)

>  Better tell the people who designed the SETI arrangement. I haven't
>seen any of the astronomers on the list touch on this

See previous message. Certainly the analogy to stars doesn't mean a whole
lot (stars are ludicrously bright compared to the signal you'd need for
communication, and they're omnidirectional and broad-spectrum - very 
inefficient.) (I can't believe I'm arguing about whether stars are
efficient communication devices...)

Anyway...as I  said in an earlier post, a 1-m telescope with a 1-kilowatt
laser can get moderate bandwidth (100 bits per second) at a few parsecs;
a system like that would cost about a million dollars with current
technology. If you put it in space you'd pick up a factor of a hundred
in bandwidth. 

Radio is somewhat less efficient, but not impossible. I believe an 
Arecbo-sized dish beaming a directional signal can be seen by another
Arecbo out to ~10 parsecs. Arecebo can see the big military over-the-horizon
radars out to several parsecs too. Of course, that's somewhat bulky and
expensive, but the data rate could be pretty high.

>I suspect that using the "C approaches infinity
>in microgravity" case without jump bubbles it will be provably (and
>very) economic to assemble an FTL commo system over the longest ranges.

Very economical indeed.

Another point on the "evidence that the speed of light is c in microgravity" -
when we look at the very distant universe (billions of parsecs) it's pretty
clear we're seeing a time that was very different than the current epoch - 
more quasars, less well-developed galaxies - indicating that the light took
billions of years to get here.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:25:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

Bloo wrote;
>J-Man wrote:
>
>[snip New York City and Rochester stores]
>
>> How far are these shops from Andover, MA?  This is where my new job will
>> be.  (I'm currently in Camas, WA on the west coast)
>
>You're in for about a 5-8 hour drive to NY City, and probably 6-7 to
>Rochester, depending heavily on traffic.  For weekends, add an hour or
>more.  Not something most Yankees up here in Boston want to do ever day, but
>coming from Texas, that ain't nothing.

Crazy Egor's does mail order all over the planet, and will cheerfully
place out of print items on a want list for you if they don't have a copy;
they will then hunt at conventions, collection purchases, and auctions for
the item, and let you know if they are able to get a copy. I've gotten
some *very* hard to find FASA Star Trek stuff that way, and some OoP
Traveller material as well.

(It helps that I used to work there... :-)


Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have 2400c, will travel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:34:01 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

Find and destroy the secret Zhodani military base/cache in the Spinwards
Marches at Fulacin. This is mentioned in the 5th. Frontier War game, and
Adventure #3 Twilight's Peak. Page 18 and 19 of the game rules give a bunch of
role playing seeds that you would find useful.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:48:58 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Well, heres my take on this thread, IMTU.  

1. Fill tanks.
2. Burn fuel through jump coils, generating jump entry point.
3. Drop tanks.
4. Fall into jump point, leaving tanks tumbling behind.
5. Burn internal fuel at destination.
6. Fall into next jump point.

IMTU, the opening of an entry point takes 5-10 seconds, enough time to
release the tanks.  The point then pulls the jump coils, with the ship,
into the point.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., aka, Unit JAC of the Line, Ogre Mk V
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:57:23 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

james a clem wrote:

> Well, heres my take on this thread, IMTU.
>
> 1. Fill tanks.
> 2. Burn fuel through jump coils, generating jump entry point.
> 3. Drop tanks.
> 4. Fall into jump point, leaving tanks tumbling behind.
> 5. Burn internal fuel at destination.
> 6. Fall into next jump point.
>
> IMTU, the opening of an entry point takes 5-10 seconds, enough time to
> release the tanks.  The point then pulls the jump coils, with the ship,
> into the point.
>

What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
Burns fuel out of tanker.
Withdraws hose.
Falls into jump point.

The Freighter in this instance can perform a jump 6 with NO fuel.  Eliminate
the need for jump fuel and you save 35% of the volume of your ship.

I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm saying this falls into the category
of Jump Projectors which arrive around TL 21

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:00:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Crazy Egor  (Status of a Friend)

Eric wrote;
>Fellow Travellers:
>
>I thought I would let you know about Paul Meyer's situation, so here it is
>from the horse's mouth.  Paul and I are good friends, having attended
>McQuaid Jesuit High School together.  Please see that he hasn't left the
>business totally, but will operate closer to his home in Hilton, NY about 45
>minutes away from the shop in West Henrietta, NY.

Update (my mail system has been off-line for almost a week, or I would
have responded sooner).

Paul has finalized the deal with the new owner of the site (which is now
Milennium Games and Hobbies), and has moved out his product. The new store
will be open as soon as is possible, and right now Paul is (or should be)
setting up for CapCon. Mail Order and Want List are still being handled
(AFAIK), although shipments are probably a *little* delayed.

Check out his site;

http://www.crazyegors.com

for details on shipping, etc.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have 2400c, will travel
Cyber-troll

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:00:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

> From: Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
> 
> -> be assigned to some sort of MASH unit, where you can really hammer home the
> -> horrors of war if you so desire. 
> For a bit of color there, add a few well fleshedout NPC's. Call them 
> Hot lips, Hawkeye, Klinger, Radar, etc. ;-)

Geez, and here I was thinking nobody else ever heard of M*A*S*H :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:11:15 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 02:05 PM 4/16/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>> Joe Petit wrote:
>> >At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
>> >rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.
>> Unless
>> >you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
>> >from it, you'll always have this problem.
>>
>> Not so.  As Leonard has pointed out, a plane is very different from a point
>> source.

>I'm affraid somebody else will have to do the integration to prove this (its been
>a while for me)... let me see if I can figure out some of it.

Ask, and ye shall receive :)

>G = Sum( gravity at various points)
>      Gr = gravity at r radius from perpendicular intersection of plane (0
r =
>point of impact on plane)
>      Gr(D) = G/ (r^2 + D^2)  [from pythagorean theorum and newtonian
graviation]

NB, this force is directed along the line joining the mass element and the
test body.  By symmetry, we can ignore the horizontal component, and must
deal with the vertical one.

>      Gr(D + L) = G/(r^2 + (D+L)^2)
>     Sum r:0->Infinity Gr(D)


Determining the net force on an object a distance f from a disk thickness
s, density p, and radius L

  |\
  | \
  |o \
f |   \
  |    \ R
  |     \
  |      \
  |_______\
      r

The force on a particle at the top of this triangle caused by a small
particle of mass m on a particle at the top of mass M is

F = G M m/R^2.

or,

F = [integral over all mass] G M R^-2 dm

This force is directed along the line R.  To get the force in the y
direction, that is, along the line joining the object and the center of the
disk, we need to the component of the force along that axis.  This is

Fy = F cos(o).

and

Fy = [integral over all mass] G M R^-2 cos(o) dm

We now need just determine the mass of a small differential element on the
disc, and then integrate over the area of the disc.

To do this, we look at a small volume element.  It has density p, thickness
s, and size dx times dy, if we are in rectangular coordinates, thus

dm = s p dx dy.

Unfortunately, this is not convenient to integrate in.  Instead, we use
polar coordinates r and t.  On a circle, the differential area element is
dr times r dt.  (at a radius r, the distance swept out by a small change of
angle t is r times t, so if we move by dt, we trace out a length r dt.

We express dm in terms of r and theta:

dm = s p r dt dr

and thus

Fy = [integral over all mass] G M R^-2 cos(o) s p r dt dr

At this point, we note that we have cos(o), R, and r in the equation.  This
is a minor problem, as all three of these variables are related by two
identities.  If we take these two identities, we can get an integral with
real limits, instead of the rather unclear "over all mass."

1.  cos(o) = f/R  (Definition of cosine)

2.  R^2 = f^2 + r^2.  (Definition of distance)

Using the first of these:

Fy = [integral over all mass] G M R^-3 f s p r dt dr

Using the second:

Fy = [integral over all mass] G M (r^2 + f^2)^-3/2 f s p r dt dr


Lets pull out the constants: G, M, f, s, p:

Fy = G M f s p ([integral over all mass] r (r^2 + f^2)^-3/2 dt dr )

Noting number 2, we can make the following substitution:

Let u = f^2 + r^2.

du = 2 r dr

Note: r will go from 0 to L, thus u will go from f^2 to f^2 + L^2.

Substituting:

Fy = 0.5 G M f s p [integral over all mass] (u)^-3/2 dt du

Fy = 0.5 G M f s p *
	[Integral from f^2 to f^2+L^2]
		[integral from 0 to 2 Pi]
			u^-3/2 dt du

Do the theta integration which spins us around the disc:

Fy = Pi G M f s p *
	[Integral from f^2 to f^2+L^2]
		u^-3/2 dt

Do the r integral from the center to the edge:

Fy = - 2 Pi G M f s p ( u^-1/2 substituted at f^2+L^2 minus f^2)

or

Fy = - 2 Pi G M f s p ( (f^2+L^2)^-1/2 - (f^2)^-1/2)

or

Fy = 2 Pi G M f s p ( 1/f - f/(f^2+L^2))

or

Fy = 2 Pi G M s p (1 - 1/(f^2+L^2))

If we let L become arbitrarily large, it will send the /(f^2+L^2) term to
zero.

As a result, for an infinite disc, 

Fy = 2 Pi G M s p

where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the object we are
testing with, s is the thickness of the disc, and p is the density.

On a finite disc, let us put a person of height h at the center.  What is
the tidal force they feel?

deltaFy = F(0)-F(h)

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ (1 - 1/(L^2)) - (1 - 1/(h^2+L^2)) ]

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ 1 - 1/(L^2) - 1 + 1/(h^2+L^2) ]

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ 1/(h^2+L^2) - 1/(L^2) ]

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ L^2/L^2(h^2+L^2) - (h^2+L^2)/(h^2+L^2)(L^2) ]

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ (L^2-(h^2+L^2))/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

So, L is going to almost certainly dominate h, and thus the tidal force is
proportional roughly to the h^2/L^4, so any L even remotely large w.r.t h
is going to cause the tidal forces to be insignificant, compared to the
rather large constant force you will be feeling form the disc.

As an example, assume we are standing on an iron disc 7000 kilometers
thick.  I am not quite 2m tall, and weight (mumble) kilos.  For the sake of
calculation, lets just use 1 kg.

G = 6.67e-11
p = 7.87 g/cc = 7870 kg/m^3.
s = 7e6

Plug in the numbers

Fy = 2 Pi 6.67e-11 1 7e6 7870 = 7.35 N.

This is pretty fierce.  This disc is producing on the order .7 gs.

And now the tides?

h = 2
L = 2 meters (on a 7000 km thick disc!)
deltaFy = 7.35 [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

If we assume our finite disc is, say, just 2 meters wide, so we are on top
of a very thin, very tall cylinder, we get:

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -2^2/(2^2 2^2+2^4) ]

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(4*4+16) ]

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(32) ]

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -.125 ] = .91875, or just under .1 gravs.

This looks noticeable, but notice that we are about as far into the edge
effect region as we can get.  Try this with a disc which is only as wide as
it is thick:

h = 2
L = 3.5e6 (Diameter = 7e6, and radius is half that.)
deltaFy = 7.35 [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -2^2/((3.5e6)^2 2^2+(3.5e6)^4) ]

deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(1.225e13 *4 + 1.5e26) ]

deltaFy = 29.4/1.5e26

deltaFy = 2e-25

Or totally insignificant.  That L^4 term means that edge effects die down
very, very quickly.  As a result, as soon as you let L get substantial
w.r.t h, you get a uniform field.  If h is large w.r.t l, then this looks
like a point source.

>> This is quite germane, BTW, as Traveller has fields that are essentially
>> constant, else they would need to have the decks point in the direction of
>> thrust.
>
>They use contra grav to imitate this.  If your ship is flying like a boat in
>water, acceleration is acting perpendicular to your ship's gravity ground.

The question becomes what the conditions inside the vessel are if they use
AG in this way.

If, however, they are using uniform G fields to produce these effects, then
it is good to know how the tides behave inside your ship near the grav plates.

The above demonstrates that if the grav plates generate an even remotely
uniform field, edge effects can be ignored.  Especially if they can pinch
the field edges to minimize edge effects, or if they extend it a few meters
beyond the ship's hull.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:52:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Hey!

>Subject: Re: Jumpspace
...
>formula was used to generate the jump field for a week, while the rest of the fuel
>gets converted into subatomic particals stored in the jump field and in the
>Lanthanum coil.  The coil then launches one charge which the opposite charge
>(suspended in the field) is attracted to.  This drags the field and ship forward
>(at zero inertia, this doesn't take much).

  Forget the relativistic rocks, this looks like the potential for
building a Saberhagenesque C-plus cannon.

  Hmm, is there a basis for using 100 Dt ships as fire control auxiliaries
for Big Honking Warships? Jump it one way as a probe for your first volley,
and then use its' targeting data (beamed back to you - sending a pair of
these little buggers clipped together gets a little too strange). Nah, it
would probably be better simply to contact them.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 09:53:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jumps

>>   All normal jumps take close to a week; no jump can be under the
           ^^^
>> minimum assigned to the "one week" value range, IIRC.
     ^^^                                ^^^^^^^

>  Note that misjumps can result in a 5 day jump and normal jumps can be 6 days,
>so there are exceptions.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:53:04 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> 
> 
> Walter G. Smith wrote:
> > So, the procedure for Drop Tanks would be:
> > 1) Fill tanks
> > 2) Burn fuel directly from tanks to jump capacitors
> > 3) Drop the tanks
> > 4) Jump
> > 5) Jump again with internal fuel
> >
> > The procedure you detailed above seems more akin to what you'd do with internal
> > dismountable tanks or collapsible tanks.
> >
> > Walt Smith
> 
>   So what you're saying is that somebody was trying to eat his cake and have it too,
> made up this rule breaking canon, slipped it in by saying it was reallly dangerous
> and now we're stuck with it?
> 

How does this break canon?  HG v2 specifically stated that you could fit your 
ship with 'L-Hyd tanks'.  Specifically, this is on Pg 27.  Cost was 10KCr & 
1Kcr/ton of fuel carried by the tanks.  The cost of the tankage & insulation 
per se, IMTU, was the 1Kcr cost, the 10KCr was the cost of the high speed one 
shot pumps, power connectors, etc.  Since the tanks had negligible 'gravity' 
and density when sucked bone dry, you just needed to ditch them a few seconds 
from jump in order for the jump field to not bring the tanks or portions 
thereof along for the ride.

Weird thot:  Howbout a chance that the tanks aren't quite 'cleared' when the 
field snaps up, bringing some of the tank along for the ride to smack into the 
back of the ship a week later when it starts decellerating to come to port.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:57:22 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Its the conversion of fuel into energy then dumping the tanks that bothers me. 
Pumping the fuel into your tanks after emptying them seems perfectly logical. 
There is an extrapolation you can make if you allow that.  i.e. You put a tether 
from your ship into a tanker jump using its fuel. The tanker stays behind and 
you still have a full tank at the other end.  In fact, you can greatly reduce the 
size of your ship by eliminating jump fuel altogether.  Just a jump drive and a 
hose going to a tanker/tender.  To me, that's a bad bad rule.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, several of the people in the earlier discussion were using tanker & hose
setups in their Traveller campaigns just as you describe above. it seems that
if you allow drop tanks, you also allow these tankers. It would be nice to carry
another 6000 tons of cargo on your 10 kton j-6 fast freighter, wouldn't it?

Joe Petit also wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've heard of them but I wasn't here when they were discussed. I don't have a problem
with tanks, its the conversion/energy storage thing that isn't working for me.  Since
I'm trying to model my jump theory as close to canon as possible, I need to figure out
how drop tanks fit in.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
CT Canon allows drop tanks. I really haven't investigated FF&S starship construction,
but I'd be surprised if drop tanks were disallowed. The way that drop tanks work, 
letting you burn all your jump fuel at once, was a major point in a recent "how jump
drives work" flame-fest - it was seen as proof that the ship used up all the fuel at once
in any jump, which struck many as nonsense (due to the conversion/storage problem
you mention above) but was, regardless, Canon.

Canon allows drop tanks. You can easily disallow them, especially if how jump drive
works IYTU makes them impossible. You're going to have to accept them if you want
your jump space theory to match canon.



Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:05:43 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:57:23 -0400 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
>Burns fuel out of tanker.
>Withdraws hose.
>Falls into jump point.
>
>The Freighter in this instance can perform a jump 6 with NO fuel.  
>Eliminate
>the need for jump fuel and you save 35% of the volume of your ship.
>
>I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm saying this falls into the 
>category
>of Jump Projectors which arrive around TL 21
>

Hmmmmmm, I hadn't considered that.  Interesting point.  This would seem
to make freighters more profitable, though it could leave you stranded. 
Ok, using the earlier comments by others about the presence of mass near
the jump point, if the mass near the jumping ship is more than negligable
(that is, more than that of an empty fuel tank) the jump point becomes
unstable, and will at best badly misjump the freighter, and at worst
destroy the freighter and the tanker.  The drop tanks must be no larger
than required for a single  jump, no more than half the maximum jump
capability of the vessel, or jump 1, whichever is more.  The tanks will
probably be burst by the stresses placed on them by the jump point's
opening and closing.  Now note, this still allows a ship to haul its jump
fuel in drop tanks, saving cargo space, but prevents large tankers and
re-fueling stations from being used this way.  This will make the
freighter's more profitable, while entering some risk in the process. 
Naval vessels, Free traders, player's ships, and lots of others will
still need to carry their own fuel, since they may not be able to get a
drop tank wherever their going.  As a side note, IIRC, in 2300 AD ships
that used MHD generators could also carry a fuel reconditioner (I can't
remember the actual term) that allowed spent fuel (i.e. O2 and H2 burned
into water) to be broken down, and re-used, with some losses.  The
reconditioning was usually run by solar panels.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #401
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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 402



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace 
Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 
Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Drop Tanks
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks
Droptanks, misjumps, fuelless ships, etc.
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Task System

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:04:04 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace 

> >  I happen to be less than thrilled with allowing accurate jumps to
> >interstellar space, and have some concerns about mechanisms that allow
> >the use of auxiliary or collapsible tanks. Regardless, you need to
> >cover those things to conform maximally with any edition of Traveller.
> >
> >
> 
> Didn't the adventure "Secret of the Ancients" require the players to jump to
> an empty hex in the Regina subsector?

Yup.  To a very specific point in interstellar space.  And the ship made a 
perfect jump, coming out to within a kilometer of the portal AIR.

Also, in The Traveller Adventure book, spare tankage was installed in the 
ship's cargo hold to allow it 2xJ1 in order to allow it to go off the Spinward 
Main, said jumps were made into interstellar space, the tanks were pumped into 
the main fuel tanks, the drive checks were made, and the ship jumped again.  
And during the tradewar segment of the adventure, a rendezvous point that 
Tukera Lines used was in deep space to avoid the nosey eyes of customs 
inspectors.

In one game I was in, we used a set of drop tanks to do something similar.  
The tanks were made for 2 jump-2's worth of fuel for the combined ship/tank 
configuration.  We jump-2'ed to the spot, detatched the half-empty tanks, set 
a radio beacon on them, took some *VERY* careful position and vector readings 
(about a day's worth to get 15 decimal point accuracy), then jump-3'd to the 
target system on full tanks.  Coming back, we revered the process.  Only took 
us 2 days to get to the tanks, and it saved us 4 weeks time.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:06:06 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The question becomes what the conditions inside the vessel are if they use
AG in this way.

If, however, they are using uniform G fields to produce these effects, then
it is good to know how the tides behave inside your ship near the grav plates.

The above demonstrates that if the grav plates generate an even remotely
uniform field, edge effects can be ignored.  Especially if they can pinch
the field edges to minimize edge effects, or if they extend it a few meters
beyond the ship's hull.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
In Alan Dean Foster's excellent book _Icerigger_, they start out in the bar
of a starliner. One of the heroes of the story is certain that he has found
a flaw in the artificial gravity of the liner - that the interference between the
nodes should allow him to jump off the bar and touch the ceiling. He is 
rather drunk, and is testing his theory by leaping off the bar and crashing
into bottle racks, patrons and ship security officers. Rather entertaining...

ObTrav: Remember that most of the grav plates on a starship don't have
to stay at 1G. Want to give someone motion sickness with a series of
minute grav field changes? Or gain some advantage with an unexpected
dose of Zero G?


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:10:03 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>
>
> If we let L become arbitrarily large, it will send the /(f^2+L^2) term to
> zero.
>

The original discussion was for a high L (length of ship) to D (distance from
plane) ratio and an extremely high gravitational force (comparable to black holes)

> As a result, for an infinite disc,
>
> Fy = 2 Pi G M s p
>
> where G is the gravitational constant, M is the mass of the object we are
> testing with, s is the thickness of the disc, and p is the density.
>
> On a finite disc, let us put a person of height h at the center.  What is
> the tidal force they feel?

> deltaFy = F(0)-F(h)
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ (1 - 1/(L^2)) - (1 - 1/(h^2+L^2)) ]
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ 1 - 1/(L^2) - 1 + 1/(h^2+L^2) ]
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ 1/(h^2+L^2) - 1/(L^2) ]
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ L^2/L^2(h^2+L^2) - (h^2+L^2)/(h^2+L^2)(L^2) ]
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ (L^2-(h^2+L^2))/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]
>
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]
>
> So, L is going to almost certainly dominate h, and thus the tidal force is
> proportional roughly to the h^2/L^4, so any L even remotely large w.r.t h
> is going to cause the tidal forces to be insignificant, compared to the
> rather large constant force you will be feeling form the disc.
>
> As an example, assume we are standing on an iron disc 7000 kilometers
> thick.  I am not quite 2m tall, and weight (mumble) kilos.  For the sake of
> calculation, lets just use 1 kg.
>
> G = 6.67e-11
> p = 7.87 g/cc = 7870 kg/m^3.
> s = 7e6
>
> Plug in the numbers
>
> Fy = 2 Pi 6.67e-11 1 7e6 7870 = 7.35 N.
>

Now plug in the numbers for the starship simulation. Density comparable to black
hole, Length = 51 meters (much longer for capital ships). Thickness of disk would
be a few meters (placing the gravity field "close" to the front of the ship.)

> This is pretty fierce.  This disc is producing on the order .7 gs.
>
> And now the tides?
>
> h = 2
> L = 2 meters (on a 7000 km thick disc!)
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]
>
> If we assume our finite disc is, say, just 2 meters wide, so we are on top
> of a very thin, very tall cylinder, we get:
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -2^2/(2^2 2^2+2^4) ]
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(4*4+16) ]
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(32) ]
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -.125 ] = .91875, or just under .1 gravs.
>
> This looks noticeable, but notice that we are about as far into the edge
> effect region as we can get.  Try this with a disc which is only as wide as
> it is thick:
>
> h = 2
> L = 3.5e6 (Diameter = 7e6, and radius is half that.)
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -2^2/((3.5e6)^2 2^2+(3.5e6)^4) ]
>
> deltaFy = 7.35 [ -4/(1.225e13 *4 + 1.5e26) ]
>
> deltaFy = 29.4/1.5e26
>
> deltaFy = 2e-25
>
> Or totally insignificant.  That L^4 term means that edge effects die down
> very, very quickly.  As a result, as soon as you let L get substantial
> w.r.t h, you get a uniform field.  If h is large w.r.t l, then this looks
> like a point source.
>

Wait a minute... before I argue this, did you agree or disagree with the planar
gravity field ripping apart a ship through tidal forces?

> >> This is quite germane, BTW, as Traveller has fields that are essentially
> >> constant, else they would need to have the decks point in the direction of
> >> thrust.
> >
> >They use contra grav to imitate this.  If your ship is flying like a boat in
> >water, acceleration is acting perpendicular to your ship's gravity ground.
>
> The question becomes what the conditions inside the vessel are if they use
> AG in this way.
>

Arbitrarily strange... The big problem is that if you generate a gravity field,
that field decreases in strength inversely with the square of the distance.
However, at distance=0 the field strength approaches infinity, which would
collapse anything at the gravity source.  Which requires that you put your gravity
source sufficiently far away that the tidal forces aren't too noticable. This ends
up being outside the ship. Which would pull the ship as well, leaving you back in
zero G's.  Unless you put a balancing gravity field on the other side to keep the
ship stationary, while pulling on the crew closer to one of the fields. This puts
an even greater tidal pull on the ship, but the ship can arbitrarily take it. This
is in effect using the spin habitat theory with gravity instead of centrifugal
force.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:16:52 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Law Enforcement (Was Re: Adv. Chargen) 

> Date:          Wed, 15 Apr 1998 00:07:30 +0100
> From:          Dom <dominicreynolds@dial.pipex.com>
> 
> Well a long time ago in a White Dwarf there was a Bounty Hunter article.
> It was usable on its own, but was intended that a character spent maybe a
> term or two in either the armed forces or the law enforcements before
> potentially getting a starship - Strontium Dog (2000AD) Bounty Hunter style.
> 
> I cannot remember the number of the White Dwarf at the moment or the name
> of the author.

Issue #70, _Dead or Alive!_, by Diane and Richard John.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 1998 13:48 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Misjumps IMTU

Misjumps

Misjumps, in my traveller universe and yours, need not be
frequent nor fatal.

I assumed that jumps take between 5 and 9 days, with 7 being
at the center of the bell curve.  However, misjumps or 
dangerously out-of-tune drives can take 10, 11, and more
days.  The referee can use that as a warning also.  "You
emerged out of jump after 13 days."  "13 DAYS?  Sounds like
our jump drive is about to go kaput."

I always assumed (I'm not sure why) that ships running with
refined fuel will not misjump unless the referee decides to
impose a misjump.

I then assumed that ships running on unrefined fuel had that
1 in 36 chance of misjump, but also a greater probability of
other things going wrong:

roll	event		action			cost
8	noise		systems check		none
9	noise		minor repairs		2d6 x Cr100   
10	jolt		minor replacements	2d6 x Cr1000   
11	fire		repair + replacement	2d6 x Cr10,000  
12	misjump		major repairs		2d6 x Cr100,000 

The Empty Hexes

Just suppose your crew jumps into an empty hex.  What will you
do?  The ship has no fuel; no fuel, no jump.  So something needs
to be tried.

The referee can expand this into a nail-biting scenario.  Jury-rig
system components to scan the hex for ice chunks, comets, whatever
possible to get a little bit of fuel.  Jumpstart the jump drive 
with less-than-enough fuel, use impossuble engineering feats to
get it to jump (or even misjump!) one more time, with the 
possibility of scrapping the drive system permanently.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:18:45 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> > IMTU, the opening of an entry point takes 5-10 seconds, enough time to
> > release the tanks.  The point then pulls the jump coils, with the ship,
> > into the point.
> >
> 
> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
> Burns fuel out of tanker.
> Withdraws hose.
> Falls into jump point.
> 
> The Freighter in this instance can perform a jump 6 with NO fuel.  Eliminate
> the need for jump fuel and you save 35% of the volume of your ship.

60%.  10% per jump number, remember?  And you'd *still* need a bit of fuel for 
the power plant even if it's just to keep the lights on so you don't stub your 
foot on something after dinner in jumpspace.  So, you wouldn't go *without* 
fuel, you just wouldn't take *all* of it with you.
 
> I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm saying this falls into the category
> of Jump Projectors which arrive around TL 21

There's also nothing in the Book 1/ High Guard / MegaTraveller rules that prohibit it, either.  Except, of course, you'd be stuck in the new system unless there's a tanker or drop tanks to get you home again.  This makes the system practical *only* for designated routes and you'd better love sex, cause if you misjump into deep space, yer screwed bigtime, comrade.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:32:07 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

At 12:48 PM 4/17/98 , Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>Misjumps
>The Empty Hexes
>
>Just suppose your crew jumps into an empty hex.  What will you
>do?  The ship has no fuel; no fuel, no jump.  So something needs
>to be tried.
>
>The referee can expand this into a nail-biting scenario.  Jury-rig
>system components to scan the hex for ice chunks, comets, whatever
>possible to get a little bit of fuel.  Jumpstart the jump drive 
>with less-than-enough fuel, use impossuble engineering feats to
>get it to jump (or even misjump!) one more time, with the 
>possibility of scrapping the drive system permanently.

Here's a thought.  Fire up the manuever drives and put the crew into the
emergency low berths.  What happens when they arrive back in port after
years of being listed as missing presumed dead?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:34:16 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Its the conversion of fuel into energy then dumping the tanks that bothers me.
> Pumping the fuel into your tanks after emptying them seems perfectly logical.
> There is an extrapolation you can make if you allow that.  i.e. You put a tether
> from your ship into a tanker jump using its fuel. The tanker stays behind and
> you still have a full tank at the other end.  In fact, you can greatly reduce the
> size of your ship by eliminating jump fuel altogether.  Just a jump drive and a
> hose going to a tanker/tender.  To me, that's a bad bad rule.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IIRC, several of the people in the earlier discussion were using tanker & hose
> setups in their Traveller campaigns just as you describe above. it seems that
> if you allow drop tanks, you also allow these tankers. It would be nice to carry
> another 6000 tons of cargo on your 10 kton j-6 fast freighter, wouldn't it?
>



> Joe Petit also wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I've heard of them but I wasn't here when they were discussed. I don't have a problem
> with tanks, its the conversion/energy storage thing that isn't working for me.  Since
> I'm trying to model my jump theory as close to canon as possible, I need to figure out
> how drop tanks fit in.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> CT Canon allows drop tanks. I really haven't investigated FF&S starship construction,
> but I'd be surprised if drop tanks were disallowed.

FFS only says that drop tanks can be released once empty.  It made no mention of special gear
to enable instantaneous conversion.

> The way that drop tanks work,
> letting you burn all your jump fuel at once, was a major point in a recent "how jump
> drives work" flame-fest - it was seen as proof that the ship used up all the fuel at once
> in any jump, which struck many as nonsense (due to the conversion/storage problem
> you mention above) but was, regardless, Canon.

Where can I find a reference to this as canon? (I've got MT and TNE)

>
>
> Canon allows drop tanks. You can easily disallow them, especially if how jump drive
> works IYTU makes them impossible. You're going to have to accept them if you want
> your jump space theory to match canon.
>

Drop tanks are fine.  Blowing your wad all at once bothers me. Thus I can accept the
canonical fact that drop tanks exist, but I'm still not sure that the implementation is
kosher.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:40:41 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
> war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
> involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
> Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
> group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
> might be reasonably expected to do?
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu

Ship adventures:

Run desparately needed supplies into a besieged system
Run commandos or resistance cadre into a system
Take wealthy refugees/nobles/merchants etc. away from the combat zone

Run critical supplies to industrial areas (sabateur aboard?)
Ship commandeered for humanitarian reasons (taking surplus of wounded back to
rear area hospitals?  poor refugees? etc...)
Ship commandeered for military reasons (taking POWs to holding areas, running
supplies, etc...)

ship arrives insystem when commerce raiders strike.
Ship is in system when Zho Battle force strikes

Character adventures:
Oops, wrong place at the wrong time.  Sky is full of Zhos.  Here's a gun,
there's a foxhole.
Characters stumble across a Zhodani sabatage plot.
Characters discover a Vargr advance scout - before it sends back critical data
on system defenses.
Characters discover a Noble who is making money on the black market - with
critical defense supplies (food, medicine, etc - the joy is in trying to accuse
a Noble before his peers...)

These are just bare plot lines, but that is usually what I take into a game with
me.  I tend to be very off the cuff, mostly because my players tend to surprise
me with the avenues of thought they develop!

Hope this helps!

douglas


- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:55:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Michael Croft wrote:

> At 12:48 PM 4/17/98 , Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> >Misjumps
> >The Empty Hexes
> >
> >Just suppose your crew jumps into an empty hex.  What will you
> >do?  The ship has no fuel; no fuel, no jump.  So something needs
> >to be tried.
> >
> >The referee can expand this into a nail-biting scenario.  Jury-rig
> >system components to scan the hex for ice chunks, comets, whatever
> >possible to get a little bit of fuel.  Jumpstart the jump drive
> >with less-than-enough fuel, use impossuble engineering feats to
> >get it to jump (or even misjump!) one more time, with the
> >possibility of scrapping the drive system permanently.
>
> Here's a thought.  Fire up the manuever drives and put the crew into the
> emergency low berths.  What happens when they arrive back in port after
> years of being listed as missing presumed dead?

I've got a character on this basis.  Jumped into a system with no means of
refueling, the whole crew took to the low births powered by solar collectors.
A thousand years later she was rescued, hers was the only low birth that hadn't
failed.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:57:55 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Where can I find a reference to this as canon? (I've got MT and TNE)

Drop tanks are fine.  Blowing your wad all at once bothers me. Thus I can accept the
canonical fact that drop tanks exist, but I'm still not sure that the implementation is
kosher.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Canonical sources would include High Guard (the CT ship design rules) and 
Traders & Gunboats, with the original Gazelle Close Escort (a ship that doesn't
ever do Jump-5 unless you can burn all the fuel in the tanks and drop them).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 13:32:03 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Michael Croft wrote:

> >Just suppose your crew jumps into an empty hex.  What will you
> >do?  The ship has no fuel; no fuel, no jump.  So something needs
> >to be tried.
> Here's a thought.  Fire up the manuever drives and put the crew into the
> emergency low berths.  What happens when they arrive back in port after
> years of being listed as missing presumed dead?

Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

james a clem wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:57:23 -0400 Joe Pettit 
> <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>
>> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
>> Burns fuel out of tanker.
>> Withdraws hose.
>> Falls into jump point.
>
>> I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm saying this falls into the 
>> category of Jump Projectors which arrive around TL 21
>
> Hmmmmmm, I hadn't considered that.  Interesting point.  This would seem
> to make freighters more profitable, though it could leave you stranded. 

> Ok, using the earlier comments by others about the presence of mass 
> near the jump point, if the mass near the jumping ship is more than 
> negligable (that is, more than that of an empty fuel tank) the jump 
> point becomes unstable, and will at best badly misjump the freighter, 
> and at worst destroy the freighter and the tanker.  The drop tanks must 
> be no larger than required for a single  jump, no more than half the 
> maximum jump capability of the vessel, or jump 1, whichever is more.  
> The tanks will probably be burst by the stresses placed on them by the 
> jump point's opening and closing.  

The only problem with this is that you then only need to use a tanker with
a (potentially disposable) fuel hose several hundred meters long. If the
fuel hose gets scragged, you're out a few 100 credits, a small price to
pay for the ability to carry *lots* more cargo. 

I honestly don't have any problem with ships being able to do this. PC
ships won't do this, because on the marginal trade routes you won't always
be able to guarantee there's a tanker on both ends.  Also, if you misjump
using this method, you die, since you can't refuel (though a good option
at that point it to have collapsible tanks stored in the cargo hold). 

Still, this is more an option for megaships going between A & B starports,
since D & E starports simply won't have such tankers, and many C class
ports won't either.  I've always assumed trade between A & B class ports
was basically run only by megacorps anyway.  This basically turns
tanker-based fueling into local color with no direct effect on the PCs. 
Why not allow it? 

On another, equally important note, PCs will never rely on tanker
refueling because using it makes it impossible to flee the planet just
ahead of the authorities or during an emergency (when the tankers will all
be servicing more important ships). 

As for jump projectors, the descriptions of them said that they operate at
range.  The ship doesn't need a jump drive either (*dramatically* lowering
ship-building costs) and it can be jumped at up to several 1,000 km away
(which has no real trading use, but makes a powerful weapon). 

At TL 21 megaships become shells with maneuver drives and really big cargo
holds. 

Regarding misjumps, that's one of the most *seriously* broken and outright
*stupid* rules in T4.  According to CT and MT, misjumps were impossible if
the ship was beyond 100 diameters, was using refined fuel (or was refining
its own fuel) and was up on its maintenance.  Having a normal 1 in 36
misjump chance as a part of normal operation is just silly. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: 17 Apr 1998 16:31 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Droptanks, misjumps, fuelless ships, etc.

Joe's post implies that you could have a ship that has only
a jump drive, but doesn't even need fuel, as long as you have
a launch platform with a fuel pump of some kind.  I have
some observations to make about this interesting point.

1. Drop tanks were experimental in the late 1000s, and were
   finally useful starting in the 1100s (or is that 1080s?).
   It took a couple decades or 3 before the innovation was
   marketed.

2. Fuelless designs would only be used between safe, well-
   built-up star systems -- say, some of the mains in the
   established sectors of the Imperium.  Noone would dare
   use them in the Spinward Marches... it's just too backwater,
   IMTU.

3. "Modern" Xboat systems, or rennovated systems, could take
   full advantage of this "feature" eventually, greatly
   increasing carrying capacity and perhaps starting up some
   kind of UPS service.  It would probably be a couple decades 
   after the innovation takes root commercially that this would be
   tried.  So, say the core Xboat system would start renovating
   itself around the year 1130... in the GURPS Imperium, of
   course.

4. Fuel prices for this pump-and-jump innovation (refined only)
   would be high.  Let's set it at Cr1000 per ton, a mere factor
   of 2.  Or we could use the same factor as that between 
   unrefined and refined fuel, i.e.

	fuel			Cr/ton
	unrefined		 100
	refined			 500
	refined pump-and-jump	2500

   Ouch!  Corporations would have company platforms, of course.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:39:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:

> Michael Croft wrote:
> 
> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.

The 30 day rating is at normal consumption.  Since low berths are
designed for emergency situations, it makes sense that they could
operate in a low-power mode.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:38:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Walter G. Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Where can I find a reference to this as canon? (I've got MT and TNE)
>
> Drop tanks are fine.  Blowing your wad all at once bothers me. Thus I can accept the
> canonical fact that drop tanks exist, but I'm still not sure that the implementation is
> kosher.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Canonical sources would include High Guard (the CT ship design rules) and
> Traders & Gunboats, with the original Gazelle Close Escort (a ship that doesn't
> ever do Jump-5 unless you can burn all the fuel in the tanks and drop them).

<Puzzled look>
The TNE Gazelle can jump-5 (sans tanks) with 1260 kL of fuel.  It can store 1450 kL
internally.  Did they REALLY change the rules that much?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:49:11 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

> <Puzzled look>
> The TNE Gazelle can jump-5 (sans tanks) with 1260 kL of fuel.  It can store 1450 kL
> internally.  Did they REALLY change the rules that much?

I don't know about the new rules, but I wouldn't take the Gazelle as
a pointer to earlier design rules.  If memory serves it carries a
particle accelerator barbette, and High Guard rules didn't allow
barbettes on ships of less than 1000 tons...

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:58:19 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >Greetings!
> >
> >Is Ken Bearden's task system online anywhere?  Or could someone
> >please forward me a copy?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Suz
>
> Got it;
>
> http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/Features/RuleAnal/KB20.html
>

Were you looking for KBv2.0?  Or were you looking for the recent idea I
posted?  In the case of the later, I've posted it again below.

- ---------------------------------------------------------
IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
- ---------------------------------------------------------

1:  STATS are added to the task roll at full value.
     STATS are modifiers that improve the task roll.

     EX:  If you have a 7 Dex, then you add 7 points to your roll.  If
     you are wounded, and your
     Dex is lowered to 5, then you only add 5 points to the roll.


2:  SKILLS give you DICE to roll on a task.

     EX:  If you have Pistol-2, you add 2 six siders to the roll.


3:  DIFFICULTY is a set of numbers as used in MT.

     EX:         Difficulty          Difficulty Numbers
                    -----------------------------------------
                    Very Easy                        5
                    Easy                                10
                    Average                          15
                    Difficult                          20
                    Formidable                     30
                    Staggering                       31+


       *difficulty numbers and difficulty categories are for illustration
purposes only.
         I have done no number crunching to support these values.
         I am only trying to explain the concept.



HERE'S AN EXAMPLE OF PLAY:

       Billy the Gunfighter
       DEX 7
       Pistol-2

Billy wants to fire his weapon at a bad guy.  He gets to roll 3D6+7.
Range to the target will determine difficulty.

Range to the target is medium for the weapon.  Let's say that works out
to be a average roll (again, these numbers and difficulties are for
illustration only.  I'm selling concept here, not a finished task
system).

Billy needs to roll 16+ to hit his target (he needs to beat the 15
target number).

He rolls 3D6+7.  He gets 1 D6 die because even the unskilled have a shot
at something.  He gets 2 D6 from his skill level.  And, he gets the 7
point modifier because of his Dex.

He rolls.  If he rolls over 15, he hits the target.  If he rolls below
the target number, he misses.



HERE'S HOW OTHER TASK CONCEPTS WILL FIT INTO THIS SYSTEM:
(all numbers below are for illustration only)

SPECTACULAR SUCCESS:  If Bill rolls 10 points over the target number, he
achieves SS.

SPECTACULAR FAILURE:  If Bill rolls 10 points below the target number,
he rolls a SF.

FATE DIE:  The first die Bill gets (not the 2 dice from his skill) is a
fate die.  This should be a different color from the rest.  If a 6 is
rolled on this die, he gets to roll the die again, adding to his total,
making it easier for him to roll SS.  If a 1 is rolled on this die, the
highest die from his roll is subtracted from the total, making it easier
for him roll SF.



WHAT DOES THIS TASK SYSTEM DO FOR TRAVELLER?

1.  It's very easy to learn and explain, as I have shown here.

2.  It works well within the Traveller genre.  People can see exactly
what their character's skills and attributes bring to the table.

3.  It resolves the STAT vs. SKILL debate with the T4 rules.

4.  It makes that pesky half die a thing of the past.  It is a moot
point now.

5.  It only uses 6 sided die--a prerequisite for Traveller in my book.

6.  It fits flawlessly into the existing Traveller character generation
system.

7.  All T4 rules will be an easy conversion to this system for a new
rule book.

8.  There is no multiplication or division (the KISS system, Keep It
Simple Stupid).

9.  Since STATS are added to the roll as modifiers, it is not a problem
to adjust a roll because the character is wounded.

10.  It would be easy to convert all of the work you have done with T4.1
to this system, and I believe that this system is superior to the one
currently used in T4.1.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #402
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 17 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 403



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks
RE: Misjumps IMTU
Tracking Bullets
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Droptanks, misjumps, fuelless ships, etc.
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjumps IMTU
RE: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Task System
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjumps IMTU
RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
RE: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Adventures during wartime
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:57:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

John R. Snead wrote:

> james a clem wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:57:23 -0400 Joe Pettit
> > <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> >
> >> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
> >> Burns fuel out of tanker.
> >> Withdraws hose.
> >> Falls into jump point.
> >
> >> I'm not saying this is impossible, I'm saying this falls into the
> >> category of Jump Projectors which arrive around TL 21
> >
> > Hmmmmmm, I hadn't considered that.  Interesting point.  This would seem
> > to make freighters more profitable, though it could leave you stranded.
>
> > Ok, using the earlier comments by others about the presence of mass
> > near the jump point, if the mass near the jumping ship is more than
> > negligable (that is, more than that of an empty fuel tank) the jump
> > point becomes unstable, and will at best badly misjump the freighter,
> > and at worst destroy the freighter and the tanker.  The drop tanks must
> > be no larger than required for a single  jump, no more than half the
> > maximum jump capability of the vessel, or jump 1, whichever is more.
> > The tanks will probably be burst by the stresses placed on them by the
> > jump point's opening and closing.
>
> The only problem with this is that you then only need to use a tanker with
> a (potentially disposable) fuel hose several hundred meters long. If the
> fuel hose gets scragged, you're out a few 100 credits, a small price to
> pay for the ability to carry *lots* more cargo.
>
> I honestly don't have any problem with ships being able to do this. PC
> ships won't do this, because on the marginal trade routes you won't always
> be able to guarantee there's a tanker on both ends.  Also, if you misjump
> using this method, you die, since you can't refuel (though a good option
> at that point it to have collapsible tanks stored in the cargo hold).
>
> Still, this is more an option for megaships going between A & B starports,
> since D & E starports simply won't have such tankers, and many C class
> ports won't either.  I've always assumed trade between A & B class ports
> was basically run only by megacorps anyway.  This basically turns
> tanker-based fueling into local color with no direct effect on the PCs.
> Why not allow it?
>

So this is allowed because its a "rare event" but my jump theory doesn't
because it's time discrepancies in "rare events" (InSystem jumps and jumps to
empty space) aren't a week?  Hmm... I'm feeling a double standard here...

> On another, equally important note, PCs will never rely on tanker
> refueling because using it makes it impossible to flee the planet just
> ahead of the authorities or during an emergency (when the tankers will all
> be servicing more important ships).
>
> As for jump projectors, the descriptions of them said that they operate at
> range.  The ship doesn't need a jump drive either (*dramatically* lowering
> ship-building costs) and it can be jumped at up to several 1,000 km away
> (which has no real trading use, but makes a powerful weapon).
>

I didn't know the jump projectors only worked out to thousand km... I thought
they sent you off to another system. I only saw a vague reference to them in
the MT rules, never saw the specifics.

> At TL 21 megaships become shells with maneuver drives and really big cargo
> holds.
>
> Regarding misjumps, that's one of the most *seriously* broken and outright
> *stupid* rules in T4.  According to CT and MT, misjumps were impossible if
> the ship was beyond 100 diameters, was using refined fuel (or was refining
> its own fuel) and was up on its maintenance.  Having a normal 1 in 36
> misjump chance as a part of normal operation is just silly.
>

I will add that TNE misjumps still put you in the right system (except for
aggravated catastrophic failures) They just screw up the timing and possibly
put you outside the 100 diameter limit. MT misjumps do a similar thing, but
there's a chance for ship destroyed.

Did T4 REALLY change the rules THAT much?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:17:23 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Misjumps IMTU

>
>I've got a character on this basis.  Jumped into a system with no means of
>refueling, the whole crew took to the low births powered by solar collectors.
>A thousand years later she was rescued, hers was the only low 
>birth that hadn't failed.
>
>
A she was carrying the Queen within her?  OOOPS!  Sorry!  Wrong movie . . .


Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:50:21 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Tracking Bullets

Much thanks to everyone on the TML who answered my questions
regarding the ability to track bullets and trajectories. I'd known 
about how we could follow artillery back, back did not realize
that we were truly that close to being able to pinpoint snipers and
the like. Thanks to the info, my player's lives are going to be
quite interesting this weekend <g>


**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:16:58 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
> Burns fuel out of tanker.
> Withdraws hose.
> Falls into jump point.

One approach would be to require the jump fuel to be consumed in a very,
very, very short time (making it difficult to work with a hose of any length),
and to introduce a significant chance that if anything is within a few hundred
meters of a ship going into jump Bad Things happen to the object (though
not to the ship) a small percentage of the time - tolerable Bad Things for a 
drop tank, but not for an (expensive, manned) tanker.

Also, operationally, especially for moderate-jump traffic it's not clear that
the tanker approach really would save you money, since it adds considerable
time and fiddling to rendezvous with the tanker, synchronize everything, etc. 
For comparison - one could save a considerable amount of weight (5-10%)
in modern airliners if they took off with nearly-empty fuel tanks and then
used mid-air refuelling to top up (you save landing gear weight and engine
lifetime.) However, it's hardly worth the extra complexity. Similarly, although
multi-stage rockets have enormous mass fraction advantages, it's generally
thought that even a huge, inefficient single-stage-to-orbit vehicle will be
much cheaper in the long run because you don't have to reassemble it after
every trip. These will probably restrict drop tanks to specialized long-haul
applications. (They're great for military use, though.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:21:13 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

>> >Just suppose your crew jumps into an empty hex.
>> Here's a thought.  Fire up the manuever drives and put the crew into the
>> emergency low berths.  What happens when they arrive back in port after
>> years of being listed as missing presumed dead?

>Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
>After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.

These days (TNE and T4) power plants generally have about a years worth of
fuel onboard. Since the low berths take very little power compared to everything
else, this generally means that they can be run for thousands of years. 
You can't run the maneuver drive this long, of course...though (also T4) 
maneuver drives don't work well in free space/empty hexes. Best bet is to 
use the laser comm (or a laser turret) to send a signal to a nearby system
and then climb in the low berths. IMTU (if I had a TU, which I don't) 
a major duty for the ISS is running automatic monitor stations in every
system, which look for laser comm signals and record them for when they
get checked by a passing scout (including detached-duty scouts), which can
then go perform a rescue or find a bigger ship for a rescue. 

I still agree that T4's 1-in-36 per normal jump misjump rate is a mistake,
though.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:22:34 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> 
> > <Puzzled look>
> > The TNE Gazelle can jump-5 (sans tanks) with 1260 kL of fuel.  It can store 1450 kL
> > internally.  Did they REALLY change the rules that much?
> 
> I don't know about the new rules, but I wouldn't take the Gazelle as
> a pointer to earlier design rules.  If memory serves it carries a
> particle accelerator barbette, and High Guard rules didn't allow
> barbettes on ships of less than 1000 tons...

Funny, I can't find that rule in 2nd Edition HG...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:29:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Droptanks, misjumps, fuelless ships, etc.

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Joe's post implies that you could have a ship that has only
> a jump drive, but doesn't even need fuel, as long as you have
> a launch platform with a fuel pump of some kind.  I have
> some observations to make about this interesting point.
>
>
> 2. Fuelless designs would only be used between safe, well-
>    built-up star systems -- say, some of the mains in the
>    established sectors of the Imperium.  Noone would dare
>    use them in the Spinward Marches... it's just too backwater,
>    IMTU.
>

They'd use the pump and jump wherever possible, but they'd just keep
their internal tank filled.

> 4. Fuel prices for this pump-and-jump innovation (refined only)
>    would be high.  Let's set it at Cr1000 per ton, a mere factor
>    of 2.  Or we could use the same factor as that between
>    unrefined and refined fuel, i.e.
>
>         fuel                    Cr/ton
>         unrefined                100
>         refined                  500
>         refined pump-and-jump   2500
>
>    Ouch!  Corporations would have company platforms, of course.

Only corporations would run the fuelless ships, although they might
sublet their fuel.  But if the corporation ships unrefined fuel (water
or skimmed gas) to the refueling platform, then refines it there, they
could easilly get by with a marginal increase in price.  They're
already  getting free fuel or a multiple of 5 if they buy it.  I'd maybe
charge for the severed hose. X5 is prohibitively expensive.

Here's another possibility and gross abortion of the drop  tank theory.
If you can convert that much matter that fast, what's to prevent people
from using it as a weapon. Situation: Ship drops tube into gas giant,
sucks off the atmosphere converting it into energy which is then focused
at enemy. Yes, it is unrefined, but you're not jumping so there's no
chance for a misjump. Now all that raw power gets directed into a planet
busting weapon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:42:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

> 
> 
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > Wes Morris writes:
> > >>misjump would be to a map hex with no star system. Life expectency for
> > >>traveller's just became 36 months.
> > >>
> > >>I know I must be misunderstanding something. What is it?
> >
> 
> Err... umm... I think I must be out of the loop but TNE misjumps only affect your
> time to target and maybe the distance.   Only an aggravated catastrophic failure
> results in you ending up in the wrong system.
> 
> 

yeah, but the question was regarding the rule in the T4 rulebook, which is
BROKEN.

Misjumps _used_ to mostly be(in increasing rarity) anywhere from extra or
fewer days in jumpspace, followed by jump drives being
damaged, to jump drives being destroyed, to popping off 1d6*6 random
hexes, to simply vanishing forever.

Agreed, the level of failure as stated in the rulebook is unusably high.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:28:31 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Alan Peery wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> > Michael Croft wrote:
> >
> > Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
> > After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>
> The 30 day rating is at normal consumption.  Since low berths are
> designed for emergency situations, it makes sense that they could
> operate in a low-power mode.

That does make sense. However, I find it difficult to believe that a low-power mode
would enable the low berths to be operationals for the many decades it would take to
reach a solar system.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:22:26 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)

> Walter G. Smith posted:
>
>ObTrav: Remember that most of the grav plates on a starship don't have
>to stay at 1G. Want to give someone motion sickness with a series of
>minute grav field changes? Or gain some advantage with an unexpected
>dose of Zero G?

It has long been a favorite tactic of some TMLers (myself included) to
rapidly cycle a ship's gravity from zero to maximum Gs when dealing
with unwanted boarders/stowaways. The higher the G-comp rating of
the ship the more dangerous for intruders this becomes. Of course,
getting out the dents can be a bit of work.

For those campaigns in which the grav generators can't do this or
would be damaged, a more acceptable way would be to turn the
G-comp off for the "compromised" area(s) and let the ship's pilot
indulge himself for about 5 minutes.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 14:57:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
>> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
>> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
>> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
>> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
>> >>
>> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
>> >
>> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
>> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
>> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
>> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
>>
>> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
>> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
>> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
>> of the plate, nothing else.
>
> Distance from front of ship to plate = D
> Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
>
> Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
> Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2

Nope. The field from the plate doesn't *have* an inverse square
component. That's what I've been trying to tell you! Until you get far
enough away that edge effects start to interfere, the gravity is
*constant* regardless of distance. 



> At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
> rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.  

No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
field of the form:

	A=k*G*Density*thickness

Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.

> Unless
> you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
> from it, you'll always have this problem.

Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
to the same amount regardless of distance!

I don't recall enough calculus to run through the problem, but it's a
first year calculus problem, just like showing that the net attraction
inside a hollow sphere is zero, and that the attraction inside a solid
sphere drops off linearly with the distance from the surface as you
approach the center.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 17:41:49 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

> Kenneth Bearden wrote:
>
>Were you looking for KBv2.0?  Or were you looking for the recent idea I
>posted?  In the case of the later, I've posted it again below.
>
>- ---------------------------------------------------------
>IMPROVED TASK SYSTEM FOR TRAVELLER
>- ---------------------------------------------------------

You just *had* to come out with this _after_ I dropped $100+
on GURPS...(sigh)    :-)

>FATE DIE:  The first die Bill gets (not the 2 dice from his skill) is a
>fate die.

Could you explain your reasoning for this die? I like your system
but I'm just curious.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:43:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Now plug in the numbers for the starship simulation. Density
> comparable to black hole, Length = 51 meters (much longer for capital
> ships). Thickness of disk would be a few meters (placing the gravity
> field "close" to the front of the ship.)

But how *wide* is the disk? :-)

> Wait a minute... before I argue this, did you agree or disagree with the 
> planar gravity field ripping apart a ship through tidal forces?

With an infinite plane, there *aren't* any tidal forces.

> Arbitrarily strange... The big problem is that if you generate a
> gravity field, that field decreases in strength inversely with the
> square of the distance. 

Again, only from a *point* source. By using multiple sources in the
proper arrangement, you can arbitrarily reduce tidal forces (check Dr.
Robert Forward's article on antigravity in his book "Indistinguishable
From Magic" for several design of tidal compensators)

Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
*completely* over a volume. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 15:30:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Howdy!
>
> Leonard replied to someone who replied to him:
>> In mail you write:
>> 
>> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
>> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
>> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
>> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
>> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
>> >>
>> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
>> >
>> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
>> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
>> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
>> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
>> 
>> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
>> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
>> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
>> of the plate, nothing else.
>> 
> Leonard posits a flat plate of infinite dimension. While this is handy
> for the rest of his argument, it does not yield a useful real-world result.
>
> The response overlooks this peculiar condition, appearing to assume a finite
> plate.
>
> A finite plate of a size to have a meaningful gravitational field would also
> have problems with avoiding self-collapse into a lower gravitational
> energy state, namely an approximation of a sphere.

If it's braced well (say with diamond) you would be able to get a
*very* noticeable field, and it would be uniform over a reasonable
volume. 

The inverse square law applies to *point* sources. Calculus shows that
a sphere of uniform density can be treated as if all its mass was
concentrated at the center. So can a sphere composed of spherical
shells of differing but uniform density. 

But with multiple sources, it's possible to achieve an aribtrarily
uniform field over an arbitary volume of space. 

The example of an infinite plane is merely the easiest case to
calculate. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:40:54 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.

Of course you could try desparate measures.  You start
the ship on a vector that will get you to the nearest
habitated system.  You then get the computer to, after
all are in the low berths, to open the ship to turn cool
the whole ship with liquid hydrogen as you turn the reactor
off.  You then hope the cold of space keeps you
frozen and some very good doctors to revive you if and
when you are arrive at the system and are found.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:20:15
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

>Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 11:06:00 -0500
>From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>Subject: RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
>
>At 10:00 AM 4/17/98 , Chris Jones wrote:
>>    A 1 in 72 chance would almost certainly rule out the use of larger
>>ships ( such as those 500,000+ ton freighters everyone's so hot for ).
>>Who would spend hundreds of MCr ( even GCr? ) on a ship that can only be
>>expected to make 72 jumps before it vanishes?
>>    16th century Spanish ships didn't represent quite that level of
>>investment.
>
>Good point.  I hadn't considered the relative differences in the cost of
>the ship to the cost of the cargo.  Anybody done any comparisons of the
>numbers on this?  How far off of that model are traveller ships?
>

Traveller ships have most of their costs locked up in the hull. Historical
16th/17th ships had crew costs as a much higher percentage of operating
revenue than Traveller ships do (ref Andrews 'Elizabethan Privateering').

>OTOH, we're assuming that the ship doesn't carry enough fuel to make two
>jumps.  I'd expect that larger ships would.  I don't know all the versions
>of the rules.  Is this allowed under all of them?  This makes the odds of a
>catastrophic misjump much higher.  Given that a ship which has just
>misjumped has the capability of another Jump-1 and that the density of
>stars is approx 1/2 per parsec, this gives us the odds that a ship cannot
>get to a planet as something like 1 in 4608 jumps (1 in 36 to misjump, 1 in
>128 that the target hex and all hexes within Jump-1 are unable to refuel
>the ship).  A ship capable of a jump-2 after a misjump has a 1 in 1.2
>*billion* chance of being unable to reach a star system 1 in (6^2 *2^25).
>These odds make misjumps a problem only for ships which don't carry extra
>fuel.  I'd guess that along the mains, the big ships would be required to
>do so.

The question is it cheaper to tie up 10-20% of your cargo space up as
reserve tankage, or to make money freighting cargo in that space and buy
misjump insurance ?

Finally, to get on one of my favorite soapboxes, I believe the Long Night
was caused by a rise in misjump chances. This blew the financial system out
of whack, as far more ships and cargos were lost than the insurers could
cover. The higher misjumps led to interstellar trade, transport and travel
becoming less popular, and the Long NIght took hold.

Once misjump chances went back to normal, everyone realised that star
travel was profitable again, and went back to building starships.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:59:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: RE: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace)

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Smart, David wrote:
 
> It has long been a favorite tactic of some TMLers (myself included) to
> rapidly cycle a ship's gravity from zero to maximum Gs when dealing
> with unwanted boarders/stowaways. The higher the G-comp rating of
> the ship the more dangerous for intruders this becomes. Of course,
> getting out the dents can be a bit of work.

Ahhhh....'Grav Pong!' Beloved of anti-hijack programs and Virus alike.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 19:22:35 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

David,

How about spies (for either side).  Couriers .... taking that 
sensitive encoded message across enemy lines .... or simply merchants 
that get caught up in the war while trying to make a living?  Maybe 
they have to figure out how to get the goods through the "restricted 
zones" or past the fighting.  

.... just a couple of "instantaneous thoughts" ....
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:31:40 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime

"Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> writes:
>I believe that most sinkings in WWII took place at some distance
>from the various shipping ports.

I don't know about most, but a distribution map I saw last month (can't
remember where) showed the largest clusters along the Eastern Seaboard.
The run from Texas around Florida was particularly dangerous. German
U-Boats used to wait for ships to be siloetted against against a city's
lights and sink them, then vanish before the Navy could respond. (The
British Admiralty was aghast that American never enforced coastal
blackouts when it was costing them ships - at one time more ships were
being lost off the coast than in the middle of the Atlantic!) Also,
coastal convoys weren't implemented for quite a while, and not completely
at all.

As in Traveller, there are many routes a convoy could take across the
ocean, but relatively few in the more restricted coastal waters. Add in
nice spotting conditions, and it was good hunting.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:33:30 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I specified a
> >> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is *constant*
> >> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance from
> >> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
> >> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the plate!
> >> >>
> >> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
> >> >
> >> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
> >> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
> >> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
> >> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
> >>
> >> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
> >> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
> >> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
> >> of the plate, nothing else.
> >
> > Distance from front of ship to plate = D
> > Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
> >
> > Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
> > Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2
>
> Nope. The field from the plate doesn't *have* an inverse square
> component. That's what I've been trying to tell you! Until you get far
> enough away that edge effects start to interfere, the gravity is
> *constant* regardless of distance.
>
> > At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial will
> > rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.
>
> No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
> field of the form:
>
>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>
> Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
> the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.

So you're saying that this plane will accelerate the universe towards it?  If
gravity doesn't drop off, then you've just accelerated the universe... that seems
slightly less than possible.

>
>
> > Unless
> > you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are equidistant
> > from it, you'll always have this problem.
>
> Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
> the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
> to the same amount regardless of distance!

Actually I did. I can't give you the exact formula but since all points yielded
higher gravity at D than at D+L then the sum would be greater.  However as the
plane reaches infinity, that sum approaches infinite.  Since both sums would
approach infinity then (technically) both D and D+L would accelerate to the plane
at infinite speed. I don't think this was the intention.  I think the intention was
to generate a finite acceleration on point D which would be equal to the finite
acceleration on point D+L.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #403
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 18 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 404



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Jumpspace
Rafm Address (for miniatures)
Re: Task System
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Water-bullets
Re: Jumpspace
[T98#397] Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Drop tanks
Misjump Mathematics
Misjump Mathematics
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace) 
Re: Misjumps IMTU 
Re: Drop Tanks 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:40:10 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

> Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
> *completely* over a volume.

Show me.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:40:31 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Rafm Address (for miniatures)

Rafm Corporation
155B Copernicus Blvd
Brantford, Ontario
Canada
N3P 1N4

I can't remember their phone number, but directory assistance will find it
for you.


I don't know how many models they have left, so you should probably
enquire before ordering.  If you are really stocking up you might want to
ask about a quantity discount.

Americans, remember that we use Canadian dollars up here!  Although with
the current exchange rate, I'm certain Rafm wouldn't mind it if you paid
in US funds  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 20:43:37 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Task System

Smart, David wrote:

> You just *had* to come out with this _after_ I dropped $100+
> on GURPS...(sigh)    :-)

First off, let me STRESS that this new task system I've proposed for
Traveller is not finalized.  I based it on the Star Wars D6 system, and I do
think it will work well with Traveller.

BUT, (and this is a BIG BUT), I haven't done any play testing with the
system and I haven't done any analysis on the target numbers.  I just took
these from Star Wars.

What needs to be done to finish the system?

The target numbers for the difficulties need to be looked at for Traveller.
This task system is a combination of Traveller ideals and the D6 system
(which borrows heavily from Traveller too--so it's a two-way relationship).

If you get the target numbers worked out, I think this task system will be
perfect for T4.1.


> >FATE DIE:  The first die Bill gets (not the 2 dice from his skill) is a
> >fate die.
>
> Could you explain your reasoning for this die? I like your system
> but I'm just curious.

I took it from Star Wars' Wild Die.  It adds a lot to the game--mainly
making it possible for SS and SF to be thrown.  The way it stands, it is
very hard to throw these.

Take it out if you don't like it, and just throw straight dice (but if you
do that, you may want to adjust the SS/SF rules).

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 21:01:29 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Greetings, one and all. I wanted to throw the following
in on the subject of drop tanks.

JTAS #4 is the edition in which the Gazelle-class Close
Escort was first introduced. The following paragraph is
a direct quote from JTAS #4 regarding the Gazelle's
drop tanks.

"L-HYD TANKS

The two longitudinal fuel tanks of the Gazelle class
ship are engineered to be droppable in extreme
circumstances. The ship has high capacity accumulators
in its jump drive, and can completely burn its fuel
prior to jump, storing the energy while the tanks are
then jettisoned. The decrease in tonnage for the ship
results in greater efficiency, and the ship can jump
farther (J-6). Additional fuel tankage within the ship
allows maneuver, but the tanks must be replaced before
the ship can again jump."

Its specifications under CT rules are listed as:
Jump-4    Maneuver-4    Power Plant-4
400 tons disp.

The article's author and ship designer: Marc Miller

That's about as canon as you can get...

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:13:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

warlock@imagin.net wrote:

> Greetings, one and all. I wanted to throw the following
> in on the subject of drop tanks.
>
> JTAS #4 is the edition in which the Gazelle-class Close
> Escort was first introduced. The following paragraph is
> a direct quote from JTAS #4 regarding the Gazelle's
> drop tanks.
>
> "L-HYD TANKS
>
> The two longitudinal fuel tanks of the Gazelle class
> ship are engineered to be droppable in extreme
> circumstances. The ship has high capacity accumulators
> in its jump drive, and can completely burn its fuel
> prior to jump, storing the energy while the tanks are
> then jettisoned. The decrease in tonnage for the ship
> results in greater efficiency, and the ship can jump
> farther (J-6). Additional fuel tankage within the ship
> allows maneuver, but the tanks must be replaced before
> the ship can again jump."
>
> Its specifications under CT rules are listed as:
> Jump-4    Maneuver-4    Power Plant-4
> 400 tons disp.
>
> The article's author and ship designer: Marc Miller
>
> That's about as canon as you can get...

Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
when I melt it into a glass ball....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 18:59:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Water-bullets

In mail you write:

>
>>> >     In the past couple of months someone on the list 
> mentioned an attempt to  > use water as a bullet by hyper 
> accelerating it?  Can someone detail this for  > me?  The 
> subject came up with one of my players and now we're both 
> very  > curious! ;)   <<
>
> The game _Paranoia_ has an "ice gun" which uses slivers of 
> frozen water as bullets, though I dunno how it accelerates 
> them. Could you dissolve enough ferrous stuff in water to 
> create ice gauss ammo? 

At a high enough intensity (several Tesla) even water is affected by
magnetic fields. That's how they did the "levitating frog" bit that
made the news about six months back.

Or you could use compressed gas for propellant. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:56:19 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 7:33 PM -0500 4/17/98, Joe Pettit wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
>> field of the form:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>>
>> Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
>> the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.
>
>So you're saying that this plane will accelerate the universe towards it?  If
>gravity doesn't drop off, then you've just accelerated the universe...
>that seems
>slightly less than possible.

This is a mathematical construct and would be impossible to build for
a number of reasons... this being one of them.  Actually, what it would
do is accelerate everything toward it and it would accelerate toward
everything.  Momentum would still be conserved.  I'm not sure, though,
how something with infinite mass would exist much less move.  Anyway,
these theoretical constructs aren't useful if taken literally.  What's
more useful is how it approximates a real life situation.  I have no
idea where this started, but the infinite plate model is useful anytime
you have a sheet of something and you are concerned with how the sheet's
gravity affects objects which are a) much smaller than the sheet and
b) much closer to the sheet itself than the edges.  In these cases,
the gravitational field will be essentially uniform.  As you get
closer to the edges or you get further away, the sheet will act more
like a point mass.

>> > Unless
>> > you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are
>>equidistant
>> > from it, you'll always have this problem.
>>
>> Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
>> the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
>> to the same amount regardless of distance!
>
>Actually I did. I can't give you the exact formula but since all points
>yielded
>higher gravity at D than at D+L then the sum would be greater.  However as the
>plane reaches infinity, that sum approaches infinite.  Since both sums would
>approach infinity then (technically) both D and D+L would accelerate to
>the plane
>at infinite speed. I don't think this was the intention.  I think the
>intention was
>to generate a finite acceleration on point D which would be equal to the
>finite
>acceleration on point D+L.

If you did not get a uniform gravity field for an infinite sheet, then
you did the math wrong.  This is a well known example and the result isn't
really in question.  An infinite sheet doesn't have infinite gravity, it
has a gravity as expressed above.
Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:34:15 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#397] Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

On Thu, 16 Apr 1998 16:18:11 -0400, Joe Pettit
<jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>V.A.G wrote:

>> Vic&Amy Canada wrote:

>> > >I would therefore appreciate it if you'd hit Freelance Traveller
>> > >with every version of every browser you can lay your hands on,
>> > >and let me know what the results are.
>> Not bad on NS 3.x Gold and NS 4.04 either

>For anybody else testing, try reducing your window size to about 400x600
>or smaller.  Maybe 320x200.  Then you should see the aforementioned
>problem.  Which isn't a problem really, just that somebody is looking at
>the page outside of its parameters. Try including a "Best viewed in
>800x600 mode" disclaimer.

Noted.  I think 640x400 (EGA res) should work OK, and there are
reports that 80x25 (text-only <g>) is acceptable.  Smaller than
640x400 is likely to be problematical.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 23:30:12 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

I didn't get the email finished before it got sent last time...

At 7:33 PM -0500 4/17/98, Joe Pettit wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
>> field of the form:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>>
>> Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
>> the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.
>
>So you're saying that this plane will accelerate the universe towards it?  If
>gravity doesn't drop off, then you've just accelerated the universe...
>that seems
>slightly less than possible.

This is a mathematical construct and would be impossible to build for
a number of reasons... this being one of them.  Actually, what it would
do is accelerate everything toward it and it would accelerate toward
everything.  Momentum would still be conserved.  I'm not sure, though,
how something with infinite mass would exist much less move.  Anyway,
these theoretical constructs aren't useful if taken literally.  What's
more useful is how it approximates a real life situation.  I have no
idea where this started, but the infinite plate model is useful anytime
you have a sheet of something and you are concerned with how the sheet's
gravity affects objects which are a) much smaller than the sheet and
b) much closer to the sheet itself than the edges.  In these cases,
the gravitational field will be essentially uniform.  As you get
closer to the edges or you get further away, the sheet will act more
like a point mass.

>>
>>
>> > Unless
>> > you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are
>>equidistant
>> > from it, you'll always have this problem.
>>
>> Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
>> the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
>> to the same amount regardless of distance!
>
>Actually I did. I can't give you the exact formula but since all points
>yielded
>higher gravity at D than at D+L then the sum would be greater.  However as the
>plane reaches infinity, that sum approaches infinite.  Since both sums would
>approach infinity then (technically) both D and D+L would accelerate to
>the plane
>at infinite speed. I don't think this was the intention.  I think the
>intention was
>to generate a finite acceleration on point D which would be equal to the
>finite
>acceleration on point D+L.


Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a uniform
gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields vary
inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the same.
Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane charge
though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:43:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>
>
> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a uniform
> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields vary
> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the same.
> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane charge
> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.

I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a plate, all points
will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about two points at
different distances.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 00:06:23 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 11:43 PM -0500 4/17/98, Joe Pettit wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a uniform
>> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
>> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields vary
>> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the same.
>> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane charge
>> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.
>
>I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a plate, all
>points
>will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about two
>points at
>different distances.

The gravitational field is constant at all points, no matter where they
are located with respect to the plane.  The ship would experience no
tidal forces because all parts of it would be in the same field.  The
distance from the plate is not a factor...  It's a counterintuitive
result, but it's true.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 17 Apr 1998 22:11:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop tanks

>Canon allows drop tanks. You can easily disallow them, especially if how
jump drive
>works IYTU makes them impossible. You're going to have to accept them if
you want
>your jump space theory to match canon.

  As Hans has pointed out, it's only canon after 1100-ish and in the
Imperium, and thus they can be ignored in many places and eras.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:22:12 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Misjump Mathematics

At 3:28 PM -0600 04/17/1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>Alan Peery wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>
>> > Michael Croft wrote:
>> >
>> > Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts
>>30 days.
>> > After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>>
>> The 30 day rating is at normal consumption.  Since low berths are
>> designed for emergency situations, it makes sense that they could
>> operate in a low-power mode.
>
>That does make sense. However, I find it difficult to believe that a
>low-power mode
>would enable the low berths to be operationals for the many decades it
>would take to
>reach a solar system.

Assume we need to travel 1 parsec to get to a launch spot.
That's 3.08* 10^16m
Our 1G drive acceleration is 10m/s^2
The time formula isT=2(sqrt(D/A))
If we could accelerate constantly, we would accelerate halfway there and
then slow down.  We can't due to fuel restrictions and lightspeed
restrictions, so we'll look at a different approach.  We accelerate for 15
days, put everything into emergency shutdown mode except one sensor and the
low berths, which are in an extremely low power consumption mode.  16 light
minutes from the destination, breaking initiates.  Using Newtonian physics
(there may be some advantage to going a mesurable fraction of lightspeed),
you should arrive 754 years after departure.  Knowing that this is a bad
idea, you may choose to acclerate for 30 days and hope they can slow you
down when you get there, 377 years later.

If you pull 6Gs for 30 days, you can get there in under 63 years.

I'm back to saying that the added expense or emergency fuel is not
unreasonable in all except the smallest of ships.  Insurance is all well
and good for shippers, but the crew isn't going to fly them if they expect
to die in them.

Now here's a thought: If the chance of misjump is as high as stated and
there are many ships travelling in an area, it might be worthwhile for
individuals to start a career as a salvage crew.  If a ship is more than 2
months late, listed as missing, presumed misjumped, go looking in all the
empty hexes for it.  Carry fuel for three jumps and a prize crew. Check
each hex and take home ships.

If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
will be 140 ships large.

Hey, there's a way to escape a misjump!  Get the dregs of fuel from all the
dead ships!  Creepily entering the 1000 year old ship whose crew died here
in dispair, you find that this one too, has no fuel.  It does however have
a guardian robot...
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:22:12 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Misjump Mathematics

At 3:28 PM -0600 04/17/1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>Alan Peery wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>
>> > Michael Croft wrote:
>> >
>> > Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts
>>30 days.
>> > After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>>
>> The 30 day rating is at normal consumption.  Since low berths are
>> designed for emergency situations, it makes sense that they could
>> operate in a low-power mode.
>
>That does make sense. However, I find it difficult to believe that a
>low-power mode
>would enable the low berths to be operationals for the many decades it
>would take to
>reach a solar system.

Assume we need to travel 1 parsec to get to a launch spot.
That's 3.08* 10^16m
Our 1G drive acceleration is 10m/s^2
The time formula isT=2(sqrt(D/A))
If we could accelerate constantly, we would accelerate halfway there and
then slow down.  We can't due to fuel restrictions and lightspeed
restrictions, so we'll look at a different approach.  We accelerate for 15
days, put everything into emergency shutdown mode except one sensor and the
low berths, which are in an extremely low power consumption mode.  16 light
minutes from the destination, breaking initiates.  Using Newtonian physics
(there may be some advantage to going a mesurable fraction of lightspeed),
you should arrive 754 years after departure.  Knowing that this is a bad
idea, you may choose to acclerate for 30 days and hope they can slow you
down when you get there, 377 years later.

If you pull 6Gs for 30 days, you can get there in under 63 years.

I'm back to saying that the added expense or emergency fuel is not
unreasonable in all except the smallest of ships.  Insurance is all well
and good for shippers, but the crew isn't going to fly them if they expect
to die in them.

Now here's a thought: If the chance of misjump is as high as stated and
there are many ships travelling in an area, it might be worthwhile for
individuals to start a career as a salvage crew.  If a ship is more than 2
months late, listed as missing, presumed misjumped, go looking in all the
empty hexes for it.  Carry fuel for three jumps and a prize crew. Check
each hex and take home ships.

If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
will be 140 ships large.

Hey, there's a way to escape a misjump!  Get the dregs of fuel from all the
dead ships!  Creepily entering the 1000 year old ship whose crew died here
in dispair, you find that this one too, has no fuel.  It does however have
a guardian robot...
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
John R. Snead wrote:

>> I honestly don't have any problem with ships being able to do this. PC
>> ships won't do this, because on the marginal trade routes you won't 
>> always be able to guarantee there's a tanker on both ends.  Also, if 
>> you misjump using this method, you die, since you can't refuel (though 
>> a good option at that point it to have collapsible tanks stored in the 
>>  cargo hold).
>>
>> Still, this is more an option for megaships going between A & B 
>> starports, since D & E starports simply won't have such tankers, and 
>> many C class ports won't either.  I've always assumed trade between A 
>> & B class ports was basically run only by megacorps anyway.  This 
>> basically turns tanker-based fueling into local color with no direct 
>> effect on the PCs.  Why not allow it?
>
> So this is allowed because its a "rare event" but my jump theory doesn't
> because it's time discrepancies in "rare events" (InSystem jumps and 
> jumps to empty space) aren't a week?  Hmm... I'm feeling a double 
> standard here...

Not rare at all, I'd expect their use to be *very* common between large,
well travelled Class A ports.  However, I don't see their use having much
of an impact on PC ships (other than reinforceing the fact that small
trading vessels have no hope of making a living trading between large
Class A & B ports).  However, out on the fringes among the Class C & D
ports I'd expect jump tankers to be a rare sight indeed. 

> I didn't know the jump projectors only worked out to thousand km... I 
> thought they sent you off to another system. I only saw a vague 
> reference to them in the MT rules, never saw the specifics.

In MT there were TL 21 ship to ship weapons, you used them to force an
enemy ship to jump, or even misjump.  I'd expect jump projectors which
worked at much shorter range (like <100 meters) and with a longer warm-up
time (ie not useful as weapons to be several TL lower. 

MT jump dampers either protected you from these things, or even prevented
enemy ships from jumping (again at considerable range). 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 04:56:08 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Artificial Gravity (was re: Jumpspace) 

> > Walter G. Smith posted:
> >
> >ObTrav: Remember that most of the grav plates on a starship don't have
> >to stay at 1G. Want to give someone motion sickness with a series of
> >minute grav field changes? Or gain some advantage with an unexpected
> >dose of Zero G?
> 
> It has long been a favorite tactic of some TMLers (myself included) to
> rapidly cycle a ship's gravity from zero to maximum Gs when dealing
> with unwanted boarders/stowaways. The higher the G-comp rating of
> the ship the more dangerous for intruders this becomes. Of course,
> getting out the dents can be a bit of work.

IIRC, gravplates in CT/MT could go fro zero to 2G's.  And a smart engineer. 
with a bit of tinkering, could probably make them reverse polarity.  Thus, you 
could concieveably get a 'pingpong' effect:  2G slam into the ceiling, 
followed by a 2G slam into the floor, repeat as necessary.  Now you know why 
everybody heads for Engineering first, and THEN to the bridge when they board.

And speaking from experience, bones won't dent metal plates unless they're 
tissue-paper thin.  The problem won't be getting the dents out, it'll be 
cleaning up the debris and *maybe* repainting a bit.

> For those campaigns in which the grav generators can't do this or
> would be damaged, a more acceptable way would be to turn the
> G-comp off for the "compromised" area(s) and let the ship's pilot
> indulge himself for about 5 minutes.

Heheh.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:09:52 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU 

> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30 days.
> > After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
> 
> Of course you could try desparate measures.  You start
> the ship on a vector that will get you to the nearest
> habitated system.  You then get the computer to, after
> all are in the low berths, to open the ship to turn cool
> the whole ship with liquid hydrogen as you turn the reactor
> off.  You then hope the cold of space keeps you
> frozen and some very good doctors to revive you if and
> when you are arrive at the system and are found.

Everybody's in a low berth, so you don't *need* power to life support, the 
gravity plates, ad nauseum.  That extends your power plant fuel to start with. 
 How much energy does running just the low berths in idle mode cost, 
especially when they're not having to fight against room temp?  I'd bet, not 
much at all.  A 10% energy comsumption rate with everything powered down 
except the low berths would extend the 30 days' fuel to 300 days, which is in 
the realm of reason, and I'm guessing that even 10% needed power is a bit high.

Now, if you accellerate toward the target system for a day or 2, you'll dome 
up with a reasonably decent delta vee.  Don't want it *TOO* high, but you 
don't want to just stand still.  And if your ship has fuel scoops, and your 
engineer's good enough, you can *concieveably* refuel the ship by scooping up 
all those lone hydrogen atoms in interstellar space.  IIRC, there's something 
on the order of *one* hydrogen atom in every cubic centimeter in interstellar 
space, and ramscoop speeds are on the order of 1000 km/sec.  It's concieveable 
that, given a couple of *YEARS* at this speed, you can get enough fuel into 
your tanks to do a microjump that would put you that much closer to the target 
system.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:16:38 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> 
> 
> warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> 
> > Greetings, one and all. I wanted to throw the following
> > in on the subject of drop tanks.
> >
> > JTAS #4 is the edition in which the Gazelle-class Close
> > Escort was first introduced. The following paragraph is
> > a direct quote from JTAS #4 regarding the Gazelle's
> > drop tanks.

[snip]

> > The article's author and ship designer: Marc Miller
> >
> > That's about as canon as you can get...
> 
> Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
> working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
> instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
> when I melt it into a glass ball....

You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen 
at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals 
across the surface of the planet.

*AND* you'd get a nifty light show to boot...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #404
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 18 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 405



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: [T98#397] Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop Tanks
Traveller fiction
Re: Tracking Bullets
Product Review
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: drop tanks
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 07:07:06 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> John R. Snead wrote:
> >> Still, this is more an option for megaships going between A & B 
> >> starports, since D & E starports simply won't have such tankers, and 
> >> many C class ports won't either.  I've always assumed trade between A 
> >> & B class ports was basically run only by megacorps anyway.  This 
> >> basically turns tanker-based fueling into local color with no direct 
> >> effect on the PCs.  Why not allow it?
> >
> > So this is allowed because its a "rare event" but my jump theory doesn't
> > because it's time discrepancies in "rare events" (InSystem jumps and 
> > jumps to empty space) aren't a week?  Hmm... I'm feeling a double 
> > standard here...
> 
> Not rare at all, I'd expect their use to be *very* common between large,
> well travelled Class A ports.  However, I don't see their use having much
> of an impact on PC ships (other than reinforceing the fact that small
> trading vessels have no hope of making a living trading between large
> Class A & B ports).  However, out on the fringes among the Class C & D
> ports I'd expect jump tankers to be a rare sight indeed. 

Which makes perfect sense, since it seems the best way for a PC ship to make 
any *REAL* money would be to work the fringes.

> 
> > I didn't know the jump projectors only worked out to thousand km... I 
> > thought they sent you off to another system. I only saw a vague 
> > reference to them in the MT rules, never saw the specifics.
> 
> In MT there were TL 21 ship to ship weapons, you used them to force an
> enemy ship to jump, or even misjump.  I'd expect jump projectors which
> worked at much shorter range (like <100 meters) and with a longer warm-up
> time (ie not useful as weapons to be several TL lower. 

The rules also state that the ship doing the jump projecting has to burn the 
fuel or otherwise get the energy to make the target jump, perhaps by absorbing 
fire in its black globes.  This makes jump projectors, IMNSFBHO, a 'one-shot' 
desperation weapon.  Why make somebody just 'disappear' when you can just go 
for the kill and be done with it once and for all?  Since you have to carry 
the fuel, you lose out on any other weapons that you *COULD* be carrying, 
since you no longer have the space for them.  And if you use *YOUR* internal 
jump fuel, you're *STUCK* there until you either win or get destroyed.  Not 
exactly sane tactics, again, IMNSFBHO.  In any case, *SOMEBODY* has to 'pay' 
for the jump.  TANSTAAFL is preserved.

> 
> MT jump dampers either protected you from these things, or even prevented
> enemy ships from jumping (again at considerable range). 
> 
> Comments?

Jump dampers I can see, in a tactical sense.  Why let the enemy escape to come back and kick yer ass another day?  But still, do the weight and cost of these puppies outweigh their usefulness?  I think so.  Personally, I'll spend my money on conventional weapons and screens.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:37:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

>> Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
>> *completely* over a volume.
>
> Show me.

There's a diagram *and* explanation in Forward's book. The technique is
already in use for work in space that needs *real* zero g, not merely
the "microgravity" that's what you normally get over a finite volume in
orbit.

I'm not about to try reproducing the drawings with ASCII graphics.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:40:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >
>> >> In mail you write:
>> >>
>> >> >> Again, it depends on the *shape* of the field. That's why I 
> specified a
>> >> >> *uniform* field. For example, the field from a flat plate is 
> *constant*
>> >> >> until your distance from the plate starts to approach the distance 
> from
>> >> >> the edge of the plate. An infinitely wide flat plate would have a
>> >> >> gravity field that was the same *regardless* of distance from the 
> plate!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The inverse square law is nothing but *geometry*.
>> >> >
>> >> > No, if the plate is producing Black hole levels of gravity, then as
>> >> > your nose approaches the plate, it will be accelerated faster than
>> >> > the tail of your ship producing the same problem. The whole volume
>> >> > would have to accelerate at the same rate to prevent this.
>> >>
>> >> And it *does*. There's no drop in acceleration with distance. Thus,
>> >> there's no gravity differential to rip you apart *regardless* of the
>> >> field strength. The field strength depends on the density and thickness
>> >> of the plate, nothing else.
>> >
>> > Distance from front of ship to plate = D
>> > Distance from back of ship to plate = D+L
>> >
>> > Acceleration on front of ship = G/D^2
>> > Acceleration on back of ship = G/(D+L)^2
>>
>> Nope. The field from the plate doesn't *have* an inverse square
>> component. That's what I've been trying to tell you! Until you get far
>> enough away that edge effects start to interfere, the gravity is
>> *constant* regardless of distance.
>>
>> > At extremely large G's and large L vs. D, the gravitational differencial 
> will
>> > rip a ship apart.  A plane will do this just as bad as a point source.
>>
>> No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
>> field of the form:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>>
>> Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
>> the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.
>
> So you're saying that this plane will accelerate the universe towards it?  If
> gravity doesn't drop off, then you've just accelerated the universe... that 
> seems slightly less than possible.

Well, since a infinite plane is impossible, this is merely a example of
what would happemn if you could do it. But finite planes have the same
effects over smaller volumes.

>> > Unless
>> > you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are 
> equidistant
>> > from it, you'll always have this problem.
>>
>> Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
>> the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
>> to the same amount regardless of distance!
>
> Actually I did. I can't give you the exact formula but since all
> points yielded higher gravity at D than at D+L then the sum would be
> greater.

If that's the result you got, you made a mistake.

> However as the plane reaches infinity, that sum approaches infinite.

Nope. It's a converging series. For example, try summing the series 1,
1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, .... 2^-n. It sums to *2*, not to infinity, even
though there are an infinite number of values.

> Since both sums would approach infinity then (technically) both D and
> D+L would accelerate to the plane at infinite speed.

This is wrong *because* your previous assumption is wrong. The sums add
to a *finite* value.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 01:48:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T98#397] Re: Freelance Traveller - Your Help Requested

In mail you write:

> Noted.  I think 640x400 (EGA res) should work OK, and there are
> reports that 80x25 (text-only <g>) is acceptable.  Smaller than
> 640x400 is likely to be problematical.

EGA is 640x350 (I know because I'm in the process of setting up a
couple of old EGA systems). 640x400 is "base" VGA resolution. 640x480
is SuperVGA. 

Of course, that 640x400 is only with 16 colors! That's the best VGA can
do. You want 256 colors, you drop to 320x200 (or the weird 360x240 mode).
Everything else is SuperVGA. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:03:17 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 2:27 AM
Subject: Misjump Mathematics


>At 3:28 PM -0600 04/17/1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>Alan Peery wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>
>>> > Michael Croft wrote:
>
>Now here's a thought: If the chance of misjump is as high as stated and
>there are many ships travelling in an area, it might be worthwhile for
>individuals to start a career as a salvage crew.  If a ship is more than 2
>months late, listed as missing, presumed misjumped, go looking in all the
>empty hexes for it.  Carry fuel for three jumps and a prize crew. Check
>each hex and take home ships.
>
I have already ran that campaign on a slightly different note....  I had my
PC crews go into the war sectors immediatly after battles in the FFW and
start salvage operations.  They were under contract from the Imperial Navy
though and only got to claim 10% of the value as their bounty.  I'll post
more on that some other time.  Made for some interesting encounters to say
the least (and they seemed to be able to upgrade a number of things on their
ship that they couldn't really afford.)
>
>If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
>in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
>from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
>has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
>there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
>will be 140 ships large.
>Michael Croft
>
I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening.  Just
my tenth of a credit's worth of input.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 12:07:12 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks


>
>You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of
hydrogen
>at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km
intervals
>across the surface of the planet.
>
>*AND* you'd get a nifty light show to boot...
>
>Keven
>

That's what I like! NUKE'EM TILL THEY GLOW AND THEN OPEN A NIGHT FIRE RANGE.
Patience my a**, I want to kill something.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:13:28 +0000
From: edjs@mindlink.net
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

> Date:          Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:38:13 -0400
> From:          Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> 
> <Puzzled look>
> The TNE Gazelle can jump-5 (sans tanks) with 1260 kL of fuel.  It 
> can store 1450 kL internally.  Did they REALLY change the rules that 
> much?

   This is a consequence of going to a reaction-fuel model for 
maneuver drives in TNE and the drop in jump fuel requirements from 
MT.  Especially on military ships (where running out of maneuver fuel 
equals death) maneuver fuel can easily be more than the jump fuel 
tankage.


- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

The only truly "intuitive" interface is the nipple. After that,
it's all learned. (Bruce Ediger, bediger@teal.csn.org, in
comp.os.linux.misc, on X interfaces.)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 08:56:18 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Traveller fiction

There's a pretty good piece of Traveller fiction in Shadis #46.  "The
Superweapon" is the story of a recently retired Navy weapons specialist who
gets hired to work on a Vargr ship.  Very well done, with good attention to
canon.  Some nice touches include dynamic displays, a little bit of
exposition about the wait to come out of jump, and, of course, a barroom
brawl.

I've never heard of Edward Carmien, the author.  Has he done anything else?
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:00:45 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Tracking Bullets

At 02:50 PM 4/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Much thanks to everyone on the TML who answered my questions
>regarding the ability to track bullets and trajectories. I'd known 
>about how we could follow artillery back, back did not realize
>that we were truly that close to being able to pinpoint snipers and
>the like. Thanks to the info, my player's lives are going to be
>quite interesting this weekend <g>

On a side note, the Redwood City (Ca) Police Department is experimenting
with a city wide net of sensors that would detect gunshots, the triangulate
the shooter's location and dispatch police.  Early on, the system was prone
to count any large noise as a gunshot (a traffic jam on Woodside Rd
evidently gave the computer a nervous breakdown), but they are expecting to
have the system running by next New Years Eve.  This is important because
of the lovely habit of many people of firing guns in the air at midnight,
forgetting that those bullets have to land somewhere...
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:20:14 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Product Review

I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs from
Logicrucible.  Buy them.  Thank you.

What?  You need more?  *grumble*

These two programs are DOS-based universe and world building tools.
Astrologicus (AL) starts with an entire galaxy, filled with clusters done
in 3-D.  Pick a cluster, and it shows the local stars, pick a star, and it
gives you a map of the system.  At each level you can name, modify, and
note relevant detail about the cluster/system in question.

Some nice touches include the Auto search feature that goes through a
cluster and identifies all the systems with habitable worlds.  At the
system level, you can zoom in on a planet and get details on its resources,
weather, atmosphere, ecological zones, etc..

The program takes up an astoundingly small amount of space for such a
useful product.  since each galaxy has up to one thousand clusters, and
each cluster can have hundreds of stars, you see the potential.

Terralogicus (TL) is the companion piece.  A world mapper, it can be
accessed by selecting a world in AL then zooming in closer.  The maps are
Travelleresque polygons.  You can zoom in until the scale is about 1m/hex.
While demonstrating this program for Kirsten the other night, we started at
the galaxy level and by zooming in at random ended up looking down at a
Quonset hut type building that was about 70m long.  All this information
can be saved for later use.

As with AL, you can alter the parameters for the planet you are mapping.
The program takes each change into account as you make it, so the maps are
very dynamic.

System requirements?  Gee.. pretty steep.  You have to have an 8088
processor, with 640k, DOS 3.3 or better.  They do recommend a 386 for those
of us on the cutting edge :)

Logicrucible is at:

http://www.logicrucible.com/index.html

Right now, they don't take orders over the web, so you'll have to phone
them or send them a check.  But they were very helpful and sent me my order
by US Priority Mail.

I really can't say enough about these two utilities.  Go to the web site
and give them a look.
- --

Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
*******************************************
"It is better to have more lightning in the
 brain and less thunder in the mouth."
                              -Sioux saying

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 09:21:36 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

At 12:07 PM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:

>That's what I like! NUKE'EM TILL THEY GLOW AND THEN OPEN A NIGHT FIRE RANGE.
>Patience my a**, I want to kill something.

Ban the Bomb!  Where's the fun if you can't see them die?
- --

+------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+------------------------------------+
|          Embrace Fascism.          |
|       The uniforms look cool       |
+------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:39:07 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

At 12:03 PM -0400 04/18/1998, Thom Harris wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>>
>>If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
>>in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
>>from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex...
>>
>I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
>The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
>jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
>you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
>give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening.  Just
>my tenth of a credit's worth of input.

While I intend to play it with a differing chance of misjump, that's not
how it is written in CT or T4.  In CT, the chance is 13+, with modifiers.
This meant that you couldn't misjump unless you did something risky.  In
T4, it's 2-, with modifiers, which is where the 1 in 36 chance at best
comes in.

I'm thinking of a house rule that rolls an additional die after a misjump:
1-3 standard misjump, 4-5 insystem misjump, 6 time misjump (1D weeks).

This makes the odds of a jump to an empty hex 1 in 144.  This is probably
acceptable to freelance shippers, but not to megacorps.  It also makes the
wait in port for a missing ship more suspenseful, because it may be a lot
longer than expected for what ought to be a simple run...

I was wondering why a bank would mortgage a ship for 480 months when the
life expectancy was 36 months.  Do they require insurance?  If so, aren't
the premiums exhorbitant?
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 11:39:07 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

At 12:03 PM -0400 04/18/1998, Thom Harris wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>>
>>If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
>>in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
>>from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex...
>>
>I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
>The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
>jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
>you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
>give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening.  Just
>my tenth of a credit's worth of input.

While I intend to play it with a differing chance of misjump, that's not
how it is written in CT or T4.  In CT, the chance is 13+, with modifiers.
This meant that you couldn't misjump unless you did something risky.  In
T4, it's 2-, with modifiers, which is where the 1 in 36 chance at best
comes in.

I'm thinking of a house rule that rolls an additional die after a misjump:
1-3 standard misjump, 4-5 insystem misjump, 6 time misjump (1D weeks).

This makes the odds of a jump to an empty hex 1 in 144.  This is probably
acceptable to freelance shippers, but not to megacorps.  It also makes the
wait in port for a missing ship more suspenseful, because it may be a lot
longer than expected for what ought to be a simple run...

I was wondering why a bank would mortgage a ship for 480 months when the
life expectancy was 36 months.  Do they require insurance?  If so, aren't
the premiums exhorbitant?
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:20:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: drop tanks

>  As Hans has pointed out, it's only canon after 1100-ish and in the
>Imperium, and thus they can be ignored in many places and eras.

Although the Gazelle is a TL-14 design, implicitly (and maybe
explicitly) fairly old by 1100; I wonder if it was originally
designed at jump-3 or so and refitted to use drop tanks?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 10:30:39 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

>> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
>> Burns fuel out of tanker.
>> Withdraws hose.
>> Falls into jump point.

This is the same reason I have never used drop tanks in my campaign. They
give large corporations and governments a huge advantage over individuals.

>One approach would be to require the jump fuel to be consumed in a very,
>very, very short time (making it difficult to work with a hose of any length),

So just use more hoses. Drop tanks already channel all their fuel through a
limited channel, hoses can use the same connection.

>and to introduce a significant chance that if anything is within a few hundred
>meters of a ship going into jump Bad Things happen to the object (though
>not to the ship) a small percentage of the time - tolerable Bad Things for a
>drop tank, but not for an (expensive, manned) tanker.

If you can jettison a huge drop tank large enough to store all the jump
fuel at once, why can't you jettison a simple hose that only has to carry a
fraction of the fuel volume at a time?

Why even use a hose at all? Just squirt the fuel into a big funnel outside
the ship connected to the engines. You don't need a physical connection
between the ship and tanker at all. If the "tanker" is outside the
100-diameter limit, you don't even need maneuver drives, the tanker can
dock with your ship.

>Also, operationally, especially for moderate-jump traffic it's not clear that
>the tanker approach really would save you money, since it adds considerable
>time and fiddling to rendezvous with the tanker, synchronize everything, etc.

I beg to differ. It eliminates all the "time and fiddling" of refuelling
for starships entirely. A single large tanker can do all the scooping,
refining, and whatever for several ships. Compare the hours it takes to
scoop and refine fuel to the minutes it would take to get refuelled by a
tanker. Getting refuelled from a tanker would take no longer than loading
already-refined fuel normally does. You already have to "rendevous" with a
port now to get refuelled, it would be even quicker to get this without
having to dock. Plus all the volume-wasting fuel tanks, scoops, and
refining machinery stays on the tanker where you don't have to maintain it
or carry it around. Instead, you get to carry more cargo.

>For comparison - one could save a considerable amount of weight (5-10%)
>in modern airliners if they took off with nearly-empty fuel tanks and then
>used mid-air refuelling to top up (you save landing gear weight and engine
>lifetime.) However, it's hardly worth the extra complexity.

I hardly think this is a valid comparison. Airlines have to use their fuel
incrementally as they travel. A more valid analogy would be allowing the
airport to burn all the fuel required for a flight before the plane even
takes off. The airliner doesn't need fuel tanks or refuelling en route at
all. This would revolutionize air travel.

>Similarly, although
>multi-stage rockets have enormous mass fraction advantages, it's generally
>thought that even a huge, inefficient single-stage-to-orbit vehicle will be
>much cheaper in the long run because you don't have to reassemble it after
>every trip. These will probably restrict drop tanks to specialized long-haul
>applications. (They're great for military use, though.)

The only drawback to using tankers is that you have to jump to a place that
also has them. This would not make them great for the military.
Logistically and economically, drop tanks and fuel tankers are nearly
identical. I can't understand why someone who allows drop tanks would balk
at using fuel tankers.

- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 13:22:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30
days.
> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.

Depends on what system you use.  I think I've made ships under FF&S and
FF&S2 that had more than 30 days worth of power with all systems running.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:31:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> >
> >
> > warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> >
> > > Greetings, one and all. I wanted to throw the following
> > > in on the subject of drop tanks.
> > >
> > > JTAS #4 is the edition in which the Gazelle-class Close
> > > Escort was first introduced. The following paragraph is
> > > a direct quote from JTAS #4 regarding the Gazelle's
> > > drop tanks.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > The article's author and ship designer: Marc Miller
> > >
> > > That's about as canon as you can get...
> >
> > Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
> > working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
> > instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
> > when I melt it into a glass ball....
>
> You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen
> at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals
> across the surface of the planet.
>
> *AND* you'd get a nifty light show to boot...

The point was that IF you've got these high capacity accumulators, why haven't
they been implemented in weapons?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:42:35 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

> I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
> The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
> jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
> you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
> give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening.  Just
> my tenth of a credit's worth of input.

Could somebody post the jump rules that you guys are talking about? Because,
I've only got MT and TNE, and none of this makes sense.  Obviously there's been
a change someplace.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 15:12:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: jhereg <jhereg@southwind.net>
Subject: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> Assume we need to travel 1 parsec to get to a launch spot.
> That's 3.08* 10^16m
> Our 1G drive acceleration is 10m/s^2
> The time formula isT=2(sqrt(D/A))
> If we could accelerate constantly, we would accelerate halfway there and
> then slow down.  We can't due to fuel restrictions and lightspeed
> restrictions, so we'll look at a different approach.  We accelerate for 15
> days, put everything into emergency shutdown mode except one sensor and the
> low berths, which are in an extremely low power consumption mode.  16 light
> minutes from the destination, breaking initiates.  Using Newtonian physics
> (there may be some advantage to going a mesurable fraction of lightspeed),
> you should arrive 754 years after departure.  Knowing that this is a bad
> idea, you may choose to acclerate for 30 days and hope they can slow you
> down when you get there, 377 years later.
> 
> If you pull 6Gs for 30 days, you can get there in under 63 years.

The problem I see with trying to pull 6Gs for 30 days is fuel.  A Thrust
Plate drive loses most of it's efficiency out of a gravity well (Operates
at 10% of efficiency ??)  Without checking I don't think you could pull
over .6 Gs with a 6G ship.  A non-thrustplate ship should run out of
reaction mass LONG before you hit 30 days. ( And if they have THAT much
reaction mass, they should jump home anyway... <g>) It would still add up
in the long run.

					Andy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #405
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 18 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 406



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Logicus Simulators (was: Product Review)
[T98#399] Finding KB2.0
FF&S version differences
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 
Mega Movers (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Low Berth Canon Question
Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:59:10 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Logicus Simulators (was: Product Review)

Yeah, they are pretty neat.  I've had them for awhile...  The only problem I
have is that they're not really simulators.  The orbits are circular, rather
than elliptical.  I used them for a strategy campaign I was running... put all
the players in a single cluster.  Neat product, but I found it's actual
utility limited.  There's a couple bugs I can tell u bout too... minor ones...
inconvenient at worst, at least in my experience.
  They say they don't want to use a DOS extender but are working on a w95
version.  Too bad i dont' have windows 95.  Oh well...  How much are they
running for now?  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:31:27 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#399] Finding KB2.0

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 10:10:51 -0400, "Peter H. Brenton"
<pbrenton@mit.edu> wrote:

>>Is Ken Bearden's task system online anywhere?  Or could someone
>>please forward me a copy?

>>Thanks,

>>Suz

>Got it;

>http://www.dragonfire.net/~FreelanceTraveller/Features/RuleAnal/KB20.html

Uh, maybe not by the time Suz goes after it - that site is going
away.  Freelance Traveller is now located at
http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller (note no tilde), and
you can find KB20 as one of the articles under "Doing It My Way".

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:18:24 -0400
From: "Ed Leland" <eleland@gte.net>
Subject: FF&S version differences

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi all-
    Just getting back into Traveller after a several year hiatus.  I own =
the GDW FF&S and am wondering how significant the differences between =
that version and the IG version are.  Better yet, is there a document =
listing the changes anywhere on the net?  Thanks for your help-

Ed Leland
eleland@gte.net


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<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Hi all-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Just =
getting back=20
into Traveller after a several year hiatus.&nbsp; I own the GDW FF&amp;S =
and am=20
wondering how significant the differences between that version and the =
IG=20
version are.&nbsp; Better yet, is there a document listing the changes =
anywhere=20
on the net?&nbsp; Thanks for your help-</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2>Ed Leland</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial size=3D2><A=20
href=3D"mailto:eleland@gte.net">eleland@gte.net</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=3D#000000 face=3DArial =
size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV></BODY></HTML>

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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:02:10 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 3:12 PM -0500 04/18/1998, jhereg wrote:
>I Wrote:
>>We accelerate for 15
>>days, put everything into emergency shutdown mode except one sensor and
>the low berths, which are in an extremely low power consumption mode.  16
>light minutes from the destination, breaking initiates.  Using Newtonian
>>physics (there may be some advantage to going a mesurable fraction of
>>lightspeed), you should arrive 754 years after departure.  Knowing that
>>this is a bad idea, you may choose to acclerate for 30 days and hope
>>they can slow you down when you get there, 377 years later.
>>
>>If you pull 6Gs for 30 days, you can get there in under 63 years.
>
>The problem I see with trying to pull 6Gs for 30 days is fuel.
>A non-thrustplate ship should run out of
>reaction mass LONG before you hit 30 days. ( And if they have THAT much
>reaction mass, they should jump home anyway... <g>) It would still add up
>in the long run.
>
Agreed.  The point of the excercise in creating excel spreadsheets was for
me to determine how long the a ship would need to travel if it couldn't
jump and it had to take a normal space journey.  While 60 years seems like
a possibility for a slow return, 754 seems like it would be too long, at
least for humans.

Aside from the salvage crew idea mentioned, another possibility hit me,
which is scout missions to periodically check empty sectors for misjumped
ships.  Normal procedure if you expect to be rescued within a year is to
mothball all except the low births and hope the scouts arrive before your
systems fail.

Here's another thought about how to return: look at the contents of your
ship and ask "what can be converted to water/hydrogen?"  Well, the ship is
full of air, that'll get us some, although we'll have to jump in Vacc suits
(or low berths).  Can we do anything clever with our cargo?  How about our
weapons?  Our supplies?

Heh.  Maybe I'll stick my crew on a mission, misjump them, and have the
things they need to make fuel in their ship, but they don't know it.  Let's
see if they figure it out...

Another question: How compressable is hydrogen?  Can we put enough of it as
"compressed emergency fuel" aboard the ship to do us any good?
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:06:15 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen
> > at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals
> > across the surface of the planet.
> >
> > *AND* you'd get a nifty light show to boot...
> 
> The point was that IF you've got these high capacity accumulators, why haven't
> they been implemented in weapons?
> 

Too bloody expensive.  Why screw around with Zochai crystal bombs when you get 
more bang for the buck from nukes?  Jesus, Joe, do the math already.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:08:14 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 

> At 3:12 PM -0500 04/18/1998, jhereg wrote:
> >>If you pull 6Gs for 30 days, you can get there in under 63 years.
> >
> >The problem I see with trying to pull 6Gs for 30 days is fuel.
> >A non-thrustplate ship should run out of
> >reaction mass LONG before you hit 30 days. ( And if they have THAT much
> >reaction mass, they should jump home anyway... <g>) It would still add up
> >in the long run.
> >
> Agreed.  The point of the excercise in creating excel spreadsheets was for
> me to determine how long the a ship would need to travel if it couldn't
> jump and it had to take a normal space journey.  While 60 years seems like
> a possibility for a slow return, 754 seems like it would be too long, at
> least for humans.

Speed is accelleration times the square of the time.  Once you know the speed, 
and know the distance you need to fly, you can figure out the time needed.  60 
years is a good ballpark figure.

> Aside from the salvage crew idea mentioned, another possibility hit me,
> which is scout missions to periodically check empty sectors for misjumped
> ships.  Normal procedure if you expect to be rescued within a year is to
> mothball all except the low births and hope the scouts arrive before your
> systems fail.

How often would they check?  A mission is a costly thing, who'd pay for it?
 
> Here's another thought about how to return: look at the contents of your
> ship and ask "what can be converted to water/hydrogen?"  Well, the ship is
> full of air, that'll get us some, although we'll have to jump in Vacc suits
> (or low berths).  Can we do anything clever with our cargo?  How about our
> weapons?  Our supplies?

Low berths or medical fast drug.  Group I was playing with one time stuffed a 
bunch of refugees in the cargo hold knocked out with med slow & stacked like 
cordwood.

If they're doing medical fast, let them climb in a rescue ball rigged up with 
a full day's air & their suit.  They knock themselves out for the month, wake 
up, button up their suit, run the air in the bubble thru a recycler to scrub 
out the CO2. recharge the bottles, then climb back into the bubble, unseal the 
suit and take another hit.  12 doses make you last a year, only using 12 days 
worth of life support.  Figure they'd need 720 doses to make it that 60 year 
sublight flight, and 2 years life support for 1 person.  Life support for 20 
people for a month will give one person life support for 560 days.  Now figure 
a way to get that 60 year flight down to 50 and you have something that's 
*barely* do-able.  You'd *want* that one person on med fast while the rest are 
in the low berths because you don't have to unthaw them to do cursory checks 
to make sure everything is going smoothly, or as smoothly as can be expected.

> Heh.  Maybe I'll stick my crew on a mission, misjump them, and have the
> things they need to make fuel in their ship, but they don't know it.  Let's
> see if they figure it out...

Like, they just *happen* to be transporting an old antique fully loaded 
fission reactor someplace, that should be good for about 100 years at x% of 
rated power?  It's one of those things that make you go "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..."

> Another question: How compressable is hydrogen?  Can we put enough of it as
> "compressed emergency fuel" aboard the ship to do us any good?

It's compressable, but it takes up the least amount of space as liquid.  Sure 
you can get it as a solid, too, but you better be able to maintain 
temperatures of 1 or 2 degrees Kelvin.  Not really worth it for the little 
amount of space you'd save.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 19:51:30 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Mega Movers (was Re: Drop Tanks)

>> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
>> Burns fuel out of tanker.
>> Withdraws hose.
>> Falls into jump point.

>This is the same reason I have never used drop tanks in my campaign. They
>give large corporations and governments a huge advantage over individuals.

But isn't that the point of being a mega corporation or government? That's
like the argument that allowing the US Army to have M1 tanks and F14s
give them too much of an advantage over the individual citizen and his
assault rifles <g>

>having to dock. Plus all the volume-wasting fuel tanks, scoops, and
>refining machinery stays on the tanker where you don't have to maintain it
>or carry it around. Instead, you get to carry more cargo.

Which brings up my idea for a Mega Mover -- in addition to the above, if
you believe in the wide spread use of automation like was discussed on
the list in the recent past, you can conceive of gi-normous multi million
ton Mega Movers that consist of little more than a shell to hold the cargo
and a jump drive. No crew, no wasteful fuel space, just load it up with the
Titanic, the Statue of Liberty, and the Eiffel Tower (all neatly packed in
standardized cargo containers of course <g>), close the clamshells, 
send the programmed jump information, and hit the button that pumps
over the fuel and fires up the engines.... *WHOOOSH* it's on its way...
Shouldn't be much more difficult than an automated xboat; hell, you 
might be able to load up *all* the automated xboats in it and deliver them
to their stations <g>.

While I tend to be ambivalent about automation in Traveller and tend 
to play more along the lines of the "1977 with jump drives" school,
the idea of these ENORMOUS robotic Andromeda Class Mega
Movers REALLY appeals to my sense of wonder.... I can certainly
image standing in an observation port of one of my Guppy ships and
being dumbstruck while watching one of these monsters enter from
jump space... Better get out the spreadsheet, I think Pan-Imperia 
just opened up a WHOLE new assembly line <g>.

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 16:50:20 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

At 01:22 PM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 30
>days.
>> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>
>Depends on what system you use.  I think I've made ships under FF&S and
>FF&S2 that had more than 30 days worth of power with all systems running.

My standard for any jump capable vessel is one full year of power plant
fuel.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:04:39 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 01:37 pm 4/17/98 MET, you wrote:
>-> Problem 3: Drop tanks.  I'd again need the specifics on what is
possible with
>-> drop tanks.  These seem to be the exception rather than the rule.
>Drop tanks are containers that can be mouinted inside  your cargo 
>space, thereby reducing it significantly. They allow you to double 
>the amount of fuel that u usually could transport and thus allow you

>to make two jumps with one load without having to refuel.

	Nope, those are dismountable tanks. Drop tanks mount outside the
ship thereby increasing the overall displacement of the ship, and
hence reducing possible acceleration; the fuel they carry is used to
initiate jump, but before actually entering jump the now-empty tanks
are discarded, reducing the overall displacement of the ship. Hence a
100Td ship designed for Jump-3 can carry 30Td of drop tanks, and when
it jumps using those tanks, it can still make J3. However, if you
don't drop the tanks, your displacement is obviously 130Td.

	Technically, you can carry any amount of fuel you desire within drop
tanks. If it's less than you need for jump, you have to make up the
difference with internal tankage.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:22:57 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 12:43 am 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>
>>
>> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a
uniform
>> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
>> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields
vary
>> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the
same.
>> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane
charge
>> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.
>
>I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a
plate, all points
>will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about
two points at
>different distances.

	Doesn't matter. Two points at different distances wille have exactly
the same charge/gravity ... at *ANY* point anywhere in the fictional
universe, the gravity will be exactly identical. There's _no_ height
dependence in the equation:

	A=k*G*Density*thickness


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:51:06 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

With me it tends to depend. Ships meant for wilderness use (Imperial fringe
and beyond) I use a years supply of PP fuel and equip the ship with thruster
plates, and some times HePLAR  backups, also a double jump tankage is a good
idea, but not always practical. Those intended for use ampng the Core
Worlds, I tend to cut the PP fuel to 2 monthes (tops) and a single jump
number of fuel tankage.

The theory is that there is little change of not finding a refueling point
among the Core Worlds. Kind of like taking a car trip. on the U.S. East
Coast it's pretty hard NOT to find a gas station. In the West (say Arizona,
Nevada or New Mexico) having extra gas cans might not be a bad idea.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 18, 1998 8:04 PM
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU


>At 01:22 PM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts
30
>>days.
>>> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>>
>>Depends on what system you use.  I think I've made ships under FF&S and
>>FF&S2 that had more than 30 days worth of power with all systems running.
>
>My standard for any jump capable vessel is one full year of power plant
>fuel.
>--
>
>
>Douglas Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:45:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Low Berth Canon Question

Question WRT to canon on Low Berth Technology:

Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?

It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
afford it
would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
investments.  Etc.

TIA
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 17:45:56 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

[forwarded message from a TMLer who can't post]

CT: throw 13+ for misjump (on 2d)
        w/in 100 diameters      DM+5
        w/in 10 diametyers      DM+10
        Unrefined fuel          DM+1
        Naval Ship              DM-1
        Scout Ship              DM-2

        if 13+ misjump has occured, 16+, ship is destroyed
[Traveller Book, p55]

MT: step 7: Prepare for Jump
        Routine*, Engr., Edu, 2min
        if fuel unrefined, Hazardous
        if past annual maintenance, hazardous and increase diff by
1            level per month.

    Step 8: Engage Jump Drive
        Can only be done once step 7 is completed.
        Routine, Engineering , Edu, 2min.
        Unrefined fuel makes this hazardous
        Safe Jump: A ship at least 100 diameters out, using the
proper         fuel, and with properly maintained drives can make a safe
jump          with _no chance of mishap_.[emphasis mine]
        Dangerous Jump: if within 100 diameters of a massive body,
this         task is Difficult (Hazardous).
        Desparate Jump: If the ship is within 10 diameters of a
massive         body the task is Formidable (hazardous)

        If a mishap occurs, go to 15.

    Step 15 Jump Mishaps
        Superficial: Jump relativity error occurs. 1d+4 days in
jump           		 before emerging in destination system, otherwise 	
unharmed.
        Minor: Jump relativity Error occurs, but when it emerges in the
                destination system, the Ship emerges 1dx8 hours from
                destination world.
        Major: Jump relativity Error occurs. When the ship emerges
from 		jump, it discovers that it has misjumped.
                Throw 1d6 to find the number of dice to throw. Then 		
throw that number of dice to determine the distance (in 		parsecs or map
hexes) for the distance the ship 			travelled. Then throw 1d for the
direction of the 		misjump. 
        Destroyed: The ship is destroyed.
[MT Imperial Encyclopaedia, pp 92-93]

2d Mishaps occur on a natural 2 on the 2d task throw, or on an
exceptional failure (by 2+ points) for hazardous tasks, or any failure
on a fateful task. 3d mishaps occur on any natural 2 on a hazardous
task, or any failure on a hazardous fateful task.

Mishap determination table [roll dice by failure category]
        2       reroll [this table]
        3+      superficial
        7+      minor
        11+     major
        15+     destroyed
[MT Referee's Manual, p14]

TNE: Step 7: Prepare ship for jump
        Average AStrogation. [also sets course]
        Difficultif ship is past annual maintenance.

    Step 8: Average Ships Engineer
        .
        safe jump [as per MT]
        Dangerous Jump: within 100 diameters of a massive body, this 	
task is Difficult.
        Desperate Jump: within 10 diameters of a massive body, this task
        is formidable.
        if the ship is using unrefined fuel (without a fuel purification
        plant), increase the difficulty 1 level.

        if the task fails, go to step 15.

    Step 15: Jump Mishaps
        Failure:  Jump relativity error occurs. 1d+4 days in jump before
                emerging in destination system, otherwise unharmed.
        Catastrophic Failure: Jump relativity Error occurs, but when
the 	ship emerges in the destination system, it is 2d6 x 100 		diameters
out from the destination world, rather than only 100.
        Aggrivated Catastrophic Failure: If catastrophic failure occurs 
while using unrefined fuel,  when in need of maintenance, or 		when
suffereing effects of damage to the jump drive,  a major 		jump
relativity error occurs. When the ship emerges from jump, 		it discovers
that it has misjumped.
         Throw 1d6 to find the number of dice to throw. Then 			throw
that number of dice to determine the distance (in parsecs 	or map hexes)
for the distance the ship travelled. Then throw 1d
        for the direction of the misjump. The ship arrives at a random
        point within the system. Roll 1d20-1 for the orbit number at
        which the ship emerges.
[TNE, pp 225-227]


As you can see, under editions prior to T4, misjump can only occur if
you DON'T take care of your ship properly. Under Mega and TNE, Misjumps
poutting you outside the target system are not common. Under MT, the
occur 1/36 x 1/12, or 1/432, somewhere around 0.22%, assuming you have
something wrong with the drive.

Due to MT and TNE's safe jump notes, most commerce will have failure
rates on the order of nil, assuming the crew is competent, and doesn't
do anything stupid, and they are not cheapskates.


IMTU, I treat a safe jump fumble as a 1d+2 mishap; thus the high number
of minor relativity errors.... and almost no real misjumps unless the
ship is damaged or doing something stupid. Alas, however, stupidity is a
hall mark of the group I run for, at least as regards ship operations.
Dangerous jumps, unrefined fuels, jumping with damaged engines, souping
up the drives, etc.

[At this point Wil reaaly should mention that the Traveller group
normally uses dangerous jumps and jumping with dammaged engines are
normally only attempted when the alternative [instant death from the
pursing ships] is worse. - Peter Newman]

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 18:51:20 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:09:52 +0000 : "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>> Of course you could try desparate measures.  You start
>> the ship on a vector that will get you to the nearest
>> habitated system.  You then get the computer to, after
>> all are in the low berths, to open the ship to turn cool
>> the whole ship with liquid hydrogen as you turn the reactor
>> off.  You then hope the cold of space keeps you
>> frozen and some very good doctors to revive you if and
>> when you are arrive at the system and are found.

>Everybody's in a low berth, so you don't *need* power to life support, the
>gravity plates, ad nauseum.  That extends your power plant fuel to start
>with.
> How much energy does running just the low berths in idle mode cost,
>especially when they're not having to fight against room temp?

Well, that is the question.  It would depend, a lot, on how low you
can run a powerplant on wether a low berth does more than keep
things cold.  To me, surviving a misjump should be more than inconvenient,
though I think PCs should have _some_ chance.

>Now, if you accellerate toward the target system for a day or 2, you'll dome
>up with a reasonably decent delta vee.  Don't want it *TOO* high, but you
>don't want to just stand still.

Actually, I was assuming you would use 3/4 of your remaining fuel to
accelarate before you all went to "sleep".  However, as another poster
noted, it might be better to just send a message for help.  It will
get there at the speed of light.

>  And if your ship has fuel scoops, and your
>engineer's good enough, you can *concieveably* refuel the ship by scooping up
>all those lone hydrogen atoms in interstellar space.

No chance, you couldn't even built up enough pressure to push the
hydrogen into the tank.  (Actually, I have heard it claimed that
the concept is fundamentally flawed because the drag the hydrogen
causes would be more than the thrust you get out of it.

>  IIRC, there's something
>on the order of *one* hydrogen atom in every cubic centimeter in interstellar
>space, and ramscoop speeds are on the order of 1000 km/sec.

They are also a lot bigger than the fuel scoops you use for a gas
giant and don't rely on pressure to force the hydrogen into a tank.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:10:08 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

David J. Golden wrote:

> At 12:43 am 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a
> uniform
> >> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
> >> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields
> vary
> >> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the
> same.
> >> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane
> charge
> >> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.
> >
> >I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a
> plate, all points
> >will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about
> two points at
> >different distances.
>
>         Doesn't matter. Two points at different distances wille have exactly
> the same charge/gravity ... at *ANY* point anywhere in the fictional
> universe, the gravity will be exactly identical. There's _no_ height
> dependence in the equation:
>
>         A=k*G*Density*thickness

I think you're using the wrong formula.
For  a point source:
F=GMm/d^2
F= Force of gravity
G= Universal gravity constant
M= Mass 1
m= mass 2
d= distance from point source

Since we're dealing with a nonvarying gravity body and the ship isn't losing
mass, GMm will be constant (we'll use K to represent this):
F=K/d^2

Now, applying Pythagorean theorum:
d^2= h^2 + r^2
d= distance from point source
h= height from plane
r= radius from intersection point

Now, we can assume a plane to consist of an arbitrarilly large set of point
sources.
Since the lateral components of these point sources balance out, only the
vertical component counts.
Fvertical at point = (h/d)(K/d^2) = hK(h^2 + r^2)^(-3/2)
If you sweep that around in a circle aligned with the axis of motion, the volume
underneath is the net vertical component gravity acting on a point at height h.
Fvertical combined = integral (r from 0 to infinity)
pi h K((h^2 + (R + dR)^2)^(-3/2) - (h^2 + R^2)^(-3/2))

I ran a rather large plane (large enough to see the convergence) through my
spreadsheet (since I have less than no idea how to integrate that)
With one square meter of plane producing 1m/s^2 acceleration, at 1 meter height,
gravity is 2 pi m/sec^2

However, It produced a very interesting skewed bell curve. At height less than
one meter, gravity dropped off (at h=0, gravity= 0) at larger heights, it also
drops off.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #406
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 19 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 407



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mega Movers (was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
re: Adventures During Wartime
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Deep Salvage (was re: Misjump Mathematics)
Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Games For Sale
Re: Older Traveller Products
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Gateway to the Stars
Low Berths and aging
Re: Low Berth Canon Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:16:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Mega Movers (was Re: Drop Tanks)

Paul D. Owensby wrote:

> >> What's to prevent this:Freighter runs hose into tanker/tender.
> >> Burns fuel out of tanker.
> >> Withdraws hose.
> >> Falls into jump point.
>
> >This is the same reason I have never used drop tanks in my campaign. They
> >give large corporations and governments a huge advantage over individuals.
>
> But isn't that the point of being a mega corporation or government? That's
> like the argument that allowing the US Army to have M1 tanks and F14s
> give them too much of an advantage over the individual citizen and his
> assault rifles <g>
>
> >having to dock. Plus all the volume-wasting fuel tanks, scoops, and
> >refining machinery stays on the tanker where you don't have to maintain it
> >or carry it around. Instead, you get to carry more cargo.
>
> Which brings up my idea for a Mega Mover -- in addition to the above, if
> you believe in the wide spread use of automation like was discussed on
> the list in the recent past, you can conceive of gi-normous multi million
> ton Mega Movers that consist of little more than a shell to hold the cargo
> and a jump drive. No crew, no wasteful fuel space, just load it up with the
> Titanic, the Statue of Liberty, and the Eiffel Tower (all neatly packed in
> standardized cargo containers of course <g>), close the clamshells,
> send the programmed jump information, and hit the button that pumps
> over the fuel and fires up the engines.... *WHOOOSH* it's on its way...
> Shouldn't be much more difficult than an automated xboat; hell, you
> might be able to load up *all* the automated xboats in it and deliver them
> to their stations <g>.
>
> While I tend to be ambivalent about automation in Traveller and tend
> to play more along the lines of the "1977 with jump drives" school,
> the idea of these ENORMOUS robotic Andromeda Class Mega
> Movers REALLY appeals to my sense of wonder.... I can certainly
> image standing in an observation port of one of my Guppy ships and
> being dumbstruck while watching one of these monsters enter from
> jump space... Better get out the spreadsheet, I think Pan-Imperia
> just opened up a WHOLE new assembly line <g>.

OK, now lets extrapolate a little here... lets say you've got this moon orbiting a
gas giant at 101 diameters... ah hell, lets take a chance... 11 diameters... now
you pump fuel from the gas giant, filtering it on the way, to the injection
manifold... surround the moon with an open frame jump grid/drives... inject the
fuel and POOF!!!  Planet Movers Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:18:26 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Question WRT to canon on Low Berth Technology:
>
> Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?
>
> It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
> afford it
> would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
> investments.  Etc.

My character bought a captaincy after a millenia in cold slumber.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:27:14 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: re: Adventures During Wartime

Rob Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't know about most, but a distribution map I saw last month (can't
remember where) showed the largest clusters along the Eastern Seaboard.
The run from Texas around Florida was particularly dangerous. German
U-Boats used to wait for ships to be siloetted against against a city's
lights and sink them, then vanish before the Navy could respond. (The
British Admiralty was aghast that American never enforced coastal
blackouts when it was costing them ships - at one time more ships were
being lost off the coast than in the middle of the Atlantic!) Also,
coastal convoys weren't implemented for quite a while, and not completely
at all.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
A friend of mine had a father in the Navy, flew observation planes along
the Eastern Seaboard during WWII. According to him, there were nights
at the height of the battle of the Atlantic where you could fly from 
New York City to Pensacola, Florida and never be out of sight of a burning
ship.

Obtrav: When running those wartime scenarios, don't forget the window 
dressing. The shattered fragments of an unlucky ship pinging off their hull
as they enter Ruie jump point. Ground crew rushing out from the cover
of a burnt-out Subsidized Merchant as the players make a dangerous
landing at Efate Downport. Little things like that....


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:26:51 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

[rules for misjumps clipped]

OK forget for a moment the probabilities of misjumping.  There are three possible results of
a misjump: Ship is destroyed, you fly off to d6*d6 parsecs, or you arrive in your targetted
system with a temporal hiccup.  Destroying your ship and flying off to oblivion don't seem to
be possible unless you really try for it, i.e. jump at 10 diameters and use unrefined fuel.

So, this whole business about routinely jumping into an empty system seems impossible to me.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:39:31 -0400
From: "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu>
Subject: Deep Salvage (was re: Misjump Mathematics)

Michael Croft wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now here's a thought: If the chance of misjump is as high as stated and
there are many ships travelling in an area, it might be worthwhile for
individuals to start a career as a salvage crew.  If a ship is more than 2
months late, listed as missing, presumed misjumped, go looking in all the
empty hexes for it.  Carry fuel for three jumps and a prize crew. Check
each hex and take home ships.

If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
will be 140 ships large.

Hey, there's a way to escape a misjump!  Get the dregs of fuel from all the
dead ships!  Creepily entering the 1000 year old ship whose crew died here
in dispair, you find that this one too, has no fuel.  It does however have
a guardian robot...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Even with the odds of jumping to an empty square miscalculation 
(delt with by others), there is a problem with this: Space is mind-numbingly
BIG. The stars aren't in the center of the hexes, nor do misjumps put
you dead center in an empty hex. A misjumped ship could be anywhere in
(at least) a one parsec volume of your jump to the center for salvage ops.

Still, it might work - make a jump, fold out a real big antennae and listen,
jump to another location and do the same - look for a distress beacon.
Considering what a salvaged vessel could be worth, I can see some 
salvage crews trying deep space jump & scans - the odds would be more
like those of a prospector looking for a wildcat strike than a sure thing,
though.

Come to think of it, the Seeker (modified scout ship) rigged with the fuel
packs for Jump-2 might be just the ship to do this kind of work. An old,
clunky ship with an owner that's looking for a big score anyway - it'd
jump in, take a scan, mark a signal, jump back for fuel, then jump for the 
signal, investigate, mark what's found for salvage and sell the location 
to someone who can do something about it.

Scenario Idea: The heroes are on a misjumped ship, with time running
out. A prospector on such a deep salvage scan, half space-happy already,
shows up and is grumpy to find the crew still alive. He promises to go
for help - or is he going away to wait for all to die, so he can come back
for a multimillion credit salvage? But if the heroes try to take his battered
Seeker, it might be destroyed in the fight...


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:42:00 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller

The following is designed using GURPS Vehicles, 2d Ed (VE2), to be a
plug-in for ships in GURPS Traveller.  It uses 1 dton = 500 cf.  

The laser is optimized for space combat, at the expense of performance in
ground or air combat; in particular, the energy bank is sufficient for only
one shot, and at the listed power takes 10 minutes (one space combat turn)
to recharge. Stabilization for the laser is also not included, as it has no
effect on space combat.  

Ranges in hexes and AESA ranges in vacuum follow the errata for VE2.  The
AESA has a range equal to 2x the 1/2D of the laser, thus its range in
low-res radar or ladar mode equals the 1/2D range.  The radar/laser
detectors are primarily for directing anti-missile fire.  

The materials used are standard, and only DR 10.  This is the closest
simple fit I could find to Traveller materials, both lb/sf and $/lb.  I
assume the hull DR of the ship still protects the ship's interior, and that
the volume of the socket has been included in environmental systems
calculations (life support, artificial gravity, grav compensation).  I also
use power slugs in lieu of power cells, per an earlier analysis of laser
rifle powerpacks in both games.

This is intended to establish a standard configuration for these turrets,
which serves two purposes.  I will post a list of standard designs at a
later date, with weight, cost, power consumption, and weapons statistics,
on the theory that you are already familiar with this design and that the
other turrets' features are analogous to this one.  As the simplest
starship weapon one can expect to encounter in a GURPS Traveller campaign,
this also serves as a basis for comparison - for hull armor, weapons and
sensor ranges, systems capabilities, etc.
For example, this laser averages 651 points of damage per shot:  a figure
of merit, therefore, when designing armor for starships.

Modular Socket (no TL)

Volume:  1500 cf.
Statistics:  Price $750,000.

Modular Laser Turret (TL 8)

  Subassemblies and Body Features:  One pop turret (full rotation).
  Weaponry:  One 135 Mj extreme range UV laser (TuF, HP 500, power 
67,500 kW derated to 450 kW).
  Weapon Accessories:  Universal mount for laser and AESA (Tu, HP 400).
  Instruments and Electronics:  AESA radar with 1,000 mile range (Tu,
HP 100, 250 kW, Scan 29).  Advanced radar/laser detectors (HP 8) with
dedicated, hardened minicomputer running Transmission Profiling and a 
1 Gb ship recognition database.
  Miscellaneous:  Emergency Medikit. Portable Electronics Toolkit.
Enviro-bubble.
  Crew station:  normal. One dedicated, compact, hardened microframe,
running Gunner, Targetting, and Datalink. One terminal. HUDWAC with
pupil scanner.
  Occupancy:  Short.  Crew: Gunner.  Environmental Systems:  connected
to ship for full life support.  TL 8 limited life support, one man-day
(HP 13, 0.5 kW, powered by energy bank).
  Power Plant:  connected to ship for 701 kW.  
  Energy Bank:  One E-size rechargeable power slug (180,000 kWs, HP 6).
  Volume:  Pop turret (1,215 cf).  Body (1,500 cf).  Surface Area:  Pop
Turret 683, Body 725.  Total area 1,408 sf.
  Structure:  Standard frame, standard materials.
  Hit Points:  Body 1088, turret 1025.
  Armor:  Standard Composites, PD 3, DR 10.
  Vision:  None - no outside windows or doors.
  Statistics:  Empty weight 36,733 lbs.  Usual payload 267 lbs (gunner
plus vaccsuit and life support).  Loaded weight 37,000 lbs (18.5 tons).
Volume 2715 cf.  Size modifier +5.  Price $2,490,000.  HT 8.
  Space Performance:  AESA (10,000 miles/10 hexes, Scan 35).  135 Mj UV
Laser (Malf: Ver, Dam: 6d*31, 1/2D: 5,000 miles/5 hexes, Max: 15,000
miles/15 hexes, Acc: +29, SS: 28, RoF: 1/2 derated to 1/600, Shots 1,
10 minutes to recharge).    

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:50:48 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

I just have a question about the jump calculation.

Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?
To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the planet's orbit and the
diameter of the planet, and then predict where it will be.
So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.
But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that target system (a gas
giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could you then rely on library data after synching
up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., observe target system, since planets X and Y
are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of planet B).

Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is with 100 diameters of a
huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.  Jump wouldn't be possible then
would it?

Confused,
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 20:29:13 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> wrote

> Here's another thought about how to return: look at the contents of your
> ship and ask "what can be converted to water/hydrogen?"  Well, the ship is
> full of air, that'll get us some, although we'll have to jump in Vacc suits
> (or low berths).  Can we do anything clever with our cargo?  How about our
> weapons?  Our supplies?

Don't forget your passengers.  Humans are 90%+ water.  One ninth of
water is hydrogen.  Therefore one tenth of the weight of each passenger
is hydrogen.  In CT humans cannoically weighed 75 kg (AM 1 Aslan IIRC),
therfore each passenger should have 7.5 kg of hydrogen in them.  1000kg
in a ton (mass & displacement for hydrogen) / 7.5 kg = 133.333
passengers whom you need to murder & throw in the fuel purifier to get
an extra ton of fuel for the jump drive.

Noter that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of
air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficinet
fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to process
this much fuel.


- -- 
   pnewman@alaska.net		Peter Newman 
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have been nothing but compassionate and understanding. I mean, all
you had to do was to admit you were wrong and I was right and everything
would've been fine." Ivanova to Winters in Bab5: "Divided Loyalties"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 98 23:57:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On 04/18/98 at 06:51 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>>  And if your ship has fuel scoops, and your
>>engineer's good enough, you can *concieveably* refuel the ship by scooping up
>>all those lone hydrogen atoms in interstellar space.

>No chance, you couldn't even built up enough pressure to push the hydrogen
>into the tank.  (Actually, I have heard it claimed that the concept is
>fundamentally flawed because the drag the hydrogen causes would be more
>than the thrust you get out of it.

Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
days searching for a nice big snowball. 

Let's say it's a Staggering Task (8hr) of Sensor Skill to detect a chunk of
matter, so your crew has 3 chances a day to find something. (I'm not
completely happy with the sensor rules, they don't really cover this
situation, but at a point like this you're talking GM-plot point anyway.)
Once they find something, it might be 50-50 that it will be a useful chunk.
If it is, great, if it's not they keep looking. Eventually, they hit
"paydirt" and have to mine/refine and ready for another shot at jumping.  

A misjump into an "empty hex" shouldn't be deadly or lead to "time out of
time" adventures *every* time.  Many times it will delay the ship for weeks
while they search for a iceball, throwing timetables off and disrupting
schedules, but that's all.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 22:29:34 -0700
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

>
>I can't *find* Andover on my US map. But a trip from *anywhere* in
>Massachutsetts to New York City would be about like a trip from Camas
>to Seattle. A trip to Rochester would be like a trip to Spokane. You
>see, Rochester is at the opposite end of the state, up by Lake Ontario.
>

Andover is 26 miles north of Boston.  Just take I-93 north till you see
Exit 45, drops you off at the Courtyard Mariott Hotel, where I stayed.
Stay on 93 heading north, and you'll hit New Hampshire in about 15 minutes
from Andover.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:33:10 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>
> Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?

No, at least IMTU.

> It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
> afford it
> would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
> investments.  Etc.

Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
realizing your investments along the way?

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:26:47 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
>
> This is the same reason I have never used drop tanks in my campaign. They
> give large corporations and governments a huge advantage over
individuals.

Large corporations and governments should have a huge advantage over
individuals.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 01:38:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>
> Don't forget your passengers.  Humans are 90%+ water.  One ninth of
> water is hydrogen.  Therefore one tenth of the weight of each passenger
> is hydrogen.  In CT humans cannoically weighed 75 kg (AM 1 Aslan IIRC),
> therfore each passenger should have 7.5 kg of hydrogen in them.  1000kg
> in a ton (mass & displacement for hydrogen) / 7.5 kg = 133.333
> passengers whom you need to murder & throw in the fuel purifier to get
> an extra ton of fuel for the jump drive.

Reminds me of a race in the computer game "StarControl II" whose special
ability was to burn sentient slaves to get a boost of speed in combat.

> Noter that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
> this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
> Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
> without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
> Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of
> air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficinet
> fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to process
> this much fuel.

Pleasant.  Thanks for the imagery and ideas!  :^|

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 00:44:32 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Games For Sale

I've got some computer games I'm selling cheap.  If you are interested,
contact me privately.  All buyers pay shipping.

Kenneth.
  ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Star Wars
Rebel Assault II--The Hidden Empire

CDROM (2 CDROMS included)
Price:  $10.00

Great game!  You follow along a Star Wars story, jumping in and playing
at appropriate times.
After the destruction of the Death Star, Darth Vader is pretty P-Oed.
He's got a new weapon under his sleeve,  though, and it's up to you to
do something about it.

The graphics are incredible, with full-motion video in places.  Sound is
awesome, and the game is fun as heck (trust me, heck is pretty fun).



Privateer 2:  The Darkening

CDROM  (3 CDROMS included)
Price:  $15.00

This game has the feel of the Aliens movies--the actors are British and
it is a dark future.  This game stars Christopher Walkin, John Hurt,
Jurgen Prochnow, David Warner, Amanda Pays, Brian Blessed, and David
McCallum among others.

The graphics are great, and you take up the story of man who has lost
his memory--and he's trying to figure out who's trying to kill him.  You
follow along a story, but the meat of this game is the space-fighter
combat simulation.  You can customize your own ship kick some butt with
the pirates.



Battleground:  Ardennes
Battle of the Bulge

CDROM
Price:  $5.00

If you like wargames, this is a cool one.  Unlike most, it is very easy
to learn.  You can print out situation reports to study the battlefield
if you are playing a friend.  This also includes the "Battleview"
function, where you can turn the map into a 3D representation.  You can
actually see the height of the terrain and figure line of sight this
way.  Cool wargame.



Star Trek
Judment Rites

3.5 Floppy
Price:  $5.00

Captain's Log, stardate 6238.4.  There is no doubt we're being
watched....  Follow along with Kirk & Co. while you go along various
episodes modeled after the original series.  I really enjoyed this game
and played it, all the way through, three times, but then again, I'm a
Trekkie.



Star Trek
Judment Rites
Movie & Sound Pack
Cluebook

3.5 Floppy
Price:  $5.00  (for both)

The movie and sound pack adds many cinematic scenes to the story you
play in the game listed above.  The cluebook keeps you from dialing
Interplay's 900 number when you get stuck.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 18 Apr 1998 23:12:18 -0700
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Older Traveller Products

>Closer to your new home is Excalibur Hobbies in Malden which has a very few
>older items (I mostly cleaned them out over the years, sorry) and a
>Compleat Strategist on Mass Ave in Boston which has at least the newer
>stuff and some MT books last time I was there.
>
>

I'm going to avoid Boston if at all possible, the streets are insane and so
are the drivers...:)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:14:09 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> >
> > Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?
>
> No, at least IMTU.
>
> > It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
> > afford it
> > would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
> > investments.  Etc.
>
> Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
> realizing your investments along the way?

An example:

Year 0    Age 30
Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth maintenance).
Enter low berth.

Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
Exit Low Berth
Sell Stock,
Invest in real estate on Sylea.
Have fun for a year.

Year 51   Age  31
Enter low berth.

Year 100 Age 31
Exit low berth.
Sell real estate on Sylea.
Buy a Countship or Baronry.
Try to spend all the money before you die.



Of course the real reason is I want to use this to move my players forward
through time periodically.

But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that people
would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will sell
it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.  That
creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level of
labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an empire.

Vernor Vinge has written about this kind of idea in his Across Realtime
novelas.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:15:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
> days searching for a nice big snowball.

How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 03:45:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

At 01:22 PM 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) lasts 
>>30 days. After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>
>Depends on what system you use.  I think I've made ships under FF&S and
>FF&S2 that had more than 30 days worth of power with all systems running.

I dearly love MT, the task system is my favorite, the stuff Digest Group
did with it is wonderful, and I even think the Rebellion/Hard Times era
has wonderful possibilities, *but* the fuel consumption for Fusion plants
was *really silly*.  I worked out the efficiency of those things once and
it turned out to be around 0.001% (ie 1/1000 of the energy being produced
was being converted to electricity.  The easiest thing to due is either to
adopt FF&S2 for MT or (even easier) reduce Fusion fuel consumption by a
factor of 100.  To compensate, change jump fuel consumption to 10% of
volume/parsec jumped. Do this and my suspension of disbelief is much less
troubled, and every ship would likely carry fuel for the power plant for a
year or so. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 06:57:56 EDT
From: FKiesche <FKiesche@aol.com>
Subject: Gateway to the Stars

Greetings All:

Found the Traveller novel in the Waldenbooks near work. There were about a
half dozen copies, I picked up one and will see how many are still there the
next time I go.

Overall, I'm enjoying the books. Oh yes, the typos irriate me. The incorrect
references to the Droyne really irritate me. But, it's the spawn of Imperium
Games, so I guess those two things are to be expected, along with the other
occasional canon-busting blooper.

I like the small details the most. For example, finding passengers and cargo
in the local starport bar. How many times have we played that scene ourselves?
I also like the occasional bit like "Droyne Droppings". Although the name is
misplaced for the era, it's a great reference!

On the last page or so I notice a reference to "the story will continue". I
would buy the next volume. I like it better than the New Era novels (which
were fun, but I hated the "Hi, my name is Joe, codename Hatcheck" character
reference bullhockey. Writing is about the same, characterizations are about
the same, plot is about the same.  Not quite at the Swycaffer level (but those
were definately not "canon"), but loads of fun!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:09:03 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Low Berths and aging

Sat, 18 Apr 1998 21:45:31 -0400 Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:

>Question WRT to canon on Low Berth Technology:
>
>Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?

Yes. Both, actually. According to the excellent article 'Suspended Animation' in the Travellers' Digest #21, there are two types of low berths: Chill Berths and Cold berths. Chill Berths lower metabolic rates to minimal levels, making a 'ten-day trip in hibernation [...] effectively the same as four hours' sleep'.

Cold Berths completely freezes the occupant, stopping metabolic processes altogether. No aging occurs.

>It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
>afford it
>would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
>investments.  Etc.


Excactly. Such people normally seek membership with a Timer Club, where all members lay frozen and are usually simultaneously revived at regular intervals. In this way, Timers have acquaintances they can share their experiences with in each new time they emerge into. After a while, they go back into cold sleep again for another cycle.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:19:17 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

> Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
> realizing your investments along the way?
Because the anagathicsthemselves will eat up all profit! They are extreeeeemely
expensive!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #407
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 19 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 408



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU 
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Misjumps IMTU 
Re: Misjumps IMTU 
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Re: Product Review
Re: Games For Sale
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Product Review
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:33:29 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

> > Here's a thought.  Fire up the manuever drives and put the crew into the
> > emergency low berths.  What happens when they arrive back in port after
> > years of being listed as missing presumed dead?
> 
heres an evil thought:
Passenger waking up: "unnngh! He-Hello!"
Steward : "Ah, i see you made it allright, welcome to EFATE"
Passenger : "Have we landed yet?"
Steward :" Yes, we have, now if you would take your things and step into the airlock,
please, i havnt got all day!"
Passenger : "OK!..." Gets into airlock, door shuts! "Hey, waittaminnit, we havnt
landed, i can see space though the window!"
Steward : "Bye-bye!" 
- -Pushes button. Passenger"......."
Steward : "One down, two to go. Lets empty them out!"
(high and medium passengers knocking on their locked doors!)


- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:06:51 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU 

> Sat, 18 Apr 1998 05:09:52 +0000 : "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> 
> >Everybody's in a low berth, so you don't *need* power to life support, the
> >gravity plates, ad nauseum.  That extends your power plant fuel to start
> >with.
> > How much energy does running just the low berths in idle mode cost,
> >especially when they're not having to fight against room temp?
> 
> Well, that is the question.  It would depend, a lot, on how low you
> can run a powerplant on wether a low berth does more than keep
> things cold.  To me, surviving a misjump should be more than inconvenient,
> though I think PCs should have _some_ chance.

Absolutely, they get *SOME* chance.  I just wouldn't hand it to them on a 
silver platter.  A Fateful roll against intelligence on 3 dice, mebbe?

> >Now, if you accellerate toward the target system for a day or 2, you'll dome
> >up with a reasonably decent delta vee.  Don't want it *TOO* high, but you
> >don't want to just stand still.
> 
> Actually, I was assuming you would use 3/4 of your remaining fuel to
> accelarate before you all went to "sleep".  However, as another poster
> noted, it might be better to just send a message for help.  It will
> get there at the speed of light.
> 
> >  And if your ship has fuel scoops, and your
> >engineer's good enough, you can *concieveably* refuel the ship by scooping up
> >all those lone hydrogen atoms in interstellar space.
> 
> No chance, you couldn't even built up enough pressure to push the
> hydrogen into the tank.  (Actually, I have heard it claimed that
> the concept is fundamentally flawed because the drag the hydrogen
> causes would be more than the thrust you get out of it.

1, you're not looking for *thrust*, you're looking for *fuel*.

> 
> >  IIRC, there's something
> >on the order of *one* hydrogen atom in every cubic centimeter in interstellar
> >space, and ramscoop speeds are on the order of 1000 km/sec.
> 
> They are also a lot bigger than the fuel scoops you use for a gas
> giant and don't rely on pressure to force the hydrogen into a tank.
> 

2.  That's where the 'good enough engineer' comes in.  If he can rig up a 200 
km+ wide ramscoop (or a magnetic field 200km wide, that is!!), I don't see why 
the ship couldn't get a *trickle* of hydrogen into the tanks.

Keven


==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:12:31 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

> [rules for misjumps clipped]
> 
> OK forget for a moment the probabilities of misjumping.  There are three possible results of
> a misjump: Ship is destroyed, you fly off to d6*d6 parsecs, or you arrive in your targetted
> system with a temporal hiccup.  Destroying your ship and flying off to oblivion don't seem to
> be possible unless you really try for it, i.e. jump at 10 diameters and use unrefined fuel.
> 
> So, this whole business about routinely jumping into an empty system seems impossible to me.
> 

Plus DM+1 for each month past annual maintanance.  And, in areas like Reaver's 
Deep or the Reft, odds are that you *WILL* end up in an emtpy hex *WY* the 
hell away from everybody.

Why not pick up a map of someplace like the Spinward marches & toss some dice 
already?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:29:49 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

> I just have a question about the jump calculation.
> 
> Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?

According to CT, & the exact reference escapes me at the moment, you come out 
about 100 diameters automatically.  It's like, your car stops at the curb of 
the street instead of on your front porch or inside your living room.

Optional 'brown pants rule':  If you khest your calculations, you can pop up 
*anywhere* inside the system, but it wrecks your powerplant and drives if you 
come in too close.

> To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the planet's orbit and the
> diameter of the planet, and then predict where it will be.
> So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.

This would already be part of your navigation program's database, yes?  Or at 
least, a position and vector notation for a standardised date should be.  The 
computer then calculates the position where the target planet will be from 
that.  And you'd update the database at yearly maintanance as a matter of 
course.

> But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that target system (a gas
> giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could you then rely on library data after synching
> up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., observe target system, since planets X and Y
> are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of planet B).

Shouldn't be a problem, barring the occaisional rogue comet...

> 
> Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is with 100 diameters of a
> huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.  Jump wouldn't be possible then
> would it?

Since you can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' object 
(and by large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the computer 
would probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters away 
from the gas giant.  And if you told the computer to ignore the gas giant 
anyways, the drive would bring you out someplace beyond the 100 diameter limit.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:34:38 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU 

> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
> days searching for a nice big snowball. 
> 
> Let's say it's a Staggering Task (8hr) of Sensor Skill to detect a chunk of
> matter, so your crew has 3 chances a day to find something. (I'm not
> completely happy with the sensor rules, they don't really cover this
> situation, but at a point like this you're talking GM-plot point anyway.)
> Once they find something, it might be 50-50 that it will be a useful chunk.
> If it is, great, if it's not they keep looking. Eventually, they hit
> "paydirt" and have to mine/refine and ready for another shot at jumping.  
> 
> A misjump into an "empty hex" shouldn't be deadly or lead to "time out of
> time" adventures *every* time.  Many times it will delay the ship for weeks
> while they search for a iceball, throwing timetables off and disrupting
> schedules, but that's all.

Ya know, I never thought of that...

Thanxx 1.0e6!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:36:45 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU 

> 
> 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> 
> > Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
> > IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
> > floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
> > you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
> > year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
> > days searching for a nice big snowball.
> 
> How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?

Half a lightyear or so, IIRC.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:37:05 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

Well Bloo,

This was the basis for at least one unpublished GDW MegaTraveller adventure.
The advertisement meantioned something about them receiving some type of
radiation poisioning and using suspended animation to "travel" forward in
time through the Long Night and early periods of the 3I in search of a cure.
I also remember this being used in Survival Margin to move one NPC from the
onslaught of Virus into the RC. The major drawback with doing it in the
number of hops you mention is the infamous "Low Berth Lottery" rules. Since
I don't use Low Berth very often in my campaigns I don't remember the exact
numbers but it's fairly stiff, even in Millieu: 1100 (one of the reasons my
players avoid it! ) and I would think it should be even higher in the M:0.
The more frequent your hops forward the more likely you are to loose at the
"Lottery" and wind up dead! All in all, I'd rather use analgesics than go to
sleep in a little tube knowing there was a good chance of not waking up! Low
Berth has always been a Last Resort IMTU.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 5:29 AM
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question


>
>
>Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>> > From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>> >
>> > Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?
>>
>> No, at least IMTU.
>>
>> > It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
>> > afford it
>> > would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
>> > investments.  Etc.
>>
>> Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
>> realizing your investments along the way?
>
>An example:
>
>Year 0    Age 30
>Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth maintenance).
>Enter low berth.
>
>Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
>Exit Low Berth
>Sell Stock,
>Invest in real estate on Sylea.
>Have fun for a year.
>
>Year 51   Age  31
>Enter low berth.
>
>Year 100 Age 31
>Exit low berth.
>Sell real estate on Sylea.
>Buy a Countship or Baronry.
>Try to spend all the money before you die.
>
>
>
>Of course the real reason is I want to use this to move my players forward
>through time periodically.
>
>But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that
people
>would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will
sell
>it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
>companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.  That
>creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
>discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level of
>labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an empire.
>
>Vernor Vinge has written about this kind of idea in his Across Realtime
>novelas.
>
>Bloo
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:55:17 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > [rules for misjumps clipped]
> >
> > OK forget for a moment the probabilities of misjumping.  There are three possible results of
> > a misjump: Ship is destroyed, you fly off to d6*d6 parsecs, or you arrive in your targetted
> > system with a temporal hiccup.  Destroying your ship and flying off to oblivion don't seem to
> > be possible unless you really try for it, i.e. jump at 10 diameters and use unrefined fuel.
> >
> > So, this whole business about routinely jumping into an empty system seems impossible to me.
> >
>
> Plus DM+1 for each month past annual maintanance.  And, in areas like Reaver's
> Deep or the Reft, odds are that you *WILL* end up in an emtpy hex *WY* the
> hell away from everybody.
>
> Why not pick up a map of someplace like the Spinward marches & toss some dice
> already?

What I'm saying is there is only one way to end up in a nontargetted system, and that's the d6 * d6
misjump.  If you do get that one, you're surely screwed.  But that Misjump requires that you
actively mistreat your jumpdrive. Thus common travel will always put you in your target system and
thus within radio distance of help.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:49:50 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Product Review

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> 
> I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs from
> Logicrucible.  Buy them.  Thank you.

I just took a look, folks and...wow!

No, that's not quite right.

WOW! THIS STUFF'S INCREDIBLE!!

Doug is right; check them out!

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:10:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Games For Sale

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Games For Sale


>I've got some computer games I'm selling cheap.  If you are interested,
>contact me privately.  All buyers pay shipping.
>
>Kenneth.
>
>Privateer 2:  The Darkening
>
>CDROM  (3 CDROMS included)
>Price:  $15.00
>
>This game has the feel of the Aliens movies--the actors are British and
>it is a dark future.  This game stars Christopher Walkin, John Hurt,
>Jurgen Prochnow, David Warner, Amanda Pays, Brian Blessed, and David
>McCallum among others.
>
>The graphics are great, and you take up the story of man who has lost
>his memory--and he's trying to figure out who's trying to kill him.  You
>follow along a story, but the meat of this game is the space-fighter
>combat simulation.  You can customize your own ship kick some butt with
>the pirates.
>
After you finish the game you can settle down and just become a merchant and
"jump" around doing trades, take adventures off the adventure board and a
whole host of Traveler like things.  Gabs of fun and you can upgrade your
ship, buy new ships, upgrade them, hire cargo carriers and perform escort
duty, add cargo pods to your own ship to do your own trading, etc.  Before
the end of the game it gets pretty hot for just trading in number of the
"Navigation" points.  It really does get down to a little fighting and
trading when you win the campaign.

LOVED THE GAME!

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:07:21 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > [rules for misjumps clipped]
> > >
> > > OK forget for a moment the probabilities of misjumping.  There are three possible results of
> > > a misjump: Ship is destroyed, you fly off to d6*d6 parsecs, or you arrive in your targetted
> > > system with a temporal hiccup.  Destroying your ship and flying off to oblivion don't seem to
> > > be possible unless you really try for it, i.e. jump at 10 diameters and use unrefined fuel.
> > >
> > > So, this whole business about routinely jumping into an empty system seems impossible to me.
> > >
> >
> > Plus DM+1 for each month past annual maintanance.  And, in areas like Reaver's
> > Deep or the Reft, odds are that you *WILL* end up in an emtpy hex *WY* the
> > hell away from everybody.
> >
> > Why not pick up a map of someplace like the Spinward marches & toss some dice
> > already?
> 
> What I'm saying is there is only one way to end up in a nontargetted system, and that's the d6 * d6
> misjump.  If you do get that one, you're surely screwed.  But that Misjump requires that you
> actively mistreat your jumpdrive. Thus common travel will always put you in your target system and
> thus within radio distance of help.
> 

*IF* you're in a reasonably civilised area, like the Core worlds ca 1100.  On 
the frontier, in just about *ANY* era, you could be in some serious trouble, 
unless you do some seriously inventive stuff.

Now, I've taken out characters that have done some totally *STOOPID* stuff in 
my time, but I try to *ALWAYS* give the characters a half a chance to get out 
of just about anything.  This includes misjumps into empty hexes...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:22:33 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>> At 3:12 PM -0500 04/18/1998, jhereg wrote:
>
>> Here's another thought about how to return: look at the contents of your
>> ship and ask "what can be converted to water/hydrogen?"  Well, the ship
is
>> full of air, that'll get us some, although we'll have to jump in Vacc
suits
>> (or low berths).  Can we do anything clever with our cargo?  How about
our
>> weapons?  Our supplies?

>
I thought that the oxygen created for the ship (when needed to supplement
the scrubbers) came from the fuel supply.  That wouldn't be very much to
turn back into fuel.
>
>Low berths or medical fast drug.
>Keven
>
What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for recharge).  The
low berths are already battery powered and you can get a couple of blankets
of solar panels (take up less space) and unroll them on the surface of the
ship.  You then need to run the power leads down to sickbay and tie them in.
At higher tech levels that may mean only a couple of square feet of solar
panels and they are cheap.  That's the ticket, problem solved.  That's what
I'm going to do IMTU.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:45:11 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)


>> I just have a question about the jump calculation.
>>
>> Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?
>
>According to CT, & the exact reference escapes me at the moment, you come
out
>about 100 diameters automatically.  It's like, your car stops at the curb
of
>the street instead of on your front porch or inside your living room.

>
I prefer to think of it as "at the curb" instead of "in front of the
garage".
>
>> To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the planet's
orbit and the
>> diameter of the planet, and then predict where it will be.
>> So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.
>
>This would already be part of your navigation program's database, yes?  Or
at
>least, a position and vector notation for a standardised date should be.
The
>computer then calculates the position where the target planet will be from
>that.  And you'd update the database at yearly maintanance as a matter of
>course.

>
This is exactly right.  All positioning data is in the nav program already.
I like to think that its like the companies on the Internet, updates are
posted on their web site for your version of their software.  You dock at a
class A - C starport and download the updates automatically.  Same goes for
commodity pricing and any relevant news for the area.  This could actually
be done once a datalink is established with the starport and occurring in
the background while your computer is bringing the ship in.  Transactions
with agents could be conducted automatically and your cargo sold and the new
load already contracted by the time you dock.  This is all part of your
docking fee so there isn't any money to change hands.  You could even have
programmed in criteria and prioritized any speculative cargo so that it
could be purchased automatically too.
>
>> But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that target
system (a gas
>> giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could you then rely on library
data after synching
>> up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., observe target system,
since planets X and Y
>> are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of
planet B).
>
>Shouldn't be a problem, barring the occaisional rogue comet...

>
When you come out of Jump Space you basically "materialize" at location
moving at the same velocity and direction as when you jumped.  If the nav
program did its job you will be 100 diameters away from a gravity well.
>
>>
>> Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is with
100 diameters of a
>> huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.  Jump wouldn't
be possible then
>> would it?
>
>Since you can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' object
>(and by large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the computer
>would probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters away
>from the gas giant.  And if you told the computer to ignore the gas giant
>anyways, the drive would bring you out someplace beyond the 100 diameter
limit.
>
>Keven
>
100% correct!  These are built in protections and Marc has commented on the
100 diameter region previously.  You should be perfectly safe unless you
have a catastrophic roll of the die and even then there are still some
protections in place.  You would have to blow two or more rolls to wind up
in the center of the gas giant.  If that should happen have a bronze
memorial plate made up and put in orbit around the gas giant to show your
respect.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:43:14 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Product Review

where can we get the programs?

warlock@imagin.net wrote:

> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >
> > I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs from
> > Logicrucible.  Buy them.  Thank you.
>
> I just took a look, folks and...wow!
>
> No, that's not quite right.
>
> WOW! THIS STUFF'S INCREDIBLE!!
>
> Doug is right; check them out!
>
> --
> Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
> Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
> CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:04:55 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01BD6B82.FC42D200
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)


>I just have a question about the jump calculation.
>
>Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?
>To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the =
planet's orbit and the
>diameter of the planet, and then predict where it will be.
>So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.
>But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that =
target system (a gas
>giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could you then rely on library =
data after synching
>up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., observe target system, =
since planets X and Y
>are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of =
planet B).
>
>Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is with =
100 diameters of a
>huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.  Jump =
wouldn't be possible then
>would it?
>
>Confused,
>Bloo
>

Bloo see my reply below on these questions.
>
- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)


>> I just have a question about the jump calculation.
>>
>> Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?
>
>According to CT, & the exact reference escapes me at the moment, you =
come
out
>about 100 diameters automatically.  It's like, your car stops at the =
curb
of
>the street instead of on your front porch or inside your living room.

>
I prefer to think of it as "at the curb" instead of "in front of the
garage".
>
>> To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the =
planet's
orbit and the
>> diameter of the planet, and then predict where it will be.
>> So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.
>
>This would already be part of your navigation program's database, yes?  =
Or
at
>least, a position and vector notation for a standardised date should =
be.
The
>computer then calculates the position where the target planet will be =
from
>that.  And you'd update the database at yearly maintanance as a matter =
of
>course.

>
This is exactly right.  All positioning data is in the nav program =
already.
I like to think that its like the companies on the Internet, updates are
posted on their web site for your version of their software.  You dock =
at a
class A - C starport and download the updates automatically.  Same goes =
for
commodity pricing and any relevant news for the area.  This could =
actually
be done once a datalink is established with the starport and occurring =
in
the background while your computer is bringing the ship in.  =
Transactions
with agents could be conducted automatically and your cargo sold and the =
new
load already contracted by the time you dock.  This is all part of your
docking fee so there isn't any money to change hands.  You could even =
have
programmed in criteria and prioritized any speculative cargo so that it
could be purchased automatically too.
>
>> But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that =
target
system (a gas
>> giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could you then rely on =
library
data after synching
>> up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., observe target =
system,
since planets X and Y
>> are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters =
of
planet B).
>
>Shouldn't be a problem, barring the occaisional rogue comet...

>
When you come out of Jump Space you basically "materialize" at location
moving at the same velocity and direction as when you jumped.  If the =
nav
program did its job you will be 100 diameters away from a gravity well.
>
>>
>> Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is =
with
100 diameters of a
>> huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.  Jump =
wouldn't
be possible then
>> would it?
>
>Since you can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' =
object
>(and by large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the =
computer
>would probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters =
away
>from the gas giant.  And if you told the computer to ignore the gas =
giant
>anyways, the drive would bring you out someplace beyond the 100 =
diameter
limit.
>
>Keven
>
100% correct!  These are built in protections and Marc has commented on =
the
100 diameter region previously.  You should be perfectly safe unless you
have a catastrophic roll of the die and even then there are still some
protections in place.  You would have to blow two or more rolls to wind =
up
in the center of the gas giant.  If that should happen have a bronze
memorial plate made up and put in orbit around the gas giant to show =
your
respect.
Thom


- ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01BD6B82.FC42D200
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	charset="us-ascii"
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<HEAD>

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<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: =
Steve Daniels=20
&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:blueboy@bu.edu">blueboy@bu.edu</A>&gt;<BR>Subject: =
Re:=20
Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)<BR><BR></DIV>
<DIV></FONT>&gt;I just have a question about the jump=20
calculation.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters =
from=20
target planet, right?<BR>&gt;To do this, you would need to have =
calculated the=20
period of the planet's orbit and the<BR>&gt;diameter of the planet, and =
then=20
predict where it will be.<BR>&gt;So, this calculation would be an =
astrogation=20
task.<BR>&gt;But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects =
in that=20
target system (a gas<BR>&gt;giant, a star, an asteroid belt, =
etc.).&nbsp; Could=20
you then rely on library data after synching<BR>&gt;up the predicted =
positions=20
by observation (i.e., observe target system, since planets X and =
Y<BR>&gt;are in=20
relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of planet=20
B).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Here's a good one:&nbsp; say you want to target a =
small=20
planet that is with 100 diameters of a<BR>&gt;huge gas giant, or will be =
at the=20
time jump is completed.&nbsp; Jump wouldn't be possible =
then<BR>&gt;would=20
it?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Confused,<BR>&gt;Bloo<BR>&gt;<BR></DIV>
<DIV>Bloo see my reply below on these questions.</DIV>
<DIV>&gt;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">-----Original =
Message-----<BR>From:=20
Keven R. Pittsinger &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jamstar@glasscity.net">jamstar@glasscity.net</A>&gt;<BR>Su=
bject:=20
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"><BR>&gt;&gt; I just have =
a question=20
about the jump calculation.<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Ideally you come out =
of jump=20
100 diamters from target planet, right?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;According to CT, =
&amp;=20
the exact reference escapes me at the moment, you =
come<BR>out<BR>&gt;about 100=20
diameters automatically.&nbsp; It's like, your car stops at the=20
curb<BR>of<BR>&gt;the street instead of on your front porch or inside =
your=20
living room.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">&gt;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>I=20
prefer to think of it as &quot;at the curb&quot; instead of &quot;in =
front of=20
the<BR>garage&quot;.</FONT><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; To do this, you would =
need to=20
have calculated the period of the planet's<BR>orbit and the<BR>&gt;&gt; =
diameter=20
of the planet, and then predict where it will be.<BR>&gt;&gt; So, this=20
calculation would be an astrogation task.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;This would =
already be=20
part of your navigation program's database, yes?&nbsp; =
Or<BR>at<BR>&gt;least, a=20
position and vector notation for a standardised date should=20
be.<BR>The<BR>&gt;computer then calculates the position where the target =
planet=20
will be from<BR>&gt;that.&nbsp; And you'd update the database at yearly=20
maintanance as a matter of<BR>&gt;course.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">&gt;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>This is=20
exactly right.&nbsp; All positioning data is in the nav program =
already.<BR>I=20
like to think that its like the companies on the Internet, updates =
are<BR>posted=20
on their web site for your version of their software.&nbsp; You dock at=20
a<BR>class A - C starport and download the updates automatically.&nbsp; =
Same=20
goes for<BR>commodity pricing and any relevant news for the area.&nbsp; =
This=20
could actually<BR>be done once a datalink is established with the =
starport and=20
occurring in<BR>the background while your computer is bringing the ship=20
in.&nbsp; Transactions<BR>with agents could be conducted automatically =
and your=20
cargo sold and the new<BR>load already contracted by the time you =
dock.&nbsp;=20
This is all part of your<BR>docking fee so there isn't any money to =
change=20
hands.&nbsp; You could even have<BR>programmed in criteria and =
prioritized any=20
speculative cargo so that it<BR>could be purchased automatically=20
too.</FONT><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; But what if the target planet is =
occluded by=20
other objects in that target<BR>system (a gas<BR>&gt;&gt; giant, a star, =
an=20
asteroid belt, etc.).&nbsp; Could you then rely on library<BR>data after =

synching<BR>&gt;&gt; up the predicted positions by observation (i.e., =
observe=20
target system,<BR>since planets X and Y<BR>&gt;&gt; are in relationship =
Z, jump=20
to point A to arrive within 100 diamters of<BR>planet=20
B).<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Shouldn't be a problem, barring the occaisional rogue =

comet...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff"></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT style=3D"BACKGROUND-COLOR: #ffffff">&gt;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>When=20
you come out of Jump Space you basically &quot;materialize&quot; at=20
location<BR>moving at the same velocity and direction as when you =
jumped.&nbsp;=20
If the nav<BR>program did its job you will be 100 diameters away from a =
gravity=20
well.</FONT><BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt;<BR>&gt;&gt; Here's a good one:&nbsp; =
say you=20
want to target a small planet that is with<BR>100 diameters of =
a<BR>&gt;&gt;=20
huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump is completed.&nbsp; Jump=20
wouldn't<BR>be possible then<BR>&gt;&gt; would it?<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Since =
you=20
can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' =
object<BR>&gt;(and by=20
large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the =
computer<BR>&gt;would=20
probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters =
away<BR>&gt;from=20
the gas giant.&nbsp; And if you told the computer to ignore the gas=20
giant<BR>&gt;anyways, the drive would bring you out someplace beyond the =
100=20
diameter<BR>limit.<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;Keven<BR>&gt;<BR><FONT =
color=3D#0000ff>100%=20
correct!&nbsp; These are built in protections and Marc has commented on=20
the<BR>100 diameter region previously.&nbsp; You should be perfectly =
safe unless=20
you<BR>have a catastrophic roll of the die and even then there are still =

some<BR>protections in place.&nbsp; You would have to blow two or more =
rolls to=20
wind up<BR>in the center of the gas giant.&nbsp; If that should happen =
have a=20
bronze<BR>memorial plate made up and put in orbit around the gas giant =
to show=20
your<BR>respect.<BR>Thom<BR></FONT></FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_01DB_01BD6B82.FC42D200--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #408
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 19 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 409



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks
re: Imperium
HPGs was Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
Re: Artificial Gravity
Re: Repai
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Product Review
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Artificial Gravity
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks 
RE: Product Review
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 
Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Low Berth Canon Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:06:32 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks

Alan Peery <peery@io.com> wrote:

>I don't know about the new rules, but I wouldn't take the Gazelle as
>a pointer to earlier design rules.  If memory serves it carries a
>particle accelerator barbette, and High Guard rules didn't allow
>barbettes on ships of less than 1000 tons...

IIRC the limit was on *bays* not barbettes?

There were MT designs which allowed 1 bay per 1000 dT or part of.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:18:22 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Imperium

Thanks to everyone who has given me tips on Imperium. Looks like I'll need
them as I'll be playing the Ziru Sirka...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:55:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: HPGs was Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an
>> >overloaded
>> >HPG.  Although beyond its safe limits, it could maintain the charge for a
>> >short
>> >period without flying apart.  Stronger materials can increase the safe
>> >load, but
>> >you can still overload it a bit if you keep the charge short.
>>
>> Most flywheel energy storage systems operate between two resonances - as
>> stopping the unit puts wear on the bearings. Assuming that this isn't a
>> problem (true active mag or grav bearings) you could handwave that the HPGs
>> in a drop tank push the upper resonance limits using a damping technology
>> to get more energy into the system, thus allowing a faster discharge if you
>> slow the HPG down afixed rate of spin. Maintaining the high speed would
>> increase the risk of resonance and failure...
>>
>> I also suspect that HPGs would have their mass reduced if higher strength
>> is achieveable - usually they'll be looking at a fixed amount of energy
>> like a battery, and higher strength = higher speed = less mass required for
>> same energy storage.
>
>err.. umm... did you just agree or disagree? :-|

Err. (sometimes I embarrass myself - I shouldn't post that late at night).

What I was trying to say was:

1) I agree that the stronger materials will allow faster rotation and thus
(for the same diameter wheel, similar density) a higher energy density.

2) I disagree that there will be much spare capacity in a HPG for the
following reasons:

a) It is likely that the designs are modular so they can be supplied to the
J-Drive OEMs. In most cases the manufacturer will probably look at building
a smaller, faster unit for the same energy to reduce their costs (remember
that the higher strength material will probably cost significantly more so
you'd look to use less of it).

b) HPGs will operate up to a certain point where a resonance will cause
failure by contact of the rotating element or destruction of the bearings.
There is unlikely to be much spare capacity to go higher than the rated
speed, else you aren't using the material or the performance of the
rotating element particularly efficiently.

3) Based on the work I've been involved in in flywheel energy systems, I
would propose one way to get an extra charge out of a unit. Most
flywheel/HPG systems I've seen don't discharge totally. This is because of
two reasons -

(a) bearing wear induced by the start/stop from rest
and
(b) potential for damage to the bearing/rotor from low end resonances just
before stopping.

Thus you could suggest that the HPGs in a Jumpdrive never fully discharge,
allowing a special case option where they do discharge fully, releasing
extra energy. For example, in any HPG/FESS you can obtain 75% of the energy
(gross - ignoring transfer losses) in the rotor if you cycle it between
100% design speed and 50% design speed. Slowing to rest would boost
available energy by 25%, at the risk of damaging the HPG.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:32:20 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Artificial Gravity

In article <01BD6A09.F803F220@RANDOMWALK.hartwick.edu>,
"Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
>Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>The question becomes what the conditions inside the vessel are if they use
>AG in this way.
>
>If, however, they are using uniform G fields to produce these effects, then
>it is good to know how the tides behave inside your ship near the grav plates.
>
>The above demonstrates that if the grav plates generate an even remotely
>uniform field, edge effects can be ignored.  Especially if they can pinch
>the field edges to minimize edge effects, or if they extend it a few meters
>beyond the ship's hull.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>In Alan Dean Foster's excellent book _Icerigger_, they start out in the bar
>of a starliner. One of the heroes of the story is certain that he has found
>a flaw in the artificial gravity of the liner - that the interference between the
>nodes should allow him to jump off the bar and touch the ceiling. He is 
>rather drunk, and is testing his theory by leaping off the bar and crashing
>into bottle racks, patrons and ship security officers. Rather entertaining...
>
>ObTrav: Remember that most of the grav plates on a starship don't have
>to stay at 1G. Want to give someone motion sickness with a series of
>minute grav field changes? Or gain some advantage with an unexpected
>dose of Zero G?

Hey, the grav plates are part of the security system on our ship.

Guy making trouble ?

Hit him with 6G. Then -6G.
Bang, Crack, Bang, Crack....

"Had enough, perp ? Or do you want more of the roller coaster ?"

"Ok, control, normal G, he's had enough."


People boarding ?

"Control ? Squad in corridor 6A, float 'em on my mark. 3, 2, 1,, mark !
 OK, bring 'em down hard !"



Frankie

    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:18:43 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Repai

In article <v02140b01b15a4a194eeb@[192.121.125.201]>,
anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:
>>At some point in the not *too* distant future, we are going to run up
>>against the physical limits of silicon technology. At that point, you
>>won't see "better" computers coming out yearly. And the developers will
>>have to go back to improving performance by writing better code instead
>>of counting on their customers buying a new computer.
>
>We've heard that a couple of times now. The physical limit of silicon has
>always been just around the corner, the same with modem speeds.

And when the physical limit of silicon is reached, we move into
the era of quantum computing, which has no such limits.

The first quantum computers have already been built,
(by IBM) and several models are already patented, such as the
design that has made RSA encryption obsolete and unsafe.

- -- 
Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 20:08:47 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

In article <3.0.3.16.19980417084621.4057bff8@mail.hooked.net>,
dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>At 03:26 PM 4/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>>war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>>involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>>Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>>group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>>might be reasonably expected to do?  
>
>Rather than having them actually involved in the war's prosecution, have
>them get caught up in it.  Hauling refugees, being caught on the ground
>when the Zhodani invade, even running the resistance on an occupied world.

I support that, one of the best games I've played in involved
us spend several gaming sessions modifying a light cruiser
(the _only_ starship in system ) to carry refugees from a star system
in which the planet's biosphere was rapidly falling apart due to enemy
biologics.

We had the full support of the local government, 
but it was still a major effort to maintain security
get the raw materials for the mods,the modifications done, the
chosen on board, the ship safely into orbit, and clear 

It was a very moving moment when we farewelled the local military
commander who was protecting the starfield, the classic salute, and
"Carry on, Major", both of us knowing full well that he and his
troops were going to die as we launched.

Dodging panicked SDBS, and incoming hostiles on the way out, and then we
had a week in jump with an overloaded ship full of refugees, not all of
whom were acting that grateful for their rescue.

As someone else said, C.J. Cherryh's Downbelow Station is
perfect to capture the feel of this sort of situation.

Frankie

    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:10:13 +1200
From: frankie@mundens.gen.nz (Frank G. Pitt)
Subject: Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation

In article <01bd66bb$926a4f00$LocalHost@Mark.dk-online.dk>,
"Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk> wrote:
>Sun, 12 Apr 1998 15:45:44 -0700 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>>
>>  Is there a better way for Hivers to communicate with those unable to >"read"
>>finger-wriggles?

Well, all our hiver-provided "universal translators"
came complete with olfactory and visual generators.

Basically, Hiver was a very useful battle language
for those of us that "spoke" it.
 
Still, there is a dance club in the galaxy where
sophonts do "the hand jive", but where any
hiver-speaker will see a whole floor of dancers
"saying" in unison "Tonight we kill the ambassador?"

Long story....

- -- 
Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:41:16 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

At 8:37 AM -0400 04/19/1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:
>Well Bloo,
>
>This was the basis for at least one unpublished GDW MegaTraveller adventure.

>>
>>Of course the real reason is I want to use this to move my players forward
>>through time periodically.
>>
>>But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that people
>>would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will >sell
>>it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
>>companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.  That
>>creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
>>discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level of
>>labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an empire.

This is also the basis for Steve Miller's IG adventure "The Sleepers" in T4
book 9, Anomalies.   The players find a long-term cryochamber from the end
of the Rule of Man.

I would think the odds of dying in coldsleep would be the big deterrant to
this as a routine way to store yourself away to make money.  Also, If I
were a local gummint, I'd tax the pants off anyone too frozen to vote
(unless Meatlocker, LIC made space for the politicos for free...)
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:09:10 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Product Review

At 09:43 AM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
>where can we get the programs?

They are avalible from Logicrucible.

http://www.logicrucible.com/index.html

Both programs come in a package for about $65.  Well worth it.
- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Strategy is the art of making use of time  |
|  and space.  I am less concerned about the  |
|  latter than the former.  Space we can      |
|  recover, lost time never."                 |
|         -Napoleon Bonaparte, French soldier |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:01:38 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

At 05:14 AM 4/19/98 -0400, you wrote:

>An example:
>
>Year 0    Age 30
>Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth maintenance).
>Enter low berth.
>
>Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
>Exit Low Berth
>Sell Stock,
>Invest in real estate on Sylea.
>Have fun for a year.

Year 51, Age 30
Reneter Low Berth

Year 55, Age 30
Get pulled from berth to discover that your money manager has embezzeled
everything, and skipped with a starship bought on your credit.  You owe
Generica Shipyards 48 MCr.  Due Now.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:50:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Artificial Gravity

Frank G. Pitt wrote:

> In article <01BD6A09.F803F220@RANDOMWALK.hartwick.edu>,
> "Walter G. Smith" <smithw@hartwick.edu> wrote:
> >Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >The question becomes what the conditions inside the vessel are if they use
> >AG in this way.
> >
> >If, however, they are using uniform G fields to produce these effects, then
> >it is good to know how the tides behave inside your ship near the grav plates.
> >
> >The above demonstrates that if the grav plates generate an even remotely
> >uniform field, edge effects can be ignored.  Especially if they can pinch
> >the field edges to minimize edge effects, or if they extend it a few meters
> >beyond the ship's hull.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >In Alan Dean Foster's excellent book _Icerigger_, they start out in the bar
> >of a starliner. One of the heroes of the story is certain that he has found
> >a flaw in the artificial gravity of the liner - that the interference between the
> >nodes should allow him to jump off the bar and touch the ceiling. He is
> >rather drunk, and is testing his theory by leaping off the bar and crashing
> >into bottle racks, patrons and ship security officers. Rather entertaining...
> >
> >ObTrav: Remember that most of the grav plates on a starship don't have
> >to stay at 1G. Want to give someone motion sickness with a series of
> >minute grav field changes? Or gain some advantage with an unexpected
> >dose of Zero G?
>
> Hey, the grav plates are part of the security system on our ship.
>
> Guy making trouble ?
>
> Hit him with 6G. Then -6G.
> Bang, Crack, Bang, Crack....
>
> "Had enough, perp ? Or do you want more of the roller coaster ?"
>
> "Ok, control, normal G, he's had enough."
>
> People boarding ?
>
> "Control ? Squad in corridor 6A, float 'em on my mark. 3, 2, 1,, mark !
>  OK, bring 'em down hard

OK, presumption 1.
The enemy ship has grappled yours to enable boarders to actually get into your ship.
Implication, you aren't capable of warding off said ship.
Implication, Maneuver drive is down, power plant probably down, etc.
Question: How do you have artificial gravity without power?

Presumption 2.
Boarding procedure would require a means of crossing the space between ships.
Typically, this implements grav belts.
Grav belts would negate  the ping pong effect

Presumption 3.
Resistance is futile.
If you attack the boarders, the enemy ship is likely to cut their losses and vaporize
your ship.  Who's got the last laugh now?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:54:03 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 11:10 pm 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>         Doesn't matter. Two points at different distances wille
have exactly
>> the same charge/gravity ... at *ANY* point anywhere in the
fictional
>> universe, the gravity will be exactly identical. There's _no_
height
>> dependence in the equation:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>
>I think you're using the wrong formula.

	*Sigh* nope. Do the integration, or look up the recent message where
someone did it for you. For an infinite plane, that is the correct
formula. There is *no* height dependence.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:03:19 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> >Low berths or medical fast drug.
> >Keven
> >
> What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for recharge).  The
> low berths are already battery powered and you can get a couple of blankets
> of solar panels (take up less space) and unroll them on the surface of the
> ship.  You then need to run the power leads down to sickbay and tie them in.
> At higher tech levels that may mean only a couple of square feet of solar
> panels and they are cheap.  That's the ticket, problem solved.  That's what
> I'm going to do IMTU.
> Thom
> 
 See any stars in deep interstellar space?

Nice idea, tho...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:06:30 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> >Since you can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' object
> >(and by large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the computer
> >would probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters away
> >from the gas giant.  And if you told the computer to ignore the gas giant
> >anyways, the drive would bring you out someplace beyond the 100 diameter
> limit.
> >
> >Keven
> >
> 100% correct!  These are built in protections and Marc has commented on the
> 100 diameter region previously.  You should be perfectly safe unless you
> have a catastrophic roll of the die and even then there are still some
> protections in place.  You would have to blow two or more rolls to wind up
> in the center of the gas giant.  If that should happen have a bronze
> memorial plate made up and put in orbit around the gas giant to show your
> respect.

If you come out in the center of a gas giant, I'd think there'd be a helluva explosion.  And who'd know you did if you come out in said gas giant?  No survivors to tell anyone, and who'd be *looking* to see?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:10:41 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

Hey, Thom, *PLEASE* post in straight ASCII.  Some of us (including myself) 
*DON'T* use Netscape to do our mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:15:12 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks 

> Alan Peery <peery@io.com> wrote:
> 
> >I don't know about the new rules, but I wouldn't take the Gazelle as
> >a pointer to earlier design rules.  If memory serves it carries a
> >particle accelerator barbette, and High Guard rules didn't allow
> >barbettes on ships of less than 1000 tons...
> 
> IIRC the limit was on *bays* not barbettes?
> 
> There were MT designs which allowed 1 bay per 1000 dT or part of.

Holdovers from CT, which specifies 1 HP per 100 displacement tons *OR* 1
weapons bay per 1000.

Couple design errors in Adventure Class Ships Vol 1 had weapons bays AND
hardpoints in an illegal mix, then claimed the ship could whip anything in its
size class.  Kinda like bringing an Ingram to a kung fu match...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 09:31:35 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Product Review

If anyone wants Terralogicus for cheap (say, $20), I'll gladly sell them
mine.  I've used it all of never.  Just e-mail me privately
(bmays@genscope.com).

Brian

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of
>warlock@imagin.net
>Sent: Sunday, April 19, 1998 8:50 AM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Re: Product Review
>
>
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>> I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs from
>> Logicrucible.  Buy them.  Thank you.
>
>I just took a look, folks and...wow!
>
>No, that's not quite right.
>
>WOW! THIS STUFF'S INCREDIBLE!!
>
>Doug is right; check them out!
>
>--
>Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
>Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
>CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:47:05 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)


>Hey, Thom, *PLEASE* post in straight ASCII.  Some of us (including myself)
>*DON'T* use Netscape to do our mail!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Keven
>
Sorry partner, I sometimes have brain farts and forget to set it back to
plain text when in the TML mail. I'll try to be more careful. ;)
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 12:45:02 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation

Ok, I've got plenty of time. These type of stories are (almost) the best
part of the list, since they usually find there way IMTU even if only as
urban legends.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Newsgroups: list.traveller
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 11:46 AM
Subject: Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation

>Still, there is a dance club in the galaxy where
>sophonts do "the hand jive", but where any
>hiver-speaker will see a whole floor of dancers
>"saying" in unison "Tonight we kill the ambassador?"
>
>Long story....
>
>--
>Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:00:07 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

>> Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
>> *completely* over a volume.

>>There's a diagram *and* explanation in Forward's book. The technique is
>>already in use for work in space that needs *real* zero g

Do you have a reference for this being in use already? Like a mission
name? I've never heard of it...though I do remember Forward using this
in "Dragon's Egg".

Bruce
/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:04:59 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

- -----Original Message-----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question


>> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>>
>> Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?
>
>No, at least IMTU.
>
>> It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed,
>
>Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
>realizing your investments along the way?
>
>Chris
>semo@pil.net
>
Several reasons:

 1. Anagathics are not without serious drawbacks.
     a) hard to find
     b) long term usage effects on the body (reactions)
     c) you are still awake awaiting investments to roll in
         which means you have more expenses (probably)

 2. While you sleep in "chill storage" 10 days you only age 4 hours.
     several long hauls (a year +) could allow your investments to mature.

 3. The odds of problems in "chill storage" versus "cold storage" are
      relatively miniscule so that makes it significantly safer.

All of this of course hinges on the Game Master's approval and should
percentage wise turn out more in your favor if lets say you had to leave the
game for a while.  You make some investments (with his/her approval) and
just jump into "chill storage" for the duration that you are out of the
game.  You
return, collect your investments and arrange (hopefully preplanned) to meet
your fellow Travellers at the appointed place and time.

I've done this for a number of my PC's in the past.
Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #409
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 19 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 410



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

quantum computers
RE: Product Review
Re: Product Review
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Product Review
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Product Review
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU 
Re: Product Review
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Product Review
Re: Really cool item I saw in the news today...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 10:21:23 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: quantum computers

>The first quantum computers have already been built,
>(by IBM) and several models are already patented, such as the
>design that has made RSA encryption obsolete and unsafe.
This is something of an overstatement - the closest to a quantum
computer currently tested is something that can do a four-element
search (find one item out of a list of four) in half the operations 
that a conventional computer could. Not (as yet) particularly
useful.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 11:01:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: RE: Product Review

At 09:31 AM 4/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>If anyone wants Terralogicus for cheap (say, $20), I'll gladly sell them
>mine.  I've used it all of never.  Just e-mail me privately
>(bmays@genscope.com).

And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:02:55 -0400
From: Major Robert Forbes <DHist151@highlinecorp.com>
Subject: Re: Product Review

At 09:43 19/04/98 -0500, you wrote:
>where can we get the programs?

At	http://www.logicrucible.com/index.html

> I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs 
>from Logicrucible.

Rand Gurish
Intrepid Band of Adventurers

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:51:44 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

>The more frequent your hops forward the more likely you are to loose at the
>"Lottery" and wind up dead! All in all, I'd rather use analgesics than go to
>									~~~~~~~~~
>sleep in a little tube knowing there was a good chance of not waking up! Low

Analgesics? And yet another use for that miracle drug called aspirin is 
found! "Honey, quick, call up my broker and buy all the Beyer stock you
can find!"

Or are you saying that the idea of cold sleep gives you a headache? <g>


**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:16:39 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> An example:
> 
> Year 0    Age 30
> Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth maintenance).
> Enter low berth.

Yeah, but someone who really plays the market probably wouldn't go for
something like this.  When he wakes up, Zhunastu might have gone belly-up.

 > Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
> Exit Low Berth
> Sell Stock,
> Invest in real estate on Sylea.
> Have fun for a year.

Again, real-estate values can change drastically in 5 or 10 years, let
alone 50+ years.

I'm not trying to merely be contrary here, although it may look that way
:^)  Seriously, I think anagathics would be the way to go for someone who's
serious about making large quantities of money. 

> Of course the real reason is I want to use this to move my players forward
> through time periodically.

Well if that's the reason, it should work (there are a couple of examples
in TNE that support such an idea).

> But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that people
> would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will sell
> it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
> companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.  That
> creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
> discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level of
> labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an empire.

You have to look at it the other way.  If you go into "storage" for 50
years, the world will be completely different when you come out.  Imagine
somebody going into low berth in 1948 and then waking up in 1998...  A
very, very different world, and all of the money in the world isn't going
to make that any easier.  Anagathics, on the other hand, can allow you to
live for a very, very long time, and it gives you the flexibility of
adjustment to changing times and politics, and the chance to make more
money by keeping an eye on the stock market, keeping an eye on real estate
values, etc.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:19:40 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Product Review

dberry@hooked.net spake unto us thusly:
>
> At 09:43 AM 4/19/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >where can we get the programs?
> 
> They are avalible from Logicrucible.
> 
> http://www.logicrucible.com/index.html
> 
> Both programs come in a package for about $65.  Well worth it.

Doug, do you know if text files can be linked to worlds
and star systems? In other words, can we attach our own
notes files ala Galactic 2.3? Also, is it possible to
add symbols in a planetary hex, such as ASCII characters?

(See what you get for doing a review? :-) )

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:10:57 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

Yeah! Doing too many things at once (and being rather poor at spelling even
when I do pay attention!) does give me a headache! However, maybe aspirin
has properties that our mundane tech level 9 can understand! Just wait a
couple
'a 'hunnard years and you'll be sorry!

P.S. Anyone have any idea why the spell checker is disabled on my version of
Outlook Express (4.71), Haven't been able to get the pesky thing to work
since I installed it!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul D. Owensby <pauld@athens.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 3:03 PM
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question


>>The more frequent your hops forward the more likely you are to loose at
the
>>"Lottery" and wind up dead! All in all, I'd rather use analgesics than go
to
>> ~~~~~~~~~
>>sleep in a little tube knowing there was a good chance of not waking up!
Low
>
>Analgesics? And yet another use for that miracle drug called aspirin is
>found! "Honey, quick, call up my broker and buy all the Beyer stock you
>can find!"
>
>Or are you saying that the idea of cold sleep gives you a headache? <g>
>
>
>**********************************************************
>Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
>ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
>Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
>Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
>IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
> kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
> jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:32:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

> From: Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>
>  1. Anagathics are not without serious drawbacks.
>      a) hard to find
>      b) long term usage effects on the body (reactions)
>      c) you are still awake awaiting investments to roll in
>          which means you have more expenses (probably)

I guess this is a difference in playing styles.  I don't think that they'd
be as hard to find as old school Traveller seemed to think (since I think
they'll be synthesized, and not the juice from a gland in a tree kraken,
available on only one world in the Spinward Marches and the like).

>  2. While you sleep in "chill storage" 10 days you only age 4 hours.
>      several long hauls (a year +) could allow your investments to
mature.
> 
>  3. The odds of problems in "chill storage" versus "cold storage" are
>       relatively miniscule so that makes it significantly safer.

Never having seen "chill storage" and "cold storage" before an earlier
message today, this couldn't have entered into my thinking at all.

> All of this of course hinges on the Game Master's approval and should
> percentage wise turn out more in your favor if lets say you had to leave
the
> game for a while.  You make some investments (with his/her approval) and
> just jump into "chill storage" for the duration that you are out of the
> game.  You
> return, collect your investments and arrange (hopefully preplanned) to
meet
> your fellow Travellers at the appointed place and time.

Well hey, whatever works, y'know.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:20:03 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

> From: Volker A. Greimann <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
>
> > Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long
life,
> > realizing your investments along the way?
> Because the anagathicsthemselves will eat up all profit! They are
extreeeeemely
> expensive!

I know that they're expensive, but we're talking about somebody with money
here.  Big money.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:13:47 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Product Review

dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> At 09:31 AM 4/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >If anyone wants Terralogicus for cheap (say, $20), I'll gladly sell them
> >mine.  I've used it all of never.  Just e-mail me privately
> >(bmays@genscope.com).
> 
> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
Why piracy?
He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell 
software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep a copy on you
hard drive...
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 14:01:38 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Sat, 18 Apr 98 23:57:07 -0500, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
>IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
>floating around in even the emptyest hexes...

I am assuming you mean comets thrown out of stellar orbit and stuff
and not "Dark Matter" as in speculative matter postulated to exlain
current astronomical observations and theories.

>and if you can find a chunk
>you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
>year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
>days searching for a nice big snowball.

I agree they should search.  I all depends on luck and GM kindness.
Space if pretty empty and the odds of something being in sensor range
are _very_ small.  OTOH, it could be the basis for GM indulgence.

>Let's say it's a Staggering Task (8hr) of Sensor Skill to detect a chunk of
>matter, so your crew has 3 chances a day to find something. (I'm not
>completely happy with the sensor rules, they don't really cover this
>situation, but at a point like this you're talking GM-plot point anyway.)

I would roll something like 1% (I'm being generous is you want to
be realistic, though if not you could up that) to see if there is
anything there for them to find.  Then I would roll a difficult task
for them to find it (once per day perhaps).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:11:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Sun, 19 Apr 1998 05:15:20 -0400, Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>

>> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
>> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
>> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
>> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
>> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
>> days searching for a nice big snowball.
>
>How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?

IIRC, less than a fraction of a light-year.  Additionally, you
could be in the middle of it and still have a very low chance of
having one in detector range.

There are comets and stuff thrown out of stars all the time and
they will occure in interstellar space.  However, the density is
_very_ low.  Similarly, I don't know if the theory of stellar
system formation prohibits this, but the possibility exists of
a failed stellar system that was too low in mass.  (It collapsed
into a gas giant surrounded by a few moons rather than into
a star).  But these would be _very_ rare also.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:20:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU 

Sun, 19 Apr 1998 08:06:51 +0000, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
[stuff we don't disagree on deleted...]
>> >  And if your ship has fuel scoops, and your
>> >engineer's good enough, you can *concieveably* refuel the ship by
>>scooping up
>> >all those lone hydrogen atoms in interstellar space.

>> No chance, you couldn't even built up enough pressure to push the
>> hydrogen into the tank.  (Actually, I have heard it claimed that
>> the concept is fundamentally flawed because the drag the hydrogen
>> causes would be more than the thrust you get out of it.

>1, you're not looking for *thrust*, you're looking for *fuel*.

The point is that if you are scooping in significant amouns of
hydrogen you are getting significants amount of drag.  Your
ship will effentually slow down to match the mean velocity
of the matter in the area.

>> >  IIRC, there's something
>> >on the order of *one* hydrogen atom in every cubic centimeter in
>>interstellar
>> >space, and ramscoop speeds are on the order of 1000 km/sec.

>> They are also a lot bigger than the fuel scoops you use for a gas
>> giant and don't rely on pressure to force the hydrogen into a tank.
>
>2.  That's where the 'good enough engineer' comes in.  If he can rig up a 200
>km+ wide ramscoop (or a magnetic field 200km wide, that is!!), I don't see
>why
>the ship couldn't get a *trickle* of hydrogen into the tanks.

Aside from the drag, I doubt a starship has the materials for this.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 16:16:18 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Product Review

At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...

>Why piracy?
>He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
>He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell 
>software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
a copy on you
>hard drive...

Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
products.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:18:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

At 05:14 AM 19/04/98 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>
>Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>> > From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>> >
>> > Does aging occur in low berth?  Is it slowed down or completely halted?
>>
>> No, at least IMTU.
>>
>> > It seems to me that is aging is substantially slowed, those who can
>> > afford it
>> > would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
>> > investments.  Etc.
>>
>> Why do that when you can use anagathics and live an extremely long life,
>> realizing your investments along the way?
>
>An example:
>
>Year 0    Age 30
>Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth maintenance).
>Enter low berth.
>
>Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
>Exit Low Berth
>Sell Stock,
>Invest in real estate on Sylea.
>Have fun for a year.
>
>Year 51   Age  31
>Enter low berth.
>
>Year 100 Age 31
>Exit low berth.
>Sell real estate on Sylea.
>Buy a Countship or Baronry.
>Try to spend all the money before you die.
>
>
>
>Of course the real reason is I want to use this to move my players forward
>through time periodically.
>
>But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that people
>would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will sell
>it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
>companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.  That
>creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
>discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level of
>labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an empire.

Well if M:0 is anything like similar periods of expansion in our history
there will be a fairly high bankruptcy rate, and many swindles, get rich
quick schemes, and so on. This means that you could reasonably enforce a
reasonably high chance that when they come out of the cold their
investments aren't as healthy as expected. There's also a chance that the
low berth providers quietly take their money and never wake them up, or are
swindlers, etc. Likewise whoevers managing their estate while they're
'asleep'. 

Somw worlds might do like Larry Niven did in _World Out of Time_ and say
that anyone in a low berth for more than, say, 20 years is legally dead, or
at least loses title to their possesions. I imagine that the heirs to the
estate would be all for that. 

I don't see this as being common, as TNE articles in the late 1120s mention
long sleep clubs as becoming popular. This being news-worthy implies that
they normally weren't common or popular. Another reason it can't be common
in the canon universe is that it would've put a huge brake on the
Imperium's development, because the 'sleepers' would be giving very
conservative investment instructions to their investors. This would explain
some of the 3I's poor decsions, but if ti was significant historians
would've noted it as a cause - mind you the significance of fusion+ somehow
also escaped their notice :(.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 18:46:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On 04/19/98 at 02:01 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>Sat, 18 Apr 98 23:57:07 -0500, eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
>>Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
>>IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
>>floating around in even the emptyest hexes...

>I am assuming you mean comets thrown out of stellar orbit and stuff and
>not "Dark Matter" as in speculative matter postulated to exlain current
>astronomical observations and theories.

Yes, I mean things like comets..although chunks strike me as a better term
for them..as well as miscellanious pieces of condensed matter. Although,
the cometary belts might not extend across intersteller space I think it is
more likely than not that various dark objects are floating around
throughout space.  The "Dark Matter" of cosmology is something else
entirely. ;->

>>and if you can find a chunk
>>you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
>>year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
>>days searching for a nice big snowball.

>I agree they should search.  I all depends on luck and GM kindness. Space
>if pretty empty and the odds of something being in sensor range are _very_
>small.  OTOH, it could be the basis for GM indulgence.

That depends on sensor sensitivity, ranges and the amount of space
searched, obviously.  Bruce's rules look like you could scan pretty huge
volumes.  The *big* problem would be getting to whatever you found..T4's
version of TPlate thrusters are next to worthless in deep space, and
reaction engines need reaction mass...the very thing you are short of.

>>Let's say it's a Staggering Task (8hr) of Sensor Skill to detect a chunk of
>>matter, so your crew has 3 chances a day to find something. (I'm not
>>completely happy with the sensor rules, they don't really cover this
>>situation, but at a point like this you're talking GM-plot point anyway.)

>I would roll something like 1% (I'm being generous is you want to be
>realistic, though if not you could up that) to see if there is anything
>there for them to find.  Then I would roll a difficult task for them to
>find it (once per day perhaps).

Well, as I said...in my TU. ;-> Obviously, intersteller space is somewhat
less empty in mine than yours..probably less than RW too, but that's still
an open question.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 18:55:49 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On 04/19/98 at 05:15 AM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?

There is some debate about just how far out it extends, but I think current
thought is that it only extends out a few light months. Yes, it would have
a goodly number of snowballs, still thinly spread...but there.

Beyond the Oort Cloud, in open intersteller space, there are still probably
swarms of snowballs, chunks of primortial matter, as well as matter spun
off from  star systems, and who knows what all.  Very thin, but still out
there and whether it's thick enough to find anything or not is pretty much
up to the GM..IMTU, and IMO. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 19:16:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Product Review

On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> >> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
> 
> >Why piracy?
> >He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
> >He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell 
> >software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
> a copy on you
> >hard drive...
> 
> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.

If he bought the media, then he can legally sell the media.  Copyright
is only the right to copy.  You can not put a license on a physical
object.  I talked at great length with an intellectual property lawyer
about this.  This is the same as if you buy a book you can resell the
book even though you don't own the copyright.  They can not restrict
your rights with regards to the book itself.  In the Fifth Circuit
(including Texas, Louisiana, and several other states), those licenses
which you "agree" to by opening the package have been found to not be
binding.  When you buy software, you are bound by the local, state, and
federal laws regarding copyrighted software, *not* whatever they
happen to put on the shrinkwrap.  Now, you might be able to argue that
the second person who buys the software doesn't have any right to make
a copy on their hard drive to run the program, but if the first person
really does delete the software and sells it to a second person and
the second person behaves as though bound by copyright law covering
software, then I don't see the problem.  I really doubt a court would
find that this was harming the company nor that it was a violation of
the copyright.  I seriously doubt Logicrucible would have a problem
with someone reselling their software as long as the sellor doesn't
keep a copy for his own use.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:24:10 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Really cool item I saw in the news today...

Yeah,
    It's really cool and there are a number of companies
that are coming up with novel applications for this technology.

Eric
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, April 08, 1998 5:53 PM
Subject: Really cool item I saw in the news today...


>'Electronic Paper'
>
>http://www.nytimes.com/library/arts/040898book.html
>(needs free registration)
>
>http://www.almaden.ibm.com/journal/sj/363/jacobson.html
>(free)
>
>They have developed a system of 'electronic ink' that can be bonded to
>paper, and via appropriate applications of electric signals, turn bits on
>and off.  They are bistable, meaning they stay whichever way you last
>flipped them. You can 'print' a book on these pages, and have all the
>advantages of a real book, with all the advantages of an electronic
>display.
>
>wow...I want one of these!
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #410
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 411



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Repai
Re: Repai
Re: Repai
Re: Request for Comments.......
Re: Space  Travel, RL
Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation
Re: Product Review
Re: Product Review
Re: Low Berth Canon Question
Re: Stand by for Boarding
Re: Product Review
Re: Product Review
Re: Product Review
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Jumpspace

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:52:10 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Repai

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Repai


>In mail you write:

>We've hit the limit with analog modems. 33.6k. The 56k is using a
>*digital* return path. And it's pretty much a limit also.


This is a strictly artificial limit, exceeded at will by any area
that has started installing xDSL services (which of course vary in
speed and other aspects).  Speeds in excess of 8Mega bits per second
are achievable.  My local phone company will start selling the
service to home users as soon as some type of standard emerges.

>And we are within sight of the point where quantum effects start
>screwing up chip designs. 


Yeah, but now the chip designers are starting to utilize those 
effects to transfer data along signal paths.  The wave like 
characteristics of electrons allows much smaller data paths.
Quantum well diodes, and single electron transistors are 
beginning to see the light of day. 

Researchers are even looking to building chips that have 
optical interconnects, enabling a single optical conductor 
on a chip to pass hundreds of different signals at the 
same time.

Limits aren't really limits if there is a way to go around them.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:58:02 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Repai

The goal by many companies is the "System on a Chip".
This is a very big thing right now and will probably 
be available within 1 to 2 years in consumer appliances.

Everything is on a single chip, the CPU, Graphics Chip,
Audio Chip, Memory, DSP...  

Actually their all on separate chips that have been 
sandwiched together, one on top of the other.

Can you say, wristwatch computer?  With full color video
and even audio?  Wireless connections to external 
keyboards, full screen displays, and audio amps?

Quite an interesting time ahead in the computer industry.

Eric

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, April 16, 1998 7:37 AM
Subject: Re: Repai


>>And we are within sight of the point where quantum effects start
>>screwing up chip designs.
>
>The manufacturers will put several CPUs on each chip. This is already done
>today with the multiple execution units in RISC chips. In 10 years the
>standard CPU might run at a few GHz but perhaps 16-64 CPUs in it.
>
>
>/Anders Backman
>Aniware AB
>anders.backman@aniware.se
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:01:24 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Repai

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se>

>The manufacturers will put several CPUs on each chip. This is already done
>today with the multiple execution units in RISC chips. In 10 years the
>standard CPU might run at a few GHz but perhaps 16-64 CPUs in it.


Researchers have come up with the fastest transistor on the planet.  They
_think_ it has a max switching speed of 10 Tera Hertz.  There isn't any 
test equipment fast enough to time it.  It works off only a few microvolts
and only pulls a few pico amps.  Can you say 1THz CPU that only needs half
a volt for operation?  That would be cool.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:52:31 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Request for Comments.......

- -----Original Message-----
From: james a clem <warmind@juno.com>

>I'd like your input on something.  I am toying with using a fiber optic
>system on ships to allow a centrally located (and thus protected) laser
>generator to discharge through focal arrays placed about the hull.  This
>would allow smaller ships to mount fewer lasers, and the focal arrays
>would use only small turrets compared with the standards and still get
>coverage they might need.  I know little about fiber optics, so please
>anyone out there comment.


Hmm, I just saw a note in EETimes about a military test firing a 7.36kW 
beam through 6 feet of 900uM diameter fiber (That was 7.36kW emmitted
power, doesn't say what the input was).  The beam then went on to cut 
through .5 inches of stainless steel plate.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:59:35 -0400
From: "Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Space  Travel, RL

- -----Original Message-----
>   NASA didn't fair well under Carter either.  The VP usally drives the
Space
>Program policy.  Mondale was never a NASA supporter and had tried to kill
>the Apollo program when he was a senator.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


Really?  I just heard a really good one.  In EETimes there is an article
about space based laser weapons.  Clinton is planning on putting up a
constellation of them for protection against ballistic missiles.  Who woulda
thunk it?

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:13:19 -0400
From: Major Robert Forbes <DHist151@highlinecorp.com>
Subject: Re: Automated Human-Hiver translation

I thought that I would die laughing at that story.  Reminds me of that 
hilarious hiver cartoon in JTAS #9.  I've got the time, too...

At 12:45 19/04/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Ok, I've got plenty of time. These type of stories are (almost) the best
>part of the list, since they usually find there way IMTU even if only as
>urban legends.
>
>
>>Still, there is a dance club in the galaxy where
>>sophonts do "the hand jive", but where any
>>hiver-speaker will see a whole floor of dancers
>>"saying" in unison "Tonight we kill the ambassador?"
>>
>>Long story....


Major R. W. Forbes
Director of History 
151 Chadburn Squadron
Royal Canadian Air Cadets

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 21:27:59 -0500
From: "James Cook" <jcook@net-serv.com>
Subject: Re: Product Review

Uhh, Dave....if he sells his one copy (that he presumably bought), and erases it
from his machine upon selling it, he is not commiting software piracy. If he sold
his copy, and continued to use it on his own machine, however, he would be guilty
as charged. Your own statement "you have bought the right to place one copy on
one computer" agrees with this. As a software developer, I have somewhat of a stake
in the issue. This person is not guilty.

Thanks,
James Cook

- ----------
> From: dberry@hooked.net
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Re: Product Review
> Date: Sunday, April 19, 1998 6:16 PM
> 
> At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> >> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
> 
> >Why piracy?
> >He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
> >He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell 
> >software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont
keep
> a copy on you
> >hard drive...
> 
> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.
> --
> 
> +-------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
> |    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
> +-------------------------------------+
> | "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
> |  to be a non-conformist too."       |
> |                      -Lenny Bruce   |
> +-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:17:04 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Product Review

At 07:33 PM 4/19/98 -0500, Douglas wrote:
<Snip>...
>Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
>right to place one copy on one computer.  ...

If you sell your copy, are you not relinquishing your right and
transferring that right to the buyer?  I've looked a a number of (game)
licenses and none of them seem to restrict transferring that right.  The
point seems to me to be that SOMEbody has the right to place ONE copy on
ONE computer.  If you transfer/sell that right, how do you violate the
license agreement?  Of course, I write this without having looked at
LogiCrucible's licensing agreement...



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:24:17 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon Question

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> > An example:
> >
> > Year 0    Age 30
> > Invest all assets in Zhunastu Industries Stock (and low berth
> maintenance).
> > Enter low berth.
>
> Yeah, but someone who really plays the market probably wouldn't go for
> something like this.  When he wakes up, Zhunastu might have gone belly-up.

Of course, risk is always a factor (and why you'd have to prepay).  You could
have the security of your investments tracked while you're in coldsleep.  A
good mutual fund type arrangement will give you good odds that your investments
will substantially increase, of course assuming relatively stable market over
the long term.

>  > Year 50  Age 30 (and a day or so)
> > Exit Low Berth
> > Sell Stock,
> > Invest in real estate on Sylea.
> > Have fun for a year.
>
> Again, real-estate values can change drastically in 5 or 10 years, let
> alone 50+ years.

I gave that example because real estate rarely depreciates.  And real estate on
a capital world especially.

> I'm not trying to merely be contrary here, although it may look that way
> :^)  Seriously, I think anagathics would be the way to go for someone who's
> serious about making large quantities of money.

But they are expensive today and you have to wait subjective time..

> > But in general, if this process is allowable, it only makes sense that
> people
> > would pay for the service, and if someone will pay for it, someone will
> sell
> > it.  And if someone will sell it, someone will tax it.  You could have
> > companies in which a majority of the shareholders were in low berth.
> That
> > creates huge problems wrt management of resources, etc.  How do you
> > discourage people from doing this?  After all, you need some basic level
> of
> > labor to keep everything functioning.  And especially to expand an
> empire.
>
> You have to look at it the other way.  If you go into "storage" for 50
> years, the world will be completely different when you come out.  Imagine
> somebody going into low berth in 1948 and then waking up in 1998...  A
> very, very different world, and all of the money in the world isn't going
> to make that any easier.

Not different enough, IMHO.  And for a government like the Imperium especially.
Sure, some of the players change sides, and new players come and old players
go, but the system is by and large the same.  For example, the modern map of
Europe is extremely similar to the one during the Treaty of Westphalia in the
16th century.  And think about Vilani culture.  Talk about a long-view culture
with an incredible stability.

>  Anagathics, on the other hand, can allow you to
> live for a very, very long time, and it gives you the flexibility of
> adjustment to changing times and politics, and the chance to make more
> money by keeping an eye on the stock market, keeping an eye on real estate
> values, etc.

Assuming you can afford them in the first place, maybe.  But who wants to add
on to the years towards the end of life?  Low berths are much mroe readily
available.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:39:56
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Stand by for Boarding

A
>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Re: Artificial Gravity
>
>Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>
>The enemy ship has grappled yours to enable boarders to actually get into
your ship.
>Implication, you aren't capable of warding off said ship.
>Implication, Maneuver drive is down, power plant probably down, etc.
>Question: How do you have artificial gravity without power?
>

Your emergency auxilary power supply - 14m3 of 1 hour release batteries
tucked somewhere in the ship. You always need that last point of power ...

>Presumption 2.
>Boarding procedure would require a means of crossing the space between ships.
>Typically, this implements grav belts.
>Grav belts would negate  the ping pong effect

Far as I can see, contragravity (used for grav belts) needs a local gravity
well to 'push' against. Artificial gravity seems to create a uniform field
between the floor and ceiling playes by the Grand Unified Handwave Theory.

If this is true, they probably used reaction packs of one sort or another
to cross.

>
>Presumption 3.
>Resistance is futile.
>If you attack the boarders, the enemy ship is likely to cut their losses
and vaporize
>your ship.  Who's got the last laugh now?

This is actually a doctrinal issue - in the age of sail, ships routinely
surrendered, somtimes changing hands 2 or three times during their useful
life. Once the ironclads came, ships were scuttled rather than risk capture.

Strategically, I can see it to be in the interests of the Navy as a whole
to have crews die rather than surrender their ship. OTOH, this isnt in the
interest of their crews.

Actually, I can see a compromise, somewhat similar to the way some of the
sieges went historically ... "If we can take and board you on the first 2
attempts, you become prisoners of war and we keep the ship. If you beat off
2 attempts at boarding, we let you either self-repair or scuttle, and we
will provide you with an honour guard to your nearest friendly base
together with the Imperial Portrait and your ship's battle honours."

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:41:24 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Product Review

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
> >> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
>
> >Why piracy?
> >He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
> >He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell
> >software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
> a copy on you
> >hard drive...
>
> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.

Can't figure out who it is, but the middle post here has got it basically
right.
The First Sale Doctrine allows you to sell a copy that you have already
legally purchased.
Its important to note that "copy," in copyright terms, doesn't imply that you
have perfomed the act of copying something.

"'Copies' are material objects, other than phonrecords, in which a work is
fixed by any method . . .and from which the work can be perceived, reporduced,
or otherwise communicated, either directly or with the aid of a machine."  17
U.S.C. Sec. 101.

The First Sale Doctrine is codifeid at 17 U.S.C Sec. 109:
"(a)  . . . [T]he owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made . .
. is entitled, without authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise
dispose of the posession of that copy or phonorecord."

So, what does that mean?  You can sell or give away your copy of a computer
program, BUT, you may not keep a reproduction of that work for yourself if you
do so.  If you do that, you've made an unauthorized reproduction, and you've
infringed the copyright.  If that program was worth more than $1500, even
doing this once subjects you to criminal copyright infringement.  Thats right,
Criminal!

In the end, it is not piracy if you do not keep a reproduction for yourself.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 00:49:39 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Product Review

Bolie Williams IV wrote:

> On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> > At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
> > >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> > >> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
> >
> > >Why piracy?
> > >He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
> > >He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell
> > >software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
> > a copy on you
> > >hard drive...
> >
> > Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> > right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> > containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> > small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> > products.
>
> If he bought the media, then he can legally sell the media.  Copyright
> is only the right to copy.  You can not put a license on a physical
> object.  I talked at great length with an intellectual property lawyer
> about this.  This is the same as if you buy a book you can resell the
> book even though you don't own the copyright.  They can not restrict
> your rights with regards to the book itself.

Yes.  This is the First Sale Doctrine.  (See my other post).

>  In the Fifth Circuit (including Texas, Louisiana, and several other states),
> those licenses
> which you "agree" to by opening the package have been found to not be
> binding.  When you buy software, you are bound by the local, state, and
> federal laws regarding copyrighted software, *not* whatever they
> happen to put on the shrinkwrap.

I wouldn't go quite that far.  They are 'not necessarily' binding.  They 'may'
be.  There is a whole host of issues involved in that determination.  Shrinkwrap
licenses in general, lean to the non-binding side of the equation because they
are non-negotiatied boiler plate that might have effected the decision to
purchase and/or the value of the product (because presumably software without a
license is more desirable; likewise, you'd pay less for a complicated license on
a product).

Circuits vary.  And they can change their own mind about an issue.  If you're
going to rely on circuit opinions on this kind of issue, you should probably
look to those heavily involved with computer industry: 9th (California) and the
1st (Massachusetts).


>  Now, you might be able to argue that
> the second person who buys the software doesn't have any right to make
> a copy on their hard drive to run the program, but if the first person
> really does delete the software and sells it to a second person and
> the second person behaves as though bound by copyright law covering
> software, then I don't see the problem.

This is essentially correct.  (see my other post).

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 98 23:47:25 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Product Review

On 04/20/98 at 12:17 AM,  Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com> said:

>>Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
>>right to place one copy on one computer.  ...

>If you sell your copy, are you not relinquishing your right and
>transferring that right to the buyer?  I've looked a a number of (game)
>licenses and none of them seem to restrict transferring that right.  The
>point seems to me to be that SOMEbody has the right to place ONE copy on
>ONE computer.  If you transfer/sell that right, how do you violate the
>license agreement?  Of course, I write this without having looked at
>LogiCrucible's licensing agreement...

There *is* a debate about what "the right to place one copy on one
computer" means, personally, I come down on the same side as Bill on this
one. 

IAC, bullet three of the Logicrucible License Agreement reads, in part,
"You may not rent, lease, or give away the SOFTWARE, but you may transfer
your rights to the SOFTWARE and accompanying materials, on a permanent
basis, provided (a) the recipient agrees to the terms of this agreement,
and (b) you retain no copies of the Software or accompanying materials."
So, selling it is perfectly OK.

Oh, about Astrologicus and Teralogicus...yes, they are very interesting,
but frankly, I haven't gotten much utility out of either for Traveller
games. I've ended up using Galactic much more.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:10:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

> David J. Golden wrote:
>
>> At 12:43 am 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a
>> uniform
>> >> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
>> >> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields
>> vary
>> >> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the
>> same.
>> >> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane
>> charge
>> >> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.
>> >
>> >I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a
>> plate, all points
>> >will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about
>> two points at
>> >different distances.
>>
>>         Doesn't matter. Two points at different distances wille have 
> exactly
>> the same charge/gravity ... at *ANY* point anywhere in the fictional
>> universe, the gravity will be exactly identical. There's _no_ height
>> dependence in the equation:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>
> I think you're using the wrong formula.

Sorry, but other posts have gone thru the *calculus* involved and come
up with that same formula *except they had the proper value for k).

> For  a point source:
> F=GMm/d^2
> F= Force of gravity
> G= Universal gravity constant
> M= Mass 1
> m= mass 2
> d= distance from point source
>
> Since we're dealing with a nonvarying gravity body and the ship isn't losing
> mass, GMm will be constant (we'll use K to represent this):
> F=K/d^2

You just made your first mistake. 

A=GM/D^2 for a *point* source. The mass of the ship doesn't enter into it.

When figuring the field of a *non*-point source, you have to figure for
each and every point *seperately*, which means that you figure the
attraction based *only* on the mass at that point.

Next, the attracting mass *does* vary with distance. That's why you
got the wrong answer. At height H above the plane, only an ifinitesmal
amount of mass is at distance H, that's the point directly under the
ship. A radius r from that point, you have "rings" of attracting mass,
and as r increases, the mass involved goes up as the *square* of the
radius. 

Since your calculations ignore this, there's no point going on. Check
the post that did the correct calculations.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:24:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

In mail you write:

> Now here's a thought: If the chance of misjump is as high as stated and
> there are many ships travelling in an area, it might be worthwhile for
> individuals to start a career as a salvage crew.  If a ship is more than 2
> months late, listed as missing, presumed misjumped, go looking in all the
> empty hexes for it.  Carry fuel for three jumps and a prize crew. Check
> each hex and take home ships.
>
> If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
> in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
> from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
> has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
> there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
> will be 140 ships large.

Slight problem. Misjumps can be as much as *36* parsecs. That screws up
this plan, but good.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:00:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

In mail you write:

>> One approach would be to require the jump fuel to be consumed in a
>> very, very, very short time (making it difficult to work with a hose
>> of any length),

> So just use more hoses. Drop tanks already channel all their fuel
> through a limited channel, hoses can use the same connection.

But they use *piping*, which can handle *much* higher pressures (and
thus flow rates) than a flexible hose.

>> and to introduce a significant chance that if anything is within a
>> few hundred meters of a ship going into jump Bad Things happen to
>> the object (though not to the ship) a small percentage of the time -
>> tolerable Bad Things for a drop tank, but not for an (expensive,
>> manned) tanker.

> If you can jettison a huge drop tank large enough to store all the jump
> fuel at once, why can't you jettison a simple hose that only has to carry a
> fraction of the fuel volume at a time?

> Why even use a hose at all? Just squirt the fuel into a big funnel
> outside the ship connected to the engines. You don't need a physical
> connection between the ship and tanker at all.

Try that with liquid hydrogen and you'll get a flow rate of *zero*.
It'll evaporate into the vacuum. And even if it *stayed* liquid, you
can't get a high enough flow rate under those circumstances. 

For one, this being zero g, the fuel will seperate into balls, and
since you are in a vacuum, there's no "suction" at the funnel to pull
the balls f fuel in. 

For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to *pump*
fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:19:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

In mail you write:

>>> Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
>>> *completely* over a volume.
>
>>>There's a diagram *and* explanation in Forward's book. The technique is
>>>already in use for work in space that needs *real* zero g
>
> Do you have a reference for this being in use already? Like a mission
> name? I've never heard of it...though I do remember Forward using this
> in "Dragon's Egg".

Well, the most likely looking reference given in the article is:

"Flattening Spacetime Near the Earth" Physical Review, vol D26, pp.
735-744 (15 August 1982)

It's one of Forward's articles. :-)

And it may not be in use after all. On re-reading, it looks like it
needs a steadier platform than the shuttle.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #411
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 412



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: older Traveller products
Re: older Traveller products
Re: Tracking Bullets
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Re: Repai
Re: Artificial Gravity
Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Product Review
Re: Tracking Bullets
Re: Product Review
Lumps of rock (was: Misjumps IMTU)
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: older Traveller products
Re: Tracking Bullets
Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 15:52:55 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: re: older Traveller products

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> banged out:
>>Closer to your new home is Excalibur Hobbies in Malden which has a very few 
>>older items (I mostly cleaned them out over the years, sorry) and a 
>>Compleat Strategist on Mass Ave in Boston which has at least the newer 
>>stuff and some MT books last time I was there. 
>I'm going to avoid Boston if at all possible, the streets are insane and
so are the drivers...:)

     Oh come on!  That's half the fun!  The real pain is the parking.  You
can get around that by parking at one of the outlying T (subway) stations.
You are park at Alewife at the edge of Cambridge, and take the Red line
straight into Harvard Square.  If you really don't want to drive in Boston,
pick up a book called Car Free in Boston.

   Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
(don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
rules while your at it.  



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 01:11:57 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> rules while your at it.  


This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 13:07:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: Tracking Bullets

Doug wrote;
>At 02:50 PM 4/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Much thanks to everyone on the TML who answered my questions
>>regarding the ability to track bullets and trajectories. I'd known 
>>about how we could follow artillery back, back did not realize
>>that we were truly that close to being able to pinpoint snipers and
>>the like. Thanks to the info, my player's lives are going to be
>>quite interesting this weekend <g>
>
>On a side note, the Redwood City (Ca) Police Department is experimenting
>with a city wide net of sensors that would detect gunshots, the triangulate
>the shooter's location and dispatch police.  Early on, the system was prone
>to count any large noise as a gunshot (a traffic jam on Woodside Rd
>evidently gave the computer a nervous breakdown), but they are expecting to
>have the system running by next New Years Eve.  This is important because
>of the lovely habit of many people of firing guns in the air at midnight,
>forgetting that those bullets have to land somewhere...

Of course, it will be in place and active about a week or so before 

1; some intrepid anarcho-capitalist hackers give the damn thing a case of
   the fits by breaking into the system and giving it a case of the
   ghost-shotguns... or set the parameters so that cars backfiring,
   fireworks, children's cap guns (those few left... water guns are, I
   suppose, safer), or even sound effects on TV or the local drive-in, set
   if off).

2; some intrepid freelancer socialists use some of the US Army's wonderful
   little distraction gadgets (the ones PsyOps made up that sound like
   gunfire) to overload the police system by tying up a bunch of patrol
   cars on bogus gunfire reports generated by the computer, then hitting a
   bank or three during the "crisis"

3; some intrepid social-engineers borrow some of the PsyOps gadgets and
   use them, over a period of weeks or months, to fill out so many bogus
   gunfire reporets that the cops get to the point where they don't trust
   the damn thing anymore (this is best mixed with number one, as that
   way there are totally bogus reports, and reports of guns fired but no
   one with a gun around. Eventually, even the Administration will ignore
   the damn thing.

But, then again, the Big Brother aspects of this kind of thing piss the
hell out of me.

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have 2400c, Will Travel

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:59:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

In mail you write:

> I thought that the oxygen created for the ship (when needed to supplement
> the scrubbers) came from the fuel supply.  That wouldn't be very much to
> turn back into fuel.

Nope, the fuel is liquid hydrogen, *not* water.

> What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for recharge).  The
> low berths are already battery powered and you can get a couple of blankets
> of solar panels (take up less space) and unroll them on the surface of the
> ship.  You then need to run the power leads down to sickbay and tie them in.
> At higher tech levels that may mean only a couple of square feet of solar
> panels and they are cheap.  That's the ticket, problem solved.  That's what
> I'm going to do IMTU.

Slight problem. Solar panels output depends *directly* on the amount of
light shining on them. If you've jumped into an "empty" hex, that light
is too feeble to power much of anything. You're a parsec from the
nearest star. A parsec is a bit over 200,000 AU. At one AU from a star
like Sol, you have about 1 kW per square meter of solar energy
available, but the panels can't get all of that. 80% efficiennt would
be damn good.

Now, at 200,000 AU the energy is 1/40,000,000,000th as strong. So you'd
have 25 *nano*watts per square meter. (25e-9). So to get 1 kW, you'd
need a 200 km square array of solar cells at 100% efficiency.

That's why probes going out past Mars don't use solar cells, but rely
on RTGs instead.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:10:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

In mail you write:

> I just have a question about the jump calculation.
>
> Ideally you come out of jump 100 diamters from target planet, right?

> To do this, you would need to have calculated the period of the
> planet's orbit and the diameter of the planet, and then predict where
> it will be.  So, this calculation would be an astrogation task.

> But what if the target planet is occluded by other objects in that
> target system (a gas giant, a star, an asteroid belt, etc.).  Could
> you then rely on library data after synching up the predicted
> positions by observation (i.e., observe target system, since planets
> X and Y are in relationship Z, jump to point A to arrive within 100
> diamters of planet B).

> Here's a good one:  say you want to target a small planet that is
> with 100 diameters of a huge gas giant, or will be at the time jump
> is completed.  Jump wouldn't be possible then would it?

Well, you'd have to come out at the 100 diameter of the gas giant and
then use manuever drive from there. 

But keep in mind how *big* planetary systems are. 100 Diameters from
even a huge gas giant isn't likely to come anywhere *near* another
planet. 

Jupiter is about 140,000 km in diameter. So 100 diameters is about 14
million km. But 1 AU is 150,000,000 km. So the 100 diameter limit is
less than a tenth of an AU. And planets don't get that close to each
other.
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:51:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Repai

In mail you write:

>>In mail you write:
>
>>We've hit the limit with analog modems. 33.6k. The 56k is using a
>>*digital* return path. And it's pretty much a limit also.
>
> This is a strictly artificial limit, exceeded at will by any area
> that has started installing xDSL services (which of course vary in
> speed and other aspects).  Speeds in excess of 8Mega bits per second
> are achievable.  My local phone company will start selling the
> service to home users as soon as some type of standard emerges.

It's only "artificial" in the sense that they are using *normal* phone
lines, which have a limited bandwidth to avoid interference between
lines, and to be able to work with all the other gear out there.

XDSL is *digital*, not analog, and it requires that a number of things
be done to the lines. You can't just install it on a normal phone line
without doing a lot of work.

The analog limit is set by Shannon's Law. And we *have* hit it. The
digital limits also have to deal with Shannon's Law too. It's just that
you figure bandwidth rather differently.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:44:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artificial Gravity

In mail you write:

> OK, presumption 1.
> The enemy ship has grappled yours to enable boarders to actually get into 
> your ship.
> Implication, you aren't capable of warding off said ship.
> Implication, Maneuver drive is down, power plant probably down, etc.
> Question: How do you have artificial gravity without power?

Nobody in their right mind would grapple to a hostile ship. It's *way*
too easy to pull the "suicide" bit and blast both ships to vapor.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 23:18:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions (pre-t4)

In mail you write:

> [rules for misjumps clipped]
>
> OK forget for a moment the probabilities of misjumping.  There are
> three possible results of a misjump: Ship is destroyed, you fly off
> to d6*d6 parsecs, or you arrive in your targetted system with a
> temporal hiccup.

The "temporal hiccup" seems to apply regardless of *where* you wind up.

> Destroying your ship and flying off to oblivion don't seem to be
> possible unless you really try for it, i.e. jump at 10 diameters and
> use unrefined fuel.

Remember the <100 diameter DM *and* the <10 diameter DM *both* apply
within 10 diameters. That tends to guarantee a "destroyed" result unles
you have some good DMs!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:40:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

In mail you write:

> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
> days searching for a nice big snowball. 
>
> Let's say it's a Staggering Task (8hr) of Sensor Skill to detect a chunk of
> matter, so your crew has 3 chances a day to find something. (I'm not
> completely happy with the sensor rules, they don't really cover this
> situation, but at a point like this you're talking GM-plot point anyway.)
> Once they find something, it might be 50-50 that it will be a useful chunk.
> If it is, great, if it's not they keep looking. Eventually, they hit
> "paydirt" and have to mine/refine and ready for another shot at jumping.  
>
> A misjump into an "empty hex" shouldn't be deadly or lead to "time out of
> time" adventures *every* time.  Many times it will delay the ship for weeks
> while they search for a iceball, throwing timetables off and disrupting
> schedules, but that's all.

Maybe Bruce or one of the other astronomy types can give us an estimate
for the average distance between 1 km, 100 meter, 10 meter, and 1 meter
snowballs in "free" space. Given that, we could come up with a table
for refs to use.

And heck, if you get lucky and find something a km or bigger, if it's
in an empty hex between a couple of "good trade" systems, if you can
chart the position well enough, you can establish a new "main". 

This would make misjump more survivable. Still, 1 in 36 *is* too high.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:45:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

In mail you write:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
>> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
>> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
>> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
>> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
>> days searching for a nice big snowball.
>
> How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?

There's the Kuiper Belt, which is a ways beyond Pluto. The Oort Cloud
is a lot farther out. We really need input from the astromers :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:31:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

In mail you write:

>>If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
>>in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump, then one in 1296 jumps
>>from starting point 'A' will be to a particular empty hex.  If a starport
>>has one launch a week for the past 100 years, there will be 4 derelics
>>there.  If it has had 14 launches a week for 500 years, then the dead fleet
>>will be 140 ships large.
>>Michael Croft
>>
> I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
> The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
> jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
> you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
> give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening.  Just
> my tenth of a credit's worth of input.

They must have *really* changed the mis-jump rules. In the Traveller
Book, these are the rules:

Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1-6); throw that
number of dice to determine the distance of the misjump in hexes. Then
throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six
directions possible on the hex grid). Finally, throw one die to
determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship
re-emerges at its new location.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:50:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Product Review

In mail you write:

> I recently ordered the Astrologicus and Terralogicus programs from
> Logicrucible.  Buy them.  Thank you.
>
> What?  You need more?  *grumble*
>
> These two programs are DOS-based universe and world building tools.
> Astrologicus (AL) starts with an entire galaxy, filled with clusters done
> in 3-D.  Pick a cluster, and it shows the local stars, pick a star, and it
> gives you a map of the system.  At each level you can name, modify, and
> note relevant detail about the cluster/system in question.
>
> Some nice touches include the Auto search feature that goes through a
> cluster and identifies all the systems with habitable worlds.  At the
> system level, you can zoom in on a planet and get details on its resources,
> weather, atmosphere, ecological zones, etc..
>
> The program takes up an astoundingly small amount of space for such a
> useful product.  since each galaxy has up to one thousand clusters, and
> each cluster can have hundreds of stars, you see the potential.
>
> Terralogicus (TL) is the companion piece.  A world mapper, it can be
> accessed by selecting a world in AL then zooming in closer.  The maps are
> Travelleresque polygons.  You can zoom in until the scale is about 1m/hex.
> While demonstrating this program for Kirsten the other night, we started at
> the galaxy level and by zooming in at random ended up looking down at a
> Quonset hut type building that was about 70m long.  All this information
> can be saved for later use.
>
> As with AL, you can alter the parameters for the planet you are mapping.
> The program takes each change into account as you make it, so the maps are
> very dynamic.
>
> System requirements?  Gee.. pretty steep.  You have to have an 8088
> processor, with 640k, DOS 3.3 or better.  They do recommend a 386 for those
> of us on the cutting edge :)
>
> Logicrucible is at:
>
> http://www.logicrucible.com/index.html
>
> Right now, they don't take orders over the web, so you'll have to phone
> them or send them a check.  But they were very helpful and sent me my order
> by US Priority Mail.
>
> I really can't say enough about these two utilities.  Go to the web site
> and give them a look.

You didn't give a price...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:56:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tracking Bullets

In mail you write:

> On a side note, the Redwood City (Ca) Police Department is experimenting
> with a city wide net of sensors that would detect gunshots, the triangulate
> the shooter's location and dispatch police.  Early on, the system was prone
> to count any large noise as a gunshot (a traffic jam on Woodside Rd
> evidently gave the computer a nervous breakdown), but they are expecting to
> have the system running by next New Years Eve.  This is important because
> of the lovely habit of many people of firing guns in the air at midnight,
> forgetting that those bullets have to land somewhere...

I hate that sort of idiot. Whenever I or anyone I know has used guns as
a noisemaker, we've aimed at the lawn. And occasionally when weeding,
we'll find old slugs. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:52:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Product Review

In mail you write:

> At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
>>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>>> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
>
>>Why piracy?
>>He isn=B4t proposing selling copies, he=B4s just selling his own copy.
>>He paid for it and it=B4s his to sell! Why shouldn=B4t you be able to se=
> ll=20
>>software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you don=B4t k=
> eep
> a copy on you
>>hard drive...
>
> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.

Again, he's not talking about piracy. He's talking about transferring
the software *and* docs, and not keeping a copy. Not only is that
legal, there is legal opinion saying that it's not legal for a
"shrinkwrap contract" to forbid it, as it'd be contrary to the intent
of the copyright act.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:05:34 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Lumps of rock (was: Misjumps IMTU)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow) wrote:
> There's the Kuiper Belt, which is a ways beyond Pluto. The
> Oort Cloud is a lot farther out. We really need input from
> the astromers :-)

I'm not an "astromer" but my info says the Kuiper Belt is vaguely
defined as 35 AU to 45 AU.  True, Pluto is at an average distance
of 34.9 AU but the first  two  Kuiper  Belt  objects  found  were
Chiron (at 13.5 AU) and Pholus (at 20.4 AU).  That puts a  Kuiper
Belt object between Saturn and Uranus.  Some "astromers" consider
Pluto to be realy just a Kuiper Belt object!  This may seem  like
nit-picking but you have to be careful when you  say  the  Kuiper
Belt is "a ways beyond Pluto", the Kuiper Belt's  boundaries  are
_very_ fuzzy.  People have pointed  out  the  falasy  of  densely
packed asteroid belts portrayed by Hollywood, but another  falasy
is the emptyness of interplanetary space.  An  asteroid  belt  is
just a region where you are more likely to encounter an asteroid,
but you can find them anywhere ... and the distinction between an
asteroid, a moon, and a planet is not as clear cut and tidy as it
used to be.

(Just a bit  of  trivia,  I  don't  know  what  that  says  about
interstellar space.)



Regards PLST
<tagless>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:04:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > David J. Golden wrote:
> >
> >> At 12:43 am 4/18/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Well, you did the math wrong.  An infinite plate generates a
> >> uniform
> >> >> gravitational field.  The easiest proof to find is to look up the
> >> >> electric field for a plate of uniform charge.  Since both fields
> >> vary
> >> >> inversely as the square of the distance the result will be the
> >> same.
> >> >> Most college physics texts will have the solution to the plane
> >> charge
> >> >> though they don't usually discuss gravity of plane masses.
> >> >
> >> >I think I see what the problem is... At a given distance from a
> >> plate, all points
> >> >will have the same (uniform) charge/gravity.  But I'm talking about
> >> two points at
> >> >different distances.
> >>
> >>         Doesn't matter. Two points at different distances wille have
> > exactly
> >> the same charge/gravity ... at *ANY* point anywhere in the fictional
> >> universe, the gravity will be exactly identical. There's _no_ height
> >> dependence in the equation:
> >>
> >>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
> >
> > I think you're using the wrong formula.
>
> Sorry, but other posts have gone thru the *calculus* involved and come
> up with that same formula *except they had the proper value for k).
>
> > For  a point source:
> > F=GMm/d^2
> > F= Force of gravity
> > G= Universal gravity constant
> > M= Mass 1
> > m= mass 2
> > d= distance from point source
> >
> > Since we're dealing with a nonvarying gravity body and the ship isn't losing
> > mass, GMm will be constant (we'll use K to represent this):
> > F=K/d^2
>
> You just made your first mistake.
>
> A=GM/D^2 for a *point* source. The mass of the ship doesn't enter into it.

You're right. Acceleration = K/d^2.  Sorry I mislabeled it.

>
>
> When figuring the field of a *non*-point source, you have to figure for
> each and every point *seperately*, which means that you figure the
> attraction based *only* on the mass at that point.
>

Since the integration was rather complicated, I instead generated a large field of
point sources and summed the results.  This gave me a general idea of what the
gravitational acceleration looks like... it wasn't uniform with respect to h.

> Next, the attracting mass *does* vary with distance.

F = mAIts the mass of the ship accelerating differentially that will pull it
apart.

> That's why you got the wrong answer. At height H above the plane, only an
> ifinitesmal
> amount of mass is at distance H, that's the point directly under the
> ship. A radius r from that point, you have "rings" of attracting mass,
> and as r increases, the mass involved goes up as the *square* of the
> radius.
>
> Since your calculations ignore this, there's no point going on. Check
> the post that did the correct calculations.

My calculations DID include this.  You didn't get to the part where I said "do a
surface revolution about the axis of acceleration." (which was conciderably more
complicated than k/r^2)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:12:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

> For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to *pump*
> fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.

For the sort of flow rate jump drives need, drop tanks would rupture at the
seals, pipe OR hose.  If you presuppose that drop tanks work in the manner
described (as opposed to the more reasonable, refill your internals/eject/jump
method) then sufficient hoses can reduce the individual flow rates to the point
that they can hold the pressure.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:09:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

At 01:11 AM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
>> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
>> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
>> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
>> rules while your at it.  
>
>This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
>other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
>you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)

If you include the shooting, this is Oakland, California.  Delete the
shooting but add numerous 20-30 degree hills and you've got San Francisco.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 05:14:55 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Tracking Bullets

At 01:07 PM 4/19/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Doug wrote;

>>On a side note, the Redwood City (Ca) Police Department is experimenting
>>with a city wide net of sensors that would detect gunshots, the triangulate
>>the shooter's location and dispatch police.  Early on, the system was prone
>>to count any large noise as a gunshot (a traffic jam on Woodside Rd
>>evidently gave the computer a nervous breakdown), but they are expecting to
>>have the system running by next New Years Eve.  This is important because
>>of the lovely habit of many people of firing guns in the air at midnight,
>>forgetting that those bullets have to land somewhere...
>
>Of course, it will be in place and active about a week or so before 

<snip>

The real worry around here is Tet/Chinese New Year.  The parade in SF
sounds like God's own firefight, and you get long strings of fireworks
going off around the Bay Area.

>But, then again, the Big Brother aspects of this kind of thing piss the
>hell out of me.

Since I have yo loive here, I think I'll let the cops do what they can to
get the teenagers with guns off the streets.  Until I moved into dispatch,
I had to drive into some very scary areas in the very early morning hours
to male pick-ups.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:06:40 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

> Eric Freitas posted:
>
>The goal by many companies is the "System on a Chip".
>This is a very big thing right now and will probably 
>be available within 1 to 2 years in consumer appliances.
<snip>
>Can you say, wristwatch computer?  With full color video
>and even audio?  Wireless connections to external 
>keyboards, full screen displays, and audio amps?
>
>Quite an interesting time ahead in the computer industry.

Not just the computer industry. How about space
exploration, health care, world-wide communications,
the entertainment industry? Think of any field or
application that uses or can use a transistor.
I could go on and on.

ObTrav: Want to know how a world moves from one TL to
another? Read/watch today's technology/science news.

We're *living* it. (Can you tell I'm high on life?)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #412
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 413



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Artificial gravity
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Artificial gravity
Re: Laser miscellany
Re:  cancelling tides
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjumps under previous editions
Re: Low Berth Canon question
RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade
Re: FTL commo
RE: Product Review
Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:29:29 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 12:42:07 -0700 (PDT) "John R. Snead"
<jsnead@netcom.com> writes:

>The only problem with this is that you then only need to use a tanker with
>a (potentially disposable) fuel hose several hundred meters long. If the
>fuel hose gets scragged, you're out a few 100 credits, a small price to
>pay for the ability to carry *lots* more cargo.

I think I'll keep the drop tank concept, IMTU most of the fuel is heated
to plasma, rather than fused, and blown through (very very special)
superconducting coils to create the jump point.  Pumping the fuel through
a long hose and then into the drive would be, I think rather difficult at
the rates needed.  Still, I like the idea of using drop tanks on the big
freighters, it seems reasonable.  The corporations would probably
maintain platforms outside the jump limits of a world, and keep a large
stock of custom tanks for their ships.  They could skim gas giants for
free, and probably provide such tanks for other customers (at a nominal
fee, or course ;)  ).  I like it!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:55:06 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 16:40:54 -0700 "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> writes:
>On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>> Won't work. Power plant fuel (which is also maneuver drive fuel) 
>lasts 30 days.
>> After that the low berths run out of power and everybody dies.
>
>Of course you could try desparate measures.  You start
>the ship on a vector that will get you to the nearest
>habitated system.  You then get the computer to, after
>all are in the low berths, to open the ship to turn cool
>the whole ship with liquid hydrogen as you turn the reactor
>off.  You then hope the cold of space keeps you
>frozen and some very good doctors to revive you if and
>when you are arrive at the system and are found.


Actually, I've always treated emergency low berths as having a small RTG
(radio-thermal generator) just powerful enough to maintain the berth.  Of
course, the ship is going to die in the intervening time, but hey, its
better than dying out-right yourself!!!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:34:55 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

At 01:31 AM 4/20/98 , Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>>>If any jump has a 1 in 36 chance of misjump, and any hex within 6 has a 1
>>>in 36 chance of being the destination of a misjump...
>>>Michael Croft
>>>
>They must have *really* changed the mis-jump rules. In the Traveller
>Book, these are the rules:
>
They did not, I made an error.  After seeing this referenced, I looked it
up and the rule for how far you misjump has never changed and is as listed
below.  The main concern is for the 2- to misjump on any given jump, which
replaces the CT 13+ to misjump.  The fact that a misjump throws you 1-36
hexes reduces the possiblity of a rescue/salvage mission to close to nil.
They have too large an area to search.

>Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1-6); throw that
>number of dice to determine the distance of the misjump in hexes. Then
>throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six
>directions possible on the hex grid). Finally, throw one die to
>determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship
>re-emerges at its new location.
>
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:38:37 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>In mail you write:
>
>> I thought that the oxygen created for the ship (when needed to supplement
>> the scrubbers) came from the fuel supply.  That wouldn't be very much to
>> turn back into fuel.
>
>Nope, the fuel is liquid hydrogen, *not* water.

>
Yes but it is done when the scooping occurs and the purification plants pump
out the liquid hydrogen, water, and oxygen needed to conduct starship
operations.  I didn't clarify where this occurred, sorry.  I do see your
point though.  Even so, there wouldn't be much to convert back so my
original point is still valid (though my communicated reasoning was slightly
flawed).
>
>> What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for recharge). The
>> low berths are already battery powered and you can get a couple of blankets
>> of solar panels (take up less space) and unroll them on the surface of the
>> ship.  You then need to run the power leads down to sickbay and tie them in.
>> At higher tech levels that may mean only a couple of square feet of solar
>> panels and they are cheap.  That's the ticket, problem solved.  That's what
>> I'm going to do IMTU.
>
>Slight problem. Solar panels output depends *directly* on the amount of
>light shining on them. If you've jumped into an "empty" hex, that light
>is too feeble to power much of anything.
>Now, at 200,000 AU the energy is 1/40,000,000,000th as strong. So you'd
>have 25 *nano*watts per square meter. (25e-9). So to get 1 kW, you'd
>need a 200 km square array of solar cells at 100% efficiency.
>
>That's why probes going out past Mars don't use solar cells, but rely
>on RTGs instead.
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard.  I actually agree with you but I would like to
make this point; your numbers are the result you get at TL 7/8.  What would
it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL 15?  It would seem to me by TL 10+ we
would have extremely efficient solar batteries and possibly even a solar
sail type array to produce reasonable amounts of power, possibly even enough
to power some _low_ power COLD storage units.  The units could even get a
boost from the cold of space to augment their requirements.  I believe if a
PC put it to me with some thought involved (depending on his character stats
he might get a GM assist, after all he is still thinking with a year
1990/2000 mentality) I would find my way clear to save the party, if it were
at all possible.  This is after all "Traveler" the role playing game and a
lot of players work very hard to get their characters up to speed.  Why
should I kill them off because of 2 or 3 bad die rolls when its just as easy
to think a problem through and come up with a reasonable hypothesis for a
time 5000 years in the future.  I believe I can do it and stay within cannon
and physics for the most part.  On the other hand if they got here because
they were stupid and thought I would just let them off the hook then they
better break out new character sheets.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:48:53 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Joe Pettit writes:

>>For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to *pump*
>>fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.

Why not burn the fuel in an external jump drive and transfer the energy
through an electrical cable to the ship's capacitors? If the fuel really
is used only to generate energy, I don't see anything that would preclude
this. The energy has to be conveyed from the drive to the capacitors anyway.
Whether the energy goes through a few hundred meters of cable more or less
seems unlikely to be of consequence.

It's this possibility that makes me advocate changing canon slightly to
where most of the fuel is used to facilitate the ship's crossover to jump
space.


>If you presuppose that drop tanks work in the manner described (as opposed
>to the more reasonable, refill your internals/eject/jump method)

Why is that more reasonable? You either use the fuel directly from the drop
tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
less reasonable IMO.

Someone else mentioned demountable and collapsible tanks. Demountable tanks
function in all ways as ordinary internal tanks as long as the are mounted.
The difference is that demountable tanks can be demounted (;-). Thus fuel
in demountable tanks can be used directly for jumps. Fuel from collapsible
tanks cannot. Apparently the difference lies between rigid and soft tanks.
(Just WHY that should make any difference at all is quite beyond me).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:14:59 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, April 20, 1998 7:10 AM
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics


>> I think that too much is being read into the 1 in 36 chance of a mis-jump.
>> The bulk of the mus-jumps will only effect the number of days you are in
>> jump space.  Another large percentage will be where you come out in the hex
>> you were jumping to.  I would dare say that it is the 1-1-1 on the 3 d6 that
>> give you  a REAL mis-jump or a 1 in 216 (I think) of this happening. Just
>> my tenth of a credit's worth of input.
>
>They must have *really* changed the mis-jump rules. In the Traveller
>Book, these are the rules:
>
>Throw one die to determine the number of dice thrown (1-6); throw that
>number of dice to determine the distance of the misjump in hexes. Then
>throw one die to determine the direction of the misjump (one of the six
>directions possible on the hex grid). Finally, throw one die to
>determine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the ship
>re-emerges at its new location.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


Actually Leonard you are quoting the portion of the actual write-up in the
MT version that deals with misjumps. I will repost portions of a post by
Peter Newman so every one can read it.  Again I spoke too quickly and lucky
you, you caught it.  I tend to think of "Jump Mishaps" when dealing with
misjumps, sorry.  I believe you can see why I might think of them all in one
lump as a misjump , they are after all in the same table (15) and  you have
to get some bad rolls to get there.

*MT:
*Step 7: Prepare for Jump
*        Routine*, Engr., Edu, 2min
*        if fuel unrefined, Hazardous
*        if past annual maintenance, hazardous and increase diff by 1
*        level per month.

*Step 8: Engage Jump Drive
*       Can only be done once step 7 is completed.
*        Routine, Engineering , Edu, 2min.
*        Unrefined fuel makes this hazardous
*        Safe Jump: A ship at least 100 diameters out, using the proper
*         fuel, and with properly maintained drives can make a safe jump
*         with _no chance of mishap_.[emphasis mine(Peter's)]
*         Dangerous Jump: if within 100 diameters of a massive body, this
*         task is Difficult (Hazardous).
*        Desperate Jump: If the ship is within 10 diameters of a massive
*         body the task is Formidable (hazardous)

*        If a mishap occurs, go to 15.

*Step 15 Jump Mishaps

*Superficial: Jump relativity error occurs. 1d+4 days in jump
*before emerging in destination system, otherwise unharmed.

*Minor: Jump relativity Error occurs, but when it emerges in the
*destination system, the Ship emerges 1dx8 hours from
*destination world.


*Major: Jump relativity Error occurs. When the ship emerges
*from jump, it discovers that it has misjumped.

*Throw 1d6 to find the number of dice to throw. Then throw that
*number of dice to determine the distance (in parsecs or map
*hexes) for the distance the ship travelled. Then throw 1d for the
*direction of the misjump.

*Destroyed: The ship is destroyed.

*[MT Imperial Encyclopedia, pp 92-93]

*2d Mishaps occur on a natural 2 on the 2d task throw, or on an
*exceptional failure (by 2+ points) for hazardous tasks, or any failure
*on a fateful task. 3d mishaps occur on any natural 2 on a hazardous
*task, or any failure on a hazardous fateful task.

 *Mishap determination table [roll dice by failure category]
 *       2       reroll [this table]
 *       3+      superficial
 *       7+      minor
 *       11+     major
 *       15+     destroyed

*[MT Referee's Manual, p14]

By reading this I ass-u-me-d all Jump anomalies fell into the category of
misjump, instead they fall into the category "Jump Mishap".  I see now that
it specifically spells out misjump as a different kind of "Jump Relativity
Error".  My mistake, sorry.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:16:21 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Artificial gravity

Leonard Erickson writes:

>Nobody in their right mind would grapple to a hostile ship. It's *way*
>too easy to pull the "suicide" bit and blast both ships to vapor.

That all depends on the conventions in force at the time and in the place
in question. At some point in a space battle one ship is sufficiently
shot up that the opponent has the unquestioned ability to destroy it. In
some cultures he will also want to. If that is the case, there's no problem.
Or the defeated crew may want to blow themselves up rather than surrender,
in which case there's no problem either. Or the defeated may be unable to
resist at all, in which case there's still no problem. The problem comes
when the winner has the ability to destroy but not to capture and prefers
to capture. That's when conduct ceases to be strictly utilitarian and to
move into the realm of convention. Certainly the victim may have the
ability to blow up himself and his attacker if they grabble, but what if
the attacker knows (or thinks he knows) that the defender won't go to
such extremes under any circumstances?

IMTU Under the rules of war used by the Imperium and it's major neighbors a
helpless ship surrenders the moment it is helpless and under the guns of an
enemy ship. Other conventions may require the attacker to board by force
but require the defenders not to fiddle with the gravity. Or the attackers
may be able to counteract that trick by destroying the deck plates or the
control interfaces or something. But one thing I'm sure of: If the defenders
of an otherwise helpless ship is able to make it impossible for an attacker
to capture it in the face of opposition, the defending ship will either be
forced to refrain from offering opposition or it will be destroyed. I can't
see the victor allowing the loser to just go its merry way.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:18:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Joe Pettit writes:
>
> >>For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to *pump*
> >>fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.
>
> Why not burn the fuel in an external jump drive and transfer the energy
> through an electrical cable to the ship's capacitors? If the fuel really
> is used only to generate energy, I don't see anything that would preclude
> this. The energy has to be conveyed from the drive to the capacitors anyway.
> Whether the energy goes through a few hundred meters of cable more or less
> seems unlikely to be of consequence.
>
> It's this possibility that makes me advocate changing canon slightly to
> where most of the fuel is used to facilitate the ship's crossover to jump
> space.

Jump machinery has a factor of Jump+1 (either percentage or jump units depending
on system you're using).  I'd propose that the +1 portion is burned initially to
form/maintain the jump point/jump tunnel/jump bubble for the trip. The rest of
the fuel is injection mass (or whatever you want to call it).  The injection
mass is what needs to be pure H2, the other portion of the fuel can be
unrefined, as it is only generating energy.

>
>
> >If you presuppose that drop tanks work in the manner described (as opposed
> >to the more reasonable, refill your internals/eject/jump method)
>
> Why is that more reasonable?

Because *IF* you burn the fuel internally, then you don't have to assume that
ALL the fuel is burned at once. Thus you don't need the unbelievably high
capacity capacitors. You don't run into the question about why they haven't been
implemented as weapons. You don't have the question of why its so important for
the fuel pure hydrogen... Basically, it eliminates a whole bunch of handwaves.

> You either use the fuel directly from the drop
> tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
> capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
> less reasonable IMO.

Jump with internal fuelRefuel with tanks
Eject tanks
Jump with internal fuel  sans tank displacement

Not: form jump point and pump like crazy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:45:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Artificial gravity

Frank G. Pitt writes:
>People boarding ?
> 
>"Control ? Squad in corridor 6A, float 'em on my mark. 3, 2, 1,, mark !
>OK, bring 'em down hard !"

"This is Control. Sorry, Lieutenant, it looks like the tricky bastards
ripped out the control links to the grav plates. It's as if they'd actually
anticipated that trick, strange as that may sound. You're on your own.
Lieutenant? Are you there, Lieutenant...?"
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:46:49 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Laser miscellany

>Hmm, I just saw a note in EETimes about a military test firing a 7.36kW 
>beam through 6 feet of 900uM diameter fiber (That was 7.36kW emmitted
>power, doesn't say what the input was).  The beam then went on to cut 
>through .5 inches of stainless steel plate.

Losses through the fibre are probably small. Losses getting into the 
fiber might be more substantial but only a few percent. Still, peak power 
through a fibre probably only scales linearly with fiber diameter - and
Traveller weapons lasers have peak power in the 100 gigawatt level,
so you'd need a fiber ten meters in diameter


>Really?  I just heard a really good one.  In EETimes there is an article
>about space based laser weapons.  Clinton is planning on putting up a
>constellation of them for protection against ballistic missiles.  Who woulda
>thunk it?

"Planning" is probably too strong a word; "vaguely considering based on
results of a still-unfunded space-based-laser test" might be more correct.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:49:57 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  cancelling tides

>>> Six point sources arranged properly will cancel tidal forces
>>> *completely* over a volume.
>Well, the most likely looking reference given in the article is:
>"Flattening Spacetime Near the Earth" Physical Review, vol D26, pp.
>735-744 (15 August 1982)
>And it may not be in use after all. On re-reading, it looks like it
>needs a steadier platform than the shuttle.

That sounds more plausible. 

If recall correctly, in addition to tidal effects, a big deviation from
true zero-gravity in the planned space station is actually drag, since 
it has so much surface area...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 08:54:27 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

>Maybe Bruce or one of the other astronomy types can give us an estimate
>for the average distance between 1 km, 100 meter, 10 meter, and 1 meter
>snowballs in "free" space. Given that, we could come up with a table
>for refs to use.

If I could do that, I'd publish it in "Nature", not on the Traveller
mailing list. I can't even give you an estimate of how many 60-jupiter-mass
brown dwarfs there are in free space that I trust to better than a factor of
four. Nor can I even say what the density of 1-km objects in our own Kuipter
belt (let alone the Oort cloud) is, though there's a very nice LLNL project
that's going to look for Kuipter objects via occultations starting up soon. 

What I can do are numbers for the signature (on my sensor scale) of such
objects in free space is - I'll work on that sometime next weekend. Then we
can make up convienient densities. IMTU, though, such "free-space" ice
bodies would be pretty rare - rare enough that a random misjump won't find
them - otherwise there would be jump refuelling/"calibration point" stations
in every empty hex on the map.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:58:16 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjumps under previous editions

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>Since you can't come out within 100 diameters of the nearest 'large' object 
>(and by large, I mean, on the order of a kilometer or more), the computer 
>would probably refuse the endpoint solution and put you 100 diameters away 
>from the gas giant.

And Thom Harris writes:

>100% correct!  These are built in protections and Marc has commented on the
>100 diameter region previously.  You should be perfectly safe unless you
>have a catastrophic roll of the die and even then there are still some
>protections in place.  You would have to blow two or more rolls to wind up
>in the center of the gas giant.  If that should happen have a bronze
>memorial plate made up and put in orbit around the gas giant to show your
>respect.

Not quite 100% correct. The "built-in protections" are aspects of the
physical laws of the Traveller Universe. There's no need to build
fail-safes into your astrogation computer. You can aim for a point inside
a jump limit, but you get kicked out of jump space somewhere right at the
jump limit if you try  (either at the point directly in line between your
starting jump point and your target point or at a random point around the
gravity source, according to you favorite theory).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:11:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Low Berth Canon question

Steve Daniels writes:
>It seems to me that is aging [in low berths] is substantially slowed, those
>who can afford it would use low berth to realize the future benefits of their
>investments.  Etc.

This will only work in a stable society and only if not too many people do
it. Otherwise you run the risk that those who are awake and actually
creating the wealth that you expect a chunk of when you wake will change the
rules on you and refuse to play along.

Also, you will be cutting yourself off from all your social connections. How
many people will be willing to do that?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:26:30 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: RE: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

1/72 risk of fatal misjump (this thread) assumes:
=================================================
1 Most ship do NOT have an extra J1 jumpfuel.
2 There's no tendency for ships to exit jumpspace close to stars.
3 There's no way to do wilderness refuelling in deep space ie rogue comets
and their ilk are so far apart that sensors cannot pick them up, even if
integrating for long times.
4 There's no added skillbonus for Astrogation skill to the 2- roll.

1: My ships generally have and extra J1 but canon ones don't so lets say
they haven't got that extra life insurance.
2: I don't think canon says anything about this but IMTU for a ship to
misjump into interstellar space it has to randomize out into a hex that is
compleately surrounded by other deep space hexes. If there's one or more
system hexes adjacent to the misjump one the ship will randimly exit in one
of the system hexes, close to the star.
3: Comets in deep space will be close to 3 Kelvin and therefore hard to
detect on IR. Background starlight might help though. I think that you'd
have to get really lucky to come within detection distance from a comet
unless a version of point 2 above is working on low masspoints as well ie
even in deepspace you tend to exit near comets, rogue planets and whatnot
(cool adventure possibilities there).
4: My system has MUCH lower propabilities for misjumps if the ship is well
maintained and the astrogator knows what he's doing but that is not canon.

Point 2 above will solve the problem and also make gulfs/abysses etc more
dangerous, it also increases the likelihood that PC/NPC may show up systems
they never intended to visit more often which leads to adventure
possibilities.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:26:29 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

>How do you all handle this IYTUs?  "I'm sorry, your ship jumped to an empty
>hex.  Do you have enough food and fuel for 3.26 years to get to the nearest
>star?  OK, roll new characters."  This seems harsh.

That is why I try to design my ship with an extra J1 fuel load to get the
ship back when misjumped.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:29:38 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: FTL commo

>Anyway...as I  said in an earlier post, a 1-m telescope with a 1-kilowatt
>laser can get moderate bandwidth (100 bits per second) at a few parsecs;
>a system like that would cost about a million dollars with current
>technology. If you put it in space you'd pick up a factor of a hundred
>in bandwidth.

Are you shure about these figures? I'm no expert (skill level 0 at best ;-)
but they seem awfully good. What bandwidth do you pose the laser will send
at to get 100 bits/sec across? I'm just curious as if this is true I have
to redesign all my ships and all my missiles (no problem I've done it a
couple of times before).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:48:16 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Product Review

>
>At 09:31 AM 4/19/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>If anyone wants Terralogicus for cheap (say, $20), I'll gladly sell them
>>mine.  I've used it all of never.  Just e-mail me privately
>>(bmays@genscope.com).
>
>And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
>

Trust me, it's not piracy.  It's registered, paid for in full, blah, blah,
blah, and has been sitting in a drawer for over a year now.  I will not be
keeping a copy of the program, as I personally found it lacking.  But others
(such as you) see things in it I obviously didn't.  More power to you.

Barnacle Brian ("Argh!  Me piratin' days be over, matey!") Mays

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:50:58 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Misjumps and Risks of Longhaul  trade

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:26:29 +0200 anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders
Backman) writes:
>>How do you all handle this IYTUs?  "I'm sorry, your ship jumped to an 
>empty
>>hex.  Do you have enough food and fuel for 3.26 years to get to the 
>nearest
>>star?  OK, roll new characters."  This seems harsh.


I don't worry with misjumps, except to create adventure situations.  If
the players do misjump, I'll have some sort of out, but they'll have to
work for it.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #413
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 414



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Product Review
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop tanks 
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Product Review
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Artificial gravity
Re: FTL commo
Re: Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller
Re: Drop tanks 
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjumps IMTU
re: laser communications at interstellar distances
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Artificial gravity

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 09:58:18 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Product Review

>>> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
>
>>Why piracy?
>>He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
>>He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell
>>software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
>a copy on you
>>hard drive...
>
>Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
>right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
>containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
>small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
>products.

Yes, it does, but you are missing information and making snippy remarks
based on it.  I do not have a copy of Terralogicus installed anywhere.  I
removed it from my hard drive.  The only place Terralogicus exists in my
house is on its original disk in its original envelope with its original
documentation, all in a drawer.

brian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:16:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> > 
> > Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
> > working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
> > instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
> > when I melt it into a glass ball....
> 
> You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen 
> at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals 
> across the surface of the planet.
>
 
Let me guess...the thing is a spinal mount in this really, REALLY big
spherical hull...right? ;P

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:18:31 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

>  Someone else mentioned demountable and collapsible tanks. Demountable tanks
> function in all ways as ordinary internal tanks as long as the are mounted.
> The difference is that demountable tanks can be demounted (;-). Thus fuel
> in demountable tanks can be used directly for jumps. Fuel from collapsible
> tanks cannot. Apparently the difference lies between rigid and soft tanks.
> (Just WHY that should make any difference at all is quite beyond me).

Simple enough.  Both styles of tanks are mounted inside the cargo bay.  Collapsable tanks take up less availiable cargo space when they're empty.  Dismountable tanks take the same amount of space whether they're full or empty. And where does it say you can't directly use collapsible tanks directly for jumps?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:29:41 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Thom Harris wrote:
> Shadow wrote:
> > You wrote:
> > > What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for
> > > recharge). The low berths are already battery powered and you
> > > can get a couple of blankets of solar panels (take up less
> > > space) and unroll them on the surface of the ship. You then
> > > need to run the power leads down to sickbay and tie them in.
> > > At higher tech levels that may mean only a couple of square
> > > feet of solar panels and they are cheap. That's the ticket,
> > > problem solved. That's what I'm going to do IMTU.
> >
> > Slight problem. Solar panels output depends *directly* on the
> > amount of light shining on them. If you've jumped into an
> > "empty" hex, that light is too feeble to power much of
> > anything. Now, at 200,000 AU the energy is 1/40,000,000,000th
> > as strong. So you'd have 25 *nano*watts per square meter.
> > (25e-9). So to get 1 kW, you'd need a 200 km square array of
> > solar cells at 100% efficiency.
> >
> > That's why probes going out past Mars don't use solar cells,
> > but rely on RTGs instead.
> >
>
> Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard. I actually agree with you but I
> would like to make this point; your numbers are the result you
> get at TL 7/8. What would it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL
> 15? It would seem to me by TL 10+ we would have extremely
> efficient solar batteries and possibly even a solar sail type
> array to produce reasonable amounts of power, possibly even
> enough to power some _low_ power COLD storage units. The units
> could even get a boost from the cold of space to augment their
> requirements.
<snip>

No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
efficiency).

On the subject of "low power  cold  storage  units":  First,  the
energy requirements stated in  the rules  already  take  TL  into
account.  Second, according to a DGP article I read years ago ...
the key to the low berth process is cooling the victim  (sorry, I
mean 'subject') in such a way that ice crystals  don't  form  and
cause massive widespread cell damage (especially to brain cells).
This is achieved by manipulating the atomic forces  in  much  the
same way as nuclear damper  technology  works.  While  'cold'  is
often defined as the absence  of  atomic  and  molecular  kinetic
energy, and reducing this kinetic energy is what low  berths  do,
the low berth is perhaps more properly thought of as a  partially
successful stasis device.  If 'natural'  cold  is  used  ...  ice
crystals ... cells become slush ... subject dies.

(Appologies if I've mis-remembered the DGP article, I don't  have
it with me at the moment.)



Regards PLST
<tagless>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:21:10 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Product Review

Eris the Heretic wrote:

>Oh, about Astrologicus and Teralogicus...yes, they are very interesting,
>but frankly, I haven't gotten much utility out of either for Traveller
>games. I've ended up using Galactic much more.

I agree completely.  I'm working on a 2300AD'esque near future game (w/ TNE
rules, of course)...  instead of Galactic, i'm using the equally excellent
Starmap, also by Jim V.  If you're used to Galactic, but want 3D, the
interface is almost identicle.  It's all in the details.  As for the
Astrologicus and Terralogicus.  They're neat, but I just haven't used em much.
I made several suggestions for features, like being able to insert objects (as
is, black holes, neutron stars, etc are all random), but for various reasons
they told me it wasn't gonna happen. (They didn't want to do a DOS extender,
for example).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:30:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Peter Newman wrote:

> Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> wrote
> 
> Noter that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
> this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
> Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
> without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
> Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of
> air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficinet
> fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to process
> this much fuel.

WOW shades of "V"

...whatta sicko idea for a vampire ship. heh heh heh.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:49 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Artificial gravity

There's a thread going on about artificial gravity, and using it to
defend the ship.


From a GMing perspective I believe rapid alterations in gravity are
bad:

Oscillating gravity is a pain in the neck to run.  If the PCs get
detected, anywhere there are grav plates, the first thing NPCs are
going to do is oscillate gravity semi-randomly.  Ditto for PCs
discovering NPCs.  In fact, oscillating gravity is a very good way to
mess people up... so let's just put grav plates in other sensitive
installations, even on-planet.

Oh, and someone mentioned dents.  Sure, bones won't dent the
bulkheads.  But anything _else_ (including your cargo, if it's somehow
gotten loose) will, and you're stressing all sorts of things.

So the first thing anyone would do, upon discovering grav plates, is
destroy them, their controls, or the power source, ensuring major (and
expensive) damage.  Yuck.  In fact, even on your _own_ ship you would
want to make sure that the enemy couldn't get hold of the controls to
your section....

Then you also have to deal with "how big an area can you oscillate?"

On top of that, everyone ends up needing a high ability in zero-G
maneuvering (because people disable the artificial gravity, rather
than having it used against them).  There's no longer anything special
about that skill, everybody gets it/wants it.  

Zero-G is also a hard situation for players and GMs to visualize.



My solution, IMTU (I know enough physics that I'm not even going to
try and give it a logical explaination):

1. Grav plates are a field effect which occur between pairs of plates,
usually built into the top and bottom of the ship (floor/ceiling).
This effect includes both gravity and compensation for accelleration.

2. When first turned on, plates take time (a few days) to "charge" up
to a certain gravity level.  During this time gravity and compensation
ability very slowly increases.

3. Once charged, they still need power to stay at the same level.

4. If you turn the power off, gravity and compensation slowly
declines, again over a few days, until the plates are no longer having
an effect.  You can't get the "charge" out of the plates any other
way.

5. The only way to _rapidly_ change gravity is to damage the plates
(and this can only move gravity towards zero-g).  Minor damage (since
these plates run the length of the ship's top & bottom, this includes
making a hole) will have negligible effect - perhaps a slight decrease
in gravity/compensation.  Severely damaging one of a pair, or moving
it away from the other, causes both of them to die in a pretty
semi-melting fashion (no big explosions, or we'd have a new type of
weapon), resulting in no artificial gravity between them.


Result:
Most ships in use have gravity within them.
Most derilicts don't.
No rapid gravity changes (anywhere).


	-Robert Ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com


Oh, and think about the interesting air currents you'll get on the
edge of a discontinuous gravity field.  Downdraft in the higher g
area, updraft in the lower g area.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:37:11 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FTL commo

Anders Backman wrote:

> >Anyway...as I  said in an earlier post, a 1-m telescope with a 1-kilowatt
> >laser can get moderate bandwidth (100 bits per second) at a few parsecs;
> >a system like that would cost about a million dollars with current
> >technology. If you put it in space you'd pick up a factor of a hundred
> >in bandwidth.
>
> Are you shure about these figures? I'm no expert (skill level 0 at best ;-)
> but they seem awfully good. What bandwidth do you pose the laser will send
> at to get 100 bits/sec across? I'm just curious as if this is true I have
> to redesign all my ships and all my missiles (no problem I've done it a
> couple of times before).

Actually, if we apply Traveller (TNE FFS) tech to it we get an enormous
problem... short range is determined by focal diameter. It maxes at 10(6D(in
meters))^2*TL range factor based on wavelength of light.  At TL 12 its actually
10(5D)^2*100 km for a Far UV laser.  That 1M laser telescope would have a short
range of 25,000 km.  Which makes the Parsecs away distant receiver unreachable.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:22:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller

Christopher Thrash writes:
> The following is designed using GURPS Vehicles, 2d Ed (VE2), to be a
> plug-in for ships in GURPS Traveller.  It uses 1 dton = 500 cf.

Due to the differing ways in which FF&S and GURPS Vehicles handle volumes for
turrets, this is not clearly correct (1 dT of turret volume is probably only
250 cf -- turrets in FF&S aren't separate subassemblies, they just cause
objects within them to take up extra space).  Given that Vehicles does not give
armor or frame materials volume, in general calling 1 dT 500 cf is probably
incorrect.
> Modular Laser Turret (TL 8)
> 
>   Subassemblies and Body Features:  One pop turret (full rotation).
>   Weaponry:  One 135 Mj extreme range UV laser (TuF, HP 500, power 
> 67,500 kW derated to 450 kW).
>   Weapon Accessories:  Universal mount for laser and AESA (Tu, HP 400).
Add full stabilization.
>   Instruments and Electronics:  AESA radar with 1,000 mile range (Tu,
> HP 100, 250 kW, Scan 29).  Advanced radar/laser detectors (HP 8) with
> dedicated, hardened minicomputer running Transmission Profiling and a 
> 1 Gb ship recognition database.

There is no evidence for Traveller turrets containing any of these things. 
Also, having multiple AESAs sending out signals will just confuse matters.  Any
TL 8+ radar can track multiple objects simultaneously, just assume that the
main sensor suite on the starship is feeding targeting data to the lasers.
  Miscellaneous:  Emergency Medikit. Portable Electronics Toolkit.

> Enviro-bubble.
>   Crew station:  normal. One dedicated, compact, hardened microframe,
> running Gunner, Targetting, and Datalink. One terminal. HUDWAC with
> pupil scanner.

It is not clear if the crewstations for a traveller turret are within the
turret, this seems fairly unlikely (not to mention stupid).  The crewstation
should be within the vehicle itself.

   Occupancy:  Short.  Crew: Gunner.  Environmental Systems:  connected
> to ship for full life support.  TL 8 limited life support, one man-day
> (HP 13, 0.5 kW, powered by energy bank).
>   Power Plant:  connected to ship for 701 kW.  
>   Energy Bank:  One E-size rechargeable power slug (180,000 kWs, HP 6).

Actually, even power slugs are a bit excessive in traveller terms.  However, a
typical laser turret requires a power plant/1, which at the density of Vehicles
TL10 fusion power plants (assuming access space for a long-occupancy vehicle)
is about 40 MW (it is about 250 MW in T4),

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:39:04 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

> Because *IF* you burn the fuel internally, then you don't have to assume that
> ALL the fuel is burned at once. Thus you don't need the unbelievably high
> capacity capacitors. You don't run into the question about why they haven't been
> implemented as weapons. You don't have the question of why its so important for
> the fuel pure hydrogen... Basically, it eliminates a whole bunch of handwaves.

Why would anybody in their right minds want to use a jump engine as a weapon?  
They're just too damned expensive to waste in that manner.  Nukes are *MUCH* 
cheaper to use.  According to High Guard rules, jump engines are 4MCr/ton, 
tonnage requirements are Jn+1.  Thus, a Jump 2 ship displacing 500 tons needs 
15 tons of jump engines at a cost of 60MCr.  And the resulting explosion of an 
overloaded set of jump capacitors is *NOT*, repeat, *NOT* a nuclear explosion. 
 It may be enough to vaporise a ship, but that doesn't make it nuclear.

Navies have budgets.  That means they don't get to buy all the toys they want. 
 Knowing this, which are you going to buy for your 60MCr, one jump drive, or a 
couple dozen nukes?

> > You either use the fuel directly from the drop
> > tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> > from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> > drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> > them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> > and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> > the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
> > capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
> > less reasonable IMO.
> 
> Jump with internal fuelRefuel with tanks
> Eject tanks
> Jump with internal fuel  sans tank displacement
> 
> Not: form jump point and pump like crazy
 
You miss the point *AGAIN*.

You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.  That's what gives 
you the energy to form it.  That's what gets stored in the Zochai crystals.  
If you could form it *WITHOUT* burning the fuel, then why bother burning the 
fuel?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:39:43 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> >  Someone else mentioned demountable and collapsible tanks. Demountable tanks
> > function in all ways as ordinary internal tanks as long as the are mounted.
> > The difference is that demountable tanks can be demounted (;-). Thus fuel
> > in demountable tanks can be used directly for jumps. Fuel from collapsible
> > tanks cannot. Apparently the difference lies between rigid and soft tanks.
> > (Just WHY that should make any difference at all is quite beyond me).
>
> Simple enough.  Both styles of tanks are mounted inside the cargo bay.  Collapsable tanks take up less availiable cargo space when they're empty.  Dismountable tanks take the same amount of space whether they're full or empty. And where does it say you can't directly use collapsible tanks directly for jumps?

Right there in the rule book where it talks about collapsible tanks.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:41:32 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Peter Newman wrote:
>
> > Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> wrote
> >
> > Noter that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
> > this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
> > Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
> > without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
> > Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of
> > air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficinet
> > fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to process
> > this much fuel.
>
> WOW shades of "V"
>
> ...whatta sicko idea for a vampire ship. heh heh heh.

Err...  Umm... How exactly does this planet support 5+ population with NO
water?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:48:33 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

David Summers wrote:
> Similarly, I don't know if the theory of stellar system
> formation prohibits this, but the possibility exists of a
> failed stellar system that was too low in mass. (It collapsed
> into a gas giant surrounded by a few moons rather than into a
> star). But these would be _very_ rare also.

I was thinking about something similar ... what about a dead star
(red dwarf star that faded out) capturing some loose  snow  balls
and forming a dark matter system.  Unfortunatly, this would still
have been detected by interstellar densitometer  scan.  So  there
couldn't be a dark system within the Imperium ... not unless some
scout working on the IGS got sloppy ;-).



Regards PLST
<tagless>
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:51:17 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: laser communications at interstellar distances

>>Anyway...as I  said in an earlier post, a 1-m telescope with a 1-kilowatt
>>laser can get moderate bandwidth (100 bits per second) at a few parsecs;
>>a system like that would cost about a million dollars with current
>>technology. If you put it in space you'd pick up a factor of a hundred
>>in bandwidth.
>Are you shure about these figures?
It was a back-of-the-envelope (based on the fact that I remember once
calculating that the kilowatt laser we used at LLNL for laser guide
star tests would be detectable at Alpha Centauri). As I redo it, I discover
that my memory was wrong and the scaling needs work...it's more like a
bit per minute.

A 1 arcsecond beam at 1 parsec is 1 AU across, so the energy density for a
1 kilowatt beam is 4.5*10^-20 watts/m2. (For reference, a zero-magnitude
star is 1.1*10^-12 watts/m2 angstrom, so this is a 21st magnitude star through
a 10-angstrom filter, detectable from the ground with a 1-m telescope in 
about 5 minutes under normal conditions.)
 
Alternatively, at 1 micron wavelengths, a photon has about 1*10^-19 joules
of energy, so this is 0.5 photons per second. A hundred photons per bit
would give you acceptable error rates so this is about 50 seconds per bit,
or 1 bit per minute. (This is higher than the previous paragraph would
imply because we can neglect background light, since the laser is 
monochromatic; although from the ground, scattered light from the target
star is a potential issue.) 

However, if we put the 1-m launch telescope in space, the beam is only 0.2
arcseconds across, so the density goes up to 12.5 photons per second, or 
about 8 seconds per bit. Crank the laser up to 10 kW and you get 1 second
per bit. Make the launch and reciever 2-m telescopes and we're up to 1000
photons per second, or 10 bits per second. (At Traveller tech levels it's
probably better to add more laser power, though.) About the same as
Galileo back to Earth.

Pursuant to another debate (what happens when you misjump), I'll note that
a typical (~10 MW) T4 turret laser is about a tenth magnitude star through a
1-angstrom filter at 1 parsec, easily detectable by an automated all-sky
monitoring system. Old-fashioned High Guard beam lasers (250 MW) are
eighth magnitude, and are naked-eye visible at about a third of a parsec.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:54:34 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> 
> On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > > warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> > > 
> > > Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
> > > working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
> > > instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
> > > when I melt it into a glass ball....
> > 
> > You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen 
> > at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals 
> > across the surface of the planet.
> >
>  
> Let me guess...the thing is a spinal mount in this really, REALLY big
> spherical hull...right? ;P
> 

Ask Joe, *HE'S* the one who wants it.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

I'd like to preface this with my opinion that you CAN'T burn up this much fuel that
quickly and controllably (i.e. without just blowing it all up).

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Because *IF* you burn the fuel internally, then you don't have to assume that
> > ALL the fuel is burned at once. Thus you don't need the unbelievably high
> > capacity capacitors. You don't run into the question about why they haven't been
> > implemented as weapons. You don't have the question of why its so important for
> > the fuel pure hydrogen... Basically, it eliminates a whole bunch of handwaves.
>
> Why would anybody in their right minds want to use a jump engine as a weapon?

Because its reusable.  I'm not talking about using the jump engine, I'm talking about
using the energy conversion process that a jump engine uses. If you use the same
process on a weapon you could get an astronomical pulse.

> > You either use the fuel directly from the drop

> > > tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> > > from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> > > drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> > > them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> > > and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> > > the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
> > > capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
> > > less reasonable IMO.
> >
> > Jump with internal fuelRefuel with tanks
> > Eject tanks
> > Jump with internal fuel  sans tank displacement
> >
> > Not: form jump point and pump like crazy
>
> You miss the point *AGAIN*.
>
> You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.

Duh! I'm arguing that the sheer power generated by the instantaneous conversion of so
much hydrogen is far greater than any reasonable capacitor could hold (reasonable =
less than 7400 times the size of the ship).  If Zuchai crystals are this effective at
storing energy, why aren't they used for weapons?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:55:16 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 08:33 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>> No it won't. And infinite plane (so we can ignore edge effects), has a
>> field of the form:
>>
>>         A=k*G*Density*thickness
>>
>> Note that there is *no* factor for the distance from the plane. From
>> the surface to infinity the acceleration due to gravity is the same.
>
>So you're saying that this plane will accelerate the universe towards it?  If
>gravity doesn't drop off, then you've just accelerated the universe...
that seems
>slightly less than possible.

It is nonetheless 100% true for an infinite plate.  It is less true for a
finite plate.  See my previous derivation for a finite one, but you might
well be surprised at just how well a disc of radius r pretends to be an
infinite plate, to the extent needed.  In essence, as long as the radius of
the plate is on the order at least as big as the object in question's
length and distance from the disc, and the object does not get too close to
the edge, a flat plate's gravity is essentially uniform.

If you get far enough from such a plate, it looks like a point source, as
does ANY object once you get far enough away.

>> > Unless
>> > you can think of a source in which all points within the ship are
equidistant
>> > from it, you'll always have this problem.
>>
>> Nope. Work it out, you have to sum the contribution of each point in
>> the plane, and when you do, it turns out that the contributions add up
>> to the same amount regardless of distance!
>
>Actually I did. I can't give you the exact formula but since all points
yielded
>higher gravity at D than at D+L then the sum would be greater.

You might wish to get the exact formula.  Reasoning by analogy is not
always reliable.  Halliday and Resnick give a very detailed explanation of
how to derive the gravitational effect of a few surfaces, and a flat plate
is an easy generalization, assuming you do not believe my math.

The key is that D+L, your angle on to the plate is larger than at D, so
even though you are substantially closer to the points at the center of
your disc at D, the contribution in the vertical direction from points near
the horizon is small, and because they exactly balance, even though you are
farther away from any given plate bit, more plate bits are pulling you in
as you get farther away.  This breaks down as soon as edge effects become
important, but that happens surprisingly late, even for a relatively small
plate.  Shefflied, for example, used a disc that produced ~ 50Gs at the
center, and which was only a few hundred meters across for a series of
stories.

>However as the
>plane reaches infinity, that sum approaches infinite.  Since both sums would
>approach infinity then (technically) both D and D+L would accelerate to
the plane
>at infinite speed.

At the same time as the amount of mass seen is approaching infinity, the
pull that is in the "towards the center of the disc" (which I have been
calling vertical) direction is dropping to zero.  As a result, exactly what
happens depends on geometry.  For a plane, they exactly cancel, while an
infinite wire falls off as a log.

> I don't think this was the intention.  I think the intention was
>to generate a finite acceleration on point D which would be equal to the
finite
>acceleration on point D+L.

It does, and you can work out the math fairly easily as long as you
remember that any pull which is cancelled by another pull does not matter,
and any pull that is not towards the plate vanishes via symmetry.

Scott 

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:06:08 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Artificial gravity

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
 
> Leonard Erickson writes:
 
> >Nobody in their right mind would grapple to a hostile ship. It's *way*
> >too easy to pull the "suicide" bit and blast both ships to vapor.
 
> That all depends on the conventions in force at the time and in the place
> in question. 

That's right.

> IMTU Under the rules of war used by the Imperium and it's major neighbors a
> helpless ship surrenders the moment it is helpless and under the guns of an
> enemy ship. 

In *military* situations, mine works much the same way. All the local
powers have a convention of taking prisoners and treating them
*reasonably* well.  While a crew (the officers naturally) think they can
repair and escape or continue fighting they will, but with the choice of
certain destruction and capture will opt to "save lives" and surrender. 
Of course, *some* officers might be the type to take their ship down
with them and won't surrender for any reason, their ships would be
destroyed if defeated. It might even be a situation where the defeated
ship is called on to surrender, its Captain refuses, abandons ship and
destroys it himself.  A trick like accepting surrender terms then
exploding your ship when the opponent grapples, or destroying yourself
without warning while grappled could very well be a capital war crime
and survivors of such acts would be treated like criminals not captured
sailors.

If it's a private attacker, ie pirates, things aren't quite so
civilized. Pirates want to capture ships and their cargos, the parts of
the ship not destroyed are valuable even if they can't repair and use
the captured ship, after all. Because they really don't want the ship
destroyed they are going to be more willing to board a disabled ship
than just stand off and blow it up.  Merchants are going to be more
willing to surrender (or at least not destroy their ship) if they expect
a fate better than death for doing so, too.

> But one thing I'm sure of: If the defenders
> of an otherwise helpless ship is able to make it impossible for an attacker
> to capture it in the face of opposition, the defending ship will either be
> forced to refrain from offering opposition or it will be destroyed. I can't
> see the victor allowing the loser to just go its merry way.

I can't either. A gallant crew that fights a good fight, then surrenders
might be taken to a friendly (or neutral port) rather than a POW camp,
but they won't keep their ship. They might be offered a place in the
crew/navy that captured them, who knows if the same kind of loyalty
toward nation states exists in the 35th century! 
All this depends on the accepted rules of war for the time and place of
your campaign. They don't have to be late 20th century rules, they can
be whatever rules you want them to be.

Eris

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #414
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 415



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Product Review
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: FTL commo
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Jumpspace
Re: surrendering
Re: older Traveller products
Re: Product Review
Re: Product Review
Starmap
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:22:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Product Review

On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> At 09:13 PM 4/19/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> >> And who said piracy wasn't possible in Traveller...
> 
> >Why piracy?
> >He isnt proposing selling copies, hes just selling his own copy.
> >He paid for it and its his to sell! Why shouldnt you be able to sell 
> >software like you would a used car or old sofa? As long as you dont keep
> a copy on you
> >hard drive...
> 
> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.

Not to get too deep into the piracy morass, but, those sorts of blanket
'Oops you looked at it, you can use it but you don't own this copy' sorts
of licenses have _never_ held up in court. You are allowed to sell your
copy of the program to one other person, provided you destroy all copies
in your posession _or_ transfer them to the new owner.

Some software companies have tried to shut down some used software shops
on that basis, and the courts slapped 'em down. Same thing was tried with
records, videos and CD's with the same results...if you pay money for a
recording (sofware, video or music) the courts (at least in the US) have
consistently held that you own that copy and can sell it as you wish, just
so long as you don't retain a copy. 

_Renting_ it, on the other hand, that's a different kettle of fish.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:23:25 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> >
> > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > > > warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Just where can I get ahold of these high capacity accumulators, I'm
> > > > working on a planet buster cannon, and I'm converting its hydrosphere
> > > > instantaneously into energy so that I can get a nice polished surface
> > > > when I melt it into a glass ball....
> > >
> > > You're coming up with a design that will burn *TRILLIONS* of tons of hydrogen
> > > at once?  It'd be cheaper to just drop 1 MT tactical nukes at 1 km intervals
> > > across the surface of the planet.
> > >
> >
> > Let me guess...the thing is a spinal mount in this really, REALLY big
> > spherical hull...right? ;P
> >
>
> Ask Joe, *HE'S* the one who wants it.

That was sarcasm.
A TL 12  Fusion reactor consumes .15 kL per MW  power in one year
A 100 DT Jump 1 vessel uses up 140 kL fuel (double that for CT I think)
That amounts to  29,030,400,000 Mj
The jump drive takes up 2% of the tonnage or 28 kL
Assuming zuchai crystals make up 100% of the drive, they can store a TRILLION Mj per
kL.
A TL 21 (twenty one) HPG can only store 200 Mj per kL.
So if zuchai crystals are THAT much more efficient at converting/storing energy, why
aren't they used for weapons?

Cost?  Lets see...
TL 12 Zuchai Crystal/jump drive: .3Mcr per KL for a Trillion Mj = .0003 cr/Mj
TL 21 HPG: .01 Mcr per KL for 200 MJ = 50 cr/Mj
No, not cost...

Storage time?
Zuchai crystals have to be discharged quickly while HPG's can hold their charge for a
long time... But so what, you're storing your energy as H2 which will store
indefinitely.
No, not Storage time...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:22:03 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> > How far out is the Oort Cloud?  Its got plenty of snowballs, doesn't it?
 
> There's the Kuiper Belt, which is a ways beyond Pluto. The Oort Cloud
> is a lot farther out. We really need input from the astromers :-)

I'm doing this from memory, and might be wrong, but Kuiper Belt 20 to
40AU, Oort Cloud ~100 to a few thousand AU..maybe a few tens of thousand
AU.

And yes, we need input from the astronomers on this.

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:38:46 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:25 -0400 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>Duh! I'm arguing that the sheer power generated by the instantaneous 
>conversion of so
>much hydrogen is far greater than any reasonable capacitor could hold 
>(reasonable =
>less than 7400 times the size of the ship).  If Zuchai crystals are 
>this effective at
>storing energy, why aren't they used for weapons?
>
>


Its not totally converted to energy IMTU.  Only a small fraction of the
hydrogen is fused by the engine, and this power is used to generate a
high temperature plasma, which is blown through superconducting rings
(Zuchai crystals?) to create the jump point.  The rings are a very
particular mix of ceramics and metals, very hard to produce, and the only
result of charging them (via the magnetic fields of the plasma) is the
opening of a jump point.  Useless as a weapon.  The use of hydrogen
plasma to do this is required because the plasma, at a particular
temperature, resonates the rings to open jump space.  Any other element
won't do it, and impurities in the hydrogen can result in unstable points
opening.  So, if you don't mind the breeze my hands are making, thats how
jump drives work IMTU.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire!

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:35:05 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard.  I actually agree with you but I would like to
>make this point; your numbers are the result you get at TL 7/8.  What would
>it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL 15?  It would seem to me by TL 10+ we
>would have extremely efficient solar batteries and possibly even a solar
>sail type array to produce reasonable amounts of power, possibly even enough
>to power some _low_ power COLD storage units.

Ooh ooh. I can answer this one.

Even TL advances shouldn't ignore the basic laws of physics. The highest
efficiency a high-tech solar array could get would be slightly less than
100%. The problem is not technological capability but rather just the
amount of available energy per unit area. That far out, there just isn't a
lot to be had.

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:39:08 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: FTL commo

> >Anyway...as I  said in an earlier post, a 1-m telescope with a 1-kilowatt
> >laser can get moderate bandwidth (100 bits per second) at a few parsecs;
> >[a number which turned out to be wrong - see a previous post by me]

>Actually, if we apply Traveller (TNE FFS) tech to it we get an enormous
>problem... short range is determined by focal diameter. It maxes at 10(6D(in
>meters))^2*TL range factor based on wavelength of light.  At TL 12 its actually
>10(5D)^2*100 km for a Far UV laser.  That 1M laser telescope would have a short
>range of 25,000 km.  Which makes the Parsecs away distant receiver unreachable.

the target doesn't need to be at short range (or even extreme range);
those are just convienient markers at which the intensity has dropped to 
1/1 - 1/4 - 1/16 - 1/64 of full intensity. Since we only need to get 
10^-20 or so of input intensity on the target to communicate, you can
communicate well past short range. (And, since the beam spreads quite a bit,
hitting the target is actually quite easy.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:31:58 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 02:10 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:

>> If we let L become arbitrarily large, it will send the /(f^2+L^2) term to
>> zero.

>The original discussion was for a high L (length of ship) to D (distance from
>plane) ratio and an extremely high gravitational force (comparable to
black holes)

L is NOT the length of the ship in my post.  L is the disc radius.  The
largest difference will happen when the nose of the ship is touching the
plate, and the back is at height h, so your tidal effects are revealed in
the deltaFy formula.

To requote my final results:

> Fy = 2 Pi G M s p (1 - 1/(f^2+L^2))
> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

In other words, as long as the radius of the disc is larger than the length
of the ship in any meaningful way, you will have no real tide problem.

>> G = 6.67e-11
>> p = 7.87 g/cc = 7870 kg/m^3.
>> s = 7e6

>Now plug in the numbers for the starship simulation. Density comparable to
black
>hole, Length = 51 meters (much longer for capital ships). Thickness of
disk would
>be a few meters (placing the gravity field "close" to the front of the ship.)

Very well.  I am going to use densities far smaller than a black hole.  Use
material with a density of 10e11 Kg/M^3.  (A million times denser than
iron.)  For sake of argument, lets use a 2 meter thick disc a hundred
meters across.

> Fy = 2 Pi G M s p (1 - 1/(f^2+L^2))

Let us first see what force we would feel standing at the center.

= 2 Pi 6.67e-11 1 2 10e11 (1 - 1/100^2))

= 84 N, or about 8 gravs.

Now, how big is the tidal force.  Remember, this disc is only twice as
large in radius, more or less as your 51 meter ship, so we are talking a
physical object or magical field not much bigger than the ship's near space.

> deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ -h^2/(L^2 h^2+L^4) ]

h = 51, L = 100

deltaFy = 2 Pi G M s p [ - 51^2/( 51^2 * 100^2 + 100^4)]
deltaFy = 84 * [2601 /(2601*10,000 + 100,000,000)]
deltaFy = 84 * [2601 /(2601 + 10,000)]
deltaFy = 84 * 0.2064

or about 1.7 gravs.  Uncomfortable?  Yes, but this is for a situation where
h is pretty near to L.  Let L be something reasonable, and you can get
whatever small tides you care about.  I, personally, would want to make
sure that my design had L at least four or five times h.

Let me emphasize that - this is a ridiculous configuration if you care
about tidal stress, and you _still_ do not get unreasonable tides.

>The big problem is that if you generate a gravity field,
>that field decreases in strength inversely with the square of the distance.

Only if you limit yourself to point sources without geometry.  Put those
sources in an arrangement, and you can get virtually any field
configuration you like.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:43:22 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 08:04 AM 4/20/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Joe Petit wrote
>> Sorry, but other posts have gone thru the *calculus* involved and come
>> up with that same formula *except they had the proper value for k).

I posted same, and would be willing to do so again, if any of the
interested parties have lost it.

>> > For  a point source:
>> > F=GMm/d^2

Make darn sure you get the direction in the calculation.

>> > Since we're dealing with a nonvarying gravity body and the ship isn't
losing
>> > mass, GMm will be constant (we'll use K to represent this):
>> > F=K/d^2
>>
>> You just made your first mistake.
>>
>> A=GM/D^2 for a *point* source. The mass of the ship doesn't enter into it.
>
>You're right. Acceleration = K/d^2.  Sorry I mislabeled it.

You cannot work this way, unless you are also willing to account for the
component of the force that is radial.  You might want to just look up the
appropriate integration technique, since getting numerical integration to
work is exciting at the best of times, and it is not always obvious how to
best approximate a continuous world with a discrete simulation.

>> When figuring the field of a *non*-point source, you have to figure for
>> each and every point *seperately*, which means that you figure the
>> attraction based *only* on the mass at that point.

YES!  Very important point.

>Since the integration was rather complicated, I instead generated a large
field of
>point sources and summed the results.  This gave me a general idea of what
the
>gravitational acceleration looks like... it wasn't uniform with respect to h.

Then your general idea is not accurate.  (NB - we know this by doing the
integral, and seeing what the correct answer is.  If an approximation does
not simplify to the known good results in the infinite cases, then it is
likely giving you unusual answers for the finite case we care about.)

>> That's why you got the wrong answer. At height H above the plane, only an
>> ifinitesmal
>> amount of mass is at distance H, that's the point directly under the
>> ship. A radius r from that point, you have "rings" of attracting mass,
>> and as r increases, the mass involved goes up as the *square* of the
>> radius.
>>
>> Since your calculations ignore this, there's no point going on. Check
>> the post that did the correct calculations.
>
>My calculations DID include this.  You didn't get to the part where I said
"do a
>surface revolution about the axis of acceleration." (which was
conciderably more
>complicated than k/r^2)

Much of that complication, though, came about as a result of the coordinate
system.  Use polar coordinates, and the distance of an element of mass dm
becomes easier.  Then, once you make sure that you count only the radial
effects, not the transverse ones, you should be OK.  In your surface of
revolution, you did not, IIRC, take the directional nature of the force
into account.

       y

x1         x2

Only the vertical component of the forces exerted by x1 and x2 matter, so
you do need that angle.  The horizontal components cancel, and I seem to
recall that your surface of revolution produced a difficult integral, which
a coordinate change would fix, and did not include only the proper component.

Scott 
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:44:33 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: surrendering

> That all depends on the conventions in force at the time and in the place
> in question. 
> IMTU Under the rules of war used by the Imperium and it's major neighbors a
> helpless ship surrenders the moment it is helpless and under the guns of an
> enemy ship. 

This is very close to 19th-century naval ettiqute; ships that have been
battered into helplessness - or are just massively overmatched - would
"strike their colours" and surrender. Captured crews would be treated 
reasonably well - officers that have "given their parole" would be 
probably be given moderate freedom to move around the capturing ship. 
In some cases captured officers who had given their parole would be allowed
to go back to a friendly port, as long as they agreed not to perform 
actual military service until such a time as they were "exchanged" for an
equivalent psedo-prisoner. 

Since Traveller starships will tend not to explode but just get mission-killed
(like a wooden sailing ship tends not to sink but just get crippled) this
behaviour will probably be fairly common in Traveller universes...or at least
IMTU. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:44:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 01:11 AM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> >> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> >> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> >> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> >> rules while your at it.  
> >
> >This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
> >other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
> >you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)
> 
> If you include the shooting, this is Oakland, California.  Delete the
> shooting but add numerous 20-30 degree hills and you've got San Francisco.
> --

Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
seen such anarchy on the roads. Green means go, yellow means go faster,
and red means floor it, you might still make it through. At least SF and
Oakland have stoplights.  You've never driven insanely till you've hit a
Boston traffic circle. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:42:58 -0500
From: Eris reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Product Review

TravelrTNE wrote:

> Eris the Heretic wrote:
 
> >Oh, about Astrologicus and Teralogicus...yes, they are very interesting,
> >but frankly, I haven't gotten much utility out of either for Traveller
> >games. I've ended up using Galactic much more.
 
> I agree completely.  

It's good to know we agree about something! ;-p

>I'm working on a 2300AD'esque near future game (w/ TNE  rules, of course)...  

Of course. ;->

> ...instead of Galactic, i'm using the equally excellent Starmap, also by Jim V.  

Hey! We agree again!  Are the planets in alignment today or what? ;->

> As for the Astrologicus and Terralogicus.  They're neat, but I just haven't used  > em much. I made several suggestions for features...but for various reasons
> they told me it wasn't gonna happen. 
 
Same here. The last version I got from them was 1.05, what are they up
to now?

Eris

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:03:31 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Product Review

Speaking about Logicrucible, check their web site (sorry, I dont have the
URL handy) and download their free (yep, thats right, free, cheapo, nada
monero, costs ya nuthin) name generator.  Its neat, simple, and you can
write your own file for making names that fit your campaign.  Its nice.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:05:25 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Starmap

Speaking about Jim V's Starmap, I cant seem to locate it.  Its not on his
web site.  Anyone have an idea where I can get it?  Thanks



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:00:54 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> At 02:10 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>
> >> If we let L become arbitrarily large, it will send the /(f^2+L^2) term to
> >> zero.
>
> >The original discussion was for a high L (length of ship) to D (distance from
> >plane) ratio and an extremely high gravitational force (comparable to
> black holes)
>
> L is NOT the length of the ship in my post.  L is the disc radius.  The
> largest difference will happen when the nose of the ship is touching the
> plate, and the back is at height h, so your tidal effects are revealed in
> the deltaFy formula.

Wait... let me get this straight...
Your ship is flying parallel to this disk?
At a given height above said disk gravity will be uniform?

MY ship is flying PERPENDICULAR to this plane, i.e. falling nose first into the
gravitational plane.

I think we've been arguing two entirely different things.  Yes my formula was
wrong, because I was not flying parrallel but perpedicularly to the ship.  Yes, at
a given height above an infinite plane, gravity will be uniform.

But that isn't my argument... If you fly AT a gravitational plane, your nose will
accelerate faster than your tail.  At sufficient gravities, heights and ship
lengths, this tidal force will rip the nose off your ship. THAT is my argument.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:08:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

james a clem wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:25 -0400 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> writes:
> >Duh! I'm arguing that the sheer power generated by the instantaneous
> >conversion of so
> >much hydrogen is far greater than any reasonable capacitor could hold
> >(reasonable =
> >less than 7400 times the size of the ship).  If Zuchai crystals are
> >this effective at
> >storing energy, why aren't they used for weapons?
> >
> >
>
> Its not totally converted to energy IMTU.  Only a small fraction of the
> hydrogen is fused by the engine, and this power is used to generate a
> high temperature plasma, which is blown through superconducting rings
> (Zuchai crystals?) to create the jump point.  The rings are a very
> particular mix of ceramics and metals, very hard to produce, and the only
> result of charging them (via the magnetic fields of the plasma) is the
> opening of a jump point.  Useless as a weapon.  The use of hydrogen
> plasma to do this is required because the plasma, at a particular
> temperature, resonates the rings to open jump space.  Any other element
> won't do it, and impurities in the hydrogen can result in unstable points
> opening.  So, if you don't mind the breeze my hands are making, thats how
> jump drives work IMTU.

You've just described the making of a wormhole.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:18:58 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>Thom Harris wrote:
> > > What about the low berths running off of solar panels (for
> > > recharge). The low berths are already battery powered and you
> > > can get a couple of blankets of solar panels (take up less
> > > space) and unroll them on the surface of the ship.

> Shadow wrote:
> > Slight problem. Solar panels output depends *directly* on the
> > amount of light shining on them. If you've jumped into an
> > "empty" hex, that light is too feeble to power much of
> > anything. Now, at 200,000 AU the energy is 1/40,000,000,000th
> > as strong. So you'd have 25 *nano*watts per square meter.
> > (25e-9). So to get 1 kW, you'd need a 200 km square array of
> > solar cells at 100% efficiency.


>Thom Harris wrote:
>> Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard. I actually agree with you but I
>> would like to make this point; your numbers are the result you
>> get at TL 7/8. What would it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL
>> 15? It would seem to me by TL 10+ we would have extremely
>> efficient solar batteries and possibly even a solar sail type
>> array to produce reasonable amounts of power, possibly even
>> enough to power some _low_ power COLD storage units. The units
>> could even get a boost from the cold of space to augment their
>> requirements.


>Trisen wrote
>No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>efficiency).
>

Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.  Who's to
say what they will be made from 5000 years from now.  To assume that
the ability to get more from less doesn't exist in the future is like assuming
that there isn't any other planets in the entire universe with intelligent life on
them.  Thanks, I'd rather not if you don't mind.  Maybe my imagination is a
little off skew here but I just find it very hard to believe that we will still be
using silicon for CPU's in 5000 years.  Based on that what will solar batteries
be made of.  Hell I don't know but then again I don't believe you do either. I
know its difficult for you to make that quantum leap here out of the year 1998
but I bet you can do it if you just try.  Don't throw todays physics at me either,
I don't think all todays rules will be in effect then.  They have made HUGE
leaps in physics in just the last 35 years so I think there will be a few more
surprises over the next 5000, what do you think....

>
>On the subject of "low power  cold  storage  units":  First,  the
>energy requirements stated in  the rules  already  take  TL  into
>account.  Second, according to a DGP article I read years ago ...
>the key to the low berth process is cooling the victim  (sorry, I
>mean 'subject') in such a way that ice crystals  don't  form  and
>cause massive widespread cell damage (especially to brain cells).
>This is achieved by manipulating the atomic forces  in  much  the
>same way as nuclear damper  technology  works.  While  'cold'  is
>often defined as the absence  of  atomic  and  molecular  kinetic
>energy, and reducing this kinetic energy is what low  berths  do,
>the low berth is perhaps more properly thought of as a  partially
>successful stasis device.  If 'natural'  cold  is  used  ...  ice
>crystals ... cells become slush ... subject dies.
>
>(Appologies if I've mis-remembered the DGP article, I don't  have
>it with me at the moment.)
>

Lets see, your already frozen and gone thru the manipulation to be
"cryo-suspended".  I'll bet there is a chance that a little space cold
which is somewhere around -3 k won't have any effect what so ever
since you've already gone well past the ice crystal stage.  Does that
theory have any merit what so ever.  I say theory because as far as I
know its never been tested to see if in fact there is some little dreg of
fluid left in your that didn't get frozen so that it might become a crystal.
Another thing about this is, only the cells that get ice crystals die, not
the whole body.

If I seem a little testy its because this is a game and as game masters
and players we should be doing things that help our fellow PC's to stay
alive.  Our job isn't to kill them off willy nilly, its to let them and us
have
some FUN.....

 Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:21:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>
>On Sat, 18 Apr 1998, Peter Newman wrote:
>
>> Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> wrote
>>
>> Noter that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
>> this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
>> Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
>> without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
>> Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of
>> air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficinet
>> fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to process
>> this much fuel.
>
>WOW shades of "V"
>
>...whatta sicko idea for a vampire ship. heh heh heh.
>
>Bruce Johnson
>
I liked this one too.  Its just a little bit of stretch for me to
incorporate
but my mind drew the pictures.
Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #415
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 416



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop tanks 
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: surrendering
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Product Review
. . . the water was FREEZING
Re: Artificial gravity
Re: older Traveller products
Trading in Traveller
Re: Drop Tanks
Freelance Traveller Updated
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop tanks
Grav Plates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 12:28:50 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)

I misread Brian Mays offering of his copy to be an offer to make a copy of
the software.  To much work on the Lunion project makes the brain grow
fuzz.  My apologies.
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:33:55 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>>Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard.  I actually agree with you but I would like
to
>>make this point; your numbers are the result you get at TL 7/8.  What
would
>>it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL 15?  It would seem to me by TL 10+ we
>>would have extremely efficient solar batteries and possibly even a solar
>>sail type array to produce reasonable amounts of power, possibly even
enough
>>to power some _low_ power COLD storage units.
>
>Ooh ooh. I can answer this one.
>
>Even TL advances shouldn't ignore the basic laws of physics. The highest
>efficiency a high-tech solar array could get would be slightly less than
>100%. The problem is not technological capability but rather just the
>amount of available energy per unit area. That far out, there just isn't a
>lot to be had.
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>
Like I said in another reply, what if solar panels were made from something
else
entirely and then you have another complete set of characteristics to get to
100%.
Do you think computer CPU's are going to be made out of silicon in the
future?
That doesn't change the fact that its still have a computer now does it?
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:31:43 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > Why would anybody in their right minds want to use a jump engine as a weapon?
> 
> Because its reusable.  I'm not talking about using the jump engine, I'm talking about
> using the energy conversion process that a jump engine uses. If you use the same
> process on a weapon you could get an astronomical pulse.

No it's not.  If the results of a misjump is 'ship destroyed', *THE SHIP IS 
DESTROYED*.  What part of this *DON'T* you understand?  The 'energy conversion 
process' *NEEDS* that expensive equipment to *PRODUCE* the jump effect.  If it 
*didn't* do you *REALLY* think somebody would spend that kind of money on the 
equipment?  If the ship is *destroyed*, what's left to re-use?  Which parts of 
this are you having problems understanding?

And what the hell is 'an astronomical pulse'?

> 
> > > You either use the fuel directly from the drop
> 
> > > > tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> > > > from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> > > > drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> > > > them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> > > > and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> > > > the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
> > > > capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
> > > > less reasonable IMO.
> > >
> > > Jump with internal fuelRefuel with tanks
> > > Eject tanks
> > > Jump with internal fuel  sans tank displacement
> > >
> > > Not: form jump point and pump like crazy
> >
> > You miss the point *AGAIN*.
> >
> > You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.
> 
> Duh! I'm arguing that the sheer power generated by the instantaneous conversion of so
> much hydrogen is far greater than any reasonable capacitor could hold (reasonable =
> less than 7400 times the size of the ship).  If Zuchai crystals are this effective at
> storing energy, why aren't they used for weapons?
> 

Who says it's instantaneous?  Where did you read this?  Under the CT Book 2 
rules, you declared you were going to jump, then you jumped on the next turn, 
20 minutes later.  In the Starship Operator's Manual, part of the jump drive 
equipment is 'a small high-energy fusion reactor', which burns the jump fuel 
*fast*.  Fast is not instant.  And considering that a high speed burn would be 
rougher on a reactor than a normal burn, it gives a canonical reason for the 
annual maintanance fees because you're relining the inside of your jump drive 
reactor, among other things.

And which ruleset gives you the figures that the Zochai crystal bank is 
1/7400th of the size of the ship?  *PLEASE* don't tell me it's GURPS.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 10:58:19 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> Joe Pettit writes:

> >If you presuppose that drop tanks work in the manner described (as opposed
> >to the more reasonable, refill your internals/eject/jump method)

 
> Why is that more reasonable? You either use the fuel directly from the drop
> tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> the drop tanks to the internal tanks.

It seems to me that the fuel in whatever extra storage you carry could
be transferred to the main tank (limited only by capacity) at the same
time as the jump routine was being initiated. This would avoid any major
time requirements for dumping or ejecting useless baggage before jump.
My reading of the rules does not infer that going to jump is a major
undertaking requiring total dedication by all the crew and power
supplies, and multitasking must be commonplace by this time.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:01:17 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>Assuming zuchai crystals make up 100% of the drive, they can store a  
>TRILLION Mj per kL

This is why many people (like me) favour the "jump ballast" fuel-isn't-used-for
energy model...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 21:52 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: surrendering

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> This is very close to 19th-century naval ettiqute; ships that have been
> battered into helplessness - or are just massively overmatched - would
> "strike their colours" and surrender.

	now lets think they have some short range KKMs left on board,
	they just want to fight some time (for repair) or they are
	playing an other bad tricky thing. For this reason the "winning"
	party want to be sure, and has to act with caution. Typical they
	ask that the surrenderer is taking a stable orbit, or that they
	have to drift and to power down. A vessel that announce to surrender
	during a larger battle, could be counted as a win even if they manage
	to repair and jump out without being boarded. For this reason a
	surrender is often prevendet by fleet command. A ship has to show
	flags up, just to stay a target for the enemy and to prevent the
	opponent to concentrate fire on more potent vessels. Small ships
	like the Gazelle has seperations of crew and officiers to prevent
	mutiny in such situations.

	After the battle is done, the surrendered will be asked for a body
	swap. They have to send some officiers (not all) out by thuster
	packs, and have to accept a prise (sp?) crew (german:Priesenbesatzung).
	By just sending 1-3 officers (depending on size of the ship) as
	bodyswap to arrange the surrender over a long distance (sometimes
	8 light seconds, as most captains wont even risk a shipsboat ;-)
	the risk, that the surrender is a bad trick is reduced.

> Captured crews would be treated reasonably well

	if the enemy is known to kill PoW's or to sell them to slavery
	a surrender is less likely. Last times my players had to surrender,
	they found theirselfs on board of the DD-Midu. Now they have a
	tripple jump TL:10 Yacht just for this reason.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:07:05 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

> There's the Kuiper Belt, which is a ways beyond Pluto. The Oort Cloud
> is a lot farther out. We really need input from the astromers :-)

As someone said, inner Kuiper belt objects have been found at around 20 AU.
No-one really knows where the outer edge is; the Kuipter belt is a largely
theoretical constracut, based on arguments about solar system formation
(the apparent density of the protosolar disk seems pretty smooth out to 
Neptune, so there could well be lots of mass past Neptune's orbit) and 
comets (the Kuiper belt is a "resevoir" for medium-short period comets. 
You'd expect it to trail off by 100 AU, but that's a fuzzy number.

The Oort cloud is even more hypothetical - no object out in the Oort cloud
has ever been detected, nor is one likely to be in the near future - but
again is based on comet statistics, as a "resevoir" for long-period comets.
No-one knows what the edge of it is, though there are lots of comets
with periods of several million years => Oort cloud at least 40000 AU out.
Probably much past 40-100,000 AU it gets disrupted by other stars.
So, on the whole, a given star's Kuiper belt is fairly tightly associated
with the star, and the Oort cloud does extend past the edge of the star's
hex (=bad news for misjumped people.)

Another misjump note: most people seem to assume that when you come out of
misjump in an occupied hex you're suitably close to the the star in that
hex to reach it easily - which (if true) implies some tendancy for misjumps
to "seek out" gravity wells.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:36:16 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Does this mean I can patent this?  


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.


On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 15:08:01 -0400 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>
>james a clem wrote:

>>
>> Its not totally converted to energy IMTU.  Only a small fraction of 
>the
>> hydrogen is fused by the engine, and this power is used to generate 
>a
>> high temperature plasma, which is blown through superconducting 
>rings
>> (Zuchai crystals?) to create the jump point.  The rings are a very
>> particular mix of ceramics and metals, very hard to produce, and the 
>only
>> result of charging them (via the magnetic fields of the plasma) is 
>the
>> opening of a jump point.  Useless as a weapon.  The use of hydrogen
>> plasma to do this is required because the plasma, at a particular
>> temperature, resonates the rings to open jump space.  Any other 
>element
>> won't do it, and impurities in the hydrogen can result in unstable 
>points
>> opening.  So, if you don't mind the breeze my hands are making, 
>thats how
>> jump drives work IMTU.
>
>You've just described the making of a wormhole.
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:37:19 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Product Review

> >Why piracy?

> Because the software agreement clearly states that you have bought the
> right to place one copy on one computer.  By opening the envelope
> containing the disk you agreed to their terms.  Logicrucible is a very
> small company, and I support their right to protect themselves and their
> products.

And one copy it will remain, only on a different computer. He is not copying the
product, he is just selling something he isnt using. Otherwise, everybody selling any
used software-product would be pirating it. That however sets the limit too high. When
you buy the product, you can also later sell it. Otherwise the purchaser of a software
product would be at a severe disadvantage to the buyer of any other product.
Piracy is copying and distribution software to others, not selling your olny, legally
bought copy (as long as you dont keep a copy on your drive)
> --
> 
> +-------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
> |    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
> +-------------------------------------+
> | "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
> |  to be a non-conformist too."       |
> |                      -Lenny Bruce   |
> +-------------------------------------+

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:54:06 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: . . . the water was FREEZING

. . . but Brian tenuously dips his toe back into the pool . . .

After the cries of PIRATES AHOY! and the lengthy thread that my last
mercantile offer spawned, I will ask this:  is it ok to sell/auction
Traveller items on this list, or is that better left to the
rec.rpg.merchandise (or whatever it's called) newsgroup?  I haven't belonged
to this list for long enough to know if such things are considered gauche.

Brian (potentially with a hidden cache of Traveller stuff) Mays

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Artificial gravity

Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:49 -0400, ringrose@ascent.com

> There's a thread going on about artificial gravity, and using it to
> defend the ship.

> >From a GMing perspective I believe rapid alterations in gravity are
> bad:

[Deletions...]

I agree with the problem from a GM perspective.  My solution
is that every grav plate has a control module in the corner.
The boarders just shoot the modules as they go along and
fight from 0-gee.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 14:11:49 -0700
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

>Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
>drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
>seen such anarchy on the roads. Green means go, yellow means go faster,
>and red means floor it, you might still make it through. At least SF and
>Oakland have stoplights.  You've never driven insanely till you've hit a
>Boston traffic circle. 

Amen Bruce!  hehe, that's exactly how I felt when I was there this last
week.  Soon I'll be living there.  SIGH.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:10:21 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Trading in Traveller

There is an online article entitled "The $11 Billion Bottle of Wine"
which analyzes the cost-effective of interstellar trading. What
makes it rather interesting (to me, at least)  is that it uses
Traveller as an example.

If you're interested in reading it and checking out its math, not
to mention the associated piece on Traveller, it can be found
at:

http://www.crossover.com/costik//inttrade.html#table

Enjoy!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:14:01 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >Assuming zuchai crystals make up 100% of the drive, they can store a
> >TRILLION Mj per kL
>
> This is why many people (like me) favour the "jump ballast" fuel-isn't-used-for
> energy model...

Same here... its a pretty convincing argument, eh?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:29:27 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller Updated

Subject line says it all - I've posted an update; a couple of
features that didn't have any links to them do now, the FAQ has
been updated, and a couple of new articles have been posted.

For what it's worth, the most popular feature so far seems to be
the Take Ship page in the multimedia gallery.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:47:33 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 03:18 PM 4/20/98 -0400, "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>Trisen wrote
>>No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>>more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>>meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>>efficiency).
>>
>Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.  Who's to
>say what they will be made from 5000 years from now.  To assume that
>the ability to get more from less doesn't exist in the future is like
>assuming that there isn't any other planets in the entire universe with
intelligent
>life on them.  Thanks, I'd rather not if you don't mind.

Postulate whatever tech you like, but if you want to use any kind of solar
cells, then you cannot get more power out of them than there is solar power
to retrieve.

In an empty hex, there is very little sunlight.  Even if we captured every
possible erg of energy, we cannot get more power than the surrounding stars
radiate.  Leonard figured out 25 nanowatts, and I am willing to believe the
number since he rarely screws up data like that, but if you do not, it is
not that hard to discover the total energy radiated by the sun, and then
work out what it would look like from a parsec away.

If there are only 25 nanowatts out there, then no matter what you make your
solar cells from, you cannot get more than that out.  For more than that,
you need to either bring your own power, or postulate a magic energy
machine which produces power from nothing.  Sheffield has made such a
machine the basis of a number of stores, but it leads to very different
results from Traveller.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:58:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 03:00 PM 4/20/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>> At 02:10 PM 4/17/98 -0400, Joe Petit wrote:
>>
>> >> If we let L become arbitrarily large, it will send the /(f^2+L^2)
term to
>> >> zero.
>>
>> >The original discussion was for a high L (length of ship) to D
(distance from
>> >plane) ratio and an extremely high gravitational force (comparable to
>> black holes)
>>
>> L is NOT the length of the ship in my post.  L is the disc radius.  The
>> largest difference will happen when the nose of the ship is touching the
>> plate, and the back is at height h, so your tidal effects are revealed in
>> the deltaFy formula.
>
>Wait... let me get this straight...
>Your ship is flying parallel to this disk?

No.  The disc is slapped on the front of the ship, since that gives you the
closest to a uniform field.

disc
|-|
|-|   /-----------------|
|-| / ship            | ship
|-| \ nose           | tail
|-|  \------------------|
|-|
|-|


>At a given height above said disk gravity will be uniform?
>
>MY ship is flying PERPENDICULAR to this plane, i.e. falling nose first
into the
>gravitational plane.

Yep.  So is mine.

>I think we've been arguing two entirely different things.  Yes my formula was
>wrong, because I was not flying parrallel but perpedicularly to the ship.
Yes, at
>a given height above an infinite plane, gravity will be uniform.

Above an infinite plane, gravity is uniform.  It does not involve distance
from the plate.  Even above a finite plane, the results is still very close
to uniform.  Your formula does not seem to take direction into account, but
I have not completely analyzed it.

>But that isn't my argument... If you fly AT a gravitational plane, your
nose will
>accelerate faster than your tail.  At sufficient gravities, heights and ship
>lengths, this tidal force will rip the nose off your ship. THAT is my
argument.

At sufficient gravities, but at those gravities, you are already
experiencing extreme gees of plain old non tidal acceleration.  For
rational levels, you will see very little tide.  My example was a 50 meter
long ship with the nose touching the center of a disc a hundred meters in
radius.  In this case, it is accelerating at 10G towards the plate (just
before it slams into it) and is experiencing a net tidal acceleration of 2
gees.  Even this worst case is likely not going to be able to shred the
vessel.

If the vessel is more reasonable, like a 10 meter vessel, then the field is
uniform to all practical purposes.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:41:40 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>>Even TL advances shouldn't ignore the basic laws of physics. The highest
>>efficiency a high-tech solar array could get would be slightly less than
>>100%.


>Like I said in another reply, what if solar panels were made from something
>else
>entirely and then you have another complete set of characteristics to get to
>100%.
>Do you think computer CPU's are going to be made out of silicon in the
>future?
>That doesn't change the fact that its still have a computer now does it?
>Thom

Well, see, 100% efficiency isn't likely -- the laws of thermodynamics allow
such a reversible system (I think), but it's doubtful that it would ever be
achieved in the real physical universe. Of course, this is science fiction,
sooo...

...Even if you *could* get 100% efficiency, I think the point was that
there is so little energy available to be harnessed by solar arrays that
far out that it wouldn't matter. If there is only a few hundred nanowatts
(oh heck, let's say a few tens of thousands of nanowatts :-) of energy
available, that's not enough to do anything with, even if you harness all
of 'em.

Surely you are not proposing a power plant with a greater than 100%
efficiency (a la perpetual motion machine). 8^O

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:42:38 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> >
> > > Why would anybody in their right minds want to use a jump engine as a weapon?
> >
> > Because its reusable.  I'm not talking about using the jump engine, I'm talking about
> > using the energy conversion process that a jump engine uses. If you use the same
> > process on a weapon you could get an astronomical pulse.
>
> No it's not.  If the results of a misjump is 'ship destroyed', *THE SHIP IS
> DESTROYED*.  What part of this *DON'T* you understand?

The part where you assume that I'm using the jump energy to jump rather than as a weapon
like I said in the first place.

> The 'energy conversion
> process' *NEEDS* that expensive equipment to *PRODUCE* the jump effect.  If it
> *didn't* do you *REALLY* think somebody would spend that kind of money on the
> equipment?  If the ship is *destroyed*, what's left to re-use?

Umm... the ship isn't destroyed.  You never jump. You use the same technology that creates
the energy pulse for the jump to generate a pulse for a weapon. In fact, there may not even
be a ship.

> Which parts of
> this are you having problems understanding?

The part where you think I'm talking about turning a ship into a bomb rather than using the
technology inherent to generating that power as a powersource for a weapon.

>
>
> And what the hell is 'an astronomical pulse'?
>

A Trillion Mj per kL of Jump machinery, 28 Trillion for a typical 100dT jump 1.

> >
> > > > You either use the fuel directly from the drop
> >
> > > > > tanks (And why it should matter to the jump drive whether its fuel comes
> > > > > from a drop tank or an internal tank is beyond me, especially since the
> > > > > drop tanks become internal tanks the moment the captain decides to retain
> > > > > them for this particular jump) or you use the fuel from the internal tanks
> > > > > and then delay proceedings for some minutes while you transfer fuel from
> > > > > the drop tanks to the internal tanks. So the second method requires the
> > > > > capacitors to store the energy for longer than the first. That makes it
> > > > > less reasonable IMO.
> > > >
> > > > Jump with internal fuelRefuel with tanks
> > > > Eject tanks
> > > > Jump with internal fuel  sans tank displacement
> > > >
> > > > Not: form jump point and pump like crazy
> > >
> > > You miss the point *AGAIN*.
> > >
> > > You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.
> >
> > Duh! I'm arguing that the sheer power generated by the instantaneous conversion of so
> > much hydrogen is far greater than any reasonable capacitor could hold (reasonable =
> > less than 7400 times the size of the ship).  If Zuchai crystals are this effective at
> > storing energy, why aren't they used for weapons?
> >
>
> Who says it's instantaneous?

Instantaneous in the sense that you have a few  seconds to fire it off after clearing the
drop tanks.

> Where did you read this?

I read it here on this list, where everyone (well, not everyone) is saying  that drop tanks
work that way.

> Under the CT Book 2
> rules, you declared you were going to jump, then you jumped on the next turn,
> 20 minutes later.  In the Starship Operator's Manual, part of the jump drive
> equipment is 'a small high-energy fusion reactor', which burns the jump fuel
> *fast*.  Fast is not instant.  And considering that a high speed burn would be
> rougher on a reactor than a normal burn, it gives a canonical reason for the
> annual maintanance fees because you're relining the inside of your jump drive
> reactor, among other things.

Using some math involving reactor power production, fuel consumption, etc. The Fusion
Reactor would have to be 7400 times the size of the ship to use up that much fuel in 10
seconds.  Divide that by 120 to get a 20 minute charge and you'd need a reactor 62 times
the size of the ship. That's just for jump 1.

>
>
> And which ruleset gives you the figures that the Zochai crystal bank is
> 1/7400th of the size of the ship?  *PLEASE* don't tell me it's GURPS.
>

Mathematics. TL 12 fusion reactors burn .15 kl fuel per MW in a YEAR
A jump 1 100dT ship burns 140 kl (x2 in CT I think)
That would be 140 kL/ .15 kL/MW-year * 360 days/year *24 hours/day * 3 turns/hour =
24,192,000 MW fusion Reactor. At TL 12 a kL reactor produces 2 MW of power, thus the
reactor would have to be  12,096,000 kL or  864,000 dTons or 8640 times the size of our
100dT ship.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:02:03 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Grav Plates

To enter the grav plates debate rather late, TNE specifically mentions that
it's possible to bounce folks to death with the deck plates - Grav-Pong
they called it. 

Apart from anything else, how would internal grav compensators compensate
for your violent maneuvering if they took days to charge up and alter their
field. 

Grav plates are a bit of a sod in boardings as a result - so you need to
cut the power or hack the computer.

But good news for the free trader crew trying to resist boarding, and
wondering if they can use the deck plates... the intruders might have
better guns but the crew have Canon on their side (!)

MJD.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #416
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 20 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 417



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: older Traveller products
Re: older Traveller products
Re: older Traveller products
Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: older Traveller products
Disaster Stories
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Cold Sleep Investments
RE: older Traveller products
RE: Disaster Stories
Re: Jumpspace
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Drop tanks
Recommended Books
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Grav Plates
Re: . . . the water was FREEZING
Re: Disaster Stories

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:55:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

Las Vegas has got you all beat. The worst drivers from Canada, LA, NY, and
Chicago among others all migrate here. Las Vegas is now worse than South
Florida (Oh yeah; have I told you about the old retirees in their damn blue
plates (the old plates) driving 10-15 mph slower than the posted speed limit
in the left lane, while the LA gangbangers in their lowriders cut you off
swerving around them?). We have the highest insurance rates in the country to
prove it. Of course I always thought that Las Vegas should be rated by TAS as
at least an amber zone....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:07:45 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

Mark Urbin wrote:

> Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> banged out:
> >>Closer to your new home is Excalibur Hobbies in Malden which has a very few
> >>older items (I mostly cleaned them out over the years, sorry) and a
> >>Compleat Strategist on Mass Ave in Boston which has at least the newer
> >>stuff and some MT books last time I was there.
> >I'm going to avoid Boston if at all possible, the streets are insane and
> so are the drivers...:)
>
>      Oh come on!  That's half the fun!  The real pain is the parking.

You think parking is tough, walking across the street.

>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> rules while your at it.

Man, you said.  I live at Packard's Corner and have had 2 near-death experiences
from hostile drivers.  Recently, One guy drove down the area where you wait for
the T.  He was almost on the tracks!  If I hadn't seen the reflected sunlight,
there is no way I could have gotten out of the way in time.  I was seeing the
whole life flash thing.  Its a good thing my favorite pub was only 20 yards away.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:14:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
> > At 01:11 AM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> > >> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> > >> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> > >> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> > >> rules while your at it.
> > >
> > >This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
> > >other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
> > >you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)
> >
> > If you include the shooting, this is Oakland, California.  Delete the
> > shooting but add numerous 20-30 degree hills and you've got San Francisco.
> > --
>
> Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
> drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
> seen such anarchy on the roads. Green means go, yellow means go faster,
> and red means floor it, you might still make it through. At least SF and
> Oakland have stoplights.  You've never driven insanely till you've hit a
> Boston traffic circle.

I love the absence of stop signs in residential neighborhoods.  You take your life
in your hands.   Especially  since all the corners are blind, no visibility.  So,
of course, no one wants to risk being slow at the wrong time, so floor it!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:15:37 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> I misread Brian Mays offering of his copy to be an offer to make a copy of
> the software.  To much work on the Lunion project makes the brain grow
> fuzz.  My apologies.

Whats the Lunion Project?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:22:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> The Oort cloud is even more hypothetical - no object out in the Oort cloud
> has ever been detected, nor is one likely to be in the near future - but
> again is based on comet statistics, as a "resevoir" for long-period comets.
> No-one knows what the edge of it is, though there are lots of comets
> with periods of several million years => Oort cloud at least 40000 AU out.

Whoa!  That's 2/3 a light year or 1/3 a parsec.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:24:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?

And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 16:25:04 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
> 
> > At 01:11 AM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
> > >>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> > >> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> > >> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> > >> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> > >> rules while your at it.
> > >
> > >This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
> > >other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
> > >you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)
> >
> > If you include the shooting, this is Oakland, California.  Delete the
> > shooting but add numerous 20-30 degree hills and you've got San Francisco.
> > --
> 
> Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
> drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
> seen such anarchy on the roads. Green means go, yellow means go faster,
> and red means floor it, you might still make it through. At least SF and
> Oakland have stoplights.  You've never driven insanely till you've hit a
> Boston traffic circle.
> 

With all due respect - you have not seen insane until you've stepped on the
streets of Naples, Italy. Parking lights are the rule at night, you are rude if
you use headlights with oncoming traffic.  Traffic lights are advisory, not
mandatory.  I never did figure out the rules for right of way, I think it has
something to do with speed, value of car, size of bumper, and throw weight of
your cojones (or the female hormone equivalant).

Fortunately, they seem to have some fairly bloodthirsty laws regarding
pedestrians, you could always tell who was a tourist - they looked before
stepping out into the streets.

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:38:06 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Disaster Stories

We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but nothing
damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does stories
about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural disaster.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:55 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>Postulate whatever tech you like, but if you want to use any kind of solar
>cells, then you cannot get more power out of them than there is solar power
>to retrieve.
>
>In an empty hex, there is very little sunlight.  Even if we captured every
>possible erg of energy, we cannot get more power than the surrounding stars
>radiate.  Leonard figured out 25 nanowatts, and I am willing to believe the
>number since he rarely screws up data like that, but if you do not, it is
>not that hard to discover the total energy radiated by the sun, and then
>work out what it would look like from a parsec away.
>
>If there are only 25 nanowatts out there, then no matter what you make your
>solar cells from, you cannot get more than that out.  For more than that,
>you need to either bring your own power, or postulate a magic energy
>machine which produces power from nothing.  Sheffield has made such a
>machine the basis of a number of stores, but it leads to very different
>results from Traveller.
>
>Scott
>
I'll bow to Leonard and your explanations and I DO UNDERSTAND what your
saying about not able to harvest what don't exist.  Maybe I hand waved to
the unknowing but the heart was in the right place.  Having admitted my lack
of caring whether or not there were enough erg's to save up lets move into
my original direction.  I didn't want to leave my PC's stranded in total
desolation with nothing to look forward to but death.  How would we get out
of this predicament if we found ourselves in it.  I felt that the simplest
solution would be to find a quick and dirty answer to keep the game moving.
Since everyone insists this isn't possible, can I do something with the
normal trappings of a starship.  Would un-rolling a thin metal cable to drag
behind the ship about three kilometers long, produce enough electricity to
charge the batteries.  Can _small_  fusion power plants run (intermittently)
off of the maneuver fuel for a couple of years to charge the batteries?
Would sails (ala generation ships) produce power?  Help me here please.
There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:12:23 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Cold Sleep Investments

At GDW, we had the following Joke:

Med Tech: Congratulations! You have sucessfully awakened after 300 years in
cold sleep!

Sleeper: How did my investments do?

Med Tech: Your assets are now worth $40,000,000,000.

Sleeper: Really? 

Med Tech: Yes. And, by the way, you owe us $238,000,000,000,000.97 in storage
fees.

**********

> Keven saith:
> Kinda like bringing an Ingram to a kung fu match...

Darn! Does that mean I have to give the trophy back?

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:05:37 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: RE: older Traveller products

So you know,

I lived in Pusan, South Korea for a year and if you think Las Vegas is bad,
it can't touch Pusan.  The last time I checked, Pusan was THE most dangerous
place to drive.  They have signs all over the city,  big ones that cross
over the entire road., saying how many accidents there were that day,  how
many people were injured, and how many people died.  Looking over my
journal, the lowest record was 35 accidents, 45 people injured, 0 people
dead.  The highest was 762 accidents, 1248 people injured, 235 people dead.
In one day!  Granted, it did snow that day-a rare occurrence.  To get a
better  idea of how bad it was, the company truck I drove to and from work
had mirrors that would rotate into the body so they wouldn't break off.  I
would get to work and rotate the mirrors back to their original position.  I
would come home from work and fix the mirrors again.  It did get a little
old after a while.  One thing that still scares me is that people also would
drive on the sidewalk to pass.  And that there was street lights, but they
were only for the tourists.

Vale,
David

- -----Original Message-----
Las Vegas has got you all beat. The worst drivers from Canada, LA, NY, and
Chicago among others all migrate here. Las Vegas is now worse than South
Florida (Oh yeah; have I told you about the old retirees in their damn blue
plates (the old plates) driving 10-15 mph slower than the posted speed limit
in the left lane, while the LA gangbangers in their lowriders cut you off
swerving around them?). We have the highest insurance rates in the country
to
prove it. Of course I always thought that Las Vegas should be rated by TAS
as
at least an amber zone....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 17:25:13 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Disaster Stories

ICE put out an adventure module for SpaceMaster called "Disaster on Adanis,"
in which the PC's are sent to a world to help it recover from the world-wide
disasters that occurred after a large, previously undetected meteor
"mysteriously" crashes into the surface.  Lots of fun, and I think a lot of
it could be converted to Traveller.  My favorite episode was the rescue of
the survivors of an off-shore aqua-farm.

Brian

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of Rupert
>Boleyn
>Sent: Monday, April 20, 1998 4:38 PM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Disaster Stories
>
>
>We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but nothing
>damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does stories
>about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural disaster.
>
>--
>IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--
>
>"If in doubt - wipe it out."
>
>Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Palmerston North, New Zealand
>Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:27:35 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Jumpspace

At 08:04 am 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Since the integration was rather complicated, I instead generated a large field of
>point sources and summed the results.  This gave me a general idea of what the
>gravitational acceleration looks like... it wasn't uniform with respect to h.


	Then your "general idea" is completely wrong. Sorry, but either do
the integration, review the integration that was already done for you
in a previous post, pick up a college physics textbook, or accept
what the professionals on this list are trying to tell you. For an
infinite plate, the gravitational attraction does NOT depend on the
distance from the plate. Period. Dot. Physics and mathematics don't
give a flying leap what your spreadsheet tells you--if you have an
approximation and an exact solution, and the approximation gives
results 180 degrees away from what the exact solution says, the
approximation isn't valid.

	This will be my last post on this subject, as I can beat my head
against brick walls at work just as well, and at least be doing my
job.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 19:26:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On 04/20/98 at 06:48 PM,  trisen@postmaster.co.uk said:

>I was thinking about something similar ... what about a dead star (red
>dwarf star that faded out) capturing some loose  snow  balls and forming a
>dark matter system.  Unfortunatly, this would still have been detected by
>interstellar densitometer  scan.  So  there couldn't be a dark system
>within the Imperium ... not unless some scout working on the IGS got
>sloppy ;-).

Interesting point.  What is the range of a densitometer?  Interstellar? 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 19:31:53 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

On 04/20/98 at 03:08 PM,  Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> said:

>You've just described the making of a wormhole.

Yes, he has, and although the details differ it is pretty close to the
description I posted for how jumpdrive works in MTU a few weeks ago. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 20:41:59 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Recommended Books

It's not Traveller, but I heartily recommend "The Reality Dysfunction" by
Peter F. Hamilton.  A cracking great story in a richly detailed setting,
epic scale yet real characters. I liked it so much that I bought the
hardcover! 

I've just started "Mindstar Rising", also by Hamilton. So far it seems to
be the same high quality.


ObTrav: Tenuous, but both can be mined for ideas on adventuing in a
high-tech environment. And if any of the gearheads do an FFS supplement
for bitek, I'll buy it :-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 19:40:07 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On 04/20/98 at 03:18 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:

>>Trisen wrote
>>No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>>more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>>meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>>efficiency).

>Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.  Who's to say
>what they will be made from 5000 years from now.  

If what Trisen, and Leonard, were refering to was technology I'd agree with
you, but I think they are refering to the photon density at those ranges.
No matter how good the technology is it is going to be *very* hard to get
more energy out of a photovoltic cell than 100% of the energy actually
hitting the cell. ;->

Why don't you postulate some way of pulling energy from the vacuum? Some
theories predict terajoules of energy lurk in every cc of space...pulling
*any* of it out is probably a *looooog* shot, but a cosmic energy source is
interesting to think about.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 18:56:06 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Standardized Turrets for GURPS Traveller

At 10:22 AM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Christopher Thrash writes:
>> The following is designed using GURPS Vehicles, 2d Ed (VE2), to be a
>> plug-in for ships in GURPS Traveller.  It uses 1 dton = 500 cf.
>
>Due to the differing ways in which FF&S and GURPS Vehicles handle volumes for
>turrets, this is not clearly correct (1 dT of turret volume is probably only
>250 cf -- turrets in FF&S aren't separate subassemblies, they just cause
>objects within them to take up extra space).  Given that Vehicles does not
give
>armor or frame materials volume, in general calling 1 dT 500 cf is probably
>incorrect.

The volume of 1 dton is only relevant to the size of the modular socket: 3
dtons in the last two versions of Traveller.  The configuration of the
turret beyond this point conforms to VE2, as the various versions of
Traveller do not agree on the specifics.

>> Modular Laser Turret (TL 8)
>> 
>>   Subassemblies and Body Features:  One pop turret (full rotation).
>>   Weaponry:  One 135 Mj extreme range UV laser (TuF, HP 500, power 
>> 67,500 kW derated to 450 kW).
>>   Weapon Accessories:  Universal mount for laser and AESA (Tu, HP 400).

>Add full stabilization.

Stabilization is irrelevant to GURPS space combat (VE2, p. 177 sidebar).

>>   Instruments and Electronics:  AESA radar with 1,000 mile range (Tu,
>> HP 100, 250 kW, Scan 29).  Advanced radar/laser detectors (HP 8) with
>> dedicated, hardened minicomputer running Transmission Profiling and a 
>> 1 Gb ship recognition database.

>There is no evidence for Traveller turrets containing any of these things.
>Also, having multiple AESAs sending out signals will just confuse matters.
 Any
>TL 8+ radar can track multiple objects simultaneously, just assume that the
>main sensor suite on the starship is feeding targeting data to the lasers.

This is an attempt to model the (much-debated) "beam pointer" from TNE in a
fashion that makes sense under VE2.  Although one could just as easily
assume that the ship to which the turret must be attached will provide the
sensors necessary, I intended it to be as self-contained as possible.  It
is not clear that a standard ship design without weapons (but with sockets)
would include the expense of sensors with the necessary range.

>  Miscellaneous:  Emergency Medikit. Portable Electronics Toolkit.
>> Enviro-bubble.
>>   Crew station:  normal. One dedicated, compact, hardened microframe,
>> running Gunner, Targetting, and Datalink. One terminal. HUDWAC with
>> pupil scanner.

>It is not clear if the crewstations for a traveller turret are within the
>turret, this seems fairly unlikely (not to mention stupid).  The crewstation
>should be within the vehicle itself.

TNE, p. 348:
"Each [turret or barbette] weapon includes a fire control workstation for a
gunner and may either be fired from the turret/barbette workstation or
patched into a master fire director (if the ship has such a device." 

The illustration of a "Laser Socket" on p. 349 also clearly shows the
"Gunner's Station".

The point is again modularity - one doesn't have to install a gunner's
station on a ship that doesn't have (yet) have weapons.  On warships, the
station still serves as a backup if the central fire control system goes
off-line.

>   Occupancy:  Short.  Crew: Gunner.  Environmental Systems:  connected
>> to ship for full life support.  TL 8 limited life support, one man-day
>> (HP 13, 0.5 kW, powered by energy bank).
>>   Power Plant:  connected to ship for 701 kW.  
>>   Energy Bank:  One E-size rechargeable power slug (180,000 kWs, HP 6).

>Actually, even power slugs are a bit excessive in traveller terms.
However, a
>typical laser turret requires a power plant/1, which at the density of
Vehicles
>TL10 fusion power plants (assuming access space for a long-occupancy vehicle)
>is about 40 MW (it is about 250 MW in T4),
>

The specifics of the GURPS space combat system dictate a rate of fire of
only one shot (possibly of multiple pulses) per 10-minute combat turn, so
higher power levels are not necessary.  A GURPS power slug is a reasonably
good model (and one that has been discussed before on GURPSnet) for the
energy storage density of a TNE laser rifle's backpack HPG.  I intended to
avoid lengthy debates on the relative differences between energy storage
technologies in GURPS and the various Travellers.

>

If there was any more to your post, I'm afraid it never arrived.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:13:38 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>On 04/20/98 at 03:18 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:
>
>>>Trisen wrote
>>>No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>>>more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>>>meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>>>efficiency).
>
>>Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.  Who's to say
>>what they will be made from 5000 years from now.
>
>If what Trisen, and Leonard, were refering to was technology I'd agree with
>you, but I think they are refering to the photon density at those ranges.
>No matter how good the technology is it is going to be *very* hard to get
>more energy out of a photovoltic cell than 100% of the energy actually
>hitting the cell. ;->
>

Yes I agree and stated that in another post.  I'm looking for something
else.
>
>Why don't you postulate some way of pulling energy from the vacuum? Some
>theories predict terajoules of energy lurk in every cc of space...pulling
>*any* of it out is probably a *looooog* shot, but a cosmic energy source is
>interesting to think about.
>
>Eris
>
This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for.  More ideas about how to do
something.  How would one go about something like this?
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:42:30 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>>Assuming zuchai crystals make up 100% of the drive, they can store a  
>>TRILLION Mj per kL
>
>This is why many people (like me) favour the "jump ballast" fuel-isn't-used-
for
>energy model...

   The Original Fire, Fusion, and Steel said that the "jump fuel" was used
partially as coolant, partially as fuel (presumably for a reactor of some
kind), and partially as displacement mass.  What's wrong w/ everyone getting a
lil piece of their J-Drive theory affirmed? : )
   Besides, we know that HPGs are only 35% of the jump drive.  The zuchai
crystals (the heat sink array) are the same thing. Anyone w/ the SoM can see
that the zuchai crystals are not the whole thing.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:46:19 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

Regarding death by "Grav pong" to boarders, Derek Stanley wrote this once upon
a time... 

>GRAV-BELT...
>
>The floor ceiling grav ratio is likely to be only 2 g's maybe 3 g's
>max.  If you eliminate 99% of gravity with a grav belt your floor to
>ceiling fall ratio would be 0.27m/s^2, nothing you couldn't play cat
>with and flip over for, or handle on your own pretty easily.
>Considering it would take about 5 seconds to hit a 3 meter high roof
>(I'm not going to to the math).
>
>Now back to front on a TL15 ship would allow for a maximum of 6G's
>compensation.  This would give you a fall rate of 0.54m/s^2 assuming you
>were utilizing the grav-belt.
>
>Considering that a 100 kilo person in a grav belt counter acting 6G's of
>gravity would only weigh 6 kilo's I think we could pretty much hang on
>forever...
>
>Thoughts?
>
>DS

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:16:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: . . . the water was FREEZING

> From: Brian Mays <bmays@genscope.com>
>
> . . . but Brian tenuously dips his toe back into the pool . . .
> 
> After the cries of PIRATES AHOY! and the lengthy thread that my last
> mercantile offer spawned, I will ask this:  is it ok to sell/auction
> Traveller items on this list, or is that better left to the
> rec.rpg.merchandise (or whatever it's called) newsgroup?  I haven't belonged
> to this list for long enough to know if such things are considered gauche.

It's a tough call.  Some people don't like anyone using the TML to sell
stuff, others have no problems with it.  I don't have a problem with it,
but I can see how others could find it annoying.

My own opinion? If you're just selling stuff straight, post a message with
the stuff you're selling, and do the rest by personal e-mail. If you're
auctioning, I would say post the announcement and then the final bids a
little bit later and that's it.  If it's overly long, and you're selling
huge heaping gobs of stuff, then announce it and set up a simple web page,
or post to the rpg marketplace newsgroup.

This is probably one of the better places to pawn off old Traveller stuff,
for obvious reasons. Just don't annoy people with too many posts.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 19:54:31 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

On 04/21/98 at 11:38 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but
>nothing damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does
>stories about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural
>disaster.

Rubert, speaking of disasters, what's this I heard about some large NZ city
being without electricity for several weeks?  Which one is it, and what
happened?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #417
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 418



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Recommended Books
Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #416
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Misjumps
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
oor clouds
surviving misjumps
Re: suggested reading
Re: older Traveller products
loud noises and crime
Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)
Canon vs. thud-gun
Killing warships
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Adventures during wartime.
re: older Traveller products
Re: Misjump Mathematics
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 20:05:17 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On 04/20/98 at 07:46 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:

>Having admitted my lack of caring whether or not there were enough erg's to save >up lets move into my original direction.  I didn't want to leave my PC's >stranded in total desolation with nothing to look forward to but death.  

Well, if you don't want to have it be possible to find a snowball, then you
*do* have a couple of possibilities.

1. If lowberths are *cold* sleep, then once the corpusicles have chilled,
it should be possible to lower the temperature down to nearly 3k..seeing as
you are in deep space..and maintain it with only occasional checks and
tweaks from the program running the lowberth.  With an RTG built into each
berth you could drift for centuries...if you want to say you can. 

2. Don't allow jumps to *dead* space, even misjumps. Just say you can only
jump to the vicinity of a gravity source. Jumps into "empty" hexes are
really within a few AU of a rouge black or brown dwarf, or buned out
cinder. Does this mean you could build refueling stations in "empty"
hexes...yes, and that does affect the game. Then again, some "empty" hexes
*are* empty and no ship can jump into that hex, period.

Just a couple of ideas.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:05:29 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Recommended Books

Rob Prior wrote:

> It's not Traveller, but I heartily recommend "The Reality Dysfunction" by
> Peter F. Hamilton.  A cracking great story in a richly detailed setting,
> epic scale yet real characters. I liked it so much that I bought the
> hardcover!

I read these last summer and discussed them on the list a little bit.  I very
much liked them.  Very useful for a Traveller Campaign.  The sequels are
supposed to comeout this month.

> I've just started "Mindstar Rising", also by Hamilton. So far it seems to
> be the same high quality.

This one I didn't like so much.

> ObTrav: Tenuous, but both can be mined for ideas on adventuing in a
> high-tech environment. And if any of the gearheads do an FFS supplement
> for bitek, I'll buy it :-)

That bitek, polyp stuff definitely bears investigation.  I also like the
ancient hulk of a space city, whatever it was called.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:27:01 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

I finally finished adapting High Guard Chargen rules for T4 (T4.1).
This is the prototype for my effort to do this with every career, so
criticism and comments are welcome.  If it seems to work alright, it
shouldn't take long to post the rest.  (And, yes, I did come up with a
way to do advanced year-by-year chargen for the non-military careers.)

Please take a look at

http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/highgard.htm

[Note:  some references may be obscure to those without T4.1 beta stuff,

but it should be reasonably clear.]

Although much of it is taken directly from High Guard, I've made some
compromises and changes.

For simplicity's sake, as well as consistency, I've collapsed the number

of branches to five, combining Battle and Strike.  Assignments are
likewise limited to 6 in number.  This 5 branches, 6 assignment setup is
consistent thoughout all of the careers.

And I've added an Intelligence branch.  It has a strong emphasis on
Military Intelligence, as opposed to James Bond (Its more M.I.5 than
M.I.6.), but that option is available.

I've combined Technical Services and Engineering Branches.  While I
understand the distinction between them, since T4 created the Technical
Cluster, I see little reason to have distinct chargen purposes.  Also,
the T4.1 beta material envisions some cross-over application of
Engineering and Technical skills.

I've eliminated the roll to see if a skill is obtained.  CT was quite
stingy in giving out skills.  Mercenary and High Guard were much more
generous, especially in the Special Duty Schools.  I believe Marc has
stated that characters should average 1.25 skills per year in Chargen.
Certainly this is true in T4 and T4.1.

Thanks,
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:14:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #416

>Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:02:03 +0100
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Grav Plates
>
>
>But good news for the free trader crew trying to resist boarding, and
>wondering if they can use the deck plates... the intruders might have
>better guns but the crew have Canon on their side (!)
>
>MJD.

It isnt quite as good news for Free Trader crews, because if the Free
Trader is built for low cost, it isnt likely to have many more than 2Gs of
grav compensation (more probably one gee worth).

It's the military boys who get the really serious grav plates ...


Ian Whitchurch

PS Good point by someone about using em for security inside gravity wells.
I suspect they will also be used for entertainment ... zero g beds, for
example.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:31:40 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

At 07:54 PM 20/04/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 04/21/98 at 11:38 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:
>
>>We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but
>>nothing damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does
>>stories about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural
>>disaster.
>
>Rubert, speaking of disasters, what's this I heard about some large NZ city
>being without electricity for several weeks?  Which one is it, and what
>happened?

Over the late summer Auckland (our biggest city) was without power in it's
Central Buisiness District for a number of weeks. All four (I think) of the
main power cables died in the unusually hot whether we had, and it took out
six weeks to rig an emergency replacement. The CBD was basically closed by
this.

There has been a lot of fuss over this, as the electricity suppliers were
privatised a few years ago, and many people have blamed greed and poor
maintenence practices for the blackout. Apparntly the lines were old and
should've been replaced, but the company, Mercury Energy, was gambling they
would hold out until other improvements and developments come online in the
next few years. Having lost that gamble they are currently trying to avoid
paying compensation to the various buisinesses that were damaged or went
under as a result of the CBD closing.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:32:34
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Misjumps

>
>Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:46:55 -0400
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>How would we get out
>of this predicament if we found ourselves in it.  I felt that the simplest
>solution would be to find a quick and dirty answer to keep the game moving.
>Since everyone insists this isn't possible, can I do something with the
>normal trappings of a starship.  Would un-rolling a thin metal cable to drag
>behind the ship about three kilometers long, produce enough electricity to
>charge the batteries.  Can _small_  fusion power plants run (intermittently)
>off of the maneuver fuel for a couple of years to charge the batteries?
>Would sails (ala generation ships) produce power?  Help me here please.
>There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
>several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
>Thom

Preperation is the most obvious solution.

Let us assume that misjumps are fairly frequent, and they tend to strand
you in deep space.

First solution is misjump insurance. It's a risk, it's quantifiable, so you
can pay someone else to take it.

Let us assume our friends at Lloyd's (a coffee shop frequented by scouts,
merchant bankers and other such lowlifes) get the report of a ship that
didnt report in to where it should. This means one of the merchant bankers
is about to give someone a *lot* of money, unless he can find the ship.

Now, our banker friend turns to his scout friends and says "Ship x went
missing jumping from Y. There is cold million in cash to whoever finds them".

Now the sneaky bit ... merchant baker writes out the cheque to the ships
owners. Over the next three or so years, his scout friends do what they do
well.

Then they stop partying and hunting ardalopes, and the search goes out for
the lost ship, in all the empty hexes that the ship could be in.

Lets rewind three years ... ship crew realises they have misjumped and
turns off the fusion plant, and turns on the crude, effective, reliable TL8
1 MW fission plant. It has fuel for 20 years (2m3 worth), but is 10m3 size.

The crew of 8 bail into 2 emergency low berths (56m3), and turn on the 1000
AU radio transmitter.

Now, the fission plant keeps running for the next 20 years, transmitting a
radio signal (how powerful is 200 kilowatts, anyway ?).

Scout ship jumps into the empty hex 3 years later, and picks up the signal,
then goes home and comes back with a tanker.

Now, the new owner of the ship (the merchant banker) then finds someone to
sell it to ...

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 98 22:40:12 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On 04/20/98 at 09:13 PM,  "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> said:

>>Why don't you postulate some way of pulling energy from the vacuum? Some
>>theories predict terajoules of energy lurk in every cc of space...pulling
>>*any* of it out is probably a *looooog* shot, but a cosmic energy source is
>>interesting to think about.

>This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for.  More ideas about how to do
>something.  How would one go about something like this?

If I knew how to do this...;-> 

No, I really don't have a good idea on this one.  Some people theorise that
the effects seen in cold fusion experiments are somehow extractions of a
little of this zero-point energy.  Most people don't acknowledge that cold
fusion experiments have *any* positive results, but that's beside the
point.

I'd *love* to see a handwave for this from somebody.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:05:40 -0400
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

I would think it would be possible using the drop tank rules to construct a
"jump station" basically a ship would manuveur to a fuel port on a dispersed
structure charge up the jump engines and then manuveur away to make jump.

The jump station can be located in the trojan points of a planet in order to
clear the 100 diameter limit.  Jump station can be arranged in networks
throughout charted space to facilate commerical transport. There would be
three main classes of ships, the first would be the jump ships jumping from
station to station, the second would be the interface ships going from the
station to the mainworld, and the last would be the fuel ships that would
keep the jump station supplied with fuel.

Rob Conley

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:34:22 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
>

[concerning "cosmic power"]

> >This is the kind of stuff I'm looking for.  More ideas about how to do
> >something.  How would one go about something like this?
> 
> If I knew how to do this...;-> 
> 
> No, I really don't have a good idea on this one.  Some people theorise
that
> the effects seen in cold fusion experiments are somehow extractions of a
> little of this zero-point energy.  Most people don't acknowledge that
cold
> fusion experiments have *any* positive results, but that's beside the
> point.
> 
> I'd *love* to see a handwave for this from somebody.

I'll give you a handwave after I ingest huge quantities of the
hallucinogenic strain of 'drug drug' and read through the collected works
of Jack Kirby, specifically the stuff that _he_ actually wrote in the late
60s and early 70s.







(For those of you who don't get this joke. The late, great Jack Kirby is
one of the most beloved comic book artists of all time. He created a number
of unique characters, and illustrated many more. He's famous for his blocky
high contrast work, specifically on stuff like the Silver Surfer. At any
rate, when he was allowed to write stuff, look out. His words, as
nonsensical as they seem to be, have an amazing and wonderful poetry to
them. "Cosmic power" was one of his favorite subjects, with technogods
drawing on it to fight each other)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:33:47 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: oor clouds

>> with periods of several million years => Oort cloud at least 40000 AU out.
>Whoa!  That's 2/3 a light year or 1/3 a parsec.
A fifth of a parsec, actually. (1 pc = 206264.8 AU).

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:35:07 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: surviving misjumps

>There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
>several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
See my previous messages. Run the fusion plant on low (it'll last for
decades or centuries at TNE/T4 fuel consumption levels.) Use a 
weapons or comm laser to signal for help to nearest system. Wait for
help to arrive and hope it's the ISS, not local pirates.

Or, if you're an exceptionally kind GM, or wedded to CT/MT fuel
consumption, let them find a "snowball" before their fuel goes out. For
added nastiness, make it a pirate or smuggler base.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:38:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: suggested reading

>It's not Traveller, but I heartily recommend "The Reality Dysfunction" by
>Peter F. Hamilton.
>ObTrav: Tenuous, but both can be mined for ideas on adventuing in a
>high-tech environment. And if any of the gearheads do an FFS supplement
>for bitek, I'll buy it :-)
It actually seemed like a fairly travelleresque milleu - loose 
interstellar government, shady independent traders/smugglers/mercs making a
living with their small ships in the shadows of the big navies and
corporations, etc. More like CT before HG in that small trader ships
could be combat-significant...Of course, there's more sex and magic
than most Traveller campaigns have.

The descriptions of ships hiding from each other were a influence on my
Definitive Sensor Rules.

And I've been thinking about FFS2 rules for the Voidhawks (biological
starships...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:03:54 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> pounds out:
>>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
>> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
>> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
>> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
>> rules while your at it.  
>This describes Massachusetts quite well. Except they don't shoot at each
>other, and when you drive aggressively, they seem to back off as if
>you're doing the right thing.  Craziness!  :)

      Ok, so imagine that the place has been invaded by a larger TL5-6
world class power.  Landing craft at Revere Beach and all that.  The local
drivers are the first line of defense!

     Don't forget the joy of New England rotaries! ("Don't make eye
contact, that means you are yielding").  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:13:50 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: loud noises and crime

D Barry types:
>Since I have yo loive here, I think I'll let the cops do what they can to
>get the teenagers with guns off the streets.  Until I moved into dispatch,
>I had to drive into some very scary areas in the very early morning hours
>to male pick-ups.

    My brother used to drive a PG&E truck in SF.  As he put it, "Even scum
get power."
I'm spending this week in Johannesburg, South Africa.  Even in the nice
sections of Sandton and the northern edge of Joberg proper I've been seeing
(when I'm not spending most of my time in a basement computer lab, located
in a climate controlled building), I see gated communities, a lot a razor
wire, and a lot of private security guards.  Hmmm...I saw the same thing in
LA too...

   Ob-Trav:  When those pesky PC's make the wrong turn in their rented
ground car, it can really become "an adventure!"


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 19:19:46 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

The last issue of Wired magazine I saw had a *great* article on wearable
computers.  Some of this stuff is not just 'wired up in lab gear', but is
actual commercial product!  There are even industrial appilacations of
stuff being used today!  Techs at Boeing, equiped with a belt systems, and
clear monocle viewer, can overlay a wiring diagram from displayed on his
monocle over the actual system wiring while troubleshooting!
   Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.  In a package smaller
than your old daytimer, you can, right now, today, have a 3Com PalmPilot
and a cell modem hooked up.  That's real time email and web browsing while
walking in the park!

"Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com> types out:
>> Eric Freitas posted:
>>The goal by many companies is the "System on a Chip".
>>This is a very big thing right now and will probably 
>>be available within 1 to 2 years in consumer appliances.
><snip>
>>Can you say, wristwatch computer?  With full color video
>>and even audio?  Wireless connections to external 
>>keyboards, full screen displays, and audio amps?
>>Quite an interesting time ahead in the computer industry.
>Not just the computer industry. How about space
>exploration, health care, world-wide communications,
>the entertainment industry? Think of any field or
>application that uses or can use a transistor.
>I could go on and on.
>
>
>ObTrav: Want to know how a world moves from one TL to
>another? Read/watch today's technology/science news.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:23:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Canon vs. thud-gun

>Subject: Grav Plates
>
...
>But good news for the free trader crew trying to resist boarding, and
>wondering if they can use the deck plates... the intruders might have
>better guns but the crew have Canon on their side (!)

  Or, combat armour and a GL with HEAP grenades w/o frag casings. One
section of plate = one grenade. High energy weapons work better.

  Of course, given the potential for organized resistance to prepare
a death trap with emplaced or prepped weapons, I'd simply blast the
hulk to hell and then board the _wreckage_.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:23:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Killing warships

>Since Traveller starships will tend not to explode but just get mission-killed
>(like a wooden sailing ship tends not to sink but just get crippled) this
>behaviour will probably be fairly common in Traveller universes...or at least
>IMTU. 

  Obviously the cultural factor will be predominant, but another possibility
is that warship crews will be expected to continue to operate to the ships
limits until they abandon/scuttle or catastrophically disassemble. While a
ship unable to repair offensive ability might be restricted to using PD fire
near it (or doing rescue work) only a ship unable to fight but able to flee
would escape without drawing too much fire.

  It might be that maneuver damage would be the most lethal (particularly
if fighting while effectively unable to Jump); using realistic targetting
solutions such a ship is wearing a "kick me" sign of astronomic proportions,
and if using vector map displays an immobilized ship would be easy to cut
out, isolate, and destroy in detail.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:24:58 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

>> The Egyptians also used water cannon's to knock  down 
the sand barricades put up by the Israeli's in the 72' war 
(IIRC) along  the banks of the Suez canal.  They went 
through them in hours when the  defenders had postulated it 
would take a 3 - 6 days to dig through them. <<

Oh yeah, I remember that! A stormin' use of Combat 
Engineering skill and good thinking. 

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from your friend's      |
| forehead.                                                    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 02:24:56 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

>> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier  
war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be  
involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.  
Does anyone have any idea for things that a small  group of 
reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)  might be 
reasonably expected to do?   <<

I and my group have "passed through" this period in history 
several times (we start games in 1106-8 and work up) and 
have varied from hide till it's over to drafting everyone - 
and their ship - and fitting them into planetary invasions 
suitable to their capabilites. The chance to kick some 
serious rear end. 

Generally, come up with a reason to form your PCs plus 
optional others into a "special forces" type unit, make 
them feel special, and use them for specific jobs rather 
than cannon fodder infantry. Of course, if you're a cruel 
GM, you can reverse all this and put them in a soft skinned 
vehicle with TAC missiles flying around. Heh heh.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| Statistics are often used as a drunk uses a lamp-post; for   |
| support rather than illumination.                            |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:30:16 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: re: older Traveller products

Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com> wrote


> >I'm going to avoid Boston if at all possible, the streets are insane 
> > and so are the drivers...:)

>      Oh come on!  That's half the fun!  The real pain is the parking. 

>    Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
> Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
> (don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
> drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
> rules while your at it.  

Make sure that your TL 6 planet used to be a TL 3 planet so you can be
sure their roads are laid out over old cow paths.

I should note that I have not had any problems driving in Boston as long
as I do so between 2:30 AM and 6 AM, maybe you could try an early
morning commando raid on the designated shops.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:39:57 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump Mathematics

"Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote

> >They must have *really* changed the mis-jump rules. In the Traveller
> >Book, these are the rules:
> >Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> 
> 
> Actually Leonard you are quoting the portion of the actual write-up in the
> MT version that deals with misjumps. I will repost portions of a post by
> Peter Newman so every one can read it.

Actually I just sent this post in for Wil Hostman, a TMLer who can't
post.  I don't want to take credit for his post although I would have
made a similar post if he had not done so.


> *        Safe Jump: A ship at least 100 diameters out, using the proper
> *         fuel, and with properly maintained drives can make a safe jump
> *         with _no chance of mishap_.[emphasis mine(Wil's)]

I prefer the MT and TNe misjup systems because they make most jumps
safe.  I believe most jumps _need_ to be safe for us to get the levels
of interstellar travel we see.  When starships cost tens of millions of
credits they need to be pretty reliable for tvravel to be economically
justifiable.

If you want to arrange amisjump just have them chased by faster hostile
forces that outgun the players about ten to one & who are not likely to
accept surrender.  Most sensible players will engage the jump drive no
matter how far out they are - after all they have a better chance of
surviving it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 23:51:41 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote

>  Peter Newman wrote:

> > Note that given the high numbers of people you need to get the fuel
> > this is slightly impractical on most ships.  It may work better in a
> > Hard Times era MT campaign.  If your ship is stranded in a system
> > without any jump fuel you can blow the colony domes on any low tech
> > Failing or Doomed world & collect the dead bodies after they all die 
> > of air loss.  Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide 
> > sufficient fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of 
> > time to process this much fuel.
> 
> WOW shades of "V"
> 
> ...whatta sicko idea for a vampire ship. heh heh heh.

Well actually I think that this idea is far more horrifying if _people_
are commiting genocide for jump fuel than if Virus is doing it.  The
really scarry part about it is that this might be the done by people who
were not monsters if, for example, they had vital parts necessary for
repairing the reactor on their home planet, a failing world with
millions of people on it.  Do you kill thousands you do not know or let
millions, including everyone you love, die ?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 00:03:03 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> >  Peter Newman wrote:

> > > If your ship is stranded in a system without any jump fuel
> > >   you can blow the colony domes on any low tech Failing or Doomed
> > >  world & collect the dead bodies after they all die of air loss.
> > >   Most planets with populations of 5+ should provide sufficient
> > > fuel for most small ships, it will however take a bit of time to 
> > > process this much fuel.

> > ...whatta sicko idea for a vampire ship. heh heh heh.

> Err...  Umm... How exactly does this planet support 5+ population with 
> NO water?

I don't know but it is Traveller canon that they do.  In world
generation for some major alien races you are instructed that if the
world is vaccum and the TL is 7 or less that you should change the
population to 0 and the starport to E.  You do not have to do this in
the Imperium, obviously due to the superiority of human beings who
apparently do not require water to live on in the 57th century. <ducks
rapidly>

In Hard Times planets with low tech levels and bad biosperes are
destined to end up unpopulated.  The logical inferance is that these
planets could support themselves without a local biospere as long as
their tech level was high enough & interstellar trade & commerce was
common.  In Hard Times neither of those conditions may be true anymore.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #418
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 419



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TNS Archive
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Cold Sleep Investments
RE: Disaster Stories
RE: older Traveller products
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: . . . the water was FREEZING
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Grav Plates
Nuclear devices and the EMP effect
Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)
New FFS2 Spreadsheet Version
The little code thingy
Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)
Re: Grav Plates
Re: older Traveller products

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:39:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: TNS Archive

On Fri, 3 Apr 1998, Brian Mays wrote:

> I have all but two of the Challenge magazines, and almost all of the JTS's.
> Which are you looking for?

This one took me some time, but here it is.
First, thank you for giving your help. To complete my TNS Helpfile i need
the articles from Challenge 63, 65, 67, as all other I've got via internet
or own CHellenge issues. Also helpful would be a list of which article was
published in which issue of JTAS and Challenge, so I can update the index
of the articles. I'll include also TNS articles from adventures published
in those magazines, but with the addition that it comes from one. (So even
a 990's article came with this ...)

I wonder what's the best way to get those articles. Plain ASCII would help
much, as I only have to transfer it into the .rtf file which contains the
other ones. Hardcopys would also go, it only will take some time for me
to type them in or make an OCR and proofreading.

I also thought about collecting the CInet news form the New Era, but there
are more missing issues, so this will have to wait.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:53:27 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
> war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
> involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
> Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
> group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
> might be reasonably expected to do?  

Espionage?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:03:17 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 03:26 PM 4/16/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
> >war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
> >involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
> >Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
> >group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
> >might be reasonably expected to do?  
> 
> Rather than having them actually involved in the war's prosecution, have
> them get caught up in it.  Hauling refugees, being caught on the ground
> when the Zhodani invade, even running the resistance on an occupied world.

I remember a JTAS Amber Zone, 'Thought Waves' in which the PCs have to
fetch some scientists out of Zhodani occupied space. They got a problem by
themselves, as the Zhos are tortured by occasional brainache no one has an
explanation for. The unconcealment of this reasons for getting the
scientists out fits into the 5th frontier war scenario it was designed
for.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:12:13 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

On Fri, 17 Apr 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Volker A. Greimann <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
> > 
> > -> be assigned to some sort of MASH unit, where you can really hammer
> home the
> > -> horrors of war if you so desire. 
> > For a bit of color there, add a few well fleshedout NPC's. Call them 
> > Hot lips, Hawkeye, Klinger, Radar, etc. ;-)

Not to miss Trapper John McIntyre and B.J. Hunnicutt.
 
> Geez, and here I was thinking nobody else ever heard of M*A*S*H :^)

How do you run into this error?
German TV shows M.A.S.H. reruns for by now seven (?) years without break.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:47:51 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Cold Sleep Investments

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, GDW GAMES wrote:

> At GDW, we had the following Joke:
[snip]

:-]

Send me more of this. If you allow, I'll post them to the Humour pages of
my websites. Someone had to collect all the jokes from this Mailing List.
May I? 

I'm sorry, I lost the older ones ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:52:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: RE: Disaster Stories

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Brian Mays wrote:

> ICE put out an adventure module for SpaceMaster called "Disaster on Adanis,"
> in which the PC's are sent to a world to help it recover from the world-wide
> disasters that occurred after a large, previously undetected meteor
> "mysteriously" crashes into the surface.  Lots of fun, and I think a lot of
> it could be converted to Traveller.  My favorite episode was the rescue of
> the survivors of an off-shore aqua-farm.

I played with the idea of using the 'Critical Vector' JTAS szenario and
let a fragment crash down off-shore some kilometers from a drilling
station - where the PCs fetch the last inhabitants.
Anyone seen 'Abyss - The Director's Cut'?

There seem to be many people with the same ideas ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:57:43 -0400
From: Chris Jones <Cjones@manhattanassociates.com>
Subject: RE: older Traveller products

   Korea certainly has the worst traffic I've ever seen.  I lived there
for a few months in '94.  Last year I went to Malaysia, which also has
miserable traffic.  I can't decide which is worse: Malaysia, where
people have a total disregard for stop signs, or Korea, where there are
no stop signs.  ( Just blow your horn before going through the
intersection and hope the other guy stops.)
   On the other hand, when people would pull traffic stunts that would
receive rude gestures or dirty looks in the US, the Koreans would just
smile and wave to each other.

   Chris Jones
   Manhattan Associates, LLC
   770-955-5533 ~1477
   cjones@manhattanassociates.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David [SMTP:Bushta@Prodigy.Net]
> Sent:	Monday, April 20, 1998 8:06 PM
> To:	traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject:	RE: older Traveller products
> 
> So you know,
> 
> I lived in Pusan, South Korea for a year and if you think Las Vegas is bad,
> it can't touch Pusan.  The last time I checked, Pusan was THE most dangerous
> place to drive.  They have signs all over the city,  big ones that cross
> over the entire road., saying how many accidents there were that day, how
> many people were injured, and how many people died.  Looking over my
> journal, the lowest record was 35 accidents, 45 people injured, 0 people
> dead.  The highest was 762 accidents, 1248 people injured, 235 people dead.
> In one day!  Granted, it did snow that day-a rare occurrence.  To get a
> better  idea of how bad it was, the company truck I drove to and from work
> had mirrors that would rotate into the body so they wouldn't break off.  I
> would get to work and rotate the mirrors back to their original position.  I
> would come home from work and fix the mirrors again.  It did get a little
> old after a while.  One thing that still scares me is that people also would
> drive on the sidewalk to pass.  And that there was street lights, but they
> were only for the tourists.
> 
> Vale,
> David
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> Las Vegas has got you all beat. The worst drivers from Canada, LA, NY, and
> Chicago among others all migrate here. Las Vegas is now worse than South
> Florida (Oh yeah; have I told you about the old retirees in their damn blue
> plates (the old plates) driving 10-15 mph slower than the posted speed limit
> in the left lane, while the LA gangbangers in their lowriders cut you off
> swerving around them?). We have the highest insurance rates in the country to
> prove it. Of course I always thought that Las Vegas should be rated by TAS
> as
> at least an amber zone....:-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:38:35 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:38:06 +1200 Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
writes:
>We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but nothing
>damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does stories
>about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural disaster.
>

Hey! How bout this?  I live in Tennessee, you know, we just had a nice
line of tornadoes in the last few days.  Your PCs are on a planet, when a
tornado drops on the starport!!  Hmmmm, wonder if a Type S scout could be
picked up? At the very least, their ship could be damaged from flying
debris (Golly gee cap'n, I'd get the hatch open if that shuttle wasn't
sitting on it!!!)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.  (in Tennessee, where Watch Out For That Tree!!!
takes on a whole new meaning!!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:30:33 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

>On Thu, 16 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:
>
>> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier
>> war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be
>> involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.
>> Does anyone have any idea for things that a small
>> group of reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)
>> might be reasonably expected to do?  

My apologies, but I just now started paying attention to this thread. 
How bout gun running to worlds on the fringes of the fighting, or caught
behind the lines?  (Sorry, I'm just a rogue at heart)


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows!!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
How many players does it take to change a light bulb?  FIve, one to
change it and four to lay down covering fire.

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:12:41 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: . . . the water was FREEZING

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Brian Mays wrote:

> . . . but Brian tenuously dips his toe back into the pool . . .
> 
> After the cries of PIRATES AHOY! and the lengthy thread that my last
> mercantile offer spawned, I will ask this:  is it ok to sell/auction
> Traveller items on this list, or is that better left to the
> rec.rpg.merchandise (or whatever it's called) newsgroup?  I haven't belonged
> to this list for long enough to know if such things are considered gauche.
> 
> Brian (potentially with a hidden cache of Traveller stuff) Mays
> 
> 

Yes, so long as the offers made and then  all negotiations taken
private...there's been some complaints about long drawn out auctions
taking up list space and time.

But hey, _most_ of the old Trav stuff I've bought has been gotten through
this list, so I'm not gonna tell you no! ;-)

Actually I will...yeah, I'm the official designated list 'stuff-checker'
yeah, that's the ticket, you gotta show me everything first, yeah..me and
my wife Heather Locklear, yeah... ;-P

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:12:00 -0500
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> At 03:18 PM 4/20/98 -0400, "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net> wrote:
>>> Trisen wrote
>>> No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>>> more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>>> meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>>> efficiency).
>>>
>> Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.  Who's to
>> say what they will be made from 5000 years from now.  To assume that
>> the ability to get more from less doesn't exist in the future is like
>> assuming that there isn't any other planets in the entire universe with intelligent
>> life on them.  Thanks, I'd rather not if you don't mind.
>
> Postulate whatever tech you like, but if you want to use any kind of solar
> cells, then you cannot get more power out of them than there is solar power
> to retrieve.
>
> In an empty hex, there is very little sunlight.  Even if we captured every
> possible erg of energy, we cannot get more power than the surrounding stars
> radiate.  Leonard figured out 25 nanowatts, and I am willing to believe the
> number since he rarely screws up data like that, but if you do not, it is
> not that hard to discover the total energy radiated by the sun, and then
> work out what it would look like from a parsec away.
>
> If there are only 25 nanowatts out there, then no matter what you make your
> solar cells from, you cannot get more than that out.  For more than that,
> you need to either bring your own power, or postulate a magic energy
> machine which produces power from nothing.  Sheffield has made such a
> machine the basis of a number of stores, but it leads to very different
> results from Traveller.
>
> Scott

Most solar cells today convert only a narrow spectrum of the energy produced by the sun to energy.
If you could make a cell that could convert a broader range of the spectrum (x-rays to radio waves, 
not just a narrow range of visible light), you could get a lot more energy from the cells. Does anyone 
know what the total energy output of the sun is, across the whole range of the spectrum and not just the
visible light range?

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:28:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, TravelrTNE wrote:

> Regarding death by "Grav pong" to boarders, Derek Stanley wrote this once upon
> a time... 
> 
> >GRAV-BELT...
> >
> >The floor ceiling grav ratio is likely to be only 2 g's maybe 3 g's
> >max.  If you eliminate 99% of gravity with a grav belt your floor to
> >ceiling fall ratio would be 0.27m/s^2, nothing you couldn't play cat
> >with and flip over for, or handle on your own pretty easily.
> >Considering it would take about 5 seconds to hit a 3 meter high roof
> >(I'm not going to to the math).

Ok, while you're flipping, catlike, to land on your feet, the
anti-boarding crew shoots you with a shotgun. 

Even if you can handle the sudden changes without bouncing off the walls,
you're going to be distracted. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:31:14 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Nuclear devices and the EMP effect

A question for those who know ...

According to what I understand, the EMP effect of nuclear weapons is caused
by gamma ray interaction with the earth's atmosphere. However, this effect
is most noticible at very low (less than 4,000 m) or very high (greater
than 30,000 m) altitudes, and that at other altitudes it is negligible. (My
source is the document "Nuclear Weapons Frequently Asked Questions" by
Carey Sublette, found at http://www.milnet.com/milnet/nukeweap).

I reason this out to mean that there is no EMP effect generated in deep
space, away from planetary atmospheres. Is this a correct assumption?

If so, then if you have a spacecraft near enough to the explosion that it
gets a good dose of gamma rays, (say a TL 8 civilian spacecraft) would the
craft's internal atmosphere serve to propagate the EMP effect?

I suppose more importantly, would it matter? Or would the vessel have to be
so close to the epicenter of the explosion that other effects would be more
important than an electro-magnetic pulse?

What I am envisioning is an explosion (like a detonation laser missile)
that is not directed at you and is too far off to do direct damage from the
blast (i.e. thermal effects).

Actually a general explaination of what effects a space-detonated nuclear
warhead would have would be much appreciated. If not on the TML, just sent
to me personally or in the form of "Here, look at this website and stop
bothering us, idiot."

Oh, and does anyone know why sfx people in hollywood seem to always depict
really big explosions in deep space as mostly *plane* effects, rather than
spheres?

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:36:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mark Urbin wrote:

>    Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.  In a package smaller
> than your old daytimer, you can, right now, today, have a 3Com PalmPilot
> and a cell modem hooked up.  That's real time email and web browsing while
> walking in the park!

Sniff, sniff...you could have had that, backlighting and a real OS two
years ago with a Newton 130. Hell, I can get e-mail on my 1994 vintage
Newton 100.

(still pissed a Jobs for killing the Newt before I could afford a MP2100)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:37:23 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: New FFS2 Spreadsheet Version

Well, its been a while, but I've churned out another bug-fix of my FF&S
spreadsheet. It's up to version 2.3 now - this version corrects some mass
problems with some systems, and also repairs grapples which were way too
heavy (important if you're using the realistic thrust system).

The spreadsheet can be found in Excel 5.0 and Quattro Pro 8 formats on my
newly updated Traveller site: www.ames.net/igor/traveller

The sheet can be downloaded from two sections: my site now has a Master File
List page for those of you who don't want to wade through the site to get
files, and a copy is there; If you prefer to look in the site proper, the
spreadsheet can be found on the Operations page (note this is a change - i
used to be on the Drydock page). Note that there are now two versions of the
site - a High Bandwidth and a Low Bandwidth. It is my intent to make all of
my material available to everyone, so if those of you using Lynx have
trouble on the Low Bandwidth site, please let me know.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:49:32 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: The little code thingy

Hiya everyone. Could one of you please explain to me the rules for 
setting up one of these?

> IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

I vaguely remember this being covered a few months ago, but I don't 
remember the specifics.

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk 
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ USA
dss2@erols.com

Webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:04:13 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks

>> Alan Peery <peery@io.com> wrote:
>>
>> >I don't know about the new rules, but I wouldn't take the Gazelle as
>> >a pointer to earlier design rules.  If memory serves it carries a
>> >particle accelerator barbette, and High Guard rules didn't allow
>> >barbettes on ships of less than 1000 tons...
>>
>> IIRC the limit was on *bays* not barbettes?
>>
>> There were MT designs which allowed 1 bay per 1000 dT or part of.
>
>Holdovers from CT, which specifies 1 HP per 100 displacement tons *OR* 1
>weapons bay per 1000.
>
>Couple design errors in Adventure Class Ships Vol 1 had weapons bays AND
>hardpoints in an illegal mix, then claimed the ship could whip anything in
>its size class.  Kinda like bringing an Ingram to a kung fu match...

That would be the Chameleon Class Q-Ship.  Originally intended as
anti-pirate, obviously acquired by pirates for their own use soon after
introduction.

It had four Particle Accellerator turrets and one 100 ton missile bay.
Quite a monster.

I redesigned it with four laser turrets two missile, two sandcasters, and a
factor 6 computer, and it did pretty well (but lost) against a (Player
controlled) Close Escort, Patrol Cruiser, and assorted (relatively useless)
other craft.  The battle seemed to turn on a bevy of missiles launched from
external racks on a nearby station and from the Close Escort (replaced the
drop tanks with missile launch tubes) and the computer level of the close
escort.

Jo Grant had an even nastier design.  I don't recall the specs though.

(combat under megatraveller rules btw).

That 800 ton ship, as designed, required hardpoints equal to 1400 ton
vessels,  not quite twice its size.  Someone wasn't paying attention at
FASA.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:04:50 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

>With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>
>And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
>
>Bloo

who says we arent?

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:27:33 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
> >
> >And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
> >
> >Bloo
>
> who says we arent?

Aren't lousy GM's or not running campaigns?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:59:20 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

At 11:38 AM 4/21/98 +1200, you wrote:
>We just had a bit of an earthquake (don't know any details yet, but nothing
>damaged where I am), and it made me wonder if anyone still does stories
>about travellers being stuck on some planet during a natural disaster.

Tenalphi/Lunion (1826) is  a lovely world.  Perfect atmosphere, nice water
percentage, lots of resources, type A starport.

Nobody lives there.  Why?

Tenalphi has a moon in a decaying orbit.  It is just brushing the Roche
limit.  Estimates of breakup range from tomorrow to two hundred years.
Numerous research teams are frantically trying to catalog the world's life
before the extinction event occurs.

With a decent sized satellite that close, seismic activity is on the rise.
Tides become very important.  The scenario has the players going to pick up
a team that is threatened by increasing seismic events, and being caught up
in a flood basalt.  (A massive volcanic event that literally floods
hundreds of sq. km with lava in seconds.  A flood basalt is why eastern
Washington looks the was it does.)
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:10:52 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)

At 07:15 PM 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>
>> I misread Brian Mays offering of his copy to be an offer to make a copy of
>> the software.  To much work on the Lunion project makes the brain grow
>> fuzz.  My apologies.
>
>Whats the Lunion Project?

I'm detailing the Lunion subsector. Down to the nitty-gritty.  The entire
thing will be up on my web pages by the summer.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:08:09 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

In Phil Foglio's excellent comic book "Buck Godot: Zap Gun For Hire",
adiplomatic riot is broken up by the chief of station security incresing
the gravity to 3g.  When Buck, a Hoffmanite who grew up on New Hoffman with
it's natural gravity of 3g, stands up, the gravity is suddenly pushed up 6g's.

Nice way to end and arguement.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:27:06 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

At 07:03 PM 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:

>     Don't forget the joy of New England rotaries! ("Don't make eye
>contact, that means you are yielding").  

We teach new drivers at SuperShuttle San Francisco a very important rule:

Never make eye contact with an eldery Chinese waiting to cross the street
in Chinatown.  If you see them, they think that you are going to stop since
they are the elder.  I'm serious.  I've nearly wrecked the van because some
idiot thought that he could cross against the light because we had had
looked at each other.

ObTrav:  What odd customs have you thrown at your players to make their
lives more difficult?
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #419
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 420



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Cold Sleep Investments
Re: . . . the water was FREEZING
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Recommended Books
WTB: Twilight's Peak
re: older Traveller products
Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #416
Re:  cancelling tides
Detailing Out (was: Mea Culpa) 
surviving misjumps
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
re: laser communications at interstellar distances
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Bays not Barbettes
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Meteor Impacts
Re: suggested reading
Re: The little code thingy
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Grav Plates
Re: Recommended Books
Re: suggested reading
Re: Grav Plates

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:48:53 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Cold Sleep Investments

At 12:47 PM 4/21/98 +0200, you wrote:

>Send me more of this. If you allow, I'll post them to the Humour pages of
>my websites. Someone had to collect all the jokes from this Mailing List.
>May I? 

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html

- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 07:43:31 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: . . . the water was FREEZING

At 01:54 PM 4/20/98 -0700, you wrote:

>After the cries of PIRATES AHOY! and the lengthy thread that my last
>mercantile offer spawned, I will ask this:  is it ok to sell/auction
>Traveller items on this list, or is that better left to the
>rec.rpg.merchandise (or whatever it's called) newsgroup?  I haven't belonged
>to this list for long enough to know if such things are considered gauche.

My (overly-quick) resposne to your offer of the Logicrucible stuff was
based on a mistaken assumption.. that you were going to *copy* the program
over, not sell the entire set and not keep it on your computer.

As penance for my mistake, I'm going to go let Leroy lecture me about the
RoM for eight hours.

As for auctioning Traveller stuff, as long as the you don't flood the list
with updates, go for it.  The best way would be to do a quicky webpage with
all the details and run the auction from there.
- --

Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
*******************************************
"It is better to have more lightning in the
 brain and less thunder in the mouth."
                              -Sioux saying

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:18:03 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

At 01:07 PM 4/20/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Another misjump note: most people seem to assume that when you come out of
>misjump in an occupied hex you're suitably close to the the star in that
>hex to reach it easily - which (if true) implies some tendancy for misjumps
>to "seek out" gravity wells.

An analogy I've always used for misjumps is a car out of control.  If
nothing gets in it's way, it will roll to a stop somewhere, but if an
obstacle is in it's path, odds are it's going to stop at the obstacle.

A ship that has misjumped while probably exit jumpspace if it hits a steep
enough gravity well.  If not, it just crises at the level of j-pace it has
entered until it leaves naturally.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 08:30:10 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Recommended Books

TNE'rs and Hard Times fans might wan't to check out "Saturn Rukh" by Robert
Forward.  It's about setting up a fuel processing plant in Saturn's upper
atmosphere.

The book is typical Forward, great science but grit your teeth through most
of his people stuff.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:34:18 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: WTB: Twilight's Peak

Anybody got a copy of Twilight's Peak they don't want anymore?  I went thru my 
box & found my copy's missing.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:36:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: older Traveller products

>Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> banged out:
>>>Closer to your new home is Excalibur Hobbies in Malden which has a very few
>>>older items (I mostly cleaned them out over the years, sorry) and a
>>>Compleat Strategist on Mass Ave in Boston which has at least the newer
>>>stuff and some MT books last time I was there.
>>I'm going to avoid Boston if at all possible, the streets are insane and
>so are the drivers...:)
>
>     Oh come on!  That's half the fun!  The real pain is the parking.  You
>can get around that by parking at one of the outlying T (subway) stations.
>You are park at Alewife at the edge of Cambridge, and take the Red line
>straight into Harvard Square.  If you really don't want to drive in Boston,
>pick up a book called Car Free in Boston.
>
>   Ob Traveller:  Land 'em on a TL 6 planet, extensive use of ground cars.
>Don't label all the streets, change the street names when change towns
>(don't mark the boundries), give them out of date maps, have the locals
>drive not just agressively, but hostile.  Hell, throw in some Car Wars
>rules while your at it.

...And when you find a friendly (sort of) local willing to give directions,
use older route numbers (route 1 was changed to route 99 in the 70s: many
still refer to it as Route 1 or "old Route 1", or out of date references
(Turn right where that big candy factory used to be...and get off where the
big coca cola sign used to be [excerted from *real* directions I was
given!]).

Signage: non-existent or deceptive.
Traffic rules: Generally non-obvious.
Local Customs: Thrown in to make things interesting (At some intersections,
left turning traffic is customarily allowed to turn before the oncoming
cars cross the intersection.  This can be interesting if unfamiliar withthe
custom especially when (1) you are the oncoming car or (2) the left turner
is placed somewhere else.)
Other Drivers: driven half mad by all of the above and have a "devil may
care" attitude.
And for god's sake whatever you do don't slow down or stop.

One up on LA: At least we haven't seen any highway shooting incidents (to
my suprise!).

More obtrav: hmmm...aircab drivers with Boston accents make great 'color'.

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:38:11 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Bays not Barbettes was Re: Drop Tanks 

> >Holdovers from CT, which specifies 1 HP per 100 displacement tons *OR* 1
> >weapons bay per 1000.
> >
> >Couple design errors in Adventure Class Ships Vol 1 had weapons bays AND
> >hardpoints in an illegal mix, then claimed the ship could whip anything in
> >its size class.  Kinda like bringing an Ingram to a kung fu match...
> 
> That would be the Chameleon Class Q-Ship.  Originally intended as
> anti-pirate, obviously acquired by pirates for their own use soon after
> introduction.
> 
> It had four Particle Accellerator turrets and one 100 ton missile bay.
> Quite a monster.
> 
> I redesigned it with four laser turrets two missile, two sandcasters, and a
> factor 6 computer, and it did pretty well (but lost) against a (Player
> controlled) Close Escort, Patrol Cruiser, and assorted (relatively useless)
> other craft.  The battle seemed to turn on a bevy of missiles launched from
> external racks on a nearby station and from the Close Escort (replaced the
> drop tanks with missile launch tubes) and the computer level of the close
> escort.
> 
> Jo Grant had an even nastier design.  I don't recall the specs though.
> 
> (combat under megatraveller rules btw).
> 
> That 800 ton ship, as designed, required hardpoints equal to 1400 ton
> vessels,  not quite twice its size.  Someone wasn't paying attention at
> FASA.

No kidding.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:50:02 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

> From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
>
> > Geez, and here I was thinking nobody else ever heard of M*A*S*H :^)
> 
> How do you run into this error?
> German TV shows M.A.S.H. reruns for by now seven (?) years without break.

I was joking. Here in the United States, I don't think that it's legal for
M*A*S*H to not be shown in reruns on at least one channel in every area :^)

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:39:24 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #416

Smart, David writes:
>There is an online article entitled "The $11 Billion Bottle of Wine"
>which analyzes the cost-effective of interstellar trading. ...
>http://www.crossover.com/costik//inttrade.html#table
Unfortunately the author shows a great lack of understanding Traveller
basics. For example he converts displacement tons to kilograms at one
point, assumes that .1% maintenence is paid _every jump_, etc.
    Major Kudos to Costikyan for putting this archive material up.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:01:51 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:  cancelling tides

>That sounds more plausible.
>
>If recall correctly, in addition to tidal effects, a big deviation from
>true zero-gravity in the planned space station is actually drag, since
>it has so much surface area...
>
>Bruce

Cool, a streamlined spacestation with sweeping curves, chrome grille and
roomy backseat.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:56:43 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Detailing Out (was: Mea Culpa) 

> >Whats the Lunion Project?
> 
> I'm detailing the Lunion subsector. Down to the nitty-gritty.  The entire
> thing will be up on my web pages by the summer.

Cool.  I'm working on the Reaver's Deep sector.  Need more info on it tho... 
(hint hint)

My projected timelines will be 1100 & 1200 IY (CT/MT & TNE).  I hope to have 
map gifs & everything.  No projected completion dates, tho...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 98 18:06 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: surviving misjumps

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> Or, if you're an exceptionally kind GM, or wedded to CT/MT fuel
> consumption, let them find a "snowball" before their fuel goes out. For
> added nastiness, make it a pirate or smuggler base.

	what if they dont have 3 nuclear missiles and a PEMS folding array
	to locate the snowball. Does anybody know an other way than the
	let the missiles drift for a week, and pick up reflections with PEMS.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:06:41 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>> >With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>> >
>> >And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
>> >
>> >Bloo
>>
>> who says we arent?
>
>Aren't lousy GM's or not running campaigns?

Running campaigns.  After any dry years, I finally have (again) a regular
campaign night with regular players and highly irregular characters to
knock about some.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:06:48 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>Most solar cells today convert only a narrow spectrum of the energy produced by 
>the sun to energy.
>Does anyone 
>know what the total energy output of the sun is, across the whole range of the s
>pectrum and not just the
>visible light range?
Very little difference; the sun's output is quite sharply peaked in the
visible light range.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:21:41 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: laser communications at interstellar distances

>Pursuant to another debate (what happens when you misjump), I'll note that
>a typical (~10 MW) T4 turret laser is about a tenth magnitude star through a
>1-angstrom filter at 1 parsec, easily detectable by an automated all-sky
>monitoring system. Old-fashioned High Guard beam lasers (250 MW) are
>eighth magnitude, and are naked-eye visible at about a third of a parsec.
>
>Bruce

Be it that they fire in the visible part of the spectrum that is.
I've been fiddling around with an adventure idea for some time but never
get the chance to use it (my group are currently trying to save known space
from baddies from the core that built hyperspace - after the PCs killed
Yaskoydroy!).
Anyways, what if someone knows some vital information and is doomed in his
ship (no thrust but full power). He sends the info with the weapon lasers
(morse code or whatever) at a nearby starsystem he knows about. He then
leave enough clues to his friends and kills himself before the enemy gets
to him. Then his message will travel for years as the friends fail to grasp
the message. Finally today we have some gangsters who got the clues and
hijacks a large jump capable mobile telescope/ship to read the message and
the PCs are there to investigate this or that.
The basic idea is the cool idea of storing information in pulsed beamlaser
shots that will be there for years.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:29:19 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>Lets see, your already frozen and gone thru the manipulation to be
>"cryo-suspended".  I'll bet there is a chance that a little space cold
>which is somewhere around -3 k won't have any effect what so ever
>since you've already gone well past the ice crystal stage.  Does that
>theory have any merit what so ever.  I say theory because as far as I
>know its never been tested to see if in fact there is some little dreg of
>fluid left in your that didn't get frozen so that it might become a crystal.
>Another thing about this is, only the cells that get ice crystals die, not
>the whole body.

Does your body consist of anything other than cells?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:35:40 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>If there are only 25 nanowatts out there, then no matter what you make your
>solar cells from, you cannot get more than that out.  For more than that,
>you need to either bring your own power, or postulate a magic energy
>machine which produces power from nothing.  Sheffield has made such a
>machine the basis of a number of stores, but it leads to very different
>results from Traveller.
>
>Scott

Well, we have the zero point energy fluctuation devices...
(personally I think those are fools gold as they seem to work analogous to
rubber bands: if you stretch them you can actually get energy from them by
releasing them but try building a power plant out of that)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:58:33 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Bays not Barbettes

>That would be the Chameleon Class Q-Ship.  ...
>I redesigned it with four laser turrets two missile, two sandcasters, and
a
>factor 6 computer, and it did pretty well ...
>Jo Grant had an even nastier design.  I don't recall the specs though.

<PRE>
 CrafID: Q Ship, Type QT, TL 15, MCr 401.191
   Hull: 720/1800, Disp=800 tons, Config=4AF, Armour=40, Loaded=14594 tons,
         Unloaded=7774 tons
  Power: 13/31, Fusion=20303Mw, Duration=40/120
   Loco: 101/252, Maneuver=5, 29/72, Jump=3, NOE=1520, Cruise=2592,
         Top=3456, Vacuum=3840, Agility=6
  Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: PasEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=Planetary, EMSJam=Far Orbit,
         Densiometer=250m/250m, Neutrino=10kw, ActObjScan=Difficult,
         ActObjPin=Difficult, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine,
         PasEngScan=Simple, PasObjPin=Routine
    Off: Missiles=x03   BLaser=x04
            Batt  002    Batt  004
            Bear  002    Bear  004
    Def: DefDM=+16
             Sand=x04
            Batt  002
            Bear  002
Control: Computer=9x3, Panel=Holographic Linkedx257, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=4, (Bridge=1, Engineer=1, Gunners=2), Staterooms=4
  Other: Cargo=294t, Fuel=211t, FuelPurify=6 hours, ObjSize=Average,
         EmLevel=Faint
</PRE>

A bit expensive, but with Comp-9 and a DefDM of +16, it can kick ass. I'm
trying to come up with some comparative measure for escorts or fighting
ships to assess the "profitability" of their design. Any ideas?
I'll be experimenting in future designs with micro-batteries. It appears
that since penetrating a defensive batters is a Difficult task, it is
rather difficult to penetrate if you have _any_ defensive. So as a factor-4
sand may only differ by +2 from a factor-2 sand, it may be much better
having three factor-2 batteries than one factor-4 battery. Ditto for lasers
dedicated to point defense.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:42:44 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
>several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
>Thom

The least handwavy solution might be postulating that ships tend to
exitj-space near massive bodies as this seems to be the case when
misjumping to a system hex. Then you could give the players a rogue planet,
fuzzy comet, asteroid, alien base, huge cache of filled up drop tanks from
some since forgotten invasion plan.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:55:36 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Meteor Impacts

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I caught the last part of a Horizon article on meteor impacts on the 
Beeb the other night, and I remembered that there was an article in 
an old edition of Analog called, IIRC 'Giant Meteor Impact' by a guy 
called (again IIRC) Joe Enever. Does anyone know if this article is 
online anywhere or, if not, have a copy that they might send me?

Thanks

Andy Long

- - -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- - ---------------------------------------------------
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Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNTyXSftKvbPYMVxkEQLTBACgl2c6SBWzGPJSxnD/uwktpEN/ULIAoIQr
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:54:50 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: suggested reading

>The descriptions of ships hiding from each other were a influence on my
>Definitive Sensor Rules.
>
<snip>
>
>Bruce

Yeah, I bought the book at your recommendation and I noticed the heat
radiators description and for a nanosecond my murky brain thought that Mr
Hamilton must have ripped Mr Macintosh off ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 09:59:20 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: The little code thingy

Robert Kondrk wrote:
> 
> Hiya everyone. Could one of you please explain to me the rules for
> setting up one of these?
> 
> > IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--
> 
> I vaguely remember this being covered a few months ago, but I don't
> remember the specifics.
> 

The original IMTU code is posted (with permission) on my web site.  I have not
added any of the custom codes (including my own piracy addition), but I'll get
around to it if there seems to be interest.

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:48:04 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

>Interesting point.  What is the range of a densitometer?  Interstellar?
>
>Eris

I've used 1/r^2 IMTU with the baseline of detecting a shipmass (whatever
that is) at somewhat less than the ranges for passives. Bruce (?) pointed
out however that the densitometers probably drop off at 1/^3 as they
measure tidal forces and then they wouldn't be of much use at interstellar
distances.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:02:30 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

james a clem wrote:
> Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till dey glows!!!)
                       				      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You forgot to add the last part: "und shoots dem in de dark"

:)

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:02:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

>Ok, while you're flipping, catlike, to land on your feet, the
>anti-boarding crew shoots you with a shotgun.
>
>Even if you can handle the sudden changes without bouncing off the walls,
>you're going to be distracted.

Yeah.  Vampire ships were the consideration but u could always have some
people willing to take a minor fall and shoot back (which yes, would be
disorienting enough for, say one diff mod?).  What about magnetic boots or
something? : )

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:48:05 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Recommended Books

>It's not Traveller, but I heartily recommend "The Reality Dysfunction" by
>Peter F. Hamilton.  A cracking great story in a richly detailed setting,
>epic scale yet real characters. I liked it so much that I bought the
>hardcover!

Good spacefights (too short ranges though), good starsystems but really
tedious and boring descriptions about living starships and their lovelifes
etc.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:21:49 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: suggested reading

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>And I've been thinking about FFS2 rules for the Voidhawks (biological
>starships...)
>

I love you, and I want to bear your... <ahem>  

I mean, that would be nice :-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:29:13 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

Could Marine combat armour include grav compensators that cancel out the
effects of flipping grav plates?  Kind-of like using out-of-phase waves to
cancel sound?

Assuming that this doesn't break any laws of Traveller physics, then
Marine boarding parties would essentially be fighting in (for them)
zero-G, with the occasional jitter as the grav fields shift.

Unprepared boarders, on the other hand, will get grav ponged.  As will the
crew if the boarding party reaches the bridge (or wherever ship's gravity
is controlled from).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #420
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 21 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 421



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)
Auction?
re: surviving misjumps
re: laser communications at interstellar distances
Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)
Re: Repai
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Grav Plates
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Vision of Future (near future)
Re: Water as Bullets???
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 
Boston
Re: Vision of Future (near future) 
Re: Artificial gravity
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: older Traveller products
Re: . . . the water was FREEZING
Re: The little code thingy
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 13:33:23 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Mea Culpa (was: Product Review)

dberry@hooked.net writes:
>I'm detailing the Lunion subsector. Down to the nitty-gritty.  The entire
>thing will be up on my web pages by the summer.

I have several dozen systems in that neck of the woods completely
detailed.  I would be happy to share them. If someone can convert Word
4.0, SuperPaint (or PICT), and Excel 4.0 files to something Internet
compatible and place them on a web site, I'll email them the works.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:44:07 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: Auction?

>
>As for auctioning Traveller stuff, as long as the you don't flood the list
>with updates, go for it.  The best way would be to do a quicky webpage with
>all the details and run the auction from there.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net

That would be the easiest route; however, I do not have the facilities to
generate a web page of my very own.  Maybe I could post a general list to
TML once a week, and update people who have actually made bids privately &
daily.

Also, has anyone ever done this before?  What are the benefits/downsides of
auctions versus straight-out sales?  How do you estimate postage?  Or do you
actually haul stuff to the Post Office and weigh it first?  How do you
appraise the condition of items?  E-mail me privately with your
experience(s), please.

Finally, until I've actually announced that I'm selling stuff, PLEASE stop
e-mailing me and asking what I've got, or if I've got a specific item!!!
I'm already getting flooded, and I haven't even made a decision!  (I guess
it's a great sign if I DO sell! :)    )

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:53:41 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: surviving misjumps

>> Or, if you're an exceptionally kind GM, or wedded to CT/MT fuel
>> consumption, let them find a "snowball" before their fuel goes out. For
>> added nastiness, make it a pirate or smuggler base.
>        what if they dont have 3 nuclear missiles and a PEMS folding array
>        to locate the snowball. Does anybody know an other way than the
>        let the missiles drift for a week, and pick up reflections with PEMS.

You can calculate the AEMS signature of a snowball yourself using its
surface area and my sensor rules or FFS2. AEMS is actually competetive
with the nuke flashlight approach - running an AEMS for a month puts out
10^13 joules, after all, nicely formatted at narrow bands your AEMS can
pick out easily.

Snowballs will still have some passive signature - they'll equilibriate with
diffuse starlight to about 11 K, and reflect some of that diffuse
starlight as well. Somewhere on my project list is doing passive signature
calculations for such objects - maybe I should move it up the project list
(currently headed by finishing the beta version of my Military Starship
Combat System...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 10:55:20 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: laser communications at interstellar distances

>Finally today we have some gangsters who got the clues and
>hijacks a large jump capable mobile telescope/ship to read the message and
>the PCs are there to investigate this or that.

My entry in the March THUDD (labship) would be a good choice for this - one
mode is (big surprise) basically a Giant Flying Sensor with extra jump
capability.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:04:06 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

At 07:36 AM 4/21/98 -0700, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>    Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.  In a package smaller
>> than your old daytimer, you can, right now, today, have a 3Com PalmPilot
>> and a cell modem hooked up.  That's real time email and web browsing while
>> walking in the park!
>
>Sniff, sniff...you could have had that, backlighting and a real OS two
>years ago with a Newton 130. Hell, I can get e-mail on my 1994 vintage
>Newton 100.
>(still pissed a Jobs for killing the Newt before I could afford a MP2100)

Me too, me too.

When I first picked up a Newton 110, I was convinced that the handcomp had
arrived.  (Of course, it understood my handwriting out of the box.  Others
were not so fortunate.)

What distressed me so much was that the technology sure looked like a
winner, and yet it is most likely that wince boxes are going to end up as
the market victors, without providing me with the functionality I wanted.

Sigh.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:43:45 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Repai

"Eric Freitas" <ericfreitas@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

>The goal by many companies is the "System on a Chip".
>This is a very big thing right now and will probably
>be available within 1 to 2 years in consumer appliances.
>
>Everything is on a single chip, the CPU, Graphics Chip,
>Audio Chip, Memory, DSP...

Atari had got the Jaguar console down to three chips, and were working on a
single chip version when they gave up.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:48:15 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
 
> >There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
> >several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
> >Thom

Why "must" there be a way to survive misjump?  There are a lot of things
over which you have no control, and some of them will sometimes kill you
and there's not a thing you can do about it.  Misjump is one of them.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 11:42:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

At 01:29 PM 4/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Could Marine combat armour include grav compensators that cancel out the
>effects of flipping grav plates?  Kind-of like using out-of-phase waves to
>cancel sound?

Ooohh.... I like it...  A heavy duty grav belt that senses, and compenstaes
for the changes.

- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:54:03 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

<<<<<<<From: dberry@hooked.net
An analogy I've always used for misjumps is a car out of control.  If
nothing gets in it's way, it will roll to a stop somewhere, but if an
obstacle is in it's path, odds are it's going to stop at the obstacle.

A ship that has misjumped while probably exit jumpspace if it hits a
steep enough gravity well.  If not, it just cruises at the level of
j-pace it has entered until it leaves naturally.
- - --
Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net>>>>>>>>>>

I like this.  Always leaves the crew somewhere near a system of some
sort, but who knows where...  Quite literally, YMMV!  And the GM could
always leave them "stranded" in an "empty" space if he needed.

cheers,
Greg Smith,
The Count of 
MonteCristo@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:21:26 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 01:48 PM 4/21/98 , Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
>> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> 
>> >There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
>> >several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
>> >Thom
>
>Why "must" there be a way to survive misjump?  There are a lot of things
>over which you have no control, and some of them will sometimes kill you
>and there's not a thing you can do about it.  Misjump is one of them.

For the same reason that accidents during character creation should not be
fatal.  It's not fun to play.  We're not attempting to simulate real life
here, we're trying to tell stories.  Can you imagine if at some point
during an  SF novel the author jumped the characters, hope, dreams and
goals unfulfilled, into an empty region of space and killed them?  I'd feel
dissatisfied...
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:38:10 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Vision of Future (near future)

For a look at one possibility for the future, look at
<http://www.skystation.com>  Stratospheric Telecommunications System
uses balloons and derigibles as the platform instead of satellites.  

ObTrav:  You arrive at a TL 9/10 world Highport.  You plan on taking
your gig to the surface, or renting an airraft.  The SpA ask if you've
been there before.  When you answer no, they hand you the rules of the
road concerning derigible avoidance, and holovids of joyriding
youngsters crashing into a balloon at an altitude of 22km.....

Cheers,
Greg Smith
The Count of 
Montecristo@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:29:06 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Water as Bullets???

>> The Egyptians also used water cannon's to knock  down 
the sand barricades put up by the Israeli's in the 72' war 
(IIRC) along  the banks of the Suez canal.  They went 
through them in hours when the  defenders had postulated it 
would take a 3 - 6 days to dig through them. <<

Oh yeah, I remember that! A stormin' use of Combat 
Engineering skill and good thinking. 

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| Do not use a hatchet to remove a fly from your friend's      |
| forehead.                                                    |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 15:29:04 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

>> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier  
war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be  
involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.  
Does anyone have any idea for things that a small  group of 
reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)  might be 
reasonably expected to do?   <<

I and my group have "passed through" this period in history 
several times (we start games in 1106-8 and work up) and 
have varied from hide till it's over to drafting everyone - 
and their ship - and fitting them into planetary invasions 
suitable to their capabilites. The chance to kick some 
serious rear end. 

Generally, come up with a reason to form your PCs plus 
optional others into a "special forces" type unit, make 
them feel special, and use them for specific jobs rather 
than cannon fodder infantry. Of course, if you're a cruel 
GM, you can reverse all this and put them in a soft skinned 
vehicle with TAC missiles flying around. Heh heh.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| Statistics are often used as a drunk uses a lamp-post; for   |
| support rather than illumination.                            |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:10:56 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return. 

> > From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
>  
> > >There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
> > >several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
> > >Thom
> 
> Why "must" there be a way to survive misjump?  There are a lot of things
> over which you have no control, and some of them will sometimes kill you
> and there's not a thing you can do about it.  Misjump is one of them.

Dead characters without *SOME* options for survival leads to pissed off 
players.  Pissed off players leads to dead campaigns.  IMNSFBHO, give 'em a 
*CHANCE* to survive, but make 'em *WORK* for it.

FWIW, I have *NO* problems killing off characters doing blatantly *STOOPID* 
things, like, trying to swim in full fuel tanks (according to the rules, 
anybody who enters a full fuel tank enters an environment that's within 2 or 3 
degrees of absolute zero.  And if they're not a Helium II-based lifeform that 
would consider such temperatures home, they *DIE*.  Instant ice cubes.  Same 
thing with somebody thinking they can stop a nuke from going off by jumping on 
top of it, or stopping a steamroller by standing in front of it.  Stoopid 
stunts DESERVE death.  They've been previously warned...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 12:17:44 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Boston

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> types:
>Subject: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
>With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
>Bloo

    Well, I am...when I can.  For details use the URL in the sig, and
follow the Space Vermin RPG Assoc. links.  My current job is making our
sessions a bit choppy.  I've been on the road a lot.  Currently I'm in the
midst of a whirlwind, two week, three country tour.  
    Take a look at the Space Vermin stuff and then drop a line to me or the
Caffinator.  We are currently scattered about the Metro-Boston area, but
usually play in the Waltham/Newton area.




- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway. 
That's our story and we're sticking to it.  
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 16:51:20 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Vision of Future (near future) 

> For a look at one possibility for the future, look at
> <http://www.skystation.com>  Stratospheric Telecommunications System
> uses balloons and derigibles as the platform instead of satellites.  

Interesting site.  I can see this happening at TL8/9/10 for recovering worlds 
before they regain space.

> ObTrav:  You arrive at a TL 9/10 world Highport.  You plan on taking
> your gig to the surface, or renting an airraft.  The SpA ask if you've
> been there before.  When you answer no, they hand you the rules of the
> road concerning derigible avoidance, and holovids of joyriding
> youngsters crashing into a balloon at an altitude of 22km.....

*COOL*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:23:59 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Artificial gravity

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> Mon, 20 Apr 1998 13:31:49 -0400, ringrose@ascent.com
> 
> > There's a thread going on about artificial gravity, and using it to
> > defend the ship.
> 
> > >From a GMing perspective I believe rapid alterations in gravity are
> > bad:
> 
> [Deletions...]
> 
> I agree with the problem from a GM perspective.  My solution
> is that every grav plate has a control module in the corner.
> The boarders just shoot the modules as they go along and
> fight from 0-gee.
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> 

We'll you don't have to do this. All the borders nead is magnetic
grappling boots or some gadget that has this effect to avoid this effect.
On military ships add a gravbelt to counter the 6Gs that the crew will use
to make you to heavy to move.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:59:35 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

An update: The earthquake was about 150 miles down, and was felt over a
radius of 200-300 miles. Because of the shape of the various plates, etc
those directly over it felt almost nothing, but some areas had thier phone
and power lines taken out, and some minor stuctural damage was done. The
quake was 6.3 Richter in strength, and boy am I glad it wasn't shallower.

I was just thinking while it jolted and rolled past how 'exciting' it would
be to be in your ship having just moved your reactor down to warm when an
earthquake strikes. I bet you'd be really happy to be in a squat little
Free Trader as opposed to something a little taller. 

Actually you might not even notice if the internal gravity was still on
until something fell over onto your ship. Hmmm...


- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:05:22 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

At 07:59 AM 21/04/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>With a decent sized satellite that close, seismic activity is on the rise.
>Tides become very important.  The scenario has the players going to pick up
>a team that is threatened by increasing seismic events, and being caught up
>in a flood basalt.  (A massive volcanic event that literally floods
>hundreds of sq. km with lava in seconds.  A flood basalt is why eastern
>Washington looks the was it does.)

What does eastern Washington look like?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:12:30 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 06:35 PM 22/04/98 +0200, Anders Backman wrote:

>Well, we have the zero point energy fluctuation devices...
>(personally I think those are fools gold as they seem to work analogous to
>rubber bands: if you stretch them you can actually get energy from them by
>releasing them but try building a power plant out of that)

If the energy density is high enough they'll make good batteries, though.
If it's really high they could make a power plant, too. After all a power
plant and fuel are basically just like a battery.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:06:03 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Anders Backman wrote:

> >There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
> >several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
> >Thom
>
> The least handwavy solution might be postulating that ships tend to
> exitj-space near massive bodies as this seems to be the case when
> misjumping to a system hex. Then you could give the players a rogue planet,
> fuzzy comet, asteroid, alien base, huge cache of filled up drop tanks from
> some since forgotten invasion plan.

Assuming you're talking about the d6 d6's misjump, you could bypass that rule
and just roll directions until they intersect another system.  That makes
misjumps in the mains very safe and short (one parsec) while misjumps out in
the boonies could be very far indeed. Either way, they'd end up in a system.
This system may not have a means of refueling though...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:15:44 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> >
> >> >With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?

[snip]

> Running campaigns.  After any dry years, I finally have (again) a regular
> campaign night with regular players and highly irregular characters to
> knock about some.

Wish I wasn't finishing law school, or I'd beg to join in.  Even though I just
finished my last class of law school, papers, exams and bar review will keep me
busy for months to come.  :-(

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:32:08 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

At 05:07 PM 4/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
>>drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
>>seen such anarchy on the roads. Green means go, yellow means go faster,
>>and red means floor it, you might still make it through. At least SF and
>>Oakland have stoplights.  You've never driven insanely till you've hit a
>>Boston traffic circle. 
>
>Amen Bruce!  hehe, that's exactly how I felt when I was there this last
>week.  Soon I'll be living there.  SIGH.
> 

Don't forget the one-way-street mazes...  Unlike anything I've seen elsewhere!




Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:24:10 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: . . . the water was FREEZING

> After the cries of PIRATES AHOY! and the lengthy thread that my last
> mercantile offer spawned, I will ask this:  is it ok to sell/auction
> Traveller items on this list, or is that better left to the
> rec.rpg.merchandise (or whatever it's called) newsgroup?  I haven't belonged
> to this list for long enough to know if such things are considered gauche.
AFAIK, its ok to post the original auction offer and list to the TML, but better to
keep the updates offlist. That way, interested people can bid while others get less
noise! Posting only to newsgroup would leave me out, as my access provider has trouble
with newsgroups momentarily, and i only read them once a month anyway!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:23:36 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: The little code thingy

> The original IMTU code is posted (with permission) on my web site.

Thanks. :) In response, I minted a new sig with my IMTU code.

Bob
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

IMTU tc+ ?tm ?tn t4+ ?tg>+ ru- ge+ 3i+ jt au- st+ ls 
kk- hi as va+ dr so- zh vi- da+ sy-
Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 18:23:12 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:42:30 EDT, TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
>    The Original Fire, Fusion, and Steel said that the "jump fuel" was used
> partially as coolant, partially as fuel (presumably for a reactor of some
> kind), and partially as displacement mass.  What's wrong w/ everyone getting a
> lil piece of their J-Drive theory affirmed? : )

It should be noted that these were given as options (throught the use
of the word "or") since FF&S was applicable outside of Traveller cannon.

I don't like "displacement mass", but we have had the flame war already.

As far as drop tanks, they do open up a bad precident (no matter what
your theory is).  They introduce the idea that you don't have to 
carryyour fuel with you, and so are only a quarter step away from
"jump gates" or "jump stations", which would be a big change in the
background.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:32:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

David P. Summers wrote:

> Date: Mon, 20 Apr 1998 21:42:30 EDT, TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
> >    The Original Fire, Fusion, and Steel said that the "jump fuel" was used
> > partially as coolant, partially as fuel (presumably for a reactor of some
> > kind), and partially as displacement mass.  What's wrong w/ everyone getting a
> > lil piece of their J-Drive theory affirmed? : )
>
> It should be noted that these were given as options (throught the use
> of the word "or") since FF&S was applicable outside of Traveller cannon.
>
> I don't like "displacement mass", but we have had the flame war already.
>
> As far as drop tanks, they do open up a bad precident (no matter what
> your theory is).  They introduce the idea that you don't have to
> carry your fuel with you, and so are only a quarter step away from
> "jump gates" or "jump stations", which would be a big change in the
> background.

Thank you.  That's just what I was saying. Canon is all about precident. Somebody
asked at some point why I bothered working out the specifics of jump travel. As I
see it, if you to put out specifics like that, you'll get bad precident.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:18:30 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pen.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.


>Well, if you don't want to have it be possible to find a snowball, then you
>*do* have a couple of possibilities.
>
>1. If lowberths are *cold* sleep, then once the corpusicles have chilled,
>it should be possible to lower the temperature down to nearly 3k..seeing as
>you are in deep space..and maintain it with only occasional checks and
>tweaks from the program running the lowberth.  With an RTG built into each
>berth you could drift for centuries...if you want to say you can.
>
>2. Don't allow jumps to *dead* space, even misjumps. Just say you can only
>jump to the vicinity of a gravity source. Jumps into "empty" hexes are
>really within a few AU of a rouge black or brown dwarf, or buned out
>cinder. Does this mean you could build refueling stations in "empty"
>hexes...yes, and that does affect the game. Then again, some "empty" hexes
>*are* empty and no ship can jump into that hex, period.
>
>Just a couple of ideas.
>
>Eris
>

Thank you Eris that post goes in my notes too!  BTW, I haven't ruled out
giant snowballs either.


Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. responded to the following:

> >There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
> >several options if possible.  I am asking too much?
>>Thom

>Why "must" there be a way to survive misjump?  There are a lot of things
>over which you have no control, and some of them will sometimes kill you
>and there's not a thing you can do about it.  Misjump is one of them.

>--Glenn

The idea is to keep the game going if at all possible.  If the PC's got here
through extremely unfortunate circumstances I don't want them to die.  If on
the other hand they got here thru stupidity then they will surely roll up
new characters.  Killing off the PC's at random intervals is a sure way to
disillusion them to your game.  If that game happens to be Traveller I don't
believe that we can afford to just drop the PC's into a hole and forget
about them because we will lose them to Star Wars or some other misbegotten
RPG (no specific slam at Star Wars intended, just used generically).  They
are playing for the fun of it and what's the fun of dieing. I have
occasionally killed a PC, I didn't want to but in almost every case it was
person sacrificing their life for the good of the others.  When I do, I try
to make it heroic so that ballads will be sung about him/her and drinks
taken at their favorite tavern in remembrance of his/her great deed/s.

I want to keep them alive, I want to stay within the laws of physics and I
want to stay within cannon.  I don't necessarily know how to do all of this,
hence this discussion.
Thom

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #421
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 422



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Your wish is my command! (sorta...)
Re: zero point energy
One more time!
Web sites?
Design Request TL13-15 Burrowing Vehicle
Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates
Re: Misjumps IMTU
RE: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates
Re: Grav Plates
Re: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Grav Plates
Re: Vision of Future (near future)
Re: WTB: Twilight's Peak
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Recommended Books
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
PbEM ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 22:41:20 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation


>I finally finished adapting High Guard Chargen rules for T4 (T4.1).
>This is the prototype for my effort to do this with every career, so
>criticism and comments are welcome.  If it seems to work alright, it
>shouldn't take long to post the rest.  (And, yes, I did come up with a
>way to do advanced year-by-year chargen for the non-military careers.)
>
>Please take a look at
>Thanks,
>Bloo
>
Bloo,
    The officer ranks go to O-10.  Your list is good thru O-7, Commodore but
the next rank should be O-8, Rear Admiral.  By adding that you will keep it
in line with the other branches of service which also have four flag ranks
(Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and General).  I'm
still looking at the rest of it but it looks REALLY GOOD.

Here's a little trivia for you:

    The Navy used to reserve the rank of Commodore for war time only.  A
single star carried the title "Rear Admiral, Lower" and two stars was "Rear
Admiral, Upper".  Its been a while but I think that it changed to Commodore
full time back a few years ago.  Any Navy/Marines out there care to comment?
    When the U.S. authorized a fifth star to certain officers toward the end
of WWII the titles were "General of the Armies" and "Admiral of the Fleets".
There were five Army and three Navy.  Marines had none because they were
after all only a Corps (normally a three star position) in size.  The Air
Force was part of the Army, "The Army Air Corps" until 1947 so they didn't
have one either.

    Sorry for the band width, I'm off now.....
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:12:00 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

Thom Harris wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> Subject: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
>
> >Please take a look at
> >Thanks,
> >Bloo
> >
> Bloo,



>     The officer ranks go to O-10.  Your list is good thru O-7, Commodore but
> the next rank should be O-8, Rear Admiral.  By adding that you will keep it
> in line with the other branches of service which also have four flag ranks
> (Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General and General).  I'm
> still looking at the rest of it but it looks REALLY GOOD.

Good eye, but I used the T4.1 beta materials for the ranks.  Its my goal to have
it be compatible with the next iteration.  Feel free to amend as necessary.
IMHO, its the number and not the name that is important.

Thanks for the comment.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 19:45:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Your wish is my command! (sorta...)

>As penance for my mistake, I'm going to go let Leroy lecture me about the
>RoM for eight hours.

  OK. Nobody ever did really properly answer the following :)

>Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:04:42 -0600
>From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
>Subject: Re: RoM/Terra TL
>
>On Thu, 21 Aug 1997 00:09:43 -0400
>hdhale@siscom.net (Harold Hale) writes:
...
>>>As for RoM TL, the little bit of text devoted to TL period in the game
>>>just kind of dances around what TL is, only to really say that TL 12- is
>>>in one category, and TL13+ is in another (for combat purposes).  That is
>>>why I can see TL15 being a possible explanation for the Solomani.
>>
>>   Wrong...and well, by now *everybody* knows the rest.
>
>Sorry Harold, you can interpret the I:E combat rules any way you want to,
>but the plain English version [whose detractors I have told to write GDW
>and ask them for a ruling on, though that no longer works :(   ] that I
>have only mildly paraphrased above is the way it is.  No IFs ANDs or BUTs.
>In I:E, the combat treats TL13+ _all_ _exactly_ the same.

  I checked Rule:4 - Combat in our clubs copy of I:E on Sunday and it
treats the TL of surface units exactly the way FFW did (IIRC) - each
TL difference between opposing units is a _column shift_ on the CRT.
Thus, a TL 14 unit vs an inferior TL enemy gets a (14-TL) advantageous
shift on the CRT; a TL 15 unit would get an additional column shift.

  Presumably Mr. Guatney's I:E copy is an earlier edition with more
primitive rules.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:20:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: zero point energy

>Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:12:30 +1200
>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
>
>At 06:35 PM 22/04/98 +0200, Anders Backman wrote:
>
>>Well, we have the zero point energy fluctuation devices...
>>(personally I think those are fools gold as they seem to work analogous to
>>rubber bands: if you stretch them you can actually get energy from them by
>>releasing them but try building a power plant out of that)
>
>If the energy density is high enough they'll make good batteries, though.
>If it's really high they could make a power plant, too. After all a power
>plant and fuel are basically just like a battery.

  This might be the best explanation for the "anti-matter batteries" in
A:3 - Twilights Peak. They produce a certain amount of power more or less
indefinitely (300,000 years or so) and they don't blow up very much no
matter what you do them - including hitting one with a PGMP, presumably.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:20:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: One more time!

>As penance for my mistake, I'm going to go let Leroy lecture me about the
>RoM for eight hours.

  Just in case you haven't repented yet.

>Date: Sat, 23 Aug 1997 17:04:42 -0600
>From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
>Subject: Re: RoM/Terra TL
...
>Exactly, and you can still point to the fact that MT redid the whole
>Solomani Sphere as a max. TL15, rather than the previous TL14.
>Just add +1 to relevant CT sources that may have been written before
>the "change."

  Did anyone ever establish whether the above was GDW's intent, and
precisely where (if?) they may have stated such?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 20:27:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Web sites?

  Does anyone know of any web sites with photos of any Traveller
miniatures?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:46:10 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Design Request TL13-15 Burrowing Vehicle

One of my players speculated about an armored military vehicle which could
be used as a tank in situations where the signature of the vehicle would
make it easy to spot from orbit.  I said "I'll look into it and see if
there are any rules for burrowing vehicles.

We're using T4 rules.  Has anyone designed such a vehicle and if so under
what vehicle rules?  Is this a viable combat vehicle?
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 06:17:56 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates

Those'd be some kind of boots, to anchor a Battle-Dress equipped Marine
agains a suden -6g. And think of the leg muscles you could develop wearing
them!

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 98 00:26:29 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

On 04/22/98 at 06:48 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>>Interesting point.  What is the range of a densitometer?  Interstellar?

>I've used 1/r^2 IMTU with the baseline of detecting a shipmass (whatever
>that is) at somewhat less than the ranges for passives. Bruce (?) pointed
>out however that the densitometers probably drop off at 1/^3 as they
>measure tidal forces and then they wouldn't be of much use at interstellar
>distances.

That's what I thought. I don't think densitometers would be much help
detecting anything smaller than a planet beyond a million km or so. I
haven't tried to figure it, though, just "rule of thumbing."

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:00:07 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates

This is why, IMHO, Engineering is considered so important in boarding actions...

- ----------
From: 	MJ Dougherty[SMTP:martinjd@globalnet.co.uk]
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 21, 1998 10:17 PM
To: 	traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates

Those'd be some kind of boots, to anchor a Battle-Dress equipped Marine
agains a suden -6g. And think of the leg muscles you could develop wearing
them!

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:49:26 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

> Could Marine combat armour include grav compensators that cancel out the
> effects of flipping grav plates?  Kind-of like using out-of-phase waves to
> cancel sound?
>

That is the way I played it in my early CT campaigns (1980-ish).  I have 
since decided that the grav plates hold a "charge" that takes time to build 
up and change.

This lets me have gravity slowly coming back when the PCs bring up the power 
plant on an abandoned ship (an ever-popular situation); allows people time 
to strap into their chairs when power is lost and so on.  I generally a 
vague "several minutes" as the time scale to change the grav plates.

One interesting side effect of the rule is the rate at which a ship can 
change its acceleration ... if everyone is strapped in, then 2 or 3 g's 
change should not cause serious problems, but passenger liners (and 
merchant ships) are forced to "lumber along", changing accleration only 
slowly - which makes them easier to hit in combat.

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:13:51 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> Those'd be some kind of boots, to anchor a Battle-Dress equipped Marine
> agains a suden -6g. And think of the leg muscles you could develop wearing
> them!
> 
> MJD
> 

Thats why you also give your boarders a gravbelt or other similat utility
to counter the high Gs, the boots are simply there to give the boarders a
flat surface to walk on so that the changes in gravity dosn't distract
them in a potensial firefight. For every measure there is an effective
countermeasure, its just a question of imagination.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:12:42 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

David P. Summers writes:
>As far as drop tanks, they do open up a bad precident (no matter what
>your theory is).  They introduce the idea that you don't have to 
>carry your fuel with you, and so are only a quarter step away from
>"jump gates" or "jump stations", which would be a big change in the
>background.

You would be right about drop tanks not fitting into the rest of the
Traveller Universe if it wasn't for several facts: 1) It turns out that
you need a fairly high turnover in fuel before it is economic to use
drop tanks. 2) You need specially constructed ships (ie. ships with
no interior fuel tanks apart from the power plant fuel tankage) to take
advantage of drop tanks (for the purpose of saving money, that is). And
3) Drop tanks are a relatively new invention. Point 1 means the number
of routes where drop tanks can be used commercially is limited; point 2
means it takes time to build up the infrastructure needed to take advantage
of drop tanks; and point 3 means that there haven't been very long time
for that to happen.

The recent discussion did make me have a look at the economics of drop
tank use, and David is right in believing that they will change the
economic possibilities quite a lot, though.

THE ECONOMICS OF DROP TANKS
===========================

I decided to see how much it would add to the price of jump fuel if a
company bought unrefined fuel at the starport, ferried it to a fuel
station at the jump limit and kept a bunch of drop tanks there
permanently. I made a number of assumptions: 1) That drop tanks are
reusable; 2) That the station could sell 240 T of refined fuel per
day on the average; 3) That one 50 T shuttle could move 240 T of fuel
from the surface to the jump limit once per day; and 4) That one 50 T
shuttle was enough to handle the retrieval of all used drop tanks.

The station I designed using QSDS 1.5 was a 1000 T dispersed structure
with 0.1 G maneuver drive, a crew of 6, room for the crew of both
shuttles in addition to the station crew and 10 large staterooms on
top of that, one spacious hangar for a 50 T shuttle, a grapple for
another 50 T shuttle, a vehicle shop, a sick bay, a fuel purifier plant
and 600 T of fuel tankage. The whole thing cost MCr91 (with the 25%
QSDS discount). The two shuttles I put at MCr 28 apiece (taken from the
T4 rulebook).

All in all it turns out that the total yearly expenses, including a
6.25% return on the investment and a double crew, but NOT the cost
of the unrefined fuel, comes to MCr 10,814,400. In that time the
outfit moves 87,600 T of fuel for a per T cost of Cr124. If the
unrefined fuel costs Cr100/T then the company can get their refined
fuel for Cr225/T. But remember, this price assumes that the company
sells almost 90,000 T of fuel each year, which would require, f.ex.
eighty 600 T jump-1 freighters jumping back and forth to the system. 

Anyway, whatever the company pays for fuel on the ground, fuel in
drop tanks cost Cr125/T more, provided that drop tanks are reusable.
(If they are not, the cost is slightly more than Cr1000/T more). If
the freight rate is more than Cr125/T then using drop tank fuel
instead of internal fuel is worthwhile (provided you can fill your
hold with the extra freight, of course).

In the freight costs I worked out some time ago I assumed a cost of Cr300
per T for refined fuel, because that's roughly the price where it becomes
better for a visiting freighter to carry an onboard fuel purifier plant
and buy unrefined fuel and refine it himself. This dosen't apply in the
case of drop tank fuel, because the visitor dosen't have the alternative
of buying unrefined fuel and refining it himself, so you could propably
sell drop tank fuel for somewhat more than the extra Cr125/T (At least if
you have a monopoly). However, if for the sake of simplicity we assume that
the drop tank company also sells its fuel for Cr300/T, we get the following
per T cost for moving freight:

REGULAR FREIGHTER TRAVELLING FROM SURFACE TO SURFACE (35 jumps per year):

          Using internal fuel    Using drop tanks
           1 dT of  1 dT per	1 dT of   1 dt per
           freight   parsec*    freight    parsec*
Jump-1:       840      840        740        740 
Jump-2:     1,170      585        890        495
Jump-3:     1,660      555	1,050        350
Jump-4:     2,400      600      1,220        305
Jump-5:     3,660      735      1,380        280
Jump-6:     6,370    1,065      1,550        260

*Assuming the route never requires a ship to jump short.

[Remember that my basic assumptions don't quite match the official rules;
my freight rates are therefore a bit higher than those you'd get using
the official rules].

Now a Jump-6 ship becomes the cheapest as well as the fastest way of
moving freight long distance.

Also note that even if drop tanks are one use only, they will be worthwhile
for anything higher than jump-1, although the savings for jump-2 traffic
may be too low to be thought worth the initial investment risk.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:22:05 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

Douglas Berry writes:
>>Could Marine combat armour include grav compensators that cancel out the
>>effects of flipping grav plates?  Kind-of like using out-of-phase waves to
>>cancel sound?
> 
>Ooohh.... I like it...  A heavy duty grav belt that senses, and compenstaes
>for the changes.

Makes sense. One thing is for sure, anyway. The fact that the defenders are
able to muck about with the gravity is not going to come as a surprise to
any professional attacker. I might let my players get away with such a ploy
if their opponents are over-optimistic amateurs, but professionals will
anticipate it and have _some_ plan with a decent chance of success of how
to counteract it.

Now, if my players were to secretly install grav plates in a planetside
building they were defending, then I'd let them have their fun. But in
a spaceship? I think not.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:41:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Vision of Future (near future)

Howdy!

Greg Smith brought to our attention:
> For a look at one possibility for the future, look at
> <http://www.skystation.com>  Stratospheric Telecommunications System
> uses balloons and derigibles as the platform instead of satellites.  

As an idea for use in a game, it's something of a hoot. As a practical
concept for implementation in the time frame they tout, I have grave
doubts. Lots of handwaving there.

My father-in-law mentioned them to me; he used to be upper management
at RCA Astro, building satellites (technical type, not marketing) and 
he had stronger things to say that I won't repeat because this is a
family forum...
> 
> ObTrav:  You arrive at a TL 9/10 world Highport.  You plan on taking
> your gig to the surface, or renting an airraft.  The SpA ask if you've
> been there before.  When you answer no, they hand you the rules of the
> road concerning derigible avoidance, and holovids of joyriding
> youngsters crashing into a balloon at an altitude of 22km.....
> 
yours,
Michael


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:46:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: WTB: Twilight's Peak

Howdy!


> Anybody got a copy of Twilight's Peak they don't want anymore?  I went thru my 
> box & found my copy's missing.
> 
> Keven
> 
I have a copy that I still want, but I'd be willing to photocopy it, 
assuming that this is OK with whomever has to be OK with it. I seem to
recall a remark recently that claimed that Marc Miller had no objection
to doing this, but I am not going to forge ahead on that slim a 
recollection.

yours,
Michael


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:08:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

In mail you write:

>> For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to *pump*
>> fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.
>
> For the sort of flow rate jump drives need, drop tanks would rupture
> at the seals, pipe OR hose.  If you presuppose that drop tanks work
> in the manner described (as opposed to the more reasonable, refill
> your internals/eject/jump method) then sufficient hoses can reduce
> the individual flow rates to the point that they can hold the
> pressure.

Seems like an awful lot of hose connections...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:10:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

In mail you write:

>>Trisen wrote
>>No matter how good your tech is, its hard to see how you can  get
>>more than  100%  efficiency.  Leonard's  "25 nanowatts per square
>>meter" number is at 100% efficiency (he  quotes  TL  7/8  at  80%
>>efficiency).
>>
> Thats 100% efficiency for what we make them out of today.

No. Efficiency has *nothing* to do with how a device is made. It's a
measure of the ration between the energy that is *potentially*
available, and the energy you actually *get*. 

100% efficiency means that they would be converting *all* the avialable
energy to electricity. That's all there is. Period. Anything better
would be *creating* energy out of *nothing*. That's not allowed.  Not
even 5000 years from now.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:43:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

In mail you write:

> At 07:59 AM 21/04/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>>With a decent sized satellite that close, seismic activity is on the rise.
>>Tides become very important.  The scenario has the players going to pick up
>>a team that is threatened by increasing seismic events, and being caught up
>>in a flood basalt.  (A massive volcanic event that literally floods
>>hundreds of sq. km with lava in seconds.  A flood basalt is why eastern
>>Washington looks the was it does.)
>
> What does eastern Washington look like?

Mile after mile of scrub growing on top of columnar basalt and other
basalt formations. Pretty flat overall, but anyplace the *thin*
covering of dirt has been eroded away, the underlying rock (hundreds of
feet thick) shows.

Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
wind or water activity deposit it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 02:45:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

In mail you write:

> On 04/20/98 at 06:48 PM,  trisen@postmaster.co.uk said:
>
>>I was thinking about something similar ... what about a dead star (red
>>dwarf star that faded out) capturing some loose  snow  balls and forming a
>>dark matter system.  Unfortunatly, this would still have been detected by
>>interstellar densitometer  scan.  So  there couldn't be a dark system
>>within the Imperium ... not unless some scout working on the IGS got
>>sloppy ;-).
>
> Interesting point.  What is the range of a densitometer?  Interstellar? 

More to the point, IR astronomy from space based observatories would
have spotted it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:54:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Recommended Books

In mail you write:

> TNE'rs and Hard Times fans might wan't to check out "Saturn Rukh" by Robert
> Forward.  It's about setting up a fuel processing plant in Saturn's upper
> atmosphere.

Some of Hal Clement's short stories can give you interesting Ideas. I'm
re-reading an old collection ("Space Lash" also released as "Small
Changes") and one story "Uncommon Sense" struck me as a lovly Traveller
type adventure. Alas, most players wouldn't figure out the puzzle.
Others have decent adventure ideas or backgrounds for adventures.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 03:04:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

In mail you write:

>>Slight problem. Solar panels output depends *directly* on the amount of
>>light shining on them. If you've jumped into an "empty" hex, that light
>>is too feeble to power much of anything.
>>Now, at 200,000 AU the energy is 1/40,000,000,000th as strong. So you'd
>>have 25 *nano*watts per square meter. (25e-9). So to get 1 kW, you'd
>>need a 200 km square array of solar cells at 100% efficiency.
>>
>>That's why probes going out past Mars don't use solar cells, but rely
>>on RTGs instead.
>
> Hhhhmmm, GOOD point Leonard.  I actually agree with you but I would like to
> make this point; your numbers are the result you get at TL 7/8.  What would
> it be at TL 11/12 or better yet TL 15? 

I said it'd take a 200 km square to produce 1 kW at *100% efficiency*.
That's not TL 7-8, or even TL 15. That's the absolute maximum amount
*possible*. Remember, all a solar panel does is convert the light
falling upon it into energy. There's damn little light a parsec from a
normal star.

> This is after all "Traveler" the role playing game and a
> lot of players work very hard to get their characters up to speed.  Why
> should I kill them off because of 2 or 3 bad die rolls when its just as easy
> to think a problem through and come up with a reasonable hypothesis for a
> time 5000 years in the future.  I believe I can do it and stay within cannon
> and physics for the most part.

Sorry, but physics says that you *can't* do it by using solar power,
because there's just plain *not* enough light. It's darker than the
darkest night you've ever seen. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:50:12 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: PbEM ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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If you really want all these things, contact our CEO and Founder, Jim A.
Clem, at the e-mail address below.  

Still not sure, visit our web site at the URL below for more details.

Thank you 



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #422
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 423



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Design Request TL13-15 Burrowing Vehicle
RE: Grav Plates
Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Fuel Flow Rates (Was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
OT: Help DOS 4.0
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Adventures during wartime
Boston drivers
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: suggested reading
Re: Auction?
RE: Auction?
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Drop tanks 
Re: suggested reading
Re: Drop tanks 
IMTU Code; Traveller Alexandria Project; etc.
Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Yeah, well back where I used to drive....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:56:59 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>If the energy density is high enough they'll make good batteries, though.
>If it's really high they could make a power plant, too. After all a power
>plant and fuel are basically just like a battery.

No, its more like making energy out of air pressure. They've made two
plates measureably approach each other thus generating a force that could
be converted into energy but they've failed to account for the extra energy
required to put them into the original position. Sort of like creating
energy out of rubber bands.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:58:54 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>Assuming you're talking about the d6 d6's misjump, you could bypass that rule
>and just roll directions until they intersect another system.  That makes
>misjumps in the mains very safe and short (one parsec) while misjumps out in
>the boonies could be very far indeed. Either way, they'd end up in a system.
>This system may not have a means of refueling though...

All (nearly) systems have means of refuelling. Oort cloud, comets etc. It
is hard to generate a starsystem without any planet/moon that has water or
ice.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:04:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Design Request TL13-15 Burrowing Vehicle

>One of my players speculated about an armored military vehicle which could
>be used as a tank in situations where the signature of the vehicle would
>make it easy to spot from orbit.  I said "I'll look into it and see if
>there are any rules for burrowing vehicles.

As in all cases regarding weird vehicle designs I refer to GURPS Vehicles
2ed where you can find data on burrowing equipment at variousd TLs as well
as "Cinematic" variants that burrow really quick like in the awful Total
Recall movie (great story, awful movie).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:57:31 -0400
From: John Toth <jtoth@erols.com>
Subject: RE: Grav Plates

Who says you have to use the Front door?

Demo an hole in the engine room, and to cockpit.


John

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:02:03 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

At 10:41 PM 4/21/98 -0400, you wrote:

>    When the U.S. authorized a fifth star to certain officers toward the end
>of WWII the titles were "General of the Armies" and "Admiral of the Fleets".
>There were five Army and three Navy.  Marines had none because they were
>after all only a Corps (normally a three star position) in size.  The Air
>Force was part of the Army, "The Army Air Corps" until 1947 so they didn't
>have one either.

The actual title was General of the Army, and Gen Omar Bradley was the last
man to hold the rank.  When he donated his field lacket to the Infantry
museum at Ft. Benning, there was a small stir when somebody realized that
the rank was missing.  Gen Bradley removed the rank from his own uniform
and pinned them to the jacket, remarking that anybody who couldn't figure
who he was should be discharged anyway.

The IM is a neat place.. among otherthings, they have Sgt. York's M-1903
Springfield and Medal of Honor.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 10:20:45 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Fuel Flow Rates (Was Re: Drop Tanks)

Leonard Erickson posted:

>>> For the sort of flow rate jump drives seem to need, you have to
*pump*
>>> fuel at *high* pressure. So only a *pipe* will do.
>>
>> For the sort of flow rate jump drives need, drop tanks would rupture
>> at the seals, pipe OR hose.  If you presuppose that drop tanks work
>> in the manner described (as opposed to the more reasonable, refill
>> your internals/eject/jump method) then sufficient hoses can reduce
>> the individual flow rates to the point that they can hold the
>> pressure.
>
>Seems like an awful lot of hose connections...

For anyone who wants to figure flow rate, I believe the formula is:

        Amount of fuel moved = pi * r^2 * Fuel Flow Speed

Fuel Flow Speed is dependent on the output of the pump(s) moving
the fuel.

Anyone running PCs through the Secret of the Ancients adventure
may need this formula soon afterwards if your players are really
thoughtful. Heh heh. My GM at the time did (the poor sap).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:35:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>Sorry, but physics says that you *can't* do it by using solar power,
>because there's just plain *not* enough light. It's darker than the
>darkest night you've ever seen.

I agree on the physics part of course but don't depict deep space as
especially dark. It is as dark as your average compleately cloudless nights
far from citylights. The stars are shining in deep space as well.
Does anybody have a figure about the amount of light (relative to the sun
at 1AU) you'll get from starlight?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:31:56 +0000
From: suzd@pop.goodnet.com
Subject: OT: Help DOS 4.0

I apologize for the off topic plea for help, but...

I'm trying to help a friend with an ancient laptop running DOS 4.0. 
The autoexec.bat file (unchanged since 1985) is producing an error 
message referencing an invalid switch. The line in question is 
telling the machine where LPT1 is and the machine won't, obviously, 
print.

Any clues? 

Thanks in advance...

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:12:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
> You can calculate the AEMS signature of a snowball yourself using its
> surface area and my sensor rules or FFS2. AEMS is actually competetive
> with the nuke flashlight approach - running an AEMS for a month puts out
> 10^13 joules, after all, nicely formatted at narrow bands your AEMS can
> pick out easily.

In fact, it's probably better.  Unfortunately, the average distance to said
snowball is probably several AU, and given that active sensors are reduced by
the fourth power of range, a scout ship at 1 light-second and a snowball the
size of pluto at one AU are roughly equally bright...
 
> Snowballs will still have some passive signature - they'll equilibriate
> with diffuse starlight to about 11 K, and reflect some of that diffuse
> starlight as well. Somewhere on my project list is doing passive signature
> calculations for such objects - maybe I should move it up the project list
> (currently headed by finishing the beta version of my Military Starship
> Combat System...)

The fun part is spotting that little 11K chunk of ice out of the 10^8 or so
objects of similar or greater brightness...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:34:04 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

> From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>

> At 01:48 PM 4/21/98 , Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> >Why "must" there be a way to survive misjump?  There are a lot of things
> >over which you have no control, and some of them will sometimes kill you
 
> For the same reason that accidents during character creation should not be
> fatal.  It's not fun to play.  We're not attempting to simulate real life
> here, we're trying to tell stories.  Can you imagine if at some point
> during an  SF novel the author jumped the characters, hope, dreams and
> goals unfulfilled, into an empty region of space and killed them?  I'd feel
> dissatisfied...

Of course you would.  That's exactly why the player characters should be
careful not to get into situations in which they misjump -- because
there is a significant and real danger that the campaign will end right
then (or in the next few sessions as their life support gets used up and
they have to decide who gets to keep breathing).  I think that it makes
for more satisfying interactive story telling if the player characters
have to weigh the odds just like they would in real life -- and if they
know that if they're wrong, it's over.  

There are big differences between role playing games and a novels.  A
novel is executed by one person (usually) and presented to an audience
as a completed thing.  A role-playing game is performed by several
people (at least two) for themselves as audience.  An RPG is not a
completed thing; it's ongoing for as long as everyone wants it to
continue.  

These differences mean that satisfaction is reached differently by the
participants.  The audience of a novel is satisfied if the characters
have conflicts and reach resolution of them.  (I leave to published
authors to say what satisfied them.)  The participants in an RPG are
satisfied, in part, by taking real risks that would not be presented to
them in normal life.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:44:23 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime

> >> I'm running a CT campaign in which the fifth frontier  
> war is just about to start.  Now I want the PC's to be  
> involved and I haven't run many  adventures set in a war.  
> Does anyone have any idea for things that a small  group of 
> reasonably talented people (ie the PCs)  might be 
> reasonably expected to do?   <<

There are all sorts of possibilities.  They (possibly with their ship)
could be pressed into service by the wrong side, for example.  They
could smuggle rationed items from the Imperial interior to the civilian
populations in the war zone (this lets you exercise your imagination
about what things will run out and be desireable -- what's the 56th
Century equivalent of cigarettes?).  They could be journalists covering
the war behind enemy lines but being solicited to provide coverage
favorable to that side (like the CNN guys in Iraq during the Gulf War).  

They could be mercenaries hired to do dirty jobs under cover of war --
like whacking Oberlindes sr. at the behest of Tukera lines.  Tukera
wouldn't dare do that during peacetime (even in a registered trade war;
see The Traveller Adventure (or is it The Traveller Book?), but if
looked like the Vargr did it as they swept through the coreward part of
Regina subsector, who wouldn't accept it at face value?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:49:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Boston drivers

> At 05:07 PM 4/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >>Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
> >>drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I

No, Swedish drivers are much worse.  They're much faster, less
competent, and more reckless.  
 
> Don't forget the one-way-street mazes...  Unlike anything I've seen elsewhere!

On the other hand, the streets are generally much easier to navigate in
Sweden (even in medieval cities like Lund and old Stockholm).  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:13:07 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
> Of course you would.  That's exactly why the player characters should be
> careful not to get into situations in which they misjump -- because
> there is a significant and real danger that the campaign will end right
> then (or in the next few sessions as their life support gets used up and
> they have to decide who gets to keep breathing).  I think that it makes
> for more satisfying interactive story telling if the player characters
> have to weigh the odds just like they would in real life -- and if they
> know that if they're wrong, it's over.  

Keep in mind, though ,that this is a game, not real life, and so the risks
aren't "real."  The point of the game is to have fun and if having the whole
party die off because of a misjump isn't fun, then the GM shouldn't
let it happen.

> There are big differences between role playing games and a novels.  A
> novel is executed by one person (usually) and presented to an audience
> as a completed thing.  A role-playing game is performed by several
> people (at least two) for themselves as audience.  An RPG is not a
> completed thing; it's ongoing for as long as everyone wants it to
> continue.  

Right... and if everyone wants it to continue in spite of a misjump, then
it should continue.  The GM can take the opportunity to change the direction
of the game and/or make other things happen as a result of the misjump,
but if the whole party would be upset if the crew died, then the GM risks
spoiling everyone's fun and losing his players.  Of course, the GM should
make it clear how much of a hard ass he is at the outset so the players
understand what the results of this kind of thing will be.  The one GM
I've played with who was a real stickler for "what happens happens" isn't
in my gaming group anymore... everyone else is somewhat flexible.

> These differences mean that satisfaction is reached differently by the
> participants.  The audience of a novel is satisfied if the characters
> have conflicts and reach resolution of them.  (I leave to published
> authors to say what satisfied them.)  The participants in an RPG are
> satisfied, in part, by taking real risks that would not be presented to
> them in normal life.  

This may be what satisfies *you* but isn't necessarily what satisfies
everyone.  This does show how important it is that everyone in the group
know how the game is going to be played and what everyone is trying to
get out of it.  If most of the group prefers that whatever the dice show
is final, then someone who prefers not to have characters get killed
ordinarily, might not want to play with this group.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:54:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: suggested reading

At 01:21 PM 4/21/98 -0400, Rob Prior wrote:
>bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>>And I've been thinking about FFS2 rules for the Voidhawks (biological
>>starships...)

>I love you, and I want to bear your... <ahem>  

You HAVE been reading the Hamilton books.

Just finished the fourth, of six, as I understand it, and am now waiting
impatiently for the final volume.  I am VERY curious about how he is going
to end this gracefully.

FWIW, this has become a good source of TravGrist for me.  The ships at
least feel somewhat Travellerish, and the space battles are comprehensible,
if a bit short ranged.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 09:57:33 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Auction?

At 10:44 AM 4/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>As for auctioning Traveller stuff, as long as the you don't flood the list
>>with updates, go for it.  The best way would be to do a quicky webpage with
>>all the details and run the auction from there.

>That would be the easiest route; however, I do not have the facilities to
>generate a web page of my very own.  Maybe I could post a general list to
>TML once a week, and update people who have actually made bids privately &
>daily.

Please - do not post about your auction AFTER it has begun.  I have no
objection to an opening post listing books and minimum bids, but once you
have responses, could you please please please keep it via private email.
In point of fact, I like to see the opening posts, since they may contain
something I am looking for, but I tire of repetitions.

Scott

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:05:25 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Auction?

>
>Please - do not post about your auction AFTER it has begun.  I have no
>objection to an opening post listing books and minimum bids, but once you
>have responses, could you please please please keep it via private email.
>In point of fact, I like to see the opening posts, since they may contain
>something I am looking for, but I tire of repetitions.
>
>Scott
>

I personally don't think a WEEKLY posting is terribly
"repetitious"--especially if it is of limited duration (2 or three weeks).
Also, if I only posted once, people who join the list later, or who somehow
missed the first posting, will miss out.

Besides, there's always that little "Delete" key . . . God knows I've used
it enough with this interminable "Misjump: Can a GM actually SAVE the
characters?" thread.

'Tis a moot point, anyway: I have decided not to sell at this time.  It's
taken me YEARS to assemble what I've got, and I'm holding out for GURPS
Traveller.  :)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:09:40 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>> >Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>> >
>> >> >With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>
>[snip]
>
>> Running campaigns.  After any dry years, I finally have (again) a regular
>> campaign night with regular players and highly irregular characters to
>> knock about some.
>
>Wish I wasn't finishing law school, or I'd beg to join in.  Even though I just
>finished my last class of law school, papers, exams and bar review will
>keep me
>busy for months to come.  :-(

I should say so...there is no need for a dedicated appearance though.  If
you feel that you are able, there's always the possibility of jumping in
for two - three weeks and play either an NPC who is a regular, or an NPC
critical to the plot of an adventure specific to that series of sessions.

I'd need a couple of weeks to set it up, and we pretty reliably play every
Thursday night.  Let me know.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 00:01:21 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:

>You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.  That's what
>gives
>you the energy to form it.  That's what gets stored in the Zochai crystals.
>If you could form it *WITHOUT* burning the fuel, then why bother burning the
>fuel?

FFS2 is quite explict and states that hydrogen is used from a surge tank in
the jumpdrive to sustain the jump bubble, in addition to being burned for
fuel/power.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 11:14:39 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: suggested reading

Scott Ellsworth wrote:
> 
> At 01:21 PM 4/21/98 -0400, Rob Prior wrote:
> >bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
> >>And I've been thinking about FFS2 rules for the Voidhawks (biological
> >>starships...)
> 
> >I love you, and I want to bear your... <ahem>
> 
> You HAVE been reading the Hamilton books.
> 
> Just finished the fourth, of six, as I understand it, and am now waiting
> impatiently for the final volume.  I am VERY curious about how he is going
> to end this gracefully.
> 
> FWIW, this has become a good source of TravGrist for me.  The ships at
> least feel somewhat Travellerish, and the space battles are comprehensible,
> if a bit short ranged.
> 
> Scott
> Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
> "When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment
> results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
> "The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

I have been enjoying the 'Mageworlds' series by Debra Doyle and James McDonald. 
If you take the 'magic' and consider it as 'Psionics' - it's actually fairly
Travellereque...well, kinda!  :)

Good story tho'...

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:06:17 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

> "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
> 
> >You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.  That's what
> >gives
> >you the energy to form it.  That's what gets stored in the Zochai crystals.
> >If you could form it *WITHOUT* burning the fuel, then why bother burning the
> >fuel?
> 
> FFS2 is quite explict and states that hydrogen is used from a surge tank in
> the jumpdrive to sustain the jump bubble, in addition to being burned for
> fuel/power.

I have zero experience with FFS2.  All mine is with CT/HG & *limited* exposure to MT.  How do they figure out that the hydrogen from the surge tank helps keep the bubble open, and what happens if the bubble collapses?

Personally, I *like* the 'burn all the fuel' model.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 1998 16:26 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: IMTU Code; Traveller Alexandria Project; etc.

Howdy all.

My Traveller web pages are officially up.  They contain such
material as:

	The Traveller Alexandria Project (TAP)
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/TAP/index.html>

	Minor Corporations List
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Corporation/minorCorps.html>

	The IMTU code
	Coming Soon!  It will probably be at:
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/IMTU.html>

	QSDS ver. 1.5, broken into digestible chunks!
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Ship/Design/index.html>

	Starport trade calculator (JavaScript)
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Starport/starporttrade2.html>

	Pocket Empires GWP calculator (JavaScript)
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Worlds/PocketEmpires.html>

	Rob's Ship Design Script (JavaScript)
	TL12 ship design... soon to be corrected!  It is at:
	<http://metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Ship/Design/RSDS.html>

...and lots of clippings from the TML.  Enjoy!

Please check out the Traveller Alexandria Project and send me
info about your Traveller web pages!

Thanks,
Rob

------------------------------

Date: 22 Apr 1998 16:40 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns

Alright boys and girls, now that I've got a webpage it's time
once again for a census of Active Traveller Campaigns (ATC).

If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
with this format:

Location:
Founding date:
Group size:
Number of referees:
Health:
Predominant rules system:
Campaign location:
Campaign time:
E-mail contact:

Please keep the tag field names above, as it will let me process
the data automatically.

Rob

P.S. I should add "drop tanks" to the IMTU code, shouldn't I?

- --

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:28:34 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>my original direction.  I didn't want to leave my PC's stranded in total
>desolation with nothing to look forward to but death.  How would we get out
>of this predicament if we found ourselves in it.  I felt that the simplest
>solution would be to find a quick and dirty answer to keep the game moving.

>There certainly must be a way to survive the experience and I would like
>several options if possible.  I am asking too much?

Maybe the simplest way for your PCs to survive is to not be a slave
to the dice roll. I have had groups that misjump out into deep space
but only as part of an adventure that I was creating. Never have I 
allowed a roll on a table to dictate that I have to screw over my players,
and they have appreciated that. Referee's fiat is always the best
guard against the excesses of rules systems. There is always so
many other things that can happen in a misjump that stranding them
out in the vast deadly unknown does not have to be part of it.

Now then again, I have also had a couple of these happen (once
by sabotage and once by sloppiness on the part of my players) so
that if needed I could probably wing a situation to a degree, but I
still feel that these are "campaign altering" events (at least to the
players' viewpoint <g>) and should not be left to random chance.
It would be like having a random chart to roll up yearly events in the
3I and having entries like "3) The Emperor's Clone is killed and
everyone thinks that it is him," or "7) A silicon-based lifeform gets
loose and destroys civilization as we know it." Not the kind of 
things I want left to random chance.

Now, my players also know that if they abuse my  feelings about
random chance they die. The one time that they decided to do
a jump from slightly above the lowport in order to escape from 
customs they were given a choice: rewind the tape and recon-
sider their actions, or roll 'em up new ones <g>.

**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:45:00 -0400
From: "Paul D. Owensby" <pauld@athens.net>
Subject: Yeah, well back where I used to drive....

.... we didn't have cars, so we had to run around with big metal
bumpers strapped to us to use to ram into each other and carry
bulb horns in our hands to use to honk with. And we did it bare-
foot and in the snow. And it was uphill wherever we went.

IN FACT, it was so bad, that we didn't even HAVE traffic laws,
we had to get up early in the morning every day and invent them
just so that we could break them and have a reason to yell and
gesture at each other!

So do I win now? (<g> Getting just a bit tired of the "oh, yeah,
well where *I* learned to drive...." weenie wave <g>)

Ob Trav: So what kind of stories DO parents tell their children
in the Far Future? "When I was your age, we only had Jump-1
and were damn happy to have it" ? "You kids think you have 
stress? Why, back when I was your age, you could get *killed*
signing up for another term of service!" <g>



**********************************************************
Paul Darius Owensby (pauld@athens.net) UIN: 7353691
ValuJump Lines:"So Economical, You'll Think You're Part of the Crew" (tm)
Pan-Imperia: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Paul_Owensby/
Home of ValuJump Lines, Pan-Imperia Shipyards, and Beginnings for DOS.
IMTU tc+(++) ?tm ?tn t4+ tg>+ ?tt to ru+(-) ge+(--) 3i+ -jt+ au+@ st+ ls@
	kk+ hi++ as+ va- dr+ so zh vi da sy- say++ dol++ ith-- mer ?lu ?su ?ge
	jd pi+@ he+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #423
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 22 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 424



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

brave new world
Reavers Deep
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns 
Uplift
Re: Yeah, well back where I used to drive.... 
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Re: Uplift 
Re: Uplift
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Product Review
Re: Traveller Alexandria Page slowly going on-line
Re: Disaster Stories
Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)
Stand by for boarding
Re: Drop tanks 
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: OT: Help DOS 4.0
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Drop tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 08:50:59 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: brave new world

Bruce types out on his Newton:
>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>    Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.  In a package smaller
>> than your old daytimer, you can, right now, today, have a 3Com PalmPilot
>> and a cell modem hooked up.  That's real time email and web browsing while
>> walking in the park!
>Sniff, sniff...you could have had that, backlighting and a real OS two
>years ago with a Newton 130. Hell, I can get e-mail on my 1994 vintage
>Newton 100.
>(still pissed a Jobs for killing the Newt before I could afford a MP2100)
 
    Nice box the Newton, never hear me knock it.  I people who have stopped
carrying laptops because the Newt did everything they wanted & needed in a
smaller package.  It's a different animal than the PalmPilot.  The Palm was
designed to be minimalist and fit in a shirt pocket.  It doesn't replace my
laptop, it just does some of the functions in a package size I can carry
around.  In game terms, encumbrance 0.  Expect in a couple of years, same
size and wireless.  With anyluck, some third party will come out with Newt
support products.  Limited market though, there was only about 200,000 sold
in five years.
   For portable systems IMTU (palmtops, forearm mounts, etc), I have them
with wireless comm and part of a layered computer system.  If your forearm
system doesn't have the data, it queries up stream (to the system mounted
in the g-carrier, to the ship, etc.)


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:16:37 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Reavers Deep

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> types:
>Cool.  I'm working on the Reaver's Deep sector.  Need more info on it tho... 
>(hint hint)
>My projected timelines will be 1100 & 1200 IY (CT/MT & TNE).  I hope to have 
>map gifs & everything.  No projected completion dates, tho...

   Have you collected the Pocket Empires groupdata yet?  There was a lot of
interesting data that didn't make the Traveller Chronicle either.  Mitch
"Ted7" did a good write up on Kamloops.  



- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Standard Disclaimer
"If you believe the term "militia" means the National Guard then you must
believe that freedom of speech is reserved for the Government Printing
Office." 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:01:22 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns 

> Alright boys and girls, now that I've got a webpage it's time
> once again for a census of Active Traveller Campaigns (ATC).
> 
> If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
> with this format:

PBEM campaigns go along with this?

> P.S. I should add "drop tanks" to the IMTU code, shouldn't I?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:23:26 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Uplift

Not the kind of uplift that takes pre-sentient dolphins or
chimpanzees and makes them fully the mental equals of most humans
(and the mental superiors of some), but the kind of uplift that
starts with Vc Rome and ends with XXIc America.

Pocket Empires doesn't really discuss it in detail - it simply
says that you can do it, and it will cost some amount X and take
some amount of time Y.  But at the lower tech levels, you can
have a pretty wide range of technologies, and in fact you aren't
necessarily at the same technology in all areas.  Not to mention
that there are possibilities for technologies that just weren't
developed or pursued, because something else turned out to be
more efficient, or more politically acceptable, or ... - but the
undeveloped technology could still have been viable, and in
another context, may have been more of a success.

So, let's open a new thread:  You've just landed your free trader
on a planet with a 'native' human race - you're the first
starship they've ever seen (you got here because of a misjump).
Your cargo hold is half-full of all sorts of high-tech chachkes -
the sort of thing that goes through phases of popularity, and
then becomes "<giggle> you _bought_ one of those?" two years
later.  The rest of your cargo is ... a chunk of the AAB
Technical Library.  Don't ask how you got it; it's a rather
embarrassing story, and maybe it's just as well that you
misjumped.

The planet seems to be close to Terran/Sylean norms, and is
biologically compatible with humanity - no need for shugilii
here!  It's balkanized, but not as fragmented as it might have
been; there are only a few small countries, and several large
empires - including a couple that follow the British/Dutch model,
and a couple that follow the Spanish model.  You've been
fortunate enough to land in a British/Dutch empire, and with a
little help from a Hiver TL16 translating computer coupled with
your ship's computer, you've managed to establish communication
with the locals.  They're very insistent that you will help them,
to whatever extent you can, to build starships of their own - and
they understand that it will take years - even decades, possibly
many of them, to be able to do it.  Right now, they're at about
the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.

It's your move...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:28:30 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Yeah, well back where I used to drive.... 

> Ob Trav: So what kind of stories DO parents tell their children
> in the Far Future? "When I was your age, we only had Jump-1
> and were damn happy to have it" ? "You kids think you have 
> stress? Why, back when I was your age, you could get *killed*
> signing up for another term of service!" <g>

ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:30:16 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

>> Snowballs will still have some passive signature - they'll equilibriate
>> with diffuse starlight to about 11 K
>The fun part is spotting that little 11K chunk of ice out of the 10^8 or so
>objects of similar or greater brightness...

I think it should be spectrally fairly distinctive; observations at multiple
wavelengths will give you the object's temperature, and you can look for
water ice and dust bands, too.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:01:09 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation


>The actual title was General of the Army, and Gen Omar Bradley was the last
>man to hold the rank.  When he donated his field lacket to the Infantry
>museum at Ft. Benning, there was a small stir when somebody realized that
>the rank was missing.  Gen Bradley removed the rank from his own uniform
>and pinned them to the jacket, remarking that anybody who couldn't figure
>who he was should be discharged anyway.
>
>Douglas Berry
>
General Bradley's title was General of the Army because he was the "Chairman
of the Joint Chief's of Staff".  The reason he was promoted was because when
he was appointed to chairman Gen. MacArhur was still on active duty in Japan
and under orders to go to Korea (1950).  They couldn't have a four star
General in charge of a five star and considering Bradley's record from WWII
it seemed the reasonable thing to do.  The ranks came about because of the
British rank of Field Marshal.  When the U.K decided to promote Monty to FM
then the U.S. jumped in and promoted Generals Marshall, Smith, Eisenhower
and MacArthur.  This was begun in Jan 1945.  Marshall was the Chairman JCOS
at the time and Eisenhower and Smith were in England.  MacArthur was in
Australia running the Pacific campaign.  Admirals Nimitz, King and Halsey
were the navies top dogs.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:05:15 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift 

> Not the kind of uplift that takes pre-sentient dolphins or
> chimpanzees and makes them fully the mental equals of most humans
> (and the mental superiors of some), but the kind of uplift that
> starts with Vc Rome and ends with XXIc America.

You're talking 'bootstrapping', not 'uplifting'.

This will make a helluva great thread I think...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:18:28 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Uplift

anyone got any ideas how to do traditonal Uplift as was done by the Terran
Confederation and it's successor the Solomani Confederation?

and any thing on their genetics programs?

richard

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:22:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

At 12:26 AM 22/04/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 04/22/98 at 06:48 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:
>
>>>Interesting point.  What is the range of a densitometer?  Interstellar?
>
>>I've used 1/r^2 IMTU with the baseline of detecting a shipmass (whatever
>>that is) at somewhat less than the ranges for passives. Bruce (?) pointed
>>out however that the densitometers probably drop off at 1/^3 as they
>>measure tidal forces and then they wouldn't be of much use at interstellar
>>distances.
>
>That's what I thought. I don't think densitometers would be much help
>detecting anything smaller than a planet beyond a million km or so. I
>haven't tried to figure it, though, just "rule of thumbing."

TNE's World Tamer's Handbook says that densitometers are used for detecting
planets within a system. If we assume that detecting Pluto from the other
side of the solar system is good enough we can say that 1 Pluto mass
(5x10^23 kg according to my _old_ science data book) can be detected at
about 1.2x10^13 m. A ship would be detected at (Ms/Mp)^1/3 x 1.2x10^13 m,
assuming that we are detecting tidal forces. For a mass of 1x10^6 kg (about
a Scout's mass) this is about 1.5x10^7 m or 15,000 km, half a BL/BR
starship combat hex. For 1x10^9 kg mass (about 100,000 DT) the range is
about 150,000 km or 3 hexes.

BTW in 2300AD gravitic scanners, which sound like densitometers can detect
stutter warps, and IMO they should be able to detect ships entering or
leaving Jump Space. Would be detecting tidal forces, or would it be
reasonable to say they are detecting the actual attreaction, which would
give them a range proportional to 1/R^2? If so we could detect a Scout
jumping at 5.9x10^10 m or 59,000,000 km, which is nearly 2000 hexes (0.4
AU) and a 100,000 DT ship at 1.9x10^12 m or 6000 LS (about 12 AU). This
would make densitometers very useful for detecting invasion fleets.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:37:08 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 04:56 PM 23/04/98 +0200, Anders Backman wrote:
>>If the energy density is high enough they'll make good batteries, though.
>>If it's really high they could make a power plant, too. After all a power
>>plant and fuel are basically just like a battery.
>
>No, its more like making energy out of air pressure. They've made two
>plates measureably approach each other thus generating a force that could
>be converted into energy but they've failed to account for the extra energy
>required to put them into the original position. Sort of like creating
>energy out of rubber bands.

What I'm saying is that if this can store enough energy per unit volume you
could use it instead of a power plant. You'd just charge it up at the
starport instead of refueling (aside from jump feul, if you use
displacement). That's why I'm saying you could use it as a power plant. A 1
m^3 TL-12 fusion reactor + 0.2 m^3 of fuel produces 2 MW-years of power. If
2.2 m^3 of  TL-12 zero-point energy battery can store a similar amount for
a comparable price and is no less safe, then it's a descent power supply,
and prbably has a very small minimum size. Of course it would be even more
uncanon than Fusion+.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:40:50 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

At 09:12 AM 22/04/98 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>> You can calculate the AEMS signature of a snowball yourself using its
>> surface area and my sensor rules or FFS2. AEMS is actually competetive
>> with the nuke flashlight approach - running an AEMS for a month puts out
>> 10^13 joules, after all, nicely formatted at narrow bands your AEMS can
>> pick out easily.
>
>In fact, it's probably better.  Unfortunately, the average distance to said
>snowball is probably several AU, and given that active sensors are reduced by
>the fourth power of range, a scout ship at 1 light-second and a snowball the
>size of pluto at one AU are roughly equally bright...

I'm curious as to this fourth power thing. I always thought that active
sensors were affected by: 2 x R^2

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:30:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

At 03:43 AM 22/04/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 07:59 AM 21/04/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>
>>>With a decent sized satellite that close, seismic activity is on the rise.
>>>Tides become very important.  The scenario has the players going to pick up
>>>a team that is threatened by increasing seismic events, and being caught up
>>>in a flood basalt.  (A massive volcanic event that literally floods
>>>hundreds of sq. km with lava in seconds.  A flood basalt is why eastern
>>>Washington looks the was it does.)
>>
>> What does eastern Washington look like?
>
>Mile after mile of scrub growing on top of columnar basalt and other
>basalt formations. Pretty flat overall, but anyplace the *thin*
>covering of dirt has been eroded away, the underlying rock (hundreds of
>feet thick) shows.
>
>Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
>lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
>of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
>sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
>wind or water activity deposit it.

Now that would've been truely impressive to see, though one would want to
be a good distance away.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 15:59:25 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Product Review

At 02:19 PM 4/19/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Doug, do you know if text files can be linked to worlds
>and star systems? In other words, can we attach our own
>notes files ala Galactic 2.3? Also, is it possible to
>add symbols in a planetary hex, such as ASCII characters?

You can't directly link text in the programs, but the screens can be
captured and used in other applications (like I'm doing.. converting the
maps to .gifs and using them in html documents.)

There is a mark feature for naming items.
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:02:07 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller Alexandria Page slowly going on-line

At 11:39 AM 4/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
>My Traveller web pages are slowly building.  Useful stuff
>so far includes:
>
>Traveller Alexandria Project
><http://www.metronet.com/~washi/tas/TAP/atrium.html>

Funny you should mention this the very day I tackle my links page....

Speaking of that, If y'all could wander over to:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/travlink.html

and torture test my page, I'd appreciate it.  Besides incorrect/dead links,
I need to hear from people to whom I'm linked to see if my capsule
descriptions are on traget.  Some of them really come out as sounding like
"Mostly Harmless."

thanks!
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:20:28 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

At 10:30 AM 4/23/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 03:43 AM 22/04/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>>Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
>>lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
>>of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
>>sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
>>wind or water activity deposit it.
>
>Now that would've been truely impressive to see, though one would want to
>be a good distance away.

The geologist whose brain I picked over the concept put it this way
(warning:  REALLY gross description ahed!) If a volcano is like a zit, a
flood basalt event would be your entire chin exploding and resculpting your
nose.  By some estimates, the event that happened in the Pacific Northwest
carried enough heat to flash the entire Columbia river to steam.

- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ tn- t4 ?tg+ to(CORPS)++ ru+ ge++ 3i
          jt-- au st+ ls+ pi va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:13:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)

On the stranger side, check out:

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/21/electric.girl/

This woman can apparently affect electrical devices with her presence.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:29:59 -0400
From: Daniel Poulin <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

Still as strong as ever.  I even have more players now (three players
dropped out to be replaced by four).

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

Location: ottawa, ON Canada
Founding date: (sometime in 1997)
Group size: 6
Number of referees: 1
Health: Very strong
Predominant rules system: MegaTraveller 90%, TNE 8%, T4 2%
Campaign location: Spinward Marches
Campaign time: still 1105
E-mail contact: pould@netcom.ca


At 16:40 22/04/98 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>Alright boys and girls, now that I've got a webpage it's time
>once again for a census of Active Traveller Campaigns (ATC).
>
>If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
>with this format:
>
>Location:
>Founding date:
>Group size:
>Number of referees:
>Health:
>Predominant rules system:
>Campaign location:
>Campaign time:
>E-mail contact:
>
>Please keep the tag field names above, as it will let me process
>the data automatically.
>
>Rob
>
>P.S. I should add "drop tanks" to the IMTU code, shouldn't I?
>
>--
>
>IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 17:48:02 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

At 07:36 am 4/21/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mark Urbin wrote:
>
>>    Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.  In a package
smaller
>> than your old daytimer, you can, right now, today, have a 3Com
PalmPilot
>> and a cell modem hooked up.  That's real time email and web
browsing while
>> walking in the park!

	Except I'd still have to carry my daytimer as well, because a
PalmPilot just can't do everything it does as well as it does. Plus,
I probably won't live to see a computer that can read my handwriting,
especially when I'm in a hurry... (I average around 70% recognition)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:35:35
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Stand by for boarding

>Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 13:13:51 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Magnetic boots vs Grav Plates
>
>Thats why you also give your boarders a gravbelt or other similat utility
>to counter the high Gs, the boots are simply there to give the boarders a
>flat surface to walk on so that the changes in gravity dosn't distract
>them in a potensial firefight. For every measure there is an effective
>countermeasure, its just a question of imagination.
>
>Tommy Grav

This is only going to work if the grav belts put out a field at some
distance. If they just push against the current ruling gravity field, then
our Marine is going to sill have to wear the blood rushing from his head
etc, plus his grav belt harness pushing up at a subjective 60 m/s.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 18:58:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

At 12:01 am 4/22/98 +0100, you wrote:
>"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> wrote:
>
>>You *CANNOT* form the jump point *UNTIL* you burn the fuel.  That's what
>>gives
>>you the energy to form it.  That's what gets stored in the Zochai crystals.
>>If you could form it *WITHOUT* burning the fuel, then why bother burning the
>>fuel?
>
>FFS2 is quite explict and states that hydrogen is used from a surge tank in
>the jumpdrive to sustain the jump bubble, in addition to being burned for
>fuel/power.

	I'd be a bit careful about quoting FF&S2--it was never run by Marc
for his blessing, and he's already commented about one possible
interpretation in another with which he disagrees ...

	If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
used for, or how jumpspace worked--basically "Ya gotta dump this much
hydrogen in, ya see, and then push that button, OK, and then you
ain't here no more, no, and then seven days later you're there ...
unless you messed it up, a'course."

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 19:04:11 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

At 10:40 am 4/23/98 +1200, you wrote:
>At 09:12 AM 22/04/98 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>I'm curious as to this fourth power thing. I always thought that
active
>sensors were affected by: 2 x R^2

	Not quite. Your sensor transmits a signal; the signal that reaches
the target has been reduced 1/R^2; it's reflected, and then has to
travel *back* to your sensor--that's another 1/R^2. So 1/R^2 x 1/R^2
comes out to be 1/R^4

	S  = Original Signal
	S' = Signal at Target
	   = S/R^2
	S''= Signal received back at sensor
	   = S'/R^2
	   = (S/R^2) / R^2
	   = S / R^4

	Of course, this neglects the reflectivity of the target, but that's
just a constant factor. So active sensors degrade as the fourth power
of the distance to the target.


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:22:07 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: OT: Help DOS 4.0

Can you give more info?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:12:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

>         If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
> used for, or how jumpspace worked--basically "Ya gotta dump this much
> hydrogen in, ya see, and then push that button, OK, and then you
> ain't here no more, no, and then seven days later you're there ...
> unless you messed it up, a'course."

Hmm... Ignore the man behind the curtain...

Here's the problem with not defining something so prevalent in a game system:
You can't use it as a plot device.  You can't have a "New Experimental" jump
technology without risking setting a bad precident. You can't do anything but
the most general case with it. It squashes the richness of something that is
inherent to the game.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 21:32:36 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:
> >         If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
> > stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
> > used for, or how jumpspace worked--basically "Ya gotta dump this much
> > hydrogen in, ya see, and then push that button, OK, and then you
> > ain't here no more, no, and then seven days later you're there ...
> > unless you messed it up, a'course."
> 
> Hmm... Ignore the man behind the curtain...
> 
> Here's the problem with not defining something so prevalent in a game system:
> You can't use it as a plot device.  You can't have a "New Experimental" jump
> technology without risking setting a bad precident. You can't do anything but
> the most general case with it. It squashes the richness of something that is
> inherent to the game.

Another problem with this approach is that it makes you completely
incapable of jury-rigging something using the jump drive.  What happens
when the players crash on a planet and want to know what they can make
from the jump drive...  Surely you could do something with it given
a source of fuel.  What parts does it break down into?  Having access to
incredibly energy-dense capacitors could be very useful, if that's what
is there...

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #424
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 23 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 425



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Campaign Census
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Reavers Deep
Assorted
Jump details
Andy Slack's Web Site
Ma, the Glacier's Gone
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #424
Re: Andy Slack's Web Site 
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #424 
Re: Uplift
anti-missle systems
RE: Jump details
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: misjump survival
Re: anti-missle systems
Drop Tanks
Re: Disaster Stories
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation
Re: Grav Plates
Re: Uplift
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: Fuel Flow Rates (Was Re: Drop Tanks)
Re: Ma, the Glacier's Gone
Re: Misjumps and return by normal space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:55:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Traveller Campaign Census

(Should probably go to the original poster, but I don't have that post any
 more.  Sorry.)

Location:  Ann Arbor, MI, USA
Founding date:  1989
Group size:  6
Number of referees:  1
Health:  Excellent
Predominant rules system:  MT
Campaign location:  Spinward Marches, generally
Campaign time:  1121 (but no Shattered Imperium)
E-mail contact:  jmsaul@umich.edu

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:26:14 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

At 04:41 PM 4/22/98 -0500, Rob wrote:
>Alright boys and girls, now that I've got a webpage it's time
>once again for a census of Active Traveller Campaigns (ATC).
>
>If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
>with this format:
>

For those of us with ISPs that purge routing info, to whom should we send
this information, i.e., what's yr email address?

Tx!



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:53:40 +1200
From: Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Reavers Deep

What Pocket Empires Group Data Mark?  Don't leave me hanging with teaser posts like
this!!
Could you mail me the data or post the link?

Thanks
Raygun

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 23:59:22 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Assorted

> Uplift: Its your move

Hmmmm first step is plumbing. Then dig "The day the Universe Changed" and
"Connections" out of the video library, and...

hmmmpf...


>The ranks came about because of the
>British rank of Field Marshal.  When the U.K decided to promote Monty to FM
>then the U.S. jumped in and promoted Generals Marshall, Smith, Eisenhower
>and MacArthur.  This was begun in Jan 1945.  Marshall was the Chairman JCOS
>at the time and Eisenhower and Smith were in England.  MacArthur was in
>Australia running the Pacific campaign.  Admirals Nimitz, King and Halsey
>were the navies top dogs.
>Thom

Story has it that the title was originally to be Field Marshal, but Marshall
is said to have vetoed it, saying "Nobody is going to call me Marshal
Marshall!"

LKW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:08:37 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Jump details

Dave said:

> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
> used for, or how jumpspace worked

Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be explained
to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.

LKW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:49:39 EDT
From: Kagehira <Kagehira@aol.com>
Subject: Andy Slack's Web Site

In a message dated 4/22/98 9:27:18 PM Pacific Daylight Time, Kagekiha writes:

<< 
 -----------------
 Forwarded Message: 
 Subj:	 I crave a boon...
 Date:	4/22/98 2:49:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time
 From:	AndySlack@compuserve.com (Andy Slack)
 Sender:	AndySlack@compuserve.com (Andy Slack)
 To:	Kagekiha@aol.com (Kagekiha)
 
 <g> and you did say I could ask...
 
 Could you please forward this to the TML, as I'm still having
 trouble posting...
 
 I've put up a small and simple web page, and the Traveller
 stuff starts at:
 
 http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm
 
 My goal is to post all my old WD articles and some of my house rules
 and handwaves. I'd be interested in any feedback on how it looks,
 what else would be interesting for Traveller activists, etc.
 
 (I already know it could use some pictures.)
 
 Thanx -
 Andy
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:57:56
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Ma, the Glacier's Gone

>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>Subject: Re: Disaster Stories
>
>>Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
>>lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
>>of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
>>sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
>>wind or water activity deposit it.
>
>Now that would've been truely impressive to see, though one would want to
>be a good distance away.

Hmmm. This sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to make a fast
buck by offering tourist packages to the event, especially if someone has
the inside running via the geology team on exactly when the glacier is
going to crack.

Fairbanks, Alaska, also runs a betting pool come meltdown on when a statue
on a tyre is going to fall through the ice on the river ... it usually has
over a hundred thousand in it, with betting at 15 second intervals. You
could fix that real good with a meson gun ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:08:07
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #424

>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Drop tanks
>
>Another problem with this approach is that it makes you completely
>incapable of jury-rigging something using the jump drive.  What happens
>when the players crash on a planet and want to know what they can make
>from the jump drive...  Surely you could do something with it given
>a source of fuel.  What parts does it break down into?  Having access to
>incredibly energy-dense capacitors could be very useful, if that's what
>is there...
>

This is part of the reason some of us like the "jump ballast" theory - if
there are incredible-efficiency capacitors or a higher-efficiency power
plant lurking inside jump drives, why arent they used in other applications ?


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:53:53 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Andy Slack's Web Site 

>  I've put up a small and simple web page, and the Traveller
>  stuff starts at:
>  
>  http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm

COOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  This site has the potential to be the greatest CT site 
on the Web!!!!!!!

>  My goal is to post all my old WD articles and some of my house rules
>  and handwaves. I'd be interested in any feedback on how it looks,
>  what else would be interesting for Traveller activists, etc.

I really loved the few WD articles I read of Andy's.

What I'd *LOVE* to see is a pile more of HG 2nd Ed ships with plans if possible...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:57:33 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #424 

> >Another problem with this approach is that it makes you completely
> >incapable of jury-rigging something using the jump drive.  What happens
> >when the players crash on a planet and want to know what they can make
> >from the jump drive...  Surely you could do something with it given
> >a source of fuel.  What parts does it break down into?  Having access to
> >incredibly energy-dense capacitors could be very useful, if that's what
> >is there...
> >
> 
> This is part of the reason some of us like the "jump ballast" theory - if
> there are incredible-efficiency capacitors or a higher-efficiency power
> plant lurking inside jump drives, why arent they used in other applications ?

IMTU, the Zochai crystal was the power storage behind high energy ship's 
lasers & such, anywhere a quick high energy pulse was needed.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 22:41:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Uplift

...
>with the locals.  They're very insistent that you will help them,
>to whatever extent you can, to build starships of their own - and
>they understand that it will take years - even decades, possibly
>many of them, to be able to do it.  Right now, they're at about
>the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.
>
>It's your move...
>- --

  What's the objective? A quick profit (artwork, etc.), a few
years (fill the hold with gold) or end up owning the planet?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 03:28:53 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: anti-missle systems

Has anyone designed an anti-missle system for the extraordinary missles like
"bubba" and various "brilliant pebble" approaches as well as more conventional
kkms, knowing that a very small laser turret is all that's need for the
conventional kkms...

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:24:44 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Jump details

I rather enjoy the discussions...

- ----------
From: 	GDW GAMES[SMTP:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, April 22, 1998 9:08 PM
To: 	TRAVELLER@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Jump details

Dave said:

> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
> used for, or how jumpspace worked

Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be explained
to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.

LKW

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:17:11 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:12:42 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>

>>As far as drop tanks, they do open up a bad precident (no matter what
>>your theory is).  They introduce the idea that you don't have to
>>carry your fuel with you, and so are only a quarter step away from
>>"jump gates" or "jump stations", which would be a big change in the
>>background.

>You would be right about drop tanks not fitting into the rest of the
>Traveller Universe if it wasn't for several facts: 1) It turns out that
>you need a fairly high turnover in fuel before it is economic to use
>drop tanks. 2) You need specially constructed ships (ie. ships with
>no interior fuel tanks apart from the power plant fuel tankage) to take
>advantage of drop tanks (for the purpose of saving money, that is). And
>3) Drop tanks are a relatively new invention.

Well, once you open up to the idea that ships don't have to
use their own jump fuel, you have a number of problems.  I don't know
how the game economics work out (it doesn't take an overnight trip to
get out to most jump points and back so I don't see the need for
staterooms, etc., nor why you have to haul a shuttle back and forth,
but I haven't gotten into the analysis) but it just doesn't make sense
that having to haul though jump space all that equipment you used to
move the fuel to the jump space and then the fuel itself would be
cheaper.  Also, you have to mandate that nobody ever comes up with a
cheaper way to do it (just us a mass driver from the surface, or just
use shuttles to get it to orbit and then just boost them in a trajectory
that gets them to the refueling point, or you take a huge icy body an
move it in, etc.)  Also, as your own ananlysis points out, higher jump
ships would benefit.  Xboats wouldn't use the system.  So would travel
between specific systems that do a lot of trade (unless they happen to
be right next to each other).  It just opens a can of worms.

Now you can invoke them as a new discovery without changing the
background history, but then you have to go through and have your
setting playout all the ramifications that would spin out from it.
And then you have to decide you like the changes in the feel of the
setting that will result.  I wouldn't say this is for the faint of
heart.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:48:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: misjump survival

Misjumping should be something that even mention of strikes fear
into the hearts of all who travel interstellar space.  Making it
straightforward to survive cheapens it.  If you don't want your
players dying, I would suggest it would be better to limit the
possibility of their misjumping.

If you don't want players getting killed in combat you make
it so they don't get shot, not so that bullets to the brain
are survivable.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:06:39 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: anti-missle systems

At 03:28 AM 23/04/98 EDT, Gary wrote:
>Has anyone designed an anti-missle system for the extraordinary missles like
>"bubba" and various "brilliant pebble" approaches as well as more
conventional
>kkms, knowing that a very small laser turret is all that's need for the
>conventional kkms...

I always liked the idea of using a spinal PAW in the Tera Joule range on
the launh vehicle.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Drop Tanks

Assuming Hans' analysis is right, and I think it is, allowing the use of
no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.

I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal tankage.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:39:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disaster Stories

In mail you write:

> At 10:30 AM 4/23/98 +1200, you wrote:
>>At 03:43 AM 22/04/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>>Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
>>>lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
>>>of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
>>>sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
>>>wind or water activity deposit it.
>>
>>Now that would've been truely impressive to see, though one would want to
>>be a good distance away.
>
> The geologist whose brain I picked over the concept put it this way
> (warning:  REALLY gross description ahed!) If a volcano is like a zit, a
> flood basalt event would be your entire chin exploding and resculpting your
> nose.  By some estimates, the event that happened in the Pacific Northwest
> carried enough heat to flash the entire Columbia river to steam.

There are also *huge* networks of lava tubes in some areas. Craters of
the Moon National Park is best known, but there are others. For example
some folks here in Oregon are using some near Klamath Falls in southern
Oregon to experiment with the possibilities of building a lunar base
inside such tubes if we ever find any on the moon (a not *too* unlikely
possibility). 

For a factual view of such things, check the index to National
Geographic as they did a feature on the park sometime in the last 30 or
so years. For an interesting fictional treatment, try finding a copy of
Andre Norton's "Dark Piper". Lava tubes feature prominently in the
story.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:47:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

In mail you write:

>>Sorry, but physics says that you *can't* do it by using solar power,
>>because there's just plain *not* enough light. It's darker than the
>>darkest night you've ever seen.
>
> I agree on the physics part of course but don't depict deep space as
> especially dark. It is as dark as your average compleately cloudless nights
> far from citylights. The stars are shining in deep space as well.
> Does anybody have a figure about the amount of light (relative to the sun
> at 1AU) you'll get from starlight?

The thing is, even in the middle of the night, at low latitudes, you
get a significant amount of light from "skyglow". The air fluoreces
slightly from radiation, and there's also stuff like the gegenschien
which is light scattered from dust in the solar system. 

So between the stars it *will* be noticeably darker. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 00:50:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced Chargen: High Guard Adaptation

In mail you write:

> it seemed the reasonable thing to do.  The ranks came about because of the
> British rank of Field Marshal.  When the U.K decided to promote Monty to FM
> then the U.S. jumped in and promoted Generals Marshall, Smith, Eisenhower
> and MacArthur.  This was begun in Jan 1945.  Marshall was the Chairman JCOS
> at the time and Eisenhower and Smith were in England.  MacArthur was in
> Australia running the Pacific campaign.  Admirals Nimitz, King and Halsey
> were the navies top dogs.

There's also a story about a discussion over what to call the new rank
"Field Marshall" or make it some sort of General. General Marshall said
he'd be damned if he'd have people calling him "Marshall Marshall". So
they made it a General...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:02:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

In mail you write:

> Who says you have to use the Front door?
>
> Demo an hole in the engine room, and to cockpit.

A hull that can shrug off the sort of weapons damage that a typical
ship's hull can won't even *notice* a demolition charge...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:13:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Uplift

In mail you write:

> The planet seems to be close to Terran/Sylean norms, and is
> biologically compatible with humanity - no need for shugilii
> here!  It's balkanized, but not as fragmented as it might have
> been; there are only a few small countries, and several large
> empires - including a couple that follow the British/Dutch model,
> and a couple that follow the Spanish model.  You've been
> fortunate enough to land in a British/Dutch empire, and with a
> little help from a Hiver TL16 translating computer coupled with
> your ship's computer, you've managed to establish communication
> with the locals.  They're very insistent that you will help them,
> to whatever extent you can, to build starships of their own - and
> they understand that it will take years - even decades, possibly
> many of them, to be able to do it.  Right now, they're at about
> the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.
>
> It's your move...

They'll be most ready for certain types of chemical and metalurgical
engineering projects. Better gunpowder and explosives, early chemical
synthesis, and better steel. Side items would be some electrical
generating capability. 

This allow production of aluminum in medium quantities, suitable for
creating thermite shells for their navy (which ensures the defeat of
any enemy ships in short order. Assuming coal/oil type raw materials
are available, some synthetic fibers are the next step, givng tougher
lighter sails and rigging. 

This also leads into steam engines, internal combustion engines, and
dirigibles. 

BTW, unless forced, by circumstances, we'll skip teaching them how to
produce chemical warfare agents (phosgene and mustard gas are quite
producible at that tech level). 

And so it goes...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:04:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

In mail you write:

> I'm curious as to this fourth power thing. I always thought that active
> sensors were affected by: 2 x R^2

No, you see the signal going out is reduced by the inverse square law.
And then *that* signal is again reduced by inverse square. Which gives
you 1/r^2 * 1/r^2 = 1/r^4.

It doesn't *add* it *multiplies*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:07:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Flow Rates (Was Re: Drop Tanks)

In mail you write:

>>Seems like an awful lot of hose connections...
>
> For anyone who wants to figure flow rate, I believe the formula is:
>
>         Amount of fuel moved = pi * r^2 * Fuel Flow Speed
>
> Fuel Flow Speed is dependent on the output of the pump(s) moving
> the fuel.

Actually, it's:

	Fuel moved = pipe area * velocity
 except that there are a bunch of corrections for things like
frictional drag with the wals of the pipe, viscous drag from the fuel
flowing past itself, etc. For small pipes/hoses the drag is a *major*
factor. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 01:21:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ma, the Glacier's Gone

In mail you write:

>
>>From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
>>Subject: Re: Disaster Stories
>>
>>>Anyplace with *thick* soil is either a sandbar from when the mile deep
>>>lake in Canada broke thru the glacier that was confining it at the end
>>>of the last ice age (Spokane, where I grew up, is built on some of those
>>>sandbars. They are *hundreds* of feet tall!) or else had more recent
>>>wind or water activity deposit it.
>>
>>Now that would've been truely impressive to see, though one would want to
>>be a good distance away.
>
> Hmmm. This sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to make a fast
> buck by offering tourist packages to the event, especially if someone has
> the inside running via the geology team on exactly when the glacier is
> going to crack.

Well, a "long ways away" is an understatement. That flood scoured out a
good chunk of the Columbia River Basin! It dug channels modern
engineers would rather not try to match *after* covering something like
300 miles!

> Fairbanks, Alaska, also runs a betting pool come meltdown on when a statue
> on a tyre is going to fall through the ice on the river ... it usually has
> over a hundred thousand in it, with betting at 15 second intervals. You
> could fix that real good with a meson gun ...

Don't get caught or you'll be following the statue!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:03:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Misjumps and return by normal space

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. writes:
>That's exactly why the player characters should be careful not to get into
>situations in which they misjump -- because there is a significant and real
>danger that the campaign will end right then.

I can't express just how much I disagree with this opinion. IMO players
should be careful not to let their characters get into situations where
they misjump, all right, but not because the campaign may end. Rather,
because it's something their character wouldn't do. That is, because it
would be bad role-playing. If their characters happened to be stupid or
driven by some great need to take great risks, then they should be free
to behave stupidly or be driven to take risks without having to worry
about meta-concerns.

Many players like to portray people who are more heroic than themselves.
But it's hard to be a hero without taking risks. There's really only two
kinds of heroes: One is the real-life heroes who took a lot of chances and
happened to survive  --  only, we seldom think of the hundreds of others
who took the same chances and lost. Real life heroes are usually after-the-
fact. The other kind is the fictional hero who gets away with taking
one-chance-in-a-hundred chances because he has the author on his side.
If you try running a role-playing hero like his real-life counterpart, all
you get is a high turnover in would-be heroes.

Of course, you can't run a RP hero just like a fictional hero either, because
half the fun for a player (half the fun for me, I suppose I should say) lies
in the gaming aspect, that is, in trying to affect the odds in your own
favor. If your character is going to survive anything, or is going to have
the same chance of surviving no matter what he does, a lot of the fun
vanishes. So the style I favor is something in between, but definitely
leaning towards the fictional hero model. I like at least 9 out of 10
chances of surviving my 1 in a 100 chances ;-)

OK, for less than fatal disasters I do favor using more realistic odds...

>These differences mean that satisfaction is reached differently by the
>participants.  The audience of a novel is satisfied if the characters
>have conflicts and reach resolution of them.  (I leave to published
>authors to say what satisfied them.)  The participants in an RPG are
>satisfied, in part, by taking real risks that would not be presented to
>them in normal life.  

Really? Even though they don't survive them very often? I and the players
I know of are satisfied by surviving risks that we would not want to run
in normal life.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"I know there are some people in the world who do not tolerate their
fellow human beings, and I just can't _stand_ people like that!"
                                (after Tom Lehrer)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #425
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 23 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 426



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Boston Drivers
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Andy Slack's Web Site
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design
RE: Jump details
Re: Uplift 
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
RIP - Not the IG WebSite 
Re: Jump Drives
Re: Grav Plates
Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design
Re: Densitomiters
re: anti-missle systems
RE: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Misjumps IMTU

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 22 Apr 1998 17:51:26 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Boston Drivers

"Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> typed:
>> At 05:07 PM 4/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >>Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
>> >>drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
>No, Swedish drivers are much worse.  They're much faster, less
>competent, and more reckless.  
>> Don't forget the one-way-street mazes...  Unlike anything I've seen
elsewhere!

     Hmmm....I had no problems driving in Stockholm and the surrounding
area when I was there.  Perhaps the experince driving in Boston, and
spending a summer driving a van through mid and lower Manhatten helped.

>On the other hand, the streets are generally much easier to navigate in
>Sweden (even in medieval cities like Lund and old Stockholm).  
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Dom Mooney writes:
>FFS2 is quite explict and states that hydrogen is used from a surge tank in
>the jumpdrive to sustain the jump bubble, in addition to being burned for
>fuel/power.

This dosen't solve a thing. In fact, it propably makes matters worse. The
amount of fuel you can store in a surge tank in the jump drive is minuscule
compared to the total amount and also takes away space that could be use for
those pesky high-capacity energy storage thingies. And the big problem with
the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high. Halving  the size of the
capacitors in order to keep 1/10th of the fuel for use during the jump isn't
going to help a whole lot with that, now is it? So long as you accept drop
tanks as part of the canonical background technology, _almost all the
hydrogen must be expended one way or the other before the ship enters jump
space_. Any explanation that fails to take that into account isn't worth a
bent nickel.

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:29:38 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> writes:
> if the whole party would be upset if the crew died, then the GM risks
>spoiling everyone's fun and losing his players. 

True, but then if the players know that they can't die then the game also
loses something.

I used to play D&D with a friend who wouldn't kill a player, no matter how
stupid the mistake. It rather took the challenge out. I mean, why bother
to be clever when being stupid gets you the same result in the end?

I suspect that this is a matter of local taste. 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:57:43 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

David P. Summers writes:

>Well, once you open up to the idea that ships don't have to use their own
>jump fuel, you have a number of problems.

We have a number of ramifications. If those ramifications lead to a
contradiction in the game background, then we have a problem. We seem
to agree about the ramifications (drop tanks will revolutionize star
travel), but not that those ramifications constitute a problem. Hey,
whaddya know, we finally got us a disagreement that I agree is just
a matter of opinion! Yay! ;-)

>I don't know how the game economics work out (it doesn't take an overnight
>trip to get out to most jump points and back so I don't see the need for
>staterooms, etc., nor why you have to haul a shuttle back and forth,

You may well be right. I just wanted a ballpark figure. I did consider just
letting the planetside shuttle accelerate the fuel towards the jump station
and have the station shuttle catch them, but I was up against a lot of
undefined factors (how much time does it take the station shuttle to retrieve
a set of dropped drop tanks? Is the station shuttle also involved in fitting
the drop tanks onto the customers? How much time does that take? Will the
shuttles need downtime for maintenance?) In the end I allowed one shuttle for
handling an average of 8 30 T drop tanks per day without any downtime and
another to ferry 240 T of fuel from ground to jump limit per day, also
without any downtime (Well, not if its a size A planet, anyway. For smaller
planets there will be some time on the ground). Anyway, I could as easily
make a case for three or four shuttles being necessary. As for the fuel
station, it gets a 25% discount for being a standard design. I therefore
gave it a few features that would allow it to serve as a between systems
fuel station too. The staterooms are really the least of its cost.

>[...] Also, you have to mandate that nobody ever comes up with a cheaper
>way to do it (just us a mass driver from the surface, or just use shuttles
>to get it to orbit and then just boost them in a trajectory that gets them
>to the refueling point, or you take a huge icy body an move it in, etc.)

It dosen't really matter all that much. By my analysis the added cost of
drop tank fuel is +125 credits. You may be able to figure out ways to get
that down to +100 or +75 or even just +10. It won't make that much difference.

>Also, as your own ananlysis points out, higher jump ships would benefit.
>Xboats wouldn't use the system.  So would travel between specific systems
>that do a lot of trade (unless they happen to be right next to each other). 

Absolutely. I agree. I just don't think it is a problem.

>It just opens a can of worms.

What worms? As long as we don't have to retrofit it into a background where
it ought to be but isn't, what's the problem? For future post-1100 adventures
we just need to keep in mind that this sort of alternative exists in some
places and include it where appropiate.
 
>Now you can invoke them as a new discovery without changing the background
>history,

Exactly.

>but then you have to go through and have your setting playout all the
>ramifications that would spin out from it.

Agreed, but why is that a problem?

>And then you have to decide you like the changes in the feel of the
>setting that will result.

Why is this different from having to decide if you like the Rebellion or
the Hard Times or the Virus or the Reformation Coalition or any other
historical chance in the Traveller background?

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>Assuming Hans' analysis is right, and I think it is, allowing the use of
>no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.

Yes, in some places and in a limited time span.
 
>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal tankage.

I really don't see the need. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:56:06 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Andy Slack's Web Site

Very nice.  I'm running T4, but I'm sure I'll be visiting for info.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:36:33 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:29:38 -0400 Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
writes:
>Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> writes:
>> if the whole party would be upset if the crew died, then the GM 
>risks
>>spoiling everyone's fun and losing his players. 
>
>True, but then if the players know that they can't die then the game 
>also
>loses something.
>

Absolutely.  I generally allow players to die under very certain
conditions.  One is the blatantly stoooopid move, especially after I've
given several warnings as to the danger involved.  The other is when a
player does something truly, but fatally, heroic, such as re-setting the
reactor control rods _By_Hand_ to allow the rest of the group to escape. 
He knows he's gonna get vaporized when the reactor finally blows, but it
the kind of end players like (and myself as well).


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:40:11 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
> with this format:
>
> Location:     Calgary, Alberta, Canada
> Founding date:    1992
> Group size:    7
> Number of referees:     1
> Health:    good
> Predominant rules system:    MegaTraveller
> Campaign location:    Spinward Marches
> Campaign time:    1107
> E-mail contact:    efritz@GLJA.com
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:50:50 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design

Yo Folks,
     I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).
Designing a ship at a lower tech level has the added advantage in that it
is inherantly cheaper (5% per TL) because of currency devaluation.
     Now this got me thinking along other lines. In MT ship design, crew
requirements are, pretty much, directly related to the cost of the
subsystem you are crewing. So, for example, the number of engineers is
equal to the cost of the Power and Locomotion subsystems, divided by the
computer multiple, divided by 400. Of course this is assuming an invariant
credit. Would it make sense to apply exchange rate to this?
     For example, a Laser Turret is, basically, the same at TL13 and TL15.
If the above was used then it would be saying that the TL13 version of the
laser required less people/computers to operate than the TL15 version. This
kind of fits in with other assumptions in the system. For example, the
number of control points you need to cover is _multiplied_ by the TL,
indicating that higher tech devices need more computer controls. But, that
might also be an argument saying this is already accounted for.
     Opinions? [other than Advocacy arguments]
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:54:25 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Jump details

Loren posted:
>
>Dave said:
>
>> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
>> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
>> used for, or how jumpspace worked
>
>Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be
>explained to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation
>to me.

I have to disagree with you on this one, Loren.

When a GM ran my buds and me through Secrets of the Ancients
back in college, we eventually figured how to use the Portals to
build a ship that stored everything but the powerplant, M-drive,
J-drive, ship controls, and weapons in the attached pocket
universe, resulting in a small ship that could blow a hole through
a 5000dton Midu. The ref didn't have much detail on *exactly* how
the portals worked or what the star system in the pocket universe
was like so he forced us to work it out.

We had a *great* time over about 3 months figuring out the details
that should have been provided on the portals andwe really
enjoyed developing the planet and...uh...we had a blast deciding
how the portals could affect the ship design...um....er..

Hmmm...

Never mind.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:00:53 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift 

> ...
> >with the locals.  They're very insistent that you will help them,
> >to whatever extent you can, to build starships of their own - and
> >they understand that it will take years - even decades, possibly
> >many of them, to be able to do it.  Right now, they're at about
> >the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.
> >
> >It's your move...
> >- --
> 
>   What's the objective? A quick profit (artwork, etc.), a few
> years (fill the hold with gold) or end up owning the planet?
> 

Depends on your era.  If you're doing a PE, the locals might make good low 
tech cannon fodder for your next conquest...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 07:01:33 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 08:29 AM 4/23/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I used to play D&D with a friend who wouldn't kill a player, no matter how
>stupid the mistake.                                  ^^^^^^

I try to avoid killing players, as the bodies are difficult to dispose of,
and after the first few the word gets out and nobody will game with you.

Sorry, I'm still waking up here.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ tn- t4 ?tg+ to(CORPS)++ ru+ ge++ 3i
          jt-- au st+ ls+ pi va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:15:27 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RIP - Not the IG WebSite 

Sophonts:

Unfortunately, due to my relocation, the Not the IG WebSite will be
going away for a while.  After I move, and find another provider, I will
attempt to ressurect it.

Keep Travelling!

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
 "...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:25:29 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

Loren said:

>Dave said:
>
>> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
>> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
>> used for, or how jumpspace worked
>
>Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be explained
>to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.

I agree completely. Its a simple fact that since this is a science _fiction_
game, there are some high-tech items that we simply can't explain. Jump
Drive. Anti Grav. Black Globes.  etc.

Every attempt that I've seen to quantify these items turns into a debate,
becuase everyone has their own feelings on the matter. So rather than
pissing people off, the game itself such just take these items for granted.
Much less painful that way.

Now on the TML, these things can (and should) be discussed for individuals
to use in their own Traveller universe. But it should not be game canon.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:27:48 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Grav Plates

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Who says you have to use the Front door?
> >
> > Demo an hole in the engine room, and to cockpit.
> 
> A hull that can shrug off the sort of weapons damage that a typical
> ship's hull can won't even *notice* a demolition charge...

If you can get close to the ship, you'll want to use some kind of
laser or plasma cutter and a small pressurized envorinment bubble
sealed over the hole so the plug you cut out won't blow out.  You
might want to remove the bubble after you make the hole, though...
Depends on how you want to take the ship.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:28 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns

Thanks for the response so far... I have 5 replies already.

There is a replacement fields you can fill out:

Instead of "Campaign Time:", you may substitute "Milieu:".

Thanks,
Rob

- --

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:38:15 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Rob Prior wrote:
> Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> writes:
> > if the whole party would be upset if the crew died, then the GM risks
> >spoiling everyone's fun and losing his players. 
> 
> True, but then if the players know that they can't die then the game also
> loses something.

I didn't say that the players shouldn't ever be killed off... just that it
shouldn't be arbitrary and wiping out the whole group is a bit extreme.
Characters should generally die when trying something really stupid or
really heroic against all odds.

> I used to play D&D with a friend who wouldn't kill a player, no matter how
> stupid the mistake. It rather took the challenge out. I mean, why bother
> to be clever when being stupid gets you the same result in the end?

Just because the players don't die doesn't mean they get teh same result.
I certainly wouldn't allow players who screw up to get as much or as far
as players who succeed brilliantly.  If I had a group screw up and misjump,
I'd make it hard for them to get back and it would cost... they'd be back,
but behind where they were.

> I suspect that this is a matter of local taste. 
 
Gaming style is almost by definition a matter of taste...  there is
no right and wrong, only what's fun for everyone.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: 23 Apr 1998 10:59 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns

Send your data to: eaglesto@nortel.com

Location:
Founding date:
Group size:
Number of referees:
Health:
Predominant rules system:
Campaign location:
Campaign time:
E-mail contact:

(if you prefer, you may substitute "Milieu:" for "Campaign time:").

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 10:28:43 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design

At 02:50 PM 4/23/98 +0100, Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
>Yo Folks,
>     I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
>TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
>Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).
>Designing a ship at a lower tech level has the added advantage in that it
>is inherantly cheaper (5% per TL) because of currency devaluation.
>     Now this got me thinking along other lines. In MT ship design, crew
>requirements are, pretty much, directly related to the cost of the
>subsystem you are crewing. So, for example, the number of engineers is
>equal to the cost of the Power and Locomotion subsystems, divided by the
>computer multiple, divided by 400. Of course this is assuming an invariant
>credit. Would it make sense to apply exchange rate to this?

Hmmm... You could do that if you wanted too but it would complicate the
buying of starships if you applied exchange rates, but would just be
greater level of *detail*. If you feel you need the greater level of
*detail* go for it. <G>

>     For example, a Laser Turret is, basically, the same at TL13 and TL15.
>If the above was used then it would be saying that the TL13 version of the
>laser required less people/computers to operate than the TL15 version. This
>kind of fits in with other assumptions in the system. For example, the
>number of control points you need to cover is _multiplied_ by the TL,
>indicating that higher tech devices need more computer controls. But, that
>might also be an argument saying this is already accounted for.
>     Opinions? [other than Advocacy arguments]

Yes from what I seen the greater the TL the greater number of *controls*
are needed, but the higher TL's computers CP multiplier you can actually
get by with fewer *controls*.

One note, at TL 10-12 if you try and design a *large*(greater than
100,000dt) ship for use as a cold berth colonizer the computer that you can
have at those TL's. I have experimented with building some colonizers for
just before the Long Night? of the Imperium. I was unable to so it by the
MT rules.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:29:20 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Densitomiters

>1 Pluto mass
>(5x10^23 kg according to my _old_ science data book)
A very old book; pluto's actual mass is close to 1.1x10^22 kg. (The old
number was before we knew about Charon - people thought pluto was much
bigger before we realized that some of the light was coming from a moon and
it wasn't a point souce - and possibly from assuming a mostly-rock rather 
than mostly-ice composition. The new number is from pluto/charon's orbit
around each other and is pretty definite.)

FFS2 errata (see the usual web pages) includes rules for grav sensors/
densitometers. The main use is detecting thruster-powered ships, on the
assumption that thruster plates make gravitational radiation (which hence
goes down as 1/R^2); they can detect a scoutship
type target at ranges of a few hundred km. (Deliberately made weak so that (in
the case of big ships) they wouldn't make stealth/hiding impossible.) 
They should have a secondary capability to detect static masses; I haven't
really worked out what that would be like - I'm not sure if I should try and
scale from real-world densitometers or game balance.

>IMO they should be able to detect ships entering or
>leaving Jump Space. Would be detecting tidal forces, or would it be
>reasonable to say they are detecting the actual attreaction, which would
>give them a range proportional to 1/R^2?
They'd be detecting the gravity wave coming from the objects emergence,
which is again a 1/R^2 phenomenon. How strong this signal is isn't clear to
me - "what happens if mass appears out of nowhere" isn't actually a question
general relativity lets you answer.
For game balance, I would probably tweak them so they work around 30 hexes
or so - we don't want to be able to detect every jump emergence out to 
the edge of the solar system; it would make spying and smuggling and similar
PC activiies too hard.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:34:40 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: anti-missle systems

>Has anyone designed an anti-missle system for the extraordinary missles like
>"bubba"
Not to resurrect the argument, but my feeling was that the big death missiles
like Bubba were so expensive that one doesn't have to deal with very many
of them, which makes conventional laser turrets - or anti-missile kkm's - 
a good alternative; a conventional laser turret only gets one shot at a
fast missile, but the one shot always hits, and laser turrets are much
cheaper than big death missiles. The counter is to put lots of ECM on the
big death missile; the argument never really settled it (with perhaps some
agreement that if the ECM didn't work, you could certainly hit and damage
the thing - at least its vulnerable sensors and probably its weak side armour.)

I have Sinister Ideas in the back of my mind about how I'd design an even
nastier missile...

Burc
e

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 08:53:40 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

>
>>I used to play D&D with a friend who wouldn't kill a player, no matter how
>>stupid the mistake.                                  ^^^^^^
>
>I try to avoid killing players, as the bodies are difficult to dispose of,
>and after the first few the word gets out and nobody will game with you.
>
>Sorry, I'm still waking up here.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent


Ah, my problem is with the ones who DO still want to game with you!  :)

Brian ("Yep, Bubba's been in my group for 'bout three years now . . .") Mays

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:58:34 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

Location: Uppsala Sweden
Founding date: 1986
Group size: 2-3
Number of referees: 1
Health: Once a week, more or less!
Predominant rules system: 99% HomeBrew, 1% MT
Campaign location: Domain of Deneb
Campaign time: 1113-1120
E-mail contact: anders.backman@aniware.se

Please keep the tag field names above, as it will let me process
the data automatically.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:04:05 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

>BTW in 2300AD gravitic scanners, which sound like densitometers can detect
>stutter warps, and IMO they should be able to detect ships entering or
>leaving Jump Space. Would be detecting tidal forces, or would it be
>reasonable to say they are detecting the actual attreaction, which would
>give them a range proportional to 1/R^2? If so we could detect a Scout
>jumping at 5.9x10^10 m or 59,000,000 km, which is nearly 2000 hexes (0.4
>AU) and a 100,000 DT ship at 1.9x10^12 m or 6000 LS (about 12 AU). This
>would make densitometers very useful for detecting invasion fleets.

Yes, my densitometers are used to detect the gravity wave from
incoming/outgoing jumpships pretty much everywhere inthe inner system and
the Navy have stations in a system to pick everything up within the system.
This helps me accepting the notion from 5th frontier war and other Canon
sources that fleets will detect each other if in the same starsystem. Of
course when you know where they entered they they might not be there when
you arrive within PEMS range.

My densitometers can measure the ships aproximate mass and used jumpnumber
if spectacular success/good enough signal but never from/to where the
target jumped.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #426
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 23 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 427



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Missiles
Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design
re: anti-missle systems
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design 
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: Drop Tanks 
detecting brown dwarfs with sensors
Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design
Subject: Jump details
Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design 
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: surviving misjumps
HPGs was Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)
re: Jump details

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:18:59 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Missiles

Somebody care to refresh my memory on the cost and size of standard anti-ship 
missiles in CT?  I need costs on both nuke & non-nuke versions.

And no I *DON'T* need figures on 'em from FFS2!!!!!!!

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:22:20 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design

At 02:50 PM 4/23/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Yo Folks,
>     I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
>TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
>Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).

There are actually four:

Glisten/Glisten   2036 A000986-F A Hi Na In As Cp
Rhylanor/Rhylanor 2716 A434934-F A Hi Cp
Mora/Mora         3124 AA99AC7-F A Hi In Cp
Trin/Trin's Veil  3235 A894A96-F A Hi In Cp

Note that three of these are industrial worlds.

From the Imperial Encyclopedia.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ tn- t4 ?tg+ to(CORPS)++ ru+ ge++ 3i
          jt-- au st+ ls+ pi va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:50:23 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: re: anti-missle systems

At 08:34 AM 4/23/98 -0700, bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
>>Has anyone designed an anti-missle system for the extraordinary missles like
>>"bubba"
>Not to resurrect the argument, but my feeling was that the big death missiles
>like Bubba were so expensive that one doesn't have to deal with very many
>of them, which makes conventional laser turrets - or anti-missile kkm's - 
>a good alternative; a conventional laser turret only gets one shot at a
>fast missile, but the one shot always hits, and laser turrets are much
>cheaper than big death missiles. The counter is to put lots of ECM on the
>big death missile; the argument never really settled it (with perhaps some
>agreement that if the ECM didn't work, you could certainly hit and damage
>the thing - at least its vulnerable sensors and probably its weak side
armour.)
>
>I have Sinister Ideas in the back of my mind about how I'd design an even
>nastier missile...

Ripp, Screech, sound of grave side being opened from within.<G>

Let it be resurrected again!

"Hello Boys, I'm back!"<G>

In a combat where big armored super fast missiles are being used(Bubba
being an extreme example), the PD laser will have to engage at a range
prior to the missiles deploying its payload. The missile will be trying to
deploy it's payload prior to *effective* engagement range of the target's
PD lasers. Reason most KKM and Prox nuke missiles will have mass multitudes
of Magic BB's or Nuke warheads for the PD laser to *effectively* deal with
within the time envelope of the engagement. If too many multiple warhead
payloads get deployed it will cause *overload* of the target's PD lasers.

Remember that "Bubba" was a reusable missile, essentially a robot fighter,
not for use as a KKM missile itself.

If the PD laser cannot penetrate the armor on the facing it then external
features can be affected like sensor arrays, but it the missile has
multiple sensor antenna arrays or uses a similar system to the SPY-1A,
taking out one array antenna will not seriously impair sensor performance.
So the PD laser will have to get multiple hits on external features to
impair sensor performance. But it the target ship is *rolling* and the
missile is *rolling* this could get most interesting.

As for anti-missile defences they will have to be *layered* to have a
chance in multiple ship/missile combat. Example could be a Long Range
Anti-Missile Missiles, then Medium Range High Power PD Lasers, then
Extremely High ROF (but lower power than the Medium PD lasers)PD Lasers for
the short range.

One thing in starship combat with the *new* sensor rules, that has been
largely overlooked is a KKM missile designed to take out the large sensor
arrays. Kinda like a "good poke in the eye" so to speak. 

Under FF&S1 I once designed a extremely large Focal Array Laser(10-100km)
just to engage ships that had just jumped in to a solar system. It could
not pen the target ship's armor but was great at removing all exterior
features of the targeted ship that were not as armored as the hull.

Ship combat using missiles will have to be a *mix* of Nuke Det Lasers, KKM,
and Prox Nukes. If a mix is not used then the defenders can have a better
chance at 100% *effective* PD Laser design.

As for the EW/ECM I would put EW/ECM on the missile just to keep the PD
Laser defense on it's toes. You go for the PD Lasers Beam Pointer to be
jammed, that way the PD Laser will have to  install ECM on its Beam
Pointer. Again rising costs for both the missiles and PD Lasers.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:59:17 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> Wed, 22 Apr 1998 14:12:42 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
> >>As far as drop tanks, they do open up a bad precident (no matter what
> >>your theory is).  They introduce the idea that you don't have to
> >>carry your fuel with you, and so are only a quarter step away from
> >>"jump gates" or "jump stations", which would be a big change in the
> >>background.
> 
> >You would be right about drop tanks not fitting into the rest of the
> >Traveller Universe if it wasn't for several facts: 1) It turns out that
> >you need a fairly high turnover in fuel before it is economic to use
> >drop tanks. 2) You need specially constructed ships (ie. ships with
> >no interior fuel tanks apart from the power plant fuel tankage) to take
> >advantage of drop tanks (for the purpose of saving money, that is). And
> >3) Drop tanks are a relatively new invention.
> 
> Well, once you open up to the idea that ships don't have to
> use their own jump fuel, you have a number of problems.  I don't know
> how the game economics work out (it doesn't take an overnight trip to
> get out to most jump points and back so I don't see the need for
> staterooms, etc., nor why you have to haul a shuttle back and forth,
> but I haven't gotten into the analysis) but it just doesn't make sense
> that having to haul though jump space all that equipment you used to
> move the fuel to the jump space and then the fuel itself would be
> cheaper.  Also, you have to mandate that nobody ever comes up with a
> cheaper way to do it (just us a mass driver from the surface, or just
> use shuttles to get it to orbit and then just boost them in a trajectory
> that gets them to the refueling point, or you take a huge icy body an
> move it in, etc.)  Also, as your own ananlysis points out, higher jump
> ships would benefit.  Xboats wouldn't use the system.  So would travel
> between specific systems that do a lot of trade (unless they happen to
> be right next to each other).  It just opens a can of worms.

Not really.  Considering that 'fuelless jumps' would be probably restricted to 
either highly civilised areas or dedicated routes due to the fact that a Class 
C or worse port isn't likely to *HAVE* spare drop tanks around, I don't see 
how game balance is torqued.  And considering that military and pc ships would 
*NEED* to carry their own jump fuel, since they're mostly used to get to and 
from frontier (read "non-A/B starport") areas, this doesn't affect them at all 
unless they're jumping into a 'dry' system.  You go in without the return 
fuel, you *AIN'T* comin' back.

The 'equipment used to move that fuel' has a technical term.  We call them 
'starships' around here.

And this of course in *NO* way gets the pcs off the hook for carrying their 
powerplant fuel.  They still gotta take it.  Otherwise, they have NO power in 
their ship.  Ever try breathing vacuum for a week?  No power *also* means no 
life support.

> 
> Now you can invoke them as a new discovery without changing the
> background history, but then you have to go through and have your
> setting playout all the ramifications that would spin out from it.
> And then you have to decide you like the changes in the feel of the
> setting that will result.  I wouldn't say this is for the faint of
> heart.

I still don't see how this would affect much of anything in a frontier setting. The main users of this technique would be massive freighters run by megacorps.  Bulk carriers and such, the guys who are the *backbone* of interstellar trade.  Unless the pcs have enough money to throw down on a bulk freighter, their boats will *still* carry their own jump fuel.  And even if they *did*, the ancillary support costs will restrict the bulk freighter to 'milk runs' away from the frontier.  So how does this affect game balance?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:09:40 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design 

> Yo Folks,
>      I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
> TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
> Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).
> Designing a ship at a lower tech level has the added advantage in that it
> is inherantly cheaper (5% per TL) because of currency devaluation.

Way I always handled it was, calculate everything per TL15 Imperial credits, 
then apply the currency exchange rate.  Unruh's Rule #4:  Keep the PC's 
itching for cash.  (grin)  This has the effect of making ships *more* 
expensive at lower tech levels, thus factoring in the increased cost of 
importing higher tech components to keep the boat reasonably standard.  (grin)

>      Now this got me thinking along other lines. In MT ship design, crew
> requirements are, pretty much, directly related to the cost of the
> subsystem you are crewing. So, for example, the number of engineers is
> equal to the cost of the Power and Locomotion subsystems, divided by the
> computer multiple, divided by 400. Of course this is assuming an invariant
> credit. Would it make sense to apply exchange rate to this?

I was under the impression that the number of engineers was directly related 
to how *much* stuff you had on the boat, but that's CT.  I'll have to do some 
bashing to figure out my way thru the MT tables again.  Pass the Advil...

>      For example, a Laser Turret is, basically, the same at TL13 and TL15.
> If the above was used then it would be saying that the TL13 version of the
> laser required less people/computers to operate than the TL15 version. This
> kind of fits in with other assumptions in the system. For example, the
> number of control points you need to cover is _multiplied_ by the TL,
> indicating that higher tech devices need more computer controls. But, that
> might also be an argument saying this is already accounted for.
>      Opinions? [other than Advocacy arguments]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

Howbout, the higher tech stuff has more mature technology in it?  So, a TL15 
laser would have improved control and aiming circuitry, be made of more 
advanced materials that are now, due to TL, easier to deal with.

Whatcha think?

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:15:39 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Now a Jump-6 ship becomes the cheapest as well as the fastest way of
> moving freight long distance.

It also gives any empire with higher jump technology a new decided
advantage in warfare due to improved logistics.  A TL 15 Imperium
would be better able to leverage its size, and get bullets and bombs
to the front from the core worlds--which its TL13 opponent woudn't
be able to do as efficiently or as quickly.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:40:38 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > Now a Jump-6 ship becomes the cheapest as well as the fastest way of
> > moving freight long distance.
> 
> It also gives any empire with higher jump technology a new decided
> advantage in warfare due to improved logistics.  A TL 15 Imperium
> would be better able to leverage its size, and get bullets and bombs
> to the front from the core worlds--which its TL13 opponent woudn't
> be able to do as efficiently or as quickly.

At the cost of giving up the freighters.  If there's nothing in the target 
system to refuel the freighters, they're stuck there.  And multibillion credit 
freighters don't grow on trees.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:53:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> At the cost of giving up the freighters.  If there's nothing in the target 
> system to refuel the freighters, they're stuck there.  And multibillion credit 
> freighters don't grow on trees.

So keep the drop-tank freighters back from the front, where things are
stable and you can depend on drop tanks being available.  Use smaller
freighters with included tanks nearer the front-lines.  This would
also be a good way to put all the ships built with internal tankage to
work without rying to refit them to work with drop-tanks. 

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:56:46 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: detecting brown dwarfs with sensors

A quick bit of research and calculation indicates that a 15 jupiter mass
2 billion year old
brown dwarf is burning deuterium for about 6*10^18 watts - a neutrino
signature (in FFS2 terms; see FFS2 addenda/errata) of about +8.
(For reference, a scoutship is around +0.) The smallest neutrino sensor
in FFS2 has a sensitivity of 8. (This sensor costs MCr 25 at TL14; 
possibly I should introduce cheaper/smaller sensors, though I wanted 
neutrino sensors to have a minimum size to account for the fancy
nuclear-damper-type shielding they need.) Hence it can see the brown dwarf
at ranges of about +16, which is 300 AU. 

Deuterium burning is a pretty steep function of mass, though; a 10 jupiter
mass object at the same age is about a hundred times dimmer in neutrinos,
for a signature of +7 and detection range of 30 AO. A 40 jupiter mass
brown dwarf has burned all its deuterium by the time it's only 10 million
years old.

In all cases, the objects are probably a lot easier to detect via thermal
emission; the 10 jupiter mass brown dwarf still has a surface temperature 
of 300 K at an age of 2 billion years
I need to do detailed models (warm targets like planets are harder to 
see than hot targets like starship radiators) but to first order 
the 10 jupiter mass brown dwarf would have a passive/IR signature of 
+8; a decent starship sensor (PEMS-13) can see this out to a hundred
parsecs(!). Of course, I'm not sure how you skim fuel from even a 10 jupiter
mass objet. A 1 jupiter mass 5 billion year old free-floater would have
a signature of around +4 to +6 (it's sufficiently cold - 100 K - that the
starship signature chart is pretty meaningless and I need to really run
a detailed model) - which would imply detectability out to about 3000 AU. 
(A big science/military sensor - like the one I put on my March THUDD
design - could see these things out to 100000AU; it could basically chart
all the "free jupiters" in a hex in a couple of weeks and a couple of jumps.

A sub-message is that free jupiters therefore have to be pretty rare, 
otherwise everyone would use them during wartime - most likely the
handful of "calibration points" in the Regency represent almost all the
free jupiters. 

Calculations for rock planets and iceballs/free comets will take a 
while longer.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:42:03 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design

>> Yo Folks,
>>      I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
>> TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
>> Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).
>> Designing a ship at a lower tech level has the added advantage in that it
>> is inherantly cheaper (5% per TL) because of currency devaluation.
>
>Way I always handled it was, calculate everything per TL15 Imperial credits,
>then apply the currency exchange rate.  Unruh's Rule #4:  Keep the PC's
>itching for cash.  (grin)  This has the effect of making ships *more*
>expensive at lower tech levels, thus factoring in the increased cost of
>importing higher tech components to keep the boat reasonably standard.  (grin)

This method would actually *lower* the price of the ship, depending on the
scenario.  Observe;

Free Trader X costs 100 Mcr.  The exchange rate from a TL 15 World to a
TL14 World would be .95 When the ship is bought on a TL14 world with TL15
credits it actually costs 95 (TL14) Mcr.  When bought on a TL15 world with
TL14 Credits the cost would be (100 credits *divided by* .95 =) 105.27
credits.  Jo is saying if the same ship is built on a TL14 world it is
cheaper since all the component costs are cheaper (although the buying
power of the less valued credit is effectively the same).

The wider implications are that any vessel or component of a vessel that
could be built at a lower tech level than the local one will be produced
off world and shipped here due to the cost differential.  This is
consistent with economics in our current time; finished items, like cars,
are assembled in the U.S. and some (generally high tech) parts are
manufactured here, but those parts whose costs are more proportional to the
cost of labor are made in other places, like Mexico or Indonesia, where
labor is cheaper (and standard of living is lower and - this may be a jump
- - commonly available technology level is lower).

>>      Now this got me thinking along other lines. In MT ship design, crew
>> requirements are, pretty much, directly related to the cost of the
>> subsystem you are crewing. So, for example, the number of engineers is
>> equal to the cost of the Power and Locomotion subsystems, divided by the
>> computer multiple, divided by 400. Of course this is assuming an invariant
>> credit. Would it make sense to apply exchange rate to this?
>
>I was under the impression that the number of engineers was directly related
>to how *much* stuff you had on the boat, but that's CT.  I'll have to do some
>bashing to figure out my way thru the MT tables again.  Pass the Advil...

I would say for simplifications sake and also to lessen the impact of the
"import drag" that the use of cost in those equations is intended to be a
measure of the support needed, not the actual *cost* of the control system
related to TL.

In fact, I would expect the number of control points (to do the same task)
would be *lower* at higher tech levels (which Keven is saying below).  I
know that this is taken into account by the computer multiple in one way,
and I do not think any additional calculations are needed, but I think that
the cost figures used should not be subjected to exchange rates before
being converted to control points.

>>      For example, a Laser Turret is, basically, the same at TL13 and TL15.
>> If the above was used then it would be saying that the TL13 version of the
>> laser required less people/computers to operate than the TL15 version. This
>> kind of fits in with other assumptions in the system. For example, the
>> number of control points you need to cover is _multiplied_ by the TL,
>> indicating that higher tech devices need more computer controls. But, that
>> might also be an argument saying this is already accounted for.
>>      Opinions? [other than Advocacy arguments]
>
>Hmmmmmmmmmmm...
>
>Howbout, the higher tech stuff has more mature technology in it?  So, a TL15
>laser would have improved control and aiming circuitry, be made of more
>advanced materials that are now, due to TL, easier to deal with.

I would guess (or even rule) that where there is an industrial TL13 world
within 6-12 parsecs of a major TL15 shipyard (Glisten, Mora), most or all
of the turrets assembled into ships there are being imported from that TL13
world.  Of course, the cost differential is being partly eaten up with
shipping costs, and the sticker price is no lower.

I would guess that the TL15 version of the same turret, while more
expensive than the TL13 version in "constant" dollars, will have if
anything *fewer* required control points rather than more, by virtue of
being higher tech (and therefore a more mature product, with fewer bugs,
tighter tolerances, etc.).  This is not enough o a defference in game terms
and therefore is no different from the TL13 model.

I also feel that this is generally moot since that TL15 ship you just drove
off the lot actually has a TL13 turret installed in it, the part having
been imported.

Well, back to bashing through my own MT spreadsheet...

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:52:53 -0500
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Subject: Jump details

> Dave said:
>
>> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
>> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
>> used for, or how jumpspace worked
>
> Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be explained
> to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.
>
> LKW

I like the vagueness in the rules her as well. It lets me play around with the jump drives and not have to 
worry about having the way jump works IMTU different than that in the published literature. I have some ship
designs that use the antimatter rules from MT that don't use any hydrogen as displacement mass.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:33:20 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: TL complexity and crew requirements in MT ship design 

> >> Yo Folks,
> >>      I was working the other day at redesigning the standard MT ships at
> >> TL12 instead of TL15 (since there are only two planets that are TL15 in the
> >> Spinward Marches it seemed a bit daft to assume that that was standard).
> >> Designing a ship at a lower tech level has the added advantage in that it
> >> is inherantly cheaper (5% per TL) because of currency devaluation.
> >
> >Way I always handled it was, calculate everything per TL15 Imperial credits,
> >then apply the currency exchange rate.  Unruh's Rule #4:  Keep the PC's
> >itching for cash.  (grin)  This has the effect of making ships *more*
> >expensive at lower tech levels, thus factoring in the increased cost of
> >importing higher tech components to keep the boat reasonably standard.  (grin)
> 
> This method would actually *lower* the price of the ship, depending on the
> scenario.  Observe;
> 
> Free Trader X costs 100 Mcr.  The exchange rate from a TL 15 World to a
> TL14 World would be .95 When the ship is bought on a TL14 world with TL15
> credits it actually costs 95 (TL14) Mcr.  When bought on a TL15 world with
> TL14 Credits the cost would be (100 credits *divided by* .95 =) 105.27
> credits.  Jo is saying if the same ship is built on a TL14 world it is
> cheaper since all the component costs are cheaper (although the buying
> power of the less valued credit is effectively the same).

Um, I *think* you got that reversed.  A TL15 credit would be worth more than 
the TL14 credit, therefore you'd *divide* by .95 to get the TL14 credit and 
*multiply* by .95 to get the TL15 credit.  IE, 100 TL14 credits = 95 TL15's & 
100 TL15's = 105.27 TL14's.
 
> The wider implications are that any vessel or component of a vessel that
> could be built at a lower tech level than the local one will be produced
> off world and shipped here due to the cost differential.  This is
> consistent with economics in our current time; finished items, like cars,
> are assembled in the U.S. and some (generally high tech) parts are
> manufactured here, but those parts whose costs are more proportional to the
> cost of labor are made in other places, like Mexico or Indonesia, where
> labor is cheaper (and standard of living is lower and - this may be a jump
> - commonly available technology level is lower).

And the higher tech stuff exported to lower tech areas would cost *more*, 
which sounds right.  It'll make the locals want to maintain their high tech 
stuff better so that it lasts longer because it can't be easily replaced, kidn 
of like American cars in Cuba these days.

> >Howbout, the higher tech stuff has more mature technology in it?  So, a TL15
> >laser would have improved control and aiming circuitry, be made of more
> >advanced materials that are now, due to TL, easier to deal with.
> 
> I would guess (or even rule) that where there is an industrial TL13 world
> within 6-12 parsecs of a major TL15 shipyard (Glisten, Mora), most or all
> of the turrets assembled into ships there are being imported from that TL13
> world.  Of course, the cost differential is being partly eaten up with
> shipping costs, and the sticker price is no lower.
> 
> I would guess that the TL15 version of the same turret, while more
> expensive than the TL13 version in "constant" dollars, will have if
> anything *fewer* required control points rather than more, by virtue of
> being higher tech (and therefore a more mature product, with fewer bugs,
> tighter tolerances, etc.).  This is not enough o a defference in game terms
> and therefore is no different from the TL13 model.

Sounds something like the real-world Soviet practice of producing 2 versions 
of their weapons systems:  a 'high tech' version for internal useage, and a 
'monkey-copy' version for exporting to low tech places.  The high-tech version 
of a low-tech device would be sturdier, harder to khest up, and easier to fix, 
perfect for putting in the hands of untrained indigs...

> I also feel that this is generally moot since that TL15 ship you just drove
> off the lot actually has a TL13 turret installed in it, the part having
> been imported.
> 
> Well, back to bashing through my own MT spreadsheet...

That spreadsheet work on any Linux spreadsheet progs?  (hint, hint)

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:35:36 +0100
From: "Marc" <marc.davison@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: 22 April 1998 21:52
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns



Location: Sunderland, UK
Founding date: Sometime 1995/1996
Group size: 6-8
Number of referees: 1
Health:    Good
Predominant rules system:    TNE80%, HomeBrew20%
Campaign location: Old Expanses/Diaspora
Campaign time: 1204 (NE4)
E-mail contact:marc.davison@virgin.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 09:22:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:
> >> Snowballs will still have some passive signature - they'll equilibriate
> >> with diffuse starlight to about 11 K
> >The fun part is spotting that little 11K chunk of ice out of the 10^8 or
> >so objects of similar or greater brightness...
> 
> I think it should be spectrally fairly distinctive; observations at
> multiple wavelengths will give you the object's temperature, and you can
> look for water ice and dust bands, too.

Well, first of all the radiation the object emits won't be consistent with a
temperature of 11K anyway, given the albedo of ice it will be more consistent
with starlight filtered through water absorbtion bands (which, unfortunately,
is also going to be the signature of quite a lot of stars), as it will reflect
more than it emits.  Hm..I might have underestimated the number of objects you
need to filter, if we assume our snowball is 10 km across and 2 AU away it
would have a visual magnitude of around +10 at 1 AU from a star, it actually is
being hit by roughly 3e-6 times as much (assuming 11K is legit, I didn't check
the math on that, I think it's actually a bit high), giving it a visual
magnitude of around +24.  There's probably at least 10^12 objects with a visual
magnitude of +24 or higher....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:43:08 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: HPGs was Re: Drop tanks (Was: Jumpspace)

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>SD Mooney wrote:
>> Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >I was under the impression that this sort of charge was stored in an
>> >overloaded
>> >HPG.  Although beyond its safe limits, it could maintain the charge for a
>> >short
>> >period without flying apart.  Stronger materials can increase the safe
>> >load, but
>> >you can still overload it a bit if you keep the charge short.
>>
>> Most flywheel energy storage systems operate between two resonances - as
>> stopping the unit puts wear on the bearings. Assuming that this isn't a
>> problem (true active mag or grav bearings) you could handwave that the HPGs
>> in a drop tank push the upper resonance limits using a damping technology
>> to get more energy into the system, thus allowing a faster discharge if you
>> slow the HPG down afixed rate of spin. Maintaining the high speed would
>> increase the risk of resonance and failure...
>>
>> I also suspect that HPGs would have their mass reduced if higher strength
>> is achieveable - usually they'll be looking at a fixed amount of energy
>> like a battery, and higher strength = higher speed = less mass required for
>> same energy storage.
>
>err.. umm... did you just agree or disagree? :-|

Err. (sometimes I embarrass myself - I shouldn't post that late at night).

What I was trying to say was:

1) I agree that the stronger materials will allow faster rotation and thus
(for the same diameter wheel, similar density) a higher energy density.

2) I disagree that there will be much spare capacity in a HPG for the
following reasons:

a) It is likely that the designs are modular so they can be supplied to the
J-Drive OEMs. In most cases the manufacturer will probably look at building
a smaller, faster unit for the same energy to reduce their costs (remember
that the higher strength material will probably cost significantly more so
you'd look to use less of it).

b) HPGs will operate up to a certain point where a resonance will cause
failure by contact of the rotating element or destruction of the bearings.
There is unlikely to be much spare capacity to go higher than the rated
speed, else you aren't using the material or the performance of the
rotating element particularly efficiently.

3) Based on the work I've been involved in in flywheel energy systems, I
would propose one way to get an extra charge out of a unit. Most
flywheel/HPG systems I've seen don't discharge totally. This is because of
two reasons -

(a) bearing wear induced by the start/stop from rest
and
(b) potential for damage to the bearing/rotor from low end resonances just
before stopping.

Thus you could suggest that the HPGs in a Jumpdrive never fully discharge,
allowing a special case option where they do discharge fully, releasing
extra energy. For example, in any HPG/FESS you can obtain 75% of the energy
(gross - ignoring transfer losses) in the rotor if you cycle it between
100% design speed and 50% design speed. Slowing to rest would boost
available energy by 25%, at the risk of damaging the HPG.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:47:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Jump details

GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> wrote:

>Dave said:
>> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
>> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
>> used for, or how jumpspace worked
>Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to be explained
>to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.
>
>LKW

I actually agree. I posted the comment on FFS2 when someone was launching
into that famous number 'If a jump drive burns all the energy that qickly
why can't it be used for a weapon system'.

Personally, I find the desire to explain everything in detail irritating
because (1) it's a game and (2) how on earth are we (TL8...) meant to
explain something as wonderous as a jump drive, which breaks physical laws
as we know them... But then, I happily use ships from all four editions...
if you've got the acceleration, the jump number and a couple of other
figures what else do you need?

IIRC Jump drive works using the scientific principle of 'necessary plot
device' to move players between the stars....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #427
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 23 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 428



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tanks
Re: surviving misjumps
[T98#423] Ranks
Re: Adventures during wartime.
Re: Jump details 
Re: Drop tanks 
re: Drop Tanks
Re: Traveller Codes
Re: Drop Tanks 
Deep Impact?
Re: Uplift
[CT] crew rules for High Guard/spreadsheet implementation
Re: Drop Tanks 
Re: surviving misjumps
Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)
Re: Missiles
Re: Drop Tanks
re: anti-missle systems
Re: misjump survival
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: Assorted
Re: Re: Drop tanks
Re: Traveller Codes
Re: Deep Impact?
Re: Drop Tanks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:45:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

>This dosen't solve a thing. In fact, it propably makes matters worse. The
>amount of fuel you can store in a surge tank in the jump drive is minuscule
>compared to the total amount and also takes away space that could be use for
>those pesky high-capacity energy storage thingies. And the big problem with
>the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
>capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high. Halving  the size of the
>capacitors in order to keep 1/10th of the fuel for use during the jump isn't
>going to help a whole lot with that, now is it? So long as you accept drop
>tanks as part of the canonical background technology, _almost all the
>hydrogen must be expended one way or the other before the ship enters jump
>space_. Any explanation that fails to take that into account isn't worth a
>bent nickel.

Hmm. Perhaps drop tanks are effectively external 'combustion chambers' for
the jumpdrive; the capacitors manage the burnt fuel's discharge into the
jump grid. Or are we just going to have a magic handwave in turning that
fuel into energy...?

Maybe they're the jump drive equivalent of a solid rocket.

If they are combustion chambers it makes the T-B explosion even more
understandable to me.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:42:19 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

At 01:04 AM 23/04/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> I'm curious as to this fourth power thing. I always thought that active
>> sensors were affected by: 2 x R^2
>
>No, you see the signal going out is reduced by the inverse square law.
>And then *that* signal is again reduced by inverse square. Which gives
>you 1/r^2 * 1/r^2 = 1/r^4.
>
>It doesn't *add* it *multiplies*.

Got it. I sat down with a pencil and paper and did some diagrams, and it
makes sense now.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:10:59 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#423] Ranks

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 16:45:48 -0400, dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>>    When the U.S. authorized a fifth star to certain officers toward the end
>>of WWII the titles were "General of the Armies" and "Admiral of the Fleets".
>>There were five Army and three Navy.  Marines had none because they were
>>after all only a Corps (normally a three star position) in size.  The Air
>>Force was part of the Army, "The Army Air Corps" until 1947 so they didn't
>>have one either.

>The actual title was General of the Army, and Gen Omar Bradley was the last
>man to hold the rank.  When he donated his field lacket to the Infantry
>museum at Ft. Benning, there was a small stir when somebody realized that
>the rank was missing.  Gen Bradley removed the rank from his own uniform
>and pinned them to the jacket, remarking that anybody who couldn't figure
>who he was should be discharged anyway.

Just as a matter of trivia, does anyone know why the rank was
called "General of the Army" instead of "Field Marshal" as is
done in almost every other armed force?

(It's because of the name of the first American to be appointed
to that rank: The Powers That Be didn't like the idea of speaking
to or about "Marshal Marshall".)

Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
and John J. Pershing (1976).  Pershing was authorized to
designate his own insignia for the rank, but never wore more than
four stars.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:06:09 -0400
From: Hugh Foster <Hugh_Foster@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Adventures during wartime.

>> Geez, and here I was thinking nobody else ever heard of 
M*A*S*H :^) <<

Oh, no, I grew up with it.

[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]
| Hugh Foster                                 100326,446       |
| Internet:                       hugh_foster@compuserve.com |
|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Hugh_Foster     |
|                      Now Back on the Web!                  |
| If you must hold yourself up to your children as an object   |
| lesson, hold yourself up as a warning and not as an          |
| example.                                                     |
[------------------------------oOo-----------------------------]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:16:33 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details 

> IIRC Jump drive works using the scientific principle of 'necessary plot
> device' to move players between the stars....

Good enough for me...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:23:37 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks 

> Hmm. Perhaps drop tanks are effectively external 'combustion chambers' for
> the jumpdrive; the capacitors manage the burnt fuel's discharge into the
> jump grid. Or are we just going to have a magic handwave in turning that
> fuel into energy...?

IMTU, the drive reactor burns fast & hot.  But it still takes 10-15 mins to 
fully charge the crystals.  Ref: LBB2.  (grin)

> Maybe they're the jump drive equivalent of a solid rocket.

Close, but reuseable...

> If they are combustion chambers it makes the T-B explosion even more
> understandable to me.

I can see a big ball of plasma letting loose if you lose containment, but *not* a thermonuclear blast.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:26:19 -0500
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks

> Considering that 'fuelless jumps' would be probably restricted to 
> either highly civilised areas or dedicated routes due to the fact that a Class 
> C or worse port isn't likely to *HAVE* spare drop tanks around, I don't see 
> how game balance is torqued.  And considering that military and pc ships would 
> *NEED* to carry their own jump fuel, since they're mostly used to get to and 
> from frontier (read "non-A/B starport") areas, this doesn't affect them at all 
> unless they're jumping into a 'dry' system.  You go in without the return 
> fuel, you *AIN'T* comin' back.

I seem to remember that in CT, the drop tanks were specially made for each class of
ship.  A fueling port would need to have *lots* of different types of drop tanks on hand to
be able to refuel *any* passing ship. For most corporate fueling starports would have tanks
that were designed for their ships. The odds are that any spare tanks that they do have 
would not fit your ship.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:57:04 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: Traveller Codes

Aw nuts!  !@#$%^&*! Where'd I put that stoopid paper!

Okay fellow wing nuts.  I need a hand here.  I can't find the original TML
message I printed out with the Traveller Codes and I deleted the messages
from my PC files.  Then I saw a follow-on posting that insinuated there was
a Web Page that had the codes and guess what, no web page was listed.

SOCORRO!  por favor!

Eric 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 17:54:24 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > At the cost of giving up the freighters.  If there's nothing in the target 
> > system to refuel the freighters, they're stuck there.  And multibillion credit 
> > freighters don't grow on trees.
> 
> So keep the drop-tank freighters back from the front, where things are
> stable and you can depend on drop tanks being available.  Use smaller
> freighters with included tanks nearer the front-lines.  This would
> also be a good way to put all the ships built with internal tankage to
> work without rying to refit them to work with drop-tanks. 

You're assuming that you can get the dtf's close enough to the front to do 
some serious good.  If the 'bad guys' know you have them, they can always 
sucker you into a 'dry' system and chop you into chutney, resupplying from the 
remains of your freighters.  Then *their* tankers move up, refuel your J4 
tanked fleet, and start their next offensive.

Or, seed a few gas giants with 400-600 dt SDB's to deny any possible 
wilderness refueling by the enemy.  Assuming the dtf's will take with them a 
tanker/tender to make them fuel for the next jump, deny it the GG & you've 
just stopped the resupply and advance.  I don't see heavily armed tankers as 
something a naval architect would come up with...

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:33:37 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Deep Impact?

Hi,
Ive just seen a trailer for the movie "Deep Impact". Reminded me of those old falling
rocks and meteorite discussions from a while back...
Now the question? Is it any good? (Plot, Realism, etc).
Should one go see it?

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:04:17 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Uplift

In a message dated 98-04-22 17:21:42 EDT, you write:

<< Right now, they're at about
 the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.
 
 It's your move...>>

Assuming the development of history from 1750 to 2100 on Earth is a reasonable
model I want to emulate (and compress with regard to duration), I would take
the following steps...

Find a nation situated like the US (access to ocean trade, abundant natural
resources, social forces reasonably applauding and rewarding entrepreneurs and
hard work). 

Introduce steam power for ships and land railways. Industry, steel making,
large corporations, research and development, higher standard of living,
consumer demand, and ultimately everything else follows.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:08:21 +1200
From: "Douglas D, Law School Computer Support" <DOUGLASD@waikato.ac.nz>
Subject: [CT] crew rules for High Guard/spreadsheet implementation

Hi.

Keven wrote in another thread:

>What I'd *LOVE* to see is a pile more of HG 2nd Ed ships...

 What I wouldn't mind is if someone could point me at a HG reference
 that explains the rules for crew allocation...

 I was working on a excel spreadsheet to do HG designs, but the crew
 rules threw me - I built the Midu using the spreadsheet and the
 numbers I was getting for crew differed from the numbers given in
 Fighting Ships...

D.
___________________________________________________________________________
Douglas D.          Computer Support, School of Law, Waikato University, NZ
douglasd@waikato.ac.nz  :  64-7-856 2889 x6258 (ph)  :  64-7-838 4417 (fax)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:12:30 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks 

> I seem to remember that in CT, the drop tanks were specially made for each class of
> ship.  A fueling port would need to have *lots* of different types of drop tanks on hand to
> be able to refuel *any* passing ship. For most corporate fueling starports would have tanks
> that were designed for their ships. The odds are that any spare tanks that they do have 
> would not fit your ship.

I'd assume any off the shelf drop tanks would be at corporate yards someplace, 
to fit the 2 or 3 classes of ships the corporados use in that particular area, 
with some variences in size for say, a jump1 set, a jump2 set, etc.

I'd also expect the local corporados to have, or have contracted for, a 
recovery tug to bring the empties back.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:16:17 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: surviving misjumps

Anthony Jackson wrote
>[Bruce wrote]
>> I think [iceballs in interstellar space] should be spectrally fairly distinctive; observations at
>> multiple wavelengths will give you the object's temperature, and you can
>> look for water ice and dust bands, too.

>Well, first of all the radiation the object emits won't be consistent with a
>temperature of 11K anyway, given the albedo of ice it will be more consistent
>with starlight filtered through water absorbtion bands (which, unfortunately,
>is also going to be the signature of quite a lot of stars), as it will reflect
>more than it emits. 

It'll reflect more than it emits at visible wavelengths...but by the time
you get into the far IR, it'll be emitting much more than it reflects.
The incoming starlight has essentially no energy out in the far-thermal-IR,
so all the far-thermal-IR will be the blackbody radiation from the iceball.
(Similar to the zodiacal dust, which has a "double-humped" spectrum - reflected
sunlight with a 6000 K blackbody shape, and thermal re-emission with a 300 K
blackbody shape.

>assuming 11K is legit, I didn't check
>the math on that, I think it's actually a bit high
That's sort of the canonical density these days for the "temperature of 
interstellar space" - ie the temperature a blackbody in interstellar space
will equilibriate to. (3 K for the cosmic background, the rest of the 
energy is diffuse starlight.) I might be off by a couple of degrees; it's
not a well-known number.

Note also that just because it's ice doesn't mean it's shiny and white; the
handful of Kuiper belt objects we have so far are fairly low albedo. No-one
knows what a bare comet nucleus looks like (though there were hints that
Halley was also quite dark.) The ice is dirty and also is affected by
exposure to cosmic rays and solar UV.

>giving it a visual
>magnitude of around +24.  There's probably at least 10^12 objects with a visual
>magnitude of +24 or higher....
Fortunately, you're trying to pick it out in the far thermal IR, where it's
much brighter than +24. In addition, you can use parallax to distinguish 
the iceball from background objects. (It's implicit in the Traveller sensor
model that sensor computers are capable of doing this; it's not an unimagineable
computational feat.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:29:54 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)

- -----Original Message-----
From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Brave, New World (Was Re: Repai)


>>
>>On Mon, 20 Apr 1998, Mark Urbin wrote:
>>
>>    Look at how small cell phones & PDA's are coming.
>
> Except I'd still have to carry my daytimer as well, because a
>PalmPilot just can't do everything it does as well as it does. Plus,
>I probably won't live to see a computer that can read my handwriting,
>especially when I'm in a hurry... (I average around 70% recognition)
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --

>
I actually have gotten away from most things except a micro cassette
recorder.  I make notes to myself all day long and review them at home with
MS Outlook running.  From there I just fill in the blanks. It helps me
tremendously.  Before that I would come home with my left pants front pocket
full of little notes to myself (my portable filing cabinet),  My next one
will be the digital one.
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:19:23 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:18:59 +0000
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Missiles
>
>Somebody care to refresh my memory on the cost and size of standard
anti-ship 
>missiles in CT?  I need costs on both nuke & non-nuke versions.
>
>And no I *DON'T* need figures on 'em from FFS2!!!!!!!
>
>Keven
>
>

LBB 2, 2d Ed, p. 17:

"Individual missiles weigh [sic] about 50 kg, and cost Cr5,000 each."

I can't find a price for missiles in HG, and I can't find my copy of
Special Suppliment 3.  Sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1925 15:37:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Assuming Hans' analysis is right, and I think it is, allowing the use of
>no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.
>
>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal tankage.

This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
forget they ever existed...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:40:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: anti-missle systems

Sam writes
>Let it be resurrected again!

Odds are we shouldn't bore the audience; anyone who's deeply curious can 
dig out the archives. Big Missiles certainly complicate life - whether they
dominate or not is hard to settle; Sam never reposted the designs, so 
we couldn't do a cost/benifit analysis. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:48:34 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: misjump survival

- -----Original Message-----
From: David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: misjump survival


>Misjumping should be something that even mention of strikes fear
>into the hearts of all who travel interstellar space.  Making it
>straightforward to survive cheapens it.  If you don't want your
>players dying, I would suggest it would be better to limit the
>possibility of their misjumping.
>
>If you don't want players getting killed in combat you make
>it so they don't get shot, not so that bullets to the brain
>are survivable.
>
>Summers@Alum.MIT.edu
>
We are NOT in disagreement on this. I just feel that its rarer than the odds
that have been posted when dealing with a misjump.  I stated in another post
that I have had PC's to die, it's the nature of the beast.  To kill the
whole party and to preface it with "I don't care what you do, you;re gonna
die" is a bit more than I want to chew on.  I would go so far as to save two
or three and sacrifice two or three to be able to keep the game going.
Maybe only using a coupla of the low births to conserve power.  BTW, if they
got into this position because they did something really stupid then (I said
this before too) they're rolling new characters.  One thing I don't put up
with is stupidity (read that as arrogance on the part of some PC's).  I had
a PC who got tired of his character.  Instead of retiring him he decided
that he would kill him off and bring in his "brother" to inherit his items
and money.  He never discussed this with me and when we got into it over
WHAT he did and he then told me why,  I decided that the medic got to him in
the nick of time and saved his life.  He was slightly crippled and horribly
scarred, bad limp, etc.  I made him play the PC for several more sessions
before I allowed him to retire.  When the time came to do that he changed
his mind because the character now had some CHARACTER and he liked him.  Go
figure....
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1925 15:47:50 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>The big problem with
>the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
>capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.

Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
is burned at....

> So long as you accept drop
>tanks as part of the canonical background technology, _almost all the
>hydrogen must be expended one way or the other before the ship enters jump
>space_.

Another note:  It has be to expended or stored in Capacitors.  Though
the latter only makes it easier to eliminate the need for the ship
to have it's own fuel.  (If you can blow away a drop tanks, you
can blow a cable away even easier).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 18:58:22 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Assorted

- -----Original Message-----
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Assorted


>>The ranks came about because of the
>>British rank of Field Marshal.  When the U.K decided to promote Monty to
FM
>>then the U.S. jumped in and promoted Generals Marshall, Smith, Eisenhower
>>and MacArthur.  This was begun in Jan 1945.  Marshall was the Chairman
JCOS
>>at the time and Eisenhower and Smith were in England.  MacArthur was in
>>Australia running the Pacific campaign.  Admirals Nimitz, King and Halsey
>>were the navies top dogs.
>>Thom
>
>Story has it that the title was originally to be Field Marshal, but
Marshall
>is said to have vetoed it, saying "Nobody is going to call me Marshal
>Marshall!"
>
>LKW
>
Hahaha, I believe that (considering Marshall's known ego [not as big as
MacArthur's though]).  It turns out the only U.S. General to hold the rank
of Field Marshal was General MacArthur.  When he retired from the U.S. Army
in 1932/3 he went to the Philippines and took over their Army.  His rank in
the Filipino Army was Field Marshal.  It was a rank he held until his death
bed in 1964 (at age 84).
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1925 16:01:41 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Re: Drop tanks

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:57:43 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
[stuff where I think we agree that drop tanks open the door to a
significant chance in how travel is conducted but that it could be
introduced as a new development and where we disagree on how favorably we
see that...]
>>but then you have to go through and have your setting playout all the
>>ramifications that would spin out from it.

>Agreed, but why is that a problem?

It is difficult.  More difficult than it seems.  Players keep coming
up with contridictions you didn't see ("why did they use it for
this but not for that?"  "Why does this organization/custom/technology
even exists"  "Why can't I use this adventure shortcircuiting
trick that you didn't realize could be done?") and it keeps
having ramifications that take the background in a way you didn't
expect.  Unless you are willing to spend considerable time
thinking about how as many different parts the background would
react (including second order social ramifications) I wouldn't
recommend it.

More importantly for some, is it where you want to go
with your campaign?  Do you want spend so much of your energies
exploring the ramifications of a fundamental techology changes?
Additionally, you would change the feel of the background which
many people like...

>>And then you have to decide you like the changes in the feel of the
>>setting that will result.

>Why is this different from having to decide if you like the Rebellion or
>the Hard Times or the Virus or the Reformation Coalition or any other
>historical chance in the Traveller background?

The Rebellion was not as fundamental change.  You still had the
some people doing things the same ways, their political motivations
just changed.  I can speak on Virus because I never used that background.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:09:52 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Traveller Codes

Eric Holmes wrote:
> 
> Aw nuts!  !@#$%^&*! Where'd I put that stoopid paper!
> 
> Okay fellow wing nuts.  I need a hand here.  I can't find the original TML
> message I printed out with the Traveller Codes and I deleted the messages
> from my PC files.  Then I saw a follow-on posting that insinuated there was
> a Web Page that had the codes and guess what, no web page was listed.
> 
> SOCORRO!  por favor!
> 
> Eric

http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller/imtu

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:31:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact?

of course, I cannot now remember where i read it, but I think this is the
one where they're really trying to get the science right, have hired real 
astronomers and (gasp) from all reports are _listening_ to them! There are
a couple of asteroid-impact movies coming out this year.

So this one might be good.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Volker A. Greimann wrote:

> Hi,
> Ive just seen a trailer for the movie "Deep Impact". Reminded me of those old falling
> rocks and meteorite discussions from a while back...
> Now the question? Is it any good? (Plot, Realism, etc).
> Should one go see it?
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 10 Apr 1925 16:32:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:59:17 +0000, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Not really.  Considering that 'fuelless jumps' would be probably
>restricted to
>either highly civilised areas or dedicated routes due to the fact that a
>Class
>C or worse port isn't likely to *HAVE* spare drop tanks around, I don't see
>how game balance is torqued.

I don't agree.  The main trade routes would all immediately change
over and one can well see something similar to the rural electrification
program to put "jump stations" in as many worlds as possible (the
mage corps will push for them).  And the you also have issue about
just using the jump stations to jump in the fuel you need to get
back.

When you alter fundamental aspects of how the background works,
it will have ramifications.

>The 'equipment used to move that fuel' has a technical term.  We call them
>'starships' around here.

Gee, and I thought the primary purpose of a ship was to move passengers
and cargo!

>And this of course in *NO* way gets the pcs off the hook for carrying their
>powerplant fuel.

Which is only a small fraction of jump fuel.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #428
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 429



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)
Re: Traveller Codes
High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Missiles
Re: Ma, the Glacier's Gone
re: Jump details
re: Jump details
Invasion: Earth
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Uplift
Re: Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)
Re: Drop Tanks
Tankers
Re: Jump Drives
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: "calibration points"
Invasion:Earth
re: anti-missle systems
Re: OT: Help DOS 4.0
Nuclear weapon data
re: Jump details
re: anti-missle systems

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 15:16:55 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>

> http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/21/electric.girl/
> 
> This woman can apparently affect electrical devices with her presence.

Inasmuch as our nervous systems are just continuous electrochemical
reactions, it's surprising that we don't see more electrical devices
affected by our presences.  I'm sure that copy machines, to give a
well-noted example, really do jam more frequently when the user is
frantic.  

This is a part of psionics that will be well documented and understood
by the time of the suppressions.   It's clairvoyance and teleportation
that will have the scientists stumped.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:56:46 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Traveller Codes

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> Eric Holmes wrote:
> >
> > Aw nuts!  !@#$%^&*! Where'd I put that stoopid paper!
> >
> > Okay fellow wing nuts.  I need a hand here.  I can't find the original TML
> > message I printed out with the Traveller Codes and I deleted the messages
> > from my PC files.  Then I saw a follow-on posting that insinuated there was
> > a Web Page that had the codes and guess what, no web page was listed.
> >
> > SOCORRO!  por favor!
> >
> > Eric
> 
> http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller/imtu
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

How  embarrassing.  This was a mistake, it is actually: 
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/imtu

 
- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:05:52 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: High Lightning deck plan key

I just got the maps to the Azhanti High Lightning (unfortunately, no supp 5 or
rule book).  Does anyone have a key to the maps?  I can figure out some of em,
but not all...  Thanx.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:27:38 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles

Keven wrote:

> Somebody care to refresh my memory on the cost and size of standard anti-ship 
> missiles in CT?  I need costs on both nuke & non-nuke versions.

I was able to dig up the following from Special Supplement 3, 
Missiles In:

"Standard missiles must be able to fit into a standardized 
shipping/launch container. The launch container is fitted directly 
to the launch rack and the missile is fired from it. The container 
includes integral test circuitry, provides protection from extremes 
of temperature and weather, and is isolated from the corrosive 
effects of atmosphere and moisture."
"The standard container is a cylinder with interior dimensions of one 
meter long and 15 centimeters in diameter."

<snip>

"A standard container will hold any missile of 50 kilograms or less; 
missiles in excess of 50 kilograms are unable to fit in standard 
missile containers, and thus in standard missile launch racks."

The rules go on to say, however, that missiles greater than 50kg can 
be launched from launch bays, but not turrets.

There's a whole system in this supplement that allows one to "grow 
their own" missiles component by component. The only example given of 
a "typical" missile is below:

5G5 Limited burn, radio sensing, proximity detonator, HE warhead 
missile. According to the rules, this missile would mass 50kg, and 
cost Cr15960 at TL9. It gets considerable cheaper at higher tech 
levels - I'll see if I can work out the numbers tomorrow (I'm too 
tired to work it out tonight).

I hope this helps a little. I can set up a spreadsheet using this 
system, if anyone is interested. 
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 03:27:47 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Ma, the Glacier's Gone

At 01:21 am 4/23/98 PST, you wrote:
>> Hmmm. This sounds like an excellent opportunity for someone to
make a fast
>> buck by offering tourist packages to the event, especially if
someone has
>> the inside running via the geology team on exactly when the
glacier is
>> going to crack.
>
>Well, a "long ways away" is an understatement. That flood scoured
out a
>good chunk of the Columbia River Basin! It dug channels modern
>engineers would rather not try to match *after* covering something
like
>300 miles!

	I wouldn't mind matching it, if PNEs weren't such a controversial
item ...

(PNE= Peaceful Nuclear Explosion. At one time, there was talk of
doing things like creating a replacement for the Panama canal using
'clean' nukes ...)
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:50:38 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Jump details

At 08:47 pm 4/23/98 +0100, you wrote:
>GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> wrote:
>
>>Dave said:
>>> If I recall correctly, several months ago Marc posted an email
>>> stating that T4.1 wouldn't define either way what "jump fuel" was
>>> used for, or how jumpspace worked
>>Something with which I concur...the notion that everything has to
be explained
>>to two significant digits has always been a minor irritation to me.
>>
>>LKW
>
>I actually agree. I posted the comment on FFS2 when someone was
launching
>into that famous number 'If a jump drive burns all the energy that
qickly
>why can't it be used for a weapon system'.
>
>Personally, I find the desire to explain everything in detail
irritating
>because (1) it's a game and (2) how on earth are we (TL8...) meant
to
>explain something as wonderous as a jump drive, which breaks
physical 

	The problem depends on the inventiveness, deviousness, and just
plain pervertedness of many players. It kind of helps to deal with
some of their strange ideas and solutions to problems you weren't
even aware existed, if you've got more of a handwave than "it's gotta
be liquid hydrogen, see, I don't care if you CAN get more hydrogen
atoms into a displacement ton of plain old water, it's gotta be pure
H2! And no, you cannot rewire the zuchai grid into the spinal mount!
And no, you cannot jump with just power, you've got to have the
hydrogen. I said pure $%&&@# hydrogen, $^%@ it!"

	No, not every gaming group needs or cares about it. But then,
neither does every gaming group really care about having a consistent
design. Some only care about cool deckplans. For others, you have to
have consistent design rules to guide and harness their ... urges.
("No, you cannot mount a 6G maneuver drive, J6, and 50% cargo volume
all in the same ship--it doesn't fit!")

	On the other hand, you have to be fairly careful about a handwave to
make sure it doesn't have ... unintended ... complications. HDrive
used to be fairly simple. Pour in refined fuel, push the button. Then
HG said you needed power as well, and told you you could store power
absorbed by black globes in part of the jump drive. Oh, and High
Guard also says that all the jump fuel is used at the beginning,
because if it's in a drop tank, you use it and then leave the drop
tank before entering jump.  Finally, along comes DGP, and now you're
fusing incredible amounts of hydrogen in extremely short time,
storing the energy, and then dumping it all out again quickly.

	Oh, and having some kind of explanation just adds to the color of
the game, and increases enjoyment.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:37:32 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Jump details

At 09:50 PM 23/04/98 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:

>	On the other hand, you have to be fairly careful about a handwave to
>make sure it doesn't have ... unintended ... complications. HDrive
>used to be fairly simple. Pour in refined fuel, push the button. Then
>HG said you needed power as well, and told you you could store power
>absorbed by black globes in part of the jump drive. Oh, and High
>Guard also says that all the jump fuel is used at the beginning,
>because if it's in a drop tank, you use it and then leave the drop
>tank before entering jump.  Finally, along comes DGP, and now you're
>fusing incredible amounts of hydrogen in extremely short time,
>storing the energy, and then dumping it all out again quickly.

I did a quick calculation a while back, and unless I was out in my maths
there's no practical beam weapon that would overload even a relatively
small jump drive's HPG's, and just about any ship can easily consume the
power that's stored. After working this out I came to the conclusion that
TL15 warships would all have Black Globes, and who cares if nobody at Tl-15
really knows how they work. Even a 40% flicker rate is pretty good,
especially given their stealth applications.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 01:38:44 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Invasion: Earth

I just got it.  It's a pretty cool game!  Was the system original to this game
or taken (or updated) from another?  Two things are lacking, though... deep
sight meson guns and jump troops.  Jump troops are easily added, i think, by
just having some of the armored infantry be able to land anywhere during the
landing phase.  Probably put a max at the batallion level.  What does everyone
think?  And what would be the best way to allow Deep Sights? Probably put at
least 2 on Terra.  Just give them an attack value and pd unit there?  

When were Deep Sights and Jump troops invented anyway?  I'm assuming they came
after I:E ('81)... that or it's an oversight.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:37:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

In mail you write:

> Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>Assuming Hans' analysis is right, and I think it is, allowing the use of
>>no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.
>>
>>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
>>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
>>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal 
> tankage.
>
> This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
> forget they ever existed...

The thing is, drop tanks exist *now* for aircraft, and for vehicles
like the Space Shuttle. It's not *reasonable* to assume that the idea
will just be forgotten. So people will be trying drop tanks for
carrying *extra* fuel almost from the start.

If we go with the huge consumption rate for the J-drive, it's not
especially practical to feed the J-drive from the drop tanks. But it
*is* practical to pump fuel at a high (but not high enough to feed the
J-drive) rate from the drop tanks to the ship's tanks. You'll be
lagging behind the fuel consumption, but if (as I recall) you can delay
jump for long enough to finish emptying the drop tanks, then you can
jettison them and jump with full tanks. 

They are also useful *if* you can jump with them attached, as then they
let you cross an area where you can't refuel. Say you are a J3 ship and
can only make j2 with the tanks attached. That *still* lets you cover a
4 or 5 parsec "gap" without refueling.

Frankly, I don't think that using drop tanks *instead* of internal
tankage is all that great an idea. It makes the ship *too* specialized.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:39:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Uplift

CardSharks wrote:

[snip]

> Introduce steam power for ships and land railways. Industry, steel making,
> large corporations, research and development, higher standard of living,
> consumer demand, and ultimately everything else follows.
>
> Marc Miller

  These are all key elements but one big boost to overall productivity will come
from increasing your population base.  Cheap and abundant food, medical care,
etc.  Not only do you extend the working life of laborers, you create more
laborers.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:45:39 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Who says psionics doesn't exist ;-)

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> > From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>
> > http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9804/21/electric.girl/
> >
> > This woman can apparently affect electrical devices with her presence.
>
> Inasmuch as our nervous systems are just continuous electrochemical
> reactions, it's surprising that we don't see more electrical devices
> affected by our presences.

Have you all see the new toys that can let you effectively use your mind as
a joystick for a computer game?  You put a finger in a little device, and
the computer will react to your thoughts.  I tried this on a demo that
involved a snoe skiing game.  To move left, you think "left," and "right"
for right, of course.  The materials said to repeat or stress the thoat for
more dramatic turning.  I was quite suprised to see that it really did
work.  I was skeptical so I placed my hand and the finger with the reader on
a flat surface, and even had my brother hold my hand down.  Still worked.
Then I tried steering in the wrong direction.  Still worked.  Makes me think
that Psionic Flick controls should be available to a much wider range of
people than those whose potential has been activated.  Unless, of course,
we're all willing to assume I've already awakened my psionic potential?  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:23:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks
>
>Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
...
>>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
>>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
>>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal tankage.
>
>This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
>forget they ever existed...

  I don't see an incompatibility here. You've rightly pointed out the
hassles with the ramifications of drop tanks that refs might not want
to face. Ians option merely allows so-called "drop-tanks" to function
like demountable tanks, except that being external they increase the
L-Hyd needed for each Jump number.

  EG - a 400 ton ship with J-2 tankage internally, and other integral
spaces full wants to cross a 3 parsec gulf with no possible refuelling
points. Rather than charter a mini-tanker to go J-1 with it, they buy
off the rack tank shells to add the needed tankage - about 60 Dt (?).
At the other end they presumably recover some of the tanks costs (rent
a drop-tank franchises?).

  Thus no real free ride is achieved (particularly as the ship will
suffer drive performance reductions (to J-1 or J-1.7?).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:23:22 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Tankers

>Or, seed a few gas giants with 400-600 dt SDB's to deny any possible 
>wilderness refueling by the enemy.  Assuming the dtf's will take with them a 
>tanker/tender to make them fuel for the next jump, deny it the GG & you've 
>just stopped the resupply and advance.  I don't see heavily armed tankers as 
>something a naval architect would come up with...

  Depends. In HG you can build a heavy armed tanker really easily.
Hardpoints are free, maxing out all turrets only takes up 1% of the
ship, and having no use for Agility you have at least available EP's
equal to 1% of the ships tonnage (actually, J#% x mass). You might
as well buy a huge computer, anyway - the cost is nil compared to
the drives themselves.

  So it probably turns out that the canonical sub-1000 Dt SDB's can
_only_ hurt a tanker when it's skimming (which we don't yet have the
special rules on, IIRC).

  OTOH, the logical (and not uncanonical) battle-rider sized SDB's
can gut such a tanker effortlessly unless faced with a n escorting
battlesquadron.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:23:14 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

[forwared message from a TMler who can't post]

>> >Another problem with this approach is that it makes you completely
>> >incapable of jury-rigging something using the jump drive.  What happens
>> >when the players crash on a planet and want to know what they can make
>> >from the jump drive...  Surely you could do something with it given
>> >a source of fuel.  What parts does it break down into?  Having access to
>> >incredibly energy-dense capacitors could be very useful, if that's what
>> >is there...
>> >
>>
>> This is part of the reason some of us like the "jump ballast" theory - if
>> there are incredible-efficiency capacitors or a higher-efficiency power
>> plant lurking inside jump drives, why arent they used in other
>>applications ?
>
>IMTU, the Zochai crystal was the power storage behind high energy ship's
>lasers & such, anywhere a quick high energy pulse was needed.

The main reason Zuccai crystals wont be used elsewhere is simple: discharge
rate is an exact multiple of charge rate.... so if you have a rate over
time (sequence of hex following) 111333aaa222fff235cc9 as input energies,
you get out 13a2f3b at triple the output, assuming a digitalized recording
and a three to one compression ratio. [Starship operators manual.] Combine
that with short (<1 hour till they get damaged &/or explode), and you have
a dangerous, limited application devise that isn't even particularly good
for lasers.

I have always used the Burn it all school of thought. How do I justify
this? 10% efficiency of the JD burning, with the rate being some 1000 times
more fuel, plus the need for sudden spikes to put your tumbles in right,
and to get things going ... also explains the need for fairly pure h2...
other stuff will have its energy spikes transmitted to the Zuccai Crystals,
multiplied (I use a x1000 watts, time /1000 factor for ZC's, and 3g3's dv
conversion for damage from exploding ZC's....) and fed to the  drive. risky
jumping (damaged drives or insufficient prep time) involves taking the
power rectifiers off line, so you have just fuel flow to work with in
setting up the correct pulse stream to the crystals. The crystals, oncce
charged (for good or bad) hold the jump course as well. Connect the grid
and fire!

William F. Hostman
<Mailto:Aramis@asylumbbs.com><http://local.uaa.alaska.edu/~aswfh>
<Mailto:ASWFH@UAA.ALASKA.EDU>
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 16:26:36 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

> Location:  Glendale, AZ
> Founding date:  12/97
> Group size:  4-10
> Number of referees:  1, me
> Health:  Not Dead, Yet.
> Predominant rules system:  MT & PCCS-Lite
> Campaign location:  GM's Sick & Twisted Universe
> Campaign time:  2180 AD
> E-mail contact:  See the Sig.
> Rob

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 00:58:07 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

Hello,
>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 11:56:46 -0700
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: detecting brown dwarfs with sensors
...
>(A big science/military sensor - like the one I put on my March THUDD
>design - could see these things out to 100000AU; it could basically chart
>all the "free jupiters" in a hex in a couple of weeks and a couple of jumps.
>
>A sub-message is that free jupiters therefore have to be pretty rare, 
>otherwise everyone would use them during wartime - most likely the
>handful of "calibration points" in the Regency represent almost all the
>free jupiters. 

  One related thing that bothers me is how badly does the military
history of the background match up with the ability to effortlessly
establish deep space supply depots wherever you like?

  If every hex on the friendly side of the border can have cannisters
of reloads and LHyd, then the issue may very well arise of building
your SDB's as J-1 starships - they can exfiltrate/infiltrate at will
during the strategic time frame. Also, your own Intruders can rip the
hell out of enemy supply lines at will - build it so it always has
the fuel to Jump away to a cache if it meets an escorting CruRon;
this actually could explain why the Solomani Rim War was so hard for
the 3I, although it doesn't supply a technical explanation of why the
Imperial Azhanti's (et al) didn't stop the original Solomani advance
just across the start line.

  Forget Nemesis (?) Intruders, how the heck did the Zho's get past
CP-based FI's in the FFW?

  And while we're at it, this allows any patient party (including
potentially hostile fleetss, and Vampire ships) to stage cache
construction across "borders", rifts, or whatever. Not a very
stable situation, as it seems to be a classic model of a first
strike scenario.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 05:32:31 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Invasion:Earth

Well... after reading more thoroughly, i can answer my own questions. : ) It
looks like I:E is based on Fifth Frontier War...(which also appear, in a form,
in Imperial Squadrons).  Knew I'd seen it in Imperial Squadrons, too.  I kinda
woulda liked IG to have made some counters, but I shudder to think of how they
would've come out...
I also see there are jump troops in I:E, there's just no rules for using them,
it seems... haven't checked Imperial Squadrons... oh well... 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 02:55:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: anti-missle systems

Hello,
>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:50:23 -0500
>From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
>Subject: re: anti-missle systems
...
>In a combat where big armored super fast missiles are being used(Bubba
>being an extreme example), the PD laser will have to engage at a range
>prior to the missiles deploying its payload. The missile will be trying to
>deploy it's payload prior to *effective* engagement range of the target's
>PD lasers. Reason most KKM and Prox nuke missiles will have mass multitudes
>of Magic BB's or Nuke warheads for the PD laser to *effectively* deal with
>within the time envelope of the engagement. If too many multiple warhead
>payloads get deployed it will cause *overload* of the target's PD lasers.

  IIRC, the last (interminable) debate on Trav-Tech indicated that the
dispersion of pellets at economically survivable (forget "safe") ranges
meant that even a big slow cow of a ship would take a very reasonable
number of hits, and even then the system only works courtesy of the
magic bus thruster system. Can this work at all well with HePLAR?

>Remember that "Bubba" was a reusable missile, essentially a robot fighter,
>not for use as a KKM missile itself.

  As you indicated, a layered defense will help. The simple inclusion
of an escort (or fighter) with an anti-ship laser should kill the drone
before it can dump on a capital ship. Also, a counter-KKM of much smaller
proportions would require escorts for the drones.

  Effectively all cases of this debate have centered around "lone capital
ship with no drones/fighters/escorts/consorts/pets", which seems counter-
intuitive to building an effective defense array.

  As soon as someone starts running through the targetting solutions
again could this subject be Turned successfully and banished to Trav-Tech?

  Where's a high-level cleric when you need one... :)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 04:59:32 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Help DOS 4.0

suzd@pop.goodnet.com wrote:
> 
> I apologize for the off topic plea for help, but...
> 
> I'm trying to help a friend with an ancient laptop running DOS 4.0.
> The autoexec.bat file (unchanged since 1985) is producing an error
> message referencing an invalid switch. The line in question is
> telling the machine where LPT1 is and the machine won't, obviously,
> print.
> 
> Any clues?
> 
> Thanks in advance...
> 
> Suz


I need to know the EXACT syntax of the error, and the line in the
autoexec.bat file, that causes it.  I still have my old DOS 4.0 books.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:56:00 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Nuclear weapon data

Somebody posted some stuff about something here and included a link to a
VERY informative and site dealing with the physics of nuclear weaponry. My
machine crashed before I saved the link and the post got lost for the same
reason.

Could somebody please repost it or mail the URL to me directly whatever is
more convenient.
ObTrav I'm going to put my players in a minsghaft with ticking nuke 2 km
down the shaft. I'm interested in what effect the bomb will have on the
research base sitting on top of the shaft (what will happen to my PCs I can
figure out myself ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:59:17 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Jump details

>Personally, I find the desire to explain everything in detail irritating
>because (1) it's a game and (2) how on earth are we (TL8...) meant to
>explain something as wonderous as a jump drive, which breaks physical laws
>as we know them... But then, I happily use ships from all four editions...
>if you've got the acceleration, the jump number and a couple of other
>figures what else do you need?
>
>IIRC Jump drive works using the scientific principle of 'necessary plot
>device' to move players between the stars....
>
>Dom


There are two kinds of people:
1 Those that think about an item in terms of what it does.
2 Those that think about an item in terms of how it does it.
Me and my players suffer from being in group two and therefore have to
know/handwave lots of stuff in Traveller in order to suspend disbelief.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:06:31 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: re: anti-missle systems

At 02:55 AM 4/24/98 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>Hello,
>>Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 12:50:23 -0500
>>From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
>>Subject: re: anti-missle systems
>...
>>In a combat where big armored super fast missiles are being used(Bubba
>>being an extreme example), the PD laser will have to engage at a range
>>prior to the missiles deploying its payload. The missile will be trying to
>>deploy it's payload prior to *effective* engagement range of the target's
>>PD lasers. Reason most KKM and Prox nuke missiles will have mass multitudes
>>of Magic BB's or Nuke warheads for the PD laser to *effectively* deal with
>>within the time envelope of the engagement. If too many multiple warhead
>>payloads get deployed it will cause *overload* of the target's PD lasers.
>
>  IIRC, the last (interminable) debate on Trav-Tech indicated that the
>dispersion of pellets at economically survivable (forget "safe") ranges
>meant that even a big slow cow of a ship would take a very reasonable
>number of hits, and even then the system only works courtesy of the
>magic bus thruster system. Can this work at all well with HePLAR?

Yes a slow big ship could take several hits and still be functional but
would any external features of the hull in use still be effective?

Well I remember someone did design some Helplar missiles of a crudely
similar performance, fast, small, and alot cheaper than the Bubba. But no
attempt was made at armoring such, but it could be done, with *some* effect
upon performance.

>>Remember that "Bubba" was a reusable missile, essentially a robot fighter,
>>not for use as a KKM missile itself.
>
>  As you indicated, a layered defense will help. The simple inclusion
>of an escort (or fighter) with an anti-ship laser should kill the drone
>before it can dump on a capital ship. Also, a counter-KKM of much smaller
>proportions would require escorts for the drones.
>
>  Effectively all cases of this debate have centered around "lone capital
>ship with no drones/fighters/escorts/consorts/pets", which seems counter-
>intuitive to building an effective defense array.

Well some of the debates have taken into account multiple ship/missile
swarm conflicts. They were most interesting.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997-98 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #429
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Friday, April 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 430



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Uplift
Changing the background (Was: Drop tanks)
Re: Uplift 
Population attitudes
Re: Jump details
RE: Invasion: Earth
Re: Drop Tanks
What if a comet hit...
Re: Population attitudes
Project Dulinor
RE: High Lightning deck plan key
Classic 4 Sale...
Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)
Re: "calibration points"
Re: What if a comet hit...
Active Traveller Campaign List; Minor Corporation List
RE: Jump details

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:26:10 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Uplift

In a message dated 98-04-24 02:41:57 EDT, you write:

<<   These are all key elements but one big boost to overall productivity will come
 from increasing your population base.  Cheap and abundant food, medical care,
 etc.  Not only do you extend the working life of laborers, you create more
 laborers.  >>

Increasing poopulation base by itself does practically nothing (ie, China).
Measured increases coupled with improved standards of living, enough food,
medical care, and a puritan work ethic is a great support oof increasing
technology.

BTW, one theory is that alternating current fields increase intelligence.
Track the places where AC wiring is installed and you can see its effects. So
I would try to introduce electricity as early as possible, and then promote
electrification.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:28:35 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Changing the background (Was: Drop tanks)

Lloyd Robinson writes:
>I seem to remember that in CT, the drop tanks were specially made for each
>class of ship.

Yes, and that is something to keep in mind. Just because the PCs is at a
system where, say, Tukera maintains a drop tank fuel station for its own
ships it dosen't follow that the station will have drop tanks that fits
the PCs' ship. Nor does it follow that they will sell them the fuel at a
discount. Nor will the PCs be able to take full advantage of drop tanks,
because they woun't be able to use their fuel tanks for cargo space even
if they are empty.

OTOH, if the PCs' ship is one of the standard designs they could well be
in luck. The cost of a set of drop tanks can be recouped if the company
sells just a few loads per year.

>A fueling port would need to have *lots* of different types of drop tanks on
>hand to be able to refuel *any* passing ship. For most corporate fueling
>starports would have tanks that were designed for their ships. The odds
>are that any spare tanks that they do have would not fit your ship.

Drop tanks would be used only by ships that regularily visit the system
(and provided the ship's route dosen't include any system where drop tanks
are not available).

David P. Summers writes:

>Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
>>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
>>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal
>tankage.
> 
>This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
>forget they ever existed...

This has an arbitrary feel. I think it would be best just to accept them
as part of the Traveller background as they have always been.
 
David also writes:

>>Agreed, but why is that a problem?
> 
>It is difficult.  More difficult than it seems.  Players keep coming
>up with contridictions you didn't see ("why did they use it for this
>but not for that?"  "Why does this organization/custom/technology even
>exists"  "Why can't I use this adventure shortcircuiting trick that you
>didn't realize could be done?") and it keeps having ramifications that
>take the background in a way you didn't expect.

All very true, but this is true anyway. The Traveller background is full
of bits and pieces that don't seem to fit. The trick is then to come up
with an explanation why they fit after all. I know you think that such
after-the-fact explanations seems contrived, and that you dislike them. I
can't say that I agree with you 100%. In many cases I find that IF you can
come up with a resonable explanation, then it serves to _increase_ the
versimilitude of the background. Still, I wouldn't have minded if Marc
Miller had spent a few million man-hours working out a perfectly designed
and fully logical game universe before he published the first Traveller
books. However, the fact is that he didn't. So we are left to cope as best
we can.

You advocate erasing drop tanks from the game universe retroactively. This
is potentially just as disrupting to other people's backgrounds as keeping
them. Suddenly something that has been possible for the whole campaign is
no longer possible. Now you have players asking "Why can't our Gazelle use
drop tanks like we did when we cunningly escaped from the Islands Cluster?"
"I'm sorry, it turns out that drop tanks don't work, so you never escaped."

>Unless you are willing to spend considerable time thinking about how as
>many different parts the background would react (including second order
>social ramifications) I wouldn't recommend it.

Or you could set your campaign in an area where drop tanks either have not
yet had time to become an intregral part of the commercial network or has
been unable to function due to unsettled conditions. Let me reccommend the
Spinward Marches in the Classic Era or everywhere except the Safes in the 
Rebellion Era or almost everywhere during Hard Times or everywhere except
the Regency in the New Era or everywhere in every milieu prior to year 1000.

>More importantly for some, is it where you want to go with your campaign?
>Do you want spend so much of your energies exploring the ramifications of
>a fundamental techology changes?

No, I'd prefer someone else doing it for me. The whole point of trying to
maintain a canon (to me, that is) is that it increases the chance that I
can use stuff produced by other people in my own campaigns. Say for
example that you produce and publish a humdinger of an adventure.
Unfortunately the bulk of the plot hinges on the fact that the PCs have to
cross a particular stretch of empty space, so they absolutely have to get
the location of a deep space fuel cache from an NPC who use that to make
them perform some service for him, etc. If I tried to use that on my PCs,
they would just go down to the spaceport and order a set of drop tanks.
End of adventure... And if I publish an adventure that deals with, say,
a company war touched off by this underdog company trying to set up a
drop tank operation and undercut the established freight companies in
this medium-pop system, you won't be able to use it, however much you
like it.

It's true that in many cases I can extract bits and pieces from such
an adventure, but the further the adventure is from my background, the
more work it is for me. Work that I would much prefer spending on
detailing parts of the background that no one else has touched upon.

>Additionally, you would change the feel of the background which
>many people like...

How would it change the feel? I think I have demonstrated that using
drop tanks to cut the cost of freight and passage will only be feasable
for regular, established freighters and liners. So drop tanks makes it
difficult for tramp ships to compete along major trade routes. Just as
it has always been assumed that it was and just as it would be even
without drop tanks. What other major ramifications can you think of?
 
>>>And then you have to decide you like the changes in the feel of the
>>>setting that will result.
> 
>>Why is this different from having to decide if you like the Rebellion or
>>the Hard Times or the Virus or the Reformation Coalition or any other
>>historical chance in the Traveller background?
> 
>The Rebellion was not as fundamental change.

ROTFL!

I think you've let your argumentative enthusiasm run away with you here.
You can't possibly mean that seriously. Or, if you do, you will have to
come up with some examples of how drop tanks will change Traveller society
more than a full-fledged Imperium-spanning war will.

And he also writes:

>Thu, 23 Apr 1998 13:59:17 +0000, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>>Not really.  Considering that 'fuelless jumps' would be probably restricted
>>to either highly civilised areas or dedicated routes due to the fact that a
>>Class C or worse port isn't likely to *HAVE* spare drop tanks around, I
>>don't see how game balance is torqued.
> 
>I don't agree. The main trade routes would all immediately change over

David, what evidence do you have that the major trade routes haven't already
changed over? Not the economic system, because that is already completely
broken. In fact, I could argue that drop tanks make the uniform freight and
passenger rates somewhat more plausible (without drop tanks the cost of a
jump-6 is a factor 8 or 9 more than a jump-1; with drop tanks the difference
is only a factor 2 or so). Most of the freight and passenger ships with
internal fuel tanks that we've seen haveen working routes with systems too
small to support drop tank operations. It's true that we've never seen a ship
without internal tankage (though some has been mentioned in TNS), but that is
merely negative evidence.

>and one can well see something similar to the rural electrification program
>to put "jump stations" in as many worlds as possible (the mega corps will
>push for them).

Maybe they will. Or maybe they will prefer to change over slowly so that they
can get full use of the fleet of ships with internal tankage that they already
have. After all, you can't sell drop tanks to ships who can't take advantage
of the added cargo space.

>And the you also have issue about just using the jump stations to jump in
>the fuel you need to get back.

That one I didn't get. What do you mean?

>When you alter fundamental aspects of how the background works, it will have
>ramifications.

You mean, like the fundamental change of making drop tanks not work? >;)

Seriously, when you explore ramifications that the original authors failed
to explore for themselves, you will often run into changes in your
perception of how the background works. Is that a reason to change the
original concept? Sometimes, yes. I'd certainly like to change quite a
lot of the economic system, for example. But you should change an original
concept only when absolutely necessary. And I don't think that applies in
this case. 
 
>>And this of course in *NO* way gets the pcs off the hook for carrying their
>>powerplant fuel.
> 
>Which is only a small fraction of jump fuel.

And completely irrelevant in any case, since the standard PC ship is not
going to be in a position to use drop tank fuel in most cases, anyway.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:42:04 +0000
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift 

> 
> 
> CardSharks wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > Introduce steam power for ships and land railways. Industry, steel making,
> > large corporations, research and development, higher standard of living,
> > consumer demand, and ultimately everything else follows.
> >
> > Marc Miller
> 
>   These are all key elements but one big boost to overall productivity will come
> from increasing your population base.  Cheap and abundant food, medical care,
> etc.  Not only do you extend the working life of laborers, you create more
> laborers.

Steam tractors and crop rotation, along with disease-resistant grains.  
That'll give you your population boost and allow the landlocked people to 
migrte to your cities to work in the new factories.

Keven

==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:03:30 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Population attitudes

In World Builders Handbook there are several areas where the 
populations attitudes are mapped. Can anyone give me the 
different areas, the different attitudes and maybe a passage
or two on the rules concernig them?


Thanks
Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:19:42 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

Anders Backman wrote:

> >Personally, I find the desire to explain everything in detail irritating
> >because (1) it's a game and (2) how on earth are we (TL8...) meant to
> >explain something as wonderous as a jump drive, which breaks physical laws
> >as we know them... But then, I happily use ships from all four editions...
> >if you've got the acceleration, the jump number and a couple of other
> >figures what else do you need?
> >
> >IIRC Jump drive works using the scientific principle of 'necessary plot
> >device' to move players between the stars....
> >
> >Dom
>
> There are two kinds of people:
> 1 Those that think about an item in terms of what it does.
> 2 Those that think about an item in terms of how it does it.
> Me and my players suffer from being in group two and therefore have to
> know/handwave lots of stuff in Traveller in order to suspend disbelief.

I'd like to add that people in group one should stay out of this argu... err...
discussion, as they are already happy. I'd likewise suggest that an entire
group of type ones should stay off ships.  i.e. if the adventure takes them off
planet, they should book some rooms on a liner and then POOF, they appear on
the next planet.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 09:31:07 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Invasion: Earth

TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>

>I just got it.  It's a pretty cool game!  Was the system original to this game
>or taken (or updated) from another?  Two things are lacking, though... deep
>sight meson guns and jump troops.  Jump troops are easily added, i think,
>by just having some of the armored infantry be able to land anywhere during
>the landing phase.  Probably put a max at the batallion level.  What does
>everyone think?  And what would be the best way to allow Deep Sights?
>Probably put at least 2 on Terra.  Just give them an attack value and pd unit
>there?  
>
>When were Deep Sights and Jump troops invented anyway?  I'm assuming
>they came after I:E ('81)... that or it's an oversight.
>
>Gary

Hmm..look up the TL at which ship-mountedmeson guns can reach close
orbit range while doing decent amounts of damage. At this TL or the one
_before_, they become militarily viable enough for planetary defense.

Keep in mind that a PD meson battery can be less efficient than a
ship-mounted one and still be effective because the engineers have
so much more room to play with.

To account for their lack in I:E, I've always assumed that they were
taken out *previous* to the time of the actual game. For the game or
*any* planetary invasion to even be considered, all PD meson batteries
_must_ be neutralized first.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:31:12 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> >>Assuming Hans' analysis is right, and I think it is, allowing the use of
> >>no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.
> >>
> >>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
> >>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
> >>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal
> > tankage.
> >
> > This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
> > forget they ever existed...
>
> The thing is, drop tanks exist *now* for aircraft, and for vehicles
> like the Space Shuttle. It's not *reasonable* to assume that the idea
> will just be forgotten. So people will be trying drop tanks for
> carrying *extra* fuel almost from the start.
>

The argument isn't whether or not Drop Tanks exist. Its burning all the fuel
immediately that is the issue.  In the example of the space shuttle, the drop
tank feeds  the shuttle's engine and stays with the shuttle during most of the
lift phase.  The analogy to jump drop tanks would be dumping them at about half
a parsec out or more.

> If we go with the huge consumption rate for the J-drive, it's not
> especially practical to feed the J-drive from the drop tanks. But it
> *is* practical to pump fuel at a high (but not high enough to feed the
> J-drive) rate from the drop tanks to the ship's tanks. You'll be
> lagging behind the fuel consumption, but if (as I recall) you can delay
> jump for long enough to finish emptying the drop tanks, then you can
> jettison them and jump with full tanks.
>

Internal or drop tanks, that consumption rate is outrageous: TRILLIONS of Mj per
100 dTons of ship.  More for greater than jump 1.

> They are also useful *if* you can jump with them attached, as then they
> let you cross an area where you can't refuel. Say you are a J3 ship and
> can only make j2 with the tanks attached. That *still* lets you cover a
> 4 or 5 parsec "gap" without refueling.
>

This is perfectly fine.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:38:31 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: What if a comet hit...

In the previous comet discussion a question occured to me. But there was
enough verbiage going around I thought I would save it till later. Well,
it's later.
There were different scenarios depicted for a comet striking land, striking
sea, or breaking up into smaller sections and striking several areas.
What if the comet struck the moon? Would this likely have any catastrophic
effect from debris, large cracks, mammoth tides or gravity waves. Or would
we just see a new crater the next day?

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:25:31 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Population attitudes

At 04:03 PM 4/24/98 +0200, you wrote:
>
>In World Builders Handbook there are several areas where the 
>populations attitudes are mapped. Can anyone give me the 
>different areas, the different attitudes and maybe a passage
>or two on the rules concernig them?

Progressiveness:
Attitude:
Radical
Progressive
Conservative
Reactionary

Action:
Enterprising
Advancing
Indifferent
Stagnant

High population worlds are more likely to be low on the scale.

Aggressiveness:
Attitude:
Expansionistic
Competitive
Unaggressive
Passive

Action:
Militant
Neutral
Peaceable
Conciliatory

Extensiveness:
Global:
Monolithic
Harmonious
Discordant
Fragmented

Balkanized and Passive worlds tend to be at the low end of the scale.

Interstellar:
Xenophilic
Friendly
Aloof
Xenophobic

Starport and the Prog-Attitude scores are the big factor.

- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:27:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Project Dulinor

Does anyone know the current status of The Traveller Suite?
- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:39:14 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: High Lightning deck plan key

I am pretty sure I have 2 copies of Supplement 5 floating around my
collection . . .  I'll check this weekend, if I remember.

Brian


>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>[mailto:owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM]On Behalf Of TravelrTNE
>Sent: Thursday, April 23, 1998 5:06 PM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: High Lightning deck plan key
>
>
>I just got the maps to the Azhanti High Lightning (unfortunately,
>no supp 5 or
>rule book).  Does anyone have a key to the maps?  I can figure out
>some of em,
>but not all...  Thanx.
>
>Gary
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:31:38 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Classic 4 Sale...

I've the following 'classic' Traveller odds & ends for sale (NOT auction).
Postage is included for sales in the US, add an additional $2.00 for
anywhere else.

2 'Official' "Traveller dice" - mint condition. $10
"COACC" - very good condition. $5
"Amycus Probe" - shrink-wrapped - mint condition. $5
"Marooned on Ghostring" - shrink-wrapped - mint condition. $5
"Known-Space" poster - near mint condition. $5
"World-Builders" poster - near mint condition. $5
"Aliens" handout - very good condition. $3
"The Adjutant" #1, 2, 3, 6, and 10. - all mint/near mint condition. $7 each.
"Memory Alpha" handout - I got this from Marc - it's signed, but seems to be 
                         a photocopy. (I'll throw this in free with the first sale.)
"Subsidized Merchant" 25mm deckplans - near mint. $14
Tales of the Concordat:
        1) "The Empires Legacy" - very good condition. $5
        2) "Voyage of the Planetslayer" - near mint condition. $5
Best of White Dwarf Scenarios II: (3 Trav. articles) - good condition. $8
        "Sorry!"
        "Weed War"
        "Amber to Red"


L8r,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com
[Sanders]
email=Ptimmon@swlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:50:43 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

> Rupert Boleyn posted:
>
>I did a quick calculation a while back, and unless I was out in my maths
>there's no practical beam weapon that would overload even a relatively
>small jump drive's HPG's, and just about any ship can easily consume the
>power that's stored.

'Scuse me? Last time I checked, almost any spinal mount would blow
away any scout/merchantship with a black globe. I don't have my
books with me, though, to confirm. I do remember having to add
capacitors in MT and TNE to ship designs which could be taking
meson fire in order to boost (not guarantee) their survival.

> After working this out I came to the conclusion that
>TL15 warships would all have Black Globes, and who cares if nobody at Tl-15
>really knows how they work. Even a 40% flicker rate is pretty good,
>especially given their stealth applications.

The problem, though, is that TL15 black globes built by the Imperium
have a *10%* flicker rate (see High Guard, the Kinunir adventure, and
MT's Referee's Manual).

The 40% devices you mention are Ancient artifacts which are limited in
number to 100 or so and are tightly controlled/guarded by the IN.
Only some of them are actually installed in ships at the time of
Twilight's Peak (early 1100's) and these, IMO, are on selected
battlewagons and command ships...and the vessels guarding the
Ancient site in which they were discovered (also probably BBs).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:55:27 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

>  One related thing that bothers me is how badly does the military
>history of the background match up with the ability to effortlessly
>establish deep space supply depots wherever you like?

The fact that thrusters only work at a very very low level in free space
complicates things somewhat; even maneuvering from a typical 30,000km
jump error to the station may take a day or so. Such stations - and the ships
using them - are incredibly vulnerable to kinetic energy attack, because 
they can't evade. (Run your ship up to several thousand km/s inside a 
system, jump to the target station so that your vector is point at it, and
release a swarm of missiles with reaction drives for final targeting.)
As an added bonus, since interstellar space is so dark (no passive/visible
signature), anything that isn't powered up is effectively undetectable until
it gets in active sensor range - and if the station is using active sensors,
it's given away its position to anyone within a parsec. HEPlaR-powered 
warships could also carve such a station and the attendent fleet to pieces,
since the HEPlaR ship can hit the stationary station at extremely long 
ranges while evading all return fire. The defender can give their main
fleet auxilliary HEPlaR engines - but that wastes space and fuel, making
them less combat-capable when they get in system.

Basically, free-space calibration points are only of use if they used
completely by surprise.

One (very minor) tweak we could add to make them less useful is to increas
the size of jump errors when you come out of jump in empty space - make it
a few hundred thousand or even million km, and it'll take weeks for a ship
to refuel. (That makes the stations harder to attack, though.) Or make
thrusters completely useless rather than partially useless under
these conditions, and make HEPlaR engines bulkier so there's a significant
penalty to carrying an aux engine.

Calibration points based on free-floating gas giants will be immune to most
of these problems - which is fine, as long as we make free-floating gas
giants rare.

(Personally I believe free-floating jupiters are about as common as normal
in-system jupiters (ejected during the early history of planet formation)
but I'm willing to pretend otherwise.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:39:14 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: What if a comet hit...

On Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:38:31 +0100 Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com writes:
>In the previous comet discussion a question occured to me. But there was
>enough verbiage going around I thought I would save it till later. Well,
>it's later.
>There were different scenarios depicted for a comet striking land, striking
>sea, or breaking up into smaller sections and striking several areas.
>What if the comet struck the moon? Would this likely have any catastrophic
>effect from debris, large cracks, mammoth tides or gravity waves. Or would
>we just see a new crater the next day?


In order for any significant debris (significant = anything big enough to
worry about) the comet would need to, if I remember correctly, somewhere
near 1/4 or 1/3 the diameter of the moon, in order to knock off material
with enough velocity to escape the moon's gravity


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: 24 Apr 1998 12:03 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaign List; Minor Corporation List

The Active Traveller Campaign list is up at:

metronet.com/~washi/Tas/ATC/index.html

It may move tonight: I may create a page to refer to all of
my lists: the ATC, the Minor Corporation list, TAP, and the IMTU
code.  If I do, it will probably be 
metronet.com/~washi/Tas/Lists/index.html  (not yet existent)

The campaign list has doubled in size since I put it up so I'll have
to update it tonight anyway.

While I'm on the subject of lists, I'd also like to request info
on any minor corporations you-all may have created.  The data sheet
is very similar to the ATC sheet:

Entity:
Founding date:
Corporation Size:
Health:
Headquarters:
Contact:
Product:


(please keep the product info to one line if possible...)

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:15:40 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Jump details

> David J. Golden posted:
> 
>The problem depends on the inventiveness, deviousness, and just
>plain pervertedness of many players.

Odd, my ears seem to be burning...;-)

>Then HG said you needed power as well, and told you you could
> store power absorbed by black globes in part of the jump drive.
> Oh, and High Guard also says that all the jump fuel is used at
> the beginning, because if it's in a drop tank, you use it and then
> leave the drop tank before entering jump.  Finally, along comes
> DGP, and now you're fusing incredible amounts of hydrogen in
> extremely short time, storing the energy, and then dumping it all
> out again quickly.

> Leonard Erickson posted:
>
>If we go with the huge consumption rate for the J-drive, it's not
>especially practical to feed the J-drive from the drop tanks. But it
>*is* practical to pump fuel at a high (but not high enough to feed the
>J-drive) rate from the drop tanks to the ship's tanks. You'll be
>lagging behind the fuel consumption, but if (as I recall) you can delay
>jump for long enough to finish emptying the drop tanks, then you can
>jettison them and jump with full tanks. 
<snippage of addit'l points>

All good points, IMO, folks. My take on drop tank all these years is
there are two kinds:
1) those that you refueled your internal tanks from after charging up
    your zuchai crystals/jump grid for the initial jump. You then blew
    the tanks which were picked up for later use.
2) those that accompanied the ship into Jumpspace to a empty hex
    to be used to refill the internal tanks for another jump and were
    left behind. Basically, these were written off resulting in an
    incredibly costly loss over time. If you use the "jump grid" theory,
    they're even more costly, either by having to include their own
    jump grid or by forcing the carrying starship to overstress its
    own grid by extending its jump field.

In either case, only Leonard has said one of the magic words...
*delay*!
Delays cost merchants _money_ which must be made up for so
that the use of drop tanks is worth it. This is an example of what
US businesspeople call "soft dollars".

And this brings up the other magic word...*soft dollar* (or CrImps).

It's not just the delay of transferring fuel and blowing the tanks I'm
talking about. How about the delay and cost of recovering the tanks,
assuming it's being done? And *who* is performing the recovery?
How much are they charging to cover the costs of the equipment
and ships *they* have to use? How much does refurbishment of
the drop tanks cost (wouldn't most use explosive bolts to force
the tanks away from the ship's vector)?

There are alot of "soft" CrImps associated with using drop tanks
that are hitting someone's bottom line. That someone is going to
want those CrImps offset somehow.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #430
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 431



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Minor Corporation List
Re: Project Dulinor
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Invasion: Earth
Re: Tankers
I need a URL?????
Re: [T98#381] Traveller Links
Re: Classic 4 Sale...
Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)
Re: Invasion: Earth
Agricultural revolutions?
Re: Bootstrap (was: Uplift)
Re: "calibration points"
Re: "calibration points"
Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the archive
Re: "calibration points"
re: Invasion: Earth
Wanted...
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Jump details
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the archive
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: Drop tanks
This star really sucks...
Re: Nuclear Weapon data...
Re: Changing the background (Was: Drop tanks)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:34:05 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Minor Corporation List

Entity:  Diasporan Systems, Inc.
Founding date:  Founded -133 PC (Pre Confederation)
Corporation Size:  Multi Subsector
Health:  Excellent
Headquarters:  New Home, New Home Subsector, Capitol of the New Home
Confederation
Contact:  Jim A. Clem, CEO and Founder
Product:  Civilian and military ships, mining, vehicle and personal weapons


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:39:31 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Project Dulinor

>Does anyone know the current status of The Traveller Suite?
Due to lack of significant sales and lack of interest from IG, the further
releases of Traveller Suite were canceled. The product was withdrawn from
the market on December 31st of last year. After a six month breathing space
(so the last customer feels they got _something_ for their money) the same
release will be placed on the CORE website
(http://members.nova.org/~sol/core) for upload as freeware. At that point
those who paid for the sofware will be entitled to upload the source code.
Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:50:16 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Gary;

I have AHL. E mail me with what data you need, and I'll see what I can do to
help you.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:58:25 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Invasion: Earth

I can't help you there, as my IE is also an 81' copyright. PS I have never sat
down and played it, though I have studied the rules extensively. My friend has
though, and he insists the game is unplayable due to the percentage combat
losses system. The rules are reletively easy, but the large number of troop
counters that take forever to be eliminated due to the percentage step loss
system make the game bog down. Do you agree with this assessment, and if so do
you propose any modifications? BTW, if you have 5th.FW, the ground rules are
very similar, so I suppose the same comments go for it too.

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:10:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Tankers

I wouldn't even be suprised if the "itty-bitty" SDB's can kill the large
vessels when they attack in packs. In AHL, it says that the Haunting Thunder
was ambushed while skimming during the 4th. FW by a flight of SDB's. They shot
her up so bad that she crashed into the gas giant. It also said that the ship
had to "skim with all turrets and sensor arrays retracted". This could infer
that certain systems are not functional when skimming (especially for a
partially streamlined ship like an Ahzanti High Lightning class ship). I would
guess also that there would be certain modifiers for the target ship not
"jinking" (effective agility 0) while making the skim run. I think that it
mentioned that a fuel shuttle run took 3 hours, so if the mother ship took
that long (which I doubt, because a mother ship skim is an emergency procedure
and that the mother ship risked damage when doing so); it would be helpless.
The SDB's could dart out, and blast away at a convienent range, and not have
to be worried about return fire from the retracted turrets. Maybe this is why
there are so many partly, and fully streamlined fighters in the Imperium, to
escort skimming ships?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:24:24 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: I need a URL?????

Can some give me Andy Akin's URL for his robot and FFS2 spreadsheets?


<sounds of begging dog>


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:21:41 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: [T98#381] Traveller Links

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

I hope to hell this isn't some sort of troll...


what is a troll?
- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:23:54 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Classic 4 Sale...

Dear Sir;

What are "official" Traveller dice?

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:25:40 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

They found about 2000 of the things at Kinorb. Of course I don't know how many
are in use, how many are in reserve, and how many have been stolen, or lost in
action....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:08:11 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Invasion: Earth

>When were Deep Sights and Jump troops invented anyway?  I'm assuming they came
>after I:E ('81)... that or it's an oversight.

  Unless it's a commando raid, ordering a drop onto Terra would
be murder/suicide, depending on whether you're accompanying your
troops. The Solomani pig-dogs will be all over you in quantity in
a couple of hours, and there are a lot of them, and they have Grav
Armor (not that those little paper counters should be good for much
against sturdy cardboard-stock lift infantry).

  OTOH, there could very well be a drop assumed in all landings;
I don't have I:E even remotely close to hand.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:08:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Agricultural revolutions?

>>   These are all key elements but one big boost to overall productivity
will come
>> from increasing your population base.  Cheap and abundant food, medical care,
>> etc.  Not only do you extend the working life of laborers, you create more
>> laborers.
>
>Steam tractors and crop rotation, along with disease-resistant grains.  
>That'll give you your population boost and allow the landlocked people to 
>migrte to your cities to work in the new factories.

  Mechanized agriculture is hardly needed in most pre-industrial
economies, may not help productivity per hectare, and will cost a
whole lot of resources that might be better spent as capital to
re-invest.

  OTOH, if you've got more land than labour you might invest in
such a project as the aliens - by the time the indig rulers find
out how much money you've made you should have co-opted a large
fraction of the elite. 

  If you own the planet, you've met your victory condition :)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:23:31 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Bootstrap (was: Uplift)

Marc Miller writes:
>BTW, one theory is that alternating current fields increase intelligence.
>Track the places where AC wiring is installed and you can see its
>effects. So
>I would try to introduce electricity as early as possible, and then
>promote
>electrification.
>
>Marc

Haven't seen that research. Can you provide a reference?

I think the biggest boost you would get would be pre-natal and early
childhood care.  Free vitamin pills, diet supplements, immunizations,
clean water, and stimulating kindergartens would be easy, and cheap like
borscht. Check out the UNICEF data on the cost to provide clean water and
immunizations to one child. Compare it to the cost of a daily frappachino
at Starbucks.

Besides, think of the fun you could have with a player bootstrap team,
running a cross between the Peace Corps and Kindergarten Cop :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 10:31:17 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

>Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 08:55:27 -0700
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Re: "calibration points"
>
>>  One related thing that bothers me is how badly does the military
>>history of the background match up with the ability to effortlessly
>>establish deep space supply depots wherever you like?
>
>The fact that thrusters only work at a very very low level in free space
>complicates things somewhat; even maneuvering from a typical 30,000km
>jump error to the station may take a day or so. Such stations - and the ships
...
>it's given away its position to anyone within a parsec. HEPlaR-powered 
>warships could also carve such a station and the attendent fleet to pieces,
...

  Both SDB's and Fleet Intruders should have HePLAR under a revised CT
regime, even if only as afterburners (the alternative of _not_ outrunning
a squadron of bushwhackers doesn't bear contemplation). But the defence
of the supply points becomes their expendability - as there seems to be no
limit to their number or placement, they could be numerous enough to allow
effectively unlimited (J-1) "SDB" refuellings either singly or in squadron
groupings - the natural fuel can format becomes the appropriate drop tank
size to allow 2x J-1 to such a ship (IN, OUT).

>One (very minor) tweak we could add to make them less useful is to increas
>the size of jump errors when you come out of jump in empty space - make it
>a few hundred thousand or even million km, and it'll take weeks for a ship
>to refuel. (That makes the stations harder to attack, though.) Or make
>thrusters completely useless rather than partially useless under
>these conditions, and make HEPlaR engines bulkier so there's a significant
>penalty to carrying an aux engine.

  The drive tweakings I won't address, but you could make Jump accuracy
somewhat related to the mass of the body involved. This means that sites
based on comets, etc., would be of quite limited use, whereas a flat space
fuel can would be useless - you might never even find the damn thing within
your operational time constraints (forget combined missions). Presumably
this would make brown dwarfs more valuable, but luckily they could be real
rare in the Traveller universe.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:32:55 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

> Steven Hudson posted:
>
>  One related thing that bothers me is how badly does the military
>history of the background match up with the ability to effortlessly
>establish deep space supply depots wherever you like?
>
>  If every hex on the friendly side of the border can have cannisters
>of reloads and LHyd, then the issue may very well arise of building
>your SDB's as J-1 starships - they can exfiltrate/infiltrate at will
>during the strategic time frame. Also, your own Intruders can rip the
>hell out of enemy supply lines at will
<snip>

Yeah, you could *if* you could afford it. What you're talking about
could very well wind up cost tens of *trillions* (if not more) to be
effective.

Keep in mind that each hex is one parsec or 3.26 light *years*.
What's the cost of having enough sensors waiting around for (worst
case scenario) over 3 years to get information back regarding ship
movements within this empty space (assuming the ships/installations
aren't "stealthed")? Now multipy that cost by every empty hex just
along the Imperial border in the Spinward Marches.

Even assuming you had enough sensors to cover each light year,
that's still one *year* for the info to just get back to the sensor.
Given the manufacturing capabilities inherent at TL13+, alot can
happen one year from a sensor and you are one year behind
your enemy's activities. I won't even discuss the lag time caused
by the lack of FTL commo and the time needed to compile/analyse
the info.

>  Forget Nemesis (?) Intruders, how the heck did the Zho's get past
>CP-based FI's in the FFW?

I simply assumed that the CPs were a result of the FFW.

>  And while we're at it, this allows any patient party (including
>potentially hostile fleets, and Vampire ships) to stage cache
>construction across "borders", rifts, or whatever. Not a very
>stable situation, as it seems to be a classic model of a first
>strike scenario.

Well, that *is* the idea. You didn't think they were *really*
a defensive measure, did you? That's like saying the Clementine
moon probe was just to find ice on the moon. Yeah, right.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 11:50:44 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the archive

Does anyone know which compression program MPGN is using?  The ReadME only
refers to compress, but that will give a .Z extension, not a .bun

?help?

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:13 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

>   And while we're at it, this allows any patient party (including
> potentially hostile fleetss, and Vampire ships) to stage cache
> construction across "borders", rifts, or whatever. Not a very
> stable situation, as it seems to be a classic model of a first
> strike scenario.

Vampires have tried to build cp's to get to Regency space... been the sight of
many a battle out in the rifts... 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:12 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: re: Invasion: Earth

> To account for their lack in I:E, I've always assumed that they were
> taken out *previous* to the time of the actual game. For the game or
> *any* planetary invasion to even be considered, all PD meson batteries
> _must_ be neutralized first.

Well they're so hard to find, and pretty well impregnable anyways... put a
gigantic meson screen in there... If I was the Solomani, guarding the
homeworld, I'd have about a 9 or 10 deep sites, as well as at least one on
luna.  The only answer is to send a meteoric assault to try and get the
targetting array, assuming u find it.  You can't land the tubs that carry your
forces if the sites are up.  They'll get blown away on approach.  You can pull
in BBs and try to smash the targeting arrays, but getting nailed yourself by
multiple deep sites.  The meteoric assault would be crucial... otherwise no
landings can happen on any hi pop planet defended by multiple deep sites.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:15 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Wanted...

I've tried on rec.games.frp.marketplace (amongst others) for quite awhile
now...  Does anyone have an extra copy of DGPs Solomani & Aslan and/or Arrival
Vengeance?  Or be willing to part with theirs?  I'll probably pay a ghastly
amount of money or trade...  Thanx!

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:44:08 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> Here's the problem with not defining something so prevalent in a game system:
> You can't use it as a plot device.  You can't have a "New Experimental" jump
> technology without risking setting a bad precident. You can't do anything but
> the most general case with it. It squashes the richness of something that is
> inherent to the game.

Here's the problem with defining something so prevalent in a game system:
we have no idea how it would or even if it could actually work and no
single answer will ever satisfy everybody, or even a large majority of
people.

Chris
semo@pil.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:13:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> > There are two kinds of people:
> > 1 Those that think about an item in terms of what it does.
> > 2 Those that think about an item in terms of how it does it.
> > Me and my players suffer from being in group two and therefore have to
> > know/handwave lots of stuff in Traveller in order to suspend disbelief.
> 
> I'd like to add that people in group one should stay out of this argu... err...
> discussion, as they are already happy. I'd likewise suggest that an entire
> group of type ones should stay off ships.  i.e. if the adventure takes them off
> planet, they should book some rooms on a liner and then POOF, they appear on
> the next planet.
>

Confused about your second remark. I'm a Type 1 GM, only sometimes
meandering to type 2 (when it's needed). Not sure what you mean by type 1s
should stay off of ships.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:37:49 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 22:37:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)

> >>no-internal tankage cargo ships is going to revolutionise Traveller trade.
> >>
> >>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
> >>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
> >>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal 
> > tankage.

> > This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
> > forget they ever existed...
 
> The thing is, drop tanks exist *now* for aircraft, and for vehicles
> like the Space Shuttle. It's not *reasonable* to assume that the idea
> will just be forgotten. So people will be trying drop tanks for
> carrying *extra* fuel almost from the start.

I meant to drop them from use in jumping, where there utility can easily
be problematic.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:47:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

On Fri, 24 Apr 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:
> Here's the problem with defining something so prevalent in a game system:
> we have no idea how it would or even if it could actually work and no
> single answer will ever satisfy everybody, or even a large majority of
> people.

This is a spurious argument... of course we have no idea how technology
that we don't have yet would work.  As far as we know now, FTL travel is
impossible.  Traveller defines some aspects of jump travel, though, such
as the one week travel time and the hydrogen fuel use.  Defining more
detai about how it works is no sillier than making up what has already
been made up.  Most good science fiction has a plausible handwave for
new technology that doesn't violate existing knowledge and which minimizes
the made up parts.  Obviously Traveller jump drives require making up
some part of how they work but the rest should logically follow and
be in keeping with current knowledge.

I have always disliked the idea of having a big black box on ships
that somehow takes hydrogen and makes the ship go.  You can have a
character with high levels of jump engineering who can build a jump
drive from scratch but you can't tell him what it's made out of and
what he could take it apart and make out of it.  This isn't an issue
of lack of detail... there's no clue what's in jump drives and yet
they are obviously made up of several parts (energy conversion,
storage, and jump generator).

All the talk of drop tanks is missing the point.  Carrying extra
fuel around isn't controversial.  The fact that drop tanks can be
dropped before jumping means that the entire amount of fuel is used
at once *before* the jump.  This completely eliminates any possibility
that jump fuel is used during the jump.  Without drop tanks, then one
could postulate that the hydrogen was somehow used to maintain the
"jump bubble" during jump.  This isn't necessarily a problem, but is
another restriction on jump drive explanations.

My feeling is that, given the pivotal role of space ships and FTL
travel in Traveller, the various ship's systems should be explained.
Anyone who doesn't could ignore the explanations while those who wish
to play a more detailed or gritty game could use them.  Not having
explanations for how any of it works makes it hard for the GM or the
players to predict or play any situation which pushes the limits without
resorting to arbitrary explanations.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:47:24 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the archive

Douglas Glatz wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know which compression program MPGN is using?  The ReadME only
> refers to compress, but that will give a .Z extension, not a .bun
> 
> ?help?
> 
> --
> E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
> http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
> IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
> Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

(sigh) Never mind.  Instead, does anyone know why Netscape would strip the .Z's
off the files?

(Now at least I'll have _something_ to say during the Staff OS discussions [read
that flames]...Microsoft/IE picked it up right away, Unix/Netscape left me
scratching my head!  :)

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:55:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 23:23:06 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>   I don't see an incompatibility here. You've rightly pointed out the
> hassles with the ramifications of drop tanks that refs might not want
> to face. Ians option merely allows so-called "drop-tanks" to function
> like demountable tanks, except that being external they increase the
> L-Hyd needed for each Jump number.

"Demountable tanks" (ie tanks that you have to take with
you and which increase the displacement of the ship)
are indeed not what I'm saying is problem (though I
don't know what it would cost for the jump field
projectors to extend the field around them..
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 12:58:32 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Lloyd Robinson writes:
>I seem to remember that in CT, the drop tanks were specially made for each
>class of ship.

>A fueling port would need to have *lots* of different types of drop tanks on
>hand to be able to refuel *any* passing ship.

The problem is this just doesn't make sense.  Why should they be so
picky?  They just need a connection to the hull and the charges
to blow them away.  It isn't even clear why you should need a 
right next to the ship at all.  Just have a tube that you eject.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:24:19 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: This star really sucks...

Talk about a *bad* place to misjump to...

High-Gravity Star Measured 

United Press International
C O L U M B U S,   Ohio,   April 20 - Scientists say a
relatively small star is producing the strongest
gravitational field ever measured in the universe,
and is curving space around it in a way never seen
before. 
     They say the neutron star with as much mass as the Sun,
but that is only 10 miles across has a pull 100 billion times
stronger than the Earth. The gravity curves space itself,
making nearby matter behave in ways not seen elsewhere but
predicted by Einstein's theory of general relativity.

Spacesuit Wouldn't Help 
A human being on the surface of the neutron star "would be
crushed into a molecular layer," Astrophysicist Fred Lamb 
of the University of Illinois said. 
     The neutron star orbits a normal star as part of a so-called
"binary" star system. But the neutron star is a cannibal - its
intense gravity is stripping hot gas from the surface of its
companion...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:29:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Nuclear Weapon data...

Anders Backman <anders.backman@aniware.se> writes:

> Somebody posted some stuff about something here and included a link to a
> VERY informative and site dealing with the physics of nuclear weaponry. My
> machine crashed before I saved the link and the post got lost for the same
> reason.
> 
> Could somebody please repost it or mail the URL to me directly whatever is
> more convenient.

Here you go, Anders.

  Zone OverPressure Description of Damage
  ---- ------------ ---------------------
    1     1 psi     Window glass shatters
                    Light injuries from fragments occur.
    2     3 psi     Residential structures collapse.
                    Serious injuries are common, fatalities may occur.
    3     5 psi     Most buildings collapse.
                    Injuries are universal, fatalities are widespread.
    4     10 psi    Reinforced concrete buildings are severely damaged
                    or demolished.  Most people are killed.
    5     20 psi    Heavily built concrete buildings are severely damaged
                    or demolished.  Fatalities approach 100%.
                        -----------------------------
    Radius (km.) of Damage (Zones) vs. Detonation Yield (K/M tons)

 Zone  1 Kt    5 Kt   10 Kt   20 Kt   50 Kt  100 Kt    1 Mt    5 Mt   10 Mt
 ----  ----    ----    ----   -----   -----  ------   -----   -----   -----
  5    0.28    0.48    0.60    0.75    1.02    1.28    2.74    4.65    5.85
  4    0.45    0.77    0.96    1.21    1.64    2.06    4.40    7.48    9.40
  3    0.71    1.21    1.52    1.91    2.58    3.25    6.94   11.80   14.83
  2    1.00    1.70    2.14    2.69    3.64    4.57    9.77   16.62   20.89
  1    2.20    3.74    4.70    5.91    8.00   10.06   21.50   36.57   45.96

The bottom table is calculated from data available at the "High Energy
Weapons Archive" at URL: http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/

        - Mark C.
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 13:32:03 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background (Was: Drop tanks)

Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:28:35 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> >Thu, 23 Apr 1998 20:32:30,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
> >>I'd like to propose that we amend the rules so you can only use drop tanks
> >>to supplement internal tankage, not replace it. This will allow drop tanks
> >>and tankers to extend the range of ships, but not to replace internal
> >tankage.
> > 
> >This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
> >forget they ever existed...
> 
> This has an arbitrary feel. I think it would be best just to accept them
> as part of the Traveller background as they have always been.

Well, this is odd from someone who has show such a recence to just
accept canon as it is.  Additionally, you are missing the point.  I'm
talking about when a background feel hokey because explinations are
piled up to force something to fit and arbitrary preconception rather
than allowing them the follow from a few basic premises.  Changing the
background could be inconsistent, but not arbitrary in that sense.

For me, when it comes down to either simply ignoring a poorly
thought out addition that never go a lot of attention, or keeping
at and then piling up arbitrary rules for why it shouldn't change
the entire face of space travel, I go for the former.

> >It is difficult.  More difficult than it seems.  Players keep coming
> >up with contridictions you didn't see ("why did they use it for this
> >but not for that?"  "Why does this organization/custom/technology even
> >exists"  "Why can't I use this adventure shortcircuiting trick that you
> >didn't realize could be done?") and it keeps having ramifications that
> >take the background in a way you didn't expect.
> 
> All very true, but this is true anyway. The Traveller background is full
> of bits and pieces that don't seem to fit.

Yeah, nothings perfect. OTOH, the fewer the better.  And this is one
that dropping would have almost no effect on the history.

> You advocate erasing drop tanks from the game universe retroactively. This
> is potentially just as disrupting to other people's backgrounds as keeping
> them.

No, I advocate simply ignoring them.  People that have them already can
keep using them, but since they won't be mentioned again, new people
won't be encourged to introduce the problems the represent.

> >Unless you are willing to spend considerable time thinking about how as
> >many different parts the background would react (including second order
> >social ramifications) I wouldn't recommend it.

> Or you could set your campaign in an area where drop tanks either have not
> yet had time to become an intregral part of the commercial network or has
> been unable to function due to unsettled conditions.

Fine, until you want to introduce elements from more advanced areas,
or you want to advance the timeline, or players decide they are neat
enought to want to go ge them, or a number of ways this can break down.
And even if it doesn't, when you explain the background you then 
have either refuse to explore how space travel occurs in more advanced
areas of the Imperium, or you have go throught all the ramifications 
anyway.

> >More importantly for some, is it where you want to go with your campaign?
> >Do you want spend so much of your energies exploring the ramifications of
> >a fundamental techology changes?
>
> No, I'd prefer someone else doing it for me.

Well, if a game company wanted to do keep drop tanks and work out
all the ramification, but through not needing jump fuel on ships, 
it could work.  However, you would essentially have a new setting in
which the entire basis for the interactions of worlds is different.
It then comes down to which background people prefer.  

> >Additionally, you would change the feel of the background which
> >many people like...

> How would it change the feel?

The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a
big part of the background.  The idea there will not be things
like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where ships arrive and depart
from is another big change.  That is just off the top of my head.

> >>Why is this different from having to decide if you like the Rebellion or
> >>the Hard Times or the Virus or the Reformation Coalition or any other
> >>historical chance in the Traveller background?
> > 
> >The Rebellion was not as fundamental change.
> 
> ROTFL!

Laugh all you want.  This is part of self deceiving conceit of politics,
that their actions are the most important part of how society develops.
It can be argued that in the long run, it mostly just changes
who gets written down in the history books.

All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
was in charge.  It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings
of society.

> I think you've let your argumentative enthusiasm run away with you here.
> You can't possibly mean that seriously.

And I think you are binded by the obsession we have for what passes
for "history".  It the self decepton that leads to history books
making children memorize dates of wars that did little more than 
change who was top dog while giving only passing attention the
technologies, social attitudes, etc. that fundamentally change 
society.

> >And the you also have issue about just using the jump stations to jump in
> >the fuel you need to get back.

> That one I didn't get. What do you mean?

You need fuel to get back?  You room for one person and a jump field
generator on a tanks and use the jump station to provide the fuel
to send it to them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #431
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Friday, April 24 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 432



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wanted...
Re: Drop Tanks
Re: "calibration points"
PbEM ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Jump details
Re: Population attitudes
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: Uplift
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
re: Jump details
Re: Nuclear weapon data
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Tankers
Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)
< insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: older Traveller products
Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)
Re: "calibration points"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:13:16 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Wanted...

>I've tried on rec.games.frp.marketplace (amongst others) for quite awhile
>now...  Does anyone have an extra copy of DGPs Solomani & Aslan and/or Arrival
>Vengeance?  Or be willing to part with theirs?  I'll probably pay a ghastly
>amount of money or trade...  Thanx!

I have both, but I'm really only interested in unloading Arrival Vengence.
At least until the CD project is done, that is. ;-) (I'm not a collector --
I'm just in it for the information).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 16:15:50 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks

I thought I'd offer up the drop tank/jump drive situation IMTU...

a) My players have a low gearheadedness, so the following has satisfied
them. Your milage may vary...
b) Jump drives need H2 for opening the jump rift - it is not fused or
burned, but it is required becase <handwave> - thus hydrogen is the only
element that does the job (due to some property of h2 that we don't
understand yet...)
c) Drop tanks exist. They must be fitted to a ship exactly, so as to not
interfere with the forming jump bubble, and so that they can dump their fuel
ASAP. No hoses will do - these are high velocity pumps and pipes.
d) You cannot use an external fuel station to power a jump because the act
of jumping is hazardous to ships/stations in the immediate area of the
jumping craft. Note that this is a departure from canon, I don't belive that
it has ever been said that being near a jumping ship is bad. IMTU, near is
defined as several hundred miles.
e) If a craft is designed from the start to use drop tanks, there are no
penalties. If drop tanks are retrofitted, the chance of misjump is increased
by 1 when the tanks are used.

For those who are curious, the effects of being too near a jumping ship IMTU
is nausea for sophonts, electrical resetting minor structural damage for
ships and objects. Thus you can't use the jump drive as a weapon (or at
least, not a good one).

Just my views...


+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 14:25:54 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

>But the defence
>of the supply points becomes their expendability - as there seems to be no
>limit to their number or placement, they could be numerous enough to allow
>effectively unlimited (J-1) "SDB" refuellings either singly or in squadron
>groupings - the natural fuel can format becomes the appropriate drop tank
>size to allow 2x J-1 to such a ship (IN, OUT).
Ah, but you have to know the supply point is going to be there on your 
way in...

Imagine how unhappy you'll be if you jump to the location of a substation
that's been destroyed; you'll never be able to get to the next one. 

FFW (and canonical war) did have tanker squadrons; I'm not actually sure
free-space refuelling ports are a better bargain than spending the same
amount of money on tankers, since you can put the tanker anywhere you want -
you need a lot more refuelling stations than you do tankers (and you still
need a big jump-capable carrier to place the stations, too.) 

It'd be interesting to try this in FFW or IS. If you could trade a tanker
squadron for four fixed refuelling platforms of the same capability, would
you do it? I'd probably trade one tanker and put the counters at the really
crucial locations, but not more. (Of course both lack rules for commerce
raiding and anti-infrastructure strikes, which would be the main benificiery
of such units...)


To take a real-world example: modern naval vessels - especially at full speed -
and the airgroup of a carrier burn fuel at rates that are actually pretty
close to Traveller - most ships only have enough fuel for a few days or a
week at maximum speed (much longer at reduced speeds, of course), and the 
carrier only has enough jet fuel and ammo for a similar short period of 
actual fighting. It would be easy for the USN to establish fixed floating 
refuelling platforms - but they don't; instead, they invest in tankers and
replenishment vessels.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:34:02 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: PbEM ANNOUNCEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hiya everyone.  The PbEM is getting off to a nice start.  The characters
I currently have have met, and found themselves a contact.  My web site
has a running synopsis of events that have transpired, as well as bios up
and coming about the characters.  Take a look if you care, and please
leave or mail me any comments you have about the pages or the campaign. 
I always look forward to ideas and comments.  

I'm planning to drop the list a line bout every week or so to update
things, if no one out there minds.  If that is a problem, please let me
know.

Thanks

Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 17:58:49 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > > There are two kinds of people:
> > > 1 Those that think about an item in terms of what it does.
> > > 2 Those that think about an item in terms of how it does it.
> > > Me and my players suffer from being in group two and therefore have to
> > > know/handwave lots of stuff in Traveller in order to suspend disbelief.
> >
> > I'd like to add that people in group one should stay out of this argu...
> err...
> > discussion, as they are already happy. I'd likewise suggest that an
> entire
> > group of type ones should stay off ships.  i.e. if the adventure takes
> them off
> > planet, they should book some rooms on a liner and then POOF, they appear
> on
> > the next planet.
> >
>
> Confused about your second remark. I'm a Type 1 GM, only sometimes
> meandering to type 2 (when it's needed). Not sure what you mean by type 1s
> should stay off of ships.

If you don't care how a ship works, don't give the characters a ship.  Just put
them on liners and ignore the whole time on board.

Players: "We need to get to MacGuffin system to continue the adventure."
GM: "OK, 10 days later you arive in MacGuffin system sans 10Kcreds each."

Then you get to get on with your oh so important mission without worrying the
least bit about how jump drives work, or anything else having to do with
advanced technology.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:03:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Population attitudes

Howdy!

Doug Berry wrote:
> At 04:03 PM 4/24/98 +0200, you wrote:
> >
> >In World Builders Handbook there are several areas where the 
> >populations attitudes are mapped. Can anyone give me the 
> >different areas, the different attitudes and maybe a passage
> >or two on the rules concernig them?
> 
> Progressiveness:
> Attitude:
> Radical
> Progressive
> Conservative
> Reactionary
> 
> Action:
> Enterprising
> Advancing
> Indifferent
> Stagnant
> 
> High population worlds are more likely to be low on the scale.
> 
[snip]

I've been trying to get a handle on the WBH. This looks a lot like
the stuff in Grand Census. Am I correct in inferring that WBH is
effectively a combination of Grand Survey and Grand Census?

thanks!

Michael


- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:31:53 -0400
From: "Commander X (aka Arcanus)" <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

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Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

Location: IRC.  Undernet or (more likely) ntr severs.
Founding date: August 1997
Group size:  Currently 5
Number of referees:  1
Health:  Weak at first, but now in full swing!
Predominant rules system:  T4, drawing heavily from the ISBA setting.
Campaign location:  Planet X, a Starport in an 'empty' hex.
Campaign time:  M:0 (Year 21)
E-mail contact: cmdrx@magicnet.net.
Synopsis:  Planet X was an idea I had from the start of T4.  I wanted a   
location that would not change with the UPP's and maps.  (i.e. the Core   
subsector fiasco).  An Empty hex seemed approprate at the time.  The port   
links the Zimiin and Sylean Mains and is a center of heavy trade and   
commerce.  Planet X is the home of X-TEK Industries, LIC.  Themes vary   
between covert ops, espionage, and intreague, to high adventure and   
general butt kicking.  And because it's X-TEK, GADGETS GADGETS and more   
GADGETS!
Visit the web site www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/products.htm for the   
GADGETS!

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AAAAAABGAAAAADeFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAAaACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAA
AAA4hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAACwAHgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAA4UAAAAA
AAADAAmACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAAQhQAAAAAAAAMADoAIIAYAAAAAAMAA
AAAAAABGAAAAAAGFAAAAAAAACwAagAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAADoUAAAAA
AAADABuACCAGAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARgAAAAARhQAAAAAAAAMAHYAIIAYAAAAAAMAA
AAAAAABGAAAAABiFAAAAAAAAHgA9AAEAAAABAAAAAAAAAAMADTT9NwAAIoU=
- --Boundary_(ID_dQSfjW6zSxB3WexkzxwiZg)--


- --------------4F2E40F863504908959647C8--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:45:44 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

David P. Summers wrote:

> Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> >The big problem with
> >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
> >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
>
> Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
> the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
> is burned at....
>

If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?  If the
energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump space for the week? If you
don't burn the fuel the most efficiently possible for the tech level, then you
could use less fuel and just burn it efficiently.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:31:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Uplift

CardSharks wrote:

> In a message dated 98-04-24 02:41:57 EDT, you write:
>
> <<   These are all key elements but one big boost to overall productivity will
> come
>  from increasing your population base.  Cheap and abundant food, medical care,
>  etc.  Not only do you extend the working life of laborers, you create more
>  laborers.
>   >>
>
> Increasing poopulation base by itself does practically nothing (ie, China).
> Measured increases coupled with improved standards of living, enough food,
> medical care, and a puritan work ethic is a great support oof increasing
> technology.

You're right in essence.  I guess what I was trying to say that population
increase will enable the high production of the technology developed.  Its the
application of the technology that requires populations.  Especially when you're
building railroads, liberty ships, etc.

I would ordinarily quibble with the China example, since so much of their
population is involved in farming, but I think you get my point.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:37:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

Howdy!

Joe Petit wrote:
> 
> 
> David P. Summers wrote:
> 
> > Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> > >The big problem with
> > >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
> > >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
> >
> > Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
> > the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
> > is burned at....
> >
> 
> If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?  If the
> energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump space for the week? If you
> don't burn the fuel the most efficiently possible for the tech level, then you
> could use less fuel and just burn it efficiently.
> 
<HANDWAVE>
The fuel gets consumed, but what says that it has to be "burned". 
Perhaps the process is less efficient than possible in order to
get the desired output flux. That is, run the mixture way rich in 
order to keep the reactor from slagging down at the extreme power
levels it is producing? Perhaps the capacitors or zuchai crystals
don't completely discharge with the initial spin, but provide a
residual level of power to maintain the bubble. 

One can posit a minimal level of internal fuel required for 
maintenance of the bubble, for some value of "minimal". If I
recall correctly, the designs that feature drop tanks also have
internal tankage that provides a reduced level of jump after the
drop tanks have been expended. I'd think that a design that 
relied on drop tanks for all jump fuel would be a Bad Idea except
under very controlled conditions (such as one might find in stable
regions where an infrastructure can be established for routine useage).

I guess I am not terribly worked up over the really minor details.
IMTU, drop tanks are not practical for the typical player operated
ship anyway.
</HANDWAVE>

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:36:37 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: re: Jump details

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote

>         No, not every gaming group needs or cares about it. But then,
> neither does every gaming group really care about having a consistent
> design. Some only care about cool deckplans. For others, you have to
> have consistent design rules to guide and harness their ... urges.
> ("No, you cannot mount a 6G maneuver drive, J6, and 50% cargo volume
> all in the same ship--it doesn't fit!")

Actually a 6g manuver takes 17% of the ships volume, a Jump6 drive takes
7% so you have more than enough room left over for 50% cargo as long as
you leave out nonessentials like fuel & crew.  You will have a full 26%
of the ship left for everything else. :)


- -- 
Peter Newman		pnewman@alaska.net

"Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer.  Le monde va de lui-mme."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:24:32 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Nuclear weapon data

> For further information, I *strongly* recommend that you visit the
> "High Energy Weapons Archive" at "http://www.fas.org/nuke/hew/".
> You should find most of the data you need at that location.
 

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:30:52 -0400
From: T Green <tgreen@gte.net>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

OOPS!

That .GIF was only supposed to go out to the person who requested it.

Sorry 'bout wasting bandwidth for the rest of you folks.

<<tg>>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:14:04 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Tankers

At 11:23 PM 23/04/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  So it probably turns out that the canonical sub-1000 Dt SDB's can
>_only_ hurt a tanker when it's skimming (which we don't yet have the
>special rules on, IIRC).
>
>  OTOH, the logical (and not uncanonical) battle-rider sized SDB's
>can gut such a tanker effortlessly unless faced with a n escorting
>battlesquadron.

I've never seen any problem with buying more riders than carriers, and
using the surplus as SDBs. This also means that you have a pool of riders
availible to replace combat losses.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:33:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

At 10:50 AM 24/04/98 -0500, David Smart wrote:
>> Rupert Boleyn posted:
>>
>>I did a quick calculation a while back, and unless I was out in my
>maths
>>there's no practical beam weapon that would overload even a relatively
>>small jump drive's HPG's, and just about any ship can easily consume
>the
>>power that's stored.
>
>'Scuse me? Last time I checked, almost any spinal mount would blow
>away any scout/merchantship with a black globe. I don't have my
>books with me, though, to confirm. I do remember having to add
>capacitors in MT and TNE to ship designs which could be taking
>meson fire in order to boost (not guarantee) their survival.

OK a Scout has a TL-15 J-2 drive, vol = 100 x 0.03 x 14 = 42 m^3. According
to FF&S 35% is HPGs: 14.7 m^3. This gives a storage capacity of 420MJ, so
you are correct for a scout. However if we look at a Midu (3,000 DT, TL-15,
J-4) we find that it's Jump Drive can store 60,000 MJ - a reasonably
descent spinal PAW's output (even a very skinny ship would need to be
15,000 DT+ to mount it). 60,000 MJ over 30 minutes is 33.333 MW, so there's
going to be very little problem with getting rid of the energy in the HPG's.

>> After working this out I came to the conclusion that
>>TL15 warships would all have Black Globes, and who cares if nobody at
>Tl-15
>>really knows how they work. Even a 40% flicker rate is pretty good,
>>especially given their stealth applications.
>
>The problem, though, is that TL15 black globes built by the Imperium
>have a *10%* flicker rate (see High Guard, the Kinunir adventure, and
>MT's Referee's Manual).
>
>The 40% devices you mention are Ancient artifacts which are limited in
>number to 100 or so and are tightly controlled/guarded by the IN.
>Only some of them are actually installed in ships at the time of
>Twilight's Peak (early 1100's) and these, IMO, are on selected
>battlewagons and command ships...and the vessels guarding the
>Ancient site in which they were discovered (also probably BBs).

Both MT and FF&S say that flicker rates of up to 40% are TL-15, and 1 GCr
and 150 MW for a BB's protection seems like a bargain to me.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 20:53:08 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details

>I rather enjoy the discussions...

You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
in the game we're running now says..."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 18:26:26 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

GDW GAMES wrote:
> 
> Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
> 
> >I rather enjoy the discussions...
> 
> You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
> in the game we're running now says..."

(sigh) Back when I had the time to do a GenCon, I never had the money.  And now,
of course....

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:38:05 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

GDW GAMES wrote:

> Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
>
> >I rather enjoy the discussions...
>
> You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
> in the game we're running now says..."

I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the anihilation of
positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make the appearance of a swirling
crackling mass akin to being inside a nuclear reactor core.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 19:38:27 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: older Traveller products

> Local Customs: Thrown in to make things interesting (At some intersections,
> left turning traffic is customarily allowed to turn before the oncoming
> cars cross the intersection.  This can be interesting if unfamiliar withthe
> custom especially when (1) you are the oncoming car or (2) the left turner
> is placed somewhere else.)


Yeah I ran into one of those..the one-coming traffic thought I was some
sort of idiot for waiting..:)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:55:18 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

Today, Rupert Boleyn posted:
> > After working this out I came to the conclusion that
> >TL15 warships would all have Black Globes, and who cares if nobody at
> Tl-15
> >really knows how they work. Even a 40% flicker rate is pretty good,
> >especially given their stealth applications.

And I replied:
> The problem, though, is that TL15 black globes built by the Imperium
> have a *10%* flicker rate (see High Guard, the Kinunir adventure, and
> MT's Referee's Manual).
> 
> The 40% devices you mention are Ancient artifacts which are limited in
> number to 100 or so and are tightly controlled/guarded by the IN.
> Only some of them are actually installed in ships at the time of
> Twilight's Peak (early 1100's) and these, IMO, are on selected
> battlewagons and command ships...and the vessels guarding the
> Ancient site in which they were discovered (also probably BBs).

Well, I picked up FFS2 and realized I didn't know what I was
talking about. This'll teach me to spout off from work when my
books are at home.

Rupert, you are correct about the flicker rate. I hope you'll
accept my most sincere apology.

- -- 
Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
(aka David.Smart@ons.octel.com)
Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 05:03 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> Imagine how unhappy you'll be if you jump to the location of a substation
> that's been destroyed; you'll never be able to get to the next one. 

	exactly. DSCP are either a vulnerable assert, or a short time
	installation. Gary mentioned my "Islands war" scenario: The
	first thing virus did, was to grep in old long bow and short
	bow archives about possible DSCP, to jump there and to install
	jump ports. Next they attacked the well known trade DSCP's
	between the Regency and the Islands. The problem with DSCP's
	is that they are not secrete, if the opponent has a shortbow.
	A DSCP one light year away from enemies border is only save
	for one year. For that reason my JumpPort idea.

> It'd be interesting to try this in FFW or IS. If you could trade a tanker
> squadron for four fixed refuelling platforms of the same capability, would
> you do it?

	e.g. Rurevayn has a TF:11 upgraded to 750.000 dt. 250.000dt is
	a good hangar space for a port. The best thing: If you fill the
	colapsible tanks with water and not with LHy, you are to heavy
	to move by thusters but you can make quite a lot of consequtive
	jumps. To move the port deep into the Rift, where its skimming
	fuel on a free floater and serving as a port for not longer than
	3 month to reduce the risk of detection by a large PEMS or shortbow.

> To take a real-world example: modern naval vessels - especially at full speed -
> and the airgroup of a carrier burn fuel at rates that are actually pretty
> close to Traveller - most ships only have enough fuel for a few days or a
> week at maximum speed (much longer at reduced speeds, of course), and the 
> carrier only has enough jet fuel and ammo for a similar short period of 
> actual fighting. It would be easy for the USN to establish fixed floating 
> refuelling platforms - but they don't; instead, they invest in tankers and
> replenishment vessels.

	But cilivilan vessels dont have tankers on high see, they tank
	in a port. So the known DSCPs are civilian like those between
	the Regency and the Islands or special like the Longbow or the
	one used for the "assasination mail to Norris". The military
	prefers tanker support, its more reliable, cheaper, and less
	vulnerable.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #432
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 433



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Classic 4 Sale...
Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch
Re: Jump details
Re: Drop tanks
Deep meson sites
Re: "calibration points"
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: "calibration points"
Re: Changing the background
Re: Wanted...
Geonee Sourcebook - Updated
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: What if a comet hit...
Re: Drop tanks
Re: This star really sucks...
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:52:54 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

GDW GAMES wrote:

> Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
>
> >I rather enjoy the discussions...
>
> You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
> in the game we're running now says..."

  You actually let your room number be known?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:51:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

Joe Pettit wrote:

> GDW GAMES wrote:
>
> > Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
> >
> > >I rather enjoy the discussions...
> >
> > You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
> > Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
> > in the game we're running now says..."
>
> I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the anihilation of
> positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make the appearance of a swirling
> crackling mass akin to being inside a nuclear reactor core.

For those interested, here's an artist's
rendering:http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/blobtest.jpg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:16:40 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

TravelrTNE wrote:
> 
> I just got the maps to the Azhanti High Lightning (unfortunately, no supp 5 or
> rule book).  Does anyone have a key to the maps?  I can figure out some of em,
> but not all...  Thanx.
> 
> Gary


I tried scanning from my copy of Supplement #5, but the scans are pretty
bad.  Sorry.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 21:33:38 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Classic 4 Sale...

Sethkimmel wrote:
> 
> Dear Sir;
> 
> What are "official" Traveller dice?
> 
> Seth

They are black with Imperial Sunbursts on them.  I have a set.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:09:52 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch

Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM> wrote:
 
> Does anyone know which compression program MPGN is using?  The ReadME only
> refers to compress, but that will give a .Z extension, not a .bun

I've downloaded and decompressed some of the old TMLs that were .bun 
files compressed in the UNIX ".Z" compression format. The .bun files 
themselves were readable by Wordpad without additional processing. 
IIRC though, none of the digest archive files, .bun or otherwise, 
seem to be in "vanilla text" format - you need MS Word or MS Wordpad 
(which comes with Win 95) to read them. My guess is that .bun refers 
to whatever batch process they use to combine files, since all of the 
.bun files that I've seen there are compilations of nine or ten 
digests. 

Hope this helps,

Bob Kondrk
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:51:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> If you don't care how a ship works, don't give the characters a ship. 
Just put
> them on liners and ignore the whole time on board.

So what do you propose then exactly? Instead give them a ship and then have
them micromanage the entire ship's voyage? I've run a Traveller game now
since September, the party has not once needed (or requested) to know the
specifics behind Jump. All they know about Jump is: 

1.) The ship needs a Jump Drive in order to engage in Jump.
2.) Jumps of any length take about a week.
3.) Jump is travel through an alternate dimension.

That's all they've ever needed to know.

> Players: "We need to get to MacGuffin system to continue the adventure."
> GM: "OK, 10 days later you arive in MacGuffin system sans 10Kcreds each."

<SARCASM ON>
Okay. I get it now! Gearheadedness is now a measuring of GMing and playing
ability! I'm sorry I didn't get it sooner. I'll pack up my books and sell
them. Anyone want a bunch of Traveller stuff? CT, MT, TNE, T4, all versions
represented!
<SARCASM OFF>

My players have a ship, and I prefer not to spend late nights figuring out
how J-Drive works! 

HA! So there.

Big deal. There's no reason to say that people who prefer not to think long
and hard about this stuff have no right to play a certain way. That's just
stupid, and it seems to border  on trolling.

> Then you get to get on with your oh so important mission without worrying
the
> least bit about how jump drives work, or anything else having to do with
> advanced technology.

I don't care to think overly long and hard about J-Drive, so sue me. It's
no big deal. In the future, kindly refrain from telling me how to play my
game, and I'll refrain from telling you how to play yours. Pretty simple.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 02:23:34 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>
> Obviously Traveller jump drives require making up
> some part of how they work but the rest should logically follow and
> be in keeping with current knowledge.

Why? Why not make up the whole thing to fit the flavor of your campaign.
It's not that hard.

> I have always disliked the idea of having a big black box on ships
> that somehow takes hydrogen and makes the ship go.  You can have a
> character with high levels of jump engineering who can build a jump
> drive from scratch but you can't tell him what it's made out of and
> what he could take it apart and make out of it.  This isn't an issue
> of lack of detail... there's no clue what's in jump drives and yet
> they are obviously made up of several parts (energy conversion,
> storage, and jump generator).

So? I also don't know what somebody who sports a high level knowledge of
gravitics could make with a ship's Thruster Plates or the Grav Plates on an
air/raft. I don't know what these plates are even made of. That's where
make-believe and creativity come in.

> My feeling is that, given the pivotal role of space ships and FTL
> travel in Traveller, the various ship's systems should be explained.
> Anyone who doesn't could ignore the explanations while those who wish
> to play a more detailed or gritty game could use them.  Not having
> explanations for how any of it works makes it hard for the GM or the
> players to predict or play any situation which pushes the limits without
> resorting to arbitrary explanations.

But, any explanation of the way a Jump Drive works will be an arbitrary
explanation. A canonized version won't help. My vision of Jump Space is
completely different than Joe Petit's, for example. If Joe Petit's version
were canon, it would not satisfy me at all. I'd still be in the same boat
as now, making up my own version. I don't use the DGP and FF&S2 version of
Jump Drives either (with the Hydrogen bubble and all that). I also don't
use Zochai crystals.

But it's not a matter of my version, or Mr. Petit's version. Everyone has
their own ideas about how Jump Space works specifically, and that's
something I would like to continue to see in Traveller. The more stuff that
is explained in the Traveller universe, the fewer the chances of someone
coming up with their own ideas when they're playing.  Traveller becomes
less and less flexible with the evergrowing morass of "canonized"
technology.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:52:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Deep meson sites

>Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:19:12 EDT
>From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
>Subject: re: Invasion: Earth
>
>> To account for their lack in I:E, I've always assumed that they were
>> taken out *previous* to the time of the actual game. For the game or
>> *any* planetary invasion to even be considered, all PD meson batteries
>> _must_ be neutralized first.
>
>Well they're so hard to find, and pretty well impregnable anyways... put a
>gigantic meson screen in there... If I was the Solomani, guarding the
>homeworld, I'd have about a 9 or 10 deep sites, as well as at least one on
>luna.  The only answer is to send a meteoric assault to try and get the
>targetting array, assuming u find it.  You can't land the tubs that carry your
>forces if the sites are up.  They'll get blown away on approach.  You can pull
>in BBs and try to smash the targeting arrays, but getting nailed yourself by
>multiple deep sites.  The meteoric assault would be crucial... otherwise no
>landings can happen on any hi pop planet defended by multiple deep sites.

  If AFV's with meson communicators exist, then this doesn't work either.
And if AFV's can't spot for meson weapons, then those "artillery" support
meson designs are non-functional.

  While a drop raid might nail a soft facility, it is hard to see how
even a few dozen PD fire con AFV's could be exterminated, particularly
as the number of valid targets might be vastly larger than that.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 22:53:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

>From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
>Subject: Re: "calibration points"
...
>>  If every hex on the friendly side of the border can have cannisters
>>of reloads and LHyd, then the issue may very well arise of building
>>your SDB's as J-1 starships - they can exfiltrate/infiltrate at will
>>during the strategic time frame. Also, your own Intruders can rip the
>>hell out of enemy supply lines at will
><snip>
>
>Yeah, you could *if* you could afford it. What you're talking about
>could very well wind up cost tens of *trillions* (if not more) to be
>effective.
...
>your enemy's activities. I won't even discuss the lag time caused
>by the lack of FTL commo and the time needed to compile/analyse
>the info.

  Clearly I've missed something here. What do sensors have to do with
it? All I want is to quietly place my fuel cans in peacetime, and raise
hell behind the lines in wartime. No sensor net seems needed, and as
pointed out it would be impractical anyway.

>>  Forget Nemesis (?) Intruders, how the heck did the Zho's get past
>>CP-based FI's in the FFW?
>
>I simply assumed that the CPs were a result of the FFW.

  If accurate jumps to deep space are of trivial difficulty, then
why has such a policy not been in place since the post-Nth IW
period (for reasons discussed elsewhere I assume that this capability
is an "invention" like the HG rules drop-tank that did not exist in
2100 AD.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:58:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:45:44 -0400, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>> >The big problem with
>> >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
>> >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.

>> Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
>> the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
>> is burned at....

>If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?

Nothing say it doesn't just go right into jumping....

>  If the
>energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump space for the week?

Physics.  It takes energy to get you into orbit, but you can stay
there indefinately....

> If you
>don't burn the fuel the most efficiently possible for the tech level, then you
>could use less fuel and just burn it efficiently.

Who says you aren't buring it the most efficient way possible?
Who says a high throughput reactor will be as efficient as a
low throughput.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:23:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

Hello,
>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>Subject: Re: "calibration points"
>
>>But the defence
>>of the supply points becomes their expendability - as there seems to be no
>>limit to their number or placement, they could be numerous enough to allow
>>effectively unlimited (J-1) "SDB" refuellings either singly or in squadron
>>groupings - the natural fuel can format becomes the appropriate drop tank
>>size to allow 2x J-1 to such a ship (IN, OUT).
>Ah, but you have to know the supply point is going to be there on your 
>way in...
>
>Imagine how unhappy you'll be if you jump to the location of a substation
>that's been destroyed; you'll never be able to get to the next one. 

  If that occurred, then you'd be using your low berths and lying a
bit lower than you'd intended :)

  But seriously, if accurate jumps to a _very large_ number of single
(or low #) use sites (for the given ship type) are easy, then not
only does the J-1 SDB (with external demountable tanks) become very
attractive, but Fleet Intruders using their own system of single use
tank depots (collapsible tanks would be portable, yes?) become hell
on wheels.

>FFW (and canonical war) did have tanker squadrons; I'm not actually sure
>free-space refuelling ports are a better bargain than spending the same
>amount of money on tankers, since you can put the tanker anywhere you want -
>you need a lot more refuelling stations than you do tankers (and you still
>need a big jump-capable carrier to place the stations, too.) 

  I don't want to get into that real-world analogy or replacing
tankers. A big station is a bad investment, IMO, compared to a
tanker or a planetary starport. But a 90 Dt external tank for an
800 Dt warship will only cost 100 KCr (0.1 MCr), for a ship that
could easily run 800+ MCr.

  This also leads to each grouping of J-1 SDB's having their own
milch-kow tanker, which could spend its peacetime deployment in
the placement, maintenance, and "race-track" shuttling of fuel
sites. For a squadron of 800 Dt J-1 "SDB's", each boat would have
a series of pre-placed sites (consisting of an 80 Dt collapsible
tank and a 90 Dt drop tank), and the whole supported by one or two
small tankers to establish new sites using the same materials or
others as available. A couple of military scouts or couriers
might be organic rather than auxiliary for security purposes.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:24:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Hello,
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Changing the background (Was: Drop tanks)
...
>> How would it change the feel?
>
>The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a
>big part of the background.  The idea there will not be things
>like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where ships arrive and depart
>from is another big change.  That is just off the top of my head.

  The latter is one hell of a good point. Although there may not be
an explicit "there will not be things like...", the portrayal of
such would be completely new and eventually reshape much of the
background.

...
>> >The Rebellion was not as fundamental change.
>> 
>> ROTFL!
>
>Laugh all you want.  This is part of self deceiving conceit of politics,
>that their actions are the most important part of how society develops.
>It can be argued that in the long run, it mostly just changes
>who gets written down in the history books.
>
>All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
>was in charge.  It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings
>of society.

  How about blew them up real good?

>> I think you've let your argumentative enthusiasm run away with you here.
>> You can't possibly mean that seriously.
>
>And I think you are binded by the obsession we have for what passes
>for "history".  It the self decepton that leads to history books
>making children memorize dates of wars that did little more than 
>change who was top dog while giving only passing attention the
>technologies, social attitudes, etc. that fundamentally change 
>society.

  The brief diatribe above seems to apply more to normal politics
than to an armed civil war, in which social attitudes seem to get
substantially modified along with the liquidation of various
portions of that society. The 3I was a coherent if fragile society.
After the Rebellion gets rolling there is no real chance of a unified
Imperium emerging, even if a single nominal master could be established
with massive military force.

  There might be a point to what's being discussed, but describing
the Rebellion as unimportant seems both untenable and slightly
ridiculous.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:30:42 EDT
From: XatoKuom <XatoKuom@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted...

In a message dated 98-04-24 15:41:44 EDT, you write:

<< I've tried on rec.games.frp.marketplace (amongst others) for quite awhile
 now...  Does anyone have an extra copy of DGPs Solomani & Aslan and/or
Arrival
 Vengeance?  Or be willing to part with theirs?  I'll probably pay a ghastly
 amount of money or trade...  Thanx!
  >>

Gary

My local game shop has several copies of Arrival Vengeance.  You want me to
grab you one?  I would love Solomani and Aslan, but, as you know, that's about
the hardest supplement to find ANYWHERE!!!   Quite frustrating!!!

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:22:57 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Geonee Sourcebook - Updated

	I updated the Geonee Online Sourcebook, adding at last data on the 
Llyrnian minor race and a .GIF map of the two relevant subsectors for 
Milieu Zero. In addition, I finally started the Geonee-1120 page.
	Carlos Alos-Ferrer a.k.a. The Geonee-maker.
	URL: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 01:09:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

In mail you write:

> David P. Summers wrote:
>
>> Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen 
> <rancke@diku.dk>
>> >The big problem with
>> >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
>> >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
>>
>> Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
>> the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
>> is burned at....
>
> If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store
> it?

It's stored in the jump field. Just like pumping energy into an
induction coil, except for the magnetic field, the power seems to be
going "nowhere". And if you suddenly *stop* dumping energy into the
field, you'll get one hell of a power spike back *out*.

> If the energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump
> space for the week?

Well, carrying on with the above analogy, When the field reaches a
certain "strength" you pop into jumpspace. 

We can go several directions after that. The field keeps you there, and
it decays until it reaches a level where it's not strong enough to
*keep* you in jump space. There are lots of real world situations
where the energy required to *start* something is a lot higher than the
energy required to keep it going once it starts. 

Or, the field could be "consumed" by your entry into jumpspace an some
other feature of the drive "keeps" you in jumpspace. 

Either way, this works *very* well with the bit about having to build
power in a short period and not being able to stop in the middle. The
stresses in the coils/grid/whatever from building up to the required
entry field strength can only be maintained for so long (like the
tendency of a strong magnetic field to make the coil explode). Once you
get into jump, the srtresses are gone (either because the field is
gone, or because j-space itself compensates).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:17:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What if a comet hit...

In mail you write:

> In the previous comet discussion a question occured to me. But there was
> enough verbiage going around I thought I would save it till later. Well,
> it's later.
> There were different scenarios depicted for a comet striking land, striking
> sea, or breaking up into smaller sections and striking several areas.
> What if the comet struck the moon? Would this likely have any catastrophic
> effect from debris, large cracks, mammoth tides or gravity waves. Or would
> we just see a new crater the next day?

If it was in the Dinosaur Killer range, we'd get some interesting
meteor showers. For example, look up tektites. They are thought to be
rock kicked up by a *large* impact on the moon, and which then got
swept up by the earth. 

We'd see a comet coming in. And it'd make a fair sized crater on the
moon. It might even give the moon a trace of atmosphere for a while.

BTW, if you want some fun, postulate a terraforming project by a minor
race humaniti that became extinct (say due to a war) after finishing
it. It's *possible* (though not terribly *practical*) to give a body
the size of the moon a breathable atmosphere. It takes a *lot of "soft
impacts" from comets. And it'll start getting kinda thin in 10k to 100k
years (thus you can't have it be left over from the Ancients, unless
you come up with an excuse why the atmsphere stuck around). 

But picture the look on the faces of the "how does it work" type
players when they find a world that small with a "normal" atmosphere.
:-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:24:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

In mail you write:

> Lloyd Robinson writes:
>>I seem to remember that in CT, the drop tanks were specially made for each
>>class of ship.
>
>>A fueling port would need to have *lots* of different types of drop tanks on
>>hand to be able to refuel *any* passing ship.
>
> The problem is this just doesn't make sense.  Why should they be so
> picky?  They just need a connection to the hull and the charges
> to blow them away.  It isn't even clear why you should need a 
> right next to the ship at all.  Just have a tube that you eject.

First thing is that you need connections (both fuel pipe and monuting
hardware) that match. 

Second, the tanks have to be of a size that holds enough fuel, without
holding too much. If they are too small, you won't have enough fuel for
that extra jump. If they are too big, you'll have fuel sloshing around
(*bad*!) AND you will be lugging around extra weight/volume.

If jump drives didn't use fuel in "chunks", then sizing wouldn't be as
important. 

Anyway, tanks will be sized according to the fuel needed for jump by a
given size ship. Nothing else makes sense from either an economic *or*
engineering point of view.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:32:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: This star really sucks...

In mail you write:

> Talk about a *bad* place to misjump to...
>
> High-Gravity Star Measured 
>
> United Press International
> C O L U M B U S,   Ohio,   April 20 - Scientists say a
> relatively small star is producing the strongest
> gravitational field ever measured in the universe,
> and is curving space around it in a way never seen
> before. 
>      They say the neutron star with as much mass as the Sun,
> but that is only 10 miles across has a pull 100 billion times
> stronger than the Earth. The gravity curves space itself,
> making nearby matter behave in ways not seen elsewhere but
> predicted by Einstein's theory of general relativity.
>
> Spacesuit Wouldn't Help 
> A human being on the surface of the neutron star "would be
> crushed into a molecular layer," Astrophysicist Fred Lamb 
> of the University of Illinois said. 
>      The neutron star orbits a normal star as part of a so-called
> "binary" star system. But the neutron star is a cannibal - its
                                                             ^^^
> intense gravity is stripping hot gas from the surface of its
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> companion...
  ^^^^^^^^^

It's worse than you think. The highlighted bit means that the star is
gaining mass. This may result in a nova when enough hydrogen
accumulates. Or, if the accumulation is fast enough, you'll get a
*supernova*, which will destroy the star and make life interesting for
anybody within 50-100 parsecs.

I'm not sure if anything "interesting" will happen if it can accumulate
enough mass to collapse into a black hole *without* detonating first. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:37:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

In mail you write:

>> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
>> but the ref in the game we're running now says..."

> I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the
> anihilation of positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make
> the appearance of a swirling crackling mass akin to being inside a
> nuclear reactor core.

Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing visible.
And the core of a nuclear reactor doesn't really look all that special.
Water cooled reactors may have a slight bluish glow in the water due to
Cerenkov radiation as particles go thru the water faster than the speed
of light in waater (but still below the speed of light in a vacuum). 

Air in the presence of *extremely* radioactive materials can glow from
ionization. But if you see this as anything other than a small bit of
material in a container a few meters away, you are dead, you just don't
know it yet. 

Which reminds me. Part II of the article on space medecine in Analog
had some lovely stuff about radiation hazards in space, and the effects
of exposure to radiation. 

I'm willing to accept that a "superdense" hull provides enough
shielding if there's a solar flare, but that could *really* cramp your
style if there's a flare going on and you *have* to do repairs on the
outside of the hull. 

In other words, who is going to pick a slow and nasty way of committing
suicide so the ship can get the hell out of there?

Advanced medical stuff will help, but in the cases of the ultrahigh
doses involved, the most serious damage is to the cells in the brain
and central nervous system. You may be able to replace the cells, but
that's like a partial brain transplant. Would you be "you" anymore?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:30:25 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Black Globes (Was: re: Jump details)

At 09:55 PM 24/04/98 -0700, David Smart wrote:
>Today, Rupert Boleyn posted:
>> > After working this out I came to the conclusion that
>> >TL15 warships would all have Black Globes, and who cares if nobody at
>> Tl-15
>> >really knows how they work. Even a 40% flicker rate is pretty good,
>> >especially given their stealth applications.
>
>And I replied:
>> The problem, though, is that TL15 black globes built by the Imperium
>> have a *10%* flicker rate (see High Guard, the Kinunir adventure, and
>> MT's Referee's Manual).
>> 
>> The 40% devices you mention are Ancient artifacts which are limited in
>> number to 100 or so and are tightly controlled/guarded by the IN.
>> Only some of them are actually installed in ships at the time of
>> Twilight's Peak (early 1100's) and these, IMO, are on selected
>> battlewagons and command ships...and the vessels guarding the
>> Ancient site in which they were discovered (also probably BBs).
>
>Well, I picked up FFS2 and realized I didn't know what I was
>talking about. This'll teach me to spout off from work when my
>books are at home.
>
>Rupert, you are correct about the flicker rate. I hope you'll
>accept my most sincere apology.
>
>-- 
>Sir Daven Hevelin, Order of Sylea
>(aka David.Smart@ons.octel.com)
>Owner/Captain, S.S. Warlock
>CEO - Security Merchants, Inc.

Of course I will, how could one refuse such a polite person? Besides I was
wrong about how small a ship could be and still rely on its Jump Drive HPGs
to sink the energy.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #433
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Saturday, April 25 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 434



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

True Gearhead Adventures!
Re: Active Traveller Campaings (Hamster Free)
Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: "calibration points"
Re: Population attitudes
Re: Classic 4 Sale...
Contacting Marc
Re: Wanted...
Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch
Re: Contacting Marc
Uplift thread
Re: Wanted...
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Wanted...
Room Number
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Room Number
Re: Uplift thread
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Jump details

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 98 11:27:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: True Gearhead Adventures!

This is for real.  Visit the web site mentioned below to see an MPEG of the
grill lighting!

         ====================================
               LIGHTING CHARCOAL GRILLS
                         or
          WHY ENGINEERS ARE THE WAY THEY ARE...
          =====================================

Our subject today is lighting charcoal grills.  One of our favorite
charcoal grill lighters is a guy named George Goble (really!!), a computer
person in the Purdue University engineering department.

Each year, Goble and a bunch of other engineers hold a picnic in West
Lafayette, Indiana, at which they cook hamburgers on a big grill. Being
engineers, they began looking for practical ways to speed up the
charcoal-lighting process. "We started by blowing the charcoal with a hair
dryer," Goble told me in a telephone interview.  "Then we figured out that
it would light faster if we used a vacuum cleaner." If you know anything
about (1) engineers and (2) guys in general, you know what happened: The
purpose of the charcoal-lighting shifted from cooking hamburgers to seeing
how fast they could light the charcoal.

From the vacuum cleaner, they escalated to using a propane torch, then an
acetylene torch.  Then Goble started using compressed pure oxygen, which
caused the charcoal to burn much faster, because as you recall from
chemistry class, fire is essentially the rapid combination of oxygen with
a reducing agent (the charcoal).   We discovered that a long time ago,
somewhere in the valley between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers (or
something along those lines).

By this point, Goble was getting pretty good times.  But in the world of
competitive charcoal-lighting, "pretty good" does not cut the mustard.
Thus, Goble hit upon the idea of using - get ready - liquid oxygen.  This
is the form of oxygen used in rocket engines; it's 295 degrees below zero
and 600 times as dense as regular oxygen.  In terms of releasing energy,
pouring liquid oxygen on charcoal is the equivalent of throwing a live
squirrel into a room containing 50 million Labrador retrievers.

On Gobel's Web page (the address is http://ghg.ecn.purdue.edu/), you can
see actual photographs and a video of Goble using a bucket attached to a
10-foot-long wooden handle to dump 3 gallons of liquid oxygen (not sold in
stores) onto a grill containing 60 pounds of charcoal and a lit cigarette
for ignition.  What  follows is the most impressive charcoal-lighting I
have ever seen, featuring a large fireball that according to Goble, reached
10,000  degrees Fahrenheit. The charcoal was ready for cooking in - this
has to be a world record - 3 seconds.

There's also a photo of what happened when Goble used the same technique on
a flimsy $2.88 discount-store grill. All that's left is a circle of charcoal
with a few shreds of metal in it.  "Basically, the grill vaporized," said
Goble.  "We were thinking of returning it to the store for a refund."

Looking at Goble's video and photos, I became, as an American, all choked up
with gratitude at the fact that I do not live anywhere near the engineers'
picnic site.  But also, I was proud of my country for producing guys who
can be ready to barbecue in less time than it takes for guys in less-advanced
nations, to spit.

Will the 3-second barrier ever be broken?  Will engineers come up with a
new, more powerful charcoal-lighting technology?  It's something for all of
us to ponder this summer as we sit outside, chewing our hamburgers, every
now and then glancing in the direction of West Lafayette, Indiana, looking
for a mushroom cloud.

Engineers are like that."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 10:42:36 -0400
From: "Commander X (aka Arcanus)" <cmdrx@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaings (Hamster Free)

Doh!  I sent the whole message instead of cutting and pasting and THEN
sending to TML.  The original was sent to home from work, I forgot that
there was a WinMail.dat attached to the original.

So before I get flamed publicly or privately, here is the Hamster Free
Repost.

- ----------------------
Location: IRC.  Undernet or (more likely) ntr severs.
Founding date: August 1997
Group size:  Currently 5
Number of referees:  1
Health:  Weak at first, but now in full swing!
Predominant rules system:  T4, drawing heavily from the ISBA setting.
Campaign location:  Planet X, a Starport in an 'empty' hex.
Campaign time:  M:0 (Year 21)
E-mail contact: cmdrx@magicnet.net.
Synopsis:  Planet X was an idea I had from the start of T4.  I wanted
a   
location that would not change with the UPP's and maps.  (i.e. the
Core   
subsector fiasco).  An Empty hex seemed approprate at the time.  The
port   
links the Zimiin and Sylean Mains and is a center of heavy trade and   
commerce.  Planet X is the home of X-TEK Industries, LIC.  Themes vary   
between covert ops, espionage, and intreague, to high adventure and   
general butt kicking.  And because it's X-TEK, GADGETS GADGETS and
more   
GADGETS!
Visit the web site www.magicnet.net/~cmdrx/xtek/products.htm for the   
GADGETS!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:59:45 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch

On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Robert Kondrk wrote:

> IIRC though, none of the digest archive files, .bun or otherwise, 
> seem to be in "vanilla text" format - you need MS Word or MS Wordpad 
> (which comes with Win 95) to read them. My guess is that .bun refers 
> to whatever batch process they use to combine files, since all of the 
> .bun files that I've seen there are compilations of nine or ten 
> digests. 

.bun = digest _bun_dle (a wild-ass guess, I admit)

Actually, they're in Unix 'vanilla text' format which ends lines with
newline characters only instead of DOS'es (and windows) Newline/Carriage
return pair (0D 0A for those of you who read hex, speaks the verteran of
having to bcp data from DOS text files into Unix dataabse servers) which
is why Notepad shows them with little black boxes instead of carriage
returns.

Both Word and WordPad do the conversions automatically, and I wish that
those _oh-so-talented_ software engineers at MicroSloth would simply fix
Notepad so that it could deal with both common types of ascii files, as it
would make life easier for those of us who have to deal with them all the
time.

To convert them from vanilla Unix to vanilla DOS text save them as 'Text
Only with Line Breaks' from Word or Word Pad.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:29:33 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

At 08:53 PM 4/24/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
>
>>I rather enjoy the discussions...
>
>You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel
room >at Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
but 
>the ref in the game we're running now says..."

No! Jumpspace is GREEN!!

Doug the Drazi.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:25:57 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: "calibration points"

I see the issue of calibration points as one ripe with possibilities.  A
major focus of espionage is going to be the location of the other side's
deep space refueling points.  Also, in the early stages of the 5FW, Zhodani
fleets probably made stealthy approches to Imperial space be making use of
a few of these deep sites.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
          jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
                   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 08:35:29 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Population attitudes

At 06:03 PM 4/24/98 -0400, you wrote:

>I've been trying to get a handle on the WBH. This looks a lot like
>the stuff in Grand Census. Am I correct in inferring that WBH is
>effectively a combination of Grand Survey and Grand Census?

Check.  WBH is GS and GC editied together with some parts cleaned up, a
much better presantation, and some additional information.


- --

Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html
*******************************************
"It is better to have more lightning in the
 brain and less thunder in the mouth."
                              -Sioux saying

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:22:09 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Classic 4 Sale...

In a message dated 98-04-24 13:24:50 EDT, you write:

<< 
 What are "official" Traveller dice?
 
  >>
Lou Zocchi did a set of black dice with red digits; I think the 1 was enclosed
in an Imperial Sunburst.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:46:10 +0100
From: "Harvester" <Harvester@btinternet.com>
Subject: Contacting Marc

Hi,
A while back someone gave out an e-mail address for Marc for ordering
books. I've tried the address FarFutures@aol.com a few times and nothing is
getting through, it says the address does not exist. Can someone tell me
how to get hold of him, or if he is still selling the books. Any help would
be gratefully received.

TIA

David
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
How many people do I have to kill before I finally get
some publicity
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Harvester@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 12:54:53 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted...

Scott,
If your local shop has several send me a private post to arrange payment a
mailing etc.
Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: XatoKuom <XatoKuom@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, April 25, 1998 4:26 AM
Subject: Re: Wanted...



>My local game shop has several copies of Arrival Vengeance.  You want me to
>grab you one?  I would love Solomani and Aslan, but, as you know, that's
about
>the hardest supplement to find ANYWHERE!!!   Quite frustrating!!!
>
>Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 14:43:48 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re:  Off-Topic - .bun extension used on TML messages in the arch

> IIRC though, none of the digest archive files, .bun or otherwise, 
> seem to be in "vanilla text" format - you need MS Word or MS Wordpad 

<snip>

Sorry, I meant to say "_not_ in 'vanilla text' format." That's what I 
get for doing my e-mail at 1am...

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 16:06:39 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Contacting Marc

> From: Harvester <Harvester@btinternet.com>
> 
> Hi,
> A while back someone gave out an e-mail address for Marc for ordering
> books. I've tried the address FarFutures@aol.com a few times and nothing
is
> getting through, it says the address does not exist. Can someone tell me
> how to get hold of him, or if he is still selling the books. Any help
would
> be gratefully received.
> 
> TIA

Try FarFuture@aol.com.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:01:19 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Uplift thread

Having started it, I've been watching it with interest (although
I've refrained from posting to it myself, until it becomes a
lively debate).

Let me remind people of the conditions:  You do not have any
advanced artifacts that will be useful; you simply have a massive
database of technical information.  So, if you want to introduce
nuclear power plants, you must already have in place the
infrastructure to support them.  This is something that is
seemingly being overlooked: if you want nutritional supplements,
you need a pharmaceutical/chemical infrastructure; if you want
advanced fertilizers, ditto.  Rather than trying to mimic Terran
development for a given period, look at what the key social
changes were that were created by various inventions, and if
necessary, come up with a new way to provide the same kind of
stimulus - for example, if you feel that the railroad was a key
because it made it possible to move larger numbers of people at
lower cost, try to come up with another way to do it - or even to
improve the cost/benefit ratio - for example, can you "do" a
"railroad" that operates more efficiently because the power plant
doesn't get hauled along from one end of the line to the other,
along with tonnes of fuel for the plant?  (It's possible!)  Air
travel (LTA vehicles) for long distances, even if travel time is
measured in days?  How do you get helium or hydrogen - or is
there another alternative?  Better water distribution and better
sanitation?  What alternatives to lead pipes do you have at the
indicated TL?  Can you make batteries?  At what TL?  What
improvements, if any, can immediately be made in firearms?  Is it
necessary to do so to achieve the goal?  What social and economic
changes are necessary?  Do you promote free trade?  Centralized
economic planning? Nationalization of industry?  High tariffs on
goods not produced locally?  Every empire for itself?
International forums for problem resolution? Exploitative labor
practices?

Many of you are fans of alternate-history science fiction
stories.  You are essentially in the same position as Corporal
Calvin Morrison, late of the Pennsylvania State Police - except
that you have the Encyclopedia of Science and Technology, instead
of a headful of Terran history.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:01:30 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted...

Is Arrival Vengence worth getting?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 18:00:38 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

At 1:23 AM -0500 4/25/98, Chris Seamans wrote:
>> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>>
>> Obviously Traveller jump drives require making up
>> some part of how they work but the rest should logically follow and
>> be in keeping with current knowledge.
>
>Why? Why not make up the whole thing to fit the flavor of your campaign.
>It's not that hard.

One problem I've always had with Traveller (I played CT) is that I had
to make everything up.  I like to have someone else write the background
and the rules and all that... that's why I buy gaming materials.

>> I have always disliked the idea of having a big black box on ships
>> that somehow takes hydrogen and makes the ship go.  You can have a
>> character with high levels of jump engineering who can build a jump
>> drive from scratch but you can't tell him what it's made out of and
>> what he could take it apart and make out of it.  This isn't an issue
>> of lack of detail... there's no clue what's in jump drives and yet
>> they are obviously made up of several parts (energy conversion,
>> storage, and jump generator).
>
>So? I also don't know what somebody who sports a high level knowledge of
>gravitics could make with a ship's Thruster Plates or the Grav Plates on an
>air/raft. I don't know what these plates are even made of. That's where
>make-believe and creativity come in.

Good point.  Those should be more defined, too.  CT was pretty bad about
leaving the maneuver drives totally unexplained as well.  It'd be nice
to have some explanation for grav plates, too.
>
>> My feeling is that, given the pivotal role of space ships and FTL
>> travel in Traveller, the various ship's systems should be explained.
>> Anyone who doesn't could ignore the explanations while those who wish
>> to play a more detailed or gritty game could use them.  Not having
>> explanations for how any of it works makes it hard for the GM or the
>> players to predict or play any situation which pushes the limits without
>> resorting to arbitrary explanations.
>
>But, any explanation of the way a Jump Drive works will be an arbitrary
>explanation. A canonized version won't help. My vision of Jump Space is
>completely different than Joe Petit's, for example. If Joe Petit's version
>were canon, it would not satisfy me at all. I'd still be in the same boat
>as now, making up my own version. I don't use the DGP and FF&S2 version of
>Jump Drives either (with the Hydrogen bubble and all that). I also don't
>use Zochai crystals.

A canon explanation for how jump drives work would help every player and
GM who doesn't care to make up his own explanation.  None of these people
would have to make up an explanation.  It would also give them some basis
for making up modifications and such as well as new technologies.  Those
who don't care for the canon explanation would still be just as free to
make up their own explanations.  Having an "official" explanation is
totally non-binding.  Many people on this list have shown that they have
no problem tossing whatever bits of canon they don't like.  Having a
canon explanation would also help Marc (and anyone else) come up with
internally consistent rules and advances to jump drives.  We've alread
seen what not having this does... we get all kinds of seemingly
inconsistent jump drive behaviors.

>But it's not a matter of my version, or Mr. Petit's version. Everyone has
>their own ideas about how Jump Space works specifically, and that's
>something I would like to continue to see in Traveller. The more stuff that
>is explained in the Traveller universe, the fewer the chances of someone
>coming up with their own ideas when they're playing.  Traveller becomes
>less and less flexible with the evergrowing morass of "canonized"
>technology.

No one is ever going to enforce canon.  Having a basic, "official"
explanation limits no one and helps those who don't care to develop
their own.  Again, I buy gaming materials so that I don't have to make
up my own rules and background.  I'll modify what I buy, but I like to
have a complete game and then choose what to modify not have gaping holes
that I have no choice but to fill.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 17:29:57 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted...

>Is Arrival Vengence worth getting?

Well, it's easier to get than the Azanti High Lighting deckplans, though it
doesn't have as complete a set of plans.  Plus the module makes a good read.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:24:07 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Room Number

Bloo said:

>GDW GAMES wrote:
>
>> Douglas Glatz said, in re Jump details
>>
>> >I rather enjoy the discussions...
>>
>> You wouldn't after the third time you got a call at 3 AM in your hotel room at
>> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple, but the ref
>> in the game we're running now says..."
>
>  You actually let your room number be known?

No, but at most hotels the operator will connect you with any registered guest
by name, provided you are calling from a house phone. At the better places,
you can program the phone for voice mail, etc., but in the mid-to-late 70s,
these services were not available. I don't know how Marc dealt with it, but he
and Frank used to get hit 10 times worse than I ever did. Frank solved the
problem by being GAMA president, so the room was not reserved in his name
(since GAMA paid for it).

I learned to unplug the phone. I also learned why the SF authors I approached
at SF-Cons had that "oh gawd, here we go again" look. I also began to get a
faint glimmer of what _real_ celebrity must be like.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:21:14 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

J-Man wrote:

> I tried scanning from my copy of Supplement #5, but the scans are pretty
> bad.  Sorry.

Thanx anyways... I've gotten several lines on Supp 5.  Am I to take it that
High Lightnings *only* have 13 decks?  How thick are each of the decks?  Also,
I thought most ships had their gravity perpendicular to the axis of thrust and
not opposite...  That threw me off at first... Would there be any effects to
that kind of design? Also for perpendicular designs?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:40:43 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Room Number

GDW GAMES wrote:

> I also learned why the SF authors I approached
> at SF-Cons had that "oh gawd, here we go again" look. I also began to get a
> faint glimmer of what _real_ celebrity must be like.

I never felt the urgent need to talk to my favorite authors, probably cause I was
fairlly young when I went to Cons.  But that sword cuts both ways.  After seeing
one of my favorite authors, who shall remain nameless but is affiliated with a
sci-fi alien race similar to the Aslan  <g>, acting like a spaz bouncing up and
down on a bed in the Con suite, pipe in mouth all the while, well, the
demystification was too much.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:44:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Uplift thread

Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

> This is something that is seemingly being overlooked: if you want
> nutritional supplements,
> you need a pharmaceutical/chemical infrastructure; if you want
> advanced fertilizers, ditto.

I should start with hygeine.  Clean water, clean food.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:52:45 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

> From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>
> One problem I've always had with Traveller (I played CT) is that I had
> to make everything up.  I like to have someone else write the background
> and the rules and all that... that's why I buy gaming materials.

Chalk it up to differences in playing styles, I guess. I would be extremely
disappointed if I bought a supplement that had many pages about J-Drives,
what they are, what they're made of, what you can make from them and so on.

> Good point.  Those should be more defined, too.  CT was pretty bad about
> leaving the maneuver drives totally unexplained as well.  It'd be nice
> to have some explanation for grav plates, too.

Leave J-Space and antigrav to the realm of individual GMs. I don't want to
see pages and pages of Star Trek style quasi-scientific gibberish.

> A canon explanation for how jump drives work would help every player and
> GM who doesn't care to make up his own explanation.  None of these people
> would have to make up an explanation.  It would also give them some basis

Thus removing the whole idea of "creativity" from the realm of Traveller.

> for making up modifications and such as well as new technologies.  Those
> who don't care for the canon explanation would still be just as free to
> make up their own explanations.  Having an "official" explanation is
> totally non-binding.  Many people on this list have shown that they have
> no problem tossing whatever bits of canon they don't like.  Having a
> canon explanation would also help Marc (and anyone else) come up with
> internally consistent rules and advances to jump drives.  We've alread
> seen what not having this does... we get all kinds of seemingly
> inconsistent jump drive behaviors.

Apparently Marc doesn't agree with that. According to something I read on
this list the other day, he's not going to explain the workings of J-Drives
in T4.1.  Other than that, it's a moot point. Any new invention based on
J-Drives will be shot down in short order as it will violate canon in some
way or another, or will require 16 gazillion handwaves to explain why
K'Kree Corn Husker Class ships use the technology, but no one else does...

> No one is ever going to enforce canon.  Having a basic, "official"
> explanation limits no one and helps those who don't care to develop
> their own.  Again, I buy gaming materials so that I don't have to make
> up my own rules and background.  I'll modify what I buy, but I like to
> have a complete game and then choose what to modify not have gaping holes
> that I have no choice but to fill.

And I prefer not to have my gaming materials filled with pages and pages of
quasi-scientific gibberish concerning J-Drives and Antigravity.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:28:14 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

Chris Seamans wrote:

> > From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >
> > If you don't care how a ship works, don't give the characters a ship.
> Just put
> > them on liners and ignore the whole time on board.
>
> So what do you propose then exactly? Instead give them a ship and then have
> them micromanage the entire ship's voyage? I've run a Traveller game now
> since September, the party has not once needed (or requested) to know the
> specifics behind Jump. All they know about Jump is:
>
> 1.) The ship needs a Jump Drive in order to engage in Jump.
> 2.) Jumps of any length take about a week.
> 3.) Jump is travel through an alternate dimension.
>
> That's all they've ever needed to know.
>

So, they know the jump procedure table... That's fine. Have they ever had
problems with their jump drive?  Did they ever have an adventure focusing on
their jump drive? If not, then yes, that's all they've ever needed to know.
As soon as they need a little detail on their jump drive, that jump procedure
table can be tossed right out the airlock.

> > Players: "We need to get to MacGuffin system to continue the adventure."
> > GM: "OK, 10 days later you arive in MacGuffin system sans 10Kcreds each."
>
> <SARCASM ON>
> Okay. I get it now! Gearheadedness is now a measuring of GMing and playing
> ability! I'm sorry I didn't get it sooner. I'll pack up my books and sell
> them. Anyone want a bunch of Traveller stuff? CT, MT, TNE, T4, all versions
> represented!
> <SARCASM OFF>
>
> My players have a ship, and I prefer not to spend late nights figuring out
> how J-Drive works!
>

That's perfectly fine. I'm just saying that if you don't care how a jump drive
works, you shouldn't complain about others posting their own theories.

> HA! So there.
>

I'm so terribly wounded... I don't know that I can finish this post...

> Big deal. There's no reason to say that people who prefer not to think long
> and hard about this stuff have no right to play a certain way. That's just
> stupid, and it seems to border  on trolling.
>

No, that's perfectly fine.  Again, my suggestion is that if you don't care,
stay out of it. If details of jump drives become sufficiently unimportant in
your (or anyone else's) game, you might as well avoid the issue entirely and
just remove the players from ship ops entirely.

> > Then you get to get on with your oh so important mission without worrying
> the
> > least bit about how jump drives work, or anything else having to do with
> > advanced technology.
>
> I don't care to think overly long and hard about J-Drive, so sue me. It's
> no big deal.

That's perfectly fine.

> In the future, kindly refrain from telling me how to play my
> game, and I'll refrain from telling you how to play yours. Pretty simple.
>

Err... that wasn't directed at you.  That was general advise to anybody that
doesn't want to deal ship operations.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #434
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Sunday, April 26 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 435



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: Jump details
Re: Changing the background
Re: Drop tanks
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
To tech or not to tech?
Re: Wanted...
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Atmospheric Terraforming (was Re: What if a comet hit...)
Re: Population attitudes
Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300
Re: Drop tanks
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:09:41 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
> >> but the ref in the game we're running now says..."
>
> > I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the
> > anihilation of positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make
> > the appearance of a swirling crackling mass akin to being inside a
> > nuclear reactor core.
>
> Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing visible.

THIS is why I post here.  People know more than me...OK, how about this...
What happens when a gamma ray collides with a neutron?  And while I'm asking
subatomics, what exactly is a neutrino?

> And the core of a nuclear reactor doesn't really look all that special.
> Water cooled reactors may have a slight bluish glow in the water due to
> Cerenkov radiation as particles go thru the water faster than the speed
> of light in waater (but still below the speed of light in a vacuum).
>

Hmm... what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a vacuum?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:41:51 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

David P. Summers wrote:

> Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:45:44 -0400, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >> >The big problem with
> >> >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
> >> >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
>
> >> Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
> >> the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
> >> is burned at....
>
> >If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?
>
> Nothing say it doesn't just go right into jumping....

You mean like a wormhole? Like, you form a wormhole that spans the distance between
the two systems and it takes a week to fly through it?  That kind of jumping? Or
do you mean that fuel is used to shift you into jumpspace?  In either case, you've
just used up all your fuel.  How do you get from one point (either an end of a
wormhole, or motion through jump space)  to the other?  How do you control a 28
Trillion Mj explosion?  Finally, going back to the original point of contention,
drop tanks require the use of some sort of capacitor to hold the energy long enough
to eject the drop tank, which pretty much says it doesn't go right into jumping.

>
>
> >  If the
> >energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump space for the week?
>
> Physics.  It takes energy to get you into orbit, but you can stay
> there indefinately....
>

OK, now that you've expended all this energy to get into jumpspace, how do you get
out?

> > If you
> >don't burn the fuel the most efficiently possible for the tech level, then you
> >could use less fuel and just burn it efficiently.
>
> Who says you aren't buring it the most efficient way possible?

Somebody posted that as a possibility, I was replied with the reduced fuel
consumption problem.

> Who says a high throughput reactor will be as efficient as a
> low throughput.
>

Nobody, but at TL 11- you definitely can't put a fusion reactor on any reasonably
sized jump drive (i.e. PC ship) because the minimum size is too  big.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:51:48 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > David P. Summers wrote:
> >
> >> Thu, 23 Apr 1998 14:25:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> > <rancke@diku.dk>
> >> >The big problem with
> >> >the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
> >> >capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
> >>
> >> Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
> >> the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
> >> is burned at....
> >
> > If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store
> > it?
>
> It's stored in the jump field. Just like pumping energy into an
> induction coil, except for the magnetic field, the power seems to be
> going "nowhere". And if you suddenly *stop* dumping energy into the
> field, you'll get one hell of a power spike back *out*.
>

OK, how do you get that drop tank through this field without disrupting it?

> > If the energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump
> > space for the week?
>
> Well, carrying on with the above analogy, When the field reaches a
> certain "strength" you pop into jumpspace.
>
> We can go several directions after that. The field keeps you there, and
> it decays until it reaches a level where it's not strong enough to
> *keep* you in jump space. There are lots of real world situations
> where the energy required to *start* something is a lot higher than the
> energy required to keep it going once it starts.
>
> Or, the field could be "consumed" by your entry into jumpspace an some
> other feature of the drive "keeps" you in jumpspace.
>
> Either way, this works *very* well with the bit about having to build
> power in a short period and not being able to stop in the middle. The
> stresses in the coils/grid/whatever from building up to the required
> entry field strength can only be maintained for so long (like the
> tendency of a strong magnetic field to make the coil explode). Once you
> get into jump, the srtresses are gone (either because the field is
> gone, or because j-space itself compensates).

How do you now get out of jump space?  How do you account for temporal
variations (6-8 days for a normal jump) and misjumps (5-10 days) or
catastrophic misjumps (which keep you in jump space for weeks)?

Remember that accepting drop tanks (as described) means that you've front
loaded your power consumption.  If you don't use it right away (like a nuke),
you've got to store it for use during the week long trip.  If you're able to
store the power of a nuclear blast, make sure that you account for the other
ramifications.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:11:14 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>
> So, they know the jump procedure table... That's fine. Have they ever had
> problems with their jump drive?  Did they ever have an adventure focusing on
> their jump drive? If not, then yes, that's all they've ever needed to know.
> As soon as they need a little detail on their jump drive, that jump procedure
> table can be tossed right out the airlock.

Okay. I see your point now. I will print up 50 page manuals on the jump
drive for my players tomorrow!

> That's perfectly fine. I'm just saying that if you don't care how a jump
drive
> works, you shouldn't complain about others posting their own theories.

I don't think I complained. I did say, "Why bother?" about a week or so
ago. In fact, the way this thread went just before I got involved was:

Somebody said something along the lines of: There are two types of people,
those who are interested in the workings of every minor things, and those
who aren't. You then replied that those who aren't interested in
micromanagement of Jump Drives shouldn't allow their players to have ships.
I asked what you meant, because that seemed silly, and you made your point
clear.

On the other hand, I don't know what every single part and every single
wire does in a car...  Yet I can drive one. Go figure!

> No, that's perfectly fine.  Again, my suggestion is that if you don't care,
> stay out of it. If details of jump drives become sufficiently unimportant in
> your (or anyone else's) game, you might as well avoid the issue entirely and
> just remove the players from ship ops entirely.

My suggestion is this: don't make broad, sweeping generalizations about the
way people on this list SHOULD play their games. That's what I responded
to. 

> Err... that wasn't directed at you.  That was general advise to anybody that
> doesn't want to deal ship operations.

I don't think you're understanding a basic idea here:

J-Drives are complete and utter fantasy based on Science-Fiction
literature, specifically (it would seem) the Foundation series. It is
nothing more than a means of simulating FTL travel by side-stepping the
rules of science.

With that being said, whether the players have 50 pages of quasi-scientific
babble or not, the operations of a ship will still be the same as if they
knew nothing. An ex-girlfriend of mine's head would swim anytime anything
remotely scientific or math-related came up. She knew nothing about the
innards of her car. Yet, she was an excellent driver.

What that means is: If I choose to not give a damn about the way a Jump
Drive works, I can still give my PCs a ship, and they can still operate
one. It's that simple. Your smarmy holier-than-thou attitude concerning how
people should or should not play their games is completely without warrant,
and at least from me, unappreciated.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:09:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Fri, 24 Apr 1998 23:24:14 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a
>>big part of the background.  The idea there will not be things
>>like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where ships arrive and depart
>>from is another big change.  That is just off the top of my head.

>  The latter is one hell of a good point. Although there may not be
>an explicit "there will not be things like...", the portrayal of
>such would be completely new and eventually reshape much of the
>background.

Which is my point.

>>All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
>>was in charge.  It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings
>>of society.
>
>  How about blew them up real good?

>  The brief diatribe above seems to apply more to normal politics
>than to an armed civil war, in which social attitudes seem to get
>substantially modified along with the liquidation of various
>portions of that society. The 3I was a coherent if fragile society.
>After the Rebellion gets rolling there is no real chance of a unified
>Imperium emerging, even if a single nominal master could be established
>with massive military force.
>
>  There might be a point to what's being discussed, but describing
>the Rebellion as unimportant seems both untenable and slightly
>ridiculous.

Which was not my point.  My point is that it is not a fundamental
change to the background like changing the entire basis for
movement and communications.  Sure the Rebellion changed a lot
of things that were important to a lot of people.  But the
basics of life are the same.  In fact, for PC's, the big change
would seem to be mostly who the bad guys are.

I should also be noted that the idea that history is unduly
obsessed by wars and politics is not new to me.  I has been
the contention by various people who have studied the issue
in the past.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:13:16 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:24:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> The problem is this just doesn't make sense.  Why should they be so
>> picky?  They just need a connection to the hull and the charges
>> to blow them away.  It isn't even clear why you should need a
>> right next to the ship at all.  Just have a tube that you eject.

>First thing is that you need connections (both fuel pipe and monuting
>hardware) that match.

Which, even today, borders on thivial.  Sure it's a pain to have to
hunt around for the right fitting, but it hardly constitutes a need
for specially designed tanks.

>Second, the tanks have to be of a size that holds enough fuel, without
>holding too much. If they are too small, you won't have enough fuel for
>that extra jump. If they are too big, you'll have fuel sloshing around
>(*bad*!) AND you will be lugging around extra weight/volume.

I'm not sure what you mean.  You leave the tanks behind, the extra
fuel won't be a problem.  Even if it was true, you would have
tanks for each size of ship, not for each _type_ of ship.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:17:24 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:37:08 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
>>> but the ref in the game we're running now says..."

>> I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the
>> anihilation of positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make
>> the appearance of a swirling crackling mass akin to being inside a
>> nuclear reactor core.

>Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing visible.

I like the explination; "Close your eyes.  That is what it looks
like, except for all the blackness".  It gives a sense of jump
space looking like nothing you ever seen before (and in fact like
_nothing_, at least that _you_ can sense) and give is greater sense
of wonder.  I also try to impress to my players the tedium of
sitting inside of somthing that has as much space as an apartment
without being able to go out or even see anything out the window...

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:07:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

>Thanx anyways... I've gotten several lines on Supp 5.  Am I to take it that
>High Lightnings *only* have 13 decks?  How thick are each of the decks?  Also,
>I thought most ships had their gravity perpendicular to the axis of thrust and
>not opposite...  That threw me off at first... Would there be any effects to
>that kind of design? Also for perpendicular designs?

  Eighty-odd decks using the geomorphic maps provided; many of the
decks are fuel. The decks are listed as each being 4.5m of the ships
length, except 18m for the hangars. Much of the fuel is abstracted
off the deckplans and into the spaces of the tail.

  The AHL has its gravity planes perpendicular to the axis of thrust.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:10:13 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: To tech or not to tech?

>> have a complete game and then choose what to modify not have gaping holes
>> that I have no choice but to fill.
>
>And I prefer not to have my gaming materials filled with pages and pages of
>quasi-scientific gibberish concerning J-Drives and Antigravity.

  I can see where "quasi-scientific gibberish" could be a problem,
although GDW had a fairly good load of real physics in there. The
real problem to me is the difference between technical handwaving
(anti-grav, Jump) and the intelligent, well-managed exploration of
the ramifications.

  This is where you get differences between Trek and Traveller.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:10:34 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Wanted...

Thanks; I already have AHL, so I guess I'll pass then...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 01:20:14 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

The AHL's had 84 decks. Obviously there were numerous repeats. For example,
there are six gunnery decks (representing the 24 bays). The supplement lists
all 84 decks, and which set of plans to use for each deck. Yeah, the deck
plans are weird, when you think of starships as being wet navy ships with the
decks running the long way. I guess with artificial gravity plates, you design
the decks as it suits other considerations. BTW I think the x boat has decks
layered like this. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 02:03:27 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

> From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
> 
>   I can see where "quasi-scientific gibberish" could be a problem,
> although GDW had a fairly good load of real physics in there. The
> real problem to me is the difference between technical handwaving
> (anti-grav, Jump) and the intelligent, well-managed exploration of
> the ramifications.

Hmmm...  My point isn't getting across as completely as I'd like it to.  I
need to rethink my approach :^).

Although I will shake my fist at what I see to be Traveller's dated view of
science-fiction (and I don't want to get into a discussion of that again.
We all have our own opinions on that, and I'm fine with it), I do _not_
want to see Traveller get bogged down with pages and pages of largely
irrelevant facts.

I don't want to have to become a J-Drive technician in order to run
J-Drives in my campaign. I don't _want_ to go deeper than the charts and
tables in the rulebooks for several reasons, the first of which is what
we'll call the law of the munchkin, which is:

Any time that something is sufficiently detailed and explained, there will
always be some loophole or some angle that you've missed that your PCs
_will_ exploit to their fullest advantage.

This doesn't just happen with munchkins, this happens with all thinking
players the world over. There will be some loophole in there, somewhere,
that will knock you on your ass when you least expect it.

Furthermore, as the rules stand now (several different versions of J-Space
travel, some contradictory) it's great. Everyone has to make up their own
rules. If everything gets codified into one, it becomes more difficult for
a GM to say, "this is how it works in MY Traveller universe", because
several of the players have books that describe exactly how J-Space works.

The final point, it should be a mystery. All of the answers about J-Space
should be left up to the GMs and their campaigns. Is J-Space an artifact
left by the ancients? Is it natural? What are J-Space's effects on
psionics? etc...  All of these things should be left up to the GM, and not
left out for players to stumble upon accidentally.

>This is where you get differences between Trek and Traveller.

What we shouldn't forget is that Traveller is a role playing game, not a TV
series. There is not one editorial staff who makes up the plots and decides
how the characters will interact. There are at the very least a few hundred
GMs out there, each with differing ideas and opinions on how Traveller
works, and how each piece of technology in the Traveller universe should
act.

And in my opinion, that's one of the good things about Traveller.

Chris Seamans
semo@pil.net

"What is your one purpose in life?" - Doolittle
"To explode, of course!" - Thermostellar Bomb #20
     -  from the film "Dark Star"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:07:54 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Atmospheric Terraforming (was Re: What if a comet hit...)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote

> BTW, if you want some fun, postulate a terraforming project by a minor
> race humaniti that became extinct (say due to a war) after finishing
> it. It's *possible* (though not terribly *practical*) to give a body
> the size of the moon a breathable atmosphere. It takes a *lot of "soft
> impacts" from comets. And it'll start getting kinda thin in 10k to 100k
> years (thus you can't have it be left over from the Ancients, unless
> you come up with an excuse why the atmsphere stuck around). 

The Droyne prefer a dense atmosphere, will this make any difference ?

I thought I had seen a terraforming book state that an atmosphere would
last about 50,000 years on a moon sized object but for every 1,000 miles
or so of increased diameter it would last ten times longer.  If this
claim was correct then an atmosphere on a size 3 world should last
500,000 years & any planets terraformed by the ancients should still
have an atmosphere, albeit one about 1 atmospheric type thinner.

Who is to say that Ancient Terraforming projects are not still going on,
perhaps in the form of Ancient Bioengineered lichens that can live in a
near vacuum and work to put oxygen in the atmosphere.  The beauty of
this theory is that the players will never know unless the lichens
genetic squences are analyzed. (Of course the Imperium has probably
already done that in many cases.)

> 
> But picture the look on the faces of the "how does it work" type
> players when they find a world that small with a "normal" atmosphere.

But the players should be used to finding smaller than moon sized
objects with standard atmospheres.  One out of every 36 _very_ small
(size 1) planets in the habitable zone will have a standard atmosphere. 
(Atmosphere is 2d6 - 7 + Size - so a roll of 12 - 7 +1 = 6 or standard
atmosphere)  One out of every twelve moon sized planets will have a
standard density atmosphere although 1/3 of those will be tainted.





- -- 
Peter Newman		pnewman@alaska.net

"Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer.  Le monde va de lui-mme."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:37:29 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Population attitudes

dberry@hooked.net wrote

> > Am I correct in inferring that WBH is
> >effectively a combination of Grand Survey and Grand Census?
> 
> Check.  WBH is GS and GC editied together with some parts cleaned up, 
> a much better presantation, and some additional information.

However World Builders Handbook does leave out one of the more important
rules from Grand Census, the Intelligent Native Life Determination.

Grand Census says (page 28)

As of 1113 Imperial there are 426 minor races in the Imperium, about 40
of which are minor human races.

To determine if a world with native life is the homeworld of a minor
race roll 3d6 for 17+ with a DM of +3 if the worlds population is 6+. 
If this roll is successful a further 3d6 roll of 15+ indicates a minor
human race.  

When I generate an area of space, or when I detail a precreated sector
one of the first things I do is determine for each planet if it has
native life.  I then check for native races.

I list this data at the very end of the planetary data string, as the
following example lists.  This example is a TNE dual 1201 & 1117 data
listing for part of the Verge Combine a TNE pocket empire.  (note that
the 1117 data gives some stars as type M D but the the 1201 data lists
those stars as M V this represents my use of Harold Hales suggestion for
correccting star types in raveller)

Name   HexNbr  UWP  Bases Codes &      Zone PBG  Alleg- Stellar   Life
                          Comments               iance   Data
                                                   
Biwrup        2417 C544635-7    Ag Ni B:9     204 Im M4 V M0 D    Y MHR
                   D544676-6    Ag Ni B:9    G504 Na M4 V M0 V
Kheshkinshii  2508 C474033-8    Lo Ni         224 Im K4 V M6 D    Y
                   X474000-0    Ba           R024 Wi K4 V M6 V
Sagu          2510 B310201-E    Lo Ni         502 Im K0 V         N
                   X310000-0    Ba           R002 -- K0 V
Montgomery    2515 E333556-8    Ni Po         803 Im K4 II M1 D   Y
                   E333000-0    Ba           G003 VC K4 II M1 V  
Hyongyen      2517 A869569-C    Ni O:2519 F:6 800 Im F1 V         Y MR
Firvo              C869656-A    Ni F:7       A100 Cs F1 V

Codes & Comments

Life: 	Y =  native life is present
	N = no native life is present
	MR = a minor race is native to this planet
	MHR = a minor human race is "native" to this planet

 All Alien Populations over 1% are indicated
B: = Biwrup Population (a minor human race)
F: = Firvo Population

- -- 
Peter Newman		pnewman@alaska.net

"Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer.  Le monde va de lui-mme."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:50:21 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300

If you haven't looked at Halfway Station, Andy Slack's website,

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/AndySlack/traveler.htm

do so! It's got the text from some of the best WD articles on Traveller,
and also his material for 2300.

Some of the Everything you know about articles are quite excellent.

Musings:
- -------

At the Dudley Bug Ball (a con in the UK last weekend), when I got a few
moments from running a demo for BITS (basically a playtest scenario set in
M0 involving the players in politics and nobility) I had a look at one of
the game stands and picked up 'Bayern' and 'Ranger' for 2300 at a
reasonable price. The former looks great (and could even be run as a sequel
to 2010 if you wanted to play fast and loose with the background). I'm not
sure how easy it would be to run an extended campaign with it though...
The latter (Ranger) is a great source on the Eber and the Texas Rangers.
Unfortunately it seems to be a little xenophobic towards the Arabs, but
otherwise okay.

Anyway, this set me thinking (and this is the Traveller bit). Andy's page
describes running Traveller with 2300 rules (and gives conversion tips) -
but has anyone tried running it the other way?

I always liked the 2300 background, but I much prefer the T4.1 style rules
that Traveller has. It loks like you could look at equivalent tasks,
convert the weapons (maybe generate vehicles with Infini-V) and use the
starships rules from 2300 as they are. If anyone has tried this, it would
be interesting to hear about.

Dom (who thinks this is verging on off-topic, but hey, it is the T4 rules
I'm talking about)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:55:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

In mail you write:

> Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:24:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>> The problem is this just doesn't make sense.  Why should they be so
>>> picky?  They just need a connection to the hull and the charges
>>> to blow them away.  It isn't even clear why you should need a
>>> right next to the ship at all.  Just have a tube that you eject.
>
>>First thing is that you need connections (both fuel pipe and monuting
>>hardware) that match.
>
> Which, even today, borders on thivial.  Sure it's a pain to have to
> hunt around for the right fitting, but it hardly constitutes a need
> for specially designed tanks.

Remember, this stuff is at the very least "quick release". More likely
it uses "explosive bolts". Which means that you *don't* just go
slapping adapters on.

>>Second, the tanks have to be of a size that holds enough fuel, without
>>holding too much. If they are too small, you won't have enough fuel for
>>that extra jump. If they are too big, you'll have fuel sloshing around
>>(*bad*!) AND you will be lugging around extra weight/volume.
>
> I'm not sure what you mean.  You leave the tanks behind, the extra
> fuel won't be a problem.  Even if it was true, you would have
> tanks for each size of ship, not for each _type_ of ship.

If there actually *is* extra fuel, having it spraying out (why put
check valves in a drop tank?) could cause problems. If you just filled
the tank part way, you get the fuel shifting around. And either way,
you've got a *heavier* tank than your ship was intended to use.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:59:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> >> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
>> >> but the ref in the game we're running now says..."
>>
>> > I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the
>> > anihilation of positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make
>> > the appearance of a swirling crackling mass akin to being inside a
>> > nuclear reactor core.
>>
>> Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing visible.
>
> THIS is why I post here.  People know more than me...OK, how about this...
> What happens when a gamma ray collides with a neutron?

Short answer: they bounce off each other

Long answer, the gamma ray may be absorbed and then re-emitted at a
slightly different wavelength, so as to make up for momentum transfer.

> And while I'm asking subatomics, what exactly is a neutrino?

A particle that is *damn* hard to detect. Of the "normal" particle
properties, all it has are spin and momentum. A neutron is composed of
an electron, a proton, and an anti-neutrino. An anti-neutron is
composed of a positron, an anti-proton, and a neutrino. (and if you
want to get complicated, the proton and anti-proton are composed of
3 quarks each).

That's why fission and fusion reactions give off neutrinos or
anti-neutrinos. The protons being converted into neutrons (or vice
versa) release them.

>> And the core of a nuclear reactor doesn't really look all that special.
>> Water cooled reactors may have a slight bluish glow in the water due to
>> Cerenkov radiation as particles go thru the water faster than the speed
>> of light in waater (but still below the speed of light in a vacuum).
>
> Hmm... what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a vacuum?

That's why you need to be insulated from it. Increasing the value of c
does *nasty* things to matter (in fact *most* physical constants need
to be pretty close to what we measure them at, or we wouldn't be here
to measure them).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #435
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Traveller-digest       Monday, April 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 436



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tanks
Re: Jump details
Re: Jump details
Missing Armageddon Playtesters?
Hull repairs during solar flares
Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?
Active Traveller Campaigns
RE: Jump details
Re: Room Number
Re: Jump details
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300 AD
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Changing the background
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Pirates in T4?  Proposed Career Addition

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:12:01 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks


>In mail you write:
>
>> Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:24:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>>> The problem is this just doesn't make sense.  Why should they be so
>>>> picky?  They just need a connection to the hull and the charges
>>>> to blow them away.  It isn't even clear why you should need a
>>>> right next to the ship at all.  Just have a tube that you eject.
>>
>>>First thing is that you need connections (both fuel pipe and monuting
>>>hardware) that match.
>>
>> Which, even today, borders on thivial.  Sure it's a pain to have to
>> hunt around for the right fitting, but it hardly constitutes a need
>> for specially designed tanks.
>
>Remember, this stuff is at the very least "quick release". More likely
>it uses "explosive bolts". Which means that you *don't* just go
>slapping adapters on.
>

What about "universal fittings"?  The Gazelle has set the precedent now all
other ships should match the setup that already exists.  Kinda like the
unleaded gas nozzle at all pumps around the world.  The U.S. has universal
fittings that match a constant in NATO for all war planes.
>
>>>Second, the tanks have to be of a size that holds enough fuel, without
>>>holding too much. If they are too small, you won't have enough fuel for
>>>that extra jump. If they are too big, you'll have fuel sloshing around
>>>(*bad*!) AND you will be lugging around extra weight/volume.
>>
>> I'm not sure what you mean.  You leave the tanks behind, the extra
>> fuel won't be a problem.  Even if it was true, you would have
>> tanks for each size of ship, not for each _type_ of ship.
>
>If there actually *is* extra fuel, having it spraying out (why put
>check valves in a drop tank?) could cause problems. If you just filled
>the tank part way, you get the fuel shifting around. And either way,
>you've got a *heavier* tank than your ship was intended to use.
>
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
You have fuel sloshing around in your ship all the time when maneuvering
through a system.  The would need to grapple the tank when retrieving it and
sure that like todays river boat pilots (who deal with half empty fuel
barges all the time) they would get the training needed to deal with
compensation for fuel that's left over.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:28:24 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

>
>Anders Backman wrote:
>
>> >IIRC Jump drive works using the scientific principle of 'necessary plot
>> >device' to move players between the stars....
>> >
>> >Dom
>>
>> There are two kinds of people:
>> 1 Those that think about an item in terms of what it does.
>> 2 Those that think about an item in terms of how it does it.
>> Me and my players suffer from being in group two and therefore have to
>> know/handwave lots of stuff in Traveller in order to suspend disbelief.
>
>I'd like to add that people in group one should stay out of this argu...
err...
>discussion, as they are already happy. I'd likewise suggest that an entire
>group of type ones should stay off ships.  i.e. if the adventure takes them
off
>planet, they should book some rooms on a liner and then POOF, they appear
on
>the next planet.

>
I think you need to add a third group: Those that think about an item in
terms of what it does and like to discuss REASONABLY how it does it.  Just
because your first look at an item gives you thirty new ways to add flavor
to your game DOES NOT mean that you don't enjoy the gear headedness to a
certain point.  I think myself and a few others fall into this category and
it kind of gauls me that people think you don't have anything to add if you
happen to like items for what they do.  I personally love playing a
Scout/Pilot but I do accept the fact that I don't have clue one how a jump
drive works.  Smoke and mirrors comes to mind.  Give me the rich detail of
Star Ship operations anytime over ground pounding.  Maybe that comes from
being the Army for so long. Hehehehe

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:51:14 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

>
>Chris Seamans wrote:
>
>> > From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>> >
>> > If you don't care how a ship works, don't give the characters a ship.
>> >Just put them on liners and ignore the whole time on board.
>>
>> So what do you propose then exactly? Instead give them a ship and then
have
>> them micromanage the entire ship's voyage? I've run a Traveller game now
>> since September, the party has not once needed (or requested) to know the
>> specifics behind Jump. All they know about Jump is:
>>
>> 1.) The ship needs a Jump Drive in order to engage in Jump.
>> 2.) Jumps of any length take about a week.
>> 3.) Jump is travel through an alternate dimension.
>>
>> That's all they've ever needed to know.
>>
>
>So, they know the jump procedure table... That's fine. Have they ever had
>problems with their jump drive?  Did they ever have an adventure focusing on
>their jump drive? If not, then yes, that's all they've ever needed to know.
>As soon as they need a little detail on their jump drive, that jump procedure
>table can be tossed right out the airlock.
>
>> > Players: "We need to get to MacGuffin system to continue the adventure."
>> > GM: "OK, 10 days later you arive in MacGuffin system sans 10Kcreds each."
>>
>> My players have a ship, and I prefer not to spend late nights figuring out
>> how J-Drive works!
>
>That's perfectly fine. I'm just saying that if you don't care how a jump drive
>works, you shouldn't complain about others posting their own theories.
>
>> Big deal. There's no reason to say that people who prefer not to think long
>> and hard about this stuff have no right to play a certain way. That's just
>> stupid, and it seems to border  on trolling.
>
>No, that's perfectly fine.  Again, my suggestion is that if you don't care,
>stay out of it. If details of jump drives become sufficiently unimportant in
>your (or anyone else's) game, you might as well avoid the issue entirely and
>just remove the players from ship ops entirely.
>
>> > Then you get to get on with your oh so important mission without worrying
>>> the least bit about how jump drives work, or anything else having to do with
>> > advanced technology.
>>
>> I don't care to think overly long and hard about J-Drive, so sue me. It's
>> no big deal.
>
>That's perfectly fine.
>
>> In the future, kindly refrain from telling me how to play my
>> game, and I'll refrain from telling you how to play yours. Pretty simple.
>>
>
>Err... that wasn't directed at you.  That was general advise to anybody
that
>doesn't want to deal ship operations.
>
The problem is, you seem to think that just because a person isn't stumbling
all over themselves trying figure something out that doesn't exist you can
tell them to stay out of any discussions concerning it and their input is
useless and a waste of time.  On top of that your feelings are those people
can't be involved in day to day operations of a star ship and they should
just jump on a liner and AUTOMAGICALLY arrive 163 hours later.  What
freaking arrogance.  Lets hear your explanation of jump drive  Mr. Traveller
Engineer, Ph.d. and we'll make it canon. NOT!  Ideas are what are being
pushed here and good (I hope, because I believe our experts when they post)
physics, astro physics, mechanical engineering, structural engineering,
math, biology, chemistry and on and on.  Everyone has some input, not always
good and hopefully not always bad.  Even your input was appreciated for this
letter, I now know I wouldn't want to play in one of your games.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:05:32 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:08:51 -0400, you wrote:

Please excuse the waste of bandwidth ...

Several members of the list helped in playtesting "Armageddon" for me -- I have
sent the final PDF copy of Book #1 and am almost ready to send Book #2 (the
Index needs to be done, only two pages to go!) ... but a number of the addresses
I have bounced Book #1! At 2 MB per file, I don't want *that* to happen multiple
times again! Even ordinary email is bouncing ... you know who you are (if you're
still on the list), so email me and we can work out a way to get the file to
you!

Phil

- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 15:30:37 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Hull repairs during solar flares

Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:37:08 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>I'm willing to accept that a "superdense" hull provides enough
>shielding if there's a solar flare, but that could *really* cramp your
>style if there's a flare going on and you *have* to do repairs on the
>outside of the hull. 
>
>In other words, who is going to pick a slow and nasty way of committing
>suicide so the ship can get the hell out of there?

When doing repairs on the outside under such conditions, just stay in the shadow of the hull. If the hull is rotating, it might prolong the time it takes to make repairs, but most of the time, this simple trick will solve the problem.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:09:20 EDT
From: SW Mego <SWMego@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?

Yeah, the first one never made it to me! :)

Derek...
swmego@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 09:58:22 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns

Location:  Janesville, WI USA
Founding date: February 1998
Group size: 6
Number of referees: 1
Health:  Excellent
Predominant rules system: T4 & CT
Campaign location:  Spinward Marches
Campaign time:  1110
E-mail contact:  jdpearson@wr.net

James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:16:51 -0700
From: "Jeff Cornish" <boy_scout@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Jump details

Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 23:11:14 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jump details

Joe Pettit jpettit@ix.netcom.com and Chris Seamans (Semo@pil.net) have been
duking it out over how much detail to give the players about the Jump drive.

I like the quote from a few months ago:

Players:  How does J-drive work?
GM:  It's pretty complicated, you'd need an Intelligence of F to understand it
Players:  Okay, Bob here has an Intelligence of F, he explains it to us.
GM:  Well, he understands it, but the rest of you can't understand his
explanation.

If you players really want to understand Traveller's Jump Drive, copy the
page from the CT/MT rulebook and hand it to them.  If they ask for more
detail, go out, buy Dr. Micho Kaku's book "Hyperspace" and Dr. Kip Thorne's
book "Black Holes and Time Warps," tell them to read these and then declare
"but all of this is as primitive as the concepts of aether, thunder gods and
particle physics."

Or during a game have them bump into a group of J-Space experts at a bar.  A
character will undoubtedly as 'how does Jump Drive/Jump Space work?'  One
expert will then spout off equations (7D task vs. Intelligence + Jump Drive
Physics to understand).  To act this out, grab ol' Albert's book on
relativity and find a page loaded with equations, and display it, looking
quite proud.  When the characters give him (you) a thoroughly blank look,
have the expert give them the ol' 'space is a rubber sheet' analogy.

Then we have the fun begin, another 'expert' jumps up and say's "That's
Bollocks![1]" and procedes to characters an long equation.  Again, the 7D
roll and another page of "Relativity[2]."  Again, the PC's will be caught
like deer in a bulk frieghter's landing strobes and the expert will resort
to a different, possibly more Monty Pythonish analogy.

Well, if you have ever met many opinionated experts, you can see what is
coming...
It's the standard Traveller BAR FIGHT!  With really SMART PEOPLE!

The PC's may join in or seek cover as the theorists get wiped up by the
experimenter crowd.  However in the back, still nursing a warm bheer,
ignoring his fellow 'experts' and scribbling on a napkin is Jhonahz Qatrii,
the Imperium's 3rd greatest Jump Space/Jump Drive expert.  Int G (smarter
than you can ever dream of being), Edu H, and the entire  Science Cluster 5
w/ Jump Physics 10.  This is the Richard Feynman of Jump Space.

For the trouble of a few moments of quiet, civil conversation (no
excitement, please) he'll give your players the scoop:

Nobody, but nobody knows exactly how Jump Drive works.  Every third 'expert'
has some different opinion on what the drive does, where is the place you go
through, why it works, when it was discovered by who.

He sighs sorrowfully and says "You see, we have all of these questions and
so little actual research in to the phenomena has been done.  Many years ago
I was involved in the H.J.D. project, or Hyper Jump Drive.  We were going
answer a lot of those questions, but the Moot/Senate/Emperor pulled all of
our funds before we got started.  Something about feeding starving K'Nrorks
on Huulkeooeor or some drivel."

The give them the best explaination of all:  The Jump Drive is a commercial
device, like a transistor or internal combustion engine and has been for
thousands of years.  To build a device capable of researching jumpspace
you'd have to spend many gigacredits to make a new discovery.

If your players protest, tell them it's really too bad the Superconducting
Super Collider was canceled in the mid-80's too, but that's the breaks.



[1] or what ever epithet serves you best
[2] - If you have the original in German (for most of you American GM's) so
much the better.

Jeffrey Cornish

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 08:50:13 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Room Number

At 09:40 PM 4/25/98 -0400, Bloo wrote:
>GDW GAMES wrote:
>
>> I also learned why the SF authors I approached
>> at SF-Cons had that "oh gawd, here we go again" look. I also began to
get >>a faint glimmer of what _real_ celebrity must be like.
>
>I never felt the urgent need to talk to my favorite authors, probably
cause >I was fairlly young when I went to Cons.  But that sword cuts both ways.
>After seeing one of my favorite authors, who shall remain nameless but is
>affiliated with a sci-fi alien race similar to the Aslan  <g>, acting like a
>spaz bouncing up and down on a bed in the Con suite, pipe in mouth all the 
>while, well, the demystification was too much.

But until you've been to one of Niven's Irish Coffee parties, you ain't
seen nothing.

I like seeing the authors on a more human scale.  Learning Tai Chi from
Steven Barnes, discussing fusion torch ships with Ben Bova and Dr. robert
Forward..  the only SF writer I ever saw who met the stereotype of the
steel-jawed hero was Robert Heinlein.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "I'm just like anybody else, I want |
|  to be a non-conformist too."       |
|                      -Lenny Bruce   |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:05:46 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Jump details

Nah, Damara doesn't have time. They only let her take a week at a
time, and I want to go back to africa--about 2 days worth of travel
each direction, so a week won't cut it.

Feel free to stay in ABQ on your way through--the house even looks
like a house now (we have furniture, and everything).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 10:41:20 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> >> Gen-Con asking "What does Jump space look like? I say it's purple,
> >> >> but the ref in the game we're running now says..."
> >>
> >> > I prefer that its colorless and featureless, however you do see the
> >> > anihilation of positrons and electrons on the jump bubble which make
> >> > the appearance of a swirling crackling mass akin to being inside a
> >> > nuclear reactor core.
> >>
> >> Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing visible.
> >
> > THIS is why I post here.  People know more than me...OK, how about this...
> > What happens when a gamma ray collides with a neutron?
>
> Short answer: they bounce off each other
>
> Long answer, the gamma ray may be absorbed and then re-emitted at a
> slightly different wavelength, so as to make up for momentum transfer.

Hmm... could you (theoretically) keep bouncing the gamma rays off neutrons until
the gamma rays have lost enough momentum/power that they become "relatively"
harmless and perhaps fall into the visible spectrum? Then could you collect
these neutrons and extract this momentum transfer?  Perhaps causing some sort of
chain reaction?

>
>
> > And while I'm asking subatomics, what exactly is a neutrino?
>
> A particle that is *damn* hard to detect. Of the "normal" particle
> properties, all it has are spin and momentum. A neutron is composed of
> an electron, a proton, and an anti-neutrino. An anti-neutron is
> composed of a positron, an anti-proton, and a neutrino. (and if you
> want to get complicated, the proton and anti-proton are composed of
> 3 quarks each).

I thought that a neutron was a proton that lost its positron, where a positron
is the charged "massless" partical that makes up a proton. That  leaves a massed
chargeless partical. Of course, I could be completely off base here.

>
>
> That's why fission and fusion reactions give off neutrinos or
> anti-neutrinos. The protons being converted into neutrons (or vice
> versa) release them.
>

What are the properties of neutrinos?

> >> And the core of a nuclear reactor doesn't really look all that special.
> >> Water cooled reactors may have a slight bluish glow in the water due to
> >> Cerenkov radiation as particles go thru the water faster than the speed
> >> of light in waater (but still below the speed of light in a vacuum).
> >
> > Hmm... what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a vacuum?
>
> That's why you need to be insulated from it. Increasing the value of c
> does *nasty* things to matter (in fact *most* physical constants need
> to be pretty close to what we measure them at, or we wouldn't be here
> to measure them).

Yea, I'm working on my theory with the jump bubble, only its a misnomer,
actually its an N-space bubble that you ride in. So while we're on changing the
nature of the universe in jump space, what would be the effects of no inertia on
life?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:27:16 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300 AD

Andy Slack wrote (following my query on 2300/Traveller):

>Yes, I've tried it. Character conversion and equipment just using my
>CT - 2300 AD rules backwards works fine for T4, and even brings
>people out with about the right number of skill levels.

I downloaded your rules and was planning on a backwards application of them
(or maybe just using T4 rules as is and playing with the skill list).

>For starships, I just said "Everything has to have jump-2 and
>manoeuvre-2." It's worked so far, but eventually I will probably
>want something more detailed.

I was planning on keeping 2300's starship rules (BTW was there ever any
errata produced for the Naval Architects Manual in StarCruiser, beyond the
material in a TD/MTJ) and world generation etc. It's just the
character/task/combat stuff I'd like to substitute..

>Scenarios run pretty much the same. Once you're used to a task
>system, one is pretty much like another.

That's what I thought...

>I was moving everything over to T4, but now it's not there any more...
>I await GURPS Traveller and/or T4.1 with interest.

T4.1 in my case, but I suspect I'll be getting some GT material too.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 11:11:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

Hello,
>>   I can see where "quasi-scientific gibberish" could be a problem,
>> although GDW had a fairly good load of real physics in there. The
>> real problem to me is the difference between technical handwaving
>> (anti-grav, Jump) and the intelligent, well-managed exploration of
>> the ramifications.
...
>Although I will shake my fist at what I see to be Traveller's dated view of
>science-fiction (and I don't want to get into a discussion of that again.
>We all have our own opinions on that, and I'm fine with it), I do _not_
>want to see Traveller get bogged down with pages and pages of largely
>irrelevant facts.

  Sorry, what I meant was much closer to what you're saying. Detail is not
inherently good or bad; I have nothing wrong with the somewhat minimalist
treatments of most tech in CT (said treatment presupposing that in the
Traveller universe the failure to use Jump drives as weapons systems
power supplies has a perfectly valid reason, such that effectively you
can't or won't do so, for example).

...
>Any time that something is sufficiently detailed and explained, there will
>always be some loophole or some angle that you've missed that your PCs
>_will_ exploit to their fullest advantage.

  The difference between Trav and Trek (a somewhar inflamatory comparison,
but there you go) isn't in the handwaving, it's in the follow-through. If
GDW or any other company really wanted to do a game where Trek transporters
and replicators were thoughtfully, and _fully_, applied, I might buy it.
It's the half-way measures of "well, you aren't supposed to _do_ _that_..."
that discourage me from wasting my money.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 12:08:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Changing the background

>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:09:42 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Changing the background
...
>>>All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
>>>was in charge.  It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings
>>>of society.
...
>>  There might be a point to what's being discussed, but describing
>>the Rebellion as unimportant seems both untenable and slightly
>>ridiculous.
>
>Which was not my point.  My point is that it is not a fundamental
>change to the background like changing the entire basis for
>movement and communications.  Sure the Rebellion changed a lot
>of things that were important to a lot of people.  But the
>basics of life are the same.  In fact, for PC's, the big change
>would seem to be mostly who the bad guys are.

  Actually, it seemed to be communicated as being your point.
With the clarification there appears to be a differentiation
between "fundamental change to the background" such that all
Traveller milieus are affected, and a change to the "fundamental
workings of society", which might be an event of relevance to
other (later) periods only for its historical effects. If so,
that seems quite reasonable.

  FWIW, the Rebellion sounds like it's being described as a
mere change in government, not the mass destruction it did
in fact entail.

>I should also be noted that the idea that history is unduly
>obsessed by wars and politics is not new to me.  I has been
>the contention by various people who have studied the issue
>in the past.

  Social (and economic) history are valuable, and the historical
tendency for military/political/diplomatic history to dominate
has been unfortunate IMO (although understandable).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 17:16:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

> ...
> >Any time that something is sufficiently detailed and explained, there will
> >always be some loophole or some angle that you've missed that your PCs
> >_will_ exploit to their fullest advantage.
> 
>   The difference between Trav and Trek (a somewhar inflamatory comparison,
> but there you go) isn't in the handwaving, it's in the follow-through. If
> GDW or any other company really wanted to do a game where Trek transporters
> and replicators were thoughtfully, and _fully_, applied, I might buy it.
> It's the half-way measures of "well, you aren't supposed to _do_ _that_..."
> that discourage me from wasting my money.

The current Treks are particularly *BAD* when it comes to dealing with
technology.  Seems like every time you turn around, they're bashin
something with Yet Another Undiscoverd Particle Beam.

<sigh>

I prefer the original series.  At least Scotty would occaisionally say
something like "Cap'n, ye canna change the laws of physics!"  And it's
*that* mentality I see in Traveller.

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:40:16 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?

My last reply to you was bounced back as well, Phil.

You might try me at :

j-man@iname.com
j-man@ix.netcom.com
jman@orionsys.com
jman037@geocities.com
jman037@freeyellow.com
jman037@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 14:56:30 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

> Thanx anyways... I've gotten several lines on Supp 5.  Am I to take it that
> High Lightnings *only* have 13 decks?  How thick are each of the decks?  Also,
> I thought most ships had their gravity perpendicular to the axis of thrust and
> not opposite...  That threw me off at first... Would there be any effects to
> that kind of design? Also for perpendicular designs?
> 

Yes, the deckplan arrangement in AHL through me off at first too.  It's
best to sit the ship up on it's tail, and starting from the top, begin
creating decks.  No, they have more then 13 decks, many areas are just
repeat decks.  There are a maximum of 84 decks, divided into 15
different types, as evidenced by the deckplans you have.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 22:26:24 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Yeah, i flopped the words perpendicular and opposite.  I had the right intent
but poor execution. : )  Not knowing of deck plans for any larger ships, I
dont' know if the AZHs are unusual in the orientation of their gravity.  The
small ships (excepting x boats, it seems) have "normal" deckplans.
Interesting.  Can't wait for my supp 5.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 01:24:13 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Pirates in T4?  Proposed Career Addition

Based on one of my player's stated desire to be a space pirate (and
understanding that some on this list have philosophical and/or game
mechanical objections to same), I've attempted to create a T4-style career
based on the CT career Pirate from Citizens of the Imperium.  (The story is
that her ship had a letter of marque and was raiding across the Zhodani
Border during the Fourth Frontier War...)

Most of it was a pretty straight shot to translate (i.e. if it used to say
6+, change to 8-).  The skill tables may need work.  Partly taken from
CT:Pirates, the rest was a look at Navy, Merchant, and Marine Characters,
plus a bit of "but pirates should get that skill..."

Please send me any comments you may have on this conversion and its
usability.  I'm planning on adopting the old house rule we had that pirates
could start their careers at age 14 (possibly with lessened homeworld
skills).

Thank you,
Michael Croft
- ----
Pirate
Individuals crewing interplanetary or interstellar vessels who make their
living by attacking, hijacking, or plundering commerce.

Pirate characters will acquire skills in a variety of roles, some related
to routine crew duties aboard ship, and others related to fighting, either
between ships or between individuals.

Routine Tasks: Intimidating Merchants, Fencing Stolen Cargoes, Exiting the
system in a hurry

	Enlistment :	7- ;DM +1 if Soc 7-; DM + 2 if End 9+
	Injury :	8- ;DM +2 if Int 8+
	Commission :	5- ;DM +1 if Str 10+
	Promotion :	6- ;DM +1 if Int 9+
	Continuation :	7-
- ----
1 Physical
	1	+1 Str
	2	+1 Dex
	3	+1 End
	4	Gunnery
	5	Gun Combat
	6	Brawling
2 Mental
	1	Language
	2	+1 Int
	3	Leadership
	4	Camouflage
	5	Perception
	6	Technical
3 Educational
	1	Bribery
	2	Law
	3	Environmental Combat
	4	Clandestine
	5	Gunnery
	6	Engineering
4 Social
	1	Carousing
	2	Gambling
	3	Streetwise
	4	-1 Soc
	5	Clandestine
	6	Charisma
5 Career
	1	Spacecraft
	2	Technical
	3	Gunnery
	4	Astrogation
	5	Environmental Combat
	6	Gun Combat
6 Background
	1	Exploration
	2	Vacc Suit
	3	First Aid
	4	Vacc Suit
	5	Jack of all Trades
	6	Melee Combat
- ----
Table of Ranks:
Non-Commisioned:
Rank E1	Apprentice Space Hand
Rank E2	Space Hand
Rank E3	Able Space Hand
Rank E4	Petty Officer
Rank E5	Chief Petty Officer
Rank E6	Warrant Officer
Rank E7	Boatswain's Mate
Commisioned:
Rank O1	Boatswain
Rank O2	Gunnery Mate
Rank O3	Quarter-Master
Rank O4	Second Mate
Rank O5	First Mate
Rank O6	Captain

Rank and Service Skills:
All 	Brawling-1
Rank O4	Pilot-1
- ----
Skill Eligibility:
	1 skill per year
	1 skill per term for commission
	1 skill per term for promotion

Mustering Out Tables:
Cash Table (credits)
1
2
3	1000
4	10000
5	50000
6	50000
7	50000

Benefits Table
1	Low Passage
2	+1 Int
3	Weapon
4
5	-1 Soc
6	Mid Passage
7	Corsair
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #436
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 437



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pirates in T4?  Proposed Career Addition
Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
RE: Wanted...
TML Searchable archives
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: Room Number
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Hull repairs during solar flares
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433
Here we go round... (Jump drive once more)
re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Changing the background

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:21:05 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates in T4?  Proposed Career Addition

[gratuitous and frequent snips abound]

Michael Croft wrote:

> Please send me any comments you may have on this conversion and its
> usability.  I'm planning on adopting the old house rule we had that pirates
> could start their careers at age 14 (possibly with lessened homeworld
> skills).

>         Enlistment :    7- ;DM +1 if Soc 7-; DM + 2 if End 9+

Man, you'd have to be really rough to get rejected by Pirates.

>         Injury :        8- ;DM +2 if Int 8+

A little on the safe side for pirates isn't it?  What with all the boarding and
running from the law.

>         Commission :    5- ;DM +1 if Str 10+
>         Promotion :     6- ;DM +1 if Int 9+

Questionable concepts for Pirates.  Most pirate captains were actually elected
by their crews.  A Vargr Charisma stat might be more appropriate.  Of course,
if you're using privateers with Letters of Marque, I would just copy the Naval
Ranks short of Flag Rank, completely.  Gunnery-Mate for an 02 sounds one step
up from Cabin Boy. ("These pipes are clean!").

> 2 Mental
>         5       Perception
> 3 Educational
>         2       Law

Not sure I see the reasoning for either of these.  Of course, they can't all be
perfectly suited.  ;-)You've got Gunnery 3 times.  A bit much I think.  Also
Vac Suit twice on the same table is overdoing it, IMHO.  And I should think
you'd want Trader in there since they've got to fence the stuff.

> Table of Ranks:

As much a I love ranks and all, I'm not sure how well they translate into
Pirate crews.BTW, I think no one after the First Mate should be called Mate,
and Bo'sun and Quartermaster are definitely non-commissioned ranks.

> Rank and Service Skills:
> All     Brawling-1

I should think that Streetwise or Spacecraft were more integral for all
pirates.Perhaps Trader.

> Mustering Out Tables:
> Cash Table (credits)
> 1
> 2

"Crime does not pay."

> 3       1000
> 4       10000
> 5       50000
> 6       50000
> 7       50000

I think you can make this much or more in the Navy.

> Benefits Table
> 5       -1 Soc

Hardly a benefit, I should think.

IIRC, someone had a T4 pirate career up somewhere. You might want to compare
with.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:22:28 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

Location:  Christchurch, New Zealand
Founding date: May 1997
Group size: 6-8 depending on who can make it on the day.
Number of referees: 1
Health:  Just restarting after a 3 month break.
Predominant rules system: TNE, Bughunters
Campaign location:  Near stars (from 2300 AD)
Campaign time:  2101 AD
E-mail contact:  Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz

Cheers,
            Anson.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 05:35:46 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: RE: Wanted...

Hi,

I know this is off topic, but I buy stuff at Titan Games Website --
http://www.titan-games.com
From the e-mail messages. I know many people are looking for older stuff so
I copied what Titan games showed on their shelves and pasted it below.  I am
not associated in any way with Titan Games except as an occasional customer.
If I broke a mailing list rule by posting this, I am sorry.

Vale,
David

The Traveller Book (hardbound) (201) [$22, F]
The Traveller Adventure (202) [$20, NM]
Alien Module 1 - Aslan (254) [$26, NM], [$24, VF], [$20, G], [$18, Fa]
Alien Module 2 - K'kree (255) (never stapled)[$40, NM]
Alien Module 6 - Solomani (260) [$28, G]
Alien Module 8 - Darrians (264) [$35, NM], [$32, VF]
Traveller Deluxe Boxed Set (300) (tabs on some booklet pages)[$21, Box
G-Contents F]
Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$15, Box F-Contents VF], [$13, Box
G-Contents F]
Traveller Boxed Set (3rd printing, picture on back, digest sized) (301)
[$50, Boxed-N]
Book 0 - An Introduction to Traveller (322) [$6, NM], [$5.5, VF]
Book 1 - Characters & Combat [$7.5, NM], [$5.5, F], [$4.5, G]
Book 2 - Starships [$6.5, VF], [$5.5, F], [$4.5, G]
Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures [$7.5, NM], [$6.5, VF], [$5.5, F]
Book 4 - Mercenary (304) [$13, VF], [$12, F]
Book 5 - High Guard (Rev. Ed) (308) [$14, VF], [$12.5, F]
Book 6 - Scouts (337) [$15, M]
Suppl. 1 - 1001 Characters (303) [$8, VF], (GW UK version)[$8, VF], [$7, F]
Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$12, NM], [$7, VF], [$4, Fa]
Suppl. 4 - Citizens of the Imperium (310) [$8, VF]
Suppl. 6 - 76 Patrons (315) [$9.5, NM], [$7.5, F]
Suppl. 7 - Traders & Gunboats (318) [$11, F], [$9.5, G]
Suppl. 8 - Library Data (A-M) (320) [$11.5, NM], [$10, VF], (tape on spine)[$9.5, VF]
Suppl. 9 - Fighting Ships (324) [$11, F]
Adv. 1 - The Kinunir (306) [$9, F], [$8, G]
Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma (311) [$12.5, M], [$10, F]
Adv. 7 - Broadsword (326) [$20, M], [$14, G]
Adv. 9 - Nomads of the World-Ocean (333) [$15, NM]
Adv. 10 - Safari Ship (338) [$13, M], [$11, VF]
Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (339) [$13, M], [$12, NM]
Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$13, M], [$12.5, NM], [$12, VF]
Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face (313) [$12, VF]
Double Adv. 3 - Death Station/The Argon Gambit (321) [$15, M], [$14, NM]
Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM]
Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331) [$13, M], [$12,
NM], (tape on spine)[$11.5, NM], [$11, VF]
Asteroid (digest sized) (412) (slightly punched, missing one counter)[$20,
Box NM-Contents M]
Traveller: 2300
Colonial Atlas (1013) [$10, NM]
Rotten to the Core (1017) [$8, NM]
Energy Curve (1031) [$8, M], [$7.5, NM]
Kafer Dawn (1032) [$7.5, NM], [$7, VF], (insert loose)[$6, F]
Ground Vehicle Guide (1036) [$8.5, NM]
Ranger (1038) [$7.5, NM], [$6, F], [$5, G]
Star Cruiser (1050) [$18, Boxed-N]
Traveller: The New Era
Smash & Grab (305) [$10, NM], [$9, VF]
Players' Forms (306) [$8.5, NM], [$8, VF]
Referee's Screen (307) [$10, NM], [$9, VF], [$8, F]
Path of Tears, Star Viking Sourcebook (309) [$14, VF]
Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide (310) [$14, VF]
Star Vikings, Personalities of the Reformation Coalition (315) [$15, NM],
[$14, VF]
Aliens of the Rim, Hivers and Ithklur (318) [$15, NM]

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:47:07 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: TML Searchable archives

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

I'm considering putting up a full-text searchable archive of the TML. 
Some questions:-

1) Is this legal? Would I be infringing a copyright held by MPGN 
(where I have downloaded the archives from?)

2) Format. I'm proposing to convert all the files to HTML for easy 
loading by browsers. Obviously I don't want to have to convert all 
the many thousands of posts to HTML by hand, so I'm automating the 
process (SED and AWK are wonderful tools, really!) However, just how 
much 'conversion' does everybody want to see? Shall I just put every 
post up as a line-for-line copy of the extract from the digest, or 
should I try to convert the posts to take advantage of HTML 
formatting? If I do, how should I handle '>>' quoted material?

Awaiting some ideas

Andy

- - -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- - -----------------------------------------
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNUQp7PtKvbPYMVxkEQLE/gCgt3PqQdYg2F46S+pCouhaBm6/tT8An251
WLoyh9UygwhL04hwRjGFGdpP
=S8UL
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:16:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>>> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Annihilating positron/electron pairs radiate gamma rays. Nothing 
>>>> visible.
>>>
>>> THIS is why I post here.  People know more than me...OK, how about 
>>> this...
>>> What happens when a gamma ray collides with a neutron?
>>
>> Short answer: they bounce off each other
>>
>> Long answer, the gamma ray may be absorbed and then re-emitted at a
>> slightly different wavelength, so as to make up for momentum transfer.
>
> Hmm... could you (theoretically) keep bouncing the gamma rays off
> neutrons until the gamma rays have lost enough momentum/power that
> they become "relatively" harmless and perhaps fall into the visible
> spectrum? Then could you collect these neutrons and extract this
> momentum transfer?  Perhaps causing some sort of chain reaction?

Not likely. Just having the gamma ray *hit* a neutron is doing pretty
good. Getting it to bounce off at a specific angle isn't gonna happen.
The uncertainty principle will see to that. 

If you have something with lots of nuclei packed tightly, it'll turn
gamma rays to heat (except for the ones that make it through). 

>> > And while I'm asking subatomics, what exactly is a neutrino?
>>
>> A particle that is *damn* hard to detect. Of the "normal" particle
>> properties, all it has are spin and momentum. A neutron is composed of
>> an electron, a proton, and an anti-neutrino. An anti-neutron is
>> composed of a positron, an anti-proton, and a neutrino. (and if you
>> want to get complicated, the proton and anti-proton are composed of
>> 3 quarks each).
>
> I thought that a neutron was a proton that lost its positron, where a
> positron is the charged "massless" partical that makes up a proton.
> That  leaves a massed chargeless partical. Of course, I could be
> completely off base here.

No. A positron is an anti-electron. Same mass, opposite charge, spin
and lepton number. Both electrons and positrons are "fundamental"
particles. That is, other than reacting with their anti-particles,
there's no way to get rid of them. They are "leptons".

A proton is a baryon (composed of three quarks, mesons are composed of
pairs of quarks). A neutron consists of an electron, a proton, and an
anti-neutrino. Both are *quite* massive (around 1830 times the mass of
an electron).

Neutrinos and photons are leptons. They both have a rest mass of zero.
They have different spins. As I recall, a photon has a spin of 0, and a
neutrino has a spin of 1/2. Neither has any charge.

You can get a proton to turn into a neutron by giving the proton enough
energy to *create* both an electron/positron pair and a
neutrino/anti-neutrino pair. The electron and the anti-neutrino bind
with the proton forming a neutron, while the positron and neutrino are
emitted. 

>> That's why fission and fusion reactions give off neutrinos or
>> anti-neutrinos. The protons being converted into neutrons (or vice
>> versa) release them.
>
> What are the properties of neutrinos?

Zero rest mass, spin of +/- 1/2, variable momentum depending on energy.

>>>> And the core of a nuclear reactor doesn't really look all that special.
>>>> Water cooled reactors may have a slight bluish glow in the water due to
>>>> Cerenkov radiation as particles go thru the water faster than the speed
>>>> of light in waater (but still below the speed of light in a vacuum).
>>>
>>> Hmm... what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a
>>> vacuum?

>> That's why you need to be insulated from it. Increasing the value of c
>> does *nasty* things to matter (in fact *most* physical constants need
>> to be pretty close to what we measure them at, or we wouldn't be here
>> to measure them).
>
> Yea, I'm working on my theory with the jump bubble, only its a
> misnomer, actually its an N-space bubble that you ride in. So while
> we're on changing the nature of the universe in jump space, what
> would be the effects of no inertia on life?

If I could answer that I'd have a Nobel prize. The real problem is that
except for a few fringe ideas, mass (aka inertia) seems to be a
fundamental property of matter. 

Not that all known "massless" (ie rest mass of zero) particles travel
at c. And given the Lorentz/Fitzgerald equations, it's pretty unlikely
that they *can* travel at any other speed. So that could get ugly.

But just consider that the mass of atoms plays a big part in chemical
reactions. Mess those up even a tiny bit, and you die...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:46:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Room Number

In mail you write:

> I like seeing the authors on a more human scale.  Learning Tai Chi from
> Steven Barnes, discussing fusion torch ships with Ben Bova and Dr. robert
> Forward..  the only SF writer I ever saw who met the stereotype of the
> steel-jawed hero was Robert Heinlein.

I'm told that Virginia Heinlein is the model for most of his female
heroines. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:48:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

In mail you write:

>   The difference between Trav and Trek (a somewhar inflamatory comparison,
> but there you go) isn't in the handwaving, it's in the follow-through. If
> GDW or any other company really wanted to do a game where Trek transporters
> and replicators were thoughtfully, and _fully_, applied, I might buy it.
> It's the half-way measures of "well, you aren't supposed to _do_ _that_..."
> that discourage me from wasting my money.

Can you imagine what the discovery of the biological effects of
kironide[1] would do to a society? In Traveller, it'd be either all over
the place (making everybody who could afford it a major league psi) or
it'd be suppressed with a *huge* black market.

In Trek they used it to beat the bad guys and promptly *forgot* about it.

[1] the "mcguffin" in the old Trek episode "Plato's Stepchildren".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:52:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

In mail you write:

> Yeah, i flopped the words perpendicular and opposite.  I had the right intent
> but poor execution. : )  Not knowing of deck plans for any larger ships, I
> dont' know if the AZHs are unusual in the orientation of their gravity.  The
> small ships (excepting x boats, it seems) have "normal" deckplans.
> Interesting.  Can't wait for my supp 5.  

Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.

Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 00:56:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hull repairs during solar flares

In mail you write:

> Sat, 25 Apr 1998 03:37:08 PST shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) 
> wrote:
>
>>I'm willing to accept that a "superdense" hull provides enough
>>shielding if there's a solar flare, but that could *really* cramp your
>>style if there's a flare going on and you *have* to do repairs on the
>>outside of the hull. 
>>
>>In other words, who is going to pick a slow and nasty way of committing
>>suicide so the ship can get the hell out of there?
>
> When doing repairs on the outside under such conditions, just stay in the 
> shadow of the hull. If the hull is rotating, it might prolong the time it 
> takes to make repairs, but most of the time, this simple trick will solve 
> the problem.

If the hull is rotating at any rate worth mentioning, you are going to
get fried because it won't take that long to get you on the wrong side.
Also, "shadow" shielding is a problem because the solar magnetic field
extends *way* out, and can warp the paths of the particles
significantly. So you may not be safe on the dark side of the ship, and
even if you are, the "safe" direction won't stay the same. 

That's why shielding designs tend to *surround* the safe area with
shielding rather than just use the shadow of a partial shield. 

Also, how many locks does the ship have? It's going to take some
*careful* co-ordination if there isn't a lock on the same side of the
hull as the damage. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:19:39 -1000
From: Craig Barnett <craig_barnett@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

Having just returned from a LONG absence from Traveller, I'm hoping
somebody can update me on whats been happening with Trav and the list
over the last 2-2.5 years

When I had to quit back then, GDW had just gone bellyup along with TNE
and all future supplements...Did anything get resolved plotwise? ie, the
black curtain, the empress wave, etc?

I also see there is now yet ANOTHER traveller, t4. What is this? Does it
use Trav or TNE rules, and how successfull has it been?

I would also appreciate somebody pointing me to any archives that may
contain list bundles for the last couple of years, so I can play
catchup.

I know, that's a lot of requests and questions, but I'm burbning with
curiosity!

- --
Craig Barnett   <craig_barnett@iname.com>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:59:20 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Here we go round... (Jump drive once more)

David P. Summers writes:

>Thu, 23 Apr 1998 21:45:44 -0400, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>>>[Me:]
>>>>The big problem with
>>>>the "all-the-fuel-is-burned-up" model is that the energy density in the
>>>>capacitors would have to be so unbelievably high.
> 
>>>Note: this is only if you have to store all the energy burned in
>>>the capacitors and is mitigated by the efficiency that the fuel
>>>is burned at....
> 
>>If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?
> 
>Nothing say it doesn't just go right into jumping....

Nothing except the rules which state that you don't jump right away (By CT
rules you delay the jump at least long enough to get rid of any drop tanks
you may have; by MT rules you can delay the jump several hours).
 
>>If the
>>energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump space for the week?
> 
>Physics.  It takes energy to get you into orbit, but you can stay
>there indefinately....

Agreed. That's just the way the physics of jumpspace works.
 
>>If you
>>don't burn the fuel the most efficiently possible for the tech level, then
>>you could use less fuel and just burn it efficiently.
>
>Who says you aren't buring it the most efficient way possible?
>Who says a high throughput reactor will be as efficient as a
>low throughput.

Well, if you could explain the other problems away, I'd be inclined to
swallow the concept of a special kind of fusion reactor that is introduced
at TL 9 and dosen't improve one little bit over the next 7 TLs despite the
fact that it's cousins improve all the time, but I tell you, it smacks
mightily of a contrieved, after-the-fact handwave...

And Leonard Erickson writes:

>>If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?
> 
>It's stored in the jump field. Just like pumping energy into an
>induction coil, except for the magnetic field, the power seems to be
>going "nowhere". And if you suddenly *stop* dumping energy into the
>field, you'll get one hell of a power spike back *out*.

You're not talking about the jump field that builds up around the ship and
maintain a small bubble of real space around it while it is in jumpspace,
are you? Because that one is formed when the capacitors discharge and
propel the ship into jumpspace. Which takes place up to minutes or even
hours after the jump fuel has been completely used up.

>>If the energy is immediately expended, what keeps you in jump
>>space for the week?
> 
>Well, carrying on with the above analogy, When the field reaches a
>certain "strength" you pop into jumpspace. 

Hmm... you may be onto something here. How about this: The jump operates in
two stages: First you use up a huge amount of energy, derived from burning
up oodles of jump fuel in a special, very fast fusion reactor (which is, when
invented at TL 9, already at its peak efficiency and cannot be improved upon).
This builds up the strength of the jump field _almost_ to the threshold and
must, for some reason, be done very fast (in order to overcome some sort of
resistance, perhaps?). If you stop there, nothing more happens (except that
the field presumably dissipates fairly rapidly). Secondly you "fine-tune" the
last burst of energy to carry you over the threshhold in a carefully
controlled way. This second energy burst determines your jumpspace vector
and is what you use the capacitors for. 

>Either way, this works *very* well with the bit about having to build
>power in a short period and not being able to stop in the middle. The
>stresses in the coils/grid/whatever from building up to the required
>entry field strength can only be maintained for so long (like the
>tendency of a strong magnetic field to make the coil explode). Once you
>get into jump, the srtresses are gone (either because the field is
>gone, or because j-space itself compensates).

Do remember that according to _Starship Operator's Manual_ you can, indeed,
stop in the middle and pause for up to several hours.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:21:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.

Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Another indication, IMO, of the reliability of ship's gravity and g-comp
systems - ships have been designed for centuries with no thought to what
would happen if these systems failed. Kind of like the way so few 
automobiles carry tool kits any more.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:06:01 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

David P. Summers writes:

>Fri, 24 Apr 1998 15:28:35 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
><rancke@diku.dk>
>>>This gets to have an arbitrary feel.  I think it would be better to just
>>>forget [drop tanks] ever existed...
>> 
>>This has an arbitrary feel. I think it would be best just to accept them
>>as part of the Traveller background as they have always been.
> 
>Well, this is odd from someone who has show such a recence to just accept
						    ^^^^^^^
reluctance ?

>canon as it is.

Well, if you really need my attitude explained one more time then here you
are: IMO canon should be adhered to so long as it makes sense. If it does
not make sense, making up some decent explanation that makes it make sense
is preferrable to just changing it. And, finally, if no decent explanation
springs to mind, changing it is better than to keep the nonsensical bit.

>Additionally, you are missing the point. I'm talking about when a
>background feel hokey because explanations are piled up to force something
>to fit and arbitrary preconception rather than allowing them the follow
>from a few basic premises.

No, I got the point all right. What you don't seem to grasp is that the
point where the few basic premises should have been established was when
the rules were first made up. We're beyond that point now and have been
for 20 years. Furthermore, because you can't expect a game designer to use
several lifetimes exploring all the raminfications of his rules before
publishing, and because you can't expect a game designer to make it all up
before the first book is published, it is silly not to expect to see some
discrepancies arise as more and more material is written. Those who control
the developement should try to minimize such, of course, but it is
unreasonable to expect them to be 100% successful. Therefore, retroactive
adjustments and rationalizations are something we have to live with. 

>For me, when it comes down to either simply ignoring a poorly thought out
>addition that never go a lot of attention, or keeping at and then piling
>up arbitrary rules for why it shouldn't change the entire face of space
>travel, I go for the former.

I might agree with you if it were a matter of 'piling up arbitrary rules
for why it shouldn't change the entire face of space travel', but it isn't.
The one thing it affects is the economics of freight and passenger traffic
between high-volume star systems, and guess what: that is _already_ broken.
Further it makes not the tiniest particle of difference to the background as
it has been developed today, because very little has been written about long-
distance passenger traffic between high-volume star systems. I grant you
that it makes a bit of a difference to the future developement of the post-CT
milieux, but not a very big one. Future PCs may be able to get a ticket on a
jump-6 liner for Cr10,000 instead of for Cr35,000, but so what? Certainly the
economy of a tramp spaceship is practically unaffected by the existence or
absence of drop tanks. 
 
>>All very true, but this is true anyway. The Traveller background is full
>>of bits and pieces that don't seem to fit.
> 
>Yeah, nothings perfect. OTOH, the fewer the better.  And this is one
>that dropping would have almost no effect on the history.

And why? Because drop tanks have had little effect on history. And why?
Because they haven't been around for most of Traveller history. So it
is equally true that retaining them won't affect the history.
 
>>You advocate erasing drop tanks from the game universe retroactively. This
>>is potentially just as disrupting to other people's backgrounds as keeping
>>them.
> 
>No, I advocate simply ignoring them.  People that have them already can
>keep using them, but since they won't be mentioned again, new people
>won't be encouraged to introduce the problems they represent.

Again, I might be more inclined to agree with you if I was able to see any
of those big problems.

>>Or you could set your campaign in an area where drop tanks either have not
>>yet had time to become an intregral part of the commercial network or has
>>been unable to function due to unsettled conditions.
> 
>Fine, until you want to introduce elements from more advanced areas,
>or you want to advance the timeline, or players decide they are neat
>enough to want to go get them, or a number of ways this can break down.
>And even if it doesn't, when you explain the background you then have
>either refuse to explore how space travel occurs in more advanced areas
>of the Imperium, or you have go throught all the ramifications anyway.

I see that you ignore the possibility of playing in an era where they
haven't been invented yet. As for these terrible ramifications, they
concern areas of the background about which very little has been published
yet. So what is the problem? If you wan't to deal with those ramifications
you either have to explore them yourself anyway, or wait until someone
else explores them for you. In either case the presense or absence of drop
tanks make no difference to your workload.
 
>>>More importantly for some, is it where you want to go with your campaign?
>>>Do you want spend so much of your energies exploring the ramifications of
>>>a fundamental techology changes?
>>
>>No, I'd prefer someone else doing it for me.
> 
>Well, if a game company wanted to do keep drop tanks and work out
>all the ramification, but through not needing jump fuel on ships, 
>it could work.  However, you would essentially have a new setting in
>which the entire basis for the interactions of worlds is different.
>It then comes down to which background people prefer.  

Just as the Rebellion presented a new setting in which the entire basis for
the interactions of worlds were different (You put that rather neatly).
 
>>How would it change the feel?
> 
>The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a big part
>of the background.

Yes? You still need big expensive ships to do high jumps with drop tanks.

>The idea there will not be things like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where
>ships arrive and depart from is another big change.

Are you talking about fuel stations at the 100 diameter limit? Because if
you are, I must point out to you that the economics of jump travel even
without drop tanks makes it profitable for ships to jump back and forth
between jump limits and leave it to intra-system shuttles to convey the
freight and passengers between surface and jump limit.

>That is just off the top of my head.

Try digging a little deeper.
 
>>>The Rebellion was not as fundamental change.
>> 
>>ROTFL!
> 
>Laugh all you want.  This is part of self deceiving conceit of politics,
>that their actions are the most important part of how society develops.
>It can be argued that in the long run, it mostly just changes who gets
>written down in the history books.

Yes, but if I'm running a CT campaign in 1116 then it's the short term
changes that interest me. Suddenly half my PCs should by rights be called
under arms again. Suddenly I can no longer send my characters on a trip
to Capital. Suddenly my NPC nobles have a whole new set of imperatives
driving them. Suddenly travel across borders become subject to new
procedures. And that's assuming I'm running a campaign in Spinward Marches.
If I were running a campaign in Solomani Rim I'd _really_ have some
fundamental changes in the way worlds interacted!

>All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
>was in charge.

Excuse me? Isn't that a pretty extensive change?

>It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings of society.

Neither do drop tanks. so they make long-distance travel cheaper. So what?
How many adventures can you think of where that made any difference at all?
 
>>>And the you also have issue about just using the jump stations to jump in
>>>the fuel you need to get back.
> 
>>That one I didn't get. What do you mean?
> 
>You need fuel to get back?  You room for one person and a jump field
>generator on a tanks and use the jump station to provide the fuel
>to send it to them.

I'm sorry, I can't parse that sentence.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #437
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 438



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Active Traveller Campaigns
re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
RE:  Traveller Geek Codes
Re: Bootstrap (was: Uplift)
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #437
3 Black Book Titles + Basic Categories
re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Ranks
Re: Traveller Geek Codes
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
re: Traveller Geek Codes
RE: Changing the background of Traveller
Re: Ranks
Re: TML Searchable archives
Re: particle physics
Grav vehicles
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433
Re: Grav vehicles
Re: particle physics
sensor signatures for natural objects (somewhat long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:28:03 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaigns

Senor Robert Eaglestone:

Here is my information on a struggling CT Campaign:

Location:  Albuquerque, New Mexico 
Founding date:    A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away  (1979)
Group size:  Varied from one to twelve at given times
Number of referees:  Eric T. Holmes
Health:	Very ill, trying to pump it upJim, if we dont do something now,
hell die!
Predominant rules system:  Classic with a little Mega; open to modification
Campaign location: Spinward Marches
Campaign time:    1098 - Fifth Frontier War - 1116
E-mail contact:  holmberg@thuntek.net
Phone:  505-896-8061

CODE:  tc++ tm to ru ge(-) 3i(-) jt(+) a(+) st ls(+) kk(-) hi- as+ va+
       dr+ mr+ so zh- da+ sy sw mh

Just so you know I added:  mr = minor races    mh = minor human races

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:25:53 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

>Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
>"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
>"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.
>
>Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
>main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
>corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Another indication, IMO, of the reliability of ship's gravity and g-comp
>systems - ships have been designed for centuries with no thought to what
>would happen if these systems failed. Kind of like the way so few
>automobiles carry tool kits any more.
>
>
>Walt Smith

Hasn't this subject been added to the FAQ yet along with near-c rocks and
Technologically Elevated Dictators as 'done to death'?

The primary reason for sticking with decks perpendicular to the axis of
thrust is simple; all my deckplans are already drawn that way...you think I
wanna draw all *new* deckplans?!?

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:50:24 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: RE:  Traveller Geek Codes

I would like to thank everyone for their assistance in helping me find the
Traveller Geek Codes.

Might I suggest a couple of additional codes:

mr:  for minor alien races

mr++  I use all the minor alien races freely
mr+   I use most of the minor alien races
mr    I use some minor alien races
mr-   I use selected minor alien races as needed
mr--  I don't use any minor alien races at all


mh:  for minor human races

as above

- ---

Also, while I am writing, Marc Miller has told me that he no longer has
_Alien Module 4: Zhodani_ in stock.  Would there be a kind soul available
who would be willing to make a crisp and clear photo copy of said module.  I
am willing to re-imberse through trade of photo copies.  I have JTAS #2 -
24, all GDW Scenarios, including doubles, most CT Supplements, Striker 1,
Invasion Earth, Fifth Frontier War, Azhanti High Lightning, and several
other published
works including the Judges Guild sectors.

Contact me off TML at:  holmberg@thuntek.net


Eric

TGC:  tc++ tm to ru ge(-) 3i(-) jt(+) a(+) st ls(+) pi+ kk(-) hi- as+ va+
dr+ mr+ so zh- da+ sy sw mh  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:44:07 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Bootstrap (was: Uplift)

>>BTW, one theory is that alternating current fields increase intelligence.
>>Track the places where AC wiring is installed and you can see its
>>effects. So
>>I would try to introduce electricity as early as possible, and then
>>promote
>>electrification.
>>
>>Marc
>
>Haven't seen that research. Can you provide a reference?

I'm shure he is joking. (right Marc?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:39:15 -0400
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #437

It is by Alan Shock. I found it at:
	
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4224/house/pirate_t4.html
Greg Svenson

> Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:21:05 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> Subject: Re: Pirates in T4?  Proposed Career Addition
> 
> [gratuitous and frequent snips abound]
> 
> IIRC, someone had a T4 pirate career up somewhere. You might want to
> compare
> with.
> 
> Bloo
> 

------------------------------

Date: 27 Apr 1998 10:38 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: 3 Black Book Titles + Basic Categories

Howdy all,

I want to reorganize the Traveller Alexandria Project,
with categories based on the titles of the 3 basic LBBs
plus section headings in the rulebooks.  I am thinking
of something like this:

Character
Combat
Equipment
Ship
Vehicle
World
Psionics
Adventure
Program

Can anyone add categories from the rulebooks or/book 
titles?  I want this to be generic, so I won't add 
elements of adventure titles (e.g. Squadron).

Thanks,
Rob
eaglesto@nortel.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:56:33 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

>Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
>"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
>"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.
>
>Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
>main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
>corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Another indication, IMO, of the reliability of ship's gravity and g-comp
>systems - ships have been designed for centuries with no thought to what
>would happen if these systems failed. Kind of like the way so few
>automobiles carry tool kits any more.
>
>
>Walt Smith


Of course, when your car breaks down you rarely have to worry about falling
20 (or 200) meters! :-)

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:57:17 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ranks

Jeff Zeitlin writes:

>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
>and John J. Pershing (1976). 

OB Traveller tie-in: If you were writing up General Marshall or General
Pershing, what numbers would you assign to those two ranks?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:02:09 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Geek Codes

Eric Holmes wrote:

> I would like to thank everyone for their assistance in helping me find the
> Traveller Geek Codes.
>
> Might I suggest a couple of additional codes:
>
> mr:  for minor alien races
>
> mr++  I use all the minor alien races freely
> mr+   I use most of the minor alien races
> mr    I use some minor alien races
> mr-   I use selected minor alien races as needed
> mr--  I don't use any minor alien races at all

While we're at it...
dt: for drop tanks

dt++ high capacity energy storage from jump drives is implemented for weaponry
dt+ ships can use fuel from tankers to jump
dt drop tanks can burn their fuel and release before entering jump space
dt- drop tanks are quick release external demountable tanks (no quick burn)
dt-- drop tanks don't exist

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:10:28 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> >Leonard Erikson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
> >"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
> >"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.
> >
> >Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
> >main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
> >corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >Another indication, IMO, of the reliability of ship's gravity and g-comp
> >systems - ships have been designed for centuries with no thought to what
> >would happen if these systems failed. Kind of like the way so few
> >automobiles carry tool kits any more.
> >
> >
> >Walt Smith
>
> Hasn't this subject been added to the FAQ yet along with near-c rocks and
> Technologically Elevated Dictators as 'done to death'?
>
> The primary reason for sticking with decks perpendicular to the axis of
> thrust is simple; all my deckplans are already drawn that way...you think I
> wanna draw all *new* deckplans?!?

Perpendicular to the axis is convenient when you land. If its a spacebound
ship, its more efficient to run inline. Thus tramp freighter (PC ships) and
airframes are best designed with a gravity well in mind, while mega freighters,
capitol ships, x-boats and other spacebound ships should be designed around the
primary gravitational force, their thrusters.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:22:54 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Traveller Geek Codes

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
While we're at it...
dt: for drop tanks

dt++ high capacity energy storage from jump drives is implemented for weaponry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Sir, we seem to have some difficulties with our new jump-drive capacitor
based planetbuster. Every time we power it up to ignition point, it
disappears for a week....  ;)



Walt Smith
dt+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:45:59 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: RE: Changing the background of Traveller

Fellow Travellers:

I was catching up on the posts from the past weekend and Hans Rancke-Madsen
and several other members have been carrying on a discussion concerning drop
tanks and the ability to change the back ground of the Traveller game.  

Well, IMTU, I expect the PCs to develop their Traveller Universe background
by solving problems.  IIRC, drop tanks came about as a cost saving measure
during a CT session.  The PCs IMTU took this one step further and developed
a "Fuel Bladder" system to be installed in their cargo hold.  When Jump
capacitors came about, they started saving up credits to get a big enough
capacitor to save Jump 1 energy for emergency jumps.  Then they worked on
how much jump distance they could glean out of a stripped ship. Then...you
see where I'm going.

This development train of thought worked out the need for gravitational
compensators for high g manuvers...my wife was a med tech in the USAF and
remembered some research in the g-sled studies concerning the need for suits
and other compensatory measures..."So why not an on-board "mechanical"
gravitational system?"...and she is not a gear-head.

So let's take some guidance from the heretics on the list and say,
"Remember, IMTU..."

Eric

"Maybe I'm a closet Heretic at best."

IMTU:  tc++ tm to ru ge(-) 3i(-) jt(+) a(+) st ls(+) pi+ ps (-) kk(-) hi-
as+ va+ dr+ mr+ so zh- da+ sy sw mh

Another TGC:  ps for psionics ps++  Everyone has an ability to be psionic
ps  Some individuals have psionic abilities
ps--  Not no, but hell no to psionic abilities.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:44:04 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Ranks

At 04:57 PM 4/27/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>
>>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
>>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
>>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
>>and John J. Pershing (1976). 
>
>OB Traveller tie-in: If you were writing up General Marshall or General
>Pershing, what numbers would you assign to those two ranks?

They're O-10's placed in a position of command.  If we're both Generals,
but I'm in command of III Corps, and you're in command of 7th Army, you are
incharge no matter what is on our collars.

In the US Army, there are three seperate rank positions held a the pay
grade E-9: Sargeant-Major, Command Sargeent-Major, and Sargeant-Major of
the Army.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:01:48 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: TML Searchable archives

>I'm considering putting up a full-text searchable archive of the TML. 
>Some questions:-

I would personally prefer not to see something like this; it means that
(for example) the first thing anyone finds if they do a web search on
"Bruce Macintosh" is a zillion TML entries - which might be unfortunate
if a potential employer or grant reviewer is trying to find the web site
with my actual astronomical work.

To the extent that I hold the copyright on my articles (which I do) I'd
prefer them not to be on the web except for specific articles that I've
given permission for.

I suppose a searchable archive set up so that automatic web engines only
find the top layer might be OK.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:08:56 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: particle physics

Leonard writes
>A proton is a baryon (composed of three quarks, mesons are composed of
>pairs of quarks). A neutron consists of an electron, a proton, and an
>anti-neutrino. Both are *quite* massive (around 1830 times the mass of
>an electron).

This is somewhat misleading. It's not like inside a neutron there is an
electron and a anti-neutrino bouncing around; a neutron is also just composed
of three quarks. A neutron is an up quark (charge +2/3) and two down 
quarks (charge -1/3.) When a neutron decays, one of the down quarks changes
into an up quark; in the process it emits a electron. This is legal since
electrons (like all leptons) can be created out of nothing, as long as
charge+mass+momentum all balence - which they do, if a neutrino is created
at the same time going in the opposite direction. (It's technically an
anti neutrino for mildly complicated reasons.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 11:32:45 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Grav vehicles

Question, sirs:

IYTUs, what are the flight ceilings of grav vehicles. Are all grav-powered
vehicles capable of near orbital altitudes? IIRC, this is insinuated if not
outright stated in several Traveller sources. When I look at DGP's 101
Vehicles, there are several designs that are explicitly stated to be
capable of near orbital (and even interplanetary) journeys: examples
include the Strike-it-Rich prospector's bubble, the Planet-Hopper grav
sedan, the Tachcel hypergrav transport and the Hermes grav landing shuttle.

However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?

So I ask -- is there a hard-and-fast ruling to this, or is it up to referee
discretion? I canna' remember what FF&S says!

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:46:43 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

At 12:48 AM 4/27/98 PST, you wrote:

>Can you imagine what the discovery of the biological effects of
>kironide[1] would do to a society? In Traveller, it'd be either all over
>the place (making everybody who could afford it a major league psi) or
>it'd be suppressed with a *huge* black market.
>
>In Trek they used it to beat the bad guys and promptly *forgot* about it.
That's nothing.  The TNG episode where Picard, Ro, and Chief Bartender
Whoopi were returned to childhood by a transporter accident.  I spent most
of the hour screaming "you've just invented practical immortality!!"  
- --


Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 08:54:22 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

At 09:19 PM 4/27/98 -1000, you wrote:
>Having just returned from a LONG absence from Traveller, I'm hoping
>somebody can update me on whats been happening with Trav and the list
>over the last 2-2.5 years

welcome back to the fold.

>When I had to quit back then, GDW had just gone bellyup along with TNE
>and all future supplements...Did anything get resolved plotwise? ie, the
>black curtain, the empress wave, etc?

We've heard bits and pieces of what various authors had planned.. but
nothing concrete IIRC.

>I also see there is now yet ANOTHER traveller, t4. What is this? Does it
>use Trav or TNE rules, and how successfull has it been?

Ah.  T4, or Marc Miller's Traveller was an attempt to redo Classic in the
light of twenty years experience.  The setting was the dawn of the
Imperium, the year 0.  Unfortunately, Imperium Games, the company producing
the game, quickly earned a reputation for extraordinarily shoddy products.
Marc is working on a revision (T4.1).  Some of the supplements are worth
picking up.

Central Supply Catalog, Psionics Institute, Pocket Empires, Emperor's
Arsenal, Alien Achieve, and Milieu:0 Campaign are all worth a look.  Avoid
at all cost any of the adventures, except maybe The Long Way Home/Gateway.
Do not look upon Starships or First Survey, lest thine eyes fry from horror.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
          jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
                   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:06:32 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Grav vehicles

At 11:32 AM 4/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Question, sirs:
>
>IYTUs, what are the flight ceilings of grav vehicles. Are all grav-powered
>vehicles capable of near orbital altitudes? IIRC, this is insinuated if not
>outright stated in several Traveller sources. When I look at DGP's 101
>Vehicles, there are several designs that are explicitly stated to be
>capable of near orbital (and even interplanetary) journeys: examples
>include the Strike-it-Rich prospector's bubble, the Planet-Hopper grav
>sedan, the Tachcel hypergrav transport and the Hermes grav landing shuttle.

If the vehicle is capable of reaching escape velocity, it should reach
orbit.. of course, contragrav drives have horrendous fall-offs in
effectiveness away from gravity wells.

>However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
>capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
>"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?

Marketing?

- --

Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravCode: tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
          jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
                   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:10:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: particle physics

Bruce Alan Macintosh writes:

> This is somewhat misleading. It's not like inside a neutron there is an
> electron and a anti-neutrino bouncing around; a neutron is also just
> composed of three quarks. A neutron is an up quark (charge +2/3) and two
> down  quarks (charge -1/3.) When a neutron decays, one of the down quarks
> changes into an up quark; in the process it emits a electron. This is legal
> since electrons (like all leptons) can be created out of nothing, as long as
> charge+mass+momentum all balence - which they do, if a neutrino is created
> at the same time going in the opposite direction. (It's technically an
> anti neutrino for mildly complicated reasons.)
Um... if you're going to explain physics, get it all the way right.  Leptons
can't be created from nothing any more than baryons can, you need to preserve
lepton number (mesons _can_ be created from energy, as can bosons).  The
conservation laws you need to pay attention to in particle physics are:
conservation of mass/energy
conservation of momentum
conservation of charge.
conservation of spin (possessed by a variety of particles)
conservation of baryon number (+1/3 per quark, -1/3 per antiquark.  Baryons
consist of 3 quarks, and thus have a baryon number of +1 or -1.  Mesons are
composed of a quark and an antiquark, and have baryon number 0).
conservation of lepton number (electron, muon, tau, and the three corresponding
neutrino types all have +1; corresponding antiparticles have -1).

Due to the difference in mass between a neutron and a proton, the only way it
can preserve both mass and charge is by creating an electron -- it then also
has to create an electron antineutrino in order to preserve lepton number (and
spin).  If there is a significant mass bonus it could instead create pions
(probably two, I don't recall if pions have spin).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:36:26 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: sensor signatures for natural objects (somewhat long)

Executive summary: 
Detection ranges in an empty hex for a "typical"
sensor (PEMS-13, AEMS-11) are as follows:

Object			Passive Range		Active Range 
200-m iceball		50,000 km		500,000 km
Large Gas Giant		3000 AU			3000 AU (requires 1 month)
	(1 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant		300 AU			1000 AU (requires 11 days)
	(5 billion years old)

Small military sensors (PEMS-13.5) multiply ranges by x3; big military
or science sensors multiply range by x10.




In more detail, here are signatures on the FFS2 scale for all these
objects:

Object			Passive/Vis	Passive/IR	Active
Rocky asteroid		+0.5		+0.0		+0.5 
	(habitable zone)
Rocky asteroid		+1.0		+1.5		+0.5 
	(inner zone)
Rocky asteroid		-0.5		-2.0 *		+0.5 
	(outer zone)
Rocky asteroid		-2.5		-5.5 *		+0.5 
	(Oort cloud or empty hex)

C-type asteroid		+0.0		+0.0		+0.5
	(habitable zone)
C-type asteroid		+0.5		+1.5		+0.5
	(inner zone)
C-type asteroid		-1.0		-2.0 *		+0.5
	(outer zone)
C-type asteroid		-3.0		-5.5 *		+0.5
	(Oort cloud or empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using passive/IR.

Rocky asteroids are greyish (albedo 0.2 - 0.3). 
C-type asteroids are dark asteroids (albedo 0.05) mostly consisting of 
carbon compounds.
Comet nucleii and Kuipter belt objects roll 1d6; on 3- use the rocky
asteroid values, on 4+ use the C-type values.

These values assume a 1-m radius asteroid. For larger or smaller asteroids
use the following modifiers:

Asteroid Size modifiers:
Asteroid Radius		Passive/Vis	Passive/IR	Active
1 m			-2.0		-2.0		-1.0
10 m			-1.0		-1.0		-0.5
100 m			 0.0		 0.0		+0.0
1 km			+1.0		+1.0		+0.5	
10 km			+2.0		+2.0		+1.0
100 km			+3.0		+3.0		+1.5



Gas giants in empty hexes or Oort clouds use the following chart:

Object			Passive/Vis	Passive/IR	Active
Large Gas Giant		+3.0		+5.0 *		+6.5	
	(1 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant		+3.0		+4.0 *		+6.0
	(1 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant	+3.0		+6.0		+6.5
	(5 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant	+3.0		+5.0 *		+6.5
	(5 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf		+3.0		+8.0		+6.0
	(40 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf		+3.0		+7.5		+6.0
	(40 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using Passive/IR.


Detection can be calculated using the Definitive Sensor Rules (available
on the web or via email.) In essence, one adds the sensor sensitivity
(from FFS2 or the conversion notes in the DSR) to the target signature
and subtracts the range to calculate the "signal":

Signal = Sensitivity + Signature - Range + modifiers

and then compares to the following chart:
SIGNAL  active detection        passive detection
        task                    task
<0      (target cannot be detected under any circumstances)
0       Impossible              Impossible
0.5     Average                 Staggering (TNE: Formidable)
1.0     (automatic detection)   Average
1.5                             Easy
2.0                             (automatic detection.)

Ranges are taken from the following chart:

Range:                                                          RANGE
km                      BL Hexes        T4 name T4.1 name       term
<=500                                           regional        8
<=1,600                                                         8.5
<=5,000                                         continental     9
<=16,000                0                                       9.5
<=50,000                1-2                     planetary       10
<=160,000               3-5             VS                      10.5
<=500,000               6-16            S       far orbit       11
<=1,600,000             17-50           M                       11.5
<=5,000,000             51-160          L                       12
<=16,000,000            161-500                                 12.5
<=50,000,000            501-1600                                13
<=160,000,000   1 AU                                            13.5
<=500,000,000   3 AU                            interplanetary  14
<=1,600,000,000 10 AU                                           14.5
<=5,000,000,000 30 AU                           outsystem       15
<=16,000,000,000  100 AU                                        15.5
<=50,000,000,000  300 AU                        oort            16
<=500,000,000,000 3000 AU                                       17
30000 AU							18
100000 AU (1/2 parsec)						18.5
1 parsec							19
3 parsec							19.5
10 parsec							20.0

So, for example, a typical scout (Sensitivity=13.0) scanning for a 
rocky asteroid (passive (vis) signature = 0.5) at a range of 1 AU would
have a signal of (13.0) + (0.5) - 13.5 = 0.0, for an 
Impossible task to detect the asteroid.

A labship with a science-grade PEMS-14 looking for old gas giants in an
empty hex would have a signal of 14.0 (sensor) + 0.5 (empty hex science bonus) 
+ 4.5 (signature with science bonus) - 19 (range) = 0.5, a Staggering
task.

Remember the following modifiers to sensor sensitivity (taken from
the most recent version of the DSR) based on sensor location:

Sensor Location		Passive/Vis	Passive/IR	Active
Inner zone		-0.5		-0.5		 0.0
Habitable zone		 0.0		 0.0		 0.0
Outer zone		+0.5		+0.0		 0.0
Oort cloud/empty hex    +1.0            +0.0 (normal)	 0.0
					+0.5 (sci-grade)

(The full DSR also includes modifiers for long scans (1 day) and for
scanning only a single arc, which if combined allow a +1.0 for taking
2 weeks to do a scan.)

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #438
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 439



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Grav vehicles
Re: Traveller Geek Codes
Re: Grav vehicles
Traveller Trade: Intellectual Properties
T4 rules: skill advancement
Re: Grav vehicles 
Reavers' Deep
Re: Bootstrap in 38 years
Re: TML Searchable archives
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426
Re: Drop tanks
Re: Here we go round... (Jump drive once more)
Re: Changing the background
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 10:58:56 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Grav vehicles

>>However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
>>capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
>>"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?
>
>Marketing?

Exactly!  Which would you rather travel in:  a "Raft" or a "Sedan?"  :)

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:49:29 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Geek Codes

Walter Smith wrote:

> Joe Petit wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> While we're at it...
> dt: for drop tanks
>
> dt++ high capacity energy storage from jump drives is implemented for weaponry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>
> Sir, we seem to have some difficulties with our new jump-drive capacitor
> based planetbuster. Every time we power it up to ignition point, it
> disappears for a week....  ;)
>

Actually, the other discussion about partical physics would seem to do bad things
(tm) to n-space items in jump space.  Bad things in the Ghostbusters sense.  Which
would make for an excellent weapon, and if you come back a week later to pick up
your toy...

> Walt Smith
> dt+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:49:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Grav vehicles

I'm a History weiny; not a physics one. However from what I understand about
Canon Traveller physics, the Grav vehicles need a Gravity source to work
against, I would buy an Air/Raft making it up to orbit for example, especially
as even book 3 mentions it taking a couple of hours, (ie, it achieves orbital
velocity just as the Grav drives craps out due to the Grav drive reaching
minimal resistance from the planet). I don't buy interplanetary travel
however. I would presume that you would need a starship or non starship's
manuever drive. A good example of this concept is in the FASA games
Intercepter-Renagade Legion-Leviathan series. There are two seperate drives.
There is a vacuum manuever drive for fighters (they can also work in an
atmosphere) and a anti-grav drive for Grav Tanks. The books even describe an
orbital assault. The spaceships kick the Grav tanks out at a velocity that
will not maintain orbit (ie reentry). The Grav tanks make a controlled
meteroric reentry until the grav drives kick in. This gives incentive for
designing Striker and FFS Grav tanks and APC's with cabin pressure. I asume
that is what the G carrier (which is mentioned all over the LBB's) does.
Striker also implies that an Air/Raft has a Grav drive of .1G, so I asume that
this is the minimum to acheve orbit.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:55:03 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Traveller Trade: Intellectual Properties

Has anyone done any work with speculating in intelectual properties between
stars?  I'd think this might be potentially more lucrative than carrying
cargo, especially if you're going for distance.  It may be that this is all
tied up in the x-boat routes, but I'm dealing with a campaign that's pretty
far of the mains.

It's not like we're talking about anything that has any mass.
Possible Cargoes:
Publishing rights to entertainments: Books, films (holovids?), music, etc.
Publishing rights to technical journals.
Patent Licensing rights for processes.
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:07:29 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: T4 rules: skill advancement

I'm about to start using T4 rules and I have a few questions about
character advancement.

If you have successfully used 5 skills but only earn 3 points, what happens
to the other two (are they lost or do they carry over)?

Can you earn more than one attempt to check a skill by sucessfully using it
more than once?  Assuming carry over, what about more than once in
different adventures?

Must you make all your checks when you are awarded the points or can you
hold them until you've had a chance to successfully use other skills?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:07:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Grav vehicles 

Howdy!

Doug Berry wrote:
> At 11:32 AM 4/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
> >Question, sirs:
> >
> >IYTUs, what are the flight ceilings of grav vehicles. Are all grav-powered
> >vehicles capable of near orbital altitudes? IIRC, this is insinuated if not
> >outright stated in several Traveller sources. When I look at DGP's 101
> >Vehicles, there are several designs that are explicitly stated to be
> >capable of near orbital (and even interplanetary) journeys: examples
> >include the Strike-it-Rich prospector's bubble, the Planet-Hopper grav
> >sedan, the Tachcel hypergrav transport and the Hermes grav landing shuttle.
> 
> If the vehicle is capable of reaching escape velocity, it should reach
> orbit.. of course, contragrav drives have horrendous fall-offs in
> effectiveness away from gravity wells.
> 
> >However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
> >capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
> >"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?
> 
> Marketing?
> 
As I recall, grav vehicles are capable of reaching low orbit in a couple of hours
or something like that. 

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 04:19:03 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Reavers' Deep

Raygun <raygun@ihug.co.nz> types:

>What Pocket Empires Group Data Mark? Don't leave me hanging with teaser
posts like 
>this!! 
>Could you mail me the data or post the link?

     I'll dig it up what I have after I dig my way out of the backlog
caused by two weeks on the road.  A fair chunk of it was published in two
issues of the Traveller Chronicle.  The actual archives of the discussion
group may or may not still be on line.
    I'm in the process of putting my various gearhead designs from that
project on line.  Use the URL in the sig, and follow it to the Traveller
links, accessable from either the RPG page or from the Space Vermin page.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 21:42 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Bootstrap in 38 years

Moin Gurus,

	I just saw a canon bootstrap in 38 years from TL:3 to TL:A.

	" In -4074 the Zhodani heavy cruiser Lienqiets (Swift Wind)
	missjumped and was presumed lost; 40 years later, it returned
	to Colsulate space. It has spent 38 years on a tech level 3
	world fabricating an important component of its jump drive. "

					- Refree's Companion pg. 64

	I think something like that, was intended with the original
	question. As with HighGuard the maximum size of a TL:A ship
	is 10kdt (4fib/D computer) a heavy cruiser is around 3kdt.
	And has a crew of about 200 people. In MT a heavy cruiser
	would be between 10kdt and 100kdt (Rebellion Sourcebook or
	Fighting Ships) so up to 2500 people could cause this uplift.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 98 21:56 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: TML Searchable archives

Moin Bruce Alan Macintosh,

> I suppose a searchable archive set up so that automatic web engines only
> find the top layer might be OK.

	I should not be possible that a robot is walking through the arives,
	and insert them to AltaVista or a Spam database.

	Postings should be hidden behind a search form. A download (by
	week) would be nice and a special feature would be the download
	by topic (a search for jump drive would give thousands of
	references).

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:08:59 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

> Hasn't this subject been added to the FAQ yet along with near-c rocks and
> Technologically Elevated Dictators as 'done to death'?
> 
> The primary reason for sticking with decks perpendicular to the axis of
> thrust is simple; all my deckplans are already drawn that way...you think I
> wanna draw all *new* deckplans?!?
> 
> Pete


Actually, I think we should debate the topic of PIRATES again...<smirk>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:18:17 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

> That's nothing.  The TNG episode where Picard, Ro, and Chief Bartender
> Whoopi were returned to childhood by a transporter accident.  I spent most
> of the hour screaming "you've just invented practical immortality!!"  
> --

Actually, it's far, far worse...Imagine a subspace linked computer bank
that tied in with a comm-badge, constantly updating the bank with the
person's physio-mental image, so that if they died, a transporter could
replicate the person back to life.

See Stephen Golding's book, "The Eternity Brigade" for details on this.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:26:56 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #426

Sat, 25 Apr 1998 20:41:51 -0400, Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> > >If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?
>
> > Nothing say it doesn't just go right into jumping....

> You mean like a wormhole?

Depends what you mean by "like".  I mean like a wormhole in that the
process takes a lot of energy to set up..  Otherwise I would say
that there are significant differenes.

> Like, you form a wormhole that spans the distance between
> the two systems and it takes a week to fly through it?  That kind of jumping? Or
> do you mean that fuel is used to shift you into jumpspace?  In either case, you've
> just used up all your fuel.  How do you get from one point (either an end of a
> wormhole, or motion through jump space)  to the other?

Well, this isn't fully explained, and in no way contrains how energy is
applied to a jump.  One reasonable suggestion is that you don't move
through jumps space (perhaps it is even meaningless of talking about
moving through jump space).  You just don't enter it and leave it
from the same points in real space.

> How do you control a 28
> Trillion Mj explosion?

Well, you don't do an explosion.  However, one of my pet theories (its
not necessary for energy use without capacitors, but I do think it ties
up a few loose ends) is that that act of jumping is what allows you to
run a reactor at such high throughputs.  The initial stages of jumping
anchors the grid partially in jump space, giving you an energy sink to
pour energy into.

>  Finally, going back to the original point of contention,
> drop tanks require the use of some sort of capacitor to hold the energy long enough
> to eject the drop tank, which pretty much says it doesn't go right into jumping.

Well, if you want to invoke the idea that you don't need to be 100
diameters
away from other objects until you _finish_ jumping (which I don't care
for,
but its not constained by anything in the background that I know about),
you
can make drop tanks work without capacitors for both energy and
displacement
mass theories.  The energy, mass, or whatever gets used up early in the
jump, the
tanks are ejected, and then jump is completed with minimal need for
additional
energy.  However, I think drop tanks are mistake (they open the door for
radical changes in what ships need to jump) and should be forgotten
about
and ignored as much as possible.

> > Physics.  It takes energy to get you into orbit, but you can stay
> > there indefinately....
 
> OK, now that you've expended all this energy to get into jumpspace, how do you get
> out?

Depends on how it works.  Maybe you allow the energy to disapate.  Maybe
you naturally pop out after a week or so.  Etc.  It really says nothing
about who energy needs to be applied.

> > Who says you aren't buring it the most efficient way possible?

> Somebody posted that as a possibility, I was replied with the reduced fuel
> consumption problem.

I don't know if you are refering to me.  I did point that out and
I saw a reply that claimed there was a problem there.  As a mentioned
in my reply, I didn't see a problem.

> > Who says a high throughput reactor will be as efficient as a
> > low throughput.

> Nobody, but at TL 11- you definitely can't put a fusion reactor on any reasonably
> sized jump drive (i.e. PC ship) because the minimum size is too  big.

I'm sorry, I don't see your point.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:35:11 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks

Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:55:38 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
> >>First thing is that you need connections (both fuel pipe and monuting
> >>hardware) that match.

> > Which, even today, borders on thivial.  Sure it's a pain to have to
> > hunt around for the right fitting, but it hardly constitutes a need
> > for specially designed tanks.
>
> Remember, this stuff is at the very least "quick release". More likely
> it uses "explosive bolts". Which means that you *don't* just go
> slapping adapters on.

It doesn't.  Explosive bolts will work just fine next to an adapter.

> >>Second, the tanks have to be of a size that holds enough fuel, without
> >>holding too much. If they are too small, you won't have enough fuel for
> >>that extra jump. If they are too big, you'll have fuel sloshing around
> >>(*bad*!) AND you will be lugging around extra weight/volume.
> >
> > I'm not sure what you mean.  You leave the tanks behind, the extra
> > fuel won't be a problem.  Even if it was true, you would have
> > tanks for each size of ship, not for each _type_ of ship.
> 
> If there actually *is* extra fuel, having it spraying out (why put
> check valves in a drop tank?) could cause problems.

And why don't you just have a check valve?  Or why don't you just
not fill it all the way?

> If you just filled
> the tank part way, you get the fuel shifting around. And either way,
> you've got a *heavier* tank than your ship was intended to use.

So you design the ship to use heavier tanks.  Or just only put
as much fuel in them as you need.  Makes more sense
than require specially designed tanks for each model.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:03:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Here we go round... (Jump drive once more)

Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:59:20 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> >>If you don't store the energy in the capacitors, where do you store it?
> > 
> >Nothing say it doesn't just go right into jumping....
> 
> Nothing except the rules which state that you don't jump right away (By CT
> rules you delay the jump at least long enough to get rid of any drop tanks
> you may have; by MT rules you can delay the jump several hours)

Well, in fact that rules are inconsistent here.  You need explosive
bolts
to hurl drop tanks away, but you can delay jumping several hours.  The
bottom
line is that these don't appear to be consistently thought out and
nothing really depends on them.  You can assume jumping is right away
with vitually no change to the background (and in some cases it is
already implied that you do jump right away).  In any case, even if
can delay, that only means that you can keep some link to jump
space open for a while, not that the energy doesn't have to go into
jumping.

> >Who says you aren't buring it the most efficient way possible?
> >Who says a high throughput reactor will be as efficient as a
> >low throughput.

> Well, if you could explain the other problems away, I'd be inclined to
> swallow the concept of a special kind of fusion reactor that is introduced
> at TL 9 and dosen't improve one little bit over the next 7 TLs despite the
> fact that it's cousins improve all the time, but I tell you, it smacks
> mightily of a contrieved, after-the-fact handwave...

Well, in fact you don't assume it doesn't "improve one little bit"
at all.  You assume it doesn't improve enough to give a significant
change in game mechanics (which don't reflect every small change
in efficiency).  Nor is this inconsitent with a technology that 
is up against a fundamental limit.

(However, I personally go with a different theory, the dump it
right into jump space theory, but that is neither here nor there).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:39:34 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:06:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> >>This has an arbitrary feel. I think it would be best just to accept them
> >>as part of the Traveller background as they have always been.
>
> >Well, this is odd from someone who has show such a recence to just accept
						    ^^^^^^^
> reluctance ?

reticence actually...

> >canon as it is.
> 
> Well, if you really need my attitude explained one more time then here you
> are: IMO canon should be adhered to so long as it makes sense. If it does
> not make sense, making up some decent explanation that makes it make sense
> is preferrable to just changing it. And, finally, if no decent explanation
> springs to mind, changing it is better than to keep the nonsensical bit.

I actually agree with that statement.  But I guess I feel it is better
to
drop out ill considered additions (such as not having jump torps or drop
tanks) that screw up the fundamental basis fo the setting and it is
better
to use alternative explinations that are as close as possible to the
original (such as simply changing how energy is used for jump rather
than trying to come up with a whole new theory and fit it to the
characteristics of the old one).  I also sometimes think that there is
tendency to try and find, or even create, situations that don't make
sense
(such as the whole pircay thing where a lot of the objects rested on
making assumptions that are not canon) (the latter may be so common
becuase it gives people and chance to play with the background.)

> >Additionally, you are missing the point. I'm talking about when a
> >background feel hokey because explanations are piled up to force something
> >to fit and arbitrary preconception rather than allowing them the follow
> >from a few basic premises.

> No, I got the point all right. What you don't seem to grasp is that the
> point where the few basic premises should have been established was when
> the rules were first made up.

I agree with that.

> We're beyond that point now and have been
> for 20 years.

However, I don't agree that it is ever to late to remember that
a believable background follows as naturally as possible from basic
principals and use that to guide your actions.  Changes should
be as true to the basic principals, not patches that seem to 
fix what is immediately apparent.

> Furthermore, because you can't expect a game designer to use
> several lifetimes exploring all the raminfications of his rules before
> publishing, and because you can't expect a game designer to make it all up
> before the first book is published, it is silly not to expect to see some
> discrepancies arise as more and more material is written.  Those who control
> the developement should try to minimize such, of course, but it is
> unreasonable to expect them to be 100% successful.

And that is part of what I keep pointing out to people that claim that
have dealt with all the ramification of changing jump drives to
displacement
mass theory, or introducing jump torps, or allowing drop tanks (and why
these are so ill considered).  You simply can't know all the
ramifications
and you are simply introduces a source of yet more ramifications that
will need their own "patches" in the future, making the background 
more and more a hokey patchwork of things that all just happen to
work a certain way. 

> I might agree with you if it were a matter of 'piling up arbitrary rules
> for why it shouldn't change the entire face of space travel', but it isn't.
> The one thing it affects is the economics of freight and passenger traffic
> between high-volume star systems, and guess what: that is _already_ broken.

And that doesn't, to me, in anyway make changing the fundmentals of
space travel OK.  That will only create a whole new cascade of
ramifications that need to be dealt with.

> >Yeah, nothings perfect. OTOH, the fewer the better.  And this is one
> >that dropping would have almost no effect on the history.
 
> And why? Because drop tanks have had little effect on history. And why?
> Because they haven't been around for most of Traveller history. So it
> is equally true that retaining them won't affect the history.

Well, I have already agreed that any change that could reasonably
be introduced as a "new" technology, can be introduced as something
new without invalidating the existing history.  OTOH, that is the
choice of someone who isn't fixing the existing background, but
replacing it (keeping only the historical part of the setting) and
is clearly a direction that not everyone will want to go in.

> >No, I advocate simply ignoring them.  People that have them already can
> >keep using them, but since they won't be mentioned again, new people
> >won't be encouraged to introduce the problems they represent.

> Again, I might be more inclined to agree with you if I was able to see any
> of those big problems.

Well, I happen to think that eliminating the need for ships to carry
jump fuel is a big change.  But I guess we will have to let other
make up their own minds as we aren't going to convince each other.

> I see that you ignore the possibility of playing in an era where they
> haven't been invented yet.

Shrug, or those who like them can play an alternate time line.
One can always propose that active support be directly primarily
at the setting you want and those that don't agree have to adapt
their campaigns around that.

> >>No, I'd prefer someone else doing it for me.
> > 
> >Well, if a game company wanted to do keep drop tanks and work out
> >all the ramification, but through not needing jump fuel on ships, 
> >it could work.  However, you would essentially have a new setting in
> >which the entire basis for the interactions of worlds is different.
> >It then comes down to which background people prefer.  
> 
> Just as the Rebellion presented a new setting in which the entire basis for
> the interactions of worlds were different (You put that rather neatly).

Well, no.  The rebellion presented a setting in which the _motivations_
for interaction are different.  The basis for interaction is the same
as wars, trade, communications, etc. are all still conducted in exactly
the same way.

> >The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a big part
> >of the background.

> Yes? You still need big expensive ships to do high jumps with drop tanks.

Not as big or expensive as they were before.

> >The idea there will not be things like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where
> >ships arrive and depart from is another big change.
> 
> Are you talking about fuel stations at the 100 diameter limit? Because if
> you are, I must point out to you that the economics of jump travel even
> without drop tanks makes it profitable for ships to jump back and forth
> between jump limits and leave it to intra-system shuttles to convey the
> freight and passengers between surface and jump limit.

Even if I agreed (I haven't seen the basis for this, and its not like
I haven't diagreed with you on things like this before), we should then
introduce new technologies that make even more problems for the existing
background?  I thought you agreed that we wanted to be true to the
fundamentals.

> >All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
> >was in charge.
> 
> Excuse me? Isn't that a pretty extensive change?

I never said it wasn't.  I just said it wasn't a fundamental
change to the basis of the setting.

> >It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings of society.
> 
> Neither do drop tanks. so they make long-distance travel cheaper.

Which is the fundamental basis of the economy and affects every
person's lives.

> >>>And the you also have issue about just using the jump stations to jump in
> >>>the fuel you need to get back.
> > 
> >>That one I didn't get. What do you mean?
> > 
> >You need fuel to get back?  You room for one person and a jump field
> >generator on a tanks and use the jump station to provide the fuel
> >to send it to them.
> 
> I'm sorry, I can't parse that sentence.

I you don't need to carry jump fuel when you jump, that makes sending
fuel (as cargo) easier.  So if you want to go someplace without
a jump station, you just jump in both the ship and the fuel to
send it back.

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:52 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Shadow,

I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
alos means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.

Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
some ideas?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key


>In mail you write:
>
>> Yeah, i flopped the words perpendicular and opposite.  I had the right
intent
>> but poor execution. : )  Not knowing of deck plans for any larger ships,
I
>> dont' know if the AZHs are unusual in the orientation of their gravity.
The
>> small ships (excepting x boats, it seems) have "normal" deckplans.
>> Interesting.  Can't wait for my supp 5.
>
>Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
>"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
>"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.
>
>Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
>main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
>corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:46:05 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

And to add to what Doug has said...

Don't worry about reading any archives! From what I can see you don't need
to catch up, just join in!

The current main discussion is on the NATURE of JUMPDRIVE ver. 42.6, same
arguments, discriptions and gripes, no real resolution in sight.

Drop tanks, should they be canon ver. 22.8, see above.

Yet another call for Active Traveller campaigns...

All we need now is a good discussion of the Tech Level of the Rule of Man...
anyone care to start?

P.S. I'm really NOT usually this caustic but the arguments seem to remain
the same day after day after day, in a very circular fashion with little
movement on either side. It would be nice to see an answer, rather than the
same arguments. Heck, I'd settle for a mediocre "in our last game" story.

Sorry it's been one of those days.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433


>At 09:19 PM 4/27/98 -1000, you wrote:
>>Having just returned from a LONG absence from Traveller, I'm hoping
>>somebody can update me on whats been happening with Trav and the list
>>over the last 2-2.5 years
>
>welcome back to the fold.
>
>>When I had to quit back then, GDW had just gone bellyup along with TNE
>>and all future supplements...Did anything get resolved plotwise? ie, the
>>black curtain, the empress wave, etc?
>
>We've heard bits and pieces of what various authors had planned.. but
>nothing concrete IIRC.
>
>>I also see there is now yet ANOTHER traveller, t4. What is this? Does it
>>use Trav or TNE rules, and how successfull has it been?
>
>Ah.  T4, or Marc Miller's Traveller was an attempt to redo Classic in the
>light of twenty years experience.  The setting was the dawn of the
>Imperium, the year 0.  Unfortunately, Imperium Games, the company producing
>the game, quickly earned a reputation for extraordinarily shoddy products.
>Marc is working on a revision (T4.1).  Some of the supplements are worth
>picking up.
>
>Central Supply Catalog, Psionics Institute, Pocket Empires, Emperor's
>Arsenal, Alien Achieve, and Milieu:0 Campaign are all worth a look.  Avoid
>at all cost any of the adventures, except maybe The Long Way Home/Gateway.
>Do not look upon Starships or First Survey, lest thine eyes fry from
horror.
>--
>
>Douglas E. Berry, Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TravCode: tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>          jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #439
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Monday, April 27 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 440



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: High Lightning deck plan key
gas giant sizes?
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: gas giant sizes?
Re: gas giant sizes?
Re: Bootstrap in 38 years
My campaign
Re: Bootstrap in 38 years
re- help on finding a ship name
Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
Traveller 2300 (was: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300)
Re: re- help on finding a ship name
Re: re- help on finding a ship name
Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433
Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
Spin habs
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: To tech or not to tech?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:12:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Michael D. Peters writes:

> Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to
> compensate for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections
> rotating, but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g)
> and all of that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such
> a design for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone
> else have some ideas?

Well, rotating hull designs are a realistic or semi-realistic option, and under
those circumstances you will probably either be using a short burst drive (for
which period the hull gets locked down), or be using an extremely low thrust
drive (.01 Gs or lower).  Another flaw of rotating hulls is that they act like
immense gyroscopes, you better not want to turn while using rotational gravity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:19:58 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: gas giant sizes?

A quick question - is a "small gas giant" (in various expanded world generation
schemes) usually taken to mean something neptune-sized or something
saturn-sized? (Probably the former, I guess...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:28:40 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Michael D. Peters wrote:

> Shadow,
>
> I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
> as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
> postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
> so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
> intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
> passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
> alos means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.
>
> Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
> for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
> but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
> that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
> for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
> some ideas?

Use habitat balls. Free floating modules that rotate such that down is the
greatest force acting on it.  Like those "monster eyes" Taco Bell puts out
around Halloween. They could be implemented with eccentric axial pivots.
Transfer between habitat balls would be problematic though.

I suppose you could pull a stunt like that with something like the classic lab
ship.  Connect each module with a universal joint with a umbilical connecting
it.  Then you spin the modules for standard centrifugal force, but twist your
ring enough to compensate for the forward thrust.  When landing, the modules
would be rotated so that down is towards the planet and then stop the spinning.

Then the large uncompensated volume in the middle can be used for fuel or other
non-fragile cargo.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 15:31:23 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution

(Cross-posted to TTL: there's a Interminable Debate on the TML about how
drop tanks and jump drives and jump fuel work and whether drop tanks let you
have external tankers/jump stations, etc.)
(I'm curious as to what TTL heretics think of this approach.)
One quick note on the subject (which I will then go back to avoiding): much
of the heat would be removed from this argument if jump drive mass and fuel
consumption scaled as the ship's mass rather than volume. The savings for
drop tanks (or magic tankers) is large becuase a large fraction of a Traveller
high-jump ship's volume is fuel tankage, and jump drive size/fuel requirements
scale as volume - so hauling J-5 fuel tanks around doubles (roughly) the 
size of your ship, and there's a big advantage to tankers or drop tanks.

If jump drive and fuel size dependend on a ship's mass, however, this
advantage almost completely disappears for most civilian ships; since fuel
is so light, a jump-5 freighter is less than 7% jump fuel by mass - so
putting that fuel in drop tanks and dropping it (or getting it from a tanker)
only saves you about 7% of the cost of the ship - not enough to be worth the
hassle. If we make jump drive scale as the ship's mass not including fuel
then the math gets painful for designing ships but the advantage goes away
almost completely - all you save is the mass of the hull shell holding the fuel,
which is negligible for medium-sized civilian ships. For military ships,
there's more of an advantage since mil ships usually have heavily armoured 
hulls that account for a large fraction of their mass - but military ships
are unlikely to embrace the jump tanker/drop tank approach, at least for 
all their fuel, for other (obvious) reasons, and could get almost all the
advantage by putting the jump fuel in lightly-armoured demountable tanks
anyway.

Making jump performance depend on mass would have two other big advantages.
First, it removes the weaselly "carry jump fuel as water or methane" 
approach some people favour (you can cram more hydrogen atoms into a given
volume if you carry them as water - at the cost of a tremendous weight
penalty, of course.) Second, since ship maneuver performance mostly depends
on mass (in realistic design systems), we could design ships completely
around mass rather than volume - creating a "one-pass" design system that
people like Philip favour, where you specify the ship mass, add components
until you get close to that mass (including a maneuver drive whose performance
you can completely specify, as opposed to having to iterate like you do in
FFS2), then figure out the volume needed and wrap hull and armour around it.
On this basis I could turn FFS2 into something (almost) as simple as High 
Guard.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:32:42 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Anthony Jackson wrote:

> Michael D. Peters writes:
>
> > Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to
> > compensate for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections
> > rotating, but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g)
> > and all of that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such
> > a design for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone
> > else have some ideas?
>
> Well, rotating hull designs are a realistic or semi-realistic option, and under
> those circumstances you will probably either be using a short burst drive (for
> which period the hull gets locked down), or be using an extremely low thrust
> drive (.01 Gs or lower).  Another flaw of rotating hulls is that they act like
> immense gyroscopes, you better not want to turn while using rotational gravity.

  What if you have counter rotating sections? Wouldn't that cancel out the
rotational inertia?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:13:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Joe Pettit writes:
> 
>   What if you have counter rotating sections? Wouldn't that cancel out the
> rotational inertia?

It will make it more practical to turn the ship, but the connection between the
counter-rotating segments will have to be extremely strong or the ship will rip
itself apart when you turn, and in any case _being_ in any rotating section
while it is turning will be exceedingly unpleasant (if you aren't going to have
people strapped in, for a 100m radius ring a turning rate of 1 degree per
second will be serious lurching of the deck, 5-10 degrees will be bouncing
people off the walls).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:30:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: gas giant sizes?

Howdy!

Bruce asked:
> 
> A quick question - is a "small gas giant" (in various expanded world generation
> schemes) usually taken to mean something neptune-sized or something
> saturn-sized? (Probably the former, I guess...)
> 
Yes, Neptune/Uranus are "small" gas giants. Book (p. 39) defines the size ranges
to be 20,000 km to 60,000 km radius for small, 60,000 to about 120,000 km radius
for large.

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:33:59 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: gas giant sizes?

At 03:19 PM 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>A quick question - is a "small gas giant" (in various expanded world
generation
>schemes) usually taken to mean something neptune-sized or something
>saturn-sized? (Probably the former, I guess...)

According to the WBH, SGGs run from a UWP size of 20 to 100, LGGs 110 to
240, with an additional result of Brown Dwarf.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:30:35 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Bootstrap in 38 years

At 09:42 PM 4/27/98, you wrote:
>Moin Gurus,
>
>	I just saw a canon bootstrap in 38 years from TL:3 to TL:A.
>
>	" In -4074 the Zhodani heavy cruiser Lienqiets (Swift Wind)
>	missjumped and was presumed lost; 40 years later, it returned
>	to Colsulate space. It has spent 38 years on a tech level 3
>	world fabricating an important component of its jump drive. "
>
>					- Refree's Companion pg. 64

Ya know, being the Evil Genius that I am, I just thought of something. 

Play  this from the other side.  The TL 3 culture, in the midst of a
Renaissance type period, when all of a sudden these wizards or demons show
up, take over, and start upsetting the apple cart!  All sorts of call for
heroes!

Set it about thirty years along, and you could have natives trained in
"wizardry" working alongside the rebels...
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:45:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: My campaign

Howdy!

I'm putting together a campaign (Bowie, MD area) set in the
marches, circa 1117. I'm starting the players out in Wonstar 
(Five Sisters) with no grand plot line scoped out. One of my
players has roled up a Noble who got a Yacht. Being a devious
sort, he has proposed a non-standard yacht, inspired by the
rock he found in THUDD. I'm using MT rules mostly; I never
got into TNE and T4. I also plan to use some of the CT 
adventures in some form. I'll post periodically as I have
tidbits, and might even put up a web site...

Film at 11...

yours,
Michael

IMTU tc tm+ ?tn ?t4 pi ta- he+(--) ru++ ge+ 3i c(+) jt- au-
ls as+ va+ dt vi----

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:55:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Bootstrap in 38 years

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Michael Koehne wrote:

> Moin Gurus,
> 
> 	I just saw a canon bootstrap in 38 years from TL:3 to TL:A.
> 
> 	" In -4074 the Zhodani heavy cruiser Lienqiets (Swift Wind)
> 	missjumped and was presumed lost; 40 years later, it returned
> 	to Colsulate space. It has spent 38 years on a tech level 3
> 	world fabricating an important component of its jump drive. "

This doesn't imply an uplift for the local populace, merely a long time
getting the required raw ingredients together. If, for instance, they
needed a lot of lanthanum; 'all' they needed to do was locate supplies of
lanthanum ore, mine and refine enough of it to do what they needed, If
they had to explore on foot, and do most of the mining at TL-3, 38 years
seems a lot more likely a time frame.

Not surprising if they needed to conserve fuel and/or materials for the
various repairs. For the local populace, they might have merely been this
really strange tribe that appeared, showed wondrous things, and a peculiar
penchant for living at local levels of technology, and then one day
vanished back into the sky whence they came.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:04:05 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: re- help on finding a ship name

hey guys... 

i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
Titanic's sister ships..

i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
ship...

any one out there know it??

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:18:40 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution

At 03:31 PM 4/27/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>Second, since ship maneuver performance mostly depends
>on mass (in realistic design systems), we could design ships completely
>around mass rather than volume - creating a "one-pass" design system that
>people like Philip favour, where you specify the ship mass, add components
>until you get close to that mass (including a maneuver drive whose
performance
>you can completely specify, as opposed to having to iterate like you do in
>FFS2), then figure out the volume needed and wrap hull and armour around it.
>On this basis I could turn FFS2 into something (almost) as simple as High 
>Guard.

I like this a lot.  The "fill the box" system is a lot less enjoyable than
the "here is the stuff.  How much other stuff do I need to add to make a
real ship?" system.  I have been working at something like this for a
while, but have not had a lot of time for it.

Anyone who did this would likely get a guest spot in a game as a victim :-).

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 26 Apr 1998 07:48:25 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Traveller 2300 (was: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300)

Ha-ha! A quick Return-to-Topic (not return-to-target, I hope....)

>Date: Sat, 25 Apr 1998 21:50:21 +0100
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300
>
...
>Anyway, this set me thinking (and this is the Traveller bit). Andy's page
>describes running Traveller with 2300 rules (and gives conversion tips) -
>but has anyone tried running it the other way?
>
>I always liked the 2300 background, but I much prefer the T4.1 style rules
>that Traveller has. It loks like you could look at equivalent tasks,
>convert the weapons (maybe generate vehicles with Infini-V) and use the
>starships rules from 2300 as they are. If anyone has tried this, it would
>be interesting to hear about.
>

I can't say that I've done much system converting, and T4 is not my
Traveller of preference, but one of my current Traveller campaigns is set
in a background very similar to 2300's.

I use Gleise's Near Star Catalog for my campaign "map" (the 2300 map is
useful, but they put the in-game names of inhabited systems on it, instead
of the catalog name/number - difficult, if you aren't using *precisely*
that background).  I set the tech level to TL 10:  high enough to be
interesting, but limited to Jump-1.  This is key.

Rather than the usual Traveller assumption of one parsec per jump, I set
the jump range to 7.73 ly - the maximum range for stutterwarp ships in 2300
- - and insist that all jumps originate and end in stellar-sized gravity
wells.  This gives a pretty fair "grid" of possible jump routes. The
drawback is that I never figured out just what "Jump-2" would really mean,
other than bridging the gaps that were too great for Jump-1.  The search
for the "Quantum 2 Jumpdrive" is the Holy Grail of the campaign.

I assumed a preceding period of interstellar colonization by STL ships,
which gave some worlds a decent popluation before jump drive was invented,
and a modicum of political independence from the juggernaut of United
Earth.  That puts the timeframe of the campaign around AD 2450, with jump
drive less than 50 years old.  The campaign map I made flat by depicting
only the most important routes connecting the inhabited worlds, with a
symbol to tell the players whether a given route is the only possible
connection between the worlds shown, or whether there are bypasses.  The
Solar System is also fully colonized, and in fact sees as much adventuring
traffic as the outworlds.

The rest of the campaign I run with pretty straight-forward TNE rules.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:32:21 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: re- help on finding a ship name

>hey guys...
>
>i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
>Titanic's sister ships..
>
White Star had three sister ships, all named -ic:
Titanic, Olympic, and Brittanic
Cunard used the -ia naming convention:
Lusitania, Mauretania, and Aquetania
The Germans and Italians did not follow these anglo naming rules:
Vaterland was a German ship & I don't remember any of the others nor the
Italian competitor for the Transatlantic Blue Riband (the award for fastest
atlantic crossing)
>i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
>ship...

Interesting Tidbit re Cunard:
Cunard officials had decided to name their latest & greatest liner The
Queen Victoria, evoking the majesty and luxury of that by-gone era and
sticking with their particular naming convention. However, they were
concerned that the crown might not be pleased with their choice.  If the
King did not want a multi-hundred ton steel bathtub named after his
grandmother, then it was back to the drawing board.  They approached George
V and said "We would like to name our new liner after England's greatest
Queen."  Geordie said "My wife will be very pleased."  Cunard bowed to the
inevitable and named the liner "The Queen Mary."

ObTraveller: It would not be unreasonable to expect a shipping line to
follow a particular naming convention, banking on the reputation of the
"Rose of Sylea" for luxury to help them sell passage on the "Rose of
Regina" and the "Rose of Terra".
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:35:36 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: re- help on finding a ship name

At 08:04 PM 4/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>hey guys... 
>
>i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
>Titanic's sister ships..
>
>i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
>ship...

Being White Stars, they ended in -ic.  Titanic, Olympic, and...

damn.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:36:21 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution

Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> At 03:31 PM 4/27/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:
> >Second, since ship maneuver performance mostly depends
> >on mass (in realistic design systems), we could design ships completely
> >around mass rather than volume - creating a "one-pass" design system that
> >people like Philip favour, where you specify the ship mass, add components
> >until you get close to that mass (including a maneuver drive whose
> performance
> >you can completely specify, as opposed to having to iterate like you do in
> >FFS2), then figure out the volume needed and wrap hull and armour around it.
> >On this basis I could turn FFS2 into something (almost) as simple as High
> >Guard.
>
> I like this a lot.  The "fill the box" system is a lot less enjoyable than
> the "here is the stuff.  How much other stuff do I need to add to make a
> real ship?" system.  I have been working at something like this for a
> while, but have not had a lot of time for it.

My THUDD design was based on a expert system that does just that.  You specify a
few things, like maneuver G's, jump capability, etc.  Then declare your statics,
like cargo space and passenger staterooms.  The expert system then figures out
your minimum ship volume.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:34:58 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

> Having just returned from a LONG absence from Traveller, I'm hoping
> somebody can update me on whats been happening with Trav and the list
> over the last 2-2.5 years

Welcome!  
 
> When I had to quit back then, GDW had just gone bellyup along with TNE
> and all future supplements...Did anything get resolved plotwise? ie, the
> black curtain, the empress wave, etc?

If you're a TNE'er and/or are interested in the New Era, you might want to
join us on the TNE-RCES list.  Sub info on request.

> I also see there is now yet ANOTHER traveller, t4. What is this? Does it
> use Trav or TNE rules, and how successfull has it been?

Yup. And another Traveller gone. I don't think it was too successful.  Still
more, there's GURPS: Traveller on the way. And there's T"4.1" coming too.  
 
> I would also appreciate somebody pointing me to any archives that may
> contain list bundles for the last couple of years, so I can play
> catchup.

MPGN keeps archives of this list on their ftp site.  
 
> I know, that's a lot of requests and questions, but I'm burbning with
> curiosity!

Ask away!  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:52:47 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution

This discussion reminds me of Striker. You got to juggle mass (in metric tons)
and volume (cubic meters, with 14m3 = 1 displacement ton) in vehicle designs.
It always amused me that my 95 ton grav tanks massed MUCH more than a Book 2
or High Guard 95 ton shuttle. I guess that grav tanks have a LOT more armor
than a spaceship. I always wondered why High Guard ignored this. Did FF+S fix
this (I never got it. I'll wait for the T4.1 version)?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:54:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Spin habs

>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:52 -0400
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key
...
>Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
>for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
>but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
>that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
>for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
>some ideas?

  Rather than having a ring, have independent ring segments attached
by struts to an adjustable collar of some sort. This might be best as
a warship configuration, as it means that the ring won't be totally
disabled when part of it takes battle damage. The collar/hub would
adjust to balance remaining segments when next spinning under those
conditions.

  Preparing for combat would entail folding the segments down against 
the hull for protection (and reduced profile, I guess). They could be
rigged so that the folded position was perpendicular to the thrust
axis.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 19:49:32 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

>I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
>as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
>postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
>so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
>intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
>passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
>also means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.

While it's true the early deckplans have such an orientation, it is not
more of a convenience. Even on airframe configuration spacecraft that make
airplane style landings, the engines can be built into the belly of the
craft so it doesn't have to re-orient itself. More likely, airframe
spacecraft will land by gliding or with grav compensators and not their
main engines. And of course streamlined spacecraft will have to have ship's
'down' the opposide of the direction of thrust in order to land at all.
IMHO the perpendicular style deckplans are the result of game designers
thinking starships are a kind of ocean vessel.

>Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
>for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
>but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
>that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
>for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
>some ideas?

I have seen a few designs for this kind of thing in a NASA publication and
on the Lunar Institute of Technology web site. The basic idea is that the
spin section pivots along an axis 90 degrees to the spin axis. In one
design, the spin section rotates at the end of a boom, like the Salt 'n
Pepper Shaker amusement park ride. In another, a group of sections in a
torus-like configuration rotate inward, like rolling a stocking. In all
cases these work for accelerations only up to 1 G. At zero G, the boom or
torus spins normally and the inhabited section is pivoted so 'down' is away
from the axis of rotation. As the ship accelerates, the spin is reduced and
the inhabited section pivots toward the thrust end of the ship until, at 1
G thrust, it does not spin and is pointed toward the nose of the ship. A
comfortable 1 G is maintained in the cabin at all times.

- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:07:27 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

At 09:56 AM 27/04/98 -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>>Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Frankly, I find the "normal" orientation *highly* suspect. The
>>"perpendicular" style decks are usable with the g-comp knocked out. The
>>"parallel" type are death traps if that happens.
>>
>>Remember, without g-comp "down" means "opposite of the direction the
>>main drive is pushing the ship". Which makes that 20 meter nose to tail
>>corridor a 20 meter deep open shaft! Ouch!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>Another indication, IMO, of the reliability of ship's gravity and g-comp
>>systems - ships have been designed for centuries with no thought to what
>>would happen if these systems failed. Kind of like the way so few
>>automobiles carry tool kits any more.
>>
>>
>>Walt Smith
>
>
>Of course, when your car breaks down you rarely have to worry about falling
>20 (or 200) meters! :-)

Nope, but if (like my parents once did) your car breaks down on a mountain
plateau in winter and you don't have any tools you'll be in big trouble (my
parents' car had, and still has a complete set of tools in the boot).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:13:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

At 08:46 AM 27/04/98 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>At 12:48 AM 4/27/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>>Can you imagine what the discovery of the biological effects of
>>kironide[1] would do to a society? In Traveller, it'd be either all over
>>the place (making everybody who could afford it a major league psi) or
>>it'd be suppressed with a *huge* black market.
>>
>>In Trek they used it to beat the bad guys and promptly *forgot* about it.
>That's nothing.  The TNG episode where Picard, Ro, and Chief Bartender
>Whoopi were returned to childhood by a transporter accident.  I spent most
>of the hour screaming "you've just invented practical immortality!!"  

A fortnight ago my AD&D game almost died a horrible death because one of
the players admitted to liking TNG, DD9 and Voyager, and refused to admit
that they have nothing resembling internal consistency. He also maintained
that the technology made sense, though he did retract that after four of us
all pointed out neat weapon systems that would be doable with ST style
anti-matter, none of which TNG, etc use.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:20:54 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

At 01:18 PM 27/04/98 -0700, J-man wrote:
>> That's nothing.  The TNG episode where Picard, Ro, and Chief Bartender
>> Whoopi were returned to childhood by a transporter accident.  I spent most
>> of the hour screaming "you've just invented practical immortality!!"  
>> --
>
>Actually, it's far, far worse...Imagine a subspace linked computer bank
>that tied in with a comm-badge, constantly updating the bank with the
>person's physio-mental image, so that if they died, a transporter could
>replicate the person back to life.

And what's more it's dead easy to get all the ship crew you need. All you
have to do is record the signal and run off a few more copies - instant
clones.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #440
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 441



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: sensor signatures for natural objects (somewhat long)
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Changing Constants?
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Spin habs
Re: Traveller 2300 (was: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300)
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #440
Re: Spin habs
Re: Bootstrap in 38 years
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Striker
Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
Re: Bootstrap in 38 years
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Neat idea (was Re: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Spin habs
Re: re- help on finding a ship name
Re: Changing Constants?
Re: Boston drivers
SJ Games Daily Illuminator for 4/28/98

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:17:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: sensor signatures for natural objects (somewhat long)

At 10:36 AM 27/04/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>Detection can be calculated using the Definitive Sensor Rules (available
>on the web or via email.) In essence, one adds the sensor sensitivity
>(from FFS2 or the conversion notes in the DSR) to the target signature
>and subtracts the range to calculate the "signal":

Could someone please tell me where on the web these rules are to be found?
How easy is it to use these with TNE/Brilliant Lances/Battle Rider?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:24:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

At 05:32 PM 27/04/98 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:
>Shadow,
>
>I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
>as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
>postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
>so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
>intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
>passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
>alos means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.

Another reason for perpendicular decks on small ships is that you'll need
fewer decks, and in a small ship the elevators and/or stairwells comsume a
reasonable proportion of your availible volume, so having only a few decks
would help cut down this sort of wastage.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:26:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

At 03:12 PM 27/04/98 -0700, Anthony Jackson wrote:

>Well, rotating hull designs are a realistic or semi-realistic option, and under
>those circumstances you will probably either be using a short burst drive (for
>which period the hull gets locked down), or be using an extremely low thrust
>drive (.01 Gs or lower).  Another flaw of rotating hulls is that they act like
>immense gyroscopes, you better not want to turn while using rotational gravity.

2300AD often has contra-rotating pair of hull sections. Would this mean
that the gyroscopic effects would cancel, or do you get some other effect?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 98 02:52:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Changing Constants?

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:59:59 Leonard Erickson wrote...
>> what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a vacuum?
> That's why you need to be insulated from it. Increasing the value of c
> does *nasty* things to matter (in fact *most* physical constants need
> to be pretty close to what we measure them at, or we wouldn't be here
> to measure them).
    Okay, I'll bite.  What would the effects be if you started altering these
physical constants on which the Universe appears to be based?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:23:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 05:32 PM 27/04/98 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:
> >Shadow,
> >
> >I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
> >as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
> >postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
> >so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
> >intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
> >passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
> >alos means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.
>
> Another reason for perpendicular decks on small ships is that you'll need
> fewer decks, and in a small ship the elevators and/or stairwells comsume a
> reasonable proportion of your availible volume, so having only a few decks
> would help cut down this sort of wastage.

Elevators, stairwells, etc. are comparable to the volume taken up by long
hallways.  Architecturally speaking, its wasted space.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:29:49 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Spin habs

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, April 27, 1998 10:07 PM
Subject: Spin habs


>>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:52 -0400
>>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>>Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key
>...
>>Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
>>for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
>>but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
>>that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
>>for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
>>some ideas?
>
>  Rather than having a ring, have independent ring segments attached
>by struts to an adjustable collar of some sort. This might be best as
>a warship configuration, as it means that the ring won't be totally
>disabled when part of it takes battle damage. The collar/hub would
>adjust to balance remaining segments when next spinning under those
>conditions.
>
>  Preparing for combat would entail folding the segments down against
>the hull for protection (and reduced profile, I guess). They could be
>rigged so that the folded position was perpendicular to the thrust
>axis.
>
>        Steven Hudson


I thought of this, based in part on a 2300 ship (name eludes me at the
moment) design. I like the idea a lot, however the "joint" for the strutt is
a real b*#$h. I ran several cad models but couldn't come up with a design
that would allow access when the strutt was folded, or it was entirely to
massive to be practical. It would probably be ok for a VERY large ship, but
not for the early exploration vehicle I'm looking for.

I also thought of having "hamock" style floor sections in multiple
comartmentsbut movement between the sections looks like it will be too
complicated. Not to mention a LOT of wasted space and mass.

The multiple joint ring that some one else mentioned looked good at first,
but that many joint seals looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

I've come to 2 conclusions...

1) I see why I don't work for NASA

2) A pure zero-g ship (no grav section at all) is probably the best option,
but somewhat uncompfortable for long voyages. Spin grav will probably be a
practical solution for a "stationary" habitat, but ships that need to
manuver will be largely zero-g, until artificial grav and compensators come
into play.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:45:31 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller 2300 (was: Andy Slack's Website: Musings on 2300)

Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote:

> I can't say that I've done much system converting, and T4 is not my
> Traveller of preference, but one of my current Traveller campaigns is set
> in a background very similar to 2300's.

I intended to do just that.  Using Jim V's Starmap, i created a near future
(22nd century AD) galaxy... did world hex maps, a background... used primarily
TL9-10 from FF&S (some alternate tech, but no FTL, no grav focusing, no meson
guns).   
I have everything set up...  well the complete background is mostly in my
head.  We're just having too much fun w/ the RC right now.  I've been
considering revisting my faltered Regency campaign, too... I still want to get
to it, but it just ain't happening right now...

> I use Gleise's Near Star Catalog for my campaign "map" (the 2300 map is
> useful, but they put the in-game names of inhabited systems on it, instead
> of the catalog name/number - difficult, if you aren't using *precisely*
> that background).  I set the tech level to TL 10:  high enough to be
> interesting, but limited to Jump-1.  This is key.

Have you seen Jim V's Starmap?  Excellent program.  Uses the Gliese's 3rd
Catalog, the most update, i think.  He put in some random filler too (where
there appear to be "gaps").  You can create your own completely fresh galaxies
or use the Gliese 3rd Catalog data.

>Rather than the usual Traveller assumption of one parsec per jump, I set
>the jump range to 7.73 ly - the maximum range for stutterwarp ships in 2300
>- - and insist that all jumps originate and end in stellar-sized gravity
>wells.  This gives a pretty fair "grid" of possible jump routes. The
>drawback is that I never figured out just what "Jump-2" would really mean,
>other than bridging the gaps that were too great for Jump-1.  The search
>for the "Quantum 2 Jumpdrive" is the Holy Grail of the campaign.

FTL hasn't been discovered yet in mine.  I'm going to allow 2 to 4 types of
FTL, i think.  Wormhole's.  Subspace (and keyhole drives ala B5). and am
considering stutterwarp and J-drives (i used to not like em much, but they've
been growing on me).

<snip>
>connection between the worlds shown, or whether there are bypasses.  The
>Solar System is also fully colonized, and in fact sees as much adventuring
>traffic as the outworlds.

Interesting.  I've envisioned much the same.  Mars, the asteroid belt, but not
much beyond that (primarily military).

>The rest of the campaign I run with pretty straight-forward TNE rules.

Ditto.  Ain't they great? : )  ::::don asbestos loin cloth:::

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:45:32 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

One thing to note about those Earth Alliance B5 ships w/ the rotating sections
(the Omega Class Destroyers)... they're SLOW!  They've taken the slow
approach.  Anyone who's tried B5 Wars from AOG knows what I mean.  Gravitic
Drives (Minbari) literally fly circles around em...

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:56:04
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #440

>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 20:52:47 EDT
>From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
>
>This discussion reminds me of Striker. You got to juggle mass (in metric
tons)
>and volume (cubic meters, with 14m3 = 1 displacement ton) in vehicle designs.
>It always amused me that my 95 ton grav tanks massed MUCH more than a Book 2
>or High Guard 95 ton shuttle. I guess that grav tanks have a LOT more armor
>than a spaceship. I always wondered why High Guard ignored this. Did FF+S fix
>this (I never got it. I'll wait for the T4.1 version)?

High Guard ignored mass, effectivly. FFS doesnt ... mass, length, surface
area, volume and cost are your effective constraints when designing
something (length is important for the range of meson guns and particle
weapons ... if you want an x range PAW at tl Y, your craft will need to be
z meters long to fit it in).

Grav plates are much more efficient than thrusters and combat at planetary
ranges tends not to have speed-of-light lag as a factor in combat, so
combat vehicles can both be more massive and need to be more massive (you
can't dodge a laser beam at 10 km).

Ian Whitchurch

PS You can do evil things with anti-grav thrusters and batteries ...
remember the Famile Spofulam Grav Pogo Stick !

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:55:56 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Spin habs

At 11:29 PM 27/04/98 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:

>I thought of this, based in part on a 2300 ship (name eludes me at the
>moment) design. I like the idea a lot, however the "joint" for the strutt is
>a real b*#$h. I ran several cad models but couldn't come up with a design
>that would allow access when the strutt was folded, or it was entirely to
>massive to be practical. It would probably be ok for a VERY large ship, but
>not for the early exploration vehicle I'm looking for.

IIRC it's the Suffren class of French cruisers. They solved the problem by
having airlocks that mated to locks on the hull when the spin capsules lie
flat.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 00:15:49 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Bootstrap in 38 years

kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) wrote

>         I just saw a canon bootstrap in 38 years from TL:3 to TL:A.
> 
>         " In -4074 the Zhodani heavy cruiser Lienqiets (Swift Wind)
>         missjumped and was presumed lost; 40 years later, it returned
>         to Colsulate space. It has spent 38 years on a tech level 3
>         world fabricating an important component of its jump drive. "
> 
>                                         - Referee's Companion pg. 64

What makes you believe that the crew of the Lienquiets taught the worlds
natives enough to bring them to TL A ?  When I read this bit I
interpreted it as it took the crew of the ship 38 years, using their
machine shop, to build the toolt, to build the tools, to mine the ore,
to process the ore, to fabricate the part, etc for its jump drive.

- -- 
Peter Newman		pnewman@alaska.net

"Laissez-nous faire, laissez-nous passer.  Le monde va de lui-mme."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:31:36 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

> A fortnight ago my AD&D game almost died a horrible death because one of
> the players admitted to liking TNG, DD9 and Voyager, and refused to admit
> that they have nothing resembling internal consistency. He also maintained
> that the technology made sense, though he did retract that after four of us
> all pointed out neat weapon systems t


I love Star Trek dearly, but as far as actual tech goes, they are way
around the bend.  The transporter itself is a direct impossibility,
which they neatly side-stepped in one show by claiming it had
"Heisenburg Compensaters" in it.  Gee that's neat.  :)

Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
else too.  This last Voyager with the "Omega" particles was laughable. 
The entire Federation scared stiff over something slightly more potent
then an anti-matter bomb.  I felt it was overplayed.  They should have
had the Omega Molecule be something that destroyed parts of the
universe, in order to make it a real gut-wrenching threat.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:06:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Striker

>This discussion reminds me of Striker. You got to juggle mass (in metric tons)
>and volume (cubic meters, with 14m3 = 1 displacement ton) in vehicle designs.
>It always amused me that my 95 ton grav tanks massed MUCH more than a Book 2
>or High Guard 95 ton shuttle. I guess that grav tanks have a LOT more armor
>than a spaceship. I always wondered why High Guard ignored this. Did FF+S fix
>this (I never got it. I'll wait for the T4.1 version)?

  Actually, they did acknowledge it. IIRC, the APC in the Kinunir at
14 Dt is almost certainly the 168m^3 several hundred metric ton brick
listed in Striker Book: 3. Clearly, the hull alone of the Kinunir must
weigh some multiple thousands of tons; therefore it follows that assumed
relative density of ship structures should be on the order of 10-20 metric
tons per displacement tons.

  FWIW, that TL: 15 Marine APC has more firepower than Terra of 1945.
It really does point up a Kinunir's ability to function as a low-tech
colonial policeman.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:06:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra

Hello,
>All we need now is a good discussion of the Tech Level of the Rule of Man...
>anyone care to start?

  Not one, but TWO gluttons for punishment! :)

Terra TL and the Long Night:

(Leroy)
>>A high Tech Terra, all the way through the Interstellar Wars, through the
>>entire period of the Rule of Man, through the Long Night, through the early
>>Dawn, and later joining the Third Imperium _is_ consistent with what has
>>been published.  And I can see this for either a Terra of TL15 or TL16 as
>>a common Tech.
(Harold Hale) 
>  No change for 3000 years?

  That's a heck of a good point. The genius Solomani, having gone from 
TL 9 to 15 in a couple centuries, then never develop anything else, with
the possible exception of a few TL 18-21 genetics, terraforming, and 
robotics technologies; you know, stuff. Nothing you'd notice.

  This ignores how the Solomani had J-6 or so yet couldn't maintain
interstellar trade.

  It doesn't explain why almost everyone else lost TL's over the
Long Night. Nor does it explain why TL 15 Terra didn't dominate
(or resist - successfully - Imperial encroachment).

   It certainly doesn't explain why the Sword Worlders (Terrans who
left around -420 [AM6, p.12]) weren't giggling at the primitive
Imperials whom they would have butchered in the Frontier Wars; why
the Sword Worlders would lose their TL 15 heritage would otherwise
need to be explained.

(Harold Hale) 
>>   It is entirely consistent for Terra to be early TL 15 in 1000, TL 11
>>during the Long Night, TL 12 during the RoM, and TL 10-12 during the
>>Interstellar Wars.

  This encapsulates what I've concluded. I've yet to see a GDW product
that contradicts this explicitly, and would appreciate being informed
of any such reference.

 Remember, the third time might get you the real thing :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:52:14 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra

> 
>    It certainly doesn't explain why the Sword Worlders (Terrans who
> left around -420 [AM6, p.12]) weren't giggling at the primitive
> Imperials whom they would have butchered in the Frontier Wars; why
> the Sword Worlders would lose their TL 15 heritage would otherwise
> need to be explained.

Didn't the sword worlder's feudal type of society lend to the break-down
of their tech levels?  As more and more sword worlders left the sword
worlds, this would drain valuable people and techs would it not? 
Eventually those who were left would be less and less able to fix things
as they broke, and unable to create new things?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:01:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Bootstrap in 38 years

Michael Koehne writes:

> 	I just saw a canon bootstrap in 38 years from TL:3 to TL:A.
> 
> 	" In -4074 the Zhodani heavy cruiser Lienqiets (Swift Wind)
> 	missjumped and was presumed lost; 40 years later, it returned
> 	to Colsulate space. It has spent 38 years on a tech level 3
> 	world fabricating an important component of its jump drive. "
> 
> 					- Refree's Companion pg. 64

That dosen't have to mean that the host society was boosted to TL 9+ in
that time, merely that the ship, with all its workshops, still needed
38 years to manufacture one single component. It is often possible to
hand-manufacture things long before it becomes economically feasible to
mass-manufacture them (revolvers were made almost a century before
Samuel Colt started manufacturing them, various clockwork mechanisms
were made during the reinaissance, etc.). Plus, as I said, the ship
would have had the use of its workshops to speed up the manufacture. 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:52:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

In mail you write:

> At 05:32 PM 27/04/98 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:
>>Shadow,
>>
>>I agree. Most "early" tech deckplans will display a perpendicular style such
>>as the AZH, as would many warships, IMHO. If the G-comp blows it's a better
>>postion to have 'down' be opposite the direction of thrust! I see the
>>so-called 'normal' orientation as being used mostly on small vessels,
>>intended for airplane style landings. This is more of a convenience, so that
>>passengers and crew can enter/exit the ship without having to re-orient, it
>>alos means that the internal gravity doesn't have to be left running.
>
> Another reason for perpendicular decks on small ships is that you'll need
> fewer decks, and in a small ship the elevators and/or stairwells comsume a
> reasonable proportion of your availible volume, so having only a few decks
> would help cut down this sort of wastage.

Actually, the "airplane style" decks are *parallel* to the thrust,
while AZH type decks are perpendicular to it. Other than that, you've
got a point.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 02:56:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Neat idea (was Re: To tech or not to tech?)

In mail you write:

> At 08:46 AM 27/04/98 -0700, Douglas Berry wrote:
>>At 12:48 AM 4/27/98 PST, you wrote:
>>
>>>Can you imagine what the discovery of the biological effects of
>>>kironide[1] would do to a society? In Traveller, it'd be either all over
>>>the place (making everybody who could afford it a major league psi) or
>>>it'd be suppressed with a *huge* black market.
>>>
>>>In Trek they used it to beat the bad guys and promptly *forgot* about it.

I just had a *nasty* thought. Have kironide discovered. First bit is
too see if any of the players recognize the name. If they do, you'll
shortly know just how good they are at role playing as they have to
struggle to keep what *they* know and what their *character* knows
seperate. 

Then comes the fun when the effects get accidentally discovered. The
ship that has the ore, and knows where it came from is going to have
*everyone* after it if the word leaks out. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:16:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spin habs

In mail you write:

> I thought of this, based in part on a 2300 ship (name eludes me at the
> moment) design. I like the idea a lot, however the "joint" for the strutt is
> a real b*#$h. I ran several cad models but couldn't come up with a design
> that would allow access when the strutt was folded, or it was entirely to
> massive to be practical. It would probably be ok for a VERY large ship, but
> not for the early exploration vehicle I'm looking for.
>
> I also thought of having "hamock" style floor sections in multiple
> comartmentsbut movement between the sections looks like it will be too
> complicated. Not to mention a LOT of wasted space and mass.
>
> The multiple joint ring that some one else mentioned looked good at first,
> but that many joint seals looks like a disaster waiting to happen.
>
> I've come to 2 conclusions...
>
> 1) I see why I don't work for NASA
>
> 2) A pure zero-g ship (no grav section at all) is probably the best option,
> but somewhat uncompfortable for long voyages. Spin grav will probably be a
> practical solution for a "stationary" habitat, but ships that need to
> manuver will be largely zero-g, until artificial grav and compensators come
> into play.

The usual solutions prposed for when the ship will spend most of it's
time coasting are either a *long* ship that spins "end over end" (which
means that the "upper" decks are only usable during zero g and spin,
but the "lower" decks are always usable) or else seperating the ship
into two segments attached by long cables and spinning that.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:20:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: re- help on finding a ship name

In mail you write:

> At 08:04 PM 4/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>hey guys... 
>>
>>i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
>>Titanic's sister ships..
>>
>>i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
>>ship...
>
> Being White Stars, they ended in -ic.  Titanic, Olympic, and...

Majestic.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 03:21:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Changing Constants?

In mail you write:

> On Sun, 26 Apr 1998 00:59:59 Leonard Erickson wrote...
>>> what if jumpspace is an even better medium for light than a vacuum?
>> That's why you need to be insulated from it. Increasing the value of c
>> does *nasty* things to matter (in fact *most* physical constants need
>> to be pretty close to what we measure them at, or we wouldn't be here
>> to measure them).
>     Okay, I'll bite.  What would the effects be if you started altering these
> physical constants on which the Universe appears to be based?

Depends on the constant. I recall some of the effects of various
changes, but not which constant was being changed:

Matter more complex than hydrogen can't form

Stars don't last long enough for life to develop

*Matter* can't form

And one subtle one. Water boils at around -100 C. (has to do with the
van der waals force which is a consequence of some quantum effect)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:30:42 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Boston drivers

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> > At 05:07 PM 4/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
> > >>Oh, no...having driven in all three, I can DEFINITELY state that Bahston
> > >>drivers are in a class of their very own. NOWHERE on the planet have I
> 
> No, Swedish drivers are much worse.  They're much faster, less
> competent, and more reckless.  
>  
> > Don't forget the one-way-street mazes...  Unlike anything I've seen elsewhere!
> 
> On the other hand, the streets are generally much easier to navigate in
> Sweden (even in medieval cities like Lund and old Stockholm).  

I've once been to Turkey on a holiday, and my father drove the car.
Although he's european, he had no problems driving there, as he soon
recognized the way you drive there - hoot once: I' m coming, hoot twice:
I'm getting over, hoot thrice: Thank you. (Or so...)

When my father has been to Russia, this time as a pedestrian, he told us
later how you get over the streets: look left, look right, hear left, hear
right, and when you're really sure no one's coming, cross the street ...

We've also travelled England with a german car, there's no problem in it
until you get an unclear situation and have to evade - to the OTHER side!

I believe a higher vehicle skill will compensate for these problems, but
it's getting interesting for everyone.

A chinese curse: Will you live in interesting times!

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:39:47 MET
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: SJ Games Daily Illuminator for 4/28/98

Hey guys, just received this from SJG:
I am already getting wt hands thinking of this stuff, can't wait to 
see it!
>> SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller -- Let the Playtest Commence!

    As of today ("Real Soon Now") the remaining chapters of the GURPS Traveller
   first draft have been posted to the playtest site, and the first draft
   is available for playtest, commentary, and dissection.

   

   The first files of the second GURPS Traveller release (tentatively titled
   Behind the Claw: The Spinward Marches Sourcebook) have arrived, and we
   expect to have it up by the end of the week.

   

   Pop over to the playtest site. We have room for more equipment descriptions
   than I counted on originally, and your comments and suggestions on what
   to include are welcome!

   -- Loren Wiseman<<
   

Ad Astra,
V.A.G.       
- ------  Volker A. Greimann, also known as: Grei5001@uni-trier.de  ----
- -- Am Weidengraben 86,C6 - 54296 Trier - Germany - T+F: +49651148846 -
- ------- check out: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061 --------
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #441
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 442



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Active Traveller Campaigns
Re: Changing the background
Re: Jump drive once again
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: Spin habs
Deck Plans (was re:Azhanti High Lightning)
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Ranks
re: Changing the background
re: To tech or Not To Tech
Re: ship name
A New Free Trader
Re: TML Searchable archives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:53:40 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaigns

On 22 Apr 1998, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Alright boys and girls, now that I've got a webpage it's time
> once again for a census of Active Traveller Campaigns (ATC).
> 
> If you're in an active Traveller Campaign, send me an e-mail
> with this format:
 
Location: Cologne, Germany
Founding date: Summer 1996
Group size: 7 plus guests
Number of referees: 1
Health: one to bimonthly by now, one player left the group
Predominant rules system: MegaTraveller
Campaign location: Spinward Marches (Regina Subsector by now)
Campaign time: 1105
E-mail contact: adler@hartree.pc.uni-koeln.de
 
> Please keep the tag field names above, as it will let me process
> the data automatically.
> 
> Rob
> 
> P.S. I should add "drop tanks" to the IMTU code, shouldn't I?
> 
> --
> 
> IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

David P. Summers writes:
>Mon, 27 Apr 1998 16:06:01 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen

>And that is part of what I keep pointing out to people that claim that
>have dealt with all the ramification of changing jump drives to
>displacement mass theory, or introducing jump torps, or allowing drop
>tanks (and why these are so ill considered). You simply can't know all the
>ramifications and you are simply introduces a source of yet more
>ramifications that will need their own "patches" in the future, making the
>background  more and more a hokey patchwork of things that all just happen
>to work a certain way. 

Not if the change is to a simpler concept. Besides, I'm not (in this case)
advocating a change but the retention of an already-existing feature.

>>I might agree with you if it were a matter of 'piling up arbitrary rules
>>for why it shouldn't change the entire face of space travel', but it isn't.
>>The one thing it affects is the economics of freight and passenger traffic
>>between high-volume star systems, and guess what: that is _already_ broken.
> 
>And that doesn't, to me, in anyway make changing the fundmentals of space
>travel OK.  That will only create a whole new cascade of ramifications that
>need to be dealt with.

Not if the change is to a simpler concept. Besides, drop tanks does not
change the fundamentals of space travel. Turning it into a warp drive or
making jumps instantaneous, now _that_ would be a fundamental change.
 
>>Again, I might be more inclined to agree with you if I was able to see any
>>of those big problems.
> 
>Well, I happen to think that eliminating the need for ships to carry
>jump fuel is a big change.

Eliminating the need for all ships everywhere to carry their own fuel would
be a fairly big change, I suppose (though not nearly as big as, say,
requiring them to travel in convoy in order to protect them from enemy
raiders), but that is not the case. It only works for ships whose route
never touches a star system without drop tank facilities. Which happens
to be a class of ships that has not for any practical purposes been
touched upon by any Traveller publication so far.
 
>But I guess we will have to let other make up their own minds as we aren't
>going to convince each other.

Tell you what. Give me a few examples of features in some published Traveller
material that is invalidated by the logical ramifications of the existence of
drop tanks. That would convince me to re-evaluate my stance on drop tanks.
 
>>Just as the Rebellion presented a new setting in which the entire basis for
>>the interactions of worlds were different (You put that rather neatly).
> 
>Well, no.  The rebellion presented a setting in which the _motivations_
>for interaction are different.

Wow! That one deserves to be nominated for the World Hairsplitting
Championship. If the motivations change, so does the basis for interaction.
In the rebellion the entire basis for the interaction of worlds were
different from the Classic Era.

>>>The idea that you need big exensive ships to do higher jumps is a big part
>>>of the background.
> 
>>Yes? You still need big expensive ships to do high jumps with drop tanks.
> 
>Not as big or expensive as they were before.

Exactly as big and expensive as before. The cost of cargo space is the same
as the cost of fuel tankage. Indeed, the fuel cost is increased with drop
tanks (Quite significantly increased, in fact, if you go by the true costs);
it's only the per item (freight and passengers) cost that drops because each
ship can carry enough more to compensate for the increased fuel costs.
 
>>>The idea there will not be things like the jump gates in Babylon 5 where
>>>ships arrive and depart from is another big change.
>> 
>>Are you talking about fuel stations at the 100 diameter limit? Because if
>>you are, I must point out to you that the economics of jump travel even
>>without drop tanks makes it profitable for ships to jump back and forth
>>between jump limits and leave it to intra-system shuttles to convey the
>>freight and passengers between surface and jump limit.
> 
>Even if I agreed (I haven't seen the basis for this, and its not like
>I haven't diagreed with you on things like this before), we should then
>introduce new technologies that make even more problems for the existing
>background?  I thought you agreed that we wanted to be true to the
>fundamentals.

What new technologies? Drop tanks are already a part of the existing
background. It's you who want to eliminate them. OK, I'm not opposed to
eliminating troublesome bits of canon, if there is a real need to do so.
(I can't very well be, since there are several parts of the background
I would like to change). But IMO the proper basic assumption is that
canon should be changed as little as possible and that the burden of
proof lies on the person who propose the change. You can talk all you
like about how likely it is that keeping drop tanks will mess up
something else some time in the future, but until you actually point
to a genuine contradiction or a major problem  --  in a well-reasoned
argument rather than a vague allusion  --  drop tanks must IMO be
presumed innocent.
 
>>>All the rebellion ever really changed was who fought whom and who
>>>was in charge.
>> 
>>Excuse me? Isn't that a pretty extensive change?
> 
>I never said it wasn't.  I just said it wasn't a fundamental
>change to the basis of the setting.

I notice that you ignored the small list of fundamental changes the
Rebellion would mean to a Classic Era campaign.
 
>>>It didn't do anything about the fundamental workings of society.
>> 
>>Neither do drop tanks. so they make long-distance travel cheaper.
> 
>Which is the fundamental basis of the economy and affects every
>person's lives.

Yes, but does it affect anything that has _already_ been established about
the Traveller background? I fully admit that the day someone tries to set
up an extensive economic model for a high-population system close to other
such systems, then the existence/non-existence of drop tanks will make a
difference. But no one has done anything like that so far, so what's the
big problem? 
 
>I you don't need to carry jump fuel when you jump, that makes sending
>fuel (as cargo) easier.  So if you want to go someplace without a jump
>station, you just jump in both the ship and the fuel to send it back.

Ah, I see. Yes, that's true. Again, so what? Or, to repeat the question I
posed above, can you give me a few examples of features in some published
Traveller material that is invalidated by the fact that laying out fuel
dumps would be easier? (Note that it just becomes easier; it has been
possible to lay out fuel depots since the first jump-1 ship was built).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:49:55 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Jump drive once again

David P. Summers writes:
> Mon, 27 Apr 1998 14:59:20 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
><rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>>Nothing say [the energy produced by burning all the jump fuel] doesn't
>>>just go right into jumping....
>> 
>>Nothing except the rules which state that you don't jump right away (By CT
>>rules you delay the jump at least long enough to get rid of any drop tanks
>>you may have; by MT rules you can delay the jump several hours)
> 
>Well, in fact that rules are inconsistent here.  You need explosive bolts
>to hurl drop tanks away, but you can delay jumping several hours.

Ah... you need explosive bolts for the 1105 version of drop tanks; you can
wait several hours with the Rebellion Era version. This could be no more
than the 'discrepancy' between a Sinclair and a Pentium. Of course, in
that case I have to abandon the "access mass" explanation. Oh well...
back to the drawing board... 

>The bottom line is that these don't appear to be consistently thought out

Any more than a lot of the rest of the Traveller background, but you don't
seem inclined to throw that away. Getting rid of something should be a
last resort.

>and nothing really depends on them.

That's not the point when it comes to already-established elements. The
question in that case is, do they conflict with anything else. So far
you've failed to come up with anything.

>You can assume jumping is right away with vitually no change to the
>background (and in some cases it is already implied that you do jump
>right away).  In any case, even if can delay, that only means that
>you can keep some link to jump space open for a while, not that the
>energy doesn't have to go into jumping.

I think I have to change my mind and agree with you. If you can delay jump
for several hours after the fuel has been expended, then some sort of link
to jumpspace must exist, and it must be able to remain linked to the ship
while it moves in real space. That sounds more like an energy field than
a bubble of hydrogen. OK. What I propose now is that the fuel is burnt,
but that the energy from that is not stored in the capacitors. Rather, it
is dumped directly into jumpspace and builds up a field _almost_ to the
threshold. Then the capacitors discharge a final (comparatively small)
burst of carefully controlled energy and puts the ship over the threshold.
If the final discharge is not made, the jump field slowly dissipates over
time. How's that?

>>Well, if you could explain the other problems away, I'd be inclined to
>>swallow the concept of a special kind of fusion reactor that is introduced
>>at TL 9 and dosen't improve one little bit over the next 7 TLs despite the
>>fact that it's cousins improve all the time, but I tell you, it smacks
>>mightily of a contrieved, after-the-fact handwave...
> 
>Well, in fact you don't assume it doesn't "improve one little bit" at all.
>You assume it doesn't improve enough to give a significant change in game
>mechanics (which don't reflect every small change in efficiency).

Which means it improves less than 2% over those 7 TLs (Otherwise it would
affect the fuel needed for jump-6 ships). Compare that to the improvement
in the related field of ordinary fusion reactors and you will see that
you're splitting hairs again.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:58:23 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, Rob Prior wrote:

> True, but then if the players know that they can't die then the game also
> loses something.
> 
> I used to play D&D with a friend who wouldn't kill a player, no matter how
> stupid the mistake. It rather took the challenge out. I mean, why bother
> to be clever when being stupid gets you the same result in the end?

This works also the other way round. One of my players does his characters
the 'nevermind' way, i.e. he calculates them to die in some accident soon.
The problem is that he seems not to be interested in fleshing out his
characters, he always uses them as dummies for the fight. Not the way I'd
like to play either.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:28:33 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 18:32:42 -0400 Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
>
>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
SNIP
>
>  What if you have counter rotating sections? Wouldn't that cancel out 
>the
>rotational inertia?
>
>

That would cancel out the gyroscopic effects.  All the other problems of
rotational energy are still there though.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:24:49 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Spin habs

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:54:49 -0700 shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson) writes:
>>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 17:32:52 -0400
>>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>>Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key
>...
>>Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to compensate
>>for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections rotating,
>>but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g) and all of
>>that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such a design
>>for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone else have
>>some ideas?

My take on this is to have individual sections, that all, one the ship is
under drive, are able to rotate slightly rearward.  The result of this is
to have the forward thrust and rotational acceleration add vectors, and
the section's rotation puts its floors perpendicular to that vector. 
This requires additional equipment, and its a pain.  It also creates a
problem if some section jams in one position or another.  A better method
is just to use the spin sections for something not required during major
maneuvers, like crew quarters.  Anyone in those sections during
acceleration would have webbing on the walls to help them move about, or
to relax in during said maneuvers.  Frankly, I dont think spin habs will
see much use on military ships, they get in the way.

>  Rather than having a ring, have independent ring segments attached
>by struts to an adjustable collar of some sort. This might be best as
>a warship configuration, as it means that the ring won't be totally
>disabled when part of it takes battle damage. The collar/hub would
>adjust to balance remaining segments when next spinning under those
>conditions.

The one problem with this is, as these take damage, their center of
gravity changes.  Even at low rotation rates, if the mass of the spin
habs is considerable, and I think its safe to assume they would, the
altered cg will start to put additional stress on the ship's structure. 
It wouldn't take long for cyclic fatigue to set in, and suddenly large
pieces start to come off...................

>
>  Preparing for combat would entail folding the segments down against 
>the hull for protection (and reduced profile, I guess). They could be
>rigged so that the folded position was perpendicular to the thrust
>axis.

Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress  on
the structure.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:02:49 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Deck Plans (was re:Azhanti High Lightning)

Joe Petit wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Another reason for perpendicular decks on small ships is that you'll need
> fewer decks, and in a small ship the elevators and/or stairwells comsume a
> reasonable proportion of your availible volume, so having only a few decks
> would help cut down this sort of wastage.

Elevators, stairwells, etc. are comparable to the volume taken up by long
hallways.  Architecturally speaking, its wasted space.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One thing I see on some small ship designs (a Solomani Patrol Corvette
from FASA's Adventure Class Ships, a Vargr Raider from one of the
later JTAS(?)) is a restriction on hallways. The Solomani ship doesn't
really have hallways at all - they hook things together with crew quarters
and maintenance spaces. The Vargr ship even uses one of the Airlocks
as an access route to another deck.

If it weren't for the two ungodly-long access corridors in the Empress 
Marava Far Trader, it would also be almost corridor-less - and considering 
how you almost have to go through the cargo bay to get from the crew
quarters to the bridge anyway, I think they could have done without those
corridors - like the Beowulf Free Trader.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:04:51 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Thu, 23 Apr 1998, james a clem wrote:

> Absolutely.  I generally allow players to die under very certain
> conditions.  One is the blatantly stoooopid move, especially after I've
> given several warnings as to the danger involved.  The other is when a
> player does something truly, but fatally, heroic, such as re-setting the
> reactor control rods _By_Hand_ to allow the rest of the group to escape. 
> He knows he's gonna get vaporized when the reactor finally blows, but it
> the kind of end players like (and myself as well).

That's the kind of action another player of my group did short ago. As a 
marine, he tried to stop a nebular being (or 'ghost') from attacking the
group 'civilians' by stepping in its way. I left him badly injured, but
alive, as this was his first heroic action. We both at first didn't know
if he would survive, when he came with that idea.


> Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
                                        ^^^^
which Lars do you mean? :-)

> dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:12:24 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ranks

Doug Berry writes:
>>>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
>>>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
>>>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
>>>and John J. Pershing (1976). 
>>
>>OB Traveller tie-in: If you were writing up General Marshall or General
>>Pershing, what numbers would you assign to those two ranks?
> 
>They're O-10's placed in a position of command.  If we're both Generals,
>but I'm in command of III Corps, and you're in command of 7th Army, you are
>incharge no matter what is on our collars.

OK, so those two ranks were not separate ranks and did not have their own
distinctions?
 
>In the US Army, there are three seperate rank positions held a the pay
>grade E-9: Sargeant-Major, Command Sargeent-Major, and Sargeant-Major of
>the Army.

OK, so you're saying that O1 to O10 are just pay scales and that General of
the Armies and General of the Army were both the same pay scale as General?  

BTW. does Sergeant-Majors, Command Sergeant-Majors and Sergeant-Major of
the Army have different distinctions?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:39:52 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Changing the background

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>fuel (as cargo) easier.  So if you want to go someplace without a jump
>station, you just jump in both the ship and the fuel to send it back.

Ah, I see. Yes, that's true. Again, so what? Or, to repeat the question I
posed above, can you give me a few examples of features in some published
Traveller material that is invalidated by the fact that laying out fuel
dumps would be easier? (Note that it just becomes easier; it has been
possible to lay out fuel depots since the first jump-1 ship was built).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The nearest stars to Terra are farther than Jump-1. Earth explorers used 
Jump-1 for intra-system jumps for a while, then made it to the nearest
star (and the Vilani mining station there) by using fuel depots. 


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:55:53 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: To tech or Not To Tech

J-man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
else too.  This last Voyager with the "Omega" particles was laughable. 
The entire Federation scared stiff over something slightly more potent
then an anti-matter bomb.  I felt it was overplayed.  They should have
had the Omega Molecule be something that destroyed parts of the
universe, in order to make it a real gut-wrenching threat.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

er, they weren't worried about the way it exploded - they were worried 
about the way the after-effects of the explosion made warp drive 
impossible for parsecs in every direction. No warp drive, no interstellar
travel, would the last planet into the Long Night please shut off the lights
and lock the doors...

Imagine I develop a bomb that makes jump-space entry/exit impossible
for an entire subsector, perhaps forever. Also imagine that the energy is
so unstable that me just researching it will probably set the bomb off.
Are you going to want me studying this thing in your Pocket Empire?


Walt Smith
- ------------------------------
"So how do these Heisenberg Compensators work?"
"Very well, thank you." - from an interview with G. Rodenberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:50:50 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: ship name

>>dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>>At 08:04 PM 4/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>hey guys... 
>>
>>i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
>>ship...
>
>Being White Stars, they ended in -ic.  Titanic, Olympic, and... damn.
>
>

No, Doug, that would end with "-it".  It can't be "damn"

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:26:32 -0500
From: "Andrew Akins" <igor@ames.net>
Subject: A New Free Trader

I've designed a new free trader for MTU, and it appears to be able to
generate a modest profit using the standard rules...especially if you got a
good crew performing speculative trading - but it should do okay on a good
freight route too...I'd appreciate any comments people have...

=========================================================
Iikauskhi class Free Trader

Designed by Udararuukin

Statistics
  Tons: 180std (SL Wedge Hypersonic).
  Volume: 2520m3.
  Mass (L/C nominal): 2278t/1000t.
  Dimensions: 42.5m x 29.2m x 12.2m.
  Size: 8.
  Crew: 3/4.
  Passengers High/Med: 0/6.
  Passengers Low/Emerg: 0/6.
  Troops/Science: 0/0.
  Frozen Watch: 0.
  Cargo: 90std (0/1 /Hdl:1x10ton).
  Price: 37.778MCr.
  Maintenance Points: 35.
  Tech Level: 12.

Electronics
  Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3xComp (CM:0.7 CP:1.43). No bridge.
  Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
  Base Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6mkm], 0MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 1MW).
  Science Sensors: None
  ECM: None
  Signatures: Vis: -0.5, IR: -0.5, Act: 0.5, Neu: -1, Grav: 0.

Weapons
  1xEmpty 42m turret (.75 MW available for weaponry).

Performance
  Jump: 1 (180std/pc fuel).
  Maneuver (L/C): 1/2.2 (/Thruster: 54MW).
  Contra Grav (L/C): 1/2.2 (37MW).
  Atmospheric (L/C): 1913kph/3643kph (/Crus:1435kph/2732kph).
  Power: 1 (/Fusion:94MW, 1yr).
  Fuel: 19 (/Scoop:5 /Purification: 12hr, 1MW).
  Accomodations: 0/9/1/6/0.
  Life Support: 40 (/Type:Standard, normal food. /Storage).
  G-Compensation: 2G.
  ESA: None.
  Sandcasters: None
  Damper Turrets: None
  Damper Screen: None
  Meson Screen: None
  Force Field: None
  Gravitics: None
  Armor: 10 [29]
  Structure: 10

Features
  2xAirlock.
  1xShip's Locker (0.09std).
  1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:4).
  1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:6).

Small Craft
  1xDocking Slip (2std air/raft).

Crew
  2xManeuver. 1xEngineering. 1xMedical.

Economic Profile (Yearly)
  Purchase Price: 37,777,887Cr
  Down Payment: 7,555,577Cr
  Charter Potential: 137,160Cr

Expenses         Full Load       80% Load       50% Load
Ship's Payment   1,967,598Cr    1,967,598Cr    1,967,598Cr
Maintenance         37,778Cr       37,778Cr       37,778Cr
Fuel                47,518Cr       47,518Cr       47,518Cr
Salaries           237,600Cr      237,600Cr      237,600Cr
Life Support       500,000Cr      450,000Cr      350,000Cr
Berthing             5,000Cr        5,000Cr        5,000Cr
Subtotal         2,795,494Cr    2,745,494Cr    2,645,494Cr

Income           Full Load       80% Load       50% Load
High Passage             0Cr            0Cr            0Cr
Middle Passage   1,200,000Cr    1,000,000Cr      600,000Cr
Low Passage        150,000Cr      125,000Cr       75,000Cr
Freight          2,160,000Cr    1,750,000Cr    1,100,000Cr
Speculative Cargo        0Cr            0Cr            0Cr
Mail                     0Cr            0Cr            0Cr
Subtotal         3,510,000Cr    2,875,000Cr    1,775,000Cr

Net Profit/Loss    714,506Cr      129,506Cr     -870,494Cr

PRESS RELEASE

With little fanfare, the first Iikasukhi free trader slipped out of
construction yard 76b earlier today. Designed for the independent trader,
the Iikasukhi is Udararuukin's newest trading ship. Low cost, reliability,
and excellent profit potential make the Iikasukhi the perfect choice for
free traders. Economic analysis shows that even without performing
speculative trading, the Iikasukhi can perform admirably. In the hands of an
experienced crew, devoting some or all of the large cargo bay to more
lucrative cargos, a tidy profit can be achieved.

While capable of carrying six passengers in second-class accomodations, and
another six in low berths, the Iikasukhi is a cargo vessel, with fifty
percent of its displacement devoted to a single large cargo bay. Gravtic
loading equipment is provided near the loading door, in the aft section of
the ship.

Crew accomodations are comfortable, with three small staterooms and a larger
suite stateroom. The suite can be used for the owner aboard, the captain, or
it can be split into a stateroom and office, to handle business matters. The
crew are separated from the passengers by a solid bulkhead, and a crew mess
is separate from the passenger galley. This improves anti-hijacking
security. For errands, a single air/raft is provided.

The ship carries a pair of RN-64b thruster plate assemblies, capable of
driving the ship at a solid 1G acceleration while fully loaded (2.2Gs
unloaded). A single Tvorak FarLeap II jump drive is connected to a custom
built fusion plant to provide jumpspace translation ability of one parsec.
The ship is streamlined, and mounts standard contra-gravitic systems to
facilitate atmospheric operations. The internal gravity compensators provide
upto 3Gs of inteneral gravity, while compensating upto 2Gs of acceleration.
The Iikasukhi is well suited to operations in the frontier, as it carries
its own fuel purification system to process unrefined fuel. Fuel scoops and
water intake valves are standard.

For defence, the ship mounts a single dorsal turret, capable of mounting any
standard 3ton weapon system. Available power is only .75MW, but in combat
situations the purifcation plant can be taken off line, freeing another
1.2MW of power.

The Iikasukhi can be comfortably operated by three individuals (pilot,
navigator, and engineer), with a medic recommended for passengers. In a
pinch, the ship can be flown by a single individual, altough such operation
is against Imperial regulations.

=========================================================

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:32:32 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: TML Searchable archives

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 09:01:48 -0700 Bruce Alan Macintosh 
(bmac@astro.ucla.edu) said:

>I would personally prefer not to see something like this; it means that
>(for example) the first thing anyone finds if they do a web search on
>"Bruce Macintosh" is a zillion TML entries - which might be unfortunate
>if a potential employer or grant reviewer is trying to find the web site
>with my actual astronomical work.
>
>To the extent that I hold the copyright on my articles (which I do) I'd
>prefer them not to be on the web except for specific articles that I've
>given permission for.
>
>I suppose a searchable archive set up so that automatic web engines only
>find the top layer might be OK.

This is what I had in mind - that the search would be done locally at 
the server, over files stored locally. 

Andy

- - -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- - -----------------------------------------
- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

iQA/AwUBNUWwQftKvbPYMVxkEQJ4awCg58+kyJAgvmgckzFOZcrVhURBn1kAoL9j
icvbGWwCoMipzZX4DWovOT4u
=2Jyp
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #442
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 443



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

GURPS Traveller playtest
Re: gas giant sizes?
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Weapon/Social modifiers
Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Ranks
First clones, then cellular anagathics, and now...
Weather in Space
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433
re: Traveller Trade: Intellectual Properties
Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
re- names needed for some pirate bands...
re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Sensor signatures for natural objects (slightly revised)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 9:46:48 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller playtest

Received this from the SJG Daily Illuminator:

> SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller -- Let the Playtest Commence!
> 
>     As of today ("Real Soon Now") the remaining chapters of the GURPS Traveller
>    first draft have been posted to the playtest site, and the first draft
>    is available for playtest, commentary, and dissection.
> 
>    The first files of the second GURPS Traveller release (tentatively titled
>    Behind the Claw: The Spinward Marches Sourcebook) have arrived, and we
>    expect to have it up by the end of the week.
> 
>    Pop over to the playtest site. We have room for more equipment descriptions
>    than I counted on originally, and your comments and suggestions on what
>    to include are welcome!
> 
>    -- Loren Wiseman

Two things:
1.	Finally, a Traveller publisher that posts things for playtesters...
2.	$15 a year to pay to be a playtester???  Ouch!


DonM.
- --
==========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior CM Specialist             dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems           (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                           (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War XXVI Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 5-7, 1999 =
= dmckinne@prairienet.org or winterwar@prairienet.org     (217) 469-9917 = 
==========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 08:21:47 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: gas giant sizes?

>>A quick question - is a "small gas giant"
>usually taken to mean something neptune-sized or something
>>saturn-sized? (Probably the former, I guess...)
>According to the WBH, SGGs run from a UWP size of 20 to 100, LGGs 110 to
>240, with an additional result of Brown Dwarf.

Thanks. The free-floating planet/brown dwarf models I have access to only
go down to Saturn mass, so I guess I'll have to do some interpolation.
(Especially because, as I think of it, small gas giants will be much more
likely to be ejected from a new solar system than big ones and hence will be
much more common.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 11:42:07 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:04:51 +0200 (MET DST) Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> writes:
>> Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem 
>till
>                                        ^^^^
>which Lars do you mean? :-)
>
>> dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
>
>

<Chuckle>  I didn't think about you when I chose Lars for that sig.  Pure
coincident.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:30:31 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

Anthony Jackson <ajackson@iii.com> says:

  Michael D. Peters writes:

  > Now let's have some ideas on mechanisms to allow spin sections to
  > compensate for thrust. Those B-5 ships look neat, with large spin sections
  > rotating, but once under thrust (if you have any thing above fractional g)

  > and all of that hull space becomes mostly useless. I've been working on such
  > a design for weeks and can't come up with an answer I really like. Anyone
  > else have some ideas?

  Well, rotating hull designs are a realistic or semi-realistic option, and under
  those circumstances you will probably either be using a short burst drive (for
  which period the hull gets locked down), or be using an extremely low thrust
  drive (.01 Gs or lower).  Another flaw of rotating hulls is that they act like
  immense gyroscopes, you better not want to turn while using rotational gravity.

It gets worse.  (oh, no, not the deadman's tumble again....)

If you build your rotating section wrong, it is unstable.  For an
object with three different moments of inertia, rotation about the
middle axis is unstable.

Example: Take a normal paperback book.  Put a rubber band around it,
to hold it closed.  Hold it with the spine in your left hand, and the
open side in your right.  Toss it in the air, spinning so that the
axis of rotation goes through the spine and the center of the book.
If it rotates more than a couple times, you'll probably catch it with
the spine in your _right_ hand, as the instability flips it over.


Now, this might be an interesting trick for a ship which needs to
reorient itself quickly, but I wouldn't want to try it (the contents
of the ship will get thrown around pretty badly).

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

On top of that, I always have headaches thinking about the interface
between the rotating and nonrotating sections, unless the rotating and
nonrotating sections are largely independant.  Try bringing water in
_and_ out of a rotating module.  Now add power.  Air.  All going
through this rotational interface.  That's a disaster waiting to
happen.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:43:11 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Weapon/Social modifiers

My PbEM group has just run into an interesting situation involving
weapons and Social status.  Here are the Social modifiers I have created
to allow Social to be modified by weapons.................

Revolver:  +1 Social
10mm+ bore:  +1 Social
Semi auto pistol:  +2 Social
Gauss weapon:  +3 Social
Shotgun:  +4 Social
Auto weapon:  +5 Social
Plasma/Fusion :  DO WHAT EVER YOU WANT!!!!  JUST DON'T SHOOT
ME!!!!!!!!!!!


<grin>


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:10:16 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Misjump and Normal space travel to return.

At 03:04 PM 4/28/98 +0200, you wrote:

>That's the kind of action another player of my group did short ago. As a 
>marine, he tried to stop a nebular being (or 'ghost') from attacking the
>group 'civilians' by stepping in its way. I left him badly injured, but
>alive, as this was his first heroic action. We both at first didn't know
>if he would survive, when he came with that idea.

I recently lost a long time Champions character, Gadget.  He had to act as
a living conduit, holding the ends of a severed power line for the machine
that was going to shut off the dimensional rift that was being used to
invade Earth.  We saved civilization, but Gadget died.  I'd played this
character off and on for nearly fifteen years, and the GM offered to give
me an out (he vanished in a flash of energy, nobody saw the body, one of
the Prime Movers intervenes and cures me, etc.,) but I decided that it was
a good heroic death.  The funeral is at this week's session.  Of course,
now I get to design a new hero.. heheheh..

R.I.P, Alan "Gadget" Davidson, founding member of the Guardians.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:00:47 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

At 11:45 PM 4/27/98 EDT, you wrote:
>One thing to note about those Earth Alliance B5 ships w/ the rotating
sections
>(the Omega Class Destroyers)... they're SLOW!  They've taken the slow
>approach.  Anyone who's tried B5 Wars from AOG knows what I mean.  Gravitic
>Drives (Minbari) literally fly circles around em...

That's why they kicked our butts.  Sheridan only defeated the Blackstar by
coming up with some very tricky tactics.

I still love Delenn's line from Season 3 to the Earth Alliance cruisers
attacking B5.  "The only Earth captain to ever defeat a Minbari warship is
behind me.  You are in front of me.  Be somewhere else."
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:19:26 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Ranks

At 03:12 PM 4/28/98 +0200, you wrote:

>OK, so those two ranks were not separate ranks and did not have their own
>distinctions?

General of the Army wore five stars arranged in a pentagon.  Generals were
four stars in a line.  They are both addressed as General, and both
received pay as an O-10 with however many years in service.

>BTW. does Sergeant-Majors, Command Sergeant-Majors and Sergeant-Major of
>the Army have different distinctions?

A Sergeant-Major is a senior NCO in an administrative position.  A Command
Sergeant Major is the senior NCO of a unit from battalion size on up the
Army level.  He is also your personal God.  Do not walk on the CSM's grass.
 CSMs run the Army.  They have over twenty years of service, and no
everyone and everything.

There is one Sergeant-Major of the Army (SMA).  He is the senior enlisted
man of the whole shebang, advising the Chief of Staff (the commander of the
US Army) on the needs of the enlisted men.  We recently had quite a scandal
when SMA gene McKinney was accused and court-martialed on sexual,
harassment charges (he was found guilty of one minor charge, and allowed to
retire.)

A Sergeant-Major wears three stripes, three rockers, with a star in the
middle.  A CSM wears the same, but with a wreath around the star.  The CSM
uses two stars.
- --

+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:20:23 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: First clones, then cellular anagathics, and now...

The following partial quote was taken from an article found today at

http://www.abcnews.com

Earth's biotech goes from TL8 to TL13(?) in one step...

(and you thought cyberpunk was weird)

*QUOTE*

Futuristic Medicine Now:  Heads Up For Transplants

By John McKenzie
ABCNEWS.com

   Transplanting organs from one body to another has become routine.
The liver, the kidney, the heart. Multiple transplants are more daring,
but they too are becoming more common.

    But what about getting it all? The complete package. Someone
else's whole body-attached to your head. 
    "A total body transplant," is how Dr. Robert White of Case
Western Reserve University describes it. "All of the organs, all
of extremities and so forth, brought in the form of a transplant." 
    It sounds like science fiction, but it isn't. The idea is to take
the functioning body of someone whose brain is dead and attach it
to the head of someone whose body is dying, someone experiencing
multiple organ failure. 
    "I'm talking about a procedure that could actually be done with
appropriate practice and the safeguards," says White, "I don't want to
say tomorrow, but certainly within the year." 

Monkeys First 
    In fact, doctors have already performed total body transplants on
monkeys. A team of neurosurgeons at Case Western in Cleveland
developed the elaborate procedure.

<snippage of procedure details>

     While total body transplants show just how far surgeons have
come in manipulating the body, they have yet to figure out how to
reconnect the spinal cord. So for now, patients undergoing this
operation would not be able to move their new bodies. But with
spinal chord research developing so rapidly, many scientists
expect that problem can be overcome. 

*END QUOTE*

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:40:06 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Weather in Space

The following article, found at http://abcnews.com
started me thinking about minor intrasystem events
events that could affect inbound/outbound spaceships
and starships. The TML has discussed stellar flares
and the article adds another event. Can anybody add
anything else that could add color to a system-wide
"weather bulletin" that would be considered an
annoyance rather than an overwhelming danger?


Meteroids Threaten Satellites

By Jane E. Allen
The Associated Press
M A N H A T T A N   B E A C H, Calif., April 27 - In
November, the Earth's atmosphere will be hit with
the most severe meteor shower in 33 years, a
bombardment of debris that could damage or
destroy some of the nearly 500 satellites that
provide worldwide communications, navigation and
weather-watching. 
    The debris consists only of particles-some thinner than a
hair and most no larger than a grain of sand-but they are
hurtling through space so fast that they can have the
destructive power of a .22-caliber bullet. 
    As a result, about 200 commercial and military satellite
operators, insurers and scientists began brainstorming here
today about what they can do to prepare, such as turn off
spacecraft or turn them away from the stream of particles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:58:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #433

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>Central Supply Catalog, Psionics Institute, Pocket Empires, Emperor's
>Arsenal, Alien Achieve, and Milieu:0 Campaign are all worth a look.  Avoid
>at all cost any of the adventures, except maybe The Long Way Home/Gateway.
>Do not look upon Starships or First Survey, lest thine eyes fry from horror.

Likewise avoid the Annililik Run and Missions of State (sorry Martin/Joe
but your damn fine scenarios don't make up for the rest).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:01:28 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Traveller Trade: Intellectual Properties

Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com> wrote:

>Has anyone done any work with speculating in intelectual properties between
>stars?  I'd think this might be potentially more lucrative than carrying
>cargo, especially if you're going for distance.  It may be that this is all
>tied up in the x-boat routes, but I'm dealing with a campaign that's pretty
>far of the mains.
>
>It's not like we're talking about anything that has any mass.
>Possible Cargoes:
>Publishing rights to entertainments: Books, films (holovids?), music, etc.
>Publishing rights to technical journals.
>Patent Licensing rights for processes.

There are a set of cargo hooks/plots in BITS 101 Cargos (2nd Edition) that
revolve around Intellectual property. JTAS25 had the cargos from 1st
edition.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:51:21 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>You might try me at :
>
>j-man@iname.com
>j-man@ix.netcom.com
>jman@orionsys.com
>jman037@geocities.com
>jman037@freeyellow.com
>jman037@hotmail.com

Ouch! If Phil is feeling nasty look forward to 12Mb data next time you log on!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:03:19 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

 J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:

>Actually, I think we should debate the topic of PIRATES again...<smirk>

Pirates in Fighters, please! ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:07:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> I still love Delenn's line from Season 3 to the Earth Alliance cruisers
> attacking B5.  "The only Earth captain to ever defeat a Minbari warship is
> behind me.  You are in front of me.  Be somewhere else."
> --

I thought it went "The only Earth captain to ever defeat a Mimbari warship
is benind me.  You are in front of me.  If you wish to survive, be
elsewhere."

Delenn was a tough old bird.  Gotta love her.

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:32:32 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 09:00:47 -0700 dberry@hooked.net writes:

>I still love Delenn's line from Season 3 to the Earth Alliance cruisers
>attacking B5.  "The only Earth captain to ever defeat a Minbari warship is
>behind me.  You are in front of me.  Be somewhere else."--


Lets keep the line correct, its much better that way.....

- -----You are in front of me.  If you wish to remain alive, then you will
be somewhere else..............


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:24:22 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

NAAAHAHHHHH!!!!!!!    Pirates in Fighters launching C-PLUS
ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM


On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:03:19 +0100 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
writes:
> J-Man <j-man@iname.com> wrote:
>
>>Actually, I think we should debate the topic of PIRATES 
>again...<smirk>
>
>Pirates in Fighters, please! ;-)
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
>notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
>just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
>invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
>--Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --
>
>
>

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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:26:12 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: re- names needed for some pirate bands...

hi guys,

rember those notes i told you about getting lost?

well i lost my list of Pirate Bands and their Star Ships... 

please i am not trying to start any flame wars this time...  i just need some
names....

thanks,
richard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:26:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

No, no, no...

Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks, at drop-tank equipped
convoy escorts!!


Walt Smith
- ------------------------------
The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:10:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Sensor signatures for natural objects (slightly revised)

Changes from previous version:
	-added small gas giants
	-removed radar signature for gas giants (gas giants absorb radar)
	-added rules for minerology/"prospecting"

Executive summary: 
Detection ranges in an empty hex for a "typical"
sensor (PEMS-13, AEMS-11) are as follows:

Object                  Passive Range           Active Range 
200-m iceball           50,000 km               500,000 km
Small Gas Giant         100 AU                  -----
        (1 billion years old)
Small Gas Giant         3 AU                    -----   
        (5 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         3000 AU                 -----
        (1 billion years old)
Large Gas Giant         300 AU                  -----
        (5 billion years old)

Small military sensors (PEMS-13.5) multiply ranges by x3; big military
or science sensors multiply range by x10. These imply that almost all
large gas giants will have been charted by the Imperium but that small
gas giants will often have escaped detection.




In more detail, here are signatures on the FFS2 scale for all these
objects:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Rocky asteroid          +0.5            +0.0            +0.5 
        (habitable zone)
Rocky asteroid          +1.0            +1.5            +0.5 
        (inner zone)
Rocky asteroid          -0.5            -2.0 *          +0.5 
        (outer zone)
Rocky asteroid          -2.5            -5.5 *          +0.5 
        (Oort cloud or empty hex)

C-type asteroid         +0.0            +0.0            +0.5
        (habitable zone)
C-type asteroid         +0.5            +1.5            +0.5
        (inner zone)
C-type asteroid         -1.0            -2.0 *          +0.5
        (outer zone)
C-type asteroid         -3.0            -5.5 *          +0.5
        (Oort cloud or empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using passive/IR.

Rocky asteroids are greyish (albedo 0.2 - 0.3). 
C-type asteroids are dark asteroids (albedo 0.05) mostly consisting of 
carbon compounds.
Comet nucleii and Kuipter belt objects roll 1d6; on 1 use the rocky
asteroid values, on 2-4 use the C-type values, on 5-6 use c-type with an
additional -1 to visible signature. (Ice exposed to cosmic rays becomes
extremely dark.) 


These values assume a 1-m radius asteroid. For larger or smaller asteroids
use the following modifiers:

Asteroid Size modifiers:
Asteroid Radius         Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
1 m                     -2.0            -2.0            -1.0
10 m                    -1.0            -1.0            -0.5
100 m                    0.0             0.0            +0.0
1 km                    +1.0            +1.0            +0.5    
10 km                   +2.0            +2.0            +1.0
100 km                  +3.0            +3.0            +1.5


For people who want to do prospecting, a detailed mineralogical scan 
requires a second roll at the original detection difficulty, +2 
difficulty levels for a non-science sensor, and 1 full 30-minute turn
in which the sensor looks only at the target.

(In more precise DSR terms, scanning for minerals 
reduces the signature by 2 points and requires a roll on the usual 
detection table, at +2 difficulty levels for a non-science sensor. 
Note that the reduction of 2 points is usually offset by the 
tracking-already-detected target modifier (+1.5) and the scanning-a-single-
arc modifier (+1.0))



Gas giants in empty hexes or Oort clouds use the following chart:

Object                  Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +3.5 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Small Gas Giant         +2.0            +2.0 *          **
        (0.05 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Large Gas Giant         +3.0            +4.0 *          **
        (1 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +6.0            **
        (5 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Very Large Gas Giant    +3.0            +5.0 *          **
        (5 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +8.0            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 1 billion years old, empty hex)
Brown Dwarf             +3.0            +7.5            **
        (40 jupiter mass, 5 billion years old, empty hex)

* indicates that science-grade sensors get an additional +0.5 to 
detect these objects using Passive/IR.

** gas giant planets and brown dwarfs have radar signature sufficiently
low that they have not yet been measured from the Earth, and I'm not sure
how to calculate them; in all practical circumstances the target would be
detected visually or in the infra-red first. Some gas giants may have
moons or rings (active signature +0.5 to +4.0) that will be detectable
instead. (Roll 11+ on 2d6 to have reatined a moon, +1 for large gas
giants and +2 for very large; roll 1d6/2 for the moon's active signature.) 

Small gas giant numbers are extrapolations due to the lack of evolutionary
tracks for objects below Saturn's mass.



Detection can be calculated using the Definitive Sensor Rules (available
on the web or via email.) In essence, one adds the sensor sensitivity
(from FFS2 or the conversion notes in the DSR) to the target signature
and subtracts the range to calculate the "signal":

Signal = Sensitivity + Signature - Range + modifiers

and then compares to the following chart:
SIGNAL  active detection        passive detection
        task                    task
<0      (target cannot be detected under any circumstances)
0       Impossible              Impossible
0.5     Average                 Staggering (TNE: Formidable)
1.0     (automatic detection)   Average
1.5                             Easy
2.0                             (automatic detection.)

Ranges are taken from the following chart:

Range:                                                          RANGE
km                      BL Hexes        T4 name T4.1 name       term
<=500                                           regional        8
<=1,600                                                         8.5
<=5,000                                         continental     9
<=16,000                0                                       9.5
<=50,000                1-2                     planetary       10
<=160,000               3-5             VS                      10.5
<=500,000               6-16            S       far orbit       11
<=1,600,000             17-50           M                       11.5
<=5,000,000             51-160          L                       12
<=16,000,000            161-500                                 12.5
<=50,000,000            501-1600                                13
<=160,000,000   1 AU                                            13.5
<=500,000,000   3 AU                            interplanetary  14
<=1,600,000,000 10 AU                                           14.5
<=5,000,000,000 30 AU                           outsystem       15
<=16,000,000,000  100 AU                                        15.5
<=50,000,000,000  300 AU                        oort            16
<=500,000,000,000 3000 AU                                       17
30000 AU                                                        18
100000 AU (1/2 parsec)                                          18.5
1 parsec                                                        19
3 parsec                                                        19.5
10 parsec                                                       20.0

So, for example, a typical scout (Sensitivity=13.0) scanning for a 
rocky asteroid (passive (vis) signature = 0.5) at a range of 1 AU would
have a signal of (13.0) + (0.5) - 13.5 = 0.0, for an 
Impossible task to detect the asteroid.

A labship with a science-grade PEMS-14 looking for old gas giants in an
empty hex would have a signal of 14.0 (sensor) + 0.5 (empty hex science bonus) 
+ 4.5 (signature with science bonus) - 19 (range) = 0.5, a Staggering
task.

Remember the following modifiers to sensor sensitivity (taken from
the most recent version of the DSR) based on sensor location:

Sensor Location         Passive/Vis     Passive/IR      Active
Inner zone              -0.5            -0.5             0.0
Habitable zone           0.0             0.0             0.0
Outer zone              +0.5            +0.0             0.0
Oort cloud/empty hex    +1.0            +0.0 (normal)    0.0
                                        +0.5 (sci-grade)

(The full DSR also includes modifiers for long scans (1 day) and for
scanning only a single arc, which if combined allow a +1.0 for taking
2 weeks to do a scan.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #443
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, April 28 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 444



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

frequency of gas giants in otherwise-empty hexes
Re: 3 Black Book Titles + Basic Categories
Re: Ranks
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Ranks
Re: Spin habs
Re: To tech or Not To Tech
Re: Changing the background
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?
Re: Jump drive once again
Re: Ranks
Re: re- help on finding a ship name
re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
re: Spin habs
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Weapon/Social modifiers
Re: re- names needed for some pirate bands...
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
A question about Plasma Guns 
Re: A question about Plasma Guns
Berthing Costs
Insidious Atmoshperes
Re: A New Free Trader
Re: Berthing Costs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:16:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: frequency of gas giants in otherwise-empty hexes

Personally, I think they should be fairly common, but that messes up the
maps and canon, so I would suggest something like:

Roll 1d6 for each hex. If the roll is less than the usual target number 
to place a star in that hex (6+ for rift, 4+ for normal hexes, etc.) roll
another d6. If the second roll is 6, a rogue body is present.
Roll 2d6 and consult the following table:
2-10    Small Gas Giant
11      Large Gas Giant
12      Very Large Gas Giant

All VLGGs will have been charted (but are generally hard to refuel from.) 
All Large Gas Giants will be charted inside a well-established civilized    
area (in the Third Imperium, this mostly occured during the the Second Survey.)
Small Gas Giants will only be charted in well-surveyed areas on a roll of 10+  
on 2d6, +1 for every type A starport in adjacent hexes.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:30:47 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: 3 Black Book Titles + Basic Categories

What is the Alexandria Project?

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
> I want to reorganize the Traveller Alexandria Project,
> with categories based on the titles of the 3 basic LBBs
> plus section headings in the rulebooks.  I am thinking
> of something like this:
>
> Character
> Combat
> Equipment
> Ship
> Vehicle
> World
> Psionics
> Adventure
> Program
>
> Can anyone add categories from the rulebooks or/book
> titles?  I want this to be generic, so I won't add
> elements of adventure titles (e.g. Squadron).
>
> Thanks,
> Rob
> eaglesto@nortel.com



- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:53:55 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Ranks

Doug Berry wrote:

> A Sergeant-Major wears three stripes, three rockers, with a star in the
> middle.  A CSM wears the same, but with a wreath around the star.  The CSM
> uses two stars.

It's three up, FOUR down w/ the appropriate doohickey in the middle (it's an
Eagle,Globe and Anchor for the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, a bursting
bomb for Master Gunnery Sgt, and a star for a Sergeant Major). All are E-9,
but I've heard something about a "billet bonus."  I'm sure that the Commandant
of the Marine Corps gets more than a 'regular' four star. Commandant of the
Marine Corps is a four star general.  There's a badge worn on the left breast
that is the insignia of Commandant.  I'd suspect the same thing for Chairman
of the JCS, etc.


Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 15:53:49 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

No, you're all wrong... i just happen to have my tape of that right at the
beginning of the battle...  She says "Why not, only one human captain has ever
survived battle w/ a Minbari Fleet. He is behind me. You are in front of me.
If you value your lives, be somewhere else."

Anyways,  Is Full Thrust Traveller still coming out?  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:13:06 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ranks

At 03:53 PM 28/04/98 EDT, Gary wrote:
>Doug Berry wrote:
>
>> A Sergeant-Major wears three stripes, three rockers, with a star in the
>> middle.  A CSM wears the same, but with a wreath around the star.  The CSM
>> uses two stars.
>
>It's three up, FOUR down w/ the appropriate doohickey in the middle (it's an
>Eagle,Globe and Anchor for the Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps, a bursting
>bomb for Master Gunnery Sgt, and a star for a Sergeant Major). All are E-9,
>but I've heard something about a "billet bonus."  I'm sure that the Commandant
>of the Marine Corps gets more than a 'regular' four star. Commandant of the
>Marine Corps is a four star general.  There's a badge worn on the left breast
>that is the insignia of Commandant.  I'd suspect the same thing for Chairman
>of the JCS, etc.

The most complicated we get is three stripes and a crown for a Staff
Sergeant. After that they have wrist bands that are bothersomely difficult
to see if the wearer is moving or behind a desk, etc.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 12:29:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Spin habs

>Date: Mon, 27 Apr 1998 23:29:49 -0400
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
...
>>  Rather than having a ring, have independent ring segments attached
>>by struts to an adjustable collar of some sort. This might be best as
>>a warship configuration, as it means that the ring won't be totally
>>disabled when part of it takes battle damage. The collar/hub would
>>adjust to balance remaining segments when next spinning under those
>>conditions.
...
>I thought of this, based in part on a 2300 ship (name eludes me at the
>moment) design. I like the idea a lot, however the "joint" for the strutt is
>a real b*#$h. I ran several cad models but couldn't come up with a design
>that would allow access when the strutt was folded, or it was entirely to
>massive to be practical. It would probably be ok for a VERY large ship, but
>not for the early exploration vehicle I'm looking for.

  I've seen the 2300 AD artwork, and probably copied it from there. IIRC,
a similar arrangement might be used on some small centrifuges; I could
be thinking of something else, though.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 13:50:56 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or Not To Tech

> er, they weren't worried about the way it exploded - they were worried 
> about the way the after-effects of the explosion made warp drive 
> impossible for parsecs in every direction. No warp drive, no interstellar
> travel, would the last planet into the Long Night please shut off the lights
> and lock the doors...
> 
> Imagine I develop a bomb that makes jump-space entry/exit impossible
> for an entire subsector, perhaps forever. Also imagine that the energy is
> so unstable that me just researching it will probably set the bomb off.
> Are you going to want me studying this thing in your Pocket Empire?
> 


No, but in the star trek thing, I'm sure there is another way to travel
FTL without Warp.  In the various episodes, we have seen other types of
propulsion that are more efficient then warp.  Heck, if I was the
federation, I'd develope the new FTL tech then shoot off a bunch of
Omega Bombs in BORG space.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:00:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
>>And that is part of what I keep pointing out to people that claim that
>>have dealt with all the ramification of changing jump drives to
>>displacement mass theory, or introducing jump torps, or allowing drop
>>tanks (and why these are so ill considered). You simply can't know all the
>>ramifications and you are simply introduces a source of yet more
>>ramifications that will need their own "patches" in the future, making the
>>background  more and more a hokey patchwork of things that all just happen
>>to work a certain way.

>Not if the change is to a simpler concept.


Well, maybe.  Except if the ramifications to the background are
complex, then it isn't simple.  Besides, I don't see any of the
changes that I have opposed as being simpler (or even as simple)
as the original.

> Besides, I'm not (in this case)
>advocating a change but the retention of an already-existing feature.

Well, lets be clear, they are, in fact, a later addition.  And
they also are some thing where you either have to arbitrarily limit
their consequences or introduce greater changes than simply removing
them.

>Besides, drop tanks does not
>change the fundamentals of space travel.

Well, I couldn't disagree more, but I've already said why.  I will just
note the your arguements that it won't change the fundamentals also
runs up against the point you yourself have argued, that you can
never know all the ramifications when you first write something.

>Eliminating the need for all ships everywhere to carry their own fuel would
>be a fairly big change, I suppose (though not nearly as big as, say,
>requiring them to travel in convoy in order to protect them from enemy
>raiders),

Much bigger.

> but that is not the case. It only works for ships whose route
>never touches a star system without drop tank facilities.

Which there would be great incentive to put along all significant
trades routes (which would tend to group travel into certain
routes which would be a big change, in and of itself).

>>But I guess we will have to let other make up their own minds as we aren't
>>going to convince each other.

>Tell you what. Give me a few examples of features in some published Traveller
>material that is invalidated by the logical ramifications of the existence of
>drop tanks.

I have.  The need to carry jump fuel.  I have also said at some length
why I think this is a big change.

>>>the interactions of worlds were different (You put that rather neatly).

>>Well, no.  The rebellion presented a setting in which the _motivations_
>>for interaction are different.

>Wow! That one deserves to be nominated for the World Hairsplitting
>Championship. If the motivations change, so does the basis for interaction.
>In the rebellion the entire basis for the interaction of worlds were
>different from the Classic Era.

Its only splitting hairs if you assume that you view is the right one.  
It has been argued im historical fields that it is a mistake to focus 
on things like political (and often petty) motivations and who is 'in
charge' when these are often just symptoms of more fundamental changes
(or the lack thereof).  Yet all I've gotten from you on this is attempts
to ridicule my points.  In the end this is peripheral point and I 
see no reason to keep having to deal with this.  

>>Not as big or expensive as they were before.
>
>Exactly as big and expensive as before. The cost of cargo space is the same
>as the cost of fuel tankage.  Indeed, the fuel cost is increased with drop
>tanks (Quite significantly increased, in fact, if you go by the true costs);
>it's only the per item (freight and passengers) cost that drops

Which is exactly the point.  I find the idea that "ships aren't smaller,
the just can do what it took bigger ships to do" to be truly splitting
hairs.

>What new technologies? Drop tanks are already a part of the existing
>background.

They are a late, poorly integrated and poorly thought out additions
to the existing background.

>>I never said it wasn't.  I just said it wasn't a fundamental
>>change to the basis of the setting.
>
>I notice that you ignored the small list of fundamental changes the
>Rebellion would mean to a Classic Era campaign.

Hogwash.  I pointed out the fundamental disagreement that was
the basis for them all.

[Much deletion of redundant points....]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:11:40 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

> >Actually, I think we should debate the topic of PIRATES again...<smirk>
> 
> Pirates in Fighters, please! ;-)
> 
> Dom
> 


Naah, Pirates in Light Sale craft...:)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:13:33 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Armageddon Playtesters?

> Ouch! If Phil is feeling nasty look forward to 12Mb data next time you log on!
> 
> Dom

not really..most servers only keep up to 2megs, at least I've never been
able to send any attachments bigger..

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:24:05 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Jump drive once again

Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:49:55 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> >The bottom line is that these don't appear to be consistently thought out
 
> Any more than a lot of the rest of the Traveller background, but you don't
> seem inclined to throw that away. Getting rid of something should be a
> last resort.
>
> >and nothing really depends on them.

> That's not the point when it comes to already-established elements.

I wouldn't agree at all.  They were poorly throught out when they
were introduced and the reason nothing depends on them is that
thy have gotten no development in the background afte the initial
introduction.  They have been mostly ignored and I suggest we
keep that up until they are forgotten.

> The
> question in that case is, do they conflict with anything else. So far
> you've failed to come up with anything.

Well, from my point of view you have failed to show how they can
do anything but cause conflicts.  However, perhaps the best way
to discuss things is not simply dismiss points of view we don't
agree with.

> I think I have to change my mind and agree with you. If you can delay jump
> for several hours after the fuel has been expended, then some sort of link
> to jumpspace must exist, and it must be able to remain linked to the ship
> while it moves in real space.

Well, I was mostly pointing out that this is one possible intrepretation
of what has been written.

>  That sounds more like an energy field than
> a bubble of hydrogen. OK. What I propose now is that the fuel is burnt,
> but that the energy from that is not stored in the capacitors. Rather, it
> is dumped directly into jumpspace and builds up a field _almost_ to the
> threshold. Then the capacitors discharge a final (comparatively small)
> burst of carefully controlled energy and puts the ship over the threshold.
> If the final discharge is not made, the jump field slowly dissipates over
> time. How's that?

Well, fine except for the issue of drop tanks and being able to jump
from
external fuel which I feel represents a major change to the background.
One would also have either figure the field needs to go up all at once
or wonder why people don't by smaller reactors and just take a few
hours to jump (since you are going to be at it a week anyway).

> Which means it improves less than 2% over those 7 TLs (Otherwise it would
> affect the fuel needed for jump-6 ships). Compare that to the improvement
> in the related field of ordinary fusion reactors and you will see that
> you're splitting hairs again.

Hardly.  As I pointed out in text you deleted, it is not unusual for
technologies to be fundamentally limited (especially ones that involve
some trick like a high throughput device might).  I may be that the
Imperium
is going to better high throughput reactors by the most reasonable
route available, improving ordinary reactors until the day comes that
they can take over from them.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:32:28 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Ranks

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 13:36:52 -0400, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
wrote:

>Jeff Zeitlin writes:

>>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
>>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
>>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
>>and John J. Pershing (1976). 

>OB Traveller tie-in: If you were writing up General Marshall or General
>Pershing, what numbers would you assign to those two ranks?

Classic Book 1/2/3 rank would be 6; Book 4/MT/TNE/T4 rank would be O11 for
Marshall (five-star rank), O12 for Pershing ("six star" rank).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:16:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: re- help on finding a ship name

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

>>i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
>>Titanic's sister ships..

>Being White Stars, they ended in -ic.  Titanic, Olympic, and...
>
>damn.

Britannic?

Unless of course you mean White Star 1, White Star 2, White Star
3........... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:37:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>Hello,
>>All we need now is a good discussion of the Tech Level of the Rule of Man...
>>anyone care to start?
>
>  Not one, but TWO gluttons for punishment! :)
>
>Terra TL and the Long Night:

Dear Steven,

Please could you point me in the direction of Harold and Leroy and the TL
of the RoM debate. I, and fellow members of the Historic TML flamewar
re-enactment society wish to join in this most classic of exchanges.
Following the casting of our runes, and using the magical psionic items
discovered when we played 'the Annililik Run', we believe that we have
important new information that will decisively solve the debate one way or
the other.

Yours faithfully,

Dominic

"Seek, locate, agitate" (Militant Dalek)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:10:53 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Spin habs

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>  Preparing for combat would entail folding the segments down against
>the hull for protection (and reduced profile, I guess). They could be
>rigged so that the folded position was perpendicular to the thrust
>axis.

Hmm. Maybe you could get the French to build it and call it the 'Suffren'. :-)

Actually, one of the things about B5 that irritates me is the way that the
Omega class Destroyers don't rip themselves apart when the habitat is hit
and goes out of balance catastrophically. If you watch the CGI none of them
do that...

Dom

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:47:55 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

> Anyways,  Is Full Thrust Traveller still coming out?

What is full thrust?

- --
Robert the Lonely

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Corridor/4467/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:56:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Weapon/Social modifiers

james a clem wrote:

> My PbEM group has just run into an interesting situation involving
> weapons and Social status.  Here are the Social modifiers I have created
> to allow Social to be modified by weapons.................
>
> Revolver:  +1 Social
> 10mm+ bore:  +1 Social
> Semi auto pistol:  +2 Social
> Gauss weapon:  +3 Social
> Shotgun:  +4 Social
> Auto weapon:  +5 Social
> Plasma/Fusion :  DO WHAT EVER YOU WANT!!!!  JUST DON'T SHOOT
> ME!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats an interesting work around.  Although, wouldn't it be easier to use
the weapon as a modifier to a default skill roll for Intimidation?
Otherwise, it looks like a weapon could modify other Social Standing derived
skills; it just looks wrong.  Also, what about the guy who doesn't carry a
gun but has his henchmen point theirs?  Taken together, I would use
Intimidation as a default skill modified by total number of henchmen (or
difference in number between two groups) + total modifiers for weapons (or
difference in those totals for each group, if the guns aren't out yet).

"You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a gun
alone."
- -Al Capone

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:59:02 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: re- names needed for some pirate bands...

RSpake2064 wrote:

> hi guys,
>
> rember those notes i told you about getting lost?
>
> well i lost my list of Pirate Bands and their Star Ships...
>

I'm not sure what you're talking about, to be honest, but there's a new book out
about the history of piracy.  Sorry, don't have a title, but I think its gor
"Black Flag" in the title.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 17:47:09 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
To: 'TML' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 2:45 PM
Subject: re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans


>No, no, no...
>
>Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks, at drop-tank equipped
>convoy escorts!!
>
>
>Walt Smith
>------------------------------
>The mome rath hasn't been born that can outgrabe me!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:09:21 +0100
From: colin black <colin.black@virgin.net>
Subject: A question about Plasma Guns 

Does anyone have any idea on whether incoming fire from plasma guns
 could be intercepted by point defense weapons?
Emperor's Arsenal says that plasma bolts are contained in a
"meta-stable" magnetic field during flight, and that on impact this
field collapses releasing the energy.
Doesn't a powerful laser pulse generate an EM field in an atmosphere,
if so would a PD laser,such as those in Emperor's Arsenal, be adequate?
could this field rupture the magnetic bottle causing the bolt to 
dissipate prematurely?
How about a hail of superdense gauss slugs?
I can't find a minimum size for ESA generators or accumulators in
FF&S2, perhaps 20mm gauss rounds containing  ESA generators and 
high density accumulators (zuchai crystals anyone!) might do the
trick!
Apologies in advance if the whole question is daft, spring has finally
arrived in my little corner of Scotland, Hurrah!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:30:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: A question about Plasma Guns

I only have the old stuff. Striker describes the weapons (plasma and fusion
guns) as generating the gas bolt in the weapon, and releasing it. From that
inference, I imagine the bolt as being a blob of plasma inside that mag bottle
inside the gun. The mag bottle is ruptured (only at the exhaust nozzle-muzzle)
when the trigger is pulled-pushed-depressed(whatever). This releases the
plasma in a stream. I would not think that this can be intercepted anymore
than a laser beam or pulse can. OTOH, I'm sure that there is some Physics PhD
out there who will say that it can be....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:01:40 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Berthing Costs

During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:01:40 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Insidious Atmoshperes

My players have landed on Wypoc/Lanth.  The world is listed as having 
an insidious atmosphere and a 40% "water" coverage.  What can they 
expect to find in these oceans?


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:57:39 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

Hiya everyone. One thing did jump out at me:

>   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).

Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter? 
IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface 
area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine. 
:)

Just my 2 cents,

Bob Kondrk
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ USA
dss2@erols.com

Webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 16:45:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Pearson Publishing wrote:

> During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
> per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
> to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
> they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
> couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?

Actually Life Support also includes all the storage/dumping/recycling of
wastes, food, drink, heating, cooling, removing CO2 and other undesirable
gases from the atmosphere, keeping the ship from smelling like an old
sneaker, etc etc. Oxygen is actually a _small_ part of the total.

You are in a _completely_ closed system, particularly during those weeks
you spend in Jumpspace...think submarine without being able to vent out to
the sea.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #444
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 445



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Changing Constants?
Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
Grav Vehicle Flight ceilings
RE: Ranks
DGP's Traveller Digests 1 & 2
Spin habs in combat
Re: GURPS Traveller playtest
Re: A New Free Trader
Spin habs (sorta)
Re: A New Free Trader
Brain transplants
RE: Insidious Atmospheres
Trav mini's
Re: A New Free Trader
Re: Changing the background
re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution
100 diameter stations
Re: Changing the background
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Insidious Atmoshperes
Piracy Reference
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #444
Re: To tech or Not To Tech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 01:29 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Changing Constants?

Moin Leonard Erickson,

	I recall that the grand universal theory, predicted that C is not
	a constant, but that its increasing thogether with the expanding
	universe. I have to dig out the old Vilani library reference ;-)

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:04:02 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 6:16 AM
Subject: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra


>Hello,
>>All we need now is a good discussion of the Tech Level of the Rule of Man...
>>anyone care to start?
>
>  Not one, but TWO gluttons for punishment! :)
>
>Terra TL and the Long Night:
> Remember, the third time might get you the real thing :)
>
>        Steven Hudson
>
Well Steve, I have proof that the RoM was definately at or above TL25 at the
time of the Night Fall. The only reason that the RoM fell at all was that
the Terra Suoerbrains were flat out bored with playing with the "lesser
beings".

What? What proof you say... Well, I really can't tell you it's from
something (insert name-drop-of-your choice) told me in confidence. However,
you can take my word for it.... Really!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 20:48:27 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Grav Vehicle Flight ceilings

Joseph R. Dietrich asks:

>Question, sirs:
?
>IYTUs, what are the flight ceilings of grav vehicles. Are all grav-powered
>vehicles capable of near orbital altitudes? IIRC, this is insinuated if not
>outright stated in several Traveller sources. When I look at DGP's 101
>Vehicles, there are several designs that are explicitly stated to be
>capable of near orbital (and even interplanetary) journeys: examples
>include the Strike-it-Rich prospector's bubble, the Planet-Hopper grav
>sedan, the Tachcel hypergrav transport and the Hermes grav landing shuttle.
>
>However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
>capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
>"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?
>
>So I ask -- is there a hard-and-fast ruling to this, or is it up to referee
>discretion? I canna' remember what FF&S says!

My opinion is that the open Air raft could indeed make it to orbit, if the
driver had a vacc suit and didn't care much about the obvious dangers.

A relevant analogy: The WWII ampibious vehicle know as the Seep (sea  jeep)
was perfectly capable of crossing the Atlantic. Two GIs drove one across as a
publicity stunt after the war was over. With perfect conditions and real ship
to follow along behind with spare gasoline cans, it was doable. It is not a
good thing to try at home...

I don't know if anyone ever tried the same trick with the seaborne 2.5-ton
truck (the DUKW), but that sucker could have carried enough fuel in barrels in
the back to make it across without help -- and it would still have been a bad
idea.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:03:11 -0700
From: "Makens, Brian" <brian.makens@plpt.com>
Subject: RE: Ranks

> >Jeff Zeitlin writes:
> 
> >>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
> >>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
> >>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
> >>and John J. Pershing (1976). 
> 
	Interesting alleged historical oddity. Pershing was jacked up in rank, because
	the American Expeditionary Force was under the operational umbrella
	of the French Army and Marshal Foch as Front Commander. Given
	certain French practices, like using field artillery on your own troops to "encourage"
	them and decimation punishment, Pershing was given rank comparable to
	a Marshal, so he could better "decline" an order from Foch,
	if he thought the order was not in the interest of the U.S. or its army.

	Added to the fact that Pershing and Foch "DISLIKED" each other from
	first contact, and it was probably a good thing for keeping the Amercan troops
	from becoming expendable cannon fodder for the french.

	So in Traveller canon, does the Vegan Automonous Region have to jack up
	its Admirals' ranks when manuevering with all those Imperial Grand Admirals in
	the Rebellion?

	BJM

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:25:55 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: DGP's Traveller Digests 1 & 2

Anybody know where I can get a copy of DGP's
Traveller Digests #1 & #2?

Please reply to my work email address of
David.Smart@ons.octel.com

By the way, I've received some of the BITS
101 series. This stuff is as good as anything
DGP has put out. If you can, buy it!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:35:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Spin habs in combat

>>  Rather than having a ring, have independent ring segments attached
>>by struts to an adjustable collar of some sort. This might be best as
...
>The one problem with this is, as these take damage, their center of
>gravity changes.  Even at low rotation rates, if the mass of the spin
>habs is considerable, and I think its safe to assume they would, the
>altered cg will start to put additional stress on the ship's structure. 
>It wouldn't take long for cyclic fatigue to set in, and suddenly large
>pieces start to come off...................

  They want to be folded down before hits are taken. It still beats
hell out of a unitary ring for survivability.

>>  Preparing for combat would entail folding the segments down against 
...
>Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
>need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
>habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
>in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress  on
>the structure.

  Yes, but only a surprise attack at close range will matter given Traveller
ship combat time and distance scales. It beats decalcification.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 19:36:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller playtest

Hello,
>From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
>Subject: GURPS Traveller playtest
...
>Two things:
>1.	Finally, a Traveller publisher that posts things for playtesters...
>2.	$15 a year to pay to be a playtester???  Ouch!

  It's actually $15 US for an annual subscription to SJG's
Pyramid (on-Line) magazine, covering a wide variety of RPG
and game industry subjects. Subscription includes access to
all available playtester files (i.e., G: Discworld as well
as G:T), and access to the Pyramid archives, which appears to
cover issues #1 on.

  It seems a far better value than Starships was.

  It also allows observers to make informed decisions as to 
their views about potential problems while the game is still
in development, rather than being told to buy the reprint, or
to wait until they get all the "features" out of the product.

  It's a shame that a revived JTAS couldn't be published on-
line like that. I don't know how that would modify the numbers
re: advertising revenue versus publishing costs, but I'd happily
pay for such a service. And yes, I'd pay another $15 US/year, to
FFE, SJG, or any other reputable company. (OK, not IG and some
others...)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
       
       

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:10:06 -0500
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

Bob Kondrk wrote:

> Hiya everyone. One thing did jump out at me:
>
> >   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).
>
> Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter? 
> IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface 
> area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine. 
> :)

You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required
for gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.

If I didn't want frontier refueling (for use in established systems) I'd
cut the streamlining down to subsonic, lose the scoops, and remove the
purification plant...it would free up maybe 15 or more displacement
tons.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
|       vi+ da+                                                      |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:18:52 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Spin habs (sorta)

I was wondering about using gyros to rotate a ship in zero g's...
If you have a couple coaxial counter rotating gyros at the centerline of
the ship, the rotational acceleration balances out and you can "push"
off one gyro to rotate the other, thus your ship doesn't roll (or it
does roll by accelerating one gyro more than the other).  Now if you
shift these gyros perpendicular to their axes, the rotational
accelerations (Flemming's left hand law ?) appear to go opposite
directions at opposite sides of the center of gravity for the ship.
Would this be enough to yaw your ship around?  It seems like an
excellent method of maneuvering your ship without orientation rockets. I
suspect however that there needs to be an actual acceleration to for the
gyros to act on.  If that's the case, you can use your main thrusters
and gyros to orient your ship in any direction.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:20:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

The Akins wrote:

> Bob Kondrk wrote:
>
> > Hiya everyone. One thing did jump out at me:
> >
> > >   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).
> >
> > Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter?
> > IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface
> > area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine.
> > :)
>
> You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required
> for gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.
>
> If I didn't want frontier refueling (for use in established systems) I'd
> cut the streamlining down to subsonic, lose the scoops, and remove the
> purification plant...it would free up maybe 15 or more displacement
> tons.

keep the plant, you need it for C- starports (which don't offer refined
fuel)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:44:36 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Brain transplants

> Earth's biotech goes from TL8 to TL13(?) in one step...

Ummm...some guy back in the early 70s did this with several dogs...his funding
was cut because he was accused of cruelty to animals. 

I'll wait until the tech has matured a little more, thank you. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 22:05:00 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Insidious Atmospheres

One of my favorites is a fluorine atmosphere and Hydrofluoric acid seas...

Because fluorine is a gas, a standard airlock will not fully flush the gas 
(since the air in the lock is scavenged into a tank, rather than expelled 
out of the ship).  A special "triple lock" is used.  The outer lock vents 
outside.  The middle lock is kept in vacuum.  The inner lock vents into the 
ship.  (Shamelessly stolen from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising')

douglas

- ----------
From: 	Pearson Publishing[SMTP:jdpearson@wr.net]
Sent: 	Tuesday, April 28, 1998 11:01 AM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	Insidious Atmoshperes

My players have landed on Wypoc/Lanth.  The world is listed as having
an insidious atmosphere and a 40% "water" coverage.  What can they
expect to find in these oceans?


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 21:39:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Trav mini's

Query:
  Does anyone know of any licensed 25mm Trav figures other than those
produced by RAFM (discontinued but still available IIRC) and Grenadier
(long discontinued, period).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 00:38:11 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

On 04/28/98 at 11:10 PM,  The Akins <igor@ames.net> said:

>> >   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).
>>
>> Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter? 
>> IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface 
>> area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine. 
>> :)

>You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required for
>gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.

>If I didn't want frontier refueling (for use in established systems) I'd
>cut the streamlining down to subsonic, lose the scoops, and remove the
>purification plant...it would free up maybe 15 or more displacement tons.

This is the old "slow scooping" vs "fast scooping" argument.  If the ship
has a grav drive that allows it to float in the Gas Giant's upper
atmosphere, then it should be able to refuel with a subsonic
streamlining..albit more slowly. That's the way I build merchant ships,
IMTU. Hypersonic streamlining is something military ships and shuttles
often need, but not chuggers like a Free Trader.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:10:58 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> > Besides, I'm not (in this case)
> >advocating a change but the retention of an already-existing feature.
> 
> Well, lets be clear, they are, in fact, a later addition.  And
> they also are some thing where you either have to arbitrarily limit
> their consequences or introduce greater changes than simply removing
> them.

Of course they where introduced later. They were a new invention that came
along in the late Imperium. Are you saying that you want a static
non-changing universe to play in, where all things are defined and there
is nothing to suprise you?

> >Besides, drop tanks does not
> >change the fundamentals of space travel.
> 
> Well, I couldn't disagree more, but I've already said why.  I will just
> note the your arguements that it won't change the fundamentals also
> runs up against the point you yourself have argued, that you can
> never know all the ramifications when you first write something.

The ramifications never had a chance to play themself out, as the Imperium
collapsed before drop tanks had a chance to change anything. When new
technologies come along it will of course change the fundamentals of
certain areas. just think about when the jump engine was discovered. That
really changed the fundamentals of space travel, but no one is bitching
about that. I wonder why?

> > but that is not the case. It only works for ships whose route
> >never touches a star system without drop tank facilities.
> 
> Which there would be great incentive to put along all significant
> trades routes (which would tend to group travel into certain
> routes which would be a big change, in and of itself).

But that would also make space travel much more vounerable. Drop tanks are
only usable in the large, well defined systems. Fuel has to plentiful,
tools, mechanics, engineers, stable economies has to present. I don't want
to jump to a system to find out that the only mechanic my firm had in
employment has died, and that because of a small malfunction I have to
wait a couple of weeks before the drop tanks can be transported out to my
ship.

> >>But I guess we will have to let other make up their own minds as we aren't
> >>going to convince each other.
> 
> >Tell you what. Give me a few examples of features in some published Traveller
> >material that is invalidated by the logical ramifications of the existence of
> >drop tanks.
> 
> I have.  The need to carry jump fuel.  I have also said at some length
> why I think this is a big change.

It is a change, minor or major, nig deal. The fact is that it was
introduced as a new technology to make interstellar travel easier. Of
course that is going to impact on how space travel happens, just like the
jump drive change thing when it was introduced.

> >What new technologies? Drop tanks are already a part of the existing
> >background.
> 
> They are a late, poorly integrated and poorly thought out additions
> to the existing background.

Well I might be hopping into an argument, but this I disagree with. They
were introduced as a new technology and I beleave that had the Imperium
not collapsed, it would surely have changed, and to me that is an
important part of the game. Introduction of new ideas, play it along and
see where it leads.

> summers@alum.mit.edu
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:08:55 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: drop tanks and tankers: one (mildly heretical) solution

>From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
...
>If jump drive and fuel size dependend on a ship's mass, however, this
>advantage almost completely disappears for most civilian ships; since fuel
>is so light, a jump-5 freighter is less than 7% jump fuel by mass - so
>putting that fuel in drop tanks and dropping it (or getting it from a tanker)
>only saves you about 7% of the cost of the ship - not enough to be worth the
>hassle.

  Makes sense to me. Are the implications for current ship design
significant as a canon problem?

>Making jump performance depend on mass would have two other big advantages.
>First, it removes the weaselly "carry jump fuel as water or methane" 

  And good riddance. Those workarounds should be specified as invalid
in future publications, IMHO.

>penalty, of course.) Second, since ship maneuver performance mostly depends
>on mass (in realistic design systems), we could design ships completely
>around mass rather than volume - creating a "one-pass" design system that

  And they'd make for a sound basis in physics, too.

        Steven Hudson
        

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:09:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: 100 diameter stations

>> Are you talking about fuel stations at the 100 diameter limit? Because if
>> you are, I must point out to you that the economics of jump travel even
>> without drop tanks makes it profitable for ships to jump back and forth
>> between jump limits and leave it to intra-system shuttles to convey the
>> freight and passengers between surface and jump limit.
>
>Even if I agreed (I haven't seen the basis for this, and its not like
>I haven't diagreed with you on things like this before), we should then
>introduce new technologies that make even more problems for the existing
>background?  I thought you agreed that we wanted to be true to the
>fundamentals.

  This should be self-evident. No streamlining, cargo handling is
zero-G (by station professionals), 1G drives (or less!) are perfectly
adequate, and regularly scheduled vessels get 8-day turnarounds easily.
Any airline (trucking, shipping, etc.) scheduling person can tell you
how much getting 45 trips a year matters compared to 25 or so.

  And an obvious business case can be made to show how such a station
would _not_ eat up much of the differential.

  An asteroid trans-shipping point at 100d isn't a new technology of
course, simply an obvious application of pre-existing hardware and
methodologies. After all, even at 100 d it is still an orbiting 
high port.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:09:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Changing the background

...
>characteristics of the old one).  I also sometimes think that there is
>tendency to try and find, or even create, situations that don't make sense
>(such as the whole pircay thing where a lot of the objects rested on
>making assumptions that are not canon) (the latter may be so common
>becuase it gives people and chance to play with the background.)

  Seeings as there've been no more requests for RoM TL retrospectives,
can I take that as an invitation to re-clarify the various patrolling
and security issues as they relate to the piracy thread?

  I don't feel a need to play with the background, but I'm fairly
certain that I'm capable of running the numbers on canon or reasonable
economics, picking out discrepancies, and interpreting the results.
Statistical analysis by innuendo is notoriously inaccurate.

...
>> discrepancies arise as more and more material is written.  Those who control
>> the developement should try to minimize such, of course, but it is
>> unreasonable to expect them to be 100% successful.
>
>And that is part of what I keep pointing out to people that claim that
>have dealt with all the ramification of changing jump drives to
>displacement
>mass theory, or introducing jump torps, or allowing drop tanks (and why
>these are so ill considered).  You simply can't know all the
>ramifications

  No, but you can certainly explore the ramifications to a large
extent, and I think it's fair to say that to the extent that the
various Traveller-related lists (and I'd never even heard of the
obviously somewhat secretive Historic TML Flamewar Re-Enactment
Society) have a lot of people with various experiences, knowledge,
and skill sets (and spare time to kill, obviously), that most of
these things can be refined about as well as GDW or DGP did in
their efforts to meet dead-lines and bank payments.

  Having occasional drop-ins by Great Old Ones doesn't hurt, either.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:29:34 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

> Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
> at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!


Now THAT is special!  :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 01:31:48 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Insidious Atmoshperes

> My players have landed on Wypoc/Lanth.  The world is listed as having 
> an insidious atmosphere and a 40% "water" coverage.  What can they 
> expect to find in these oceans?
> 


Dead NPC's?   :)

Actually, depends on the atmosphere type.  Is it primarily gaseous
hydroflouric compounds?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:14:14
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Piracy Reference

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: re- names needed for some pirate bands...
>
>RSpake2064 wrote:
>
>I'm not sure what you're talking about, to be honest, but there's a new book out
>about the history of piracy.  Sorry, don't have a title, but I think its gor
>"Black Flag" in the title.
>
>Bloo

The book I'd go for is Andrews' "Elizabethan Privateering". Apart from
anything else, it has a nice long list of ships, captains, home ports and
captured cargoes (including by value). It also has some good stuff on the
economics of piracy.

Cross reference with Postumus' History of Prices in Holland for even more
accurate numbers on costs etc.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:11:08
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #444

James Pearson wrote ...

>During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
>per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
>to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
>they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
>couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?

My short answer is that a zero was accidentally added to the costs of
running a Type III life support system (ie a normal ship life support
system), so you should cut the cost down to Cr250 per person per fortnight
for recycling the oxygen, changing the air filters, restocking the wet bars
etc.

This change means you need to cut passenger charges by Cr 1750 or so to
keep balanced.

Other theories include the Cr2000 is mostly compulsory insurance, or that
it includes the cost of routine maintainence above and beyond the normal
annual maintainence.

>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 18:01:40 +0000
>From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
>Subject: Insidious Atmoshperes
>
>My players have landed on Wypoc/Lanth.  The world is listed as having 
>an insidious atmosphere and a 40% "water" coverage.  What can they 
>expect to find in these oceans?

Liquids that arent water. Probably ammonia, possibly sulphuric acid. I dont
want to think about life forms ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:29:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Taylor <izzylobo@faerealm.faerealm.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or Not To Tech

>> er, they weren't worried about the way it exploded - they were worried 
>> about the way the after-effects of the explosion made warp drive 
>> impossible for parsecs in every direction. No warp drive, no interstellar
>> travel, would the last planet into the Long Night please shut off the lights
>> and lock the doors...
>> 
>> Imagine I develop a bomb that makes jump-space entry/exit impossible
>> for an entire subsector, perhaps forever. Also imagine that the energy is
>> so unstable that me just researching it will probably set the bomb off.
>> Are you going to want me studying this thing in your Pocket Empire?
>
>No, but in the star trek thing, I'm sure there is another way to travel
>FTL without Warp.  In the various episodes, we have seen other types of
>propulsion that are more efficient then warp.  Heck, if I was the
>federation, I'd develope the new FTL tech then shoot off a bunch of
>Omega Bombs in BORG space.  :)

None of those other means (other than the Bajoran Wormhole) have proven
stable or reliable; the Soliton wave is uncontrollable, subspace
transporters are dangerous (and the Omega effect likely ruins them also),
Transwarp conduits are Borg technology, and quite possibly rely on
subspace, Transwarp doesn't work, etc.

Basically, barring supertech/superpsi (ie, Borg, Traveler, Q, Cth...err
Yaskoydray), if you want to travel FTL, you use Warp drive in Trek, just
as you use a Jump drive in Traveller. 

There's also the fact that most of these technologies are;

a; new developments (i.e., within the timeframe of the last decade or
so... since TNG started showing) and thus postdate the Omega Directives

and

b; not available to Voyager when it's stuck forty zillion light years from
the Federation.

I'm all for bashing Treknobabble when it gets out of hand (particle of
the week club, the swiss-army ginsu Navigational Deflector, Holodecks of
Doom, and the infamous What the Hell Trick will the Transporter pull This 
Week), but this time, they had the right idea; it's alright for your
neighbor to mess up his own backyard; it's not okay for him to mess up
everyone elses at the same time. We can argue the plausibility of the
Omega particle if you like, but that's sort of like arguing the
plausibility of contragrav in Traveller... pretty damn futile, as it's one
of the things that makes Traveller "go"

Scott Taylor
Freelancer for Hire
Have 2400c, Will Travel

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #445
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 446



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All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: To tech or Not To Tech
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: A New Free Trader
Re: Weather in Space
Re: To tech or Not To Tech
Re: Jump details
RE: Jump details
Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >
Re: Insidious Atmoshperes
Re: Insidious Atmospheres
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: particle physics
Re: re- help on finding a ship name
ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:52:28 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or Not To Tech

> I'm all for bashing Treknobabble when it gets out of hand (particle of
> the week club, the swiss-army ginsu Navigational Deflector, Holodecks of
> Doom, and the infamous What the Hell Trick will the Transporter pull This 
> Week), but this time, they had the right idea; it's alright for your
> neighbor to mess up his own backyard; it's not okay for him to mess up
> everyone elses at the same time. We can argue the plausibility of the
> Omega particle if you like, but that's sort of like arguing the
> plausibility of contragrav in Traveller... pretty damn futile, as it's one
> of the things that makes Traveller "go"


Well, I just found myself a bit miffed, because the lead-up to it was
very exciting..

Like that time they had the chase all over the galaxy for that message
in the DNA that turned out to be a glorified "Hi, howya doing"?  That
left a bad taste in my mouth.  Treknology is just too 'pat' at times. 
Like with what you mentioned, the Transporter Miracle of the
Week...etc...They open too many holes and never close them...Like this
thing with Wesley "The Boy" Crusher..Suddenly he's homo-superior when he
steps outside of time?  I really felt that stretched plausibility beyond
even treknology realms...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 03:57:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

In mail you write:

> Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
> else too.  This last Voyager with the "Omega" particles was laughable. 
> The entire Federation scared stiff over something slightly more potent
> then an anti-matter bomb.  I felt it was overplayed.  They should have
> had the Omega Molecule be something that destroyed parts of the
> universe, in order to make it a real gut-wrenching threat.

They *did* do that. Not only did it blow things up, it did *something*
to "subspace" that made warp drives unusable in the area of effect.

So the threat was eliminating *all* ftl travel and communication over
most of the galaxy. That's quite a threat to a star faring civilization.

How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
weapon. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:03:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

In mail you write:

> On 04/28/98 at 11:10 PM,  The Akins <igor@ames.net> said:
>
>>> >   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).
>>>
>>> Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter? 
>>> IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface 
>>> area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine. 
>>> :)
>
>>You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required for
>>gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.
>
>>If I didn't want frontier refueling (for use in established systems) I'd
>>cut the streamlining down to subsonic, lose the scoops, and remove the
>>purification plant...it would free up maybe 15 or more displacement tons.
>
> This is the old "slow scooping" vs "fast scooping" argument.  If the ship
> has a grav drive that allows it to float in the Gas Giant's upper
> atmosphere, then it should be able to refuel with a subsonic
> streamlining..albit more slowly. That's the way I build merchant ships,
> IMTU. Hypersonic streamlining is something military ships and shuttles
> often need, but not chuggers like a Free Trader.

A 1g ship trying to scoop Jupiter had *better* be moving *well* above
hypersonic. Or it'll never get out again. 

"Slow" scooping has a lot of problems. Mostly because you have to go so
deep in the atmosphere that you become subject to "weather" which, on a
gas giant, is *not* fun.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:18:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

In mail you write:

> The following article, found at http://abcnews.com
> started me thinking about minor intrasystem events
> events that could affect inbound/outbound spaceships
> and starships. The TML has discussed stellar flares
> and the article adds another event. Can anybody add
> anything else that could add color to a system-wide
> "weather bulletin" that would be considered an
> annoyance rather than an overwhelming danger?

The main things you need to worry about are "meteor showers" like this,
and solar flares. Flares require observation of the star to detect, but
luckily the particles that do the damage are moving somewhat slower
than light, so that you'll have minutes to hours of warning. 

Flares tend to depend on sunspot cycles, which require that you have
observed the star for decades to get the cycles figured out.

Meteor showers tend to occur when crossing the orbit of old comets. The
density depends on what part of the orbit you cross (relative to the
position of the comet). 

These too require decades or even *centuries* of observations to be
able to predict. 

So a "newly settled" system is apt to learn about major flares, or
major meteor showers the hard way. Settled systems will know in advance
when such things are likely.

Also, younger systems will tend to have more "junk" floating around.

And could one of the astronomers tell us about what it'd be like being
near things like T-Tauri stars (which as I recall have *monster*
stellar winds). 

> Meteroids Threaten Satellites
>
> By Jane E. Allen
> The Associated Press
> M A N H A T T A N   B E A C H, Calif., April 27 - In
> November, the Earth's atmosphere will be hit with
> the most severe meteor shower in 33 years, a
> bombardment of debris that could damage or
> destroy some of the nearly 500 satellites that
> provide worldwide communications, navigation and
> weather-watching. 
>     The debris consists only of particles-some thinner than a
> hair and most no larger than a grain of sand-but they are
> hurtling through space so fast that they can have the
> destructive power of a .22-caliber bullet. 

Do note that for most traveller ships this is something you can pretty
much ignore.

>     As a result, about 200 commercial and military satellite
> operators, insurers and scientists began brainstorming here
> today about what they can do to prepare, such as turn off
> spacecraft or turn them away from the stream of particles.

I almost hope that there's some damage. Enough to make them consider
the idea of permanent manned installations in geosynch orbit. Then you
can "armor" the place a bit, and be able to maintain the
transmitters/cameras far more easily.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:14:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: To tech or Not To Tech

In mail you write:

>> er, they weren't worried about the way it exploded - they were worried 
>> about the way the after-effects of the explosion made warp drive 
>> impossible for parsecs in every direction. No warp drive, no interstellar
>> travel, would the last planet into the Long Night please shut off the 
> lights
>> and lock the doors...
>> 
>> Imagine I develop a bomb that makes jump-space entry/exit impossible
>> for an entire subsector, perhaps forever. Also imagine that the energy is
>> so unstable that me just researching it will probably set the bomb off.
>> Are you going to want me studying this thing in your Pocket Empire?
>
> No, but in the star trek thing, I'm sure there is another way to travel
> FTL without Warp.  In the various episodes, we have seen other types of
> propulsion that are more efficient then warp.  Heck, if I was the
> federation, I'd develope the new FTL tech then shoot off a bunch of
> Omega Bombs in BORG space.  :)

Supposedly, they are all "related" to warp. Sort of like warp is "Jump
1". and the others are higher numbers. Clobbering subspace (the way the
Omega stuff was supposed to) would therefore affect *all* of them. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:39:33 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Jump details

On Sat, 25 Apr 1998, Chris Seamans wrote:

[already agreed arguments snipped]

> I don't think you're understanding a basic idea here:
> 
> J-Drives are complete and utter fantasy based on Science-Fiction
> literature, specifically (it would seem) the Foundation series. It is
> nothing more than a means of simulating FTL travel by side-stepping the
> rules of science.

This is the point I refer to the most. Much SF critics sometimes overlook
this too - everything not expainable in SF is needed to get it consistent
with today known physics - as 'good' SF never contradicts it. Even
'better' SF does not rely upon pseudotech, it relies upon the persons,
which are living in this world. Tech always should give the background.

So, if we could explain how jump drives work, why aren't we still able to
build them? In fact, 'jump space' is the explanation to "why can we travel
faster than light?", not more.

> With that being said, whether the players have 50 pages of quasi-scientific
> babble or not, the operations of a ship will still be the same as if they
> knew nothing. An ex-girlfriend of mine's head would swim anytime anything
> remotely scientific or math-related came up. She knew nothing about the
> innards of her car. Yet, she was an excellent driver.

I know from my own campaign, in which mostly scientists play, that the
ones with no knowledge about physics get along best with the universe as
it is. The disturbances mostly come from a scientist asking "how does this
work", or even more "why doesn't this work?" when they thought they found
a way to trick. I could explain this to them, being myself a scientist,
but I really don't want to. That's a problem, but I don't think it's mine.

> What that means is: If I choose to not give a damn about the way a Jump
> Drive works, I can still give my PCs a ship, and they can still operate
> one. It's that simple. Your smarmy holier-than-thou attitude concerning how
> people should or should not play their games is completely without warrant,
> and at least from me, unappreciated.

At least I want to say, that there still is a difference between game
mechanics and technology, as space travel is needed for a SF game, but no
one knows how it really would work. If the players want to know about it,
they may ask. Better they don't. If they only ask to find a way to trick,
say their characters do not know, so there's no need to explain.

(A point still missed in the discussion: If most of today's car drivers
don't know how the car works, why should everyone in the future know about
ship drives? We are NOT in the Star Trek Universe in which this seems to
be true ...)

I for myself like the idea of travelling through ether in the Space: 1889
scenario, although this is proven unreal. But it makes for fun.
And what's the most important bit of playing?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:54:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: RE: Jump details

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Jeff Cornish wrote:

> Nobody, but nobody knows exactly how Jump Drive works.  Every third 'expert'
> has some different opinion on what the drive does, where is the place you go
> through, why it works, when it was discovered by who.

Remember a sentence about Quantum Physics:
"Who's not confused by Quantum Mechanics did not understand it."
(I Don't know if this was from Planck, Schroedinger or Heisenberg ...)

> [2] - If you have the original in German (for most of you American GM's) so
> much the better.

There are two books from Albert available - I've got them. But my players
also can read them ... bad luck.
You could also take Newton's 'Principia Mathematica' - he published them
in Latin.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:03:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: < insert carmudgeonly throat-clearing noises here >

On Sun, 26 Apr 1998, Joe Pettit wrote:

> Yea, I'm working on my theory with the jump bubble, only its a misnomer,
> actually its an N-space bubble that you ride in. So while we're on changing the
> nature of the universe in jump space, what would be the effects of no inertia on
> life?

Inertia is a property of the mass - gravity being the other.
Asimov wrote a little SF crime story, I think you know: The Billard Ball.
This shows, what could happen if a body loses its mass: it accelarates to
light velocity.

Missing inertia would make problems with the pulse, as p = m * v gets zero
with missing m. You could throw any body way too far no matter how big it
is. But, on the other hand, each gas molecule hitting your ship in space
would throw it away. The crew on board would not gat injured, as they
don't have inertia, too, but navigating could get a little worse ...

Only a few ideas,

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:53:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Insidious Atmoshperes

In mail you write:

> My players have landed on Wypoc/Lanth.  The world is listed as having 
> an insidious atmosphere and a 40% "water" coverage.  What can they 
> expect to find in these oceans?

For startes, with an "insidious" atmosphere, the oceans are unlikely to
be water. They may *contain water, but it'd have a *lot* of something
else in it. Consider nice things like acids, or other really weird
chemical crud.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:56:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Insidious Atmospheres

In mail you write:

> One of my favorites is a fluorine atmosphere and Hydrofluoric acid seas...
>
> Because fluorine is a gas, a standard airlock will not fully flush the gas 
> (since the air in the lock is scavenged into a tank, rather than expelled 
> out of the ship).  A special "triple lock" is used.  The outer lock vents 
> outside.  The middle lock is kept in vacuum.  The inner lock vents into the 
> ship.  (Shamelessly stolen from H. Beam Piper's 'Uller Uprising')

One "nice" thing about Fluorine is that a couple of relatively "common"
and "cheap" metals react with it the way aluminum does with oxygen.
That is, they form a fluride layer on the surface and said layer is
reasonably strong and protects the underlying metal. The metals in
question are copper and nickel. 

So instead of trying to figure out how to coat everything with teflon,
in a lot of cases you can just copper or nickel plate exposed metal,
and then ignore it.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 04:30:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

In mail you write:

> During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
> per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
> to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
> they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
> couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?

Oxygen isn't much of a problem, as they noticed. Atmospheric life
support requires the following, pretty much in order of importance.

1. Oxygen at a percentage of the atmosphere that amounts to 3 psi.
2. "Inert" components that bring pressure up to around 15 psi total
   (+/- 5 psi?)
3. removal of carbon dioxide. People produce CO2 from reacting food
   with oxygen: CxH2xOx + x O2 -> x CO2 + x H2O.
4. maintenance of humidity at reasonable level (too dry, you get
   various sorts of respiratory troubles, too much it gets muggy and
   water condenses all over the place. AS noted in 3, people *produce*
   water. 
5. Keeping the air (and the rest of the ship) at a reasonable
   temperature. In space, due to the vacuum surrounding the ship,
   getting *rid* of heat is a major problem.
6. removal of the zillions of "trace" molecules that people and their
   belongings produce. For example, formaldehyde. These "trace" amounts
   can build up to *lethal* levels, and many are dangerous long before
   they are strong enough to smell.

CO2 removal can be done various ways. Anything from chemicals that
react with it to using various tricks to "seperate" it from the rest of
the air and then using heat or electricity to "crack" it into carbon
and oxygen.

Water removal is probably done as part of the cooling process for the
air. Water condensed from the air can be fed into the drinking water
supply, or if necessary, broken down into hydrogen and oxygen.

Trace elements can be handled by filters (the space shuttle uses
activated charcoal) or they can be "cracked" or "burned" by various
thermal or electrical means.

There's also the matter of dealing with water and waste water/sewage on
board ship. That's life support too. A simple holding tank just won't
cut it for a typical ship. The amount of sewage and "dirty" water that
showers, washing dishes/clothes, etc will produce in a week is pretty
amazing. 

At the very least, the water has to be seperated and purified. The
remaining solids then take up a small enough volume to be stored
easily. The purified water can be reused.

While I doubt that such problems will exist by the time life support
has been around that long, it's possible to set things up a bit
differently for the squeamish. You have *two* water systems. Drinking
water doesn't get recycled, except for water condensed from the air
being added. Used "wash" water gets used for flushing toilets, and is
where purified water from "sewage" winds up.

And of course, food is part of the life support costs.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:25:57 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: particle physics

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> This is somewhat misleading. It's not like inside a neutron there is an
> electron and a anti-neutrino bouncing around; a neutron is also just composed
> of three quarks. A neutron is an up quark (charge +2/3) and two down 
> quarks (charge -1/3.) When a neutron decays, one of the down quarks changes
> into an up quark; in the process it emits a electron. This is legal since
> electrons (like all leptons) can be created out of nothing, as long as
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
a better way to handle this is stating that vacuum consists of lots of
electrons with negative energy, which can be elevated to positive energies
- - to go round the effect of creating mass out of nothing.
This is one of the descriptions used for the pair formation of electrons
and positrons from seemingly nothing but gamma rays.

> charge+mass+momentum all balence - which they do, if a neutrino is created
> at the same time going in the opposite direction. (It's technically an
> anti neutrino for mildly complicated reasons.)

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:36:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: re- help on finding a ship name

On Mon, 27 Apr 1998, RSpake2064 wrote:

> hey guys... 
> 
> i lost some of my notes...  i need some help in finding the names of the
> Titanic's sister ships..
> 
> i know of the Olympia, and the Vaterland...  i just cant rember the fourth
> ship...

Britannic

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:49:48 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, J-Man wrote:

> I love Star Trek dearly, but as far as actual tech goes, they are way
> around the bend.  The transporter itself is a direct impossibility,
> which they neatly side-stepped in one show by claiming it had
> "Heisenburg Compensaters" in it.  Gee that's neat.  :)

I remember I discussed that item with a commilitone, and used the word
'Heisenberg Compensator' even before the episode had been shown. Now think
of what I felt when I saw this one.

> Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
> else too.  This last Voyager with the "Omega" particles was laughable. 
> The entire Federation scared stiff over something slightly more potent
> then an anti-matter bomb.  I felt it was overplayed.  They should have
> had the Omega Molecule be something that destroyed parts of the
> universe, in order to make it a real gut-wrenching threat.

The Star Trek tech always seems some 'transcendental' to me, as even the
thoughts sometimes have effects on the universe ... but, as they have to
make a story, they sometimes have to use some kind of danger. That's the
same problem with the alien races - in classic the enemies were the
klingons and romulans, in tng they tried out the Ferengi - too silly, than
the Borg - too powerful, than the dominion - too well known by now, the
Kazon - ok, that was it, the new species in delta quadrant ....

Sometimes it gets bothersome, yes. But I liked the shows, until a german
TV station decided to put them out on a daily scheme - even the new
episodes.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:38 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

David P. Summers writes:

> Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> 
>>Besides, I'm not (in this case)
>>advocating a change but the retention of an already-existing feature.
> 
>Well, lets be clear, they are, in fact, a later addition.

??? Oh, you mean that they were not in the original 3 black books? Well,
I can see that argument. I don't agree with it, I think that Book 5 and
the first year's JTASes are pretty close to original, but I can see it.
Of course, to be consistent you'd then have to be a warm advocate of
jump torpedoes, because they were mentioned in the first edition of the
original 3 black books and were subsequently dropped (causing a lot of
underserved abuse to be heaped on the heads of the authors of _Leviathan_
over the years.

>And they also are some thing where you either have to arbitrarily limit
>their consequences or introduce greater changes than simply removing them.

Greater changes to future products, yes. But to compensate you wouldn't
have to invalidate all the products published in the last 20 years where
they are mentioned, nor the I-don't-know-how-many regular and TCS campaigns
that people have run in the last 20 years where they have been used.
 
>>Besides, drop tanks does not
>>change the fundamentals of space travel.
> 
>Well, I couldn't disagree more, but I've already said why.

You've repeatedly made a vague, unsupported claim that the fact that some
ships, in some limited cases, will be able to carry more cargo for the
same (well, slightly increased) cost is a fundamental change in the way
space travel works. But you've failed to come up with a single concrete
example of a significant change that would cause. Not one single solitary
example, just a vague generalization. If those dreadful ramifications are
so nebulous that you can't even come up with a few examples, they aren't
worth losing sleep over.

>I will just note the your arguments that it won't change the fundamentals
>also runs up against the point you yourself have argued, that you can
>never know all the ramifications when you first write something.

Actually, I've conceeded that you can never be sure that some unforseen
ramification won't raise it's ugly head and bite you on the ass, in the
same way that you can never _prove_ a negative. But I can consider the
possible ramifications for a while, and if neither I, nor the opponents
of the idea are able to come up with anything more concrete than a vague
apprehension that "You can never be sure!", then I can consider the idea
innocent until proven guilty.

>>Eliminating the need for all ships everywhere to carry their own fuel would
>>be a fairly big change, I suppose (though not nearly as big as, say,
>>requiring them to travel in convoy in order to protect them from enemy
>>raiders),
> 
>Much bigger.

Wow! That's a nice, knock-down argument for you! I can't believe I didn't
think of that myself! OK, you've convinced me!

>>but that is not the case. It only works for ships whose route
>>never touches a star system without drop tank facilities.
> 
>Which there would be great incentive to put along all significant
>trades routes (which would tend to group travel into certain routes
>which would be a big change, in and of itself).

Economic analysis shows that under the present Traveller rules running
regularily scheduled ships back and forth between two systems reduce
the cost of freight and passenger traffic significantly, provided the
systems can provide enough traffic to keep the ships filled all the time.
Thus travel already tend to move along certain routes. What is more, this
is just the way things seem to work in the (admittedly scanty) background
information we have about traffic in the Traveller Universe. So it accords
with both rules and background material. Drop tanks will simply increase
this tendency. And they will do it in _future_ publications, not
retroactively, the way dropping them will. 

>>Tell you what. Give me a few examples of features in some published Traveller
>>material that is invalidated by the logical ramifications of the existence of
>>drop tanks.
> 
>I have.  The need to carry jump fuel.

Try reading what I'm asking. I'm challinging you to provide concrete
examples, something you seem remarkably reluctant to do.

>I have also said at some length why I think this is a big change.

No, you've repeated the same assertation several times. Drop tanks will
change the need to carry jump fuel. No argument there. You _think_ that
this is a big deal. No argument there, either. But your opinions don't
carry much weight unless you can back them with something a little
more concrete. Evidence, please. Examples, logical arguments, etc. Not
just repeating the same basic axiom ad nauseam.

>>Wow! That one deserves to be nominated for the World Hairsplitting
>>Championship. If the motivations change, so does the basis for interaction.
>>In the rebellion the entire basis for the interaction of worlds were
>>different from the Classic Era.
> 
>Its only splitting hairs if you assume that you view is the right one.  

You're saying that if the conduct of a campaign changes because the
motivations of the vast majority of the NPCs shift (in casu, from
peacetime to wartime mentality) then it's no big deal, but if a
slice of the society (a slice which many PCs has very little to do
with) changes because of a technological innovation, then its a major
deal.

BTW. so far you've done preciously little to convince anyone that your
view has any validity. You've stated an axiom, dismissed counter-arguments
out of hand by repeating that axiom and refused to provide any support of
your own for it.

>It has been argued im historical fields that it is a mistake to focus 
>on things like political (and often petty) motivations and who is 'in
>charge' when these are often just symptoms of more fundamental changes
>(or the lack thereof).

And if I were trying to write a historical text that argument might even
have had something to do with the case in hand. But since I'm arguing
about the features of a shared world universe, it hasen't.

>Yet all I've gotten from you on this is attempts to ridicule my points.

I'm not trying to ridicule your points. Arguing a case by repeating your
axioms is ridiculous in the first place. Try addressing my points or at
least provide some of your own instead of repeating your basic premise and
youmight get something more.

>>>Not as big or expensive as they were before.
>>
>>Exactly as big and expensive as before. The cost of cargo space is the same
>>as the cost of fuel tankage. [...] it's only the per item (freight and
>>passengers) cost that drops
> 
>Which is exactly the point.  I find the idea that "ships aren't smaller,
>the just can do what it took bigger ships to do" to be truly splitting
>hairs.

Touche. Yes, I hadn't looked at it that way. Of course, that only applies
to transport ships, but then, transport ships are the only one that are
significantly affected by drop tanks. OK, you're right, drop tanks will
effectively allow smaller ships for the same job. Now give me a few
examples of Traveller publications that will be invalidated by this fact.
 
>>What new technologies? Drop tanks are already a part of the existing
>>background.
> 
>They are a late, poorly integrated and poorly thought out addition
>to the existing background.

They are an addition to the original three books, yes, but to the
existing background? They appear in JTAS#1. I don't recall if _Kinunir_
came out before or after that, but cartainly drop tanks have been part
the background (as opposed to the rules) almost from the start.

BTW. are you advocating dropping fast drug or slow berths? Both are part
of the original rules and they are also poorly intergrated (fast drugs
makes for a cheaper and safer way to travel than slow berths).
 
>>>I never said it wasn't.  I just said it wasn't a fundamental
>>>change to the basis of the setting.
>>
>>I notice that you ignored the small list of fundamental changes the
>>Rebellion would mean to a Classic Era campaign.
> 
>Hogwash.  I pointed out the fundamental disagreement that was
>the basis for them all.

In other words, you dismissed my counter-arguments by repeating your basic
assumption. Ridiculous...

> Well, from my point of view you have failed to show how they can
> do anything but cause conflicts.  However, perhaps the best way
> to discuss things is not simply dismiss points of view we don't
> agree with.

You mean, not say things like: "Hogwash.  I pointed out the fundamental
disagreement that was the basis for them all."?
 
>Well, fine except for the issue of drop tanks and being able to jump from
>external fuel which I feel represents a major change to the background.
>One would also have either figure the field needs to go up all at once
>or wonder why people don't by smaller reactors and just take a few
>hours to jump (since you are going to be at it a week anyway).

Good point. 

>Hardly.  As I pointed out in text you deleted, it is not unusual for
>technologies to be fundamentally limited (especially ones that involve
>some trick like a high throughput device might).

I deleted it because I had already conceded that I'd accept it if the
other problems could be explained away. I still wouldn't consider them
very plausible, but since they are concievable, I didn't see any
reason to continue discussing them.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #446
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 447



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Ranks
Re: High Lightning deck plan key
Re: To tech or Not To Tech
Re: Grav vehicles
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: Insidious Atmospheres
Re: A New Free Trader
Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
UPP Size Code?
Re: Weapon/Social modifiers
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: To tech or not to tech?
to tech or not to tech
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #443
Re: A question about Plasma Guns
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Ranks
Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #444
Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Trav mini's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:05:19 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ranks

Jeff Zeitlin writes:
 
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:

>>OB Traveller tie-in: If you were writing up General Marshall or General
>>Pershing, what numbers would you assign to those two ranks?
> 
>[...] Book 4/MT/TNE/T4 rank would be O11 for
>Marshall (five-star rank), O12 for Pershing ("six star" rank).

That was the point I was trying to make. I've long been of the opinion that
a multi-sector interstellar state needs more ranks than a single country
on a balkanized planet and that the historical instances of ranks higher
than four-star generals was an argument in my favor. Unfortunately Douglas
rather thorughly spiked my guns with the examples and clarifications he
provided (But IMTU the Imperial Grand Admirals are still O14).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:05:56 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: High Lightning deck plan key

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 ringrose@ascent.com wrote:

> It gets worse.  (oh, no, not the deadman's tumble again....)

...

> If you build your rotating section wrong, it is unstable.  For an
> object with three different moments of inertia, rotation about the
> middle axis is unstable.
> 
> Example: Take a normal paperback book.  Put a rubber band around it,
> to hold it closed.  Hold it with the spine in your left hand, and the
> open side in your right.  Toss it in the air, spinning so that the
> axis of rotation goes through the spine and the center of the book.
> If it rotates more than a couple times, you'll probably catch it with
> the spine in your _right_ hand, as the instability flips it over.

Also working: a pingpong racket, marked on on side and thrown up to rotate
horizontally. It has the right properties to turn 180 deg before returning
to your hand.

> Now, this might be an interesting trick for a ship which needs to
> reorient itself quickly, but I wouldn't want to try it (the contents
> of the ship will get thrown around pretty badly).

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:09:17 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: To tech or Not To Tech

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, J-Man wrote:

> No, but in the star trek thing, I'm sure there is another way to travel
> FTL without Warp.  In the various episodes, we have seen other types of
> propulsion that are more efficient then warp.  Heck, if I was the
> federation, I'd develope the new FTL tech then shoot off a bunch of
> Omega Bombs in BORG space.  :)

That had even been tried more than once in the series. But all of them
failed (wonder why?): The Soliton Waves, Transwarp, etc.

So don't think there's no consistency in the series ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:15:55 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Grav vehicles

>However, this approach implies to me that other designs do not have this
>capability. Why design a specific grav sedan and call it the
>"Planet-Hopper" when any old enclosed air/raft will do?

Because any old air/raft will have fuel tanks explode, suffer severe
material degradation and have their occupants suffocating/dying of bends
etc when they are subjected to vacuum. Building something that is supposed
to stand vacuum cost a bundle.

I think the blanket statement in various CT stuff that all air/rafts are
capable of reaching orbit without trouble is an oversimplification.

In my design system vehicle designs cost about 1000 Cr extra per m2 surface
area if vacuum proofed.
(IMTU or is there a specific short for In My Traveller Design System ?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:22:45 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

James Pearson writes:

>During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
>per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
>to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
>they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
>couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?

Wellcome to the list, James! (You are relatively new, aren't you? ;-) 
This is one of the fairly frequently raised issues (Last time a couple of
months ago; you may want to browse through the archives and see what you
can find). Basically, some of us believe the Traveller economic system is
broken and that this figure is one manifestation of that. IMO Cr2000 is
far too much compared to the cost of food, oxygen, etc. (Others disagree).
I also think that passengers (who only spen 8-9 days aboard the ship per
jump should only cost 2/3rds of what a crewmember costs. My own figures
(Non-canon warning!) comes to Cr300 for Economy passengers (I have a two-
to-a-stateroom passenger class), Cr400 for crew and Mid passengers and
Cr500 for High passengers. This is for a 10 day period. Crew accounts for
three 'units' per month, passengers for one unit per jump.

Bruce Johnson replies:
>Actually Life Support also includes all the storage/dumping/recycling of
>wastes,

Propably not. Life support cost are directly proportional to the number
of passengers. I doubt that waste disposal for 20 is twice as expensive
as waste disposal for 10. But I could be wrong.

>food, drink,

Definitely. That acconts for several 100 credits...

>heating, cooling,

No. That's part of the ship's functions.

>removing CO2 and other undesirable gases from the atmosphere,

Yes. Another few 10s of credits.

>keeping the ship from smelling like an old sneaker, etc etc.
>Oxygen is actually a _small_ part of the total.

The problem is that everything combined seems to be such a small part of
the total ;-)
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:30:31 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Insidious Atmospheres

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> One "nice" thing about Fluorine is that a couple of relatively "common"
> and "cheap" metals react with it the way aluminum does with oxygen.
> That is, they form a fluride layer on the surface and said layer is
> reasonably strong and protects the underlying metal. The metals in
> question are copper and nickel. 

Not only metals, but also glasses are affected by fluorine. I remember in
a starter lesson of chemistry the lecturer showed a flask half filled with
fluorine acid only to wait until the liquid found its way out - part of
the flask was away. The protecting layer only exists on certain materials.

If you search for something that's able to solve anything but a problem -
fluorine is quite near to it.

> So instead of trying to figure out how to coat everything with teflon,
> in a lot of cases you can just copper or nickel plate exposed metal,
> and then ignore it.

Be careful with different metals put on each other. In much cases the not
so noble metal rusts away even faster than without the other.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:46:35 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

> You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required
> for gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.

Oh-oh. It looks like I've got some ships that need redesigning! :)

If you don't mind me asking, what are some of the other FF&S 
minimum/maximum parameters for starship designs? If IG wasn't already 
dead and buried (and my local game vendors weren't so "inventory 
challenged"), I'd just go ahead and buy the book. I love the FF&S 
spreadsheet that Andy designed (especially the latest version with 
the "light text" load/save), but w/o this kind of info it's useless 
to anyone that doesn't have the book.

Thanks,

Bob Kondrk
- ---------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ USA
dss2@erols.com

Webpage:
http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 07:13:14 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra

On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:

> >        Steven Hudson
> >
> Well Steve, I have proof that the RoM was definately at or above TL25 at the
> time of the Night Fall. The only reason that the RoM fell at all was that
> the Terra Suoerbrains were flat out bored with playing with the "lesser
> beings".

Actually, they were foiled by an unanticipated side effect of their latest
scheme. The last transmission heard from Terra at this time was enigmatic,
indicative of their ongoing drive to rule: 

"Come Pinky, we must prepare for tonights work!"
"Wot are we going to do tonight, Brain?"
"Same thing we do _every_ night, Pinky...Try to take over the Universe!"

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 29 Apr 1998 10:32 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: UPP Size Code?

So, can we make a table of UPP size codes, something
like this?

Size		Body		Travel Time to 100d Limit	
(from UPP)			1g	2g	3g	4g	5g	6g
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
0		Asteroid belt	
1		Planetoid	
2-4		Small Planet	
5-7		Medium Planet	
8-10		Large Planet	
20-100		Small GG	
110-240		Large GG	
250-???		Brown Dwarf	
???-???		???

Perhaps an extended, generalized table would help calculate
close-enough travel times to the 100d limit of said body.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:53:49 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Weapon/Social modifiers

>Revolver:  +1 Social
>10mm+ bore:  +1 Social
>Semi auto pistol:  +2 Social
>Gauss weapon:  +3 Social
>Shotgun:  +4 Social
>Auto weapon:  +5 Social
>Plasma/Fusion :  DO WHAT EVER YOU WANT!!!!  JUST DON'T SHOOT
>ME!!!!!!!!!!!

In sweden this would be true but with negative signs.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:04:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

>How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
>that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
>sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
>weapon.

My version of the Empress Wave (that I call the black curtain) is that
something Yaskoydroy + children did to hyperspae 300 000 years ago upset
something. Sublight detection drones (built by Baddies from the core) was
sent off towards galactic core and then the baddies went out to stip the
disturbance. the roundtrip took about 300 000 so here they are. They go
about their business by disabling jump on a hex by hex basis along the
wave. Then they sanitize any planet that might harbour jump using life with
antimatter deep burrower bombs.
Why do they do this? They were built millions of years ago as caretakers
for the hyperspace construction that extends from galactic core and out to
the rim. This is the reason why the galaxy isn't teeming with
civilizations; only those in this narrow band can go FTL (a side effect of
jumpspace, its real use is unknown. IMTU.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:11:21 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
> > else too.  This last Voyager with the "Omega" particles was laughable.
> > The entire Federation scared stiff over something slightly more potent
> > then an anti-matter bomb.  I felt it was overplayed.  They should have
> > had the Omega Molecule be something that destroyed parts of the
> > universe, in order to make it a real gut-wrenching threat.
>
> They *did* do that. Not only did it blow things up, it did *something*
> to "subspace" that made warp drives unusable in the area of effect.
>
> So the threat was eliminating *all* ftl travel and communication over
> most of the galaxy. That's quite a threat to a star faring civilization.
>
> How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
> that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
> sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
> weapon.

Well, what if you detonated them in a screen formation?  This would prevent
those pesky border  crossings, except through patrolled chokepoints.  FTL
Comms would have to pass through these chokepoints as well, which makes them
great as listening posts.  You cut off a sector and you control it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:29:19 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: to tech or not to tech

dberry types:
>>In Trek they used it to beat the bad guys and promptly *forgot* about it.
>That's nothing.  The TNG episode where Picard, Ro, and Chief Bartender
>Whoopi were returned to childhood by a transporter accident.  I spent most
>of the hour screaming "you've just invented practical immortality!!"  

   Don't forget the 'instant cloning' via transporter that produced the two
Will Rikers.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:32:34 +0000
From: "Paul Rocchi" <paul_rocchi@sns.ca>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #443

> Date: Tue, 28 Apr 1998 9:46:48 CDT
> From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
> Subject: GURPS Traveller playtest
> 
> Received this from the SJG Daily Illuminator:
> 
> > SJ Games News: GURPS Traveller -- Let the Playtest Commence!
> > 
> >     As of today ("Real Soon Now") the remaining chapters of the GURPS Traveller
> >    first draft have been posted to the playtest site, and the first draft
> >    is available for playtest, commentary, and dissection.
> > 
> >    The first files of the second GURPS Traveller release (tentatively titled
> >    Behind the Claw: The Spinward Marches Sourcebook) have arrived, and we
> >    expect to have it up by the end of the week.
> > 
> >    Pop over to the playtest site. We have room for more equipment descriptions
> >    than I counted on originally, and your comments and suggestions on what
> >    to include are welcome!
> > 
> >    -- Loren Wiseman
> 
> Two things:
> 1.	Finally, a Traveller publisher that posts things for playtesters...
> 2.	$15 a year to pay to be a playtester???  Ouch!
> 

1) SJG has always been good about letting people see what the future 
releases will be like, practically every GURPS book gets this sort of 
treatment. 

2) It's not JUST to be a playtester. It also gives access to web 
based discussion areas (Pyramid News), weekly updates on Pyramid 
Online (The web-based gaming magazine that replaces Pyramid after  
issue 30), Online chat with designers. Consider. A subscription to 
the Paper Pyramid alone would have cost you more. Pyramid Online will 
have GURPS Traveller articles from the word go.  The playtest files 
for all supplements will be available as they are completed. I'm sure 
we'll see online chates with Loren on GURPS Traveller, and I wouldn't 
be surprised if Marc Miller didn't show up for one or two.

In short, it's worth it.
Paul Rocchi  SNS Shared Network Services Inc.
Paul_Rocchi@sns.ca (Business)
procchi@Total.net (Personal)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:00:32 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: A question about Plasma Guns

>Does anyone have any idea on whether incoming fire from plasma guns
> could be intercepted by point defense weapons?
>Emperor's Arsenal says that plasma bolts are contained in a
>"meta-stable" magnetic field during flight, and that on impact this
>field collapses releasing the energy.

Hm, Well the '"meta-stable" magnetic field' (MSMF) is such a massive
handwave...

I would say that the field must resist some pretty huge forces already in
battlefield use and an EM pulse from a laser wouldnot provide enough excess
energy in the required form to disrupt the plasma bolt.  Hydrogen Plasma
will basically fly apart unless somehow contained, in fact it must be
contained in order to form (at least small quatities in atmosphere do).
Once formed there is nothing holding the plasma together except this "meta
stable" magnetic field (MSMF).

All I can imagine is thatt there must be a magnetic field technology which
allows the field to be 'projected' from the PG's muzzle outwards along the
path to the target.  This has scary implications.

Older rules seemed to assume inertia would hold the plasma together for the
travel time to the target and this is the interpretation that I favor...the
projectable magnetic field or MSMF just has too many implications (see
discussion titled "To Tech or not to Tech").

>Doesn't a powerful laser pulse generate an EM field in an atmosphere,
>if so would a PD laser,such as those in Emperor's Arsenal, be adequate?

A laser emits light, which is a form of electromagnetic (EM) radiation.
Any one kind of EM radiation may or may not react to any other form,
generally not.

>could this field rupture the magnetic bottle causing the bolt to
>dissipate prematurely?

I don't think so, but perhaps a custom made weapon of similar design to the
PG but without the plasma bolt could disrupt the MSMF.  Certainly an
ElectroMagnetic Pulse (EMP) probably would, but who wants to try since the
only way I know to create such a pulse is a nearby Nuclear Detonation.

Of copurse, at TL15 who's to say an EMP 'Gun' couldn't exist?

>How about a hail of superdense gauss slugs?

The plasma involved is at a guess not particularly dense.  Slugs would
probably go right through it without seriously affecting the damage
potential.


Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:04:55 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

At 05:47 PM 4/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
>at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!

..escorting a colony start up of lesbian Aslan who want to organize a
feudal technocracy..
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:13:23 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Ranks

At 03:53 PM 4/28/98 EDT, you wrote:

There's a badge worn on the left breast
>that is the insignia of Commandant.  I'd suspect the same thing for Chairman
>of the JCS, etc.

The little round thing on the left breast pocket?  that's the JCS badge..
all the service cheifs had them.

OT: On my first day in the Army, just after uniform issue and haircuts, my
reception platoon encounted General Wickam, the Chief of Staff.  He was
very nice to us, and we didn't know enough to be properly terrified.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 09:21:11 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)

Trek lost me completely when the stories ceased being about people and
became the "technobabble of the week" contest.

My favorite stories were always character driven.. "Family", the TNG
epeisode that followed "Best of Both Worlds", and the episode that had
Picard live out an entire lifetime in an alien culture, really stick with me.

Hell, the most popular episode of all time is "The City on the Edge of
Forever", a show thay had almost no SF elements beyond the intitial time
travel!
- --

+--------------------------------------+
|Douglas E. Berry    dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
+--------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given       |
|  only to the efficient."             |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, German Army |
+--------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:40:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #444

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Ian or Katts wrote:

> 
> James Pearson wrote ...
> 
> >During Monday's game, my players asked why they had to pay Cr 2000 
> >per passenger for life support.  I assume that this is predominantly 
> >to take care of oxygen in the ship.  If this is truly the case, and 
> >they  can skim water for fuel (their scout ship has a refinery) 
> >couldn't the Oxygen be converted for use?
> 
> My short answer is that a zero was accidentally added to the costs of
> running a Type III life support system (ie a normal ship life support
> system), so you should cut the cost down to Cr250 per person per fortnight
> for recycling the oxygen, changing the air filters, restocking the wet bars
> etc.
> 
> This change means you need to cut passenger charges by Cr 1750 or so to
> keep balanced.
> 
> Other theories include the Cr2000 is mostly compulsory insurance, or that
> it includes the cost of routine maintainence above and beyond the normal
> annual maintainence.

Food and stuff.  Restocking the wet bar.


Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:22:17 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules

> A 1g ship trying to scoop Jupiter had *better* be moving *well* above
> hypersonic. Or it'll never get out again.

But does that require hypersonic *streamlining?*  I have FFS2, but confess
I've never used it (nor thoroughly read through it).  Fuel skimming doesn't
have to go very low does it?  To require the streamlining on the hull?
Couldn't an original FFS "streamlined" Contra Grav ship moving at G velocities
not have to worry bout it? 
 
> "Slow" scooping has a lot of problems. Mostly because you have to go so
> deep in the atmosphere that you become subject to "weather" which, on a
> gas giant, is *not* fun.

Reminds me of some skimming rules i use.(and revised upon getting Supplement
5).

Roll for # of atmospheric buffeting incidents.  Requires one task roll for the
"basic" skimming operation and one for each buffeting incident.  Buffeting
incidents are  one diff mod higher (average becomes difficult, difficult
becomes formidable, etc etc)

AF w/ CG is an easy task of Pilot:Interface/Grav
AF w/o CG and SL w/ CG is an Average task
SL w/o CG and USL w/ CG is a Difficult task (no ocean refueling).  
USL w/o CG is Formidable [hasn't come up yet, and haven't considered the full
ramifications... I'm thinking "success" means basic failure, failure means
Catastrophic failure and Catastrophic failure means ship destroyed.]

Brilliant Lances (for size S craft).  
Basic Failure: a) Grappled craft can be torn free (10+ on 2D6);  b)Ship takes
1D6 major hits to the fuel tanks. (lose D20 m3 of fuel each);
c) Takes 1 minor hit to the manuever drive.

Catastrophic Failure: a) Grapple craft torn free on 6+ ; b) Ship takes 3D6
major hits to the fuel tanks (lose D20 m3 of fuel each); c) takes 2 minor hits
to the manuever drive.

Obviously I've adapted the buffetting and detailed effects from Supplement 5.
Before I just used the variable difficulties w/ the standard TNE skimming
rules.  Any thoughts?  Was anything like this done that I haven't seen?  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:22:19 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

> The main things you need to worry about are "meteor showers" like this,
> and solar flares. Flares require observation of the star to detect, but
> luckily the particles that do the damage are moving somewhat slower
> than light, so that you'll have minutes to hours of warning.

What kind of damage would these do to a ship?  In Traveller terms? 
 
> Flares tend to depend on sunspot cycles, which require that you have
> observed the star for decades to get the cycles figured out.

Inhabited systems would probably have observatories and sensors aimed that way
then, no?  Wouldn't that be part of a scout survey too?  There's no way other
than a decade long observation to figure out the cycles?  For example, scout
ship enters the system and begins a survey.  AEMS or PEMS won't be able to
tell at all if a flare is imminent?  What about a spot study of the star
(looks at the sunspots).  
 
> Meteor showers tend to occur when crossing the orbit of old comets. The
> density depends on what part of the orbit you cross (relative to the
> position of the comet).
> 
> These too require decades or even *centuries* of observations to be
> able to predict.

Couldn't they be detected by "seeing" them coming in?  On sensors, too?  I'm
sure most hi-pop systems will have a pretty mean sensors array as well as a
small network of probes and bases, no?  

> So a "newly settled" system is apt to learn about major flares, or
> major meteor showers the hard way. Settled systems will know in advance
> when such things are likely.

So wouldn't "newly settled" systems have a heavier scout and probe presence,
especially for the meteors?

> And could one of the astronomers tell us about what it'd be like being
> near things like T-Tauri stars (which as I recall have *monster*
> stellar winds).

What would stellar winds do to a ship?  "Blow" it off course? Cause damage?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:25:47 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Trav mini's

At 09:39 PM 4/28/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Query:
>  Does anyone know of any licensed 25mm Trav figures other than those
>produced by RAFM (discontinued but still available IIRC) and Grenadier
>(long discontinued, period).

Look at the figures avalible for Stragrunt II.. very Traveller.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #447
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, April 29 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 448



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

I Prefer (was Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans)
taboo (was Azhanti)
Subbies & Scouts & warships, Oh My!
Chariots of the Frogs!
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Changing the background
Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Changing the background
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Re: Uplift
Re: A New Free Trader
Re: Chariots of the Frogs!
[Fwd: Traveller Collection sale/Auction]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:05:51 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: I Prefer (was Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans)

Doug Berry wrote:

> At 05:47 PM 4/28/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
> >at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!
>
> ..escorting a colony start up of lesbian Aslan who want to organize a
> feudal technocracy..

...after they invade the Trojan Reach, because they want to pay less for 
starship life support....
 
  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 98 20:53 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: taboo (was Azhanti)

Moin Douglas,

> >Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
> >at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!
> 
> ..escorting a colony start up of lesbian Aslan who want to organize a
> feudal technocracy..

	I would replace jump gates as are they not traveller, and restart it :

	Virus infected pirate breeds, with jump capable fighters,
	launching faster than light rocks at drop tank equipped close
	escorts of a colony start up of lesbian Aslan psionic knights,
	who want to organize a feudal technocracy, in the former Regency
	after 1205.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:53:51 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Subbies & Scouts & warships, Oh My!

>>Which is exactly the point.  I find the idea that "ships aren't smaller,
>>the just can do what it took bigger ships to do" to be truly splitting
>>hairs.
>
>Touche. Yes, I hadn't looked at it that way. Of course, that only applies
>to transport ships, but then, transport ships are the only one that are
>significantly affected by drop tanks. OK, you're right, drop tanks will
>effectively allow smaller ships for the same job. Now give me a few
>examples of Traveller publications that will be invalidated by this fact.

  We know that warships won't be significantly affected directly by the
adoption of drop tanks elsewhere in the economy, except insomuch as the
commerce raiding of a d-tank dependent economy becomes more attractive.

  Scouts wouldn't be scouts if they were travelling along only the most
heavily used trade routes.

  And Subsidized cargo/liner vessels wouldn't be needed to maintain
communications between worlds with enough traffic to justify a profitable
d-tank servicing capability (or tanker station/jump point).

        Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 11:53:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Chariots of the Frogs!

>Subject: Re: Rule of Man TL! @ Terra
...
>>>All we need now is a good discussion of the Tech Level of the Rule of Man
...
>Well Steve, I have proof that the RoM was definately at or above TL25 at the
>time of the Night Fall. The only reason that the RoM fell at all was that
>the Terra Suoerbrains were flat out bored with playing with the "lesser
>beings".
>
>What? What proof you say... Well, I really can't tell you it's from
>something (insert name-drop-of-your choice) told me in confidence. However,
>you can take my word for it.... Really!

  Oh no! And what was Erik von Daniken studying Traveller for?
Does this mean that/ <fnord>
        TRANSMISSION TERMINATED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:17:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

>> Flares tend to depend on sunspot cycles, which require that you have
>> observed the star for decades to get the cycles figured out.
>Inhabited systems would probably have observatories and sensors aimed that way
>then, no?  Wouldn't that be part of a scout survey too?  There's no way other
>than a decade long observation to figure out the cycles?  For example, scout
>ship enters the system and begins a survey.  AEMS or PEMS won't be able to
>tell at all if a flare is imminent?  What about a spot study of the star
>(looks at the sunspots).  

This is certainly true - it'd be more fair to say that flares occur when
there are lots of sunspots, so by counting current sunspots on the star you
can have a reasonable idea what the flare probabilities are - especially
since the Imperium has a huge database of millenia of observations of 
hundreds or thousands of stars. Even now we can make predictions about the 
short-term likelihood of major flares and issue "flare alerts" based on
detailed solar observations (I believe there's one in effect right now.)

>> Meteor showers tend to occur when crossing the orbit of old comets. The
>> density depends on what part of the orbit you cross (relative to the
>> position of the comet).
>> These too require decades or even *centuries* of observations to be
>> able to predict.
>Couldn't they be detected by "seeing" them coming in?  On sensors, too?  I'm
>sure most hi-pop systems will have a pretty mean sensors array as well as a
>small network of probes and bases, no?  

Again, you're right - you can just "see" the stream by imaging with good
sensors (ideally from above the plane of the stellar system in question)
looking for a dust excess and/or for the few larger objects  present in the
stream. 
Time-consuming, but it won't take centuries.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:22:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

>> And could one of the astronomers tell us about what it'd be like being
>> near things like T-Tauri stars (which as I recall have *monster*
>> stellar winds).
>What would stellar winds do to a ship?  "Blow" it off course? Cause damage?

Stellar winds are just diffuse gas - no effect on a ship, except for reducing
sensor range by a point or two.

T-Tauri systems and other young stars most likely have a protoplanetary/
accretion disk orbiting around them, though, which is somewhat nastier;
it'd have a fairly high dust concentration - to the point where you might
take significant dust hits on exposed surface fixtures (sensors and deployed
weapons) every hour or two when travelling at any significant velocity. 
There would also be a fair amount of planetersimals/meteoroids/asteroids/
protocomets - junk on its way to planethood in increasing sizes; collisions
would be rare but not impossible, although sensors should generally be able
to see junk coming in time to avoid it (unless all your sensors have been
scoured off by the dust...) 

Some young stars will also experience very massive flares when the 
accretion disk suddenly dumps a load of material onto the star - massive 
enough and bright enough in X-rays that they could represent a hazard to
unarmoured ships, unprotected crew, and non-fib computers.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 13:28:14 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

                           MAJOR SOLAR FLARE ALERT

                          ISSUED: 19:05 UT, 29 APRIL

                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

                        *  Moderate Impact Possible  *


MAJOR ENERGETIC EVENT SUMMARY:

              ( All times are valid for the UT day of 29 Apr )

Flare Size: Class M6.89/3B at 16:37 UTC
  Location: S17E21 (Region 8210)
  Tenflare: 100 sfu at 17:10 UTC. Duration: 7 minutes
    Sweeps: Unknown (too early)
 SEC Start: 1606 UTC, SEC Max: 16:37 UTC, SEC End: 16:39 UTC

STD-Derived Flare Statistics:

BEGIN (XRAY)   MAX  (XRAY)   END  (XRAY)   DURATION   INTEG. FLUX   SWF DUR.
- ------------   -----------   -----------   --------   -----------   --------
 1611 (B2.6)   1637 (M6.89)  1731 (C9.8)   080 MIN.   0.139 J/m^2    067 min

NOTES:
     The derived flare end-times above are not based on the half-power point
     system. For major M and X-class events, the ending time is determined
     when x-rays first drop below M-class levels.  Integrated flux values
     shown are computed from the indicated beginning time to the listed
     ending time. SWF (Short Wave Fadeout) durations are based on the time
     x-rays spend above M-class levels and do not account for potential
     lingering ionospheric effects.

SYNOPSIS:

     A major class M6.89 flare (large optical flare estimated as a 3B) was
observed at 16:37 UTC.  The optical counterpart is still in-progress.  This
ribbon flare spanned the predominantly north-south inversion line along the
west side of the main spot.  Fairly extensive post-flare loops were visible
in off-band H-alpha imagery.  A strong short wave fadeout was observed in
conjunction with this event, affecting frequencies in up to about 15 MHz and
lasting approximately 1 hour on frequencies near 10 MHz.  Residual post-flare
fading is in-progress.

     This event was associated with a large halo coronal mass ejection.  More
details will become available over the next few hours.

     Consult our Daily Reports for more details.  You can subscribe to these
reports via e-mail using the form at:

                http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/sublists.html

     Anyone can observe these significant solar events and the ensuing
Earth-bound impacts in realtime using the software available at:
http://solar.uleth.ca/solar/www/swarm.html


POTENTIAL TERRESTRIAL IMPACT ASSESSMENT:

     The following tables depict the preliminary estimated potential for
terrestrial impacts in various categories.  These tables are valid only for
the flare described and do not include assessments for previous influential
flare events.

                      ----------------------------------
                      POTENTIAL MAGNITUDE OF DISTURBANCE
                      ----------------------------------
                                 HIGH : 20 %
                             MODERATE : 40 %
                                  LOW : 30 %
                                 NONE : 10 %
                      ----------------------------------
                      OVERALL ARRIVAL PROBABILITY : 70 %


              ESTIMATED WINDOW OF SHOCK ARRIVAL IF SHOCK ARRIVES
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |  MINIMUM   |    EARLY     |  PREFERRED  |     LATE     |  MAXIMUM   |
   |------------|--------------|-------------|--------------|------------|
   | 01/1500 UT |  01/2230 UT  | 02/1230 UT  |  03/0100 UT  | 03/1800 UT |
   |    MAY.    |     MAY.     |    MAY.     |     MAY.     |    MAY.    |
   |------------|---------------------|---------------------|------------|
   |    10 %    |  40%  PROBABILITY   |  40% PROBABILITY    |    10 %    |
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------


- ---------------------------------       ----------------------------------
  POTENTIAL FOR >10 MEV PROTONS           POTENTIAL FOR >100 MEV PROTONS
- ---------------------------------       ----------------------------------
    HIGH FLUX :  5 %  > 100 PFU             HIGH FLUX :  5 %  > 100 PFU
MODERATE FLUX : 25 %  >  10 PFU         MODERATE FLUX :  5 %  >  10 PFU
     LOW FLUX : 35 %  >   1 PFU              LOW FLUX : 10 %  >   1 PFU
         NONE : 40 %  <=  1 PFU                  NONE : 80 %  <=  1 PFU
- ----------------------------------      ----------------------------------
OVERALL ARRIVAL PROBABILITY: 20%        OVERALL ARRIVAL PROBABILITY: 15 %

- ---------------------------------       ---------------------------------
EST. POTENTIAL GEOMAGNETIC IMPACT       EST. POTENTIAL IONOSPHERIC IMPACT
- ---------------------------------       ---------------------------------
       SEVERE STORM : 15 %                 LOW LATITUDES : LOW - MODERATE
        MAJOR STORM : 25 %              MIDDLE LATITUDES : MODERATE
        MINOR STORM : 40 %                HIGH LATITUDES : MODERATE
     ACTIVE OR LESS : 20 %               POLAR LATITUDES : MODERATE
- ---------------------------------       ---------------------------------
 PROBABLE SI ASSOCIATION : 70 %       ESTIMATED GLOBAL IMPACT: MODERATE

ESTIMATED POTENTIAL DURATION OF DISTURBANCE IF IT ARRIVES: 24 HOURS

EST. PROBABILITY FOR GEOSYNCHRONOUS SATELLITE MAGNETOPAUSE CROSSINGS: 40%


                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:38:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!

  Is it just my imagination, or aren't pirates going to be
incontrovertibly, 100% SOL as far as vessels jumping from a
tanker/station point are concerned?

  Also, a vessel so designed is going to be a bitch to refit
to function as an independent raider.

  Even hijackers (as distinct from pirates) are going to have
problems, given the small window to reprogram the jump before
the ship is committed to arriving with dry tanks at a police
checkpoint.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:07:33 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)

> My favorite stories were always character driven.. "Family", the TNG
> epeisode that followed "Best of Both Worlds", and the episode that had
> Picard live out an entire lifetime in an alien culture, really stick with me.
> 


I couldn't agree more..Or how about the episode close to that, where
Picard goes home to Earth to resolve things with his own family?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:20:30 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:10:58 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
<tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> > Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> > > Besides, I'm not (in this case)
> > >advocating a change but the retention of an already-existing feature.
> 
> > Well, lets be clear, they are, in fact, a later addition.  And
> > they also are some thing where you either have to arbitrarily limit
> > their consequences or introduce greater changes than simply removing
> > them.

> Of course they where introduced later. They were a new invention that came
> along in the late Imperium. Are you saying that you want a static
> non-changing universe to play in, where all things are defined and there
> is nothing to suprise you?

Of course not.  Nothing in what I posted said I did.  What I don't want
is changes that accidentally screw with fundamental portions of the
background because they weren't thought through.

> > Well, I couldn't disagree more, but I've already said why.  I will just
> > note the your arguements that it won't change the fundamentals also
> > runs up against the point you yourself have argued, that you can
> > never know all the ramifications when you first write something.

> The ramifications never had a chance to play themself out, as the Imperium
> collapsed before drop tanks had a chance to change anything.

That is hard to accept.  The implications are straightforward and
if the factions had time to research new AI Viruses they could have
explored such a fundamental advantage.  In fact, the implications of
drop tanks would have been obvious in the decade or two that passed
between when they introduced and and the rebellion and they would have
been of much greater interest than they were presented as having.

> > Which there would be great incentive to put along all significant
> > trades routes (which would tend to group travel into certain
> > routes which would be a big change, in and of itself).
 
> But that would also make space travel much more vounerable. Drop tanks are
> only usable in the large, well defined systems.

Well all systems are "well defined" and they will also be available in
systems
along routes between large systems.  As to their vulnerablility, the
fact
that military strategy is affected by shipping that is less scattered
but goes along well defined routes is going give even more ramifacations
(and even more changes to the background) for both offense and defense.

> Fuel has to plentiful,
> tools, mechanics, engineers, stable economies has to present.   I don't want
> to jump to a system to find out that the only mechanic my firm had in
> employment has died, and that because of a small malfunction I have to
> wait a couple of weeks before the drop tanks can be transported out to my
> ship.

Hogwash.  You are presenting the straw man that the only alternatives
are a large system or an instalation with one person and no ability
to repair anything that breaks down.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:26:42 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)

>Trek lost me completely when the stories ceased being about people and
>became the "technobabble of the week" contest.
>
>My favorite stories were always character driven.. "Family", the TNG
>epeisode that followed "Best of Both Worlds", and the episode that had
>Picard live out an entire lifetime in an alien culture, really stick with me.
>
>Hell, the most popular episode of all time is "The City on the Edge of
>Forever", a show thay had almost no SF elements beyond the intitial time
>travel!

Hurrah! This is SF, not the effect itself, but the implications, emotions,
and life stories of those affected.

The success of that episode with Picard living another's life was set
firmly on the shoulders of his excellent acting ability.  If anyone caught
his "Captain Ahab" in the recent remake of Moby Dick you would know what I
mean.  Or perhaps you may have seen him and several other TNG stars in
"Every Good Boy Deserves Favour" where both he and Brent Spiner Shone (this
was several years ago).

I find myself attempting to create situations for the characters in my
little troupe (of Players) to react to.  I want the characters (and
players) to be moved, shaken and suprised.  I want them to *behave* like
people in the situation as given.  I want to be a narrator for a story
which they play out; tragedy or comedy.

I also find myself getting tired of the "problem to solve" scenarios.  I
think some no win situations might be needed or desired to break up the
idea that every challenge can be overcome.

Random thoughts spew after a day of dissecting a massive spreadsheet cell
by cell so it can be 'fixed'.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:35:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Tue, 28 Apr 1998 23:09:56 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>   Seeings as there've been no more requests for RoM TL retrospectives,
> can I take that as an invitation to re-clarify the various patrolling
> and security issues as they relate to the piracy thread?

<Mouth agape in horror...  Nooooooooooooooooooooo..........>

> I'm fairly
> certain that I'm capable of running the numbers on canon or reasonable
> economics, picking out discrepancies, and interpreting the results.
> Statistical analysis by innuendo is notoriously inaccurate.

Well, I don't recall any of your analyses, but my view is that
in general they can serve to point up questions, but unless
the issue simple, they are always based on enough assumptions
that they server to quantitate one point of view rather than
prove it.

>   No, but you can certainly explore the ramifications to a large
> extent, and I think it's fair to say that to the extent that the
> various Traveller-related lists (and I'd never even heard of the
> obviously somewhat secretive Historic TML Flamewar Re-Enactment
> Society) have a lot of people with various experiences, knowledge,
> and skill sets (and spare time to kill, obviously), that most of
> these things can be refined about as well as GDW or DGP did in
> their efforts to meet dead-lines and bank payments.

It can be explored to _some_ extent.  But if you look at the
track history of even professional writers of backgrounds
and other groups full of knowledgable and diverse people,
then you have to come the conclusion that you are fooling
yourself if you think you can be sure of catching even 
all of the major ramifications.  It is very difficult 
to see them all because of how they ripple out.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:41:34 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

At 01:28 PM 29/04/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>
>                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>                           MAJOR SOLAR FLARE ALERT
>
>                          ISSUED: 19:05 UT, 29 APRIL
>
>                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>
>                        *  Moderate Impact Possible  *
>
>
>MAJOR ENERGETIC EVENT SUMMARY:
>
>              ( All times are valid for the UT day of 29 Apr )
>
>Flare Size: Class M6.89/3B at 16:37 UTC
>  Location: S17E21 (Region 8210)
>  Tenflare: 100 sfu at 17:10 UTC. Duration: 7 minutes
>    Sweeps: Unknown (too early)
> SEC Start: 1606 UTC, SEC Max: 16:37 UTC, SEC End: 16:39 UTC

What do UT and UTC stand for?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:53:56 -0400
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift

>The planet seems to be close to Terran/Sylean norms, and is
>biologically compatible with humanity - no need for shugilii
>here!  It's balkanized, but not as fragmented as it might have
>been; there are only a few small countries, and several large
>empires - including a couple that follow the British/Dutch model,
>and a couple that follow the Spanish model.  You've been
>fortunate enough to land in a British/Dutch empire, and with a
>little help from a Hiver TL16 translating computer coupled with
>your ship's computer, you've managed to establish communication
>with the locals.  They're very insistent that you will help them,
>to whatever extent you can, to build starships of their own - and
>they understand that it will take years - even decades, possibly
>many of them, to be able to do it.  Right now, they're at about
>the same TL as the US and England were in 1750.


I would find a country in the same condition as colonial America or Great
Britain and open a company.
I would then use my advanced technical knowledge to produce products that
can be produced that TL and
turn a profit. Within that company estabilsh a R&D facility (like a 18th
century version of Edision's Lab) to work on
advanced tech product using the database as a guide to avoid deadends. Then
over the years encourage people with good
ideas to leave the company to found their own startups producing goods. Do
this putting out venture capital reap some profits and then
turn it over to the people starting it.

The reason for this is that you have a small starship crew and that means
there a limited amount of viewpoints to figure how to apply
the tech you know to this world. What you want is to have a large amount of
people you can working indepently working on advance so that
a few blind alleys doesn't stall the overall effort. The main company hold
the tech database like a patent but does not use as a basis to estabilsh a
monopoly. Instead you want to say something "Hey, George, you doing some
fine work in refining, how about you take that bauxite idea of yours and
form a company in exchange say for 5% of the gross. You will want to look at
this (handing him some papers on aluminin) and work with Harold's electric
company on this. I can probably bring them in for another 2%.

You keep doing this and do not go with exclusive lisence or anything that
will build a monopoly in the begining and you will have a wildfire of
technological growth started.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:36:30 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

And this is still something I have a problem with! If an open air raft can
reach orbit (and land I assume) on CG, why does a ship have to be
streamlined at all?! I can understand streamlineing for performance reasons,
but not as arequirement to drift into the atmoshere of any planet and drift
about on CG while the compressors work.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.
- -----Original Message-----
From: The Akins <igor@ames.net>
To: TML <Traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader


>Bob Kondrk wrote:
>
>> Hiya everyone. One thing did jump out at me:
>>
>> >   Tons: 180std (SL Wedge _Hypersonic_).
>>
>> Would your really need hypersonic streamlining for a 1-G freighter?
>> IMHO, it would be a better bet to save money, volume and surface
>> area and go for transonic instead? Otherwise, I think it looks fine.
>> :)
>
>You're right, except that in FF&S2 hypersonic streamlining is required
>for gas giant refueling...which I wanted this ship to be capable of.
>
>If I didn't want frontier refueling (for use in established systems) I'd
>cut the streamlining down to subsonic, lose the scoops, and remove the
>purification plant...it would free up maybe 15 or more displacement
>tons.
>
>--
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| Andrew Akins                                                       |
>| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
>| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
>| IMTU: tc++(**) ru+ ge 3i+ jt- au+ ls+ kk+ hi+ as+ va+ dr+ so+ zh+  |
>|       vi+ da+                                                      |
>| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
>|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e+ h---- r+++ y++++                           |
>+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:50:56 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Chariots of the Frogs!

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, April 29, 1998 4:03 PM
Subject: Chariots of the Frogs!



>>What? What proof you say... Well, I really can't tell you it's from
>>something (insert name-drop-of-your choice) told me in confidence.
However,
>>you can take my word for it.... Really!
>
>  Oh no! And what was Erik von Daniken studying Traveller for?
>Does this mean that/ <fnord>
>        TRANSMISSION TERMINATED
>

MY GAWD!! I've said too much! Now they'll be comin#$%))^^

<fnord>
           TRANSMITION TERMINATED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 17:17:16 -0500
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Traveller Collection sale/Auction]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- --------------5C217155D4C385DCFBB4728E
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Saw this posted on the news group, thought you might be interested

- --------------5C217155D4C385DCFBB4728E
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From: witepapr@access.net.au
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Subject: Traveller Collection sale/Auction
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 05:11:05 GMT
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Xref: reader1.cleveland.iagnet.net rec.games.frp.marketplace:108695

I am selling/auctioning off my entire Traveller collection! Some items
may be uncommon, so jump in. I have quoted MINIMUM prices on all items
and will sell at those prices, BUT reserve the right to sell at a
HIGHER price if someone really wants something and is prepared to make
a higher offer to secure the sale, and i also reserve the right to
withdraw all items from sale if sufficient interest is not shown in
the sale as a whole.

******IMPORTANT NOTES ON PRICES AND PAYMENT******
I am in AUSTRALIA, but because most potential buyers will be from the
USA, prices quoted below are in US DOLLARS, AND SHIPPING CHARGES WILL
BE ADDITIONAL TO THE ADVERTISED PRICE.

BUT (BUT!!!), I will require final payment by International Money
Order in AUSTRALIAN DOLLARS, so as to avoid conversion fees at my end.
FOR EXAMPLE, something advertised at $10 US will convert to about
$15.50 AUS, plus shipping (air or sea, your choice)

CONDITION OF ITEMS
Unless otherwise stated, all books are at least VGC to Mint, most are
VGC to Excellent (I used to play with p'copies to avoid wear on the
originals), but boxes will show some scuff wear.

OFFERS
Offers are to be made by e-mail to me at witepapr@access.net.au no
later than 14 May 1998, clearly stating your offer for the item and
its correct description, if you want to pay for AIR or SEA mail
shipping rates, plus your e-mail address so I may respond - NOTE I may
NOT be able to acknowledge each and every e-mail bid; just assume if
it is not bounced back to you that I received it!
I will contact the successful bidders asap after 14 May 1998 with
final cost including shipping rates.

Kim, Australia

ITEMS FOR SALE
are from several sources, as follows:

Game Designers Workshop

Traveller

Deluxe Traveller Set - boxed (box worn and has repairs, but still
quite presentable, books are used, but still at least VGC, maps are
used and weak along folds but still very clean o'wise
                Book 0		Introduction to Traveller		
                Book 1		Characters and Combat		 
                Book 2		Starships		              
                Book 3		Worlds and Adventures			
                GDW Sheet map of Spinward Marches

                GDW Sheet Map of Imperium and surrounding space
$50 for complete boxed set

Book 4		Mercenary				$15
Book 5		High Guard				$15
Book 6		Scouts					$15

Intro. Adventure	The Imperial Fringe		             $10
Adventure 1		The Kinunir			$15
Adventure 2		Research Station Gamma	$15
Adventure 3		Twilights Peak			$15
Adventure 4		Leviathan			$15
Adventure 5		Trillion Credit Squadron	             $15
Adventure 6		Expedition to Zhodane		$15
Adventure 7		Broadsword			$15
Adventure 8		Prison Planet			$15
Adventure 9		Nomads of the World Ocean	$15
Adventure 10		Safari Ship			$15
Adventure 11		Murder on Arcturis Station	$15
Adventure 12		Secret of the Ancients		$15
Adventure 13		Signal GK			$15

Double Adventure 1	Annic Nova/Shadows		$15
Double Adventure 2	Across the Bright Face/
				Mission on Mithril	$15
Double Adventure 3	Argon Gambit/Death Station	$15
Double Adventure 4	Marooned/Marooned Alone	$15
Double Adventure 6	Divine Intervention/		$15
				Night of Conquest

Supplement 1		1001 Characters			$12
Supplement 2		Animal Encounters		$12
Supplement 3		Spinward Marches		$12
Supplement 4		Citizens of the Imperium	             $12
Supplement 6		76 Patrons			$12
Supplement 8		Library Data A-M		             $12
Supplement 9		Fighting Ships			$12
Supplement 10		The Solomani Rim		$12
Supplement 11		Library Data N-Z		             $12
Supplement 12		Forms and Charts		$12
Supplement 13		Veterans			$12

Supplement 5		Lightning Class Cruisers  	See AHL set, below
	

Special Supplement 1	Merchant Prince			$7
Special Supplement 2	Exotic Atmospheres (two copies)	$7each
Special Supplement 3	Missiles (with Errata Sheet 	$7
			hand-annotated by Marc Miller)

Alien Module 2		K'Kree (mint)			$20
Adventure Module	Tarsus				$20
Adventure Module 	The Traveller Adventure		$25
Adventure Module	Spinward Marches Campaign 	$25
Adventure Module	Beltstrike			$20
Book			The Atlas of the Imperium	$25
Boxed Module/Game	Azhanti High Lightning		$75
Boxed Game		Fifth Frontier War 		$50 (may already be sold, but express an interest if          	(map in mint condition, Counters bagged)                    you wish)
Boxed Miniatures Rules	Striker, VCG, complete		$30 

Jo. of the Travellers Aid Society

Best of JTAS Vol.1					$15
JTAS   6 - 12   					            $10 each
JTAS   13 - 24						$7 each

Traveller Items from suppliers other than GDW

FASA

Adventures	Legend of the Sky Raiders		$12 
Adventures	Trail of the Sky Raiders		             $12   
Adventures	Fate of the Sky Raiders			$12
     all three above books excellent with mint condition original maps

Adventures	Uragyadin of the Seven Pillars		$12
Adventures	Rescue on Galatea			$12
Adventures	Ordeal by Eshaar			$12
Adventures	Harrensa Project/Stazhlekh Report	$12

Ship Plans	Vlezhdatl - Zhodani Strike Cruiser              $15
		(book and deck plans)
Ship Plans	Aslan Mercenary Ships			$25
		(no box, 2 Booklets, huge deck 
		plan sheets, crew counters)
Supplement	FCI Consumer Guide (equipment etc.)	$12
Booklet		Far Traveller No. 1 			$15
		Far Traveller No. 2			$15
Booklet		High Passage No. 5			$15

Games Workshop UK

Ship Plans Book		IISS Ship Files 		
(may already be sold, but if not, offers of $20) (rare?)

Paranoia Press

Star Map Atlas		The Vanguard Reaches 		$15
			(book and folded map)(mint)
Star Map Atlas		The Beyond  			$15
			(book and folded map)(mint)		
Module			Scouts and Assassins 		$15
			(book plus ship plans)(mint)
Module			SORAG 			$15
			(Zhodane Secret Service)(mint)
Module			Merchants and Merchandise(mint) $15

Gamelords

Book			Wanted: Adventurers  (mint)	$12
Book			Lee's Guide to Interstellar 
					Adventure(mint)	$12
Book			Startown Liberty  (mint)	$12  
(may already be sold, but if not, offers of $20)
							   	

Non Traveller Miscellaneous

Tractics		WW2 Miniatures Rules, authors include Gary Gyjax		$30???
Starguard, 3rd edition	Interstellar Infantry Rules	$20???
Streetwise No. 1 & 2	Rare Australian Traveller 	$25 each
			clone of JTAS

GDW Boxed games	    (both are VGC, complete counters)             
Third World War						$20
Arctic Front  						$20




- --------------5C217155D4C385DCFBB4728E--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #448
**********************************

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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 449



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives
Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #448
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Subject: Weapon/Social modifiers
Re: Spin habs (sorta)
re: Spin habs in combat
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
re: Spin habs in combat
Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: GURPS Traveller playtest
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Modular Cutter
Re: Changing the background
Re: TML Searchable archives
Fusion Reactors and shielding
Military Humor
Re: Fusion Reactors and shielding
trav eras
Name generator [was:Re: Product Review]
Re: UPP Size Code?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >
> >Flare Size: Class M6.89/3B at 16:37 UTC
> >  Location: S17E21 (Region 8210)
> >  Tenflare: 100 sfu at 17:10 UTC. Duration: 7 minutes
> >    Sweeps: Unknown (too early)
> > SEC Start: 1606 UTC, SEC Max: 16:37 UTC, SEC End: 16:39 UTC
> 
> What do UT and UTC stand for?

Universal Time.  It used to be known as Greenwich Mean Time.

Keven

==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:28:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

[My last post to Hans on this issue.  It has clearly reached the end of
the
road of useful discussion.  Hans had been engaging in generalities and I
have seen this as OK because I saw it as time to summarize and wrap this
up.   However, now Hans is ignoring that I have answered specifics and
the past and challenging with points we have already beaten to death.
I don't have time to go arond in circles and if Hans wants to use this
to "declare victory", so be it.  Especially since I have little patients
for posts that mere slams on the other persons position.]

Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:38 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
> Of course, to be consistent you'd then have to be a warm advocate of
> jump torpedoes, because they were mentioned in the first edition of the
> original 3 black books and were subsequently dropped (causing a lot of
> underserved abuse to be heaped on the heads of the authors of _Leviathan_
> over the years.

I find this hard to believe.  I have a very early version they don't
appear in.  Even if they were, it only shows the utility of dropping
bad ideas before they cause to much trouble.

> >And they also are some thing where you either have to arbitrarily limit
> >their consequences or introduce greater changes than simply removing them.
> 
> Greater changes to future products, yes. But to compensate you wouldn't
> have to invalidate all the products published in the last 20 years where
> they are mentioned, nor the I-don't-know-how-many regular and TCS campaigns
> that people have run in the last 20 years where they have been used.

Hardly.  Those products that even mention drop tanks are hardly unusable.
As to people's campaigns, you just leave them as an optional rule with
a warning about the implications.

> >>Besides, drop tanks does not
> >>change the fundamentals of space travel.
> > 
> >Well, I couldn't disagree more, but I've already said why.
> 
> You've repeatedly made a vague, unsupported claim that....
[more of the same.]

And from where I sit, you have made a dubious assumptions to come up with
a simplistic analysis and even that showed fundamental changes to the costs
of the basis for all shiping  and hence for the entire economy and the basis
for politcal and social interaction.  You have also based this on the unsupportable
(by your own admission) that you will be able to see all the ramifications.
Your claims have done nothing to address the fundamental point that a
change of the magnitude to the basis for economy and social and politcal
interaction can't help but fundamentally change society.

See, isn't it easier to make sweeping generalizations about the other
person's position rather than post real arguements?  Now you are certainly
going to be all outraged that you didn't say any such things and that
this is totally inaccurate.  How do you think others feel when you post
things like this?  Even if the points have been hashed over (and they have),
I'm content to let others who have been reading what we post decide for
themselves who has been more persuasive rather than have to make these sort
of attacks.

> Actually, I've conceeded that you can never be sure that some unforseen
> ramification won't raise it's ugly head and bite you on the ass, in the
> same way that you can never _prove_ a negative. But I can consider the
> possible ramifications for a while, and if neither I, nor the opponents
> of the idea are able to come up with anything more concrete than a vague
> apprehension that "You can never be sure!", then I can consider the idea
> innocent until proven guilty.

This isn't trial.  The fact is that ramification won't come up and
screw up your background on the ass if you a careful to not make
fundamental changes.  Conversely, if you look at setting that have
introduced such changes, they almost always had such problems.  To
me, that is a good lesson that such changes are to be avoided unless
you have a good reason.  I don't see a good reason here.

> >>Eliminating the need for all ships everywhere to carry their own fuel would
> >>be a fairly big change, I suppose (though not nearly as big as, say,
> >>requiring them to travel in convoy in order to protect them from enemy
> >>raiders),
> > 
> >Much bigger.
> 
> Wow! That's a nice, knock-down argument for you! I can't believe I didn't
> think of that myself! OK, you've convinced me!

You are being hypocritical.  Read why I am responding to.  You simply
asserst that it is a big change but not as big as other changes that
have been discussed.  I simply asserted that is was bigger.

> Try reading what I'm asking. I'm challinging you to provide concrete
> examples, something you seem remarkably reluctant to do.

Hogwash.  I have provided examples and responded to your analysis.  You
want me to reiterate my arguements so you can attack them with the
same old counter arguements and keep beating a dead horse.  I have
a life and don't have time for these games.  If you really want
to be able to claim victory because I won't go around in circles
(yet again in yet another thread) then be my guest.

> BTW. so far you've done preciously little to convince anyone that your
> view has any validity.

I'm willing to stand on what I've writting.  I'm even willing to do it
without making slams against the other person.  You appear to be
unwilling to do this.

[More of the same....]

> >Yet all I've gotten from you on this is attempts to ridicule my points.
> 
> I'm not trying to ridicule your points.

When it comes to the point on wether political changes are really the 
most fundamental, all you have _ever_ don't is call it ridiculous
and splitting hairs.

> In other words, you dismissed my counter-arguments by repeating your basic
> assumption. Ridiculous...

Well, I figured if you were going to do it....

> >Hardly.  As I pointed out in text you deleted, it is not unusual for
> >technologies to be fundamentally limited (especially ones that involve
> >some trick like a high throughput device might).
> 
> I deleted it because I had already conceded that I'd accept it if the
> other problems could be explained away. I still wouldn't consider them
> very plausible, but since they are concievable, I didn't see any
> reason to continue discussing them.

Then don't attack my possition as if the point didn't exist.
 ______________________________
 summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:32:30 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1998 #448

>What do UT and UTC stand for?
Universal and coordinatred universal time. For all practcical purposes 
they mean "Greenwhich mean time". UT (more properly, UT1) is defined from
the rotation of the earth and positions of stars; UTC is defined from
atomic clocks and is the one that periodically has leap seconds added to it.

(Don't even ask me about TDT, TAI, ET, UT0, TCG, and TCB...Although basic
timekeeping in the Imperium is probably straightforward, and there are 
astronomical markers that can be used to synchronize clocks, nonetheless
memorizing all the different acronyms for Imperial time systems must give
young astronomers major headaches.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:44:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

At 06:16 PM 29/04/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> >
>> >Flare Size: Class M6.89/3B at 16:37 UTC
>> >  Location: S17E21 (Region 8210)
>> >  Tenflare: 100 sfu at 17:10 UTC. Duration: 7 minutes
>> >    Sweeps: Unknown (too early)
>> > SEC Start: 1606 UTC, SEC Max: 16:37 UTC, SEC End: 16:39 UTC
>> 
>> What do UT and UTC stand for?
>
>Universal Time.  It used to be known as Greenwich Mean Time.

I suspected as much, but I'd never struck this UTC thing before. The
military still use GMT, though they have alphanumeric names for the
different time zones (GMT is Zulu, I think).

Why did they change?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:51:53 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Subject: Weapon/Social modifiers

Jim A. Clem types:
>My PbEM group has just run into an interesting situation involving
>weapons and Social status.  Here are the Social modifiers I have created
>to allow Social to be modified by weapons.................
>Revolver:  +1 Social
>10mm+ bore:  +1 Social
>Semi auto pistol:  +2 Social
>Gauss weapon:  +3 Social
>Shotgun:  +4 Social
>Auto weapon:  +5 Social
>Plasma/Fusion :  DO WHAT EVER YOU WANT!!!!  JUST DON'T SHOOT ME!!!!!!!!!!!
><grin>

    This is exactly how it social status in Prison was explaned to me by a
college buddy (who was back in college because of a stint as a Corrections
Officer in a NYS Maximum Security Prison).

If you had the .38 revolver, the population still called you [censored].
If you had a AR-15, your were "Mr. [censored]."
If you had the 12 gauge pump shotgun loaded with double-O buckshot, you
were "Mr. [censored], SIR!"



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
      Smith&Wesson -- The Ultimate "Point & Click" User interface.
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:02:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Spin habs (sorta)

Howdy!

Joe Petit write:
> I was wondering about using gyros to rotate a ship in zero g's...
> If you have a couple coaxial counter rotating gyros at the centerline of
> the ship, the rotational acceleration balances out and you can "push"
> off one gyro to rotate the other, thus your ship doesn't roll (or it
> does roll by accelerating one gyro more than the other).  Now if you
> shift these gyros perpendicular to their axes, the rotational
> accelerations (Flemming's left hand law ?) appear to go opposite
> directions at opposite sides of the center of gravity for the ship.
> Would this be enough to yaw your ship around?  It seems like an
> excellent method of maneuvering your ship without orientation rockets. I
> suspect however that there needs to be an actual acceleration to for the
> gyros to act on.  If that's the case, you can use your main thrusters
> and gyros to orient your ship in any direction.
> 
You can just push on the gyro; I think some satellites are oriented using
gyros as the active element. It ought to work for ship twisting, given
sufficient gyro mass. It works to keep a 50,000 ton ocean liner or
battleship upright in sea conditions that would otherwise involve 
quaint rolling motions.

yours,
Herveus

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:03:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
>>need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
>>habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
>>in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress  on
>>the structure.

You don't need a flywheel. Set up magnets in the rotating section (lets
call it a rotor) and in the stationary section (lets call it a stator) and
use the whole spin assembly as a generator (like regenerative breaking) and
convert the kinetic energy into electrical, which you then use to charge up
your screens and HPGs in 2300....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:58:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net> wrote:

>What is full thrust?

A Starship Combat Minitures game, adopted by B5 RPG.

>- --
>Robert the Lonely

Why is Robert Lonely?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:19:01 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, SD Mooney wrote:
> shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
> >>Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
> >>need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
> >>habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
> >>in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress  on
> >>the structure.
> 
> You don't need a flywheel. Set up magnets in the rotating section (lets
> call it a rotor) and in the stationary section (lets call it a stator) and
> use the whole spin assembly as a generator (like regenerative breaking) and
> convert the kinetic energy into electrical, which you then use to charge up
> your screens and HPGs in 2300....

The only down side of this is that both sections will end up rotating.
In space, there is no "stationary" and you Newton rules... if you have
a spinning section you need to slow down or speed up while keeping
another section non-rotating, you'll need either some kind of thruster
or a flywheel to store that rotational momentum in.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:17:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop tank system implementation (long)

>Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:20:30 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Changing the background
>
>Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:10:58 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
...
>> The ramifications never had a chance to play themself out, as the Imperium
>> collapsed before drop tanks had a chance to change anything.
>
>That is hard to accept.  The implications are straightforward and
>if the factions had time to research new AI Viruses they could have
>explored such a fundamental advantage.  In fact, the implications of
>drop tanks would have been obvious in the decade or two that passed
>between when they introduced and and the rebellion and they would have
>been of much greater interest than they were presented as having.

  Well, there are two periods to consider, obviously, specifically
pre-Rebellion and during the war.

  We are forced to assume (if d-tanks are functional) that the mega
corps didn't institute wide-spread d-tank operations, certainly not
on the periphery, anyway. The TNS item about the destroyed liner
might have a lot to do with it - the liability implications might
have encouraged them to wait years to ensure that risk levels were
low, and that the circumstances impacting that risk were equally
well explored. This is merely prudent (dare we say, conservative?)
business.

  Further, the authorities clearly have security concerns (post-FFW)
that affect their willingness to see such a system installed too
soon. Imperial permission (and possibly capitalization) would also
be needed to install the huge d-tank support infrastructure.

  Once the Rebellion occurs, and the entire Imperium becomes a hunting
ground for commerce raiders, then developing such a system would be
suicidal. Not only would the resources be needed elsewhere, but the
system would not work. Any elements of such a system that were in place
in 1116 would be the first things to collapse.

  In the question of switch-over times there also arises the issue
of converting all those ships that have internal tanks, and how
efficient, safe, or functional all those conversions will be if
not carefully considered.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:29:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller playtest

Don McKinney wrote:
> 
> Two things:
> 1.      Finally, a Traveller publisher that posts things for playtesters...
Well, its the usual deal with SJG, one of the reasons why i think they are the best
rpg-publishers on the market today.
> 2.      $15 a year to pay to be a playtester???  Ouch!

But, you get a lot more for that. Being playtester is just an added boon for subscribers
(a club to which i sadly do not belong :-( ...)

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 00:24:28 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

Talisman wrote:
> 
> > Anyways,  Is Full Thrust Traveller still coming out?
> 
> What is full thrust?

Full Thrust is a starship miniatures combat tabletop game. 
Uses the simple approch, which makes it, IMHO, most fun to play!
I like it!

BTW.: When was FT:T announced and by whom?
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:38:11 +0000
From: "Robert Kondrk" <dss2@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

> >Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
> >at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!
> 
> ..escorting a colony start up of lesbian Aslan who want to organize a
> feudal technocracy..

Oooh...so _that's_ what's behind the Empress Wave! <g>
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bob Kondrk
Rahway, NJ
dss2@erols.com

Webpage: http://members.tripod.com/~rkondrk/index.html
- ------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 23:41:57 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Modular Cutter

How hard is it to swap a module in a modular cutter? Is it built into
the cutter or are the modules truly replaceable?  While we're at it, how
large is a module?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 19:52:33 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Changing the background

><Mouth agape in horror...  Nooooooooooooooooooooo..........>

  Sure, spoil my fun.

>Well, I don't recall any of your analyses, but my view is that
>in general they can serve to point up questions, but unless
>the issue simple, they are always based on enough assumptions
>that they server to quantitate one point of view rather than
>prove it.

  Luckily a lot of the technical issues are fairly simple, including
the economic number crunching, at least in isolation. It's the socio-
political and background history implications that have to be decided
by designers (or individual referees) fiat.

>>   No, but you can certainly explore the ramifications to a large
>> extent, and I think it's fair to say that to the extent that the
...
>> their efforts to meet dead-lines and bank payments.
...
>then you have to come the conclusion that you are fooling
>yourself if you think you can be sure of catching even 
>all of the major ramifications.  It is very difficult 
>to see them all because of how they ripple out.

  To be honest, professional writers have advantages and
disadvantages. Knowledge, experience, and authority are
the pro's, the big con is time/financial pressures. One
guy I know put many hundreds of hours into a micro-armour
simulation as a hobby; very few game companies have the
luxury of open-ended design schedules for either salaried
or outsourced personnel.

  Patience, care, and exposure to rational critical analysis
can go a long way.

  Assessing the skills available is difficult, but the TML
self-evidently represents a lot of spare time :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 21:47:44 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: TML Searchable archives

At 09:01 am 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I'm considering putting up a full-text searchable archive of the
TML. 
>>Some questions:-
>
>I would personally prefer not to see something like this; it means that
>(for example) the first thing anyone finds if they do a web search on
>"Bruce Macintosh" is a zillion TML entries - which might be unfortunate
>if a potential employer or grant reviewer is trying to find the web site
>with my actual astronomical work.

	Good lord, I'd wind up in front of a firing squad if a web search
turned up evidence of me arguing about space combat, high-energy
lasers, missiles and countermeasures, biowarfare, nuclear weapons,
jamming, aliens (even if I don't mention the Nevada desert ...)!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:25:52 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Fusion Reactors and shielding

I've been flipping through my TNE FFS and noticed the relationship
between reactor mass and efficiency.  I was thinking that maybe the
reaction doesn't get more efficient, but instead radiation shielding
tech just gets better. So, while the core remains the same for a given
output, lower tech levels require heavier and more voluminous shielding.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:35:59 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Military Humor

Douglas Berry said:

>OT: On my first day in the Army, just after uniform issue and haircuts, my
>reception platoon encounted General Wickam, the Chief of Staff.  He was
>very nice to us, and we didn't know enough to be properly terrified.

Loren Wiseman says:

Mostly Irrelevant to Traveller: IIRC, the chapel at the Air Force Academy has
17 spires, and the joke is that there is one for each of the twelve apostles
and the joint chiefs.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:13:26 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactors and shielding

>I've been flipping through my TNE FFS and noticed the relationship
>between reactor mass and efficiency.  I was thinking that maybe the
>reaction doesn't get more efficient, but instead radiation shielding
>tech just gets better. So, while the core remains the same for a given
>output, lower tech levels require heavier and more voluminous shielding.


I think it's cos if they gave you realistic outputs then you would hardly
need much of a powerplant at all :)

Cheers,
 Anson

I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather,
not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:40:58 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: trav eras

Eric Holmes wrote:
>Traveller universe.  No more CT-MT-TNE-T4-GT....who cares!? wars.  At this


Of course that should have been:

T4-CT-MT-TNE
        \GT

Or rather,

T4-CT-MT-TNE.
     \GT-?


There, that's not too hard to say is it?

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:39:03 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Name generator [was:Re: Product Review]

From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem) wrote:

>Speaking about Logicrucible, check their web site (sorry, I dont have the
>URL handy) and download their free (yep, thats right, free, cheapo, nada
>monero, costs ya nuthin) name generator.  Its neat, simple, and you can
>write your own file for making names that fit your campaign.  Its nice.



Wonderful, thanks for pointing me to this (www.logicrucible.com).  Great
fun.  Now, has anyone come up with a file for creating Traveller style
planet names?!  (Or can let me know how to do it).

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:58:00 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: UPP Size Code?

On 29 Apr 1998, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> So, can we make a table of UPP size codes, something
> like this?
> 
> Size		Body		Travel Time to 100d Limit	
> (from UPP)			1g	2g	3g	4g	5g	6g
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 0		Asteroid belt	
> 1		Planetoid	
> 2-4		Small Planet	
> 5-7		Medium Planet	
> 8-10		Large Planet	
> 20-100		Small GG	
> 110-240		Large GG	
> 250-???		Brown Dwarf	
> ???-???		???
> 
> Perhaps an extended, generalized table would help calculate
> close-enough travel times to the 100d limit of said body.

Such a table exists in the MegaTraveller material concerning starship
operations. It would be useful if this could be reprinted in an actualized
form. I think it was in the Referee's Companion

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #449
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 450



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: Weather in Space
Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules
Re: UPP Size Code?
Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)
Re: Uplift
Re: Changing the background
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #448
Re: Fusion Reactors and shielding
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Impending loss of ISP
Re: Spin habs in combat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:00:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Azhanti High Lightning Deck Plans

In mail you write:

>> >Well I prefer Pirates, in fighters, launching C+ rocks THROUGH JUMP GATES,
>> >at drop tank equipped convoy escorts!!!!!
>> 
>> ..escorting a colony start up of lesbian Aslan who want to organize a
>> feudal technocracy..
>
> Oooh...so _that's_ what's behind the Empress Wave! <g>

I can't stand the strain anymore. I have to tell *someone*.

The Truth is that the Empress Wave is an adverstising campaign for a
galaxy wide coalition of multi-species BEAUTY SHOPS getting ready to
move into Traveller's "known space". 

The "Wave" is their deluxe hairstyle...

At least, I'm free!

What, oh no, they're not happy... Run, ru.... <choke>

<CRASH>

CARRIER LOST
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:05:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

In mail you write:

>
>
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> They *did* do that. Not only did it blow things up, it did *something*
>> to "subspace" that made warp drives unusable in the area of effect.
>>
>> So the threat was eliminating *all* ftl travel and communication over
>> most of the galaxy. That's quite a threat to a star faring civilization.
>>
>> How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
>> that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
>> sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
>> weapon.
>
> Well, what if you detonated them in a screen formation?  This would prevent
> those pesky border  crossings, except through patrolled chokepoints.  FTL
> Comms would have to pass through these chokepoints as well, which makes them
> great as listening posts.  You cut off a sector and you control it.

Alas, to do this, you have to be able to *control* the stuff. And it's
the blasts while you are learning that mess up the neighborhood. And
thus they'd rather do without and keep things fairly intact.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:20:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

In mail you write:

>
>>> And could one of the astronomers tell us about what it'd be like being
>>> near things like T-Tauri stars (which as I recall have *monster*
>>> stellar winds).
>>What would stellar winds do to a ship?  "Blow" it off course? Cause damage?
>
> Stellar winds are just diffuse gas - no effect on a ship, except for reducing
> sensor range by a point or two.

I was thinking that some systems had ones strong enough that they
almost act like a continuous series of low-level flares. "Strong" in
the sense of high velocity.

> T-Tauri systems and other young stars most likely have a protoplanetary/
> accretion disk orbiting around them, though, which is somewhat nastier;
> it'd have a fairly high dust concentration - to the point where you might
> take significant dust hits on exposed surface fixtures (sensors and deployed
> weapons) every hour or two when travelling at any significant velocity. 
> There would also be a fair amount of planetersimals/meteoroids/asteroids/
> protocomets - junk on its way to planethood in increasing sizes; collisions
> would be rare but not impossible, although sensors should generally be able
> to see junk coming in time to avoid it (unless all your sensors have been
> scoured off by the dust...) 
>
> Some young stars will also experience very massive flares when the 
> accretion disk suddenly dumps a load of material onto the star - massive 
> enough and bright enough in X-rays that they could represent a hazard to
> unarmoured ships, unprotected crew, and non-fib computers.

-Sounds like a great place to set an adventure involving lots of
"outside the ship" work. Say, salvaging a derlict, or an abandoned
research station built by an unknown race. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:11:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson replies:
>>Actually Life Support also includes all the storage/dumping/recycling of
>>wastes,
>
> Propably not. Life support cost are directly proportional to the number
> of passengers. I doubt that waste disposal for 20 is twice as expensive
> as waste disposal for 10. But I could be wrong.

I think it's a matter of *volume*. With 20 you have twice the volume of
waste to process. 

>>food, drink,
>
> Definitely. That acconts for several 100 credits...
>
>>heating, cooling,
>
> No. That's part of the ship's functions.

It's life support. Areas with no people in them don't need to be kept
under the sort of strict temperature controls that the living areas
have. Also, each passenger *adds* to the heat load the cooling system
for the living quarters has to deal with. 

A human just *sitting* there is a 100 watt heat source. One who is
doing something active could run a kilowatt. Maybe more. The more
people running around, the more the life support gear has to mess with
airflows to keep the air temps comfortable. Ever been in a long meeting
in a small, crowded room? The place quickly becomes unbearably hot.

>>removing CO2 and other undesirable gases from the atmosphere,
>
> Yes. Another few 10s of credits.

Depends on how you do it. Cartridges for a week are apt to cost more
than that. And methods that *don't* use "consumables" are apt to be
more expensive. But the fact that you can use them when there's a
misjump and you are stuck in jump for *four* weeks instead of one may
make them worth it to ship owners.

Personally, I wouldn't have chemical cartridge type purification on a
jump capable ship or even on any sort of long duration craft. They are
ok for shuttles and the like because they won't be in use more than a
few days at a time.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:23:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

In mail you write:

>> The main things you need to worry about are "meteor showers" like this,
>> and solar flares. Flares require observation of the star to detect, but
>> luckily the particles that do the damage are moving somewhat slower
>> than light, so that you'll have minutes to hours of warning.
>
> What kind of damage would these do to a ship?  In Traveller terms? 

The problem isn't *physical* damage. It's the *high* levels of
radiation. High speed protons mostly. Sort of like the radiation
effects from a watered down particle beam hit.

>> Flares tend to depend on sunspot cycles, which require that you have
>> observed the star for decades to get the cycles figured out.
>
> Inhabited systems would probably have observatories and sensors aimed
> that way then, no?  Wouldn't that be part of a scout survey too?
> There's no way other than a decade long observation to figure out the
> cycles?  For example, scout ship enters the system and begins a
> survey.  AEMS or PEMS won't be able to tell at all if a flare is
> imminent?  What about a spot study of the star (looks at the
> sunspots).

Flares correlate to *some* extent with sunspots. But the sunspot cycles
take decades of observation to figure out because they are that long.
Sol's main cycle is 22 years, though the two halves of the cycle are
similar enough that you can refer to an 11 year cycle.

The idea is that when you first arrive, you don't know if this is the
"light" part of the cycle or the "heavy" part. Imagine the "fun" if you
assume that the high number of flares means that you are in the "heavy"
part of the cycle, and then as the years go by, you discovere that it
was the *light* part, and you are getting flares far stronger and far
more often than you designed space facilities to handle. Oops.

Stars are *different*.

>> Meteor showers tend to occur when crossing the orbit of old comets. The
>> density depends on what part of the orbit you cross (relative to the
>> position of the comet).
>> 
>> These too require decades or even *centuries* of observations to be
>> able to predict.
>
> Couldn't they be detected by "seeing" them coming in?  On sensors,
> too?  I'm sure most hi-pop systems will have a pretty mean sensors
> array as well as a small network of probes and bases, no?

Trouble is, you are looking for stuff that's mostly "dust" and "grains
of sand". That's not easy to detect at long range.

Once you've got a path for the comet, you've got an area to search. You
might even send out ships to take samples in various parts of the
orbit. 

But a typical cometary orbit has a period of *centuries*. Halley's
comet with it's 75 year period is actually a *short* period comet. 

How well you can determine the comet's orbit determines how well you
can determine where the meteoroids derived from it will be. And thus,
how well you can tell if your ship's trajectory crosses the "stream" or
if the stream crosses a planet's orbit while the planet is there.

But good orbits require good observations. And worse yet, comets
*change* their orbits due to outgassing. So you can never be sure if
there's stuff in the *old* orbit, or stuff from a comet you haven't
seen yet (and won't for 5000 years!). 

>> So a "newly settled" system is apt to learn about major flares, or
>> major meteor showers the hard way. Settled systems will know in advance
>> when such things are likely.
>
> So wouldn't "newly settled" systems have a heavier scout and probe
> presence, especially for the meteors?

For the small stuff, it's pretty hard to detect. But it's still big
enough to be a pain. Check Bruce's sensor rules to figure out how far
away you can detect a rough surfaced, almost black "marble". And then
realize that while these are rare, they are enough to mess a ship up
nicely. 

And you *will* have flare warnings if you have a fairly cheap set of
satellites watching the star. It's just that until you have a long
enough baseline of observations, you can't predict in advance when
there will be lots of flares and when things will be quiet.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:53:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules

In mail you write:

>> A 1g ship trying to scoop Jupiter had *better* be moving *well* above
>> hypersonic. Or it'll never get out again.
>
> But does that require hypersonic *streamlining?*  I have FFS2, but confess
> I've never used it (nor thoroughly read through it).  Fuel skimming doesn't
> have to go very low does it?  To require the streamlining on the hull?

To go down far enough that there's significant hydrogen to scoop mean
that you *are* travelling through something thick enough for
streamlining to matter. If you weren't, the scoops couldn't pick up
anything. 

And your velocity is going to be around 100 km/sec or better (I don't
have time to figure Jupiter's orbital velocity at the top of the
atmosphere, but it's likely *higher* than that).

> Couldn't an original FFS "streamlined" Contra Grav ship moving at G 
> velocities not have to worry bout it? 

A gas gaint has a gravity well that extends *way* out. And I don't buy
"floating" at the lower altitudes where the atmosphere is as denses as
"normal" atmosphere, much less deeper. The weather would be worse than
any hurricane on earth.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:48:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: UPP Size Code?

In mail you write:

> So, can we make a table of UPP size codes, something
> like this?
>
> Size            Body            Travel Time to 100d Limit       
> (from UPP)                      1g      2g      3g      4g      5g      6g
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 0               Asteroid belt   
> 1               Planetoid       
> 2-4             Small Planet    
> 5-7             Medium Planet   
> 8-10            Large Planet    
> 20-100          Small GG        
> 110-240         Large GG        
> 250-???         Brown Dwarf     
> ???-???         ???
>
> Perhaps an extended, generalized table would help calculate
> close-enough travel times to the 100d limit of said body.

It gets kinda weird. You see, once you hit jupiter's size, planets
can't get much bigger. They have enough pressure at the core for the
electron shells of atoms to collapse, giving you degenerate matter,
which packs a *lot* tighter. Bodies actually start getting *smaller*
until you get them big enough for fusion to start at the core. Then
they get bigger as radiation pressure counteracts the gravity. 

So the mass/diameter ratio isn't anything resembling a straight line.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:44:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ST tech (was: To tech or not to tech?)

In mail you write:

> Trek lost me completely when the stories ceased being about people and
> became the "technobabble of the week" contest.
>
> My favorite stories were always character driven.. "Family", the TNG
> epeisode that followed "Best of Both Worlds", and the episode that had
> Picard live out an entire lifetime in an alien culture, really stick with me.

I rather liked tonight's Voyager. No super science stuff. Just a backup
of the Doctor being activated 700 years later and having to deal with
some historical problems. :-)

It's also got some good lessons about just how *in*accurate history can
be.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:13:24 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Uplift

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Rob Conley wrote:

> I would find a country in the same condition as colonial America or Great
> Britain and open a company.
> I would then use my advanced technical knowledge to produce products that
> can be produced that TL and
> turn a profit. Within that company estabilsh a R&D facility (like a 18th
> century version of Edision's Lab) to work on
> advanced tech product using the database as a guide to avoid deadends. Then
> over the years encourage people with good
> ideas to leave the company to found their own startups producing goods. Do
> this putting out venture capital reap some profits and then
> turn it over to the people starting it.

Then take it from the other side - arriving on a planet where a
megacorporation does this for some other not-yet-known own profit.
There's no legal action against it, as a prime directive in traveller is
yet unkown, only Iolanthe stated about leaving some young cultures on
their own.
That sounds like a little Roswell-Alien-Conspiracy again - 
Nice adventure hooks ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:32:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> Wed, 29 Apr 1998 08:10:58 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
> <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> > > Tue, 28 Apr 1998 14:05:57 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen

> > Of course they where introduced later. They were a new invention that came
> > along in the late Imperium. Are you saying that you want a static
> > non-changing universe to play in, where all things are defined and there
> > is nothing to suprise you?
> 
> Of course not.  Nothing in what I posted said I did.  What I don't want
> is changes that accidentally screw with fundamental portions of the
> background because they weren't thought through.

But they don't accidentally screw with the background, because they as you
have stated really had no impact on it at all. Why was that? No supplement
has as I understand explained why they didn't have a bigger impact on the
Imperium than what they had. The fact that they were introduced, seen as
an improvment, but never went beyond that is to me a great chatch for an
adventure. Sorry, but to me the way you put forth your arguments it seems
like you want a universe were the background is a constant, never
changing. To me that is a dull universe to play in.

> > The ramifications never had a chance to play themself out, as the Imperium
> > collapsed before drop tanks had a chance to change anything.
> 
> That is hard to accept.  The implications are straightforward and
> if the factions had time to research new AI Viruses they could have
> explored such a fundamental advantage.  In fact, the implications of
> drop tanks would have been obvious in the decade or two that passed
> between when they introduced and and the rebellion and they would have
> been of much greater interest than they were presented as having.

I agree, I had forgotten when they were introduced, missed with about a
decade :-) But we know that they were introduced, never had the ability to
change the universe around themself. Why? Things like this is what I want
in a background. It's inspires to great roleplaying IMO.

> > > Which there would be great incentive to put along all significant
> > > trades routes (which would tend to group travel into certain
> > > routes which would be a big change, in and of itself).
>  
> > But that would also make space travel much more vounerable. Drop tanks are
> > only usable in the large, well defined systems.
> 
> Well all systems are "well defined" and they will also be available in
> systems
> along routes between large systems.  As to their vulnerablility, the
> fact
> that military strategy is affected by shipping that is less scattered
> but goes along well defined routes is going give even more ramifacations
> (and even more changes to the background) for both offense and defense.

Let me refrace that. Put "stabel" in for "well defined" and youget my
meaning more precisly. The fact that a ship that uses drop tanks, without
large enough internal tanks for a new jump, is pretty much a sitting duck
in the system it jumps to means that the systems that has drop tank
facilities must be stable. Very stable. Since there is a significant lag
in time for news to spread, no corporation is going to risk multi-milloin
credit ships with having drop tank facilities in systems with unstable
economies, war strucken systems, and so on. You seem to accept the many
constants that are in the Traveller rule books. Fuelcost is nearly
constant, life support cost is constant, and so on. To me this is
unbeleavable. In two systems several parsec apart the fuel might vary with
several hundred or maybe thousand prosent. 

> > Fuel has to plentiful,
> > tools, mechanics, engineers, stable economies has to present.   I don't want
> > to jump to a system to find out that the only mechanic my firm had in
> > employment has died, and that because of a small malfunction I have to
> > wait a couple of weeks before the drop tanks can be transported out to my
> > ship.
> 
> Hogwash.  You are presenting the straw man that the only alternatives
> are a large system or an instalation with one person and no ability
> to repair anything that breaks down.

I'm not really sure what your saying here. What I mean is that drop tanks
are a new invention. I want to keep that. But why hasn't it changed the
workings on space travel in the published materials? So I posed some
reasons why non but the large traderoutes in stable parts of the Imperium
will use drop tanks. What is wrong with this line of thought?


> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:35:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> A human just *sitting* there is a 100 watt heat source. One who is
> doing something active could run a kilowatt. Maybe more. The more
> people running around, the more the life support gear has to mess with
> airflows to keep the air temps comfortable. Ever been in a long meeting
> in a small, crowded room? The place quickly becomes unbearably hot.

I've been in some Role-playing sessions with up to ten persons in one
room. Sounds familiar, does it? A little problem there: the owner of the
room is the master and afraid of insects coming into it, so the windows
are shut. But that's none against a overcrowded bus/tram in winter ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:03:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

In mail you write:

> At 06:16 PM 29/04/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>> 
>>> What do UT and UTC stand for?
>>
>>Universal Time.  It used to be known as Greenwich Mean Time.
>
> I suspected as much, but I'd never struck this UTC thing before. The
> military still use GMT, though they have alphanumeric names for the
> different time zones (GMT is Zulu, I think).
>
> Why did they change?

Because we can now measure time so accurately that the irregularities
in the Earth's rotation were starting to cause problems. We've had to
add 17 or 18 seconds to the clock since the mid 70s just to keep the
atomic clock time (1 day = 86400 seconds *exactly*) in synch with the
astronomical time (1 day = average time for Earth to rotate over the
year). That may not sound like much, but it's an error of *miles* in
navigation. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:11:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #448

In mail you write:

>>What do UT and UTC stand for?
> Universal and coordinatred universal time. For all practcical purposes 
> they mean "Greenwhich mean time". UT (more properly, UT1) is defined from
> the rotation of the earth and positions of stars; UTC is defined from
> atomic clocks and is the one that periodically has leap seconds added to it.
>
> (Don't even ask me about TDT, TAI, ET, UT0, TCG, and TCB...

Eeek! I must be an astronomy junkie. I recocognize half of therm, and
could probably make a stab at naming them. (TAI, which I think is
another Atomic time?, ET = Ephemeris Time, UT0= probably earth's
rotation *not* corrected for something or other). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:17:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion Reactors and shielding

In mail you write:

> I've been flipping through my TNE FFS and noticed the relationship
> between reactor mass and efficiency.  I was thinking that maybe the
> reaction doesn't get more efficient, but instead radiation shielding
> tech just gets better. So, while the core remains the same for a given
> output, lower tech levels require heavier and more voluminous shielding.

It's probably simpler than that. The bigger the reactor, the more
volume it has compared with surface area. If you have a reactor X on a
side (or X in diameter) and it has a surface area of Y and a volume of
Z, one that is *2X* will have a surface area of 4Y, but a volume of
*8Z*. So you have *half* as much sheilding per unit of volume (and
mass). 

Remember, a bigger reactor *doesn't* need thicker shielding. Or at
least, not so much thicker that it overrides the square-cube law.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 04:01:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

In mail you write:

> At 01:28 PM 29/04/98 -0700, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>>
>>
>>                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>>
>>                           MAJOR SOLAR FLARE ALERT
>>
>>                          ISSUED: 19:05 UT, 29 APRIL
>>
>>                     /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
>>
>>                        *  Moderate Impact Possible  *
>>
>>
>>MAJOR ENERGETIC EVENT SUMMARY:
>>
>>              ( All times are valid for the UT day of 29 Apr )
>>
>>Flare Size: Class M6.89/3B at 16:37 UTC
>>  Location: S17E21 (Region 8210)
>>  Tenflare: 100 sfu at 17:10 UTC. Duration: 7 minutes
>>    Sweeps: Unknown (too early)
>> SEC Start: 1606 UTC, SEC Max: 16:37 UTC, SEC End: 16:39 UTC
>
> What do UT and UTC stand for?

UT = Universal Time
UTC (the C should properly be a subscript) = Coordinated Universal Time.

UT is based on the rotation of the earth. UTC has leap seconds added to
keep it in synch with atomic clock time (the Earth is slowing down).

For most purposes, they are both identical to GMT.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:49:33 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Impending loss of ISP

Well my ISP has just gone into receivership, so I soon expect my access
to be cut in the very near future (hopefully this will only be a temporary
problem). However I would like to find a temporary home for at least some
of my traveller web pages (specifically the Luriani, the Ine Givar, the
History of the Interstellar Wars and Paul Walkers excellent shipyard rules).
If anyone would kindly like to host them until I can get a new site could
they please drop me a line *quickly*. Or just grab them off my site.

If anybody else would like a copy of any of these, please email me (since I
don't expect this address to be around much longer, please do so quickly).

May I also wish a found farewell to my many friends; I hope to see you all
again very soon.

Thanks

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/abuse/abuse.htm (child abuse site)
****************************************************************************
"Worst thing about being a multiple is filling out the name tags"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:39:45 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Spin habs in combat

This would work, but you end up with both sections spinning, and you
still have the dangers of rotating sections suddenly becoming unstable
when battle damage occurs.  I can see it now..........

[Captain:  Gunnery!  Target their spin habs!!!!!!!
Gunnery:  Targeting habs aye, firing.......
Sensors:  Sir, they just lost half their spin hab, beginning to tumble,
target breaking up amidships.........]

Well, spin habs on combat ships is not a good idea.  Seems to me the best
way to deal with it is to make any spin habs a small as possible, then
keep explosive bolts on them, in case of sudden loss of stability.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM


On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:03:56 +0100 SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
writes:
>shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
>
>>>Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
>>>need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
>>>habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
>>>in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress on
>>>the structure.
>
>You don't need a flywheel. Set up magnets in the rotating section (lets
>call it a rotor) and in the stationary section (lets call it a stator) and
>use the whole spin assembly as a generator (like regenerative breaking) and
>convert the kinetic energy into electrical, which you then use to charge up
>your screens and HPGs in 2300....
>
>Dom
>
>------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
>"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
>notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
>just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
>invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
>--Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #450
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 451



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Changing the background & Jump drives
Re: TML Searchable archives
Fuel Scoops (was Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules)
Re: Military Humor
Re: Modular Cutter
re: Modular Cutter
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Modular Cutter
RE: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: timesclaes (sliding off topic)
Imperial Navy ranks
re: Modular Cutter
Re: Imperial Navy ranks
Fourth Imperium Milieu
Advanced vehicles?
Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:46:59 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

David P. Summers writes:

>[My last post to Hans on this issue.  It has clearly reached the end of
>the road of useful discussion.  Hans had been engaging in generalities
>and I have seen this as OK because I saw it as time to summarize and wrap
>this up. However, now Hans is ignoring that I have answered specifics and
>the past and challenging with points we have already beaten to death.

You know, David, I've tried to restrain myself from escalating this out of
the friendly discussion category, but this and similar remarks are simply
too provoking. To have my own points dismissed by a general statement and
to have my requests for specific arguments dismissed with a mere repeat
of the same general statement is bad enough, but to have you claim that
you have, indeed, answered specifics, is just too much. So I'm going to
say flat out that what you are saying is not true. If that upsets you,
the remedy is simple. Just provide a few quotes of specific examples you've
provided of elements in previously published Traveller material that would
be invalidated by the existence of drop tanks[*] and I'll eat a large helping
of crow and apologize most humbly to you. Otherwise have the decency to
refrain from spouting similar... stuff... in the future. Put up or shut up.

[*] You know, something like "If drop tanks were really possible, then the
    setup in Xxxxx System couldn't possibly be as described on page yy of
    Adventure Z because <reasoned argument>".

> Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:38 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
>>Of course, to be consistent you'd then have to be a warm advocate of
>>jump torpedoes, because they were mentioned in the first edition of the
>>original 3 black books and were subsequently dropped (causing a lot of
>>underserved abuse to be heaped on the heads of the authors of _Leviathan_
>>over the years.
> 
>I find this hard to believe.  I have a very early version they don't
>appear in.

And I have one where they do appear. So have at least one other on the list
(I didn't realize this myself until I saw someone claim it and went and
checked my own copy).

>Even if they were, it only shows the utility of dropping
>bad ideas before they cause to much trouble.

Of course, if they do, indeed, cause trouble (as you know I don't agree
with that, but I'm willing to assume it for purposes of this argument),
the only reason they do is that they were ignored while the history of the
Imperium was being developed. If they had been remembered, that history
would have reflected their existence and they would have fitted right into
the background. So they weren't a bad idea when they were dropped, just an
idea.

>And from where I sit, you have made a dubious assumptions to come up
>with a simplistic analysis and even that showed fundamental changes to
>the costs of the basis for all shiping and hence for the entire economy
>and the basis for politcal and social interaction.

(Why do I get that strange sense of deja vu? I know, it's because I really
have seen it before....) David, do you ever really read what your opponents
write? I've stated that several times. I'll repeat it just in case you'll
deign to actually read it this time: The setup of a society that use drop
tanks will differ in some ways from a society that don't. (This is really
so self-evident that I shouldn't have to point it out repeatedly). That's
not and never have been what I've argued. What I've argued is that such
changes won't invalidate much, if anything, of what has been published
_until now_.

>You have also based this on the unsupportable 

claim?

>(by your own admission) that you will be able to see all the ramifications.

I've never claimed that, nor seen the need to claim that. The only claim
I've made, and the only one I feel is needed to justify my position is
that as far as anyone can see right now, it won't invalidate any previously
published material.

>Your claims have done nothing to address the fundamental point that a
>change of the magnitude to the basis for economy and social and politcal
>interaction can't help but fundamentally change society.

That's propably because I more or less started out demonstrating that it
propably would change core societies significantly (though I must say
that I consider 'fundamentally' too strong a word to use without backing
it up with specific examples). I usually don't go around trying to
refute things I've stated myself. I also claimed that that it is completely
irrelevant since none of those core societies have been portrayed so far
in such details that it can be proved that they didn't use drop tanks
to some extent. (That some of those systems have been summarily described
without any mention of drop tanks is not enough to show that drop tanks
are not present; at least not unless you're prepared to shred a lot of
other material on the same grounds (I can give you a number of examples of
elements in the Traveller background that should logically have been at
least mentioned in an earlier publication, but wasn't)).
 
>See, isn't it easier to make sweeping generalizations about the other
>person's position rather than post real arguments?

You should know. As for me, I tried the real arguments first.

>Now you are certainly going to be all outraged that you didn't say any
>such things and that this is totally inaccurate. How do you think others
>feel when you post things like this?

Nobody likes that sort of thing, and that's one reason why I haven't done
it before, but there is a limit. You're a great one for moral relativity,
but the cases are not equivalent, any more than the ostensibly equally
great degree of pigheadedness on the part of a Flat Earther and a Round
Earther. You forget one crucial difference: is it true or not? Fortunately
in our case it is easily settled. I claim you haven't provided specific
examples of parts of the previously established Traveller canon that will
be invalidated if drop tanks are retained. You claim you have. Fine.
Provide a few quotes and I'll apologize. I'm not too proud to admit it
whem I'm proved wrong. BTW. just as a matter of curiosity, have you ever
been wrong? I mean, have you ever changed your mind as a result of an
argument with someone else on the net? If the answer to that question is
"No" or "Hardly ever", then you should take a few minutes to ponder if
that shouldn't tell you something.

>>>>Eliminating the need for all ships everywhere to carry their own fuel would
>>>>be a fairly big change, I suppose (though not nearly as big as, say,
>>>>requiring them to travel in convoy in order to protect them from enemy
>>>>raiders),
>>> 
>>>Much bigger.
>> 
>>Wow! That's a nice, knock-down argument for you! I can't believe I didn't
>>think of that myself! OK, you've convinced me!
> 
>You are being hypocritical.

No, I'm being sarcastic.

>Read why I am responding to.  You simply
>assert that it is a big change but not as big as other changes that
>have been discussed.  I simply asserted that is was bigger.

At least I have a basis for my assertation. I have run several Traveller
campaigns and, believe me, to players adventuring in the parts of the
spinward Marches where my campains have been set (and where a number of
Traveller adventures have been set), the risk of meeting a commerce
raider in the next system is of far more importance than the fact that
the cost of travelling from Rhylanor to Mora may be 25% of what it would
otherwise be.
 
>>Try reading what I'm asking. I'm challinging you to provide concrete
>>examples, something you seem remarkably reluctant to do.
> 
>Hogwash. I have provided examples...

Then it should be no trouble to quote a few.

>You want me to reiterate my arguements so you can attack them with the
>same old counter arguements and keep beating a dead horse.

No! I most certainly _don't_ want you to reiterate your arguments! I grew
tired of them after the first couple of reiterations. I want you to
provide _evidence_ for your arguments. You do know the difference between
arguments and evidence, don't you?

>>BTW. so far you've done preciously little to convince anyone that your
>>view has any validity.
> 
>I'm willing to stand on what I've written.  I'm even willing to do it
>without making slams against the other person.  You appear to be
>unwilling to do this.

I guess that if you had just stuck to repeating your arguments interminable
without providing any supporting evidence, then I'd just have let it slide
as so often before. But when you add insult to injury by claiming that you
had, in fact, provided evidence... well, I guess you're 100% right. I'm not
willing to just let that slide. Now I have slammed you. That is an odious
thing to do UNLESS the slam happens to be true. So go ahead. Prove me
wrong and I'll apologize.

>>I'm not trying to ridicule your points.
> 
>When it comes to the point on wether political changes are really the 
>most fundamental, all you have _ever_ don't is call it ridiculous
>and splitting hairs.

I gave you a list of specific features that would change drastically in the
average CT campaign once the Rebellion broke out (Which, btw. you ignored).
So, once again you are stating an untruth. I may also have split hairs and
ridiculed you (if pointing out that an argument is ridiculous is ridiculing,
then I guess I did), but it is demonstrably not the only thing I did.

To give an example of what would have been a proper way to dispute that,
you could either have taken the list and argued that those features
wouldn't necessarily have to change or you could have provided a list
of specific changes that the average CT campaign would inevitably run
into once drop tanks became an integral part of Imperial society and
argue that those changes were greater than my changes. Since you hadn't
refuted my arguments, I chose to take that point as given. You chose
to refute it by a bald assertation. That is not an impressive way to
argue.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:59:38 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: TML Searchable archives

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

>>>>
At 09:01 am 4/27/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I'm considering putting up a full-text searchable archive of the TML. 
>>Some questions:-
>
>I would personally prefer not to see something like this; it means that
>(for example) the first thing anyone finds if they do a web search on
>"Bruce Macintosh" is a zillion TML entries - which might be unfortunate
>if a potential employer or grant reviewer is trying to find the web site
>with my actual astronomical work.

	Good lord, I'd wind up in front of a firing squad if a web search
turned up evidence of me arguing about space combat, high-energy
lasers, missiles and countermeasures, biowarfare, nuclear weapons,
jamming, aliens (even if I don't mention the Nevada desert ...)!
<<<<

Can I take it that you aren't as concerned as Bruce about the 
availability of such an archive?

Andy

- - -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- - -------------------------------------------------------

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Charset: noconv

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=OIDU
- -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:15:45 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Fuel Scoops (was Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules)

Leonard Said;
>In mail you write:
>
>>> A 1g ship trying to scoop Jupiter had *better* be moving *well* above
>>> hypersonic. Or it'll never get out again.
>>
>> But does that require hypersonic *streamlining?*
[snip]
>To go down far enough that there's significant hydrogen to scoop mean
>that you *are* travelling through something thick enough for
>streamlining to matter. If you weren't, the scoops couldn't pick up
>anything.
>
>And your velocity is going to be around 100 km/sec or better (I don't
>have time to figure Jupiter's orbital velocity at the top of the
>atmosphere, but it's likely *higher* than that).

I agree with Leonard that if you consider a ship to be physically scooping
hydrogen (or water) then either the velocity of the ship must be so low
that it will be very difficult to escape back into orbit, or the hull must
be hypersonically streamlined to prevent hideous drag, or your ship hits
the atmospheric layer like it was a brick wall and pieces start to shear
off and (eventually) the hull breaks up.

Think of it as an airplane hitting water; no matter how carefully the pilot
angles into the sea s/he is going to end up cartwheeling or tearing off the
landing gear, wings, etc and at least damaging the fuselage and surface
gear.  Now a flying boat doing the same operation is properly "streamlined"
for the thicker medium and can therefore safely land (not a perfect
analogy, but adequate).  Note that in either case a dramatic decrease in
speed is necessary.

That said, is there any denial in FF&S of the possibility of fuel scoops
including electromagnetic field effects to collect ionized hydrogen from
much thinner layers of atmosphere (i.e. further out and allowing higher
safe streamlined (not hypersonically) passes)?

In the MT ship design system scoops require no energy, and I would take
that to mean there is no EM field.  Do scoops in FF&S or FF&S2 require
energy (I haven't used FF&S enough and havent rec'd FF&S2 yet)?

I believe this concept is akin to that of the Bussard Ram Scoop which would
collect its fuel as it travelled between the stars, picking up the random
hydrogen molecule.  Of course, the size of the "scoop" need not be nearly
as large since densities even in the very upper atmosphere of a GG are
orders of magnitude bigger.

I have yet to decide if IMTU this is the case (it isn't yet relevant).  It
seems like there could be unforseen circumstances or implications.  The EM
field need not be partucularly strong to collect individual ions at a
pretty good clip, but it needs to be cast pretty wide.  Similar technology
(I think) could be used to collect sensor data as well.

Corrections and comments welcome as always.

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:42:02 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: Military Humor

Loren Wiseman says:
>
>Mostly Irrelevant to Traveller: IIRC, the chapel at the Air Force Academy has
>17 spires, and the joke is that there is one for each of the twelve apostles
>and the joint chiefs.

What!?! You mean they're *not* the same? Golly, are the joint chiefs
going to be disappointed!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:54:18 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

>How hard is it to swap a module in a modular cutter? Is it built into
>the cutter or are the modules truly replaceable?  While we're at it, how
>large is a module?

From "Broadsword" which was a LBB Adventure (number escapes me);

Modules could be swapped in open space in an hour.  Crew rewquired is unknown.

Modules are truly swappable; Broadsword carried four modules and two cutter
"frames".

A module is 30 displacement tons.

Under MT (since I don't have the MT Imp. Encyclopedia here) I can easily
design a 50ton TL15 boat with 30 tons of "cargo" to represent the module.

Designing modules is interesting; they must have their own internal power
and (if needed) environmentals, so are basically ships without drives.

The modules in the adventure included; an ATV Module (carried one wheeled
ATV), a cargo module, a passenger module, a fuel module, an assault module
(this was interesting; articulated outer hull would dig up a "quickie"
foxhole for the troops it carried to deploy into - which I though was
probably absolutely useless on a TL 11+ battlefield), a fuel module, a
weapons module (one laser turret?), and a fighter module (four fighters @ 6
tons each I think).

I though a combination passenger/freight module would be more practical.
Broadsword needed one fuel module to refuel (although a cargo module with
collapsable tanks would do as well-the scoops were built into the
drive/bridge portion of the cutter).

Alltogether an interesting design, and similar to the "Eagle" from
Space:1999 in concept.  I do not remember if it was explicitly stated
whether the cutter could operate without the module and what that would do
to its performance.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:24:00 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Modular Cutter

Peter H. brenton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Alltogether an interesting design, and similar to the "Eagle" from
Space:1999 in concept.  I do not remember if it was explicitly stated
whether the cutter could operate without the module and what that would do
to its performance.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes, a wonderful and flexible design concept.

Without the module, the Cutter acts as a 20 dt craft with 6G maneuver
capability. Streamlining of the module-less frame wasn't referred to,
but from the drawings it looks like it would drop from streamlined to 
unstreamlined - the cutter was unstreamlined while using the fighter 
frame.

I thought up a larger scout cruiser that had four modular cutters and
a module carousel in the center - kind of like the cylinder on a revolver.
It allowed for swapping modules inside a hangar, instead of having to
park a module in open space while you went in and got the one you
wanted, but at the cost of having one or two empty module hangars
to swap modules into.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 07:59:44 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

Oh please post this design. Please please......(sounds of groveling and
drooling)

Dave

 
- ----------
> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: re: Modular Cutter
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 7:24 AM
> 
> Peter H. brenton wrote:
<snip>
> I thought up a larger scout cruiser that had four modular cutters and
> a module carousel in the center - kind of like the cylinder on a revolver.
> It allowed for swapping modules inside a hangar, instead of having to
> park a module in open space while you went in and got the one you
> wanted, but at the cost of having one or two empty module hangars
> to swap modules into.
> 
> Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:59:47 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

See adventure #7 Broadsword. They have good descriptions of cutters swapping
modules.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 08:55:38 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules

>A gas gaint has a gravity well that extends *way* out. And I don't buy
>"floating" at the lower altitudes where the atmosphere is as denses as
>"normal" atmosphere, much less deeper. The weather would be worse than
>any hurricane on earth.

Now that we know that Jupiter (and supposedly other gas giants) have
enormous, amazingly powerful magnetic fields, how do we justify a ship being
able to get close enough to refuel without suffering massive damage?

Just wonderin', that's all . . .

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:01:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

>>> What do UT and UTC stand for?
>>Universal Time.  It used to be known as Greenwich Mean Time.
>I suspected as much, but I'd never struck this UTC thing before. The
>military still use GMT, though they have alphanumeric names for the
>different time zones (GMT is Zulu, I think).
>Why did they change?

The definitions are somewhat different than old-fashioned Greenwich time
which is defined by the rotation of the Earth and hence wanders back and 
(mostly) forward as the Earth's rotation (mostly) slows. UT0 is the 
time as measured by the rotation of the Earth at greenwhich (similar to 
GMT but without the averaging that made GMT "mean".) UT1 is 
time as measured by the rotation of the Earth at your particular location
(offset back to Greenich's time zone); it varies from UT1 due to the 
non-roundness of the Earth. UTC is time kept by atomic clocks; it advances
due to the slowing of the Earth's rotation but only by integer seconds
("leap seconds"), as opposed to UT0 or GMT, which sort of slid forward
continuously as the Earth slowed. 

The distinctions may sound trivial, but at a leap second every few years they
add up for navigational purposes - or astronomical purposes; I have to worry
about things like whether a calculated time for an eclipse of Io is 
in UTC or some other non-sliding timescale like TDT. I think the official
changeover happened when the most accurate timekeeping changed from 
stellar observations to atomic clocks.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:00:16 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

At 01:35 PM 4/30/98 +0200, you wrote:
>On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> A human just *sitting* there is a 100 watt heat source. One who is
>> doing something active could run a kilowatt. Maybe more. The more
>> people running around, the more the life support gear has to mess with
>> airflows to keep the air temps comfortable. Ever been in a long meeting
>> in a small, crowded room? The place quickly becomes unbearably hot.
>
>I've been in some Role-playing sessions with up to ten persons in one
>room. Sounds familiar, does it? A little problem there: the owner of the
>room is the master and afraid of insects coming into it, so the windows
>are shut. But that's none against a overcrowded bus/tram in winter ...

Basic Training at Ft. Benning GA.  We'd shove forty infantry into a trailer
(we called it a cattle car) that was about 30ft long by 10ft wide.  This
was with weapons, rucksacks, etc..  made for a practical experiment in
low-oxygen atmospheres after about 10 minutes.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:14:44 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: timesclaes (sliding off topic)

>> (Don't even ask me about TDT, TAI, ET, UT0, TCG, and TCB...
>Eeek! I must be an astronomy junkie. I recocognize half of therm, and
>could probably make a stab at naming them. (TAI, which I think is
>another Atomic time?, ET = Ephemeris Time, UT0= probably earth's
>rotation *not* corrected for something or other). 

TAI is international atomic time, which doesn't slide forward as the
Earth's rotation slows (so it's now about 30 seconds ahead of UT/GMT).
ET is old-fashioned ephemeris time for observing things with. TDT
(Terrestrial Dynamical Time) is its modern successor, defined by a fixed
offset from TAI of 32.184 seconds (don't ask why.) UT0 is time-measured-from-the
stars at your location instantaneously (uncorrected for things like 
pole wander); UT1 is time-measured-from-the-stars/earth's rotation corrected
for observer's location and pole motion. (I may have got these mixed up in
earlier posts.) TCG and TCB include general relativistic corrections, with
their origins at the center of mass of the earth and of the solar system
respectively. (GR corrections start to matter for things like GPS satellites...)
They haven't been officially adopted yet, though. Thank god there are 
computer programs to understand all these things for me...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:29:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial Navy ranks

> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
 
> That was the point I was trying to make. I've long been of the opinion that
> a multi-sector interstellar state needs more ranks than a single country
> on a balkanized planet and that the historical instances of ranks higher
> than four-star generals was an argument in my favor. Unfortunately Douglas

I tend to agree, but I use the following ranks:
00 cadet
01 ensign
02 sublieutenant
03 lieutenant
04 lieutenant commander
05 commander
06 captain
06a fleet captain (a temporary wartime rank, not considered flag rank,
but commanding more than one ship)
07 commodore
08 rear admiral
09 vice admiral
010 fleet admiral
011 sector admiral
012 grand admiral
013 imperial grand admiral

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 09:59:36 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Modular Cutter

>How hard is it to swap a module in a modular cutter? Is it built into
>the cutter or are the modules truly replaceable?
It's pretty straightforward. If you do it in gravity it requires handling
equipment of some sort (or enough room to fly the cutter over and lower it
down on the module) but it's otherwise an easy process; the modules are
completely replaceable (which is the point, after all.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 10:05:23 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy ranks

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> I tend to agree, but I use the following ranks:
> 00 cadet
> 01 ensign
> 02 sublieutenant
> 03 lieutenant
> 04 lieutenant commander
> 05 commander
> 06 captain
> 06a fleet captain (a temporary wartime rank, not considered flag rank,
> but commanding more than one ship)
> 07 commodore
> 08 rear admiral
> 09 vice admiral
> 010 fleet admiral
> 011 sector admiral
> 012 grand admiral
> 013 imperial grand admiral
> 
> --Glenn

Glenn, 

Why did you opt for Cadet instead of Midshipman?

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 1998 13:26 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Howdy all,

I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
milieu?

The tech level would be high:

	starship-sized matter portals are (recently?) feasible;
	jump drives are smaller and may use less fuel;
	small jumpships are common, though expensive;
	stepping discs have replaced grav vehicles for surface
		transport on modernized worlds;
	research into building rosettes is being pursued earnestly or done;
	world terraforming (for rich systems only) proves a
		great way to ship out a waterworld's excessive ocean;
	intrigue and bloodshed are common as systems swallow up
		the administration of lesser systems (if transport
		is nearly immediate).

The 4I would look quite a bit different than the 3I -- as different
as the 3I looked to the RoM as to the 1I.

Perhaps ship-sized matter portals would be constrained in the same
way the jump drive is constrained: portals range from 1 to N parsecs,
with one week travel time between points.  Portal range would have a
ceiling based on the current TL -- would it behave like a jump
projector with a focusing element?  OTOH, portals may be something
else entirely, more like the teleportation discs found at Twilight's
Peak: nearly instantaneous transportation, with the attendant administrative
implications.

What years would the 4I range over?  3I 2000+?  3I 3000+?

From 3I years 0 to 1100 the TL went from 12 to 15.  The Long Night
reduced the TL from 13 or 14 down to 12.  MT showed many major worlds
at TL16; did TNE surpass this in any significant amount?

If TL16 was held onto, and even TL17 by advanced groups (Darrians),
then perhaps after 1000 years the TL could be as high as the low 20's.

Anyone have opinions on this?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:57:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: StarShade <dstar2@infinet.com>
Subject: Advanced vehicles?

I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance 
would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane using 
tech level 15 materials? 

Besides the better engines - what would the "material" do for the 
operation of the plane? would it be a better than the TL6 - I guess it 
must be - but at what factors? could it ingage a TL15 designed fighter 
and defeat it or have a chance at defeating it?

I hope I express this situation okay? 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 98 20:08 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)

Moin Robert Eaglestone,

> I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
> milieu?

	a forth imperium would be after the empress wave. so we have
	faster than light communications, psionic wandering knights,
	sentient robots, ...

	the 4th imperium wont be traveller as we know it!

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #451
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 452



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)
Re: Impending loss of ISP
RE: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules
Re: A New Free Trader
re: Spin habs in combat
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives
Re: Weather in Space
Adventure Hooks
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Imperial Navy ranks
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Advanced vehicles?
re: Spin habs in combat
Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: 4th Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:44:33 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)

No but it might be the Star Wars universe

Dave(who is just kidding)

- ----------
> From: Michael Koehne <kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de>
> To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 1:00 PM
> 
> Moin Robert Eaglestone,
> 
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
> > milieu?
> 
> 	a forth imperium would be after the empress wave. so we have
> 	faster than light communications, psionic wandering knights,
> 	sentient robots, ...
> 
> 	the 4th imperium wont be traveller as we know it!
> 
> -- 
>  mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
> 		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:50:49 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)

Someone tell me, what the heck is the Empress Wave?????????


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM


On Thu, 30 Apr 98 20:08  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
writes:
>Moin Robert Eaglestone,
>
>> I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
>> milieu?
>
>	a forth imperium would be after the empress wave. so we have
>	faster than light communications, psionic wandering knights,
>	sentient robots, ...
>
>	the 4th imperium wont be traveller as we know it!
>
>-- 
>
mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
>		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:51:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Impending loss of ISP

Howdy!

Andrew Vallance wrote:
> Well my ISP has just gone into receivership, so I soon expect my access
> to be cut in the very near future (hopefully this will only be a temporary
> problem). However I would like to find a temporary home for at least some
> of my traveller web pages (specifically the Luriani, the Ine Givar, the
> History of the Interstellar Wars and Paul Walkers excellent shipyard rules).
> If anyone would kindly like to host them until I can get a new site could
> they please drop me a line *quickly*. Or just grab them off my site.
> 
> If anybody else would like a copy of any of these, please email me (since I
> don't expect this address to be around much longer, please do so quickly).
> 
> May I also wish a found farewell to my many friends; I hope to see you all
> again very soon.
> 
Well, if you point your browser at
http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/traveller/vallance/Trav/Traveller.htm,
you will find the entire traveller site available to you...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:50:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules

Brian Mays posted:
>
>>A gas gaint has a gravity well that extends *way* out. And I don't buy
>>"floating" at the lower altitudes where the atmosphere is as denses as
>>"normal" atmosphere, much less deeper. The weather would be worse than
>>any hurricane on earth.
>
>Now that we know that Jupiter (and supposedly other gas giants) have
>enormous, amazingly powerful magnetic fields, how do we justify a ship
>being able to get close enough to refuel without suffering massive
damage?
>
>Just wonderin', that's all . . .

Hmm..I always thought skimming was performed by diving at the
magnetic poles. Is this a viable tactic? If so, it would make it
easy to find/target any skimming star/spaceships.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:58:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader

On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:

> And this is still something I have a problem with! If an open air raft can
> reach orbit (and land I assume) on CG, why does a ship have to be
> streamlined at all?! I can understand streamlineing for performance reasons,
> but not as arequirement to drift into the atmoshere of any planet and drift
> about on CG while the compressors work.
> 

Arrrrggghhhhhh NO! NOT THE UNSTREAMLINED SHIPS IN AN ATMOSPHERE ARGUMENT!!
NOT AGAIN!!!! :-)

Because, Air/rafts, as usually pictured, even though they are open topped,
are typically streamlined. Any vehicle meant to operate in an atmosphere
will be at least somewhat aerodynamic...It may have the aerodynamic
properties of a brick, or an f-104 fighter (much the same thing, though
the F-104 is a bit pointier) and depend on raw thrust to get where it's
going, but it is <quote> streamlined <endquote> by the rules of the game.

An open air/raft will have one bitchkitty of a ride when it gets up to the
jetstream, and pray you don't hit any clear air turbulence, or a
thunderstorm, or an updraft over a mountain, or any number of the other
nice things our atmosphere can do to man-made things flying around in it.

IMTU, an air/raft CAN reach orbital altitude in theory, but only the most
desperate will actually try this.
 
Unstreamlined, or Open Frame spacecraft are typically that way because
they take advantage of the ability to stick things all over without regard
to how they behave in an atmosphere.

In a GG, if you drift in slowly, you're still subject to the local
weather. For an example of such weather take a look at Jupiter. That big
red thing there...that's a hurricane that's been going for centuries, at
least, with winds of around 180 miles per hour.

For an example of what _happens_ to unstreamlined vehicles in such wids I
refer you to The Weather Channel, where they typically show bits of
hurricanes blowing stuff all to hell fairly frequently.

Even minor crosswinds can wreak havoc on even perfectly drifting objects
(theoretically at rest with respect to the local wind) look what happens
to hot air baloons when they get into sticky weather.

That's why unstreamlined starships can't enter atmospheres.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:05:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:

>The only down side of this is that both sections will end up rotating.
>In space, there is no "stationary" and you Newton rules... if you have
>a spinning section you need to slow down or speed up while keeping
>another section non-rotating, you'll need either some kind of thruster
>or a flywheel to store that rotational momentum in.

I don't believe you are correct (but I may be wrong)... you directly remove
the kinetic energy and convert it to electrical energy. The spin section
slows down as a result. Transfer losses are in heat in the system
converting (the generator). You are effectively removing the 'v' from the
mv of the momentum.

We used to stop flywheels from 50k rpm at work by driving them like this.
They had pretty insignificant friction and operated in a vacuum. I suppose
there was a low <2 Nm torque acting in this case, but you could balance
this out with judicious use of thrusters. Looking back, I suppose that
means I agree with you ;-)

Dom




- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:19:58 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

I hate stepping into these heated debates, but since I made some of the
pro-drop tank comments that started this off....

Hans Ranke-Madsen responded to David Summers:

> > Wed, 29 Apr 1998 14:56:38 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
> >>Of course, to be consistent you'd then have to be a warm advocate of
> >>jump torpedoes, because they were mentioned in the first edition of the
> >>original 3 black books and were subsequently dropped (causing a lot of
> >>underserved abuse to be heaped on the heads of the authors of _Leviathan_
> >>over the years.
> > 
> >I find this hard to believe.  I have a very early version they don't
> >appear in.
>
> And I have one where they do appear. So have at least one other on the list
> (I didn't realize this myself until I saw someone claim it and went and
> checked my own copy).

It's in the early, early version of Book 2, in the section on consumables
and custom missiles.  As I recall, it states that the referee may make 
available alternative missile designs besides homing nukes, such as mines,
controlled missiles, and jump torpedoes.  No rules or guidelines for the
actual devices are included, those being the days when as Dave Arneson 
once said, "there were no rules, only a referee with a whip and a chair".

Not all versions of CT are created equal.  The black books I have give
the scale for miniature-based space combat at 1" == 1000 miles!  Later
editions of Book 2, thankfully, went metric, but too late for the world
UWP system in Book 3....  

Personally, I'll admit I don't mind either jump torpedoes or drop tanks.
I agree with Hans that by all indications, commercial drop tank operation
is only going on in the deep interior of the Imperium, and frankly, we
didn't see much of that in peacetime.  By MegaTraveller (1118+), the 
Rebellion has progressed far enough that any traffic of that sort that
still existed would be deep in the Safes, and players (on the frontier
or front lines) would still see mostly old-fashioned non-drop tank 
traffic.  Jump torpedoes might work; they could be unreliable, or more
expensive to operate (no engineer to babysit it in jump), or just not
able to carry enough data (such as pseudoreality commo).  If you don't
like 'em, don't use 'em.  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:30:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
 
> Flares correlate to *some* extent with sunspots. But the sunspot cycles
> take decades of observation to figure out because they are that long.
> Sol's main cycle is 22 years, though the two halves of the cycle are
> similar enough that you can refer to an 11 year cycle.
> 
> The idea is that when you first arrive, you don't know if this is the
> "light" part of the cycle or the "heavy" part. Imagine the "fun" if you
> assume that the high number of flares means that you are in the "heavy"
> part of the cycle, and then as the years go by, you discovere that it
> was the *light* part, and you are getting flares far stronger and far
> more often than you designed space facilities to handle. Oops.
> 

I rather suspect by the time we've had 3000 years to do astronomy with a
sample size in the thousands, we'll be a _bit_ better at figuring these
things out that we are with less than a hundred years of decent
observations and an N of one.

we might even know what _does_ accurately predict flares...other than a
bunch of Darrians huddled around that big, weird looking machine over
there...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: 30 Apr 1998 15:30 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Adventure Hooks

I'd like to solicit everyone out there for adventure hooks
for my campaign, as well as hints and ideas about how to
be a good referee in general.

If I get a lot of useful responses, I will post them on my
Traveller website alongside the IMTU, ATC and TAP.  I'll 
give it a horrible acronym, too, like UHaIaH2BaGR (Useful
Hints and Ideas about How to Be a Good Referee).

The group has found themselves on a dead world, the product
of a major planetary war.  They are in a mostly dead subsector,
two subsectors Spinward of the 3I.  I am not using canonical
starcharts for these subsectors.

On several systems are the equivalent of berserkers, complete
with factories, scouts, and behemoth destroyers.  In the
adjacent subsector lies starfaring human colonies, with fair
interstellar tech in clusters of confederations.

Our heroes must pass through the berserker subsector, then 
through the civilized subsector, in an old, crippled but high-TL
ship in orbit around the world they're on.  They must evade
destroyers, aid humans, and struggle through they subsectors
to re-enter the Imperium.  They will re-enter the Imperium
via Chamax and probably the Darrian Confederation.

1) Should the volume of space be narrowed?
   One subsector only?
   Half of a subsector?

2) What patrons may they meet?  What major NPCs?

3) What tasks may they be able to perform to help themselves
   get back to civilization?

4) What things may they find?

5) What situations might they get themselves into?

6) What situations might they find themselves thrust into?

7) How do I get a lot of interesting play out of each world
   they visit?

8) What is a good way to detail worlds?  Not topography, but
   adventure-related, tangible things.  And they don't need
   additional dead races, I've got plenty of them already.

Any suggestions at all would be helpful.  Thanks in advance.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:47:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, StarShade wrote:

> I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance 
> would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane using 
> tech level 15 materials? 
> 
> Besides the better engines - what would the "material" do for the 
> operation of the plane? would it be a better than the TL6 - I guess it 
> must be - but at what factors? could it ingage a TL15 designed fighter 
> and defeat it or have a chance at defeating it?
> 
> I hope I express this situation okay? 
> 

You would get a biplane that Baron Von Richthoven would give one or _two_
gonads to possess, one that _might_ stand it's own against WWII
fighters, if it could jump on them low and slow, but would be vapor if it
ran up against your average TL-15 hypersonic stealthed laser and missle
armed fighter.

You're talking, roughly, about a high tech design in much the same way a
Stimson biplane is today, a TL-8 rendition of a TL-5 craft, with higher
performance and durablility, but not radically altered flight
characteristics...an open cockpit biplane ain't gonna do supersonic, or
even much above a couple of hundred miles/hour.

OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the allies
that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.

Only there isn't enough metal in the planes of the day for his radar
guided missles to lock on, and they don't have that lovely 1000 degree jet
exhaust for his heat seekers to find. 

A classic time travel story.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:48:48 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy ranks

Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> > From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
> > That was the point I was trying to make. I've long been of the opinion that
> > a multi-sector interstellar state needs more ranks than a single country
> > on a balkanized planet and that the historical instances of ranks higher
> > than four-star generals was an argument in my favor. Unfortunately Douglas
>
> I tend to agree, but I use the following ranks:

[snip]

> 09 vice admiral
> 010 fleet admiral
> 011 sector admiral
> 012 grand admiral
> 013 imperial grand admiral

I think when you get to these 'ranks' the reason for not having them on the
promotions/ranks list is that these are ranks depend on a great deal of political
power and promotion to them will not be through standard military process.  Thus,
PCs shouldn't be able to attain these ranks in chargen.  For NPCs, IMHO, you
should just fiat the rank desired.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:54:36 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Heh, sounds like fun, wanna do it?


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM



On 30 Apr 1998 13:26 EDT "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> writes:
>Howdy all,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
>milieu?
>
>The tech level would be high:
>
>	starship-sized matter portals are (recently?) feasible;
>	jump drives are smaller and may use less fuel;
>	small jumpships are common, though expensive;
>	stepping discs have replaced grav vehicles for surface
>		transport on modernized worlds;
>	research into building rosettes is being pursued earnestly or 
>done;
>	world terraforming (for rich systems only) proves a
>		great way to ship out a waterworld's excessive ocean;
>	intrigue and bloodshed are common as systems swallow up
>		the administration of lesser systems (if transport
>		is nearly immediate).
>
>The 4I would look quite a bit different than the 3I -- as different
>as the 3I looked to the RoM as to the 1I.
>
>Perhaps ship-sized matter portals would be constrained in the same
>way the jump drive is constrained: portals range from 1 to N parsecs,
>with one week travel time between points.  Portal range would have a
>ceiling based on the current TL -- would it behave like a jump
>projector with a focusing element?  OTOH, portals may be something
>else entirely, more like the teleportation discs found at Twilight's
>Peak: nearly instantaneous transportation, with the attendant 
>administrative
>implications.
>
>What years would the 4I range over?  3I 2000+?  3I 3000+?
>
>>From 3I years 0 to 1100 the TL went from 12 to 15.  The Long Night
>reduced the TL from 13 or 14 down to 12.  MT showed many major worlds
>at TL16; did TNE surpass this in any significant amount?
>
>If TL16 was held onto, and even TL17 by advanced groups (Darrians),
>then perhaps after 1000 years the TL could be as high as the low 20's.
>
>Anyone have opinions on this?
>
>Rob
>

_____________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:51:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
> milieu?

[snip]

> >From 3I years 0 to 1100 the TL went from 12 to 15.  The Long Night
> reduced the TL from 13 or 14 down to 12.  MT showed many major worlds
> at TL16; did TNE surpass this in any significant amount?
>
> If TL16 was held onto, and even TL17 by advanced groups (Darrians),
> then perhaps after 1000 years the TL could be as high as the low 20's.

Where would FTL communications go?  If anywhere?

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:57:31 -0700
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

- ----------
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?
> Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 12:47 PM
> 
> OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
> aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
> whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
> vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
> transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the
allies
> that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.
> 
> Only there isn't enough metal in the planes of the day for his radar
> guided missles to lock on, and they don't have that lovely 1000 degree
jet
> exhaust for his heat seekers to find. 
> 
> A classic time travel story.
> 
Yah and if I remember correctly( it was published in ANALOG?) the pilot had to find
them visually and fly thru them at supersonic speed to knock them out of the air.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 11:58:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

>Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 00:03:56 +0100
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: re: Spin habs in combat
>
>shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

  Nope. The following wasn't my contribution, but it seems accurate enough.

>>>Not really useful if you have little time prior to combat.  Also, you
>>>need a fly-wheel system to take up the rotational energy, stopping spin
>>>habs is not easy, and takes time.  If you keep them rotating during fold
>>>in, the rotation rate will also increase, putting additional stress  on
>>>the structure.
>
>You don't need a flywheel. Set up magnets in the rotating section (lets
>call it a rotor) and in the stationary section (lets call it a stator) and
>use the whole spin assembly as a generator (like regenerative breaking) and
>convert the kinetic energy into electrical, which you then use to charge up
>your screens and HPGs in 2300....

  Yep. I was more concerned with the overall structure than the (important,
of course) engineering details.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:57:23 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Arrrrggghhhhhh NO! NOT THE UNSTREAMLINED SHIPS IN AN ATMOSPHERE ARGUMENT!!
> NOT AGAIN!!!! :-)

Heh heh heh...
> Even minor crosswinds can wreak havoc on even perfectly drifting objects
> (theoretically at rest with respect to the local wind) look what happens
> to hot air baloons when they get into sticky weather.
> 
> That's why unstreamlined starships can't enter atmospheres.

I agree with the points about entering a gas giant storm or even a
storm on an Earth-like planet.  This last sentence, I don't necessarily
agree with.

Unstreamlined ships will certainly have problems with high-speed
maneuvering (mostly if they are asymetrical) but wouldn't have any
problems with low speed maneuvers.  CG equipped ships should have the
easist time floating around.  They might have problems with nasty
weather, but are generally going to be quite a bit tougher than hot
air balloons and have significantly more maneuvering capability than
most hot air balloons.  The above is mainly going to apply to ships
with significant amounts of thrust (well over 1 G or local gravity
and/or CG).

Going to or from orbit in such a ship will take quite a while as the
ship will be limited in speed, but should be quite possible.
Again, avoid hurricants and thunderstorms and the like but turbulence
won't affect such a ship any more than any other (aerodynamic ships
are affected by turbulence and hurricanes, look at what happens to
airplanes that fly into hurricanes or bad turbulence).  In fact, a
slow moving ship may have an easier time of it simply because it's
slow moving.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:59:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
> aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
> whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
> vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
> transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the allies
> that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.
> 
> Only there isn't enough metal in the planes of the day for his radar
> guided missles to lock on, and they don't have that lovely 1000 degree jet
> exhaust for his heat seekers to find. 

He does find, though, that jetwash blows the relatively flimsy planes
into bits of wood and canvas.  :)

> A classic time travel story.

I wish I remembered the title and author, too... a very good story.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:51:53 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: 4th Imperium

A few years ago I started a campaign set in 1500 (Imperial reckoning),
because I finally realized I really, really, really hated the New Era
setting. It never amounted to much, because I ended up moving, but I liked
it.

In my version though, it wasn't a 4th Imperium, it was a Republic. And in
fact, it was made up of virtually all the various empires - the Imperium,
Solomani, Zhodani, even parts of Vargr, K'kree and Aslan space. (No hivers
- - IMTU, someone created a virus to kill them off - and their various
subject races took over their space). 

Most of the adventures in the game came from exploring new space and
recontacting planets on the fringes of known space. 

The average tech level was still pretty low, but several planets had
reached TL 17 and 18 (and in once case, 19), so you started to see some
exotic gizmos.  There were also quite a few sentient robots and talking
toasters and the like (a less homicidal virus strain was developed).  

All in all, it was pretty much an extrapolation of what I thought Traveller
was heading towards when it sputtered out - (ie, The Regency was fairly
democratic, the Zhodani were being nice, some of the Virus was being nice,
everyone was getting sick of the Hivers, humans were getting tired of
fighting each other, etc)

Anyway, no it wasn't exactly like the Traveller as we know it, but then
again , neither was Milieu 0 (IMHO) nor was T:TNE (compared to CT & MT),
and so on...

                                                      Jeremy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #452
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Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 453



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Changing the background & Jump drives
Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
Re: Advanced vehicles?
My Web pages
Re: Adventure Hooks
Re: 4th Imperium
Fusion Powered Acceleration
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Imperial Navy ranks
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Changing the background
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:56:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
...
>for politcal and social interaction.  You have also based this on the
>unsupportable
>(by your own admission) that you will be able to see all the
>ramifications.

  You may be mistaking one of Hans pro-drop-tank posts for one of
my anti-drop-tank related posts. But I never claimed to be able to
foresee all the ramifications of a change either; in fact, I specified
the inability to do so.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:02:19 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!

Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:38:06 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
>   Is it just my imagination, or aren't pirates going to be
> incontrovertibly, 100% SOL as far as vessels jumping from a
> tanker/station point are concerned?

It will depend.  First on who close to your intended point
you come in.  (if ships are coming a day later or earlier
than intended, they may be scattered significantly away
from the intended point).  It also depends on how good
a job the imperium does of protecting the points.  If
they try and cut corners and stick a small SDB or armed
scout ship to protect it, then someone may be some
ships together to raid it.

>   Even hijackers (as distinct from pirates) are going to have
> problems, given the small window to reprogram the jump before
> the ship is committed to arriving with dry tanks at a police
> checkpoint.

I would think they would just pretend to be the legit
operators.  (They have all the ships documents).

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:14:25 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

There's also the fairly decent movie, the Final Countdown (?), starring
Martin Sheen, in which a modern aircraft carrier ends up in the pacific
just before Pearl Harbor. There's a scene where two F14 Tomcats dogfight a
couple of Zeros.  The Tomcat pilots just screw around, until the Zeros take
a shot at them. 

>OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
>aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
>whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
>vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
>transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the allies
>that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:12:40 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: My Web pages

Jo Grant has kindly offered to host the revelant pages at CORE.
They also found at David Smarts pages and Pauls shipyard rules at
James Clems. Thanks to every one, I will try to respond to every
one pesonally if time and ISP permits. Hopefully this will all be
but a temporary lull :*>.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/abuse/abuse.htm (child abuse site)
****************************************************************************
"Worst thing about being a multiple is filling out the name tags"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:28:01 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Adventure Hooks

At 03:30 PM 4/30/98 -0400, Rob Eagleston wrote:
>The group has found themselves on a dead world, the product
>of a major planetary war...

Groovy.  We have a Spooky Setting.  This can be milked for lots of theater.

>On several systems are the equivalent of berserkers, complete
>with factories, scouts, and behemoth destroyers.

And now we have an Evil Impersonal Enemy.  Do not let the enemy be defeated
too soon, but do allow regular victories, as long as they perform sensible
actions, like running when things are not good.

>Our heroes must pass through the berserker subsector, then 
>through the civilized subsector, in an old, crippled but high-TL
>ship in orbit around the world they're on.

And finally, the Great Escape.

These are the elements that have made up some of my more fun campaigns.

>1) Should the volume of space be narrowed?
>   One subsector only?
>   Half of a subsector?

Keep it small!  Remember, unless you go hog wild detailing things, or
setting the course very explicitly, you will need a LOT of information
about each one.  If you have a full sector or even a full subsector, you
are letting yourself in for a lot of world design work.

My suggestion (and bear in mind that it is only a suggestion) is to plot
the adventure like a book:

Make a list of overall plot elements.  For example, my current game:
1.  Introduction
2.  The Briefing by Mr. Shoes
3.  The Setup, wherein the sides are declared
4.  The Investigation, where they find out the Real Story
5.  The Setback, wherein the Villains cause trouble for the heroes
6a. The Going to Ground where they sneak past the bad guys
or
6b. The Making a Bold Stand
7.  The Escape
8.  The Gathering of Good Guys
9.  The Bringing to Justice.

Each of these elements usually happens in a dramatically different scene,
though important people will drift from one to another.  The Escape, for
example, was when they crept away from the bad guys on a mining moon, and
fled off planet.


The Gathering was when they convinced a rather unfriendly Ministry of
Justice commander to come back with them, along with a few handy Marines.
Had they not done the Escape correctly, the Villains would have applied
pressure, making official help almost impossible to find.

>2) What patrons may they meet?  What major NPCs?

Each scene should have a couple of named people, not all of which are
important.  I usually shoot for three or four at least, so that it is not
obvious who the really important people are.  I also rarely have people who
are entirely helpful or harmful.  For example, in the last session, my
players happened to ask a person with a grudge against a major bad guy for
help, and got a near complete explanation for a major section of unknown
details.  They do not yet believe these facts, and verifying them will be
quite dangerous, but the encounter was quite lucky.

In essence, remember that unless they have a high profile, they are not
likely to gather a lot of official interest, thus most encounters should
not move the plot along.  Most scenes, on the other hand, should.  To cover
this, I usually have them beg, buy, or steal some research, and then have
the research produce useful information.  As a result, even if they are
talking to someone who will not advance the plot directly, they may well
choose to involve this otherwise unrelated person.

For example, in one game, they befriended an out of work engineer, who
later on was quite useful when they needed some background information on
an alien weapons system.

>3) What tasks may they be able to perform to help themselves

>   get back to civilization?

Repair tasks are big, as are spook tasks.  Research into who the enemy is
are also pretty handy.

>4) What things may they find?

Lots of gimmicks, and lots of experiences.  Work hard to make each scene,
and thus each planet or location on each planet, different enough to
remember.  Also, try to make the individual people memorable.

>5) What situations might they get themselves into?

Look for conflicts in the situation.  It is usually from conflict that
interesting events happen.  For example, if they are in a broken down, high
tech ship, a number of worlds are going to want to take it off their hands
to take it apart.  The players might protest, but might also need the help
of the people who want their ship.

>6) What situations might they find themselves thrust into?

Try to avoid putting them in situations where self interest is completely
opposed to the plan you have for a scenario.  Some self interest <-> good
nature conflicts are good, but if it becomes too extreme, players rebel.
For example, in The Long Way Home, it was clear to the players that they
should act as do gooders on all sorts of planets.  The players, on the
other hand, had little reason to want to do this - they were a LONG way
from home, and thought getting involved in petty planetary disputes a
really bad idea.

>7) How do I get a lot of interesting play out of each world
>   they visit?

Make them interesting.  Buy a tour book for a place you have never been,
and then see what the natives think about it.  Map it upwards for a whole
planet.

>8) What is a good way to detail worlds?  Not topography, but
>   adventure-related, tangible things.  And they don't need
>   additional dead races, I've got plenty of them already.

Consider - except for good science bits, the real interesting thing is the
people.  A good way to get some ideas is to pick up a large survey book,
and open at random.  Whichever culture you hit is likely a good source for
ideas.  The players had a great time when Belisarius (renamed to Ishiiki
Verdun, the Vliani halfbreed) showed up, and used them as a bunch of
couriers.  He had the guns, and then the money, and then the loyalty to
keep them going all sorts of places, and his descriptions of the vile,
corrupt court had them annoyed and morally indignant on a regular basis.

A final note - my current episode has taken place on Sylea (TAS, the
Palace, the Moot, the Cafe, the Embassy to Amur Isark, and numerous
ballrooms and hotels), Amur Isark (the City, the Underground Home of the
Archons, the Wilderness, the Forest, and numerous rugged outdoorsy spots),
fours ships (a merchant, a courier, and two cruisers), and will soon go to
the Queendom homeworld.  This last may be interrupted, if the players
decide to try to hook up with the Amazing High Tech Alien (Darrian, in this
case) Conspiracy.

The game has run for a good six or eight months, and probably has another
couple of months before they have to make a final decision about whether
energy being is on their things to be list.

What has kept it interesting has been the large number (>200) characters I
have created.  Many of them were walk ons with just a name or a job, but
they all had a name and a one sentence description, which made the players
want to know what happens.  Sylea, in this episode, is inhabited by a lot
of people that they know, and they are interested in what happens to them.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 17:30:22 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: 4th Imperium

I think I'd rather see the 4th Imperium come barreling back from TNE,
ready to rip the **** out of anyone who gets in their way.  They'd be
suspicious of AI, after Virus, but maybe not so hard on Psi.  The Zhodani
could find themselves scrambling for their own lives, with the advantages
of Psi fading away.  I could see, oh, say, some world in The Spinward
Marches becoming the new Silea, stretching out in leaps and bounds.  

starship-sized matter portals are (recently?)
feasible*******************Dont really like this, just not Traveller
IMNSHO

jump drives are smaller and may use less fuel*******************Seems
reasonable

small jumpships are common, though expensive*******************Sounds
good as well

stepping discs have replaced grav vehicles for surface transport on
modernized worlds**************Hmm, gotta consider this.........maybe
VERY expensive/Difficult

research into building rosettes is being pursued earnestly or
done************Maybe, seems a bit too powerful

world terraforming (for rich systems only) proves a great way to ship out
a waterworld's excessive ocean******Yeps

intrigue and bloodshed are common as systems swallow up the
administration of lesser systems (if transport is nearly
immediate).****************We need to keep transport under control, else
we get something other than Traveller.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E., Space Viking (Ya Lars!  Now ve vill nuke dem till
dey glows, und shoots dem in de dark!!)
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
IMTU tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+) pi+ he++ merc++
dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM



On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:51:53 -0500 "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
writes:
>A few years ago I started a campaign set in 1500 (Imperial reckoning),
>because I finally realized I really, really, really hated the New Era
>setting. It never amounted to much, because I ended up moving, but I 
>liked
>it.
>
>In my version though, it wasn't a 4th Imperium, it was a Republic. And 
>in
>fact, it was made up of virtually all the various empires - the 
>Imperium,
>Solomani, Zhodani, even parts of Vargr, K'kree and Aslan space. (No 
>hivers
>- IMTU, someone created a virus to kill them off - and their various
>subject races took over their space). 
>
>Most of the adventures in the game came from exploring new space and
>recontacting planets on the fringes of known space. 
>
>The average tech level was still pretty low, but several planets had
>reached TL 17 and 18 (and in once case, 19), so you started to see 
>some
>exotic gizmos.  There were also quite a few sentient robots and 
>talking
>toasters and the like (a less homicidal virus strain was developed).  
>
>All in all, it was pretty much an extrapolation of what I thought 
>Traveller
>was heading towards when it sputtered out - (ie, The Regency was 
>fairly
>democratic, the Zhodani were being nice, some of the Virus was being 
>nice,
>everyone was getting sick of the Hivers, humans were getting tired of
>fighting each other, etc)
>
>Anyway, no it wasn't exactly like the Traveller as we know it, but 
>then
>again , neither was Milieu 0 (IMHO) nor was T:TNE (compared to CT & 
>MT),
>and so on...
>
>                                                      Jeremy
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:33:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Fusion Powered Acceleration

Hi folks. I've been screwing around with the idea of creating some
new rules for fusion-powered maneuver drives, and as I was running
the numbers, I came across some conclusions that are so totally
opposite my preconceptions that I thought I'd pick your brains to
find out what I'm doing wrong. Keep in mind when you're going over
this that I'm probably the last person on this list who would ever
start a gearhead discussion. My familiarity with physics amounts to
a few brief articles in some 30-year-old encyclopedias weighing
down my bookshelf. I've never taken a class in the stuff, not even
in highschool, so you can safely assume that the following material
is error-infested. So much for my general disclaimer. Now here we
go...

I started with the idea of typical solar fusion:

protium + protium => deuterium
protium + deuterium => helium-1
helium-1 + helium-1 => helium-2 + 2 protiums

So, in total, 4 protiums (hydrogen-1) are converted to 1 helium-2
4 protiums weigh in at 4.03188 amu
The helium-2 weighs in at 4.0026 amu
So we've got a mass loss of .72%

This was a tad higher than what I anticipated, but no biggie.

I went on to assume that the formula for fusion-powered energy
conversion is:

e=mc^2

where e is the energy in joules,
m is the conversion mass in kilograms
   (that .72% of the reaction mass), and
c is the speed of light in meters per second.

I don't know why this should be the case, but it's what I read
somewhere. Even assuming the equation is correct for this purpose,
I'm still concerned about my units, so somebody please check them
out. I'm no expert.

Onward and forward... if this is all correct so far, then fusing
one gram of protium results in:

m = .001 * .0072
c = 299,792,000
e = mc^ = 647,101,700,000 joules

The next question was how to convert this to accelleration,
assuming that the 99.28% of the reaction mass, now in the form of
helium-2, could be shoved out the back side of our make-believe
starship. Again, I'm uncertain about my formula as well as my
units, so please correct me, but my assumption was that:

1 joule = .74 poundals
        = .74 feet/sec delta for 1 pound in 1 second
        = .74 * .3048 m/sec delta for .4536 kg in 1 second
        = .2256 m/sec delta for .4536 kg in 1 second
        = .1023 m/sec delta for 1 kg in 1 second

Or to state this another way, you get .1023 m/s/s accelleration for
1 second if you apply 1 joule to 1 kilograms. The accelleration
increases linearly with joules and decreases linearly with
kilograms. So, we can say:

a = .1023 j / m

where

a = accelleration in meters/sec (for one second)
j = joules
m = starship mass in kg

We can even reduce to this to gees of accelleration by simply
assuming 1 gee = 10 m/s/s so that

a = .01023 j / m

where

a = accelleration in gees (for one second)
j = joules
m = starship mass in kg

So let's say that the starship is about 1,000,000,000 kg. What
would this be in tons? A million or so? And we already know that if
they're burning 1 gram of protium per second, then they've got
647,101,700,000 joules per second to work with.

a = .04972 (647,101,700,000) / (1,000,000,000) = 6.6 gees

We'll have to assume they've got some inertial compensation
technology considering this level of accelleration. Ignoring
relativity for the moment, they should be doing lightspeed within
less than eleven days:

c = 299,792,000 m/s
1 gee = 10m/s/s, so 6.6 gees = 66m/s/s
So 299,792,000 / 66 = 4542303 seconds = 52.5 days

In that time that would burn off 4542 kg of protium, which is a
miniscule fraction of the total mass of the starship
(1,000,000,000kg). This is the result that I find the most
ludicrous. In all the hard science-fiction that I've read it's
generally assumed that if you want to get near lightspeed (where
you can take advantage of time-dilation to shorten the perceived
duration of your journey), you've either got to gather fuel as you
go (ala the Bussard fusion ramjet, Cosmos p205) or got to have some
humongous tank for your fuel, because you're going to need a lot of
it. Here, I'm computing a ridiculously small fuel tank (in
comparison to the size of the overall vessel). Is this wrong or
what?

Now, accounting for relativity will change the results, but
probably not to the point that a "large" percentage of the ship
will need to be allocated to fuel. If I'm not mistaken, under
relativity accelleration must be multiplied by (1-z^2)^(.5) where
z is the percentage of lightspeed (expressed as a number between 0
and 1) at which the starship is traveling at any given moment.

This brings up another question. Under newtonian mechanics, if we
assume 1 gee (10m/s/s) accelleration, then velocity equals the
integral of accelleration, and distance equals the integral of
velocity (since this is a text-only environment, I'll use the
notation I[x]dx to represent the integral of x).

So, to restate this:

if a = 10 then
v = I[10]dx = 10x
d = I[10x]dx = 10 (x^2/2) = 5x^2

where a=accelleration in meters/sec/sec, v=velocity in meters/sec,
d=distance in meters, and x=time in seconds since the start of
accelleration. Substituting in the relativistic equation of
accelleration, we get:

a=10(1-z^2)^(.5) where z=v/299792000
a=10(1-(v/299782000)^2)^(.5)
v=I[10(1-(v/299782000)^2)^(.5)]dx

At this point my math skills break down and I'm not too sure how to
proceed. Anybody want to take over? The whole point of this is that
I'd like a simple formula or procedure into which you can plug in
a newtonian value for accelleration (10 in this example) along with
x (time), and get relativistic values for v (velocity) and d
(distance).

Later... jimv@empirenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:02:14 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:17:01 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >That is hard to accept.  The implications are straightforward and
> >if the factions had time to research new AI Viruses they could have
> >explored such a fundamental advantage.  In fact, the implications of
> >drop tanks would have been obvious in the decade or two that passed
> >between when they introduced and and the rebellion and they would have
> >been of much greater interest than they were presented as having.

>   Well, there are two periods to consider, obviously, specifically
> pre-Rebellion and during the war.

>   We are forced to assume (if d-tanks are functional) that the mega
> corps didn't institute wide-spread d-tank operations, certainly not
> on the periphery, anyway. The TNS item about the destroyed liner
> might have a lot to do with it - the liability implications might
> have encouraged them to wait years to ensure that risk levels were
> low

But they _had_ years (decades) before the rebellion.

>   Further, the authorities clearly have security concerns (post-FFW)
> that affect their willingness to see such a system installed too
> soon.

Such as?  Drop tanks make shiping follow predictable paths and
would have been a boon to security.

>   Once the Rebellion occurs, and the entire Imperium becomes a hunting
> ground for commerce raiders, then developing such a system would be
> suicidal.

You just defend the well defined supply routes (which is what you
would do drop tanks or no.)

> Not only would the resources be needed elsewhere

The saving in cost would free up resources, at a minor investemnt
(remember, they were already invented, they just had to, at worst,
fix a few bugs.)

However, this all gets to be a minor point to me.  I don't think
this whole approach is a good way to go.  Introducing a new technology
then immediately hedge it in with restrictions and coincidences to
make sure it never was widely adopted (and you either need to 
refuse to advance the timeline, or keep up restrictions, etc.
to make sure the possible ramifications don't develop in the
future) is something I have always found to be a mistake.
It make the background hokey when players start poking holes
in your web of restrictions you have to pile more on, making
things worse.
_____________________________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:38:09 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu (fwd)

james a clem wrote:
> 
> Someone tell me, what the heck is the Empress Wave?????????
Well, at this point, anything you can imagine that makes the Zhodani crazy, moves at
lightspeed rimward and will therefore also pass Imperial Space, with unknown effects,
origin, etc...
Or to say it differently, unless someone "in the know" (i am thinking of certain
GDW-employees involved with TNE here.....) 
spills the beans, your guess is as good as mine.
BTW: Info on the EW can be found in : 
TNE-rulebook, Survival Margin, Regency Sourcebook

(Gee, i wish there had been a book like SM for TNE as well)


- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:05:29 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

At 01:26 PM 4/30/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Howdy all,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
>milieu?
>
>The tech level would be high:
>
>	starship-sized matter portals are (recently?) feasible;

Right there you're at TL21 (MT Regeree's Companion, chart pgs 28-29)  Some
of the other goodies at this TL: Relativity Rifles, Jump-mobile planets,
and antimatter fuel pods giving 50Mw/liter.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:09:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy ranks

At 03:48 PM 4/30/98 -0400, you wrote:

>> 09 vice admiral
>> 010 fleet admiral
>> 011 sector admiral
>> 012 grand admiral
>> 013 imperial grand admiral
>
>I think when you get to these 'ranks' the reason for not having them on the
>promotions/ranks list is that these are ranks depend on a great deal of
>political power and promotion to them will not be through standard military 
>process. 

Exactly.  By making the position of Sector Admiral an a ssaignment carrying
nominal command over the fleets of the sector, you allow the Duke to pick
the correct sophont for the assignment, rather than the idiot with senority.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:13:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 03:23:35 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson)
> >> Meteor showers tend to occur when crossing the orbit of old comets. The
> >> density depends on what part of the orbit you cross (relative to the
> >> position of the comet).

> >> These too require decades or even *centuries* of observations to be
> >> able to predict.

> > Couldn't they be detected by "seeing" them coming in?  On sensors,
> > too?  I'm sure most hi-pop systems will have a pretty mean sensors
> > array as well as a small network of probes and bases, no?

> Trouble is, you are looking for stuff that's mostly "dust" and "grains
> of sand". That's not easy to detect at long range.

> Once you've got a path for the comet, you've got an area to search. You
> might even send out ships to take samples in various parts of the
> orbit.

> But a typical cometary orbit has a period of *centuries*. Halley's
> comet with it's 75 year period is actually a *short* period comet. 

You don't need to do this.  The micrometeors are strung out all along
the orbit of the comet (though there are periods if higher activity)
and you experience them, or not, based more on when the orbit of
the Earth (or your craft) crosses the orbit of the comet (anywhere
along it, and not too acurately.  The scatter of the meteors around
the orbit is going to greater than the uncertainty in the comets
orbit).  These are pretty easy to determine and if we had Travaller
sensors, all the ones that cross Earths orbit would have been done.

The meteor outbursts are going to be pretty predictable.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:19:23 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 13:32:07 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav
<tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
> But they don't accidentally screw with the background, because they as you
> have stated really had no impact on it at all. Why was that?

Because their consequences were unrealistically ignored.

> Sorry, but to me the way you put forth your arguments it seems
> like you want a universe were the background is a constant, never
> changing. To me that is a dull universe to play in.

And it seems to me you don't care a thing about realistic beleivable
background.  However, wouldn't you say that hurling personal 
(mis)characterizations at each other is a waste of time?

> no corporation is going to risk multi-milloin
> credit ships with having drop tank facilities in systems with unstable
> economies, war strucken systems, and so on.

The economy is irrelvant if you are financing and suppling from outside.
The systems with war struck worlds are rare and easily avoided.

>  You seem to accept the many
> constants that are in the Traveller rule books. Fuelcost is nearly
> constant, life support cost is constant, and so on. To me this is
> unbeleavable.

You don't know what I accept....
____________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:29:47 -0400
From: T Green <tgreen@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Howdy all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
> milieu?Steve Daniels wrote:

then
Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Where would FTL communications go?  If anywhere?

One of the core elements of Traveller is the use of feudalism, honor,
_noblesse_oblige_, and whatnot to manage an empire across a multi-year
communications lag.


Remember: the X-Boat network, for example, was set up at J-4 so that
local authorities could get early word (via Imperalines J-6 couriers
that look like the normal Imperialines liners, remember?) of major 
events, and to be prepared.


If you're talking about a "galactic village", don't call it Traveller.

<<tg>>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #453
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Thursday, April 30 1998      Volume 1998 : Number 454



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Changing the background & Jump drives
Re: Imperial Navy ranks
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Ranks
re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re-opening old wounds
Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
Good news?
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Fuel Skimming and Streamlining

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 15:43:43 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

[Note: this is in response to Hans, is probably not worth reading, and is that
last I have to say on the matter.  I wasn't even going to read his response,
it might have been better had I not.]

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:46:59 +0200 (METDST), Hans Rancke-Madsen
<rancke@diku.dk>
David P. Summers writes:

> >[My last post to Hans on this issue.  It has clearly reached the end of
> >the road of useful discussion.  Hans had been engaging in generalities
> >and I have seen this as OK because I saw it as time to summarize and wrap
> >this up. However, now Hans is ignoring that I have answered specifics and
> >the past and challenging with points we have already beaten to death.
> 
> You know, David, I've tried to restrain myself from escalating this out of
> the friendly discussion category

I'm sorry Hans.  You are the one that started up with snide remarks, slams
on what I was saying, and general escalated the situations.  I have several
times tried to explain that I'm not willing to play you little game 
in the hopes that it would be dropped.  This has only met more 
vigorous attacks.

>, but this and similar remarks are simply
> too provoking. To have my own points dismissed by a general statement and
> to have my requests for specific arguments dismissed with a mere repeat
> of the same general statement is bad enough

Hogwash.  I responded when you first made the points.  Just
because I won't do it again the second or third time you make them
just means I won't beat a dead horse.  It is also hypocritical
because you deal in generalizations just as much as I do and
many of the theads were only dealing with generalization because
you yourself answered specific points with generalizations (I
have specifically pointed out places where a post that was 
attacked for being a generalization was in fact a response to
something just as general from you.)

I've been in threads with you sever times where I answer a point,
then you, a gazillion posts later, repeat the same points (I don't know,
forgetting the original answers or just ignoring it) and go through
the same old stuff all over again (often simply assuming your side
has been "proven" because it wasn't mentioned recently).  I don't
have time for this.  I have a life.

> You have also , but to have you claim that
> you have, indeed, answered specifics, is just too much. So I'm going to
> say flat out that what you are saying is not true. If that upsets you,
> the remedy is simple. Just provide a few quotes of specific examples you've
> provided of elements in previously published Traveller material that would
> be invalidated by the existence of drop tanks[*] and I'll eat a large helping
> of crow and apologize most humbly to you.

Except I _never_ claimed that drop tanks invalidate existing material in 
the way you are talking about.

> Otherwise have the decency to
> refrain from spouting similar... stuff... in the future. Put up or shut up.

And if you can't even remember what I have posted, or perhaps been able
to
understand it, then you might want refrain from characterizing what I
said.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:20:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Navy ranks

At 09:29 AM 30/04/98 -0700, Glenn wrote:
>> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>> That was the point I was trying to make. I've long been of the opinion that
>> a multi-sector interstellar state needs more ranks than a single country
>> on a balkanized planet and that the historical instances of ranks higher
>> than four-star generals was an argument in my favor. Unfortunately Douglas
>
>I tend to agree, but I use the following ranks:
>00 cadet
>01 ensign
>02 sublieutenant
>03 lieutenant
>04 lieutenant commander
>05 commander
>06 captain
>06a fleet captain (a temporary wartime rank, not considered flag rank,
>but commanding more than one ship)
>07 commodore
Commodore was once basically like your Fleet Captain rank - it was a
temporary rank given to captains in the RN to give them authority over
other captains (normally the more senior automatically had authority, no
matter what). IIRC that made it a flag rank, except that a commodore didn't
have a personal flag, so it wasn't really a real flag rank. In WWII it was
given to those in command of merchant convoys (probably one of the most
thankless tasks on the ocean).

>08 rear admiral
>09 vice admiral
>010 fleet admiral
>011 sector admiral
>012 grand admiral
>013 imperial grand admiral

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:36:11 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

At 03:51 PM 30/04/98 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>
>Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>
>> Howdy all,
>>
>> I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
>> milieu?
>
>[snip]
>
>> >From 3I years 0 to 1100 the TL went from 12 to 15.  The Long Night
>> reduced the TL from 13 or 14 down to 12.  MT showed many major worlds
>> at TL16; did TNE surpass this in any significant amount?
>>
>> If TL16 was held onto, and even TL17 by advanced groups (Darrians),
>> then perhaps after 1000 years the TL could be as high as the low 20's.
>
>Where would FTL communications go?  If anywhere?

Well FF&S1's alternate tech gives 1parsec telporters at TL21, and we know
that the ancients had teleporters, so they're not really alternate
technology. Thus FTL comms are no higher than TL-21.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:15:08 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Weather in Space (forward from sci.astro)

At 09:01 AM 30/04/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>The definitions are somewhat different than old-fashioned Greenwich time
>which is defined by the rotation of the Earth and hence wanders back and 
>(mostly) forward as the Earth's rotation (mostly) slows. UT0 is the 
>time as measured by the rotation of the Earth at greenwhich (similar to 
>GMT but without the averaging that made GMT "mean".) UT1 is 
>time as measured by the rotation of the Earth at your particular location
>(offset back to Greenich's time zone); it varies from UT1 due to the 
>non-roundness of the Earth. UTC is time kept by atomic clocks; it advances
>due to the slowing of the Earth's rotation but only by integer seconds
>("leap seconds"), as opposed to UT0 or GMT, which sort of slid forward
>continuously as the Earth slowed. 
>
>The distinctions may sound trivial, but at a leap second every few years they
>add up for navigational purposes - or astronomical purposes; I have to worry
>about things like whether a calculated time for an eclipse of Io is 
>in UTC or some other non-sliding timescale like TDT. I think the official
>changeover happened when the most accurate timekeeping changed from 
>stellar observations to atomic clocks.

I can see why it would matter. I had just assumed that they had changed the
way they measured GMT to using atomic clocks, etc. 

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:10:12 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

At 09:54 AM 30/04/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

>>How hard is it to swap a module in a modular cutter? Is it built into
>>the cutter or are the modules truly replaceable?  While we're at it, how
>>large is a module?
>
>>From "Broadsword" which was a LBB Adventure (number escapes me);
>
>Modules could be swapped in open space in an hour.  Crew rewquired is
unknown.
>
>Modules are truly swappable; Broadsword carried four modules and two cutter
>"frames".
>
>A module is 30 displacement tons.
>
>Under MT (since I don't have the MT Imp. Encyclopedia here) I can easily
>design a 50ton TL15 boat with 30 tons of "cargo" to represent the module.
>
>Designing modules is interesting; they must have their own internal power
>and (if needed) environmentals, so are basically ships without drives.

According to the FF&S1 rules for modules that are in the _Reformation
Coalition Equipment Guide_ a module needs its own shell and internal
structure, and only needs its own life support, controls and AG units if it
uses more than 30% of the parent vessel's volume. Modules don't need their
own power if the parent vessel has enough surplus to power it, and can in
fact porvide power to the parent vessel if they have a power plant that
gives them a surplus.

>The modules in the adventure included; an ATV Module (carried one wheeled
>ATV), a cargo module, a passenger module, a fuel module, an assault module
>(this was interesting; articulated outer hull would dig up a "quickie"
>foxhole for the troops it carried to deploy into - which I though was
>probably absolutely useless on a TL 11+ battlefield), a fuel module, a
>weapons module (one laser turret?), and a fighter module (four fighters @ 6
>tons each I think).
>
>I though a combination passenger/freight module would be more practical.
>Broadsword needed one fuel module to refuel (although a cargo module with
>collapsable tanks would do as well-the scoops were built into the
>drive/bridge portion of the cutter).
>
>Alltogether an interesting design, and similar to the "Eagle" from
>Space:1999 in concept.  I do not remember if it was explicitly stated
>whether the cutter could operate without the module and what that would do
>to its performance.

The RCEG implies that the module is an integral part of the cutter, so it
would certainly become unstremlined, and I wouldn't want to accelerate to
hard.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:29:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

At 01:26 PM 30/04/98 EDT, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>Howdy all,
>
>I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
>milieu?
>
>The tech level would be high:
>
>	starship-sized matter portals are (recently?) feasible;
>	jump drives are smaller and may use less fuel;
>	small jumpships are common, though expensive;
>	stepping discs have replaced grav vehicles for surface
>		transport on modernized worlds;
>	research into building rosettes is being pursued earnestly or done;
>	world terraforming (for rich systems only) proves a
>		great way to ship out a waterworld's excessive ocean;
>	intrigue and bloodshed are common as systems swallow up
>		the administration of lesser systems (if transport
>		is nearly immediate).
>
>The 4I would look quite a bit different than the 3I -- as different
>as the 3I looked to the RoM as to the 1I.
>
>Perhaps ship-sized matter portals would be constrained in the same
>way the jump drive is constrained: portals range from 1 to N parsecs,
>with one week travel time between points.  Portal range would have a
>ceiling based on the current TL -- would it behave like a jump
>projector with a focusing element?  OTOH, portals may be something
>else entirely, more like the teleportation discs found at Twilight's
>Peak: nearly instantaneous transportation, with the attendant administrative
>implications.
>
>What years would the 4I range over?  3I 2000+?  3I 3000+?
>
>>From 3I years 0 to 1100 the TL went from 12 to 15.  The Long Night
>reduced the TL from 13 or 14 down to 12.  MT showed many major worlds
>at TL16; did TNE surpass this in any significant amount?
>
>If TL16 was held onto, and even TL17 by advanced groups (Darrians),
>then perhaps after 1000 years the TL could be as high as the low 20's.

The TNE-RCES list was disscussing this a couple of months ago. We are still
debating the effect of the Empress Wave on all this, along with a few
comments by Dave Nilsen when he made an appearance on the list. He said
something about 'wandering psionic knights' and the effects of the EW
wearing off after 600 (I think) years. Some of us think that the Long Bow
project's experiments will have been made to work by then, giving psionic
based FTL comms. 

I think the Regency Sourcebook had a cap of TL16 put on by the Regency
government, but a number of planets are pushing that pretty hard, and will
go to TL17 very quickly once the limit is removed. It's quite a lot of fun
designing TL-16 ships with a good supply of good black globes, manipulators
and really efficient meson guns.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:43:09 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Ranks

- -----Original Message-----
From: Makens, Brian <brian.makens@plpt.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc: Makens, Brian <brian.makens@plpt.com>
Date: Tuesday, April 28, 1998 9:04 PM
Subject: RE: Ranks


>> >Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>>
>> >>Also, there _was_ a rank of "General of the Armies" (one rank
>> >>higher than the five-star rank of "General of the Army"); only
>> >>two people have ever held it: George Washington (Honorary, 1799),
>> >>and John J. Pershing (1976).
>>
> Interesting alleged historical oddity. Pershing was jacked up in
>rank, because
> the American Expeditionary Force was under the operational umbrella
> of the French Army and Marshal Foch as Front Commander. Given
> certain French practices, like using field artillery on your own
>troops to "encourage"
> them and decimation punishment, Pershing was given rank
>comparable to
> a Marshal, so he could better "decline" an order from Foch,
> if he thought the order was not in the interest of the U.S.or
>its army.
>
> Added to the fact that Pershing and Foch "DISLIKED" each other from
> first contact, and it was probably a good thing for keeping the Amercan troops
> from becoming expendable cannon fodder for the french.
>
> BJM
>

Just a little clarification on this six star stuff.  Washington wore two
stars by his own appointment.  He bought the rank because he could afford an
Army.  If you add up all the troops fighting in the entire American
Revolutionary War it would add up to a very small corps today.  He received
a third star in 1799 (I believe at his death) as an honorary rank.  Pershing
died as a four star (America's first four star, they had stopped at three
throughout all previous wars) and it was created for him in France in 1917.
He was the "Expeditionary Forces Commander in France and needed to be on
equal footing with Foch (later promoted to Field Marshal). The big hubbub
about six stars came about when GotA Omar Bradley (who died in 1981) brought
it to the attention of the president at a ceremony held for him in 1976
(America's 200th anniversary).  The story goes that Bradley had the utmost
respect for Pershing and had known him quite well.  He felt that Pershing
should be given the highest rank (honorary) ever held by an American.  It
moved thru congress and Washington's name was brought up.  Politicians being
what they are they thought it a grand idea so they promoted Washington and
Pershing to the honorary rank of six stars.  Till this day there isn't a set
of six stars to represent the rank and as far as I know there never was a
design for them.  You can check Army Regulation 670-1 (I believe, I retired
almost 9 years ago after all)  to see what the five stars look like but it
will be devoid of any representation of the six star emblem.  Read the story
in the Stars and Stripes, European edition, when I was stationed in Berlin.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:06:43 -0600
From: "Sam or Corinne" <2drapers@infowest.com>
Subject: re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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>The 4I would look quite a bit different than the 3I -- as different
>as the 3I looked to the RoM as to the 1I.

At the end of the New Era, you have a bunch of pocket empires expanding =
outward and one small chunk of the old imperium still in existence. =
Rather than having humaniti joined together again into one huge empire, =
I think it would be more interesting for the situation to develop along =
the lines of post-Roman Europe. The parallels are pretty striking. There =
are a bunch of vibrant petty states cowering before the last brilliant =
shard of the old order (Byzantium). The states have a shared sense of =
history, but not enough to hold them together. While the self-satisfied =
regency makes little progress, several of the petty states become =
powerful, principally from being in competition with each other and =
neighboring civilizations (Turks/K=92Kree) taking advantage of the =
collapse of the empire. There is some consolidation among the petty =
states, but any unity is ephemeral like the so-called Holy Roman Empire.

The diversity of such a setting would be superior to anything we have =
had so far.

Sam


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http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV>
<P>&gt;The 4I would look quite a bit different than the 3I -- as=20
different<BR>&gt;as the 3I looked to the RoM as to the 1I.</P>
<P>At the end of the New Era, you have a bunch of pocket empires =
expanding=20
outward and one small chunk of the old imperium still in existence. Rather than=20
having humaniti joined together again into one huge empire, I think it would be=20
more interesting for the situation to develop along the lines of post-Roman=20
Europe. The parallels are pretty striking. There are a bunch of vibrant petty=20
states cowering before the last brilliant shard of the old order (Byzantium).

The states have a shared sense of history, but not enough to hold them together.
While the self-satisfied regency makes little progress, several of the petty
states become powerful, principally from being in competition with each other
and neighboring civilizations (Turks/K&rsquo;Kree) taking advantage of the
collapse of the empire. There is some consolidation among the petty states, but
any unity is ephemeral like the so-called Holy Roman Empire.</P>
<P>The diversity of such a setting would be superior to anything we have had so
far.</P>
<P>Sam</P></DIV></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0010_01BD7462.BB770B40--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:26:28 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re-opening old wounds

>Exactly.  By making the position of Sector Admiral an a ssaignment carrying
>nominal command over the fleets of the sector, you allow the Duke to pick
>the correct sophont for the assignment, rather than the idiot with senority.

  That's hardly fair, with Santanocheev unable to defend himself!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:27:05 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!

>Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 14:02:19 -0700
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
>
>Wed, 29 Apr 1998 12:38:06 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
>Hudson)
>>   Is it just my imagination, or aren't pirates going to be
>> incontrovertibly, 100% SOL as far as vessels jumping from a
>> tanker/station point are concerned?
>
>It will depend.  First on who close to your intended point
>you come in.  (if ships are coming a day later or earlier
>than intended, they may be scattered significantly away
>from the intended point).  It also depends on how good
>a job the imperium does of protecting the points.  If
>they try and cut corners and stick a small SDB or armed
>scout ship to protect it, then someone may be some
>ships together to raid it.

  If these are capital intensive (or just plain expensive) stations,
then the operators will see to point defenses. Pirates "raiding"
one of these stations, unless somehow one is financed in the complete
boonies, is fantasy.

  If a ship misjumps substantially within the system, the pirates
are going to be a bit bummed, as the target is by definition in
the middle of nowhere wrt the rest of the system, and they can only
take the cargo, unless they happen to have a fuel tanker with them
(which seems drastically implausible).

>>   Even hijackers (as distinct from pirates) are going to have
>> problems, given the small window to reprogram the jump before
>> the ship is committed to arriving with dry tanks at a police
>> checkpoint.
>
>I would think they would just pretend to be the legit
>operators.  (They have all the ships documents).

  They have to tamper with all the ships documents while in
Jump; the crew and passenger lists will all have to be modified,
and they probably need to snuff the original crew (making for a
tough fight for the ship), as there's absolutely no reason not
to have an on-board customs/security inspection at a refuelling
station with which they will have to dock anyway. Anyone on board
who so much as bats an eyelash wrong and you get to chat with one
of Douglas' boarding parties.

  They'll also have to have a ships crew snuck on board (because
the original crew will have been heaved out the lock) and there
will be no prospect (obviously) of picking one up before arriving
at the refuelling point.

  Given a jump to a security checkpoint, hijackers will have to
have substantial personnel in place with a wide, expert skill set
with casualty redundancy, and the need to either focus on tramp
freighters or become mass murderers. Actually, it sounds like the
major threat will come from PC groups :>

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:38:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Good news?

  Good news! Or at least I think so. From the planned book outline
and draft chapters, the basic Gurps: Traveller book will include
deckplans of the basic ships. This was a luxury that previous Trav
versions weren't able to afford, and nice to see.

  Also, the 70 pages of background material (mostly recycled, but
otherwise effectively unavailable to new, albeit GURPS, players)
look well set up, and being reprints aren't threatening CT/MT canon.
There are no references to the Empress wave in this book.

I guess my only worry is that Leroy is doing the Spinward Marches book :)

  Meanwhile, the GURPS playtesters are blundering about in sinful
ignorance on basic TML fodder topics. Someone had best get over
there and save them from falling into heresy and damnation. :>


  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:38:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
>
>Wed, 29 Apr 1998 16:17:01 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>   We are forced to assume (if d-tanks are functional) that the mega
>> corps didn't institute wide-spread d-tank operations, certainly not
>> on the periphery, anyway. The TNS item about the destroyed liner
>> might have a lot to do with it - the liability implications might
>> have encouraged them to wait years to ensure that risk levels were
>> low
>
>But they _had_ years (decades) before the rebellion.

  IIRC, they were still being tested on small ships immediately before
the FFW, so around 1106-1107. The Rebellion started in 1116? Also, the
Ilelish admin wouldn't have bothered to start the system up. This is
clearly not decades, unless the commercial use of d-tanks started before
1100. Sadly, I don't have FFW anymore, or copies of the TNS to hand.

  Also, waiting a few (3-4?) years after the FFW to research safety
concerns leaves the system no doubt very poorly developed by 1116.

>>   Further, the authorities clearly have security concerns (post-FFW)
>> that affect their willingness to see such a system installed too
>> soon.
>
>Such as?  Drop tanks make shiping follow predictable paths and
>would have been a boon to security.

  If the raiders are unable to overwhelm the security, as is relevant
in the "Pirates Extinct?" question. If the "raider" is a battlefleet
that might traverse half a sector before being brought to battle (while
its own raiders hit sites stripped to concentrate for said battle) then
the system collapses completely across the affected (huge) area.

  If said battlefleet is victorious, then the commerce of the sector
can't even escape as Fleet Intruders skip ahead and cut links. The
war-supporting capacity of the sector is captured at a blow, unless
immediate and successful counter-attack is possible. Both NI and the
fleet command would blow a gasket on general principles.

>>   Once the Rebellion occurs, and the entire Imperium becomes a hunting
>> ground for commerce raiders, then developing such a system would be
>> suicidal.
>
>You just defend the well defined supply routes (which is what you
>would do drop tanks or no.)

  See above for the increased cost of failure. Tanker stations can't
be hardened vs. KKM's (even non-nagic drive ones). "Just defend" becomes
an extremely expensive issue in terms of warfighting ability. You might
recall your own arguments that the Imperium would be _unable_ to defend
its lines of communication in _peacetime_ using large but available
quantities of _small escorts_. While overblown IMO, you must now reverse
that argument to suggest that defending _all points_ of your LOC _at all
times_ in wartime from all directions is now a simple and easy task.

>> Not only would the resources be needed elsewhere
>
>The saving in cost would free up resources, at a minor investemnt
>(remember, they were already invented, they just had to, at worst,
>fix a few bugs.)

  A ship blew up for unknown reasons (and it might have been a
terrorist bomb) and that's a bug? Microsoft is a 3I megacorp?

  The short term size of the investment depends on the efficacy
of refits, which I've already mentioned.

>However, this all gets to be a minor point to me.  I don't think
>this whole approach is a good way to go.  Introducing a new technology

  I agree. I prefer, and will likely use, demountable external tanks
with the added displacement affecting ship performance.

>then immediately hedge it in with restrictions and coincidences to
>make sure it never was widely adopted (and you either need to 
>refuse to advance the timeline, or keep up restrictions, etc.
>to make sure the possible ramifications don't develop in the
>future) is something I have always found to be a mistake.
>It make the background hokey when players start poking holes
>in your web of restrictions you have to pile more on, making
>things worse.

  It remains to Mr. Wiseman to determine this for us. If it is
a historical development in keeping with the designers view of
the Traveller universe (and I'm not sure I'd like that) then it
becomes something to critique, not to argue over.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:13:36 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

The story was Hawk Among Sparrows by Dean McLaughkin, published in Analog,
July 1968. The issu featured an excellent F. Kelly Freas cover depicting a
SR-71 Blackbird style jet sitting among several bi-planes in front of hanger
buildings.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 4:16 PM
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?


>He does find, though, that jetwash blows the relatively flimsy planes
>into bits of wood and canvas.  :)
>
>> A classic time travel story.
>
>I wish I remembered the title and author, too... a very good story.
>
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Bolie Williams IV
>bolie@io.com
>http://www.io.com/~bolie/
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:47:02 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 3:12 PM
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader


>
>On Wed, 29 Apr 1998, Michael D. Peters wrote:
>
>> And this is still something I have a problem with! If an open air raft can
>> reach orbit (and land I assume) on CG, why does a ship have to be
>> streamlined at all?! I can understand streamlineing for performance
reasons,
>> but not as arequirement to drift into the atmoshere of any planet and
drift
>> about on CG while the compressors work.
>>
>
>Arrrrggghhhhhh NO! NOT THE UNSTREAMLINED SHIPS IN AN ATMOSPHERE ARGUMENT!!
>NOT AGAIN!!!! :-)
>


Actually the late hour bit me Bruce, and I apologize. I wasn't actually
thinking of open frame designs (aka ST:Enterprise) when I wrote that. I was
thinking more along the lines of an AHL class ship SLOWLY cruising the outer
atmosphere of a GG as opposed to a March Harrier. (Bad examples maybe but I
hope you get the idea).

I think I'm thinking more along the lines of areodynamic vs the "flying
brick" or better, the SR-71 of another thread vs the ST:Voyager. The Voyager
is not my concept of "hypersonic" streamlining, however I don't see why it
couldn't negotiate an atmosphere, at a slow enough speed. With CG, lift is
no longer needed so it would handle more like the Heindenburg, not the best
ride in bad weather, but capable none-the-less.

I guess the problem is I don't picture fuel skimming as a missle run through
atmosphere or water. I see it as more of a hover while pumps and compressors
do the work, with ship movement providing the feed to the compressor/pump
inlet scoops. I've always believed that the actual skimming operation runs
parallel (time wise) with the purification. Ships scoops raw atmosphere
through compressors, atmosphere is processed through the purification plant
and is seperated by catalytic reaction, hydrogen is stored, "waste" elements
are dumped. Once the tanks are full the ship leaves the GG. Water fueling is
basically the same with oxygen being the "waste" material, except whats
pulled off for life support. Other liquid oceans would be much the same,
with other "wastes".

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #454
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest         Friday, May 1 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 455



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Good news?
Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
Re: Good news?
[Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Imperial Alphabet [?]
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Good news?
Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]
Re: Re-opening old wounds
Re: Good news?
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining
Re: Good news?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:53:03 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Good news?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, April 30, 1998 8:48 PM
Subject: Good news?


>  Good news! Or at least I think so. From the planned book outline
>and draft chapters, the basic Gurps: Traveller book will include
>deckplans of the basic ships. This was a luxury that previous Trav
>versions weren't able to afford, and nice to see.
>
Unfortunately, if the deck plans follow the typical quality assosiated with
the (several) examples of GURPS deck plans I have available, I'm not sure
how much use they will be. For a game system that is VERY well suited for
miniature play they seem very reluctant to place hex grids and scale to
their published maps.

Oh, well, we can hope.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:35:26 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:27:05 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >>   Is it just my imagination, or aren't pirates going to be
> >> incontrovertibly, 100% SOL as far as vessels jumping from a
> >> tanker/station point are concerned?

> >It will depend.  First on who close to your intended point
> >you come in.  (if ships are coming a day later or earlier
> >than intended, they may be scattered significantly away
> >from the intended point).  It also depends on how good
> >a job the imperium does of protecting the points.  If
> >they try and cut corners and stick a small SDB or armed
> >scout ship to protect it, then someone may be some
> >ships together to raid it.

>   If these are capital intensive (or just plain expensive) stations,
> then the operators will see to point defenses. Pirates "raiding"
> one of these stations, unless somehow one is financed in the complete
> boonies, is fantasy.

I don't know about that.  The expense is unclear (and depends on
how far you take the development of the technology).  The defenses
will match the percieved need (and the iron is that as piracy
becomes rarer, the percieved need will drop) and will be subject
to the usual shortsightedness and profiteering that humankind is
prone to.  I doubt it will be common (there will be clear need
and it will be dealt with), but _never_ happen?  I'm not so sure.

>   If a ship misjumps substantially within the system, the pirates
> are going to be a bit bummed, as the target is by definition in
> the middle of nowhere wrt the rest of the system, and they can only
> take the cargo, unless they happen to have a fuel tanker with them
> (which seems drastically implausible).

I'm not talking about a misjump.  I'm talking about the accuracy
to which you can place your exit point.  That could throw them
off so that they are only some distance away.

> >I would think they would just pretend to be the legit
> >operators.  (They have all the ships documents).
> 
>   They have to tamper with all the ships documents while in
> Jump; the crew and passenger lists will all have to be modified,

Depends on whether the Imperium bothers to list the crew and
passengers for every single jump and how much trouble they
go to do that.  You list could just be one that the captain
made up for his own reference.

> and they probably need to snuff the original crew (making for a
> tough fight for the ship)

Or hide them away someplace, but that is always a problem in
highjacking.

>, as there's absolutely no reason not
> to have an on-board customs/security inspection at a refuelling
> station with which they will have to dock anyway.

Sure there is.  Cost.  Not everything that one can think of a reason
for will happen.  Now I'm not saying it won't happen, but it will be
based on the perceive need vs the cost.  As above, as the event gets
rarer, the percieved need decreases.  That makes it hard to completely
eliminate anything.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 18:40:40 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Good news?

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:38:34 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> There are no references to the Empress wave in this book.

There is a reference to project Longbow.

>   Meanwhile, the GURPS playtesters are blundering about in sinful
> ignorance on basic TML fodder topics. Someone had best get over
> there and save them from falling into heresy and damnation. :>

Have they set up a discussion area for the playtest comments?
I didn't see it before....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:56:29 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- --------------55C91693A17
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Just an FYI for you collectors. Found the following on the
newsgrou: rec.games.frp.marketplace

This is some rare stuff...

- --------------55C91693A17
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Path: news.imagin.net!uunet!in3.uu.net!news1.interlink.net!sunqbc.risq.qc.ca!feeder.qis.net!island.idirect.com!newsfeed.interlog.com!news.interlog.com!not-for-mail
From: "James David Maliszewski" <maliszew@tiredofjunkemail.com>
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Subject: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products
Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 18:35:58 -0400
Organization: Third Millennium Games
Message-ID: <6i89ts$18o$1@news.interlog.com>
Reply-To: "James David Maliszewski" <maliszew@interlog.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: 209-20-1-81.dialin.interlog.com
NNTP-Posting-Time: 29 Apr 1998 22:34:36 GMT
X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.2106.4
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.2106.4
Xref: news.imagin.net rec.games.frp.marketplace:443

I have one (1) copy of each of the following MegaTraveller products from
Digest Group Publications. All are in excellent condition, showing nothing
more than very minor wear all the spine from having been opened and read.

All prices are in US dollars. Purchaser pays the cost of shipping as well.
This is first come, first served based on the time I receive the e-mail.

World Builders Guide $30
Starship Operators Manual $25
The Early Adventures $10
The MegaTraveller Journal #3 $10
The Flaming Eye Campaign Sourcebook $20
101 Vehicles: An Illustrated Catalog $25




- --------------55C91693A17--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 19:02:11 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

Thu, 30 Apr 1998 16:38:50 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
[Moving up the text where it turns out we mostly agree to the top...]
 
>   The short term size of the investment depends on the efficacy
> of refits, which I've already mentioned.

> >However, this all gets to be a minor point to me.  I don't think
> >this whole approach is a good way to go.  Introducing a new technology
> 
>   I agree. I prefer, and will likely use, demountable external tanks
> with the added displacement affecting ship performance.

I have absolutely no problem with "demountable" tanks.  However,
I would think the need to have jump projectors to extend the
field would make them pricy....

> >But they _had_ years (decades) before the rebellion.

>   IIRC, they were still being tested on small ships

FWIW, They were starting commercial service....

> immediately before
> the FFW, so around 1106-1107. The Rebellion started in 1116? Also, the
> Ilelish admin wouldn't have bothered to start the system up.

Why?

>  This is
> clearly not decades

10 years is a decade.  Like I said, years to decades...

>, unless the commercial use of d-tanks started before
> 1100. Sadly, I don't have FFW anymore, or copies of the TNS to hand.

It did.

>   Also, waiting a few (3-4?) years after the FFW to research safety
> concerns leaves the system no doubt very poorly developed by 1116.

I don't agree.  See above.

> >Such as?  Drop tanks make shiping follow predictable paths and
> >would have been a boon to security.

>   If the raiders are unable to overwhelm the security, as is relevant
> in the "Pirates Extinct?" question.

Well, in fact I agree that is would make piracy harder.  In 
fact, if you read what I say, I claim it "might" not make
piracy extince (in certain circumstances).  

> If the "raider" is a battlefleet
> that might traverse half a sector before being brought to battle (while
> its own raiders hit sites stripped to concentrate for said battle) then
> the system collapses completely across the affected (huge) area.

Hardly, this fleet can catch trader regardless of the method.
The main difference is they know ahead of time where the
good pickings is, but you know ahead of time where they
have to attack.  It is a double edged sword.

>   If said battlefleet is victorious, then the commerce of the sector
> can't even escape as Fleet Intruders skip ahead and cut links.

So you have a system of stations that you can jump in to replace
them.  (In fact, you can also have them set up to jump out
if there is trouble).

> >You just defend the well defined supply routes (which is what you
> >would do drop tanks or no.)
 
>   See above for the increased cost of failure. Tanker stations can't
> be hardened vs. KKM's (even non-nagic drive ones).

Right, so what you do is use the fact that you know where they
commerce raider need to attack to have the fleet that you
have designated to defeat them waiting...

> >The saving in cost would free up resources, at a minor investemnt
> >(remember, they were already invented, they just had to, at worst,
> >fix a few bugs.)

>   A ship blew up for unknown reasons (and it might have been a
> terrorist bomb) and that's a bug? Microsoft is a 3I megacorp?

It was pretty clear to me that is was a bomb or something.
However, you could, I suppose, make it some bug that delayed
the technology to just before the rebellion, and then not
allowed it to develop in the rebelion.  But that gets back
to my remarks about careful contrivance.  But the, if it
is never developed, how do the PC's have it?  If it is,
then why isn't it being used the way it clear can be?

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:04:25 -0400
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]

By looking at the price this guy is charging, I almost feel like selling
mine also.  I was rich and I never knew it. ;-)

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: warlock@imagin.net
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]
> Date: 30 avr. 1998 23:56
> 
> Just an FYI for you collectors. Found the following on the
> newsgrou: rec.games.frp.marketplace
> 
> This is some rare stuff...
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 22:14:55 -0400
From: DStar2 <dstar2@infinet.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, StarShade wrote:
>
> > I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance
>
> > would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane using
> > tech level 15 materials?
> >
> > Besides the better engines - what would the "material" do for the
> > operation of the plane? would it be a better than the TL6 - I guess it
> > must be - but at what factors? could it ingage a TL15 designed fighter
> > and defeat it or have a chance at defeating it?
> >
> > I hope I express this situation okay?
> >
>
> You would get a biplane that Baron Von Richthoven would give one or _two_
> gonads to possess, one that _might_ stand it's own against WWII
> fighters, if it could jump on them low and slow, but would be vapor if
> it
> ran up against your average TL-15 hypersonic stealthed laser and
> missle
> armed fighter.
>
> You're talking, roughly, about a high tech design in much the same way a
> Stimson biplane is today, a TL-8 rendition of a TL-5 craft, with higher
> performance and durablility, but not radically altered flight
> characteristics...an open cockpit biplane ain't gonna do supersonic, or
> even much above a couple of hundred miles/hour.

Okay, but I guess I was trying to say can it be done so as the locals
dont know you are using higher tech vehicles - I have some players
trying to sneak some advance vehicles onto a low tech world so as to
have an advantage... But how do I reflect this?Will the damage ratio of
the new TL15 "equivalent" of the TL6 vehicle withstand more damage as it
is made with stronger material?

But I guess what the players are asking is it able to pass for the TL6
vehicle at a glance over or even at a up touch and feel kind of thing -
but I know if somebody scrapped the paint off or tried to scratch it or
something it would be shown to be unusual to say the least...???

> OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
> aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
> whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
> vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
> transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the allies
> that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.
>
> Only there isn't enough metal in the planes of the day for his radar
> guided missles to lock on, and they don't have that lovely 1000 degree jet
> exhaust for his heat seekers to find.

Ill have to remember this if I ever have the reverse situation happen...
:)

> A classic time travel story.
>
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
> Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 20:37:59 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Imperial Alphabet [?]

Teddy Lindsey wrote:

>Do you happen to have anything showing the Imperial alphabet. I know I've
>seen it once in an old magazine.
>
>- Ted

Does anyone here know what he's talking about ?

Please address replies to:
schoon@aimnet.com

Thanx,
Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:56:28 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

T Green wrote:

> Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>
> > Howdy all,
> >
> > I was wondering if anyone has ever thought of doing the 4th Imperium
> > milieu?Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> then
> Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>
> > Where would FTL communications go?  If anywhere?
>
> One of the core elements of Traveller is the use of feudalism, honor,
> _noblesse_oblige_, and whatnot to manage an empire across a multi-year
> communications lag.
>
> Remember: the X-Boat network, for example, was set up at J-4 so that
> local authorities could get early word (via Imperalines J-6 couriers
> that look like the normal Imperialines liners, remember?) of major
> events, and to be prepared.
>
> If you're talking about a "galactic village", don't call it Traveller.
>
> <<tg>>

Well, it wasn't my idea at all.  I focus on milieu 0, so even laser
pistols are a novelty.  But if you're going to have matter-transmission
portals, of _any_ size, don't you get FTL communication point to point?

Regardless, to say that a Traveller universe has a Tech Level cap is a bit
ridiculous.  Sure, radical changes would result in a drastic effect on the
universe, but prefer to think of Traveller as more than just certain TLs,
etc.  Traveller has game systems, etc., that make it unique.  IMHO,
Traveller has a character to it regardless of the tech level and feudal
governments.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:58:27 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> We are still debating the effect of the Empress Wave on all this, along with a
> few
> comments by Dave Nilsen when he made an appearance on the list. He said
> something about 'wandering psionic knights' and the effects of the EW
> wearing off after 600 (I think) years. Some of us think that the Long Bow
> project's experiments will have been made to work by then, giving psionic
> based FTL comms.

So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this but it
only confused the matter more for me.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 00:03:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Good news?

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Meanwhile, the GURPS playtesters are blundering about in sinful
> ignorance on basic TML fodder topics. Someone had best get over
> there and save them from falling into heresy and damnation. :>

Perhaps we should establish a Church of Traveller Canon to properly
indoctrinate these innocents before the devil fills their minds with evil.
;-)

Really, though, I have some space available to host such stuff.  But I'm
junior on the TML and am probably in need of indoctrination/re-education
myself.

What would the list of topics be?  I can only think of a few:
Jump Torpedoes,
No pre-TL 21 FTL communications,
Near C Rocks, or something like that.

Additions welcome.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:26:53 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]

At 08:37 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Teddy Lindsey wrote:
>
>>Do you happen to have anything showing the Imperial alphabet. I know I've
>>seen it once in an old magazine.
>>
>>- Ted
>
>Does anyone here know what he's talking about ?

The Bilandin font.  I still have version 1.0, been waiting to see if there
is a more up to date version before slapping on the webpage.  It's the
writing seen in many old DGP products, most notably Strship Operators
Manual.  The panels on the ship's interior sketches actually said things;
the one I recall off the top of my head is the comaprtment under the
gunner's chair contained an emergency vacc suit.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 21:29:31 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Re-opening old wounds

At 04:26 PM 4/30/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>Exactly.  By making the position of Sector Admiral an a ssaignment carrying
>>nominal command over the fleets of the sector, you allow the Duke to pick
>>the correct sophont for the assignment, rather than the idiot with senority.
>
>  That's hardly fair, with Santanocheev unable to defend himself!

I let history speak for itself.  Ol'Duchess what'shername of Mora did the
Marches a grave diservice by picking that bumbler to be the SA.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 00:58:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Good news?

On 04/30/98 at 04:38 PM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:

>  Meanwhile, the GURPS playtesters are blundering about in sinful
>ignorance on basic TML fodder topics. Someone had best get over there and
>save them from falling into heresy and damnation. :>

Did someone say heresy? ;-P

From what I've read so far, GT's material looks good. There are even a
couple of familar names from TML among the posters on the playtest
discussion group.

Eris,
    a proud Pyramid subscriber ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 01:07:22 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining

On 04/30/98 at 08:47 PM,  "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
said:

>I think I'm thinking more along the lines of areodynamic vs the "flying
>brick" or better, the SR-71 of another thread vs the ST:Voyager. The
>Voyager is not my concept of "hypersonic" streamlining, however I don't
>see why it couldn't negotiate an atmosphere, at a slow enough speed. With
>CG, lift is no longer needed so it would handle more like the Heindenburg,
>not the best ride in bad weather, but capable none-the-less.

>I guess the problem is I don't picture fuel skimming as a missle run
>through atmosphere or water. 

Why do you say that's a problem, Mike?  I agree with your vision, fully!
Sure, you can design hypersonic ships to do the fast skim, but ships with
adaquate CG should be able to skim just the way you describe.

>I see it as more of a hover while pumps and compressors do the work, with ship >movement providing the feed to the compressor/pump inlet scoops. I've always >believed that the actual skimming operation runs parallel (time wise) with the >purification. Ships scoops raw atmosphere through compressors, atmosphere is >processed through the purification plant and is seperated by catalytic reaction, >hydrogen is stored, "waste" elements are dumped. Once the tanks are full the >ship leaves the GG. Water fueling is basically the same with oxygen being the
>"waste" material, except whats pulled off for life support. Other liquid
>oceans would be much the same, with other "wastes".

That's how I see it too.  The "fast pass" technique would skim a load,
process it on the outer loop, dump waste on the orbit back in, and skim
another load at close approach.  The "slow hover" technique would hover, or
move slowly, through the upper atmosphere skimming and processing at the
same time.  

As always, this is all IMTU...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 01:09:23 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Good news?

On 04/30/98 at 06:40 PM,  "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> said:

>>   Meanwhile, the GURPS playtesters are blundering about in sinful
>> ignorance on basic TML fodder topics. Someone had best get over
>> there and save them from falling into heresy and damnation. :>

>Have they set up a discussion area for the playtest comments? I didn't see
>it before....

I hadn't before tonight either. The discussion area is there now.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Apr 1998 23:34:37 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

> There's also the fairly decent movie, the Final Countdown (?), starring
> Martin Sheen, in which a modern aircraft carrier ends up in the pacific
> just before Pearl Harbor. There's a scene where two F14 Tomcats dogfight a
> couple of Zeros.  The Tomcat pilots just screw around, until the Zeros take
> a shot at them. 
> 


Awesome movie, for the most part, but I was disappointed they didn't
have it out at Pearl Harbor.  When the Vortex opened again, they of
course, regardless of random chance, went right back to where they
belonged.

Woulda been nicer in a SEQUEL to see how F14 Tomcats stood up against a
crazed flight ot pterodactyls.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 01:27:52 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

On 04/30/98 at 11:58 PM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>> We are still debating the effect of the Empress Wave on all this, along with a
>> few comments by Dave Nilsen when he made an appearance on the list. He said
>> something about 'wandering psionic knights' and the effects of the EW
>> wearing off after 600 (I think) years. Some of us think that the Long Bow
>> project's experiments will have been made to work by then, giving psionic
>> based FTL comms.

>So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this
>but it only confused the matter more for me.

Ok, here's what I *think* I know about it...

On the cover of the TNE rulebook there is a woman holding some sort of
staff, or maybe a weapon, she's the "Empress" of Empress Wave fame.  Who is
she?  Where does she come from? What does she want?  There are NO
definitive answers to any of those questions.

As I understand it, she is an image that some psionics receive when
"looking" toward the galactic core..maybe comes to them in dreams. Is she
real or metaphor? We don't know.

The vision appears to be linked with a light speed event that is passing
through and disrupting Zhodani space. Just how is Zhodani space being
disrupted? We don't know.

Over on the RCES-TNE list, Dave Nilson dropped hints about "psionic
awakening" and those "wandering psionic knights", but he hasn't done more
than hint. Does even *he* know where he was going with TNE, probably...but
*we* don't know.

Personally, I set my PBEM several thousand years beyond all the events of
the rebellion/virus/wave (IMTU any, all or none of that might have
happened), where humanity is just beginning to explore the stars again.  A
really *long* night!  Anything that relates to *anything* in printed
sources is the stuff of legend...or maybe just a bunch of "old wives
tales."

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 04:40:14 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

Thanks for the Info, Eris.

Your PBEM sounds pretty interesting.

Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #455
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest         Friday, May 1 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 456



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Changing the Background and Jump Drives
Re: [TTL] Stere
Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules
Re: Spin habs in combat
Re: Berthing Costs
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Weather in Space
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:33:45 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Changing the Background and Jump Drives

Dave Summers:
>>>I find this hard to believe.  I have a very early version they don't
>>>appear in.

Hans Ranke-Madsen:
>> And I have one where they do appear. So have at least one other on the
list
>> (I didn't realize this myself until I saw someone claim it and went and
>> checked my own copy).

Steve Bonneville:
>It's in the early, early version of Book 2, in the section on consumables
>and custom missiles.  As I recall, it states that the referee may make
>available alternative missile designs besides homing nukes, such as mines,
>controlled missiles, and jump torpedoes.  No rules or guidelines for the
>actual devices are included, those being the days when as Dave Arneson
>once said, "there were no rules, only a referee with a whip and a chair".



If anyone's interested the (c) 1977 Book 2 I have printed in the UK under
licence from GDW by Games Workshop includes this too. (p.18)

I was quite surprised by this as I confess to having long thought they been
introduced in Leviathan.



>Not all versions of CT are created equal.  The black books I have give
>the scale for miniature-based space combat at 1" == 1000 miles!  Later
>editions of Book 2, thankfully, went metric, but too late for the world
>UWP system in Book 3....


That's there too (p.22) but I guess the usage of miles was less surprising!



BTW, for anyone that's been following things, pardon my mail burp
yesterday.  You'd probably long since forgotten those threads.

Ah well, back to my unreal life.

tc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 02:31:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

In mail you write:

> Actually, the gram is defined as 1/1000th of a kilogram.  There are
> "official" kilogram platinum bars held in trust in various Standards
> and Measures Offices around the world.

No. *The* Official Kilogram is a bar of platinum iridium alloy in a
vault in a Paris suburb. The ones elsewhere were made by measuring them
against that primary standard (which is done as infrequently as
possible to avoid wear on the standard!) 

That makes these "primary national standards" "traceable" to the
standard. Then each national bureau of standards (or whatever they are
called in a specific country) creates standard weights referenced to
their primary standard. 

In high accuracy work, one of the important details is how many
"generations" removed your standards are from *the* standard.

There's a story about how one of the big government research labs
ordered a set of weights traceable to the US National Bureau of
Standards weights. Such weight sets (and other, equivalent tupes of
standards) are *expensive*.

They arrived, sealed in a canister filled with nitrogen gas. And a
shipping clerk, following an accounting department directive, opened
the canister, drilled holes in the weights, and attached property ID#
tags to them. Totally *ruining* the weights....

It might be an interesting item for characters to carry as cargo. A set
of Imperial standards of some sort. They have to be treated carefully,
and are worth a lot amount. Of course, they aren't worth *stealing*. In
fact, if stolen, their value drops to zilch, because you lose the
traceability. 

But some pirate's informant in port will only know that there's this
cargo container insured up the wazoo, and being treated like it was
made of spun glass. 

The poor players will have one *hell of a time with *that* contract.
Especially since I *really* can't see most players thinking they'd have
any problem due to *that* piece of cargo. :-) 

> It makes one wonder why they didn't just define the meter as being the
> distance light travels in a number of cesium cycles (the base unit used
> to define seconds).

It *is*, just indirectly. Since the *second* is defined that way, and
the speed of light is a defined constant, the length of the meter
follows by simple mathematics. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 02:48:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A New Free Trader and house skimming rules

In mail you write:

> Brian Mays posted:
>>
>>>A gas gaint has a gravity well that extends *way* out. And I don't buy
>>>"floating" at the lower altitudes where the atmosphere is as denses as
>>>"normal" atmosphere, much less deeper. The weather would be worse than
>>>any hurricane on earth.
>>
>>Now that we know that Jupiter (and supposedly other gas giants) have
>>enormous, amazingly powerful magnetic fields, how do we justify a ship
>>being able to get close enough to refuel without suffering massive
> damage?
>>
>>Just wonderin', that's all . . .
>
> Hmm..I always thought skimming was performed by diving at the
> magnetic poles. Is this a viable tactic? If so, it would make it
> easy to find/target any skimming star/spaceships.

That's the *worst* possible place to do it. You'll be cutting across
the maximum number of "field lines" (thus inducing the mzximum current
in any conductors in your ship). 

Your best bet for minimizing magnetic effects is to skim at the
*equator*, but along a north/south path. 

This is also good since determining *where* the magnetic poles are
isn't the easiest thing to do until after you are already well into the
planet's magnetic field.

But the magnetic fields aren't *that* much of a problem. The problem is
the charged particles trapped in them. Jupiter's "Van Allen" belts are
*huge*. And the major moons are right in the middle of them.

As I recall, you'd get a lethal radiation dose in *minutes* on the
surface of, say, Io. 

But they aren't a lot worse than a *major* solar flare. So if your ship
is shielded well enough that you don't have to retreat into a shielded
"storm cellar" in the center of the ship, you'll be ok (the storm
cellar is fine for riding out a flare for a few hours to a couple of
days, but you can't run a skimming operation from it).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 02:55:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Spin habs in combat

In mail you write:

> Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com> wrote:
>
>>The only down side of this is that both sections will end up rotating.
>>In space, there is no "stationary" and you Newton rules... if you have
>>a spinning section you need to slow down or speed up while keeping
>>another section non-rotating, you'll need either some kind of thruster
>>or a flywheel to store that rotational momentum in.
>
> I don't believe you are correct (but I may be wrong)... you directly remove
> the kinetic energy and convert it to electrical energy. The spin section
> slows down as a result. Transfer losses are in heat in the system
> converting (the generator). You are effectively removing the 'v' from the
> mv of the momentum.

But it's *angular* momentum you are dealing with. Anything that slows
down the rotating section speeds up the formerly non rotating section.
You'll reach zero *relative* rotation between the sections, but the
ship as a whole will now be rotating.

> We used to stop flywheels from 50k rpm at work by driving them like this.
> They had pretty insignificant friction and operated in a vacuum. I suppose
> there was a low <2 Nm torque acting in this case, but you could balance
> this out with judicious use of thrusters. Looking back, I suppose that
> means I agree with you ;-)

The "non rotating" frame of the flywheel was anchored to the earth.
Every time you sped up or slowed down the flywheels, you changed the
earth's rotation slightly.

People living at the bottom of a gravity well have a distorted notion
of physics.

(I'd *love* to get to play around in a physics classroom in a zero g
section of a station, or on the ground using g-comp :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:02:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing Costs

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> A human just *sitting* there is a 100 watt heat source. One who is
>> doing something active could run a kilowatt. Maybe more. The more
>> people running around, the more the life support gear has to mess with
>> airflows to keep the air temps comfortable. Ever been in a long meeting
>> in a small, crowded room? The place quickly becomes unbearably hot.
>
> I've been in some Role-playing sessions with up to ten persons in one
> room. Sounds familiar, does it? A little problem there: the owner of the
> room is the master and afraid of insects coming into it, so the windows
> are shut. But that's none against a overcrowded bus/tram in winter ...

Try one of our local "light rail" cars during rush hour in the
*summer*. The windows don't open except for this tiny bit at the top
(safety reasons, which I do understand). And there's *no* air
conditioning (at least in the older model cars). 

So you've got temps as high as 100 in the shade, people packed to
standing room only, an essentially closed box, and the sun beating down
while you wait for it to make it's way from city center to the areas
where the tracks don't run down streets (and thus where it can put on
some speed).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:13:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance 
> would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane using 
> tech level 15 materials? 
>
> Besides the better engines - what would the "material" do for the 
> operation of the plane? would it be a better than the TL6 - I guess it 
> must be - but at what factors? could it ingage a TL15 designed fighter 
> and defeat it or have a chance at defeating it?

A biplane is designed for a certain airspeed range. It makes no sense
at higher speed ranges. So an improved engine will only make the plane
lighter, which will help the manueverability. Advanced materials for
the structure will make it stronger and lighter. Ditto for the wing
covering materials. 

But the *design* is restricted to the under 200 mph range. But it'd be
nice to fly, tougher than hell, and make a wonderful stunt plane.

The TL-15 fighter is a problem because you don't say what *kind* of
fighter. If it's a ground support job, like the A-10 Warthog, then it's
designed to be able to go after low speed, manueverable targets. And
it'll eat the biplane for lunch. 

If it's a "aerospace superiority" fighter, designed to teach fighters
from an invading fleet to stay the hell away from the planet, then it
won't be able to do much to the biplane except by accident or luck. The
biplane flies at mach .25 and has a turning radius of *feet*. The AS
fighter flies at Mach 25 and has a turning radius of *miles*. 

And if it's some other sort of fighter, the effectiveness against the
biplane depends on the mission requirements the fighter was designed for.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:31:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weather in Space

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>  
>> Flares correlate to *some* extent with sunspots. But the sunspot cycles
>> take decades of observation to figure out because they are that long.
>> Sol's main cycle is 22 years, though the two halves of the cycle are
>> similar enough that you can refer to an 11 year cycle.
>> 
>> The idea is that when you first arrive, you don't know if this is the
>> "light" part of the cycle or the "heavy" part. Imagine the "fun" if you
>> assume that the high number of flares means that you are in the "heavy"
>> part of the cycle, and then as the years go by, you discovere that it
>> was the *light* part, and you are getting flares far stronger and far
>> more often than you designed space facilities to handle. Oops.
>> 
>
> I rather suspect by the time we've had 3000 years to do astronomy with a
> sample size in the thousands, we'll be a _bit_ better at figuring these
> things out that we are with less than a hundred years of decent
> observations and an N of one.
>
> we might even know what _does_ accurately predict flares...other than a
> bunch of Darrians huddled around that big, weird looking machine over
> there...

True enough. But I bet that while "climate"" is "easy" to predict,
"weather" will be hard. Chaotic effects are quite likely to be at least
as important as in terrestrial weather. Which means there's a hard
limit on predictability of details. 

So I expect that they may be able to predict "expect light to medium
sunspot activity with 25% chance of large flares" for the upcoming week
or two, they'll still have much shorter warning periods for actual
flares. 

Also, the flare predictions would have to be good for *at least* two
weeks to do the players any good when jumping in. After all, the news
has to get to their *departure* point so they'd know what to expect
when jumping in. 

I expect that being ready for flares is part of normal procedure on
exiting jump, unless the ships are protected well enough to not care.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:22:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, StarShade wrote:
>>
>> > I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance
>>
>> > would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane
>> using
>> > tech level 15 materials?
>> >
>> > Besides the better engines - what would the "material" do for the
>> > operation of the plane? would it be a better than the TL6 - I guess it
>> > must be - but at what factors? could it ingage a TL15 designed
>> fighter
>> > and defeat it or have a chance at defeating it?
>> >
>> > I hope I express this situation okay?
>> >
>>
>> You would get a biplane that Baron Von Richthoven would give one or
>> _two_
>> gonads to possess, one that _might_ stand it's own against WWII
>> fighters, if it could jump on them low and slow, but would be vapor if
>> it
>> ran up against your average TL-15 hypersonic stealthed laser and
>> missle
>> armed fighter.
>>
>> You're talking, roughly, about a high tech design in much the same way a
>> Stimson biplane is today, a TL-8 rendition of a TL-5 craft, with higher
>> performance and durablility, but not radically altered flight
>> characteristics...an open cockpit biplane ain't gonna do supersonic, or
>> even much above a couple of hundred miles/hour.
>
> Okay, but I guess I was trying to say can it be done so as the locals
> dont know you are using higher tech vehicles - I have some players
> trying to sneak some advance vehicles onto a low tech world so as to
> have an advantage... But how do I reflect this?Will the damage ratio of
> the new TL15 "equivalent" of the TL6 vehicle withstand more damage as it
> is made with stronger material?
>
> But I guess what the players are asking is it able to pass for the TL6
> vehicle at a glance over or even at a up touch and feel kind of thing -
> but I know if somebody scrapped the paint off or tried to scratch it or
> something it would be shown to be unusual to say the least...???

Ok. The natives will *suspect* there's something odd if you let them get
close. Things like struts will look *far* too flimsy at first. And then
after they see you doing things that *should* rip the plane into shreds
from stress, they'll *know* something is fishy.

And yes, it ought to be able to absorb incredible amounts of damage
from the real TL5/6 planes. Heck, by TL-15, the "skin" on the wings and
body is probably tough enough to be impentetrable by .50 cal machine
guns, or anything short of a small to medium shell making a direct hit.
The open canopy will leave the pilot vulnerable though. 

And you'll be able to do things like make 3-4 g manuevers, which would
cause a regular plane of the era to collapse. You can't do much more
because of your low speed, and the lack of oxygen gear and g-suits.

If that supersonic fighter makes a close pass *while* supersonic,
you'll still get turned into guacamole, even if the plane survives
(unlikely). 

Close up the shock wave from a supersonic planes is as bad as a *large*
explosion. Quite similar overpressure effects occur.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 04:11:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

>> Even minor crosswinds can wreak havoc on even perfectly drifting objects
>> (theoretically at rest with respect to the local wind) look what happens
>> to hot air baloons when they get into sticky weather.
>> 
>> That's why unstreamlined starships can't enter atmospheres.
>
> I agree with the points about entering a gas giant storm or even a
> storm on an Earth-like planet.  This last sentence, I don't necessarily
> agree with.
>
> Unstreamlined ships will certainly have problems with high-speed
> maneuvering (mostly if they are asymetrical) but wouldn't have any
> problems with low speed maneuvers.  CG equipped ships should have the
> easist time floating around.  They might have problems with nasty
> weather, but are generally going to be quite a bit tougher than hot
> air balloons and have significantly more maneuvering capability than
> most hot air balloons.  The above is mainly going to apply to ships
> with significant amounts of thrust (well over 1 G or local gravity
> and/or CG).

The problem isn't power. It's unbalanced stresses. The wind loading on
the ship will vary in ways that thrust loads  and manuevering loads
*don't*. 

> Going to or from orbit in such a ship will take quite a while as the
> ship will be limited in speed, but should be quite possible.
> Again, avoid hurricants and thunderstorms and the like but turbulence
> won't affect such a ship any more than any other (aerodynamic ships
> are affected by turbulence and hurricanes, look at what happens to
> airplanes that fly into hurricanes or bad turbulence).  In fact, a
> slow moving ship may have an easier time of it simply because it's
> slow moving.

But the thing is that it's not aerodynamically stable. That means that
in a wind, it's preferred orientation could be *anything*. And combined
with a thrust pushing it in some other direction the result is *not* a
drift. It's a *violent* tumble. 

Also, check out what the forces exerted by wind are. Even a "measly" 30
mph exerts *tremendous* pressures over large areas. Here's the formulas:

P = 0.5 D V^2 cos^2 A,

P = Pressure, N/m^2 (multiply by 0.000146 for psi)

D = Density, kg/m^3 (=1.225 for sea-level air on Earth)

V = Velocity, m/s (multiply by 2.24 for miles per hour)

A = Angle from perpendicular

So at 20 km/h, lets see what we get.

20 km/h = 5.6 m/s. 

That gives 18.9 N/m^2 for the wind blowing perpendicular to the
surface. Figure the cross sectional area of the various parts of the
ship (don't forget to figure them from different directions) and start
figure what winds from various directions will do. 

And remember that by the very fact that you are trying to keep your
airspeed low, you *can't* avoid bad weather which is approaching faster
than you can run away. 

You may not be *able* to avoid turbulence or bad weather. After all,
since your ship isn't *designed* to operate in atmosphere, it won't be
equipped with the sensors need to spot things like clear air
turbulence. Which can hit you with 50-100 mph winds.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 03:41:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration

In mail you write:

> Hi folks. I've been screwing around with the idea of creating some
> new rules for fusion-powered maneuver drives, and as I was running
> the numbers, I came across some conclusions that are so totally
> opposite my preconceptions that I thought I'd pick your brains to
> find out what I'm doing wrong. Keep in mind when you're going over
> this that I'm probably the last person on this list who would ever
> start a gearhead discussion. My familiarity with physics amounts to
> a few brief articles in some 30-year-old encyclopedias weighing
> down my bookshelf. I've never taken a class in the stuff, not even
> in highschool, so you can safely assume that the following material
> is error-infested. So much for my general disclaimer. Now here we
> go...
>
> I started with the idea of typical solar fusion:
>
> protium + protium => deuterium
> protium + deuterium => helium-1
                         Helium-3 (as it has 3 particles in the nucleus)

> helium-1 + helium-1 => helium-2 + 2 protiums

I think you meamn helium 4 not 2.

> So, in total, 4 protiums (hydrogen-1) are converted to 1 helium-2
> 4 protiums weigh in at 4.03188 amu
> The helium-2 weighs in at 4.0026 amu
> So we've got a mass loss of .72%
>
> This was a tad higher than what I anticipated, but no biggie.

That's about right, even though the way the sun does it is rather
different. 

> I went on to assume that the formula for fusion-powered energy
> conversion is:
>
> e=mc^2

For *any* conversion of matter into energy.

>
> where e is the energy in joules,
> m is the conversion mass in kilograms
>    (that .72% of the reaction mass), and
> c is the speed of light in meters per second.
>
> I don't know why this should be the case, but it's what I read
> somewhere.

It's the case because that's the way the universe works . :-)

> Even assuming the equation is correct for this purpose,
> I'm still concerned about my units, so somebody please check them
> out. I'm no expert.

The units are fine. The equation doesn't *care* what units you use.
It's just that, for example, if you have the speed of light in meter's
per second, and the mass in kg  then you *have* to use joules because
of the way the math works.

e = kg * (m/s)^2
e = kg * m^2/s^2
e = kg m^2/s^2

Thus the unit of energy your answer is in is kg/m^2/s^2 which happens
to be the *definition* of joules. 

> Onward and forward... if this is all correct so far, then fusing
> one gram of protium results in:
>
> m = .001 * .0072
> c = 299,792,000
> e = mc^ = 647,101,700,000 joules

Close enough. My calculator gives 6.471017515e11
(or 6.471017515 * 10^11)

> The next question was how to convert this to accelleration,
> assuming that the 99.28% of the reaction mass, now in the form of
> helium-2, could be shoved out the back side of our make-believe
> starship. Again, I'm uncertain about my formula as well as my
> units, so please correct me, but my assumption was that:

> 1 joule = .74 poundals
>         = .74 feet/sec delta for 1 pound in 1 second
>         = .74 * .3048 m/sec delta for .4536 kg in 1 second
>         = .2256 m/sec delta for .4536 kg in 1 second
>         = .1023 m/sec delta for 1 kg in 1 second

Way too complex. Especially since you *can't* convert joules (energy)
into poundals (force).

What you should have done is this:

E = .5 * m * v^2

That is, the kinetic energy of a mass travelling at a given velocity is
one half of the mass, times the square of the velocity. Thus:

E = 6.471017515e11
m = .001 * .9928 = 9.928e-4
v = ?

E = .5 * m * v^2
2 * E = m * v^2
2 * E /m = v^2
sqrt(2E/m)=v

v = 3.610525372e7

or about 12% of light speed.

Of course in any *real* device, you'd never get 100% of the energy
applied as useful output.

> Or to state this another way, you get .1023 m/s/s accelleration for
> 1 second if you apply 1 joule to 1 kilograms. The accelleration
> increases linearly with joules and decreases linearly with
> kilograms. So, we can say:

Again, it doesn't work that way. Rockets work in very non-intuitive
ways. I suggest checking the sci.space FAQ, part 4 for useful constants
and formulas.

But in essence, the final velocity of a rocket depends on the exhaust
velocity, and the mass ratio of the rocket (the final mass versus the
starting mass). Simple formula:

delta V = Ev * ln(mass ratio). 

So a rocket with a mass ratio of e (2.718...) can change it's velocity
by an amount equal to the exhaust velocity of the engine. So it'd have
to start out weighing 2.72 units and finish weighing only 1. That's a
*lot* of fuel.

> proceed. Anybody want to take over? The whole point of this is that
> I'd like a simple formula or procedure into which you can plug in
> a newtonian value for accelleration (10 in this example) along with
> x (time), and get relativistic values for v (velocity) and d
> (distance).

It's in that faq, and it's *messy*. It uses hyperbolic functions.

From the FAQ:

	Classical rocket equation, where
	    dv	= change in velocity
	    Isp = specific impulse of engine
	    Ve	= exhaust velocity
	    x	= reaction mass
	    m1	= rocket mass excluding reaction mass
	    g	= 9.8 m / s^2

	    Ve	= Isp * g
	    dv	= Ve * log((m1 + x) / m1)
		= Ve * log((final mass) / (initial mass))

	Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(a*t/c)

	Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR:

	    at/c = Ve/c * ln(MR), or

	    t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(Ve/c * ln(MR))
	    d = c**2/a * (cosh(Ve/C * ln(MR)) - 1)
	    v = c * tanh(Ve/C * ln(MR))

From another section:

	299792458 m/s	  (3e8)  -- speed of light in vacuum "c"
	9.46053e15 m	  (1e16) -- light year
	206264.806 AU	  (2e5)  -- one parsec
	3.2616 light years (3)	 -- one parsec
	3.0856e16 m	 (3e16)  -- one parsec

Note that the speed of light is *defined* as that value. It's an exact
number. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 04:36:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining

In mail you write:

> I guess the problem is I don't picture fuel skimming as a missle run through
> atmosphere or water. I see it as more of a hover while pumps and compressors
> do the work, with ship movement providing the feed to the compressor/pump
> inlet scoops. I've always believed that the actual skimming operation runs
> parallel (time wise) with the purification. Ships scoops raw atmosphere
> through compressors, atmosphere is processed through the purification plant
> and is seperated by catalytic reaction, hydrogen is stored, "waste" elements
> are dumped. Once the tanks are full the ship leaves the GG. Water fueling is
> basically the same with oxygen being the "waste" material, except whats
> pulled off for life support. Other liquid oceans would be much the same,
> with other "wastes".

Well, it depends a lot on how you run CG. Figure out where the CG "cuts
off" and then try getting a 1g, 2g, etc ship away from the gas giant at
that point. Try various sizes of GG. 

Also, you do have to be moderately deep *or* moving pretty fast to get
a decent "pressure" in the scoops. Take the wind force equation I
posted in another message and punch in various sjip speeds and
atmospheric densities to get the effective pressure in the scoops. One
of the astronomy types can likely tell us at what altitudes you get
various densities and what the normal pressure at those altitudes is
like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:44:10 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives

David P. Summers writes:
>>To have my own points dismissed by a general statement and
>>to have my requests for specific arguments dismissed with a mere repeat
>>of the same general statement is bad enough
> 
>Hogwash. I responded when you first made the points.  Just because I won't
>do it again the second or third time you make them just means I won't beat
>a dead horse.

And you don't even want to force me to eat crow and apologize publicly to
you for slamming you falsely. Not even for the satisfaction of seeing me
back down are you willing to dredge up quotes and _prove_ me wrong. That's
damn noble of you.

>I've been in threads with you sever times where I answer a point,
>then you, a gazillion posts later, repeat the same points (I don't know,
>forgetting the original answers or just ignoring it) and go through
>the same old stuff all over again (often simply assuming your side
>has been "proven" because it wasn't mentioned recently).

I've no doubt that's the way you actually percieve reality. It's funny how
two different persons can participate in the same events yet percieve them
quite differently. As I recall it, mostly you and I start out with general
statements. At some point you make a response that contains an unproven
assumption or a false conclusion. I point that out to you. You respond
either by ignoring it or by restating your original position. Apparently
you feel that if you repeat the same statement often enough, it becomes
the truth. I'm less mystically inclined. When you fail to refute one of
my points I feel free to regard it as likely to be true. And I also feel
free to bring it up again later in the debate. When I do, you usually
bring up the original fallacious argument once more and, when challenged
once more, claim that you have already answered it before. Which, in a
way is prefectly true. The answer just happened to be worthless as an
argument in a serious debate.
 
>>You have also , but to have you claim that
>>you have, indeed, answered specifics, is just too much. So I'm going to
>>say flat out that what you are saying is not true. If that upsets you,
>>the remedy is simple. Just provide a few quotes of specific examples you've
>>provided of elements in previously published Traveller material that would
>>be invalidated by the existence of drop tanks[*] and I'll eat a large helping
>>of crow and apologize most humbly to you.
> 
>Except I _never_ claimed that drop tanks invalidate existing material in 
>the way you are talking about.

Well, that's not the way your arguments came across; the impression I got
was that the reason you opposed drop tanks was that they logically implied
developements in the canonical Traveller background that should have been
in evidence in previously published material, but were not. But I'm glad
to hear you admit that this is not the case. And do you recall a while back
when I repeated the criteria I used to determine whether I thought something
in the Traveller canon should or should not be changed? (IIRC you even said
that you agreed with them.) IMO canon should only be changed if it caused
logical conflicts with other parts of canon and then as little as possible. 
That was one of my axioms. Another was that the fact that something is not
mentioned in any Traveller publication is not proof that it does not exist,
unless it would have been of crucial importance to the subject of the
publication. Since you didn't challenge the axioms, further debate indicates
that you thought that my logic was false; that the conclusion I drew from my
axioms was not correct. In other words, that drop tanks did conflict with
other parts of canon. Are you following me?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #456
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 1 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 457



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: NEWS FLASH! Pirates face extinction!
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #454
Re: Berthing costs
Imperial Alphabet - the Font
Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)
Re: Modular Cutter : Modular Close Escort
Modular Cutter
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]
Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Deckplans
Zho Conspiracy
Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)
re: Hijackings
Re: Changing the Background and Jump Drives
Re: [TTL] Stere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:02:21 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH! Pirates face extinction!

David P. Summers writes:

>It will depend.  First on who close to your intended point
>you come in.  (if ships are coming a day later or earlier
>than intended, they may be scattered significantly away
>from the intended point). 

True. That's one of the points that has not, IIRC, been nailed down. Just
how do you aim a jump? If you aim for a specific bit of realspace (relative
to your own bit of realspace before you enter jump, I suppose), then the
time variation of +- a day will cause a big difference in your exit point
relative to a moving planet (and the moving star it orbits, I suppose...)
OTOH you may be aiming for a point relative to the planet (We know of at
least one real space phenomenon connected to a planet that affects jump
space, so its concievable that a jump exit point could be linked to the
gravity well represented by the planet).

Hmm... Now that I think about it, perhaps I'm wrong and the point has
been addressed. I seem to recall an old JTAS article by Marc Miller where
he specifies the uncertainty of a jump in spatial terms. I don't recall
the figures, but I think they were too small to be the result of the
time uncertainty. If so, then a jump exit point would seem to move with
the time. I'll have to check that when I get home.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:58:02 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #454

I think Rupert wrote:

>>05 commander
>>06 captain
>>06a fleet captain (a temporary wartime rank, not considered flag rank,
>>but commanding more than one ship)
>>07 commodore
>Commodore was once basically like your Fleet Captain rank - it was a
>temporary rank given to captains in the RN to give them authority over
>other captains (normally the more senior automatically had authority, no matter 
>what). IIRC that made it a flag rank, except that a commodore didn't
>have a personal flag, so it wasn't really a real flag rank. In WWII it was
>given to those in command of merchant convoys (probably one of the most
>thankless tasks on the ocean).
>>08 rear admiral

I remember when the US Navy tried to give flags to commodores (who were
captains in command of more than one ship (squadrons), but that made
them "flag rank" when the other services had to make 07 to get a flag. 
They of course did not like that so the plan went by the wayside....

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 15:25:46 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

Leonard Erickson writes:
Me:
>> Bruce Johnson replies:
>>>Actually Life Support also includes all the storage/dumping/recycling of
>>>wastes,
>>
>>Propably not. Life support cost are directly proportional to the number
>>of passengers. I doubt that waste disposal for 20 is twice as expensive
>>as waste disposal for 10. But I could be wrong.
> 
>I think it's a matter of *volume*. With 20 you have twice the volume of
>waste to process. 

Sure. No question. But do you think that it is realistic that the cost of
processing waste is directly proportional to the volume? Perhaps it is. I
did say "propably not", precisely because I'm not too sure about it. 

>>>heating, cooling,
>>
>>No. That's part of the ship's functions.
> 
>It's life support. Areas with no people in them don't need to be kept
>under the sort of strict temperature controls that the living areas
>have. Also, each passenger *adds* to the heat load the cooling system
>for the living quarters has to deal with. 

Sure, but how much of that extra burden is extra power consumption (which
is drawn from the ship's power plant) and how much of it is extra
consumables that must be replaced at the next port? (And what kind of
consumables do you use to deal with excess heat?)
 
>>>removing CO2 and other undesirable gases from the atmosphere,
>>
>>Yes. Another few 10s of credits.
> 
>Depends on how you do it. Cartridges for a week are apt to cost more
>than that.

How much? What would be a realistic figure?

>And methods that *don't* use "consumables" are apt to be more expensive.

In any case I am interested in the methods that use consumables, because I
_want_ the costs to be as close to the Traveller canon as possible. I just
don't believe in the Cr2000 figure. If you can persuade me to accept it,
then I'd be pleased as punch.

>But the fact that you can use them when there's a misjump and you are stuck
>in jump for *four* weeks instead of one may make them worth it to ship
>owners.

If fast drugs have a decent shelf life, then I'd prefer an emergency load
of them. Unfortunately Fast drug only costs Cr200, so even if it had a
shelf life of 14 days (which is, of course, ridiculous) they would only
add Cr200 to the life support costs.
 
>Personally, I wouldn't have chemical cartridge type purification on a
>jump capable ship or even on any sort of long duration craft. They are
>ok for shuttles and the like because they won't be in use more than a
>few days at a time.

OK, so are you saying that a life support system that use consumables is
LESS plausible than one that dosen't? Bummer!

And there remains the problem that a passenger and a crewmember costs the
same even though the passenger only burdens the life support system 2/3rds
of the time. Which might be ignored if the difference was smaller, but
1/3 of Cr2000 is a decent chunk of change. Multiply by 8-10 passengers
25 times a year and you're well on you way to have your annual maintenance
covered just by that saving...


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:33:29 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Imperial Alphabet - the Font

Someone's draft font for this is up on
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/bilanidi.zip
I'm not aware that there has been any updates to this.
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 08:46:42 -0500 
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)

Leonard Erickson posted:

<snippage of previous comments>
>> Hmm..I always thought skimming was performed by diving at the
>> magnetic poles. Is this a viable tactic? If so, it would make it
>> easy to find/target any skimming star/spaceships.
>
>That's the *worst* possible place to do it. You'll be cutting across
>the maximum number of "field lines" (thus inducing the mzximum current
>in any conductors in your ship). 

DOH!

>Your best bet for minimizing magnetic effects is to skim at the
>*equator*, but along a north/south path. 
>
>This is also good since determining *where* the magnetic poles are
>isn't the easiest thing to do until after you are already well into the
>planet's magnetic field.
>
>But the magnetic fields aren't *that* much of a problem. The problem is
>the charged particles trapped in them. Jupiter's "Van Allen" belts are
>*huge*. And the major moons are right in the middle of them.
>
>As I recall, you'd get a lethal radiation dose in *minutes* on the
>surface of, say, Io. 

You're right about Io. In fact, current theory is that the bombardment
of the charged particles is what is causing the volcanic activity Io
is known for.

>But they aren't a lot worse than a *major* solar flare. So if your ship
>is shielded well enough that you don't have to retreat into a shielded
>"storm cellar" in the center of the ship, you'll be ok (the storm
>cellar is fine for riding out a flare for a few hours to a couple of
>days, but you can't run a skimming operation from it).

Now there's a good idea! I can see such a hardened area being
standard on solar research vessels.

Does anyone else have thoughts regarding protection against rad
areas? Would a nuclear damper be useful as a "flare shield"? Or how
about an electro-magnetic field from FF&S used as armor against
plasma weapons by vehicles?  Wildstar, you out there?

By the way, does anyone know of a mail/newsgroup which discusses
or designs Traveller technology?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:08:24 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter : Modular Close Escort

>At 09:54 AM 30/04/98 -0400, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>>Designing modules is interesting; they must have their own internal power
>>and (if needed) environmentals, so are basically ships without drives.
>
>According to the FF&S1 rules for modules that are in the _Reformation
>Coalition Equipment Guide_ a module needs its own shell and internal
>structure, and only needs its own life support, controls and AG units if it
>uses more than 30% of the parent vessel's volume. Modules don't need their
>own power if the parent vessel has enough surplus to power it, and can in
>fact porvide power to the parent vessel if they have a power plant that
>gives them a surplus.

Under the CT rules this would be difficult, because the difference in power
requirements between, say, the ATV module (almost no power needed) and the
Weapons Module (power for a triple laser turret needed) is quite large.  It
would not be efficient to install the power plant capable of covering all
contingencies in the drive section, so I would say the power plant (or
batteries, or whatever) for module missions is more logically installed in
the module.

Most modules, on the other hand, will need life support.  Probably the
drive/bridge section will contain that, and enough excess power generation
to cover the module's inertial comp and artificial gravity, which is also
present in just about every module.

In our current adventure (which is safely restricted to MTU) a Gazelle
class close escort has refitted the drop tank fittings to carry 30ton
standard modules.  A weapon module on each side is currently the norm.
Since the presence of two more turrets would be a violation of the
hardpoint rule, these are only usable when "deployed" or ejected from the
CE and set to guard around or near a particular item in need of remote
protection.  Note that each module has a power plant, turret, a cabin for
the gunner installed, communications and sensors (altough it really relys
on the mothership for sensor info).  The CE was drydock modified to fit
extra 'crawlspaces' and a couple of airlocks to allow access to the rest of
the ship from the modules.

Jo Grant came up with the idea, and I thought it quite a good one when
operating in an area or under circumstances where the additional fuel in
the drop tanks is not as useful.  Of course, I thought they should carry
more cargo.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:18:16 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Modular Cutter

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Under the CT rules this would be difficult, because the difference in power
requirements between, say, the ATV module (almost no power needed) and the
Weapons Module (power for a triple laser turret needed) is quite large.  It
would not be efficient to install the power plant capable of covering all
contingencies in the drive section, so I would say the power plant (or
batteries, or whatever) for module missions is more logically installed in
the module.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC the Broadsword LBB did mention added power in the Weapons
Module. Considering that a triple laser turret and gunner's station is only
one dt under CT, the other 29 tons should allow enough power and fuel.
Depending on the design, it might be possible to leave the Weapons
Module in place on a planet (or in orbit?) as an independent weapons
emplacement. I recall there being a Quarters Module that could be
set up (or used in the hangar) as living space whether it was attached
to the Cutter or not.

I would venture a guess that the Cutter carries enough power to allow
G-Comp and Life Support for the whole craft, module included, but that
any power-hungry module equipment (research labs, long-term
habitats, sensor arrays, etc) would have to include their own 
power supply.

btw, regarding the Assault Module with the entrenching gear - 
someone in another post stated that these would be useless
in a TL 11+ battlefield. I would still call the Module useful for
a few reasons:

1) This is a Mercenary Crusier. It isn't designed for fair fights.
Many (or even most) of it's jobs will be in TL 8 or less
environments. I may be wearing combat armor, but I still
want a foxhole when someone starts peppering me with
automatic weapons fire.
2) In almost any situation where a squad of leg infantry
would still be useful, giving them a place to hide while
they sort out the situation makes them more useful
still.
3) Mercenaries usually act to supplement local forces.
The Assault Module Cutter might spend all day shuttling
local TL 6-8 forces around, giving each squad an instant
fire base when they are dropped off at checkpoints,
crossroads, or wherever.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 10:22:16 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

>>So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this
>>but it only confused the matter more for me.
>
>Ok, here's what I *think* I know about it...


So it doesn't have something to do with the "Sparklers" written about in
DGP's MegaTraveller Journal #4? IIRC, they were pretty psionic, and coming
from the Core.

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 11:11:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]

I think I saw this in an old Dragon somewhere, but don't quote me on that


Sean Bayan Schoonmaker wrote:

> Teddy Lindsey wrote:
>
> >Do you happen to have anything showing the Imperial alphabet. I know I've
> >seen it once in an old magazine.
> >
> >- Ted
>
> Does anyone here know what he's talking about ?
>
> Please address replies to:
> schoon@aimnet.com
>
> Thanx,
> Schoon



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 98 18:11 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

Moin Michael D. Peters,

> With CG, lift is no longer needed so it would handle more like the
> Heindenburg, not the best ride in bad weather, but capable
  ^^^^^^^^^^^
> none-the-less.

	this would allow to skim fuel from a terran alike planet at
	good weather conditions. A gas giant has a much nastier weather,
	anythink that does'nt counter the wind is likely to fall to a
	high pressure high G area. Nothing I would like my players to
	encounter (of course they would survive, but I would have the
	burden to draw a new ship ;-). So a ship that wants to skimm
	fuel on a gas giant, or on a planet with "bad weather" has
	better to be hypersonic.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 08:39:08 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Deckplans

>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Good news?
...
>Unfortunately, if the deck plans follow the typical quality assosiated with
>the (several) examples of GURPS deck plans I have available, I'm not sure
>how much use they will be. For a game system that is VERY well suited for
>miniature play they seem very reluctant to place hex grids and scale to
>their published maps.

  Given the care that seems to be going into this, I think the least we
can expect is a scale bar at the side (possibly in both yards/meteres -
<gag>) even if no grid at all is there to clutter the map. For most RPG
sessions that's the important thing. Odds are that blowing these up 3-4
times isn't practical for everyone, illegal or not. Perhaps there'll be
a profusion of G:T based deckplans on web-sites once they clarify amongst
themselves things like deck-orientation, space per stateroom, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:35:38 -0500 
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Zho Conspiracy

Anybody know where I can get a copy of the computer game
"MegaTraveller 1 - The Zhodani Conspiracy"?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:13:52 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration

For anyone interested in realistic space travel, Ben Bova has written
"Space Travel: A writer's guide to the science of interplanetary and
interstellar travel" (Writer's Digest Books, ISBN 0-89879-747-0)
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 09:35:30 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
...
(I've deleted the debate about early [small?]-scale commercial
 implementation as I don't have FFW to hand - sorry)
...
>>   I agree. I prefer, and will likely use, demountable external tanks
>> with the added displacement affecting ship performance.
>
>I have absolutely no problem with "demountable" tanks.  However,
>I would think the need to have jump projectors to extend the
>field would make them pricy....

  What? "jump projectors"? How about the same system that takes
drop-tanks (as little as I like them) or even your hull into Jump?
What is it in HG, KCr 10 + 1/Dt? That's _dirt_ cheap. (off-topic,
too cheap? - hull tankage runs KCr 100/Dt!).

...
>> the FFW, so around 1106-1107. The Rebellion started in 1116? Also, the
>> Ilelish admin wouldn't have bothered to start the system up.
>
>Why?

  Because Dulinor has a secret :> He knows any such system will be a
short and medium term liability, and can delay implementation with
some tripe about it being a further example of the ossifying trend
in the 3I - once off a trade route, forever off a trade route.

...
>Hardly, this fleet can catch trader regardless of the method.
>The main difference is they know ahead of time where the
>good pickings is, but you know ahead of time where they
>have to attack.  It is a double edged sword.

 No. Both the trader and the fleet will spend most of their time
in Jump, and will have great difficulty meeting (even with the
outriders of said fleet). Where a conventional freighter could
try and evade to odd systems, wait, or simply run and hope, the
"station fed" ships must simply collect at the bottlenecks formed
by destroyed links in the system (courtesy of FI's ranging out).

  Seeings as the "fuel stations" _are routes_, including almost all
major worlds, to refer to "knowing where they must attack" as any
real advantage is absurd.

>So you have a system of stations that you can jump in to replace
>them.  (In fact, you can also have them set up to jump out
>if there is trouble).

  Wait, you're simultaneously claiming that these stations won't
likely cost hugely to install (see other thread). Now they're all
Jump tankers, presumably the Navy's supply? This is the same society
that's too cheap to install customs officers or patrol boats? One of
us is desperately missing some point or other. Who pays for these
spare (standardized?) Jump stations? They could be Navy tankers, but
that implies that the Navy does without or that their supply has been
very greatly increased, and that in an Imperium that _won't_ spend
money on internal security issues?

...
>Right, so what you do is use the fact that you know where they
>commerce raider need to attack to have the fleet that you
>have designated to defeat them waiting...

  This is ridiculous. See your own posts on "concentration of force"
and why that "proves" that escort ships wouldn't be detached for use
in anti-piracy patrols in peacetime. You now have to defend every
point (or enough, anyway), with a fleet waiting for raiders?

>>   A ship blew up for unknown reasons (and it might have been a
>> terrorist bomb) and that's a bug? Microsoft is a 3I megacorp?
>
>It was pretty clear to me that is was a bomb or something.

  I agree. Shippers (and their insurance companies) might disagree.

>However, you could, I suppose, make it some bug that delayed
>the technology to just before the rebellion, and then not
>allowed it to develop in the rebelion.  But that gets back
>to my remarks about careful contrivance.  But the, if it
>is never developed, how do the PC's have it?  If it is,
>then why isn't it being used the way it clear can be?

  It's not contrivance if the background calls it history.
Is it contrivance that he Ziru Sirkaa didn't simply giggle
and absorb Terra ("the squish heard `round the universe")?

  Remember, I'm against this technology, at least until
something fairly persuasive comes along. But I'm still
going to address the implementation issues as accurately
as I can.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 10:06:26 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: NEWS FLASH  - Pirates Face Extinction!
...
>I don't know about that.  The expense is unclear (and depends on
>how far you take the development of the technology).  The defenses
>will match the percieved need (and the iron is that as piracy
>becomes rarer, the percieved need will drop) and will be subject
>to the usual shortsightedness and profiteering that humankind is
>prone to.  I doubt it will be common (there will be clear need
>and it will be dealt with), but _never_ happen?  I'm not so sure.

  Not never. As the technology matures, some stations would be
built in uneconomic locations, and rot (including their security
arrangements). The expense is unclear, but presumed to be high on
the same basis that establishing fighter or SDB bases in all systems
(which I disagree with - patrolling is better) would be extravagantly
expensive. That was your point on anti-piracy, IIRC. Stations in well
travelled corridors will need very moderate armament for anti-piracy.

...
>I'm not talking about a misjump.  I'm talking about the accuracy
>to which you can place your exit point.  That could throw them
>off so that they are only some distance away.

  Correction. Sorry. In which case any armed ships at the station
are available, and the event will be occurring under the guns of
the station and any "(anti)-piracy communications satellites" that
have been emplaced, per the relevant hardware posts.

>>   They have to tamper with all the ships documents while in
>> Jump; the crew and passenger lists will all have to be modified,
>
>Depends on whether the Imperium bothers to list the crew and
>passengers for every single jump and how much trouble they
>go to do that.  You list could just be one that the captain
>made up for his own reference.

  Yes, if the Imperium effectively goes out of its way to allow
pirates, smugglers, spies, child-molesters and travelling salesmen
to operate at will, then hijacking (_not_ piracy) will be very easy.
Presumably another way around this would be to take over the ship
and then simply crayon a note authorizing it from Naval Intelligence.

  Again, under this admin regime _slaving_ is preferable, as you
simply load up your passenger, giggle, and sell `em off to bordellos,
organ-leggers, and telemarketers.

  The Imperium doesn't have to be Big Brother (OC, the insurance
companies will do that for them), but given their raison d'etre,
you can assume that they take reasonable security measures.

>> and they probably need to snuff the original crew (making for a
>> tough fight for the ship)
>
>Or hide them away someplace, but that is always a problem in
>highjacking.

  So customs inspections never occur IYTU? Do you suggest that
should be the background standard? In a more normal (canon?)
hijacking you have time at each end before dealing with the
authorities, or you may jumping to do GG refuelling, etc. If
you can reprogram before a jump you can meet cohorts to crew
and refuel the ship, and who can deliver any captives to the
authorities (thus avoiding guaranteed capital offenses).

>>, as there's absolutely no reason not
>> to have an on-board customs/security inspection at a refuelling
>> station with which they will have to dock anyway.
>
>Sure there is.  Cost.  Not everything that one can think of a reason
>for will happen.  Now I'm not saying it won't happen, but it will be
>based on the perceive need vs the cost.  As above, as the event gets
>rarer, the percieved need decreases.  That makes it hard to completely
>eliminate anything.

  This is back to the piracy debate, which I'll be happy to 
launch into again. We might want to make these Jump stations
robotic, to avoid the presence of security personnel who might
otherwise inadvertently interfere with criminal activities.

  The lack of customs staff also removes any prospect of these
stations being used for trans-shipping (at least to the downport)
which goes against what is provably a highly economic short-cut
for (intended high turnaround) scheduled shipping.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 14:36:34 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Hijackings

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
  The Imperium doesn't have to be Big Brother (OC, the insurance
companies will do that for them), but given their raison d'etre,
you can assume that they take reasonable security measures.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's the question, isn't it? Especially where the shady activities
of player characters are concerned...in a mileu where communication
is limited to the speed of the ship the authorities want information
about, what constitutes "reasonable security measures"? What kind
of authentication could you do that wouldn't require you to hold the
trader for a couple of weeks?

Considering how close to the wire some traders operate with regard 
to income vs ship payments, one or two customs stops to clear up
irregularities in the paperwork could put them out of business. 
A couple of traders moaning in a startown bar about how the "picky"
customs agents one system over cost them their ship would be enough
(for a world off the main trade routes) to make most of the other traders
stay away.

I've considered imperium-encoded flight plans (you tell the starport
authority where you are going, they send you an encrypted authentication
code, you transmit this code at your destination) but I didn't like it - 
any code used so regularly, especially in such a tech-variable environment,
will be broken readily. I maintain the code on a TL-12 mainframe, some
trader jockey's TL-15 handcomp breaks the code in 30 seconds. 
I maintain the code on a TL-15 mainframe, a Darrian expatriot hacker
makes a killing amongst the shady information market.

I decided it met the laissez-faire (with respect to trade) feel of the
Imperium, and the needs of my campaign, to make anti-hijacking
the business of the starship crew and the starship manufacturer,
with a few hijacking gangs becoming notorious but hard-to-catch
criminals - much like the very mobile bank robbers of the American
Midwest in the 1930's, they would act before the local authorities could
respond and then move to another area ahead of the wanted posters.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:34:53 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the Background and Jump Drives

Fri, 1 May 1998 11:33:45 +0100, Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
[Note: This was originally about drop tanks, I'm not sure when
it switched to jump torps, somehow it had and I never
realized it.  However, since I think jump torps are  mistake
too...]
>Steve Bonneville:
>>It's in the early, early version of Book 2, in the section on consumables
>>and custom missiles.  As I recall, it states that the referee may make
>>available alternative missile designs besides homing nukes, such as mines,
>>controlled missiles, and jump torpedoes.  No rules or guidelines for the
>>actual devices are included, those being the days when as Dave Arneson
>>once said, "there were no rules, only a referee with a whip and a chair".

>If anyone's interested the (c) 1977 Book 2 I have printed in the UK under
>licence from GDW by Games Workshop includes this too. (p.18)

>I was quite surprised by this as I confess to having long thought they been
>introduced in Leviathan.

I did to.  In any case, I am unable to find any such reference in
my version of book 2.  I don't see that this changes much.  The
passage described is hardly more of mention of notions about what
one might do and appears to be an after thought in some versions.
They are then mentioned once in an adventure and given no other
development.  Various rules in different versions give conflicting
answers on whether they are possible.  For those who consider them
as undermining the fundamental basis of the background (the slow,
difficult, and expensive communications) their seems no problem
with just eliminating them.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 11:37:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

Fri, 1 May 1998 02:31:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>No. *The* Official Kilogram is a bar of platinum iridium alloy in a
>vault in a Paris suburb. The ones elsewhere were made by measuring them
>against that primary standard (which is done as infrequently as
>possible to avoid wear on the standard!)

I'm fairly certain this is not longer true.  I think it is defined
by fundamental physcial properties (like the meter and the second).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #457
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 1 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 458



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Modular Cutter
~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]
Traveller Tech List
RE: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]
Re: Deckplans
Re: [TTL] Stere
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)
Re: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]
SEEKING PLAYERS IN SEATTLE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 20:41:00 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

Peter H. Brenton
>Most modules, on the other hand, will need life support.
Actually, if you remember, the standard trick when designing a ship is to
include life support for the entire volume. So if you design a modular
cutter with the module bay as a 30t cargo hold you have already accounted
for life support for the area the module will be in. It is only if you are
designing a deployable module (like the laser turret module) that can exist
independant of the cutter, that you need to factor in Life Support.
  Of course, it is hard-wired into the spreadsheet I use so I guess all my
designs are overengineered with life support in both the cutter and
modules. Ah, well, it makes it a plesant departure from the under-supplied
Scout/Courier...
  Here are my re-designs of the standard cutter and some modules for it.
     Jo

 CrafID: Modular Cutter, Type QT, TL 12, MCr 10.988
   Hull: 38/95, Disp=42 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=881 tons,
         Unloaded=467 tons
  Power: 1/2, Fusion=368Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 4/10, Maneuver=4, NOE=160, Cruise=750, Top=1000, Vacuum=3400
  Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: PasEMS=Far Orbit, ActEMS=V. Distant, ActObjScan=Difficult,
         ActObjPin=Difficult, PasEngScan=Formidible
    Def: DefDM=2
Control: Computer=0x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx251, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=2, (Bridge=1, Engineer=1), Staterooms=1
  Other: Cargo=28t, Fuel=3t, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Faint
The modular cutter is designed to carry one of many 30t modules availalle.

<PRE>
 CrafID: Pulse Laser Half-module, Type FL, TL 12, MCr 25.707
   Hull: 14/34, Disp=15 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=407 tons,
         Unloaded=390 tons
  Power: 4/11, Fusion=770Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=.1, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors: PasEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=Far Orbit, ActObjScan=Routine,
         ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
    Off:   PLaser=x02
            Batt  001
            Bear  001
    Def: DefDM=3
Control: Computer=1x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx286, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=3, (Bridge=1, Engineer=1, Gunners=1), Staterooms=3
  Other: Cargo=1t, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate
This module equips the cutter with a deployable pulse laser platform. It
cannot  be fired while attached to the cutter. When deployed it has
upgraded sensors, minimal maneuver thrusters for station keeping, and
accomidation for its 3 crew.

 CrafID: Cargo Module, Type FL, TL 12, MCr 4.041
   Hull: 27/68, Disp=30 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=570 tons,
         Unloaded=201 tons
  Power: 0/1, Fusion=30Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=0, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors:
    Def: DefDM=2
Control: Computer=0x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx92, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=0)
  Other: Cargo=27t, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Faint
This is an empty cargo module for the modular cutter. There is a 3t
overhead in providing for power and environmentals for the 27t of remaining
cargo space.

 CrafID: Passenger Module, Type FL, TL 12, MCr 3.759
   Hull: 27/67, Disp=30 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=183 tons,
         Unloaded=179 tons
  Power: 0/1, Fusion=30Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=0, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors:
    Def: DefDM=2
Control: Computer=0x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx85, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=0), Seats=90x*Roomy
  Other: ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Faint
This is a passenger module for the modular cutter. 90 seats can be fitted.

 CrafID: Beam Laser Half-module, Type FL, TL 12, MCr 27.219
   Hull: 14/34, Disp=15 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=407 tons,
         Unloaded=391 tons
  Power: 4/11, Fusion=770Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=.1, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors: PasEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=Far Orbit, ActObjScan=Routine,
         ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
    Off:   BLaser=x03
            Batt  001
            Bear  001
    Def: DefDM=3
Control: Computer=1x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx304, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=5, (Bridge=1, Engineer=1, Gunners=3), Staterooms=3
  Other: Cargo=1t, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate
This module equips the cutter with a deployable beam laser. It cannot be
fired while attached to the cutter. Once deployed it has an upgraded sensor
package, minimal thrusters for station keeping, and cabins for the 5 crew.

 CrafID: Fuel Module, Type FL, TL 15, MCr 2.923
   Hull: 27/67, Disp=30 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=447 tons,
         Unloaded=120 tons
  Power: 0/0, Fusion=30Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=0, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors:
    Def: DefDM=2
Control: Computer=0x3, Panel=Holographic Linkedx54, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=0)
  Other: Cargo=24t, FuelPurify=6 hours, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Faint
The fuel module enables the cutter to scoop and store 24t of fuel, purifing
it as it returns.

 CrafID: Fighter Module, Type FL, TL 12, MCr 1.381
   Hull: 6/15, Disp=7 tons, Config=3SL, Armour=40, Loaded=62 tons,
         Unloaded=60 tons
  Power: 0/0, Fusion=7Mw, Duration=12/36
   Loco: 0/0, Maneuver=0, Cruise=750, Top=1000
  Commo: Radio=None
Sensors:
    Def: DefDM=2
Control: Computer=0x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx19, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=0), Staterooms=2, SubCraft=5t x 3
  Other: ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate
This is a fighter module for the modular cutter. It can support 3 of the
standard 5t fighter and has 2 cabins for its crew.
</PRE>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:22:53 -0700 
From: amarin@walldata.com
Subject: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]

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this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Questions:

1.	How does one figure periodic maintenance costs for star ships (e.g.
FAR TRADER)?
2.	What are the different modes of propulsion (FTL, JUMP, Sub-Speed,
etc.)?
3.	What are the effects (speed, fuel, etc.) of said modes of travel
(see # 2). 
4.	How many T4 books do I "really" need?

I am fairly new refereeing T4. Even so, I have changed the background
completely from an Imperium to a Theocracy, Catholic to be precise (makes
for new social and scientific rules and very interesting Science Fiction).
But that's another story. 

Sooo... I am attempting to put together a group. The four of us play in
Seattle. At Wizards of the Coast. Once a month on RPG Tourney Saturday.
Usually around the 25th on each month (barring holidays). I am looking for
players or advice for drawing new players to the game (my game). Traveler,
although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having trouble
finding players in my area. Could use any advice...

Have tried the following:

Local College Posting
Hobby Shop postings
This Mailing List (just now)
rec.games.frp.misc
http://www.mpgn.com/ <http://www.mpgn.com/> 

A Thought: Perhaps we should collectively request IG to run a news group???

Andrew Marin (SQAE Wall Data Inc.)
amarin@walldata.com <mailto:amarin@walldata.com> 


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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:26:14 -0500
From: "LLOYD ROBINSON" <LJR@sbscorp.com>
Subject: Traveller Tech List

David.Smart@ons.octel.com wrote: 

> By the way, does anyone know of a mail/newsgroup which discusses
> or designs Traveller technology?

There is the Traveller Tech mailing list available. Send a message with 'subscribe' in the message to
trav-tech-request@qrc.com or to trav-tech-digest-request@qrc.com for the digest version.

Lloyd

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:54:41 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]

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>A Thought: Perhaps we should collectively request IG to run a news group???
>

BAHAHAHA!  Thanks!  I was having a bad day.  I needed that!  :)


Brian

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Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:48:05 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 1:03 PM
Subject: Deckplans


>
>  Given the care that seems to be going into this, I think the least we
>can expect is a scale bar at the side (possibly in both yards/meteres -
><gag>) even if no grid at all is there to clutter the map. For most RPG
>sessions that's the important thing. Odds are that blowing these up 3-4
>times isn't practical for everyone, illegal or not. Perhaps there'll be
>a profusion of G:T based deckplans on web-sites once they clarify amongst
>themselves things like deck-orientation, space per stateroom, etc.
>

Deck orientation doesn't bother me, I've always operated on a case by case
basis anyway. Conversions form GURPS Vehicles are what I'm looking at, for
displacement values, etc. I want to see if they are going to use straight up
GURPS values or tailored to Trav's historic values. Heck I already have a
hex grid build in Corel, just waiting for the info.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 16:18:51 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

>I'm fairly certain this is not longer true.  I think it is defined
>by fundamental physcial properties (like the meter and the second).


I think it is actually the only metric measure that is *not* defined that
way. I think the problem has something to do with measuring the number of
fundamental particles in a given volume. [a quantum effect?]


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:26:18 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

Fri, 01 May 1998 09:35:30 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >I have absolutely no problem with "demountable" tanks.  However,
> >I would think the need to have jump projectors to extend the
> >field would make them pricy....

>   What? "jump projectors"? How about the same system that takes
> drop-tanks (as little as I like them) or even your hull into Jump?
> What is it in HG, KCr 10 + 1/Dt? That's _dirt_ cheap. (off-topic,
> too cheap? - hull tankage runs KCr 100/Dt!).

Jump Projectors was a bad term.  The point is that you need too
have the Lanthanum grid, and any associated hardware, around
the tanks.  So they will need at least a portion of a jump
drive.

> >> the FFW, so around 1106-1107. The Rebellion started in 1116? Also, the
> >> Ilelish admin wouldn't have bothered to start the system up.

> >Why?
 
>   Because Dulinor has a secret :> He knows any such system will be a
> short and medium term liability

Which secret are you talking about?  And, in any case, that secret
will still be propigated the old way and the system would never
be built fast enough to affect something that was already being
propigated through the Imperium.

> major worlds, to refer to "knowing where they must attack" as any
> real advantage is absurd.

One can't have it both ways.  If trade is easy to cut off because
jump stations are only present at certain worlds along certain
routes, then you also know where the enemy commerce raiders need
to go to attack it.  If you don't know where they will attack]
because jump stations are all over the place, then ships will
find it easy to find alternate routes.

> >So you have a system of stations that you can jump in to replace
> >them.  (In fact, you can also have them set up to jump out
> >if there is trouble).

>   Wait, you're simultaneously claiming that these stations won't
> likely cost hugely to install (see other thread). Now they're all
> Jump tankers, presumably the Navy's supply?

No, I'm saying they navy will have "jump tankers" as backups, like
the army has pontoon bridges in case the "real" ones get knocked
out.

>  This is the same society
> that's too cheap to install customs officers or patrol boats?

Wait a minute.  I never said they were.  I said the cost of those
will depend on percieved need.  And it will.  

I also said there is the issue of profiteering and shortsightedness.
This may, or may not, happen.  However, if you want to assume
that something _can't_ happen then you have to deal with it.
OTOH, you can assume that is will happen to support something.
The fact that it can go either way makes firm predictions
that hinge around that impossible.

> >Right, so what you do is use the fact that you know where they
> >commerce raider need to attack to have the fleet that you
> >have designated to defeat them waiting...

>   This is ridiculous. See your own posts on "concentration of force"
> and why that "proves" that escort ships wouldn't be detached for use
> in anti-piracy patrols in peacetime. You now have to defend every
> point (or enough, anyway), with a fleet waiting for raiders?

You don't.  You do have to concentrate force.  In situations where
one force wants to avoid confrontations (because it want's to 
attack traders which are easier targets) getting your concentration
to the same place as theirs is problematic.  If you have a situation
where you have a better idea of the places they need to go, things
are easier.

> >However, you could, I suppose, make it some bug that delayed
> >the technology to just before the rebellion, and then not
> >allowed it to develop in the rebelion.  But that gets back
> >to my remarks about careful contrivance.  But the, if it
> >is never developed, how do the PC's have it?  If it is,
> >then why isn't it being used the way it clear can be?
> 
>   It's not contrivance if the background calls it history.
> Is it contrivance that he Ziru Sirkaa didn't simply giggle
> and absorb Terra ("the squish heard `round the universe")?

Well, it is.  You can contrive history to work out a cetain
way.  Some degree of that is necessary.  However, the more
you do it the more the history gets a "contrived feel".
You are better off with a few  key elements contrived
(Dulinor met an accident before he killed Stephon) than
with numours contrivances to try and stem the numerous
concequences of a new technology.

>   Remember, I'm against this technology, at least until
> something fairly persuasive comes along. But I'm still
> going to address the implementation issues as accurately
> as I can.

I don't disagree that these rationalization aren't better than
nothing if you are going to have the technology and aren't
going to let the natural consequences take effect.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 14:54:27 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Pirates and Jump stations (?)

Fri, 01 May 1998 10:06:26 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >I don't know about that.  The expense is unclear (and depends on
> >how far you take the development of the technology).  The defenses
> >will match the percieved need (and the iron is that as piracy
> >becomes rarer, the percieved need will drop) and will be subject
> >to the usual shortsightedness and profiteering that humankind is
> >prone to.  I doubt it will be common (there will be clear need
> >and it will be dealt with), but _never_ happen?  I'm not so sure.

>   Not never. As the technology matures, some stations would be
> built in uneconomic locations, and rot (including their security
> arrangements). The expense is unclear, but presumed to be high on
> the same basis that establishing fighter or SDB bases in all systems
> (which I disagree with - patrolling is better) would be extravagantly
> expensive. That was your point on anti-piracy, IIRC. Stations in well
> travelled corridors will need very moderate armament for anti-piracy.

OK.  I agree that it would make piracy harder.  I just have
doubts about "extinct".

>   Correction. Sorry. In which case any armed ships at the station
> are available, and the event will be occurring under the guns of
> the station and any "(anti)-piracy communications satellites" that
> have been emplaced, per the relevant hardware posts.

Will the orbital motion of the planet (or station if you have it in
solar orbit) for a day (that is the variation
in jump period right?) coupled with the variation in the
spacial location of the exit point (which I think is
relatively small on these scales) not put the ship
out of range of a ship at the jump point.  I think
it will, but I haven't gone through the numbers.

> >Depends on whether the Imperium bothers to list the crew and
> >passengers for every single jump and how much trouble they
> >go to do that.  You list could just be one that the captain
> >made up for his own reference.

>   Yes, if the Imperium effectively goes out of its way to allow
>  pirates, smugglers, spies, child-molesters and travelling salesmen
> to operate at will, then hijacking (_not_ piracy) will be very easy.

I don't see not making sure that every ship has a some sort of
unfoolable document of every person aboard on every
jump that can be checked at the destination without
communication back to the starting point as "going out
of its way to allow pirates, smugglers, spies, child-molesters and
travelling salesmen to operate at will"

> Presumably another way around this would be to take over the ship
> and then simply crayon a note authorizing it from Naval Intelligence.

Lets stay away from snide remarks.  I made a valid point. Please
give me the respect I deserve.

[more of the same]

>   The Imperium doesn't have to be Big Brother (OC, the insurance
> companies will do that for them), but given their raison d'etre,
> you can assume that they take reasonable security measures.

Yeah, but is your view of security measures the only
reasonable one?  If hijackings are rare (as I thing they would
be given there a number of serious obstacles, then having to
go through what it would take to make a system that would
be workable would be nontrivial.  You would basically need
to have a system that would make any forging of documents
almost impossible.  It's not clear if this is possible,
let alone reasonable.
(Even Imperial seals are verfied at least partially by
checking the serial number back with the number on record
for it, that won't work for screening ships coming in from
another planet).

> >Or hide them away someplace, but that is always a problem in
> >highjacking.

>   So customs inspections never occur IYTU?

No, I said that it isn't certain that every jump station
will have custom stations.  There are no direct taxes
on Imperial trade and goods can only be taxed on the
world when they leave the starport.  (right?  taxes
never appear on any of the starships economics directly
and the Imperium has the sole right to tax interstellar
trade).  Even if it were, it isn't clear that there
will customs at _every_ station (you could take stuff
that owes taxes into Canada from the US without passing
through customs.  That was before the free trade pact.)

> In a more normal (canon?)
> hijacking you have time at each end before dealing with the
> authorities, or you may jumping to do GG refuelling, etc.

True.  That makes it more difficult.  I don't see that
it makes it impossible.

> >Sure there is.  Cost.  Not everything that one can think of a reason
> >for will happen.  Now I'm not saying it won't happen, but it will be
> >based on the perceive need vs the cost.  As above, as the event gets
> >rarer, the percieved need decreases.  That makes it hard to completely
> >eliminate anything.
> 
>   This is back to the piracy debate, which I'll be happy to 
> launch into again.

Why don't we just stick to the point raised here?  The
fact is that any claim that people will be posted, 
documents generated and checked, ships delayed, etc.
will OK simply because it might eliminate a problem
(at least until the other side finds a new way around
it) is incomplete.  Otherwise we would custom officers
on every road between the US and Canada).
[snide remarks deleted....]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 19:37:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]

amarin@walldata.com wrote:

> Questions:
>
> 1.      How does one figure periodic maintenance costs for star ships (e.g.
> FAR TRADER)?

Dunno.  HOw much ya got and how badly do you want to risk a misjump?

> 2.      What are the different modes of propulsion (FTL, JUMP, Sub-Speed,
> etc.)?

No FTL - Jump instead.  STL: Gravity Plate Thrusters, HEPLAR Thrusters.  I
think there are more somewhere.

> 3.      What are the effects (speed, fuel, etc.) of said modes of travel
> (see # 2).

That should be in T4 Rulebook.  Also FireFusionSteel2.

> 4.      How many T4 books do I "really" need?

The Basic Rule Book (although you may want to ask for a copy of T4.1 beta stuff
(mostly chargen though).  The rest depends on the campaign you want to run.
Milieu 0 is worthwhile and interesting.  Emperor's Arsenal and Central Supply
Catalogue for equipment etc.  Fire Fusion and Steel 2 if you want to design
things, including ships.  Imperial Sqaudrons for large scale combat.  Pocket
Empires for star-system management/economics.  Skip Starships!  Alien Archive
is about the coolest T4 supplement that there is, but its usefulness is
entirely up to you.  It only details minor alien races, but they rock.

> I am fairly new refereeing T4. Even so, I have changed the background
> completely from an Imperium to a Theocracy, Catholic to be precise (makes
> for new social and scientific rules and very interesting Science Fiction).
> But that's another story.

Check out:  http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/religion.htm

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 17:19:52 -0700 
From: amarin@walldata.com
Subject: SEEKING PLAYERS IN SEATTLE

This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7561.43B1657E
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	charset="iso-8859-1"

We are a new group who play T4 in Seattle, at Wizards of the Coast, once a
month on RPG Tourney Saturday (usually around the 25th on each month...
barring holidays). If you live in the Seattle area and are interested in
joining us for Traveler, drop me a line at: amarin@walldata.com.

I am also looking for advice on drawing new players to the game (my game).
Traveler, although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having
trouble finding players in my area. Could use any advice...


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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #458
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Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 459



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED
Re: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]
Re: Spin habs in combat
gas giant radiation environments
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458
re: Hijackings
Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu 
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd) 
Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration
re: SEEKING PLAYERS IN SEATTLE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 08:08:09
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458

- -
>
>Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 13:22:53 -0700 
>From: amarin@walldata.com
>Subject: ~ T4: Questions, Questions, Questions... [amarin@walldata.com]
>
>Questions:
>
>1.	How does one figure periodic maintenance costs for star ships (e.g.
>FAR TRADER)?

Canon is 0.1% of ship costs per annum, done at a class B or better
starport. It takes the ship offline for 2 weeks.

>2.	What are the different modes of propulsion (FTL, JUMP, Sub-Speed,
>etc.)?

FTL is jump drive ... throw the switch, use the fuel, go into Somewhere
Else for 6-8 days and arrive.

Sub-speed is either thruster plates (pour in power, get thrust) or some
form of reaction engine (Heplar is pour hydrogen thru your fusion plant and
chuck it aft).

Etc is detailed in Fire Fusion and Steel *grin*

>3.	What are the effects (speed, fuel, etc.) of said modes of travel
>(see # 2). 

Thruster plates keep working until you run out of fuel for your power plant
or you get outside a star's gravity well (it's a game fix to stop people
accelerating rocks to a sizeable fraction of C and hitting enemy planets
with them).

>4.	How many T4 books do I "really" need?

T4 rulebook. Pocket Empires if you want to do economic development and the
clash of worlds. Fire Fusion and Steel if you're a gearhead. Emperors
Arsenal if your players are gunheads. Central Supply Catalog is good.

>
>I am fairly new refereeing T4. Even so, I have changed the background
>completely from an Imperium to a Theocracy, Catholic to be precise (makes
>for new social and scientific rules and very interesting Science Fiction).
>But that's another story. 

Fair enough.

>
>Sooo... I am attempting to put together a group. The four of us play in
>Seattle. At Wizards of the Coast. Once a month on RPG Tourney Saturday.
>Usually around the 25th on each month (barring holidays). I am looking for
>players or advice for drawing new players to the game (my game). Traveler,
>although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having trouble
>finding players in my area. Could use any advice...

Doesnt Kenji live in Seattle ? *innocent look*

>A Thought: Perhaps we should collectively request IG to run a news group???
>

Ummm, IG went broke, and they couldnt arrange to get laid in a brothel with
a pocket full of $100 notes.

Certain persons on this list were also considering laying wire fraud
charges against them.

>Andrew Marin (SQAE Wall Data Inc.)
>amarin@walldata.com <mailto:amarin@walldata.com> 

Good to have you abord, but can you please throw switches on your emailer
as appropriate so we dont get either the MIME encoding, or the PGP security
key thing ?

Ian Whitchurch

"A starship, a robot, two sex toys and a gun ... the raw, heady essences of
an interstellar society"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:55:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>[Note: this is in response to Hans, is probably not worth reading, and
>is that
>last I have to say on the matter.  I wasn't even going to read his
>response,
>it might have been better had I not.]

<RANT>

You two won't let it lie, will you?

I'd ask you to bury the hatchet but I suspect it would end up between
someones shoulder blades.

You're not going to agree (dare I mention PIRATES for a previous example),
so please take this off the list if you must continue... at least we don't
get the stupid 'this is the last time I'm going to post on this topic part
34567543' then. It's like the old James Blish Star Trek books with everyone
trying to get the last word in.

</RANT>

Dom

PS apologies to the rest of the list.

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:05:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: FS: DGP MegaTraveller Products]

 "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca> wrote:

>By looking at the price this guy is charging, I almost feel like selling
>mine also.  I was rich and I never knew it. ;-)

Interesting isn't it? My FLGS sold a copy of Ringworld RPG for  120 UK
pounds (say $180 US) and shifted the same games' companion for 40 last
EuroGenCon. And I have mint copies of both... I was tempted to sell but
thought better of it.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:15:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Spin habs in combat

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>But it's *angular* momentum you are dealing with. Anything that slows
>down the rotating section speeds up the formerly non rotating section.
>You'll reach zero *relative* rotation between the sections, but the
>ship as a whole will now be rotating.

Agree...., but that rate can be minimised through judicious management of
the mass distribution (hence inertia) of the ship.

>> We used to stop flywheels from 50k rpm at work by driving them like this.
>> They had pretty insignificant friction and operated in a vacuum. I suppose
>> there was a low <2 Nm torque acting in this case, but you could balance
>> this out with judicious use of thrusters. Looking back, I suppose that
>> means I agree with you ;-)
>
>The "non rotating" frame of the flywheel was anchored to the earth.
>Every time you sped up or slowed down the flywheels, you changed the
>earth's rotation slightly.

Yep.. I kind of realised that towards the end of that rambling section. The
initial post was discussing storing the rotational energy, then moved on to
angular momentum. Personnally, I'd spin down nice and slowly and use a
thruster to kill the spin of the main body.

>People living at the bottom of a gravity well have a distorted notion
>of physics.

Even with respect to physics at the bottom of the well... rotational bodies
do interesting things - in one case I know of, a series of failures in high
speed rotating bodies was induced by the effect of the neap tides shifting
the peninsula the units were on. Or at least, that was the only viable
explaination..

>(I'd *love* to get to play around in a physics classroom in a zero g
>section of a station, or on the ground using g-comp :-)

Me to!

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 1 May 1998 19:23:54 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: gas giant radiation environments

>You're right about Io. In fact, current theory is that the bombardment
>of the charged particles is what is causing the volcanic activity Io
>is known for.
Actually, Io's volcanoes are caused by tidal forces (Io gets bent out of
shape by Jupiter, and it's resonance orbit with Ganymede and Europa keeps
it from setting into a single shape/circular orbit.)

The gas from the volcanoes does indirectly contribute to the general
Jupiter environment, though.

The radiation environment close to Jupiter is one reason there are no
closeup Io pictures from Galileo - it hasn't made a close Io pass since
arrival, since it picked up >50% of its lifetime radiation dose when it
passed near Io during Jupiter insertion. The Galileo Extended Mission may
end with an "Io Death Plunge", though.

>>But they aren't a lot worse than a *major* solar flare. So if your ship
>>is shielded well enough that you don't have to retreat into a shielded
>>"storm cellar" in the center of the ship, you'll be ok (the storm
>>cellar is fine for riding out a flare for a few hours to a couple of
>>days, but you can't run a skimming operation from it).
>Now there's a good idea! I can see such a hardened area being
>standard on solar research vessels.
My labship for the March THUDD had such an armoured region (with
additional protection from fuel tankage) surrounding the bridge/
computers/jump drive...

>By the way, does anyone know of a mail/newsgroup which discusses
>or designs Traveller technology?
trav-tech-request@quark.qrc.com

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 22:54:35 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

On 05/01/98 at 10:22 AM,  yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich) said:

>>>So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this
>>>but it only confused the matter more for me.
>>
>>Ok, here's what I *think* I know about it...


>So it doesn't have something to do with the "Sparklers" written about in
>DGP's MegaTraveller Journal #4? IIRC, they were pretty psionic, and coming
>from the Core.

Almost certainly not. ;->  DGP wanted Sparklers, GDW wanted something else.
What that was never was made completely clear.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 22:58:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

On 05/01/98 at 06:11 PM,  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) said:

> So a ship that wants to skimm
> fuel on a gas giant, or on a planet with "bad weather" has
> better to be hypersonic.

I can accept streamlined, but *rhetorically* why hypersonic?  Surely,
supersonic or even transonic would do.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 98 23:07:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458

On 05/02/98 at 08:08 AM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> said:

>>A Thought: Perhaps we should collectively request IG to run a news group???

>Ummm, IG went broke, and they couldnt arrange to get laid in a brothel
>with a pocket full of $100 notes.

Ian, that's not entirely fair!  We don't *know* that IG couldn't arrange to
get laid in a brothel...;-> 

And amarin, IG may be gone, but Traveller is still alive. Marc Miller is,
hopefully, looking for another publisher to produce his new version. In the
mean time, Steve Jackson Games is coming out with a GURPS Traveller varient
this summer to give all us fellow travellers more subjects to
argue^h^h^h^h^h discuss. ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:27:05 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, May 01, 1998 9:32 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458



>>Sooo... I am attempting to put together a group. The four of us play in
>>Seattle. At Wizards of the Coast. Once a month on RPG Tourney Saturday.
>>Usually around the 25th on each month (barring holidays). I am looking for
>>players or advice for drawing new players to the game (my game). Traveler,
>>although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having trouble
>>finding players in my area. Could use any advice...
>
>Doesnt Kenji live in Seattle ? *innocent look*
>
MY GAWD! You would really sic Kenji on a NEWBIE?!?! WHAT"S WRONG WITH YOU,
MAN?!! I bet you throw kittens into lakes and pull the wings off flies for
fun, as well!!      ;*>

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 23:10:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Hijackings

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: re: Hijackings
...
>about, what constitutes "reasonable security measures"? What kind
>of authentication could you do that wouldn't require you to hold the
>trader for a couple of weeks?

Hello,
  The answer? I don't know, but I would take stabs at a few of the
more obviously cost effective (or _necessary_) measures, and hope
that I figure out the most obvious dodges before theplayers did.

  Search, check for contraband, bullet holes and bloodstains, boxes
of spare nuclear det-laser missiles. Possibly nothing else. You'd
at least want to file a complaint with the SPCA if you found an
undeclared hold of Vargr corsairs :)

  The near extreme variant of "detailed search of every ship at
range under heavy guns, etc., ad nauseum" (sounds like the TNE
Quarantine procedures) would be (IMO, and certainly undesirable
IMTU) impractical in the CT world of little traders flitting
about, unless you assume that the (suitably enlarged?) Marines
are effectively a Star Patrol surrogate (CHiPs from Hell?)

  Sadly, the debate on computers and encoding regimes is well beyond
me, and be well-represented on any TML searchable archives. 

>Considering how close to the wire some traders operate with regard 
>to income vs ship payments, one or two customs stops to clear up
>irregularities in the paperwork could put them out of business.
...

  I would shy away from measures that delay shipping significantly as
uncanonical. If you want to jump into a system* and meet a boat or drop
a cargo pod, so be it. You shouldn't be required to drop by the starport
for a search under those conditions. If an authenticated vessel with
the relevant authority tags you for a random search, the law would
specify that you pull over. Maybe the fine for jumping is worth it: only
an honest trader with a tight schedule would risk becoming a make-work
project for every tax and security agency in sight.

* - presupposes internal tankage - "jump stations" make the perfect
excuse for tightening up security - no jumping out from the vicinity
without clearance (presumably after a search).

  But a vessel will have to stop for fuel at such a jump station if
that is the transport mechanism. The single most cost efficient act
security agencies can take at that point is to conduct an on-site
inspection of your ship while fuelling goes on. If loading is going
on then you're _always_ going to have to deal with cargo inspections
by the receiving party at least - whoops! seal's broken on this box,
roll 1d d6 x10 minutes delay...

  If the ship is trading, then actual inspection is less likely to be
a problem than paperwork - like payment for your new spec cargo, and
insurance for the freight you've contracted to your next port.

...
>any code used so regularly, especially in such a tech-variable environment,
>will be broken readily. I maintain the code on a TL-12 mainframe, some
>trader jockey's TL-15 handcomp breaks the code in 30 seconds. 
>I maintain the code on a TL-15 mainframe, a Darrian expatriot hacker
>makes a killing amongst the shady information market.

  There is the implication that real Imperial security concerns are met
by the state of the art; circa 1100 that's the same TL 15 of the Imperial
Marines. However, the issue is where is that deployed? It would be
reasonable to say all important Imperial facilities, regardless of local 
tech; we can assume that Norris facilities at Regina included TL 15
command and control hardware and the personnel to support them.

  It comes to referee preference. Again, this issue is also a computer
gear-head paradise.

>I decided it met the laissez-faire (with respect to trade) feel of the
>Imperium, and the needs of my campaign, to make anti-hijacking

  It remains to a ref's campaign needs: if I were to run something in
some backwater security would vary from system to system, and I'm sure
that the PC's would develop an appreciation of what routes were best
for the "legal natures" of cargo they might have.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 00:09:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
...
>> What is it in HG, KCr 10 + 1/Dt? That's _dirt_ cheap. (off-topic,
>> too cheap? - hull tankage runs KCr 100/Dt!).
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                               
>Jump Projectors was a bad term.  The point is that you need too
>have the Lanthanum grid, and any associated hardware, around
>the tanks.  So they will need at least a portion of a jump
>drive.

  Demountable (as opposed to drop-) tanks will need a portion
of the hull apparatus, which is sadly _very cheap_ in HG/TCS.
I would almost certainly change this in my own campaign, but
the apparent costings are in the two lines above your question.

...
>> >> the FFW, so around 1106-1107. The Rebellion started in 1116? Also, the
>> >> Ilelish admin wouldn't have bothered to start the system up.
>
>> >Why?
> 
>>   Because Dulinor has a secret :> He knows any such system will be a
>> short and medium term liability
>
>Which secret are you talking about?  And, in any case, that secret
>will still be propigated the old way and the system would never
>be built fast enough to affect something that was already being
>propigated through the Imperium.

  Ilelish won't build the system because Dulinor knows that a civil war
is going to start. See the pair of two line sections above your question.

...
>One can't have it both ways.  If trade is easy to cut off because
>jump stations are only present at certain worlds along certain
>routes, then you also know where the enemy commerce raiders need
>to go to attack it.  If you don't know where they will attack]
>because jump stations are all over the place, then ships will
>find it easy to find alternate routes.

  See below for a detailed analysis. If someone on the list knows
better, their help in discussing the issue would be appreciated.
As it is I shall see if I can get a naval hobbyist to take a look
at it by late next week.

  Jump stations all over the place either exacerbate the case 
discussed below, or become casualties in short order. I'm not
happy with analogies in these cases, but the image comes to
mind of tankers holding station while U-boats check their handy
list of locations.

...
>>   Wait, you're simultaneously claiming that these stations won't
>> likely cost hugely to install (see other thread). Now they're all
>> Jump tankers, presumably the Navy's supply?
>
>No, I'm saying they navy will have "jump tankers" as backups, like
>the army has pontoon bridges in case the "real" ones get knocked
>out.

  The Navy has tankers already tasked for fleet use, and presumably
near the levels needed for a real war. Are the "jump tankers" you're
referring to those ones the Navy already has or new construction? I
mentioned this in the post you replied to, but you cut it without
addressing it. It affects both the cost of system implementation and
is impacted by the entire Navy budget / internal security debate.

>>  This is the same society
>> that's too cheap to install customs officers or patrol boats?
>                                                    ^^^^^^^
>Wait a minute.  I never said they were.  I said the cost of those
>will depend on percieved need.  And it will.  

  Granted. However, you simultaneously claim that anti-piracy
patrols will be too expensive to implement - even though numerous
analyses of the canonical Trav Imperium have indicated otherwise
(none of which were sufficiently refuted) in the same Imperium
that will blithely build a huge new superstructure of jump tankers
that will have no real peacetime role?

>I also said there is the issue of profiteering and shortsightedness.
>This may, or may not, happen.  However, if you want to assume
>that something _can't_ happen then you have to deal with it.
>OTOH, you can assume that is will happen to support something.
>The fact that it can go either way makes firm predictions
>that hinge around that impossible.

  Anything can happen, hopefully when the PC's are in proximity.
For background purposes it's establishing the relative likelihoods
that's relevant, i.e., if misjumping were too likely then the
Imperium would look radically different if it existed at all, as
others have pointed out. Malfeasance and incompetence are the
refs friends, although Trav computers may be reliable enough to
remove some of the fun - it should be much easier for manual
mis-filing than for an automated system using your unique 3I-ID#.

...
>You don't.  You do have to concentrate force.  In situations where
>one force wants to avoid confrontations (because it want's to 
>attack traders which are easier targets) getting your concentration
>to the same place as theirs is problematic.  If you have a situation
>where you have a better idea of the places they need to go, things
>are easier.

  If I have a sectors worth of warships and appropriate attachments
of intruders and light raiders, and you have similar (see FFW) force
(including SDB's) then a meeting between battlefleets might be a
crapshoot, although it might take months to arrange (see the run-up
to Trafalgar). In those months you have to protect each J-station
against a raider force increment, using approximately that same
force increment _fixed to that system_. The invader can move about,
and if he chooses to, can concentrate X force increments (Fi)where X
is greater than 1. Doing so in one system at a time costs the invader
one Fi per time period, while meeting this new threat costs the
defender one Fi _per key Jump-station-system until the nature of the
war changes_. The number of such systems must exceed one per sector.
These extra forces must come from your fleet assets, presumably,
thus writing down your superiority for the battleline clash.

  One of us has a serious problem visualizing concentration of force.

...
>Well, it is.  You can contrive history to work out a cetain
>way.  Some degree of that is necessary.  However, the more
>you do it the more the history gets a "contrived feel".
>You are better off with a few  key elements contrived
>(Dulinor met an accident before he killed Stephon) than
>with numours contrivances to try and stem the numerous
>concequences of a new technology.

  What if the new technologies consequences are intended? Again,
I'm against the implications of drop (not demountable) tanks.

>>   Remember, I'm against this technology, at least until
>> something fairly persuasive comes along. But I'm still
>> going to address the implementation issues as accurately
>> as I can.
>
>I don't disagree that these rationalization aren't better than
>nothing if you are going to have the technology and aren't
>going to let the natural consequences take effect.

  You don't disagree (potentially agree?) that these rationalizations
are not better than nothing? I.E., they're worse than useless? 
Whatever.

  As for the tech, failure to allow the natural consequences of
something to take effect (barring further mitigating factors)
pretty much goes against what Traveller tried to stand for in
methodology. I believe in the consequences being allowed to evolve,
I simply _really_ don't like drop tanks consequences. 

  That said, there are some interesting arguments presented to
suggest that the 3I might not be thrilled about implementation,
and that it occurring to a great extent before 1116 is not a
given, except by individual referees decision.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 04:57:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu 

> On 05/01/98 at 10:22 AM,  yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich) said:
> >So it doesn't have something to do with the "Sparklers" written about in
> >DGP's MegaTraveller Journal #4? IIRC, they were pretty psionic, and coming
> >from the Core.
> 
> Almost certainly not. ;->  DGP wanted Sparklers, GDW wanted something else.
> What that was never was made completely clear.

Right.

What's a Sparkler?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 04:59:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd) 

> On 05/01/98 at 06:11 PM,  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) said:
> 
> > So a ship that wants to skimm
> > fuel on a gas giant, or on a planet with "bad weather" has
> > better to be hypersonic.
> 
> I can accept streamlined, but *rhetorically* why hypersonic?  Surely,
> supersonic or even transonic would do.

Because of the speeds involved.  Surface gravities and escape velocities of 
gas giants tend to be pretty high, so you'd want your ship to be moving pretty 
quick when it skims if you have a low-thrust manuver drive.  That way, you 
won't need as much delta-vee to get out alive.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:23:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fusion Powered Acceleration

Doug Berry wrote:

>For anyone interested in realistic space travel, Ben Bova has written
>"Space Travel: A writer's guide to the science of interplanetary and
>interstellar travel" (Writer's Digest Books, ISBN 0-89879-747-0)

And very good it is too. As are the others in the series "World Building"
and "Aliens and Alien Societies".

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 02:31:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: SEEKING PLAYERS IN SEATTLE

amarin@walldata.com wrote:

>I am also looking for advice on drawing new players to the game (my game).
>Traveler, although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having
>trouble finding players in my area. Could use any advice...

I suspect that they are TNE players who are put off by your Virus like mail
messages, if that's how you look for new players.....

>- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BD7561.43B1657E
>Content-Type: application/ms-tnef
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64
>
>eJ8+IjgAAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy
>b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQSAAQAbAAAAU0VFS0lORyBQTEFZRVJTIElOIFNFQVRUTEUALwcB
>CYABACEAAAA4Qzc1OTcxNTE3RTFEMTExOUQyRTAwNjBCMDU3NkFGNwD+BgEggAMADgAAAM4HBQAB
>ABEAHAAsAAUAOQEBBYADAA4AAADOBwUAAQARABMANAAFADgBAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEDkAYA9Ag

Try and find a newsletter/RPG magazine locally, and run something in a
classified in it. Otherwise :-\ you could try running a damn good game and
getting your players to tell people how good it is to poach people....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #459
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 2 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 460



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Silly weapon
Re: [TTL] Stere
Re: Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)
Re: Berthing costs
Bar Trek III - the Search for Kenji
Re: To tech or not to tech?
FYI - Azhanti High Lightning For Auction
Re: FYI - Azhanti High Lightning For Auction
Re: [Fwd: Traveller Collection sale/Auction]
Re: To tech or not to tech?
Re: Uplift
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu 
Re: Zho Conspiracy
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #452
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:56:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Silly weapon

I thought this weapon is appropriate for some of the odder weapons
firms on the list. Anybody want to design one?

[re-mailed to you from alt.callahans]
[the original seemed to come from skyefire@aol.com]

> Speaking of which, we want you to field-test this new item for the
> GBG toy line.  We call it the Mauler Rifle: it uses focussed
> gravitational stresses to accelerate any projectile you select from
> the Trans-Fictonic Infinite-Variety Inexhaustible Ammo Feed System
> (Now running on Windows 98!tm).
> Here, let me demonstrate--
> Suiting action to words, SkyeFire selects "Popcorn" from the menu,
> pings Mr Gawne with the laser rangfinder, aims overhead, and pulls
> the trigger.  Gravcoils in the barrel accelerate popcorn kernels to
> the precise speed where aerodynamic friction will cause them to pop
> directly overhead, at a feed rate of 500 kernels per second.
> Unfortunately, the darn thing won't shut off.
> And remember that "Inexhaustible" part of the Ammo Feed System?
> "Eat, Folx!  EAT FOR YOUR LIVES!!!!!!!"
>
> BTW....does this mean we *don't* get the toy contract?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:25:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

In mail you write:

> Fri, 1 May 1998 02:31:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>No. *The* Official Kilogram is a bar of platinum iridium alloy in a
>>vault in a Paris suburb. The ones elsewhere were made by measuring them
>>against that primary standard (which is done as infrequently as
>>possible to avoid wear on the standard!)
>
> I'm fairly certain this is not longer true.  I think it is defined
> by fundamental physcial properties (like the meter and the second).

Then it's happened in the last couple of years, as I recall reading
stuff by scientists or engineers bemoaning the fact that the kilogram
was still defined by that chunk of metal in the vault.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:28:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson posted:
>
> <snippage of previous comments>
>>> Hmm..I always thought skimming was performed by diving at the
>>> magnetic poles. Is this a viable tactic? If so, it would make it
>>> easy to find/target any skimming star/spaceships.
>>
>>That's the *worst* possible place to do it. You'll be cutting across
>>the maximum number of "field lines" (thus inducing the mzximum current
>>in any conductors in your ship). 
>
> DOH!

"Here's the estimate for rewiring your ship. And here's the bill for
the tow from the GG to port..."

:-)

>>As I recall, you'd get a lethal radiation dose in *minutes* on the
>>surface of, say, Io. 
>
> You're right about Io. In fact, current theory is that the bombardment
> of the charged particles is what is causing the volcanic activity Io
> is known for.

I can see that explaining why there's so much sulfur coming off the
surface, but I thought it was tidal heating that was keeping the core
molten? 

>>But they aren't a lot worse than a *major* solar flare. So if your ship
>>is shielded well enough that you don't have to retreat into a shielded
>>"storm cellar" in the center of the ship, you'll be ok (the storm
>>cellar is fine for riding out a flare for a few hours to a couple of
>>days, but you can't run a skimming operation from it).
>
> Now there's a good idea! I can see such a hardened area being
> standard on solar research vessels.

> Does anyone else have thoughts regarding protection against rad
> areas? Would a nuclear damper be useful as a "flare shield"?

No. Remember, the damper affects the rate at which radiation is
emitted. But with a flare, the particles were emitted at the *star*. In
effect you are in the middle of a *huge* particle beam shot, but a
badly focused one.

> Or how about an electro-magnetic field from FF&S used as armor
> against plasma weapons by vehicles?

The stuff from the flare is more diffuse, but higher energy. Mostly
protons moving at a fair fraction of c. Take a hell of a field to
deflect that. And you have to worry about *where* you are deflecting it
*to*. Remember, the field *has* to have "poles" which means that the
direction things get deflected depends on what part of the field they
hit.

I'd think that any field that's good as shielding against flares is
going to be useful as at least *reducing* damage from particle beams,
as it's much the same thing.

And some flares will have an x-ray hazard as well.

> By the way, does anyone know of a mail/newsgroup which discusses
> or designs Traveller technology?

trav-tech@mpgn.com :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 01:43:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> Me:
>>I think it's a matter of *volume*. With 20 you have twice the volume of
>>waste to process. 
>
> Sure. No question. But do you think that it is realistic that the cost of
> processing waste is directly proportional to the volume? Perhaps it is. I
> did say "propably not", precisely because I'm not too sure about it. 

Not directly proportional. But the facilities on a ship are a *fixed*
size. So that means that twice the load *will* take twice as much
energy/consumables/whatever. It's not like comparing two *different*
units each designed for the specific load size.

>>>>heating, cooling,
>>>
>>>No. That's part of the ship's functions.
>> 
>>It's life support. Areas with no people in them don't need to be kept
>>under the sort of strict temperature controls that the living areas
>>have. Also, each passenger *adds* to the heat load the cooling system
>>for the living quarters has to deal with. 
>
> Sure, but how much of that extra burden is extra power consumption (which
> is drawn from the ship's power plant) and how much of it is extra
> consumables that must be replaced at the next port? (And what kind of
> consumables do you use to deal with excess heat?)

Ok, you have a point there.

>>>>removing CO2 and other undesirable gases from the atmosphere,
>>>
>>>Yes. Another few 10s of credits.
>> 
>>Depends on how you do it. Cartridges for a week are apt to cost more
>>than that.
>
> How much? What would be a realistic figure?

Not sure. Depends on what sort of chemical process you are using. CO2
will probably be done by something like lithium or calcium hydroxide.
The reaction converts the hydroxide to carbonate. 

Such canisters *are* used in some "life support" type situations on
earth. You may be able to find a price. But I'm not real sure how
easily you can.

Activated charcoal for filtering out the "miscellaneous junk" isd the
other likely iterm. Though it's also possible to use a sort of
"catalytic converter" to burn most of them to water, CO2, and nitrogen.
But you will have problems with the traces of sulfur, phosphorus,
chlorine and other such elements present. 

>>But the fact that you can use them when there's a misjump and you are stuck
>>in jump for *four* weeks instead of one may make them worth it to ship
>>owners.
>
> If fast drugs have a decent shelf life, then I'd prefer an emergency load
> of them. Unfortunately Fast drug only costs Cr200, so even if it had a
> shelf life of 14 days (which is, of course, ridiculous) they would only
> add Cr200 to the life support costs.

Slight problem. When you get that sort of misjump, who says that you
*know* how long it'll be before you exit jump? That makes the problem
rather different.

>>Personally, I wouldn't have chemical cartridge type purification on a
>>jump capable ship or even on any sort of long duration craft. They are
>>ok for shuttles and the like because they won't be in use more than a
>>few days at a time.
>
> OK, so are you saying that a life support system that use consumables is
> LESS plausible than one that dosen't? Bummer!

Not less plausible. Just less flexible if there are problems.

> And there remains the problem that a passenger and a crewmember costs the
> same even though the passenger only burdens the life support system 2/3rds
> of the time. Which might be ignored if the difference was smaller, but
> 1/3 of Cr2000 is a decent chunk of change. Multiply by 8-10 passengers
> 25 times a year and you're well on you way to have your annual maintenance
> covered just by that saving...

Where do you get 2/3rds? Both are on board for a week (duration of
jump) plus the time from takeoff to landing. While on planet or "in
dock" at a high port, the life support costs for the crew are *highly*
variable, depending on the local conditions.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 21:31:52
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Bar Trek III - the Search for Kenji

>Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 00:27:05 -0400
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458
>
>MY GAWD! You would really sic Kenji on a NEWBIE?!?! WHAT"S WRONG WITH YOU,
>MAN?!! I bet you throw kittens into lakes and pull the wings off flies for
>fun, as well!!      ;*>
>
>Mike Peters

Look, as far as we know, Kenji is just a pen name for some mild-mannered
bureaucrat working somewhere within the bowels of the Department of
Transportation in Seattle.

Hell, if none of my pervert friends in Seattle can find anyone who seems to
correspond to Kenji (do you know much it costs in bribes to get pervert
bars to serve rum and sardine punch ???) and no-one has responded to the
ads for "I've got a big PMPP, but I dont know how to use it" in any of the
local rags. 

However,  I did find the no-show of the featured speaker to the "Commodity
Fetishism and Exteremly Post-Modern D/s" lecture at a recent Society of
Janus meeting *highly* suspicious.

Oh yeah, that and the discovery of a paper at the NSF asking for funding on
"High-G deceleration experiments on Animal subjects (bovines)" lead me to
think Kenji may still be out there somewhere ...

Ian Whitchurch

PS Ditzie says "I'm sick sick sick siiiiiick of the boooooooring discussion
here. The new head of Leeeeeeeegals Mr Threeeeee-Wood is much much much
much more fun ... he drinks like a fiiii-iiiish. An an an an weeeeeee wanna
get a head head head mounted Liiiiiiidar to point the Paw-tiddly-paw-paw to
shoot bullety-wulleteys out of the skyyyyyyy-y."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 07:47:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
>> > else too.

>>
>> They *did* do that. Not only did it blow things up, it did *something*
>> to "subspace" that made warp drives unusable in the area of effect.
>>
>> So the threat was eliminating *all* ftl travel and communication over
>> most of the galaxy. That's quite a threat to a star faring civilization.
>>
>> How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
>> that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
>> sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
>> weapon.
>
>Well, what if you detonated them in a screen formation?  This would prevent
>those pesky border  crossings, except through patrolled chokepoints.  FTL
>Comms would have to pass through these chokepoints as well, which makes
them
>great as listening posts.  You cut off a sector and you control it.
>
Aren't we thinking two dimensionally here.  What's wrong with going over it
or under it.  Does it make a ball a sector high?  Don't think it was
explained well enough...
Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 07:16:23 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: FYI - Azhanti High Lightning For Auction

The following was posted to the rec.games.frp.marketplace
newsgroup as part of an auction just starting up. I've
bought from the auctioner before; he seems reliable and
did an excellent job of packing the items I bought.

For those of you unfamiliar with it, it's a very rare
set of deckplans for the Azhanti High Lightning-class
cruiser with Supplement 5-AHL class Cruisers booklet
and a rules book and counters which allow the deckplans
to be used for miniatures-like melees. Very well done
with lots of background on this class of capital ship.

I'm not buying it because I already have two.

* QUOTE *

Lot F-1
Azhanti High Lightning
Traveller Adventure Aboard an Imperial Starship
GDW
Date: 1980
Condition: 
Box: the lid is a bit bowed and two corners are split, but no tape. 
There is some wear along the edges. It appears as if this game has been
moved around and stored a lot.  The bottom of the box is fine with one
small tear in one corner.
Contents: The maps are beautiful and look as though they have never been
opened, as do the rule booklets.  The counters are punched, but I doubt
the game was ever played as many of the counters are still attached in
rows of 4 and 5.
Minimum Bid: $40.00

* ENDQUOTE *

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 09:10:04 -0400
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: FYI - Azhanti High Lightning For Auction

I"ve got a copy in premo condition and for $40 I'll part with it too.
Never really used it just bought it for the sake of "having everything"
traveller related, I was young and single then....anyone interested let me
know, address private too dbiggs@magicnet.net.

At 07:16 AM 5/2/98 -0700, you wrote:
>The following was posted to the rec.games.frp.marketplace
>newsgroup as part of an auction just starting up. I've
>bought from the auctioner before; he seems reliable and
>did an excellent job of packing the items I bought.
>
>For those of you unfamiliar with it, it's a very rare
>set of deckplans for the Azhanti High Lightning-class
>cruiser with Supplement 5-AHL class Cruisers booklet
>and a rules book and counters which allow the deckplans
>to be used for miniatures-like melees. Very well done
>with lots of background on this class of capital ship.
>
>I'm not buying it because I already have two.
>
>* QUOTE *
>
>Lot F-1
>Azhanti High Lightning
>Traveller Adventure Aboard an Imperial Starship
>GDW
>Date: 1980
>Condition: 
>Box: the lid is a bit bowed and two corners are split, but no tape. 
>There is some wear along the edges. It appears as if this game has been
>moved around and stored a lot.  The bottom of the box is fine with one
>small tear in one corner.
>Contents: The maps are beautiful and look as though they have never been
>opened, as do the rule booklets.  The counters are punched, but I doubt
>the game was ever played as many of the counters are still attached in
>rows of 4 and 5.
>Minimum Bid: $40.00
>
>* ENDQUOTE *
> 

Dave Biggs --------------------------->dbiggs@magicnet.net
"Sauron" on FIBS, NOBS - dee_biggs on Yahoo"
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Hinlein

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 10:16:40 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Traveller Collection sale/Auction]

Thanks a lot Paul.  I sent him an e-mail on the AHL immediately.  Will
peruse the other items now.
Thanks again!

Thom (the happy camper) Harris

- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Traveller Collection sale/Auction]


>Saw this posted on the news group, thought you might be interested
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 10:24:21 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?

Thom Harris wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> Subject: Re: To tech or not to tech?
>
> >
> >Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> In mail you write:
> >>
> >> > Yes, they tend to discover more particles and beam types then anything
> >> > else too.
>
> >>
> >> They *did* do that. Not only did it blow things up, it did *something*
> >> to "subspace" that made warp drives unusable in the area of effect.
> >>
> >> So the threat was eliminating *all* ftl travel and communication over
> >> most of the galaxy. That's quite a threat to a star faring civilization.
> >>
> >> How do you think the major races in Traveller would react to something
> >> that could make jump drive unusable over whole subsectors, much less
> >> sectors or quadrants? It'd be *too* powerful to use even as a doomsday
> >> weapon.
> >
> >Well, what if you detonated them in a screen formation?  This would prevent
> >those pesky border  crossings, except through patrolled chokepoints.  FTL
> >Comms would have to pass through these chokepoints as well, which makes
> them
> >great as listening posts.  You cut off a sector and you control it.
> >
> Aren't we thinking two dimensionally here.  What's wrong with going over it
> or under it.  Does it make a ball a sector high?  Don't think it was
> explained well enough...
> Thom

  I'm talking two dimensions in the sense that I'm covering the surface area of
the federation.  Not a line but a screen.  Concidering that it only takes ONE
molecule to screw up subspace for quite a distance, a surface area border
wouldn't be that difficult. You can't go over or under that, but you can pass
through at STL speeds.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 13:47:57 -0400
From: "Rob Conley" <estar@toolcity.net>
Subject: Re: Uplift

>Then take it from the other side - arriving on a planet where a
>megacorporation does this for some other not-yet-known own profit.
>There's no legal action against it, as a prime directive in traveller is
>yet unkown, only Iolanthe stated about leaving some young cultures on
>their own.
>That sounds like a little Roswell-Alien-Conspiracy again -
>Nice adventure hooks ...


The main idea is that you are doing this not to gain a monopoly but rather
that your company is at the center of a expanding sphere of innovation. In
the short term you may not make as much money but in the long term you will
make a hell of a lot money and so will a lot of other people. Because you
have the tech database you can always stay a step or two ahead of the
competition in your core business and use the money made off of investments
to continually invest in companies that were founded with no help from you.

You could do this in a secret conspiracy manner but you could also do this
in a open conspiracy. You just have to pick the right place to start a place
that will protect your property rights.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:05:41 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

>So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this but it
>only confused the matter more for me.

The blessed virgin, of course. The description matches that of many other
beatific visions throughout history.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 11:14:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, DStar2 wrote:

> Okay, but I guess I was trying to say can it be done so as the locals
> dont know you are using higher tech vehicles - I have some players
> trying to sneak some advance vehicles onto a low tech world so as to
> have an advantage... But how do I reflect this?Will the damage ratio of
> the new TL15 "equivalent" of the TL6 vehicle withstand more damage as it
> is made with stronger material?
> 
> But I guess what the players are asking is it able to pass for the TL6
> vehicle at a glance over or even at a up touch and feel kind of thing -
> but I know if somebody scrapped the paint off or tried to scratch it or
> something it would be shown to be unusual to say the least...???

Oh, well a high-tech replica is another thing entirely...right now, I
could make a very high performance (relatively speaking) biplane that
would superficially look just like a Sopwith Camel, but would perform
considerably better.

If you insisted that your own mechanics and pilots worked with the thing,
it would be hard for someone else to see you had Kevlar fabric covering
spun composite frame members bonded with high strength epoxy, and your big
radial engine was mostly aluminum. They might notice your high performance
prop looked a bit funny and you were really picky about the grade of
gasoline (though one advantage of a radial engine is that it'll run on
crappy fuel) but if you kept people from actually cutting away at the
thing, you could keep the secret under wraps.

So long as you stuck with contemporary weaponry, they might just think you
had a very well made plane. Of course, you stick a high ROF gatling on the
thing, you'll chew up just about any opponent you meet, but a) you'll run
out of ammo really fast, and b) people will notice, and may soon copy the
principle, if not the actual design, as a gatling _is_ a simpler mechanism
and has an inherently higher ROF than a single barrel machine gun...the
drawbacks, at that TL are the higher weight of the weapon, and the
percieved primitive design. (after all, those rotating monsters were real
_old_ tech at that point in time, with Lewis, and Maxim guns)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 14:30:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu 

> >So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on this but it
> >only confused the matter more for me.
> 
> The blessed virgin, of course. The description matches that of many other
> beatific visions throughout history.

No, she's Marge Shott.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 11:41:03 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Zho Conspiracy

Smart, David wrote:
> 
> Anybody know where I can get a copy of the computer game
> "MegaTraveller 1 - The Zhodani Conspiracy"?

Hello,

I have a copy of this, somewhere. Give me the weekend plus a day to look
for it and make sure it still operates OK and then we can talk.

Jim

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 23:07:05 +0400
From: Andy Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #452

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 12:47:15 -0700 (MST)
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?
> 
> On Thu, 30 Apr 1998, StarShade wrote:
> 
> > I have a question for this group - I was wondering what significance 
> > would there be if a group of players built a tech level 6 BiPlane using 
> > tech level 15 materials? 
> > 

<snip>

> 
> OTOH, your TL-15 fighter's gonna have a hard time engaging the TL-6
> aircraft, too. There is an old SF short story, "Hawk among Sparrows",
> whose author escapes me right now(James Blish? Dean....something? comes
> vaguely to mind), about a supersonic fighter somehow
> transported back in time to WWI, where the pilot promptly tells the allies
> that he'll take out Richthoven and his flying circus.
> 
> Only there isn't enough metal in the planes of the day for his radar
> guided missles to lock on, and they don't have that lovely 1000 degree jet
> exhaust for his heat seekers to find. 
>

Not to mention that they had to rape the entire western front to get 
enought Kerosene for one single mission.......

> 
> A classic time travel story.
>

Ain't that the truth!

Andy

- - -------------------------------------------------------
Andy Long			andylong@emirates.net.ae
C/o ICL			andyl@icluae.co.ae
PO Box 7237			+971 (50) 641 8232 (Mobile)
Abu Dhabi			+971 (2) 274688 (Res/Fax)
United Arab Emirates	+971 (2) 335200 (Office)
- - -------------------------------------------
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:23:58 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 02, 1998 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?


<snipped> people will notice, and may soon copy the
>principle, if not the actual design, as a gatling _is_ a simpler mechanism
>and has an inherently higher ROF than a single barrel machine gun...the
>drawbacks, at that TL are the higher weight of the weapon, and the
>percieved primitive design. (after all, those rotating monsters were real
>_old_ tech at that point in time, with Lewis, and Maxim guns)
>
>Bruce Johnson
>University of Arizona
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
>
>Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs
>

You know Bruce, you bring up some interesting points. What about all of the
engineering developements that went through a "stall" period, where they
were ignored for x length of time until they were revived with high tech
materials and found to be BETTER that the perceived "higher" tech
replacements. A couple that come to mind are the Cunard (sic?) wing
configuration and the Catamaran hull shape. Might be an interesting avenue
to explore for "alter"tech.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 15:55:00 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED

Sat, 2 May 1998 01:55:58 +0100, SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>[Note: this is in response to Hans, is probably not worth reading, and
>>is that
>>last I have to say on the matter.  I wasn't even going to read his
>>response,
>>it might have been better had I not.]
>
><RANT>
>
>You two won't let it lie, will you?

I did.  It may be that Hans' attacks and name calling me did
provoke me to one more response than I would have.  But it
decided to make it my last response to him to end it and I
have.  I have not even read Hans' response to my last post.
Let me ask that the best way to put a final rest to this
is for others not to wade in with posts on the subject.

>I'd ask you to bury the hatchet but I suspect it would end up between
>someones shoulder blades.

>You're not going to agree (dare I mention PIRATES for a previous example),
>so please take this off the list if you must continue... at least we don't
>get the stupid 'this is the last time I'm going to post on this topic part
>34567543' then. It's like the old James Blish Star Trek books with everyone
>trying to get the last word in.
>
></RANT>

I have already unilaterally stopped.  I did let Hans get the last word.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #460
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest         Sunday, May 3 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 461



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)
Seeking Dave Nilsen
Re: Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)
Whither IRIS?
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Re: Whither IRIS?
Re: Whither IRIS? 
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd) 
Blank Subsector Maps
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Bar Trek III - the Search for Kenji
Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
FF&S-2 and the SDS's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 16:53:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

[We agree on a number of issues, but those habe been deleted
because just agreeing on things is, ironically, wasting
bandwidth.]

Sat, 02 May 1998 00:09:52 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject:
>>Which secret are you talking about?  And, in any case, that secret
>>will still be propigated the old way and the system would never
>>be built fast enough to affect something that was already being
>>propigated through the Imperium.

>  Ilelish won't build the system because Dulinor knows that a civil war
>is going to start. See the pair of two line sections above your question.

But before he kills Stephon the decision isn't in his hands
(He can only not make a locally funded government system,
he can't do anything about the technology being made available
or even being implimented with private or Imperium money).

>>One can't have it both ways.  If trade is easy to cut off because
>>jump stations are only present at certain worlds along certain
>>routes, then you also know where the enemy commerce raiders need
>>to go to attack it.  If you don't know where they will attack]
>>because jump stations are all over the place, then ships will
>>find it easy to find alternate routes.
>
>  See below for a detailed analysis. If someone on the list knows
>better, their help in discussing the issue would be appreciated.
>As it is I shall see if I can get a naval hobbyist to take a look
>at it by late next week.
>
>  Jump stations all over the place either exacerbate the case
>discussed below, or become casualties in short order.

If a comerce raider is getting to systems all over, they
are stopping commerce no matter what.  In places where
the war has gotten bad enough that virtually every system
is being hit on a regular basis, you will have to convoy
anyway.  One could then just have tankers with the convoy.
Or they could hid under the protection of planetary
defenses until the convoy shows up.  Or there may be
other responses (surely we don't want to assume the plan
is for stations to wait statically till they are destroyed
and then just give up).

Also, I'm not sure commerce raiding got that bad in
the Rebelion, but even then there would be advantages
of using the system in parts of the Imperium that weren't
being hit and use the old system in the hard hit areas.

>happy with analogies in these cases, but the image comes to
>mind of tankers holding station while U-boats check their handy
>list of locations.

And the ASW platforms also know the places to look
for the uboats.

>>>   Wait, you're simultaneously claiming that these stations won't
>>> likely cost hugely to install (see other thread). Now they're all
>>> Jump tankers, presumably the Navy's supply?
>>
>>No, I'm saying they navy will have "jump tankers" as backups, like
>>the army has pontoon bridges in case the "real" ones get knocked
>>out.

>  The Navy has tankers already tasked for fleet use, and presumably
>near the levels needed for a real war. Are the "jump tankers" you're
>referring to those ones the Navy already has or new construction?

I'm refering ones that can be built with a portion of those
resources freed up by using the cheaper shipping method everywhere
to support those areas where shipping is being hard pressed.
Of course they also might be able to just move the stations
under plantery protection until the fleet shows up.  Or
hid them on the surface of asteroid.  The fuel tanks are
clearly going to be movable (to bring the fuel from the
source) and there is not reason than the actually fuel
mechanism will be big at all.  A fleet jumping in may
have a tough time finding them if you just hide them
on the surface of a small asteroid.

>>Wait a minute.  I never said they were.  I said the cost of those
>>will depend on percieved need.  And it will.

>  Granted. However, you simultaneously claim that anti-piracy
>patrols will be too expensive to implement

I never claimed
piracy was, or wasn't, impossible.  I said it could go
either way, based on a number of factors.  One of these
is the frequency of patrols and for that the price of the
piracy they will suppress will be weighed against their
cost.   Similarly the price of having tankers for those
places where they needed can be offset by the cheaper
shipping everywhere.  (If you need to go to them
at all, they are only on possibility...)

Secondly, you are comparing wartime to peace time what
people are willing to bear in war time is different.
People are willing to pay more to keep trade routes
open in war time than they are willing to reduce
piracy from rare to non-existant.

> - even though numerous
>analyses of the canonical Trav Imperium have indicated otherwise
>(none of which were sufficiently refuted)

If you are refering to what I'm thinking of, this is just
one point of view, not a statement of fact....

>>I also said there is the issue of profiteering and shortsightedness.
>>This may, or may not, happen.  However, if you want to assume
>>that something _can't_ happen then you have to deal with it.
>>OTOH, you can assume that is will happen to support something.
>>The fact that it can go either way makes firm predictions
>>that hinge around that impossible.

>  Anything can happen, hopefully when the PC's are in proximity.
>For background purposes it's establishing the relative likelihoods
>that's relevant, i.e., if misjumping were too likely then the
>Imperium would look radically different if it existed at all, as
>others have pointed out. Malfeasance and incompetence are the
>refs friends, although Trav computers may be reliable enough to
>remove some of the fun - it should be much easier for manual
>mis-filing than for an automated system using your unique 3I-ID#.

Well, I said the piracy would be harder with jump stations.
It might even be eliminated.  But I don't think that it
is a sure thing.  There are a lot of things that could prevent
that from happening.  My _guess_ is that, at the most,
piracy will go through the sort of cyclical nature we
see in situations like this where it happens, resources
are beefed up, it becomes almost non-existant, over time
complacency sets in and budgets are cut, piracy reappears,
budgets are raised against, etc.

>>You don't.  You do have to concentrate force.  In situations where
>>one force wants to avoid confrontations (because it want's to
>>attack traders which are easier targets) getting your concentration
>>to the same place as theirs is problematic.  If you have a situation
>>where you have a better idea of the places they need to go, things
>>are easier.

>  If I have a sectors worth of warships and appropriate attachments
>of intruders and light raiders, and you have similar (see FFW) force
>(including SDB's) then a meeting between battlefleets might be a
>crapshoot, although it might take months to arrange (see the run-up
>to Trafalgar). In those months you have to protect each J-station
>against a raider force increment, using approximately that same
>force increment _fixed to that system_.

Only if you protect every single stations.  I see no reason why
anyone would need to do this.  You try and predict where the
force will go and intercept, sacrificing shipping along the
way.

>  One of us has a serious problem visualizing concentration of force.

Yeah, but who?

>  What if the new technologies consequences are intended? Again,
>I'm against the implications of drop (not demountable) tanks.

It becomes a question about whether you want to go to
a background where commercial ships leave from installations
more like Babylon 5.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 17:57:52 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Seeking Dave Nilsen

If anyone has a point of contact for B. Dave Nilsen, author of
_The_Regency_Sourcebook_ for TNE, could they please post it to me
privately?  I have a couple of questions for him about the Islands Clusters
in that supplement, now that I finally found a copy.

Thanks all,

Chris
thrash@io.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 2 May 1998 18:21:13 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Gas Giant Skimming (Was Re: A New Free Trader...)

Sat, 2 May 1998 01:28:18 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>I can see that explaining why there's so much sulfur coming off the
>surface, but I thought it was tidal heating that was keeping the core
>molten?

It is.

>> Or how about an electro-magnetic field from FF&S used as armor
>> against plasma weapons by vehicles?
>
>The stuff from the flare is more diffuse, but higher energy. Mostly
>protons moving at a fair fraction of c. Take a hell of a field to
>deflect that. And you have to worry about *where* you are deflecting it
>*to*. Remember, the field *has* to have "poles" which means that the
>direction things get deflected depends on what part of the field they
>hit.
>
>I'd think that any field that's good as shielding against flares is
>going to be useful as at least *reducing* damage from particle beams,
>as it's much the same thing.
>
>And some flares will have an x-ray hazard as well.

A good magnetic field might stop ions moving at a fair
fraction of c.  OTOH, then you have to deal with the
breaking radiation that emits.  My guess is that the
best shielding agasint solar flares will be to keep the
ship between you and the star.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 18:43:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Whither IRIS?

  I wonder what the status (if any) of IRIS will be in G:T.

  And if they do exist in some form, how do they get around
having odd ship movement patterns noticed (a la ImperialLines)
or do they have that capability?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 98 22:05:15 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

On 05/02/98 at 04:59 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
said:

>> I can accept streamlined, but *rhetorically* why hypersonic?  Surely,
>> supersonic or even transonic would do.

>Because of the speeds involved.  Surface gravities and escape velocities
>of  gas giants tend to be pretty high, so you'd want your ship to be
>moving pretty  quick when it skims if you have a low-thrust manuver drive. 
>That way, you  won't need as much delta-vee to get out alive.

Well, as I've said all along...IMTU slow skimming is possible. But if you
have a low-thrust maneuver drive and CG doesn't work the way I have it
working IMTU then you have a point.

OTOH, if CG is negating 99% of surface gravity then that 10g GG is,
effectively, a 0.1g asteriod.  A fairly low-thrust maneuver drive could
provide plenty of thrust under those circumstances to boost a ship above
the atmosphere where its stutterwarp engines can kick in. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 02 May 1998 20:30:30 PDT
From: "Charles Li" <chaslimd@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Whither IRIS?

Steve Hudson wrote:
ly-To: traveller@mpgn.com
>
>  I wonder what the status (if any) of IRIS will be in G:T.
>
>  And if they do exist in some form, how do they get around
>having odd ship movement patterns noticed (a la ImperialLines)
>or do they have that capability?
>
>

While I wouldn't presume speaking for the powers that may be, I tend to 
think that IRIS will wither as a nonentity in the GURPS:Traveller 
timeline.  Besides, to many Traveller fans, the idea of IRIS was 
ludicrous in the extreme.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:19:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Whither IRIS? 

> 
> 
> Steve Hudson wrote:
> ly-To: traveller@mpgn.com
> >
> >  I wonder what the status (if any) of IRIS will be in G:T.
> >
> >  And if they do exist in some form, how do they get around
> >having odd ship movement patterns noticed (a la ImperialLines)
> >or do they have that capability?
> >
> >
> 
> While I wouldn't presume speaking for the powers that may be, I tend to 
> think that IRIS will wither as a nonentity in the GURPS:Traveller 
> timeline.  Besides, to many Traveller fans, the idea of IRIS was 
> ludicrous in the extreme.

IRIS was rather amusing, if nobody called their bluff, you could pull off just
about *ANYTHING* in their name.  If you *DID* call their bluff, they either got
mondo-violent on ya or ran like hell.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 01:23:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd) 

> On 05/02/98 at 04:59 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> >Because of the speeds involved.  Surface gravities and escape velocities
> >of  gas giants tend to be pretty high, so you'd want your ship to be
> >moving pretty  quick when it skims if you have a low-thrust manuver drive. 
> >That way, you  won't need as much delta-vee to get out alive.
> 
> Well, as I've said all along...IMTU slow skimming is possible. But if you
> have a low-thrust maneuver drive and CG doesn't work the way I have it
> working IMTU then you have a point.

Depends.  How does CG work IYTU?
 
> OTOH, if CG is negating 99% of surface gravity then that 10g GG is,
> effectively, a 0.1g asteriod.  A fairly low-thrust maneuver drive could
> provide plenty of thrust under those circumstances to boost a ship above
> the atmosphere where its stutterwarp engines can kick in. ;->

Building a CG unit that'll negate a 99.9m/s accelleration is gonna be costly.  
Powering it is gonna be moreso.  Remember the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, and 
that this *isn't* Trek.  <ducking>  Ain't no free lunches here...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 02:56:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Blank Subsector Maps

Hey, who's got that black subsector map with the white lines on it?

I *used* to have one but I can't find it anymore.  Just need a URL.

Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 98 02:47:51 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

On 05/03/98 at 01:23 AM,  "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
said:

>Depends.  How does CG work IYTU?

Pretty much straight out of FFS/TNE, IMTU.
 
>> OTOH, if CG is negating 99% of surface gravity then that 10g GG is,
>> effectively, a 0.1g asteroid.  A fairly low-thrust maneuver drive could
>> provide plenty of thrust under those circumstances to boost a ship above
>> the atmosphere where its stutterwarp engines can kick in. ;->

>Building a CG unit that'll negate a 99.9m/s accelleration is gonna be
>costly.   Powering it is gonna be moreso.  

Hum, let's see...FFS, p75 High Efficiency CG (12) -- 0.1MW/dt; 0.03Mcr/dt. 

So, a 200dt Free Trader's CG requires 20MW and costs 6Mcr.  The trade off
is with the lift only TNE CG you need another thrust agency in addition to
the CG.

[BTW, GURPS Vehicles gives similar numbers...a little more power, but
somewhat cheaper.]

I won't argue whether the numbers generated by FFS are, or are not,
accurate seeing as we don't have any working CG's to compare them against.
Anyway if your TU uses a different method of CG then more power to
you...pun intended. ;->

>Remember the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics, and  that this *isn't* Trek.  <ducking>  

Don't go talking dirty now! ;->  


Eris,
    the Heretic
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Apr 1998 01:55:59 -0700
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

At 07:24 PM 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>
>And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
>
>Bloo
>
>
>

I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes be
bought?  I'm a first time home-buyer looking to buy a house there.  Also,
what help programs are available there for helping first timers?

ObTrav - Isn't it funny how our PC's never have these little annoying
problems?  :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:38:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> You know Bruce, you bring up some interesting points. What about all of the
> engineering developements that went through a "stall" period, where they
> were ignored for x length of time until they were revived with high tech
> materials and found to be BETTER that the perceived "higher" tech
> replacements. A couple that come to mind are the Cunard (sic?) wing
> configuration and the Catamaran hull shape. Might be an interesting avenue
> to explore for "alter"tech.

"Canard" wing. 

Would you believe that the point-contact transistor was patented around
1905? The inventor didn't know how or why it work, just that using
*two* "cat's whiskers" on a "crystal detector" set up in a certain way
worked *lots* better. Since they had no idea what was happening, it got
dropped when tubes were developed. (A radio magazine I used to read
printed part of the patent, which a reader had stumbled over).

Another one that's been brought up before is the things you can do with
lower tech tools and materials if you have higher tech knowledge.
Electroplating appears to have been *accidentally* discovered about the
time writing was a hot new invention. :-) And then lost again.

For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.

And hot air balloons and gliders are well within the ability of Roman
craftsman, if you give them a design. Observation balloons would be a
*decisive* advantage for any decent Roman general. 

Teach them to make simple telescopes, and set up semaphore telegraphs
alongside the Roman roads. Suddenly messages can cross the Empire in
*hours* instead of weeks. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:53:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bar Trek III - the Search for Kenji

In mail you write:

> Ian Whitchurch
>
> PS Ditzie says "I'm sick sick sick siiiiiick of the boooooooring discussion
> here. The new head of Leeeeeeeegals Mr Threeeeee-Wood is much much much
> much more fun ... he drinks like a fiiii-iiiish. An an an an weeeeeee wanna
> get a head head head mounted Liiiiiiidar to point the Paw-tiddly-paw-paw to
> shoot bullety-wulleteys out of the skyyyyyyy-y."

Point Ditzie at the message I forwarded from alt.callahans. She ought
to find the gauss popcorn popper rifle described therein to be amusing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 00:32:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fourth Imperium Milieu

In mail you write:

> So what the heck is the Empress Anyway?  There was another post on
> this but it only confused the matter more for me.

My apologies. I'd intended that post as a spoof of some of the sillier
things we've done on the list in the past. I had expected that (like
the last time the subject came up) there'd be several *detailed posts
on what was actually published on the subject (not much).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:54:43 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 12:38 AM 03/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> You know Bruce, you bring up some interesting points. What about all of the
>> engineering developements that went through a "stall" period, where they
>> were ignored for x length of time until they were revived with high tech
>> materials and found to be BETTER that the perceived "higher" tech
>> replacements. A couple that come to mind are the Cunard (sic?) wing
>> configuration and the Catamaran hull shape. Might be an interesting avenue
>> to explore for "alter"tech.
>
>"Canard" wing. 
>
>Would you believe that the point-contact transistor was patented around
>1905? The inventor didn't know how or why it work, just that using
>*two* "cat's whiskers" on a "crystal detector" set up in a certain way
>worked *lots* better. Since they had no idea what was happening, it got
>dropped when tubes were developed. (A radio magazine I used to read
>printed part of the patent, which a reader had stumbled over).
>
>Another one that's been brought up before is the things you can do with
>lower tech tools and materials if you have higher tech knowledge.
>Electroplating appears to have been *accidentally* discovered about the
>time writing was a hot new invention. :-) And then lost again.
>
>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>
>And hot air balloons and gliders are well within the ability of Roman
>craftsman, if you give them a design. Observation balloons would be a
>*decisive* advantage for any decent Roman general. 
>
>Teach them to make simple telescopes, and set up semaphore telegraphs
>alongside the Roman roads. Suddenly messages can cross the Empire in
>*hours* instead of weeks. 

This reminds me of a paper my old Classics lecturer once wrote. His
specialisation was Imperial Roman military intelligence, and he wrote this
paper on Roman mapping, and it's effects on their military thinking. The
gist of it was that the Romans drew maps of their roads, with the towns
they past marked out according to how long it took to get from one to
another. This meant that they devloped a very linear thought pattern, and
often did not see opportunities if they meant leaving the roads. If they
had had good map making and good long distance surveying technology
availible they might have lasted longer. Certainly the medieval Europeans
could have done with it.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:08:58 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:

>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.

It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
machinegun.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 08:47:49 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]


>At 07:24 PM 4/20/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>With all these Boston area TMLers, why isn't someone running a campaign?
>>
>>And don't look at me.  I'm a lousy GM.
>>
>>Bloo
>>
>>
>>
>
>I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes be
>bought?  I'm a first time home-buyer looking to buy a house there.  Also,
>what help programs are available there for helping first timers?
>
>ObTrav - Isn't it funny how our PC's never have these little annoying
>problems?  :)
>

Look up www.realestate.com and do a search.  You should be able to find
something under $200k if you search hard.  Where are you going to be
working?

Ob Trav - A new character class in the Trader category, Real Estate agent.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 08:11:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 05:08 AM 03/05/98 -0700, Douglas Berryu wrote:
>At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>
>It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
>possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>machinegun.

I'd belive in a Roman Gatling type machinegun, but not a Maxim (recoil) or
gas oprated one. Their metallurgy was good, but not that good. They
would've had real trouble making springs that were both powerful and
consistent enough to be useable. Mind you a handcranked gun such as a
Gatling would be better with blackpowder anyway, as fouling wouldn't affect
it as badly as it would affect a self powered weapon.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 16:45:05 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

Romans with firearms; agh! Roddenberry almost got that right about how
terrifying that future would have been (Of course I'm biased-I'm Jewish). Ob.
Traveller: pick a particularly nasty Empire that fell and up their Tech so
they don't.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:50:50 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: FF&S-2 and the SDS's

Has anyone recast the QSDS and SSDS to reflect the underlying numbers
of FF&S-2?
 Before anyone says "they already are" I invite another look
at the SSDS fusion powerplants for TL13-14. The most obvious error
is the one bemoaned here when the T4 version of the Azhanti High Lightning
was attempted: Surface radiator areas change drastically with rising
Tech Level, yet SSDS does not reflect it (and the QSDS does not go to
a high enough TL to matter). Power outputs look like Fusion but don't
show effects of scale efficiency (ala Fusion Plus). yada yada.

 While I'm at it, what is the unlabeled table at the bottom of page
112, left column, underneath Table 221? By its contents it depicts
powerplants of SOME sort, but what?

GypsyComet

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #461
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest         Monday, May 4 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 462



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

T4.1 and the SDS's
Freelance Traveller - the Black Border Problem
[T98#461] Drop tank system implementation
IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds
Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]
Re: FF&S-2 and the SDS's
Re: Traveller site
T4.1
Lost In Space, FTL travel
Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
Re: Whither IRIS?
Pedant was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458
Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED
Re: Berthing costs
Commodore a flag rank?
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 May 1998 18:53:42 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: T4.1 and the SDS's

Marc,
 have you decided to stick with FF&S-2 as
the _basis_ for T4.1 vehicles, or are we going to struggle through
another Long Night of Design?

 Along that vein, using GURPS for the RPG part of Traveller DOES NOT
MEAN that the vehicle design system must follow suit. I LIKE the T4
suite of design systems (in theory, see my other message) and would rather not
have to learn another one.

 And for Ghuu sake, get someone who knows the theory and practice
of information presentation instead of hiring someone who just knows
Pagemaker and Quark. Please? I want to USE a design system without having
to decipher it first...


GypsyComet
(peevish because he just spent a precious day off doing just that...)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:14:53 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Freelance Traveller - the Black Border Problem

The Editor of Freelance Traveller would like to extend thanks to everybody
who helped us analyze our problem by hitting the site with as many
different browser/version/OS/etc. combinations as they could.  We looked
carefully at what we were sent, and we found...

... that there was absolutely _nothing_ consistent among the people who
reported problems and the people who didn't. <sigh> Well, we had hopes.
After some consultation with some browser experts, the only conclusion that
could be drawn was that the user-variable configuration issues were what
was causing the problem - i.e., people using strangely-sized fonts that
were outside the "normal" set (the Dragonfire version of FT was guilty of
designing around one such font), or strangely-sized windows in their
browsers (FT should look OK in 640x350 or higher, with 256 colors - below
that, we can't make any guarantees, although 16 colors _ought_ to work). 

We did find out that there are some design flaws even in the current
version of Freelance Traveller - a lot of you complained about the blue
links on the black - rightly; they're tough to see.  We've got some new
colors all picked out; the next update will reflect them.  We're also
adding a hit counter to FT; we'd appreciate it if, rather than bookmarking
individual pages from within FT, you would bookmark the FT main page
itself, and then navigate to the page you want.

One other thing: With the next update, there will be an "invisible" page
with a modified appearance.  We'd appreciate it if you would look at it,
compare it to the regular main page, and let us know which you think looks
better.  The test look _definitely_ avoids the encroachment problem that we
haven't otherwise been able to solve - but it comes with some drawbacks of
its own.  The URL will be
http://www.tightbeam.com/FreelanceTraveller/test.html, but don't expect it
to be available until after 10 May 1998 - which is when we expect to have
the next version uploaded for posting.  That version will incorporate some
of the old RICE papers, though no longer under that title.

Freelance Traveller would once again like to thank the Traveller community
for their support.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller Resource
freetrav@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:26 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T98#461] Drop tank system implementation

On Sun, 3 May 1998 18:51:17 -0400, "David P. Summers"
<summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:

>>  Ilelish won't build the system because Dulinor knows that a civil war
>>is going to start. See the pair of two line sections above your question.

>But before he kills Stephon the decision isn't in his hands
>(He can only not make a locally funded government system,
>he can't do anything about the technology being made available
>or even being implimented with private or Imperium money).

Well, that may not be strictly true in practice.  He is, after all, the
Archduke of his domain; his appointment comes from the Emperor himself; and
it's likely that the details of implementing an Imperial order are up to
him.  In essence, within his domain, he _is_ the Imperium.  And it's quite
clear that this is exactly how he (and the other Archdukes) views his
position (as is revealed by subsequent events).  It would be quite easy to
delay implementation of such a system by "commissioning a study to
determine the most effective way to proceed", for example.

>Also, I'm not sure commerce raiding got that bad in
>the Rebelion, but even then there would be advantages
>of using the system in parts of the Imperium that weren't
>being hit and use the old system in the hard hit areas.

Touchy, at best - if the new system is that much more cost-effective, it is
likely to result in the shutdown of the old system over time.  If it's not,
it will take a long time for it to get a toehold.  Look at the way the
telegraph competed with and displaced the Pony Express, and how the diesel
engine for the family automobile _didn't_ displace the gasoline engine.

Not to mention that when you displace a technology that thoroughly, there's
hell to pay to get the old system back up and running (for example, suppose
electricity became impossible to employ.  How long would it take to get the
Pony Express - or some other method of delivering mail without using
electricity - up and running?).


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 23:35:56 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds

Context: Late Third Imperium setting; call it CT.

What do you think?

1. Does the Imperium still incorporate worlds at its own option, or do the
locals have a say?

2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be members,
and others don't? (N.B. this is not a problem in the Julian Protectorate,
according to canonical material.  But the JP is not the 3I.)

3. Let us assume that a balkanized world may be part member and part not.
Does the Imperium appoint an ambassador to each nation, or one to the
entire world?

4. Certainly, the extraterritorial starport will have a feed of important
interstellar news - the TNS.  What about local news?  Does the TNS have a
reporter/reporters on-planet to do it, or will they rely on local
organizations (with their potentially biased or censored feeds)?  Will such
local feeds include news about the non-member nations?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:41:57 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston [Was - Re: older Traveller products]

Jory Earl wrote:

> I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes be
> bought?

You're kidding, right?

> ObTrav - Isn't it funny how our PC's never have these little annoying
> problems?  :)

  I occassionally like to have their funds get stolen from time to time.
Keeps them humble.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 20:01:13 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S-2 and the SDS's

GypsyComet wrote:

> Has anyone recast the QSDS and SSDS to reflect the underlying numbers
> of FF&S-2?
>  Before anyone says "they already are" I invite another look
> at the SSDS fusion powerplants for TL13-14. The most obvious error
> is the one bemoaned here when the T4 version of the Azhanti High Lightning
> was attempted: Surface radiator areas change drastically with rising
> Tech Level, yet SSDS does not reflect it (and the QSDS does not go to
> a high enough TL to matter). Power outputs look like Fusion but don't
> show effects of scale efficiency (ala Fusion Plus). yada yada.
>

I think there's an errata that says to  ignore surface area requirements for
powerplants.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 10:23:57 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller site

At 08:12 am 5/3/98 +0400, you wrote:
>Dave
>
>Your Traveller site is down at the moment. I hope there's not a long
>term problem with it?

	Having trouble with %#^%#$ FrontPage and WebPublisher--it's a long
story. Hope to get something figured out fairly soon, though.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 19:59:57 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: T4.1

Where can I get what there is ot T4.1?
- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 00:01:33 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Lost In Space, FTL travel

I saw Lost In Space the other day and I took note of the FTL drive they
used.  It had a big central core with field struts that extended from
the hull while active.  Concidering the surface area required for jump
drives, the extending strut mechanism seems like a good reason.  Does
anybody use this style of jump drive? IYTU?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 22:28:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (long)

  [I've hived off the naval strategy; what remains seems to be
the debate as to whether the jump-fuel-station technology (which
is a Bad Thing?) will be implemented fully or in a very big way
before the Rebellion (possibly because it may be very cheap or have
very few disadvantages) or might quite reasonably not have been
extensively implemented for various reasons (and thus not be any
real threat to canon for not being obviously present in MT), while
still being seen as a Bad Thing. Neither of us appear to be in
favour of B-5 type jump portals or facilities of similar effect.]

...
>>  Ilelish won't build the system because Dulinor knows that a civil war
>>is going to start. See the pair of two line sections above your question.
>
>But before he kills Stephon the decision isn't in his hands
>(He can only not make a locally funded government system,
>he can't do anything about the technology being made available
>or even being implimented with private or Imperium money).

  I suppose. I don't know what an Archdukes powers are, but if
he can't even delay it (and some of his associates must have
been told at some point that a new Ilelish revolt might be in
the offing), then an Archduke seemingly has little power.

...
>Also, I'm not sure commerce raiding got that bad in
>the Rebelion, but even then there would be advantages
>of using the system in parts of the Imperium that weren't
>being hit and use the old system in the hard hit areas.

  Seeings as trade largely stopped outside the safes, then
_something_ was wrong. Someone with a better background in
MT would have to tell me if I'm wrong in believing that
Wilds or long-distance trade was _very badly_ restricted.

...  
>>  The Navy has tankers already tasked for fleet use, and presumably
>>near the levels needed for a real war. Are the "jump tankers" you're
>>referring to those ones the Navy already has or new construction?
>
>I'm refering ones that can be built with a portion of those
>resources freed up by using the cheaper shipping method everywhere
>to support those areas where shipping is being hard pressed.

  The Third Imperium is a socialist command economy? Megacorps
saving money will donate it to the Navy to build spare Fleet
Tankers?

...
>Of course they also might be able to just move the stations
>under plantery protection until the fleet shows up.  Or

  That works only if the planet is ringed with enough firepower
to stop an Intruder (not light raiders) in the first place. Not
really cheap, but do-able. Still fails in a puff of logic if a
battlefleet passes through, however briefly: jump-link destroyed.

...
>mechanism will be big at all.  A fleet jumping in may
>have a tough time finding them if you just hide them
>on the surface of a small asteroid.

  Any ships jumping in needing fuel are now hosed. Also, 
hiding will be difficult if enemy scouts can hop around
your permeable peacetime internal security net. The jump-
station has by now clearly evolved into a tanker.

...
>>  Granted. However, you simultaneously claim that anti-piracy
>>patrols will be too expensive to implement
>
>I never claimed
>piracy was, or wasn't, impossible.  I said it could go
>either way, based on a number of factors.  One of these
>is the frequency of patrols and for that the price of the
>piracy they will suppress will be weighed against their
>cost.
 /...

  Again, without delving too deeply into piracy, the lack of
an effective internal security regime (serving as a de facto
anti-piracy force) increases the vulnerability of a jump-fuel
station system. The costs that are weighed in these decisions
are also not strictly economic, as any observation of criminal
law and its enforcement would show.

...
>Secondly, you are comparing wartime to peace time what
>people are willing to bear in war time is different.
>People are willing to pay more to keep trade routes
>open in war time than they are willing to reduce
>piracy from rare to non-existant.

  What societies are willing to pay in peacetime, or their
definitions of peace, vary widely by place and time. Some
of the previous runs at this issue have ignored that.

  The issue IMO wasn't non-existence but how rare, and I'm
concerned about setting up the Imperiums (or a pocket empires)
internal security/traffic control policies deliberately such
that they won't operate efficiently or effectively against
piracy with a reasonable use of resources. Further, the Imperium
is not a democracy. People may be more willing to render unto
Caesar than to face possible consequences.

...
>> - even though numerous
>>analyses of the canonical Trav Imperium have indicated otherwise
>>(none of which were sufficiently refuted)
>
>If you are refering to what I'm thinking of, this is just
>one point of view, not a statement of fact....

  Analyses using Traveller background info and approved (though
faulty in various opinions - certainly imperfect) economic stats
and models produced results indicating the level of Imperial
and Colonial Navy strengths. Even absurdly low allocations to
internal security patrols gave promises of exceptionally high
levels of success against stereotypical piracy. Choosing to
argue with the results is a failure to attempt to correct the
errors in the original model.

  Fixing questionable processes in TCS or Striker is a worthy goal.

...
>that from happening.  My _guess_ is that, at the most,
>piracy will go through the sort of cyclical nature we
>see in situations like this where it happens, resources
>are beefed up, it becomes almost non-existant, over time
>complacency sets in and budgets are cut, piracy reappears,
>budgets are raised against, etc.

  Sure. In a "permanently" peaceful environment you could end
up with anti-piracy policies and implementation that would
make Dilbert cringe. Certainly the Imperiums political life had
to be rotted out for the Rebellion to play out the way it did.

...
>It becomes a question about whether you want to go to
>a background where commercial ships leave from installations
>more like Babylon 5.

  I don't. Some others might. I hope they don't get what they want.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 11:36:40 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Whither IRIS?

Steven Hudson writes:

>   I wonder what the status (if any) of IRIS will be in G:T.

As I understood it, the real-life story behind IRIS is that it was
presented in CHALLENGE as a variant. Somebody didn't notice that and
used them in a TNS newsbrief. Ooops.

GDW handled that rather neatly in _Survival Margin_ where a quote from
Strephon's diary makes it clear that he had never heard of IRIS before.
In other words, in the main Traveller universe IRIS was the imaginative
creation of some world-class (galaxy-class?) con-men. Thus IRIS will not
(IMO) exist in the G:T universe. At least, not if the G:T universe don't
diverge from the main universe until Dulinor's accident.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:32:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Pedant was Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #458

eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) the heretic wrote:

>And amarin, IG may be gone, but Traveller is still alive. Marc Miller is,
>hopefully, looking for another publisher to produce his new version. In the
>mean time, Steve Jackson Games is coming out with a GURPS Traveller varient
>this summer to give all us fellow travellers more subjects to
>argue^h^h^h^h^h discuss. ;->

Eris,

That isn't entirely true... IG is still there to sell the existing
material, but won't be producing any more. Let's at least give them a
chance to sell their remaining stock and pay the money they owe to writers
like Dave G and Andy L.

FWIW I'm waiting for T4.1 eagerly too...

Incidently, I'd recommend the following other books over what Ian said:

Milieu 0 Campaign (nice timeline and background material for the start of
the Imperium).
Aliens Archive - loads of well written Minor Alien races (shame that that
print is SO BIG! but the content is excellent).
Pocket Empires - Rules for running small empires as a game, and also as
background material for roleplaying (though the game rules dominate). BTW,
no one I know of has actually run this and mentioned it to the TML. It's
kind of an economics sim.

The following should be avoided IMO:

First Survey (unless bought in the M0 Campaign). Limited usefulness in
these maps as they didn't do referee's versions.... and some data clashes
with former GDW Traveller material.
Starships - SSDS is good, but you can get it off the internet in a revised
form. The deckplans are lousy.
Missions of State - two excellent adventures (by Joe Walsh and Martin
Dougherty) but the risk are poor to lousy.
The Annililik Run - a scenario conceived by Core and destroyed by James
Ward. Sort of AD&D in space.

Dom


- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 10:38:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Changing the background & Jump drives FIRELIGHTERS AND MATCHES INCLUDED

Summers@Alum.MIT.edu wrote:


>I have already unilaterally stopped.

Thank you.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:12:12 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

Leonard Erickson writes:
>Me: 
>>Leonard:
>>Me:
>>>I think it's a matter of *volume*. With 20 you have twice the volume of
>>>waste to process. 
>>
>>Sure. No question. But do you think that it is realistic that the cost of
>>processing waste is directly proportional to the volume? Perhaps it is. I
>>did say "propably not", precisely because I'm not too sure about it. 
> 
>Not directly proportional. But the facilities on a ship are a *fixed*
>size. So that means that twice the load *will* take twice as much
>energy/consumables/whatever. It's not like comparing two *different*
>units each designed for the specific load size.

Except that the rules do not mention anything about life support being more
or less expensive for various numbers of passengers. (NB. I don't have
FF&S2). But, OK, we could say that the rules assume that all PC ships are
roughly the same size...

BTW. there are some figures in an early JTAS (#3 I think; it was
about belt mining) that makes life support for spaceships less than for
starships. Go figure...

Oh, and the adventure _Annic Nova_ implies that life support costs is only
half for private vessels (What it SAYS is that being a private vessel, the
PCs can get away with Cr1000 per week rather than the standard [Cr2000/jump].
Since this is exactly the same amount, I surmise that there's a misprint
involved and that the author MEANT Cr1000/two weeks.)
   
>>How much? What would be a realistic figure [for CO2 removal]?
> 
>Not sure. Depends on what sort of chemical process you are using. CO2
>will probably be done by something like lithium or calcium hydroxide.
>The reaction converts the hydroxide to carbonate. 

Assuming the most expensive (In which case we must also assume that the
Imperium requires this for of life support if you want a licence to carry
passengers (that may explain the difference in costs mentioned above).
 
>>>But the fact that you can use them when there's a misjump and you are stuck
>>>in jump for *four* weeks instead of one may make them worth it to ship
>>>owners.

I missed this the first time around. Where is it established that a misjump
can keep you in jump space for four whole weeks? I thought you were talking
about the problems of misjumping into a fuel-less environment.

>>If fast drugs have a decent shelf life, then I'd prefer an emergency load
>>of them.
> 
>Slight problem. When you get that sort of misjump, who says that you
>*know* how long it'll be before you exit jump? That makes the problem
>rather different.

Once you realize you've got a problem, you put all passengers and all
non-essential crew in fast trance, reducing the drain on life support
by 97%. A few crewmembers remain awake. When they exit jump and return to
civilization a dose of fast antidote will revive everybody regardless of
how long the trance still has to run. The extra Cr900 for the antidote is
a small price to pay compared to Cr1000/week. (Which is also the basis for
the "Fast Berth" I've proposed that costs roughly the same as a Low Berth
(about Cr1,500 for a jump-1, which is the realistic price of a jump-1 Low
Passage), but is 100% safe (Indeed, if the passenger is prepared to forego
the antidote and sleep off the fast drug, the cost becomes quite a bit lower
than a Low Berth). 

>>And there remains the problem that a passenger and a crewmember costs the
>>same even though the passenger only burdens the life support system 2/3rds
>>of the time.
> 
>Where do you get 2/3rds? Both are on board for a week (duration of jump)
>plus the time from takeoff to landing. While on planet or "in dock" at a
>high port, the life support costs for the crew are *highly* variable,
>depending on the local conditions.

The rules does not mention food and lodging while at a starport as a
standard expense for running a starship. The implication is that crew
have the option of living aboard the ship while in port (And I'm fairly
sure that I could dig up some adventures where that is also implied,
but I wouldn't swear to it without chacking first). Anyway, if you assume
that the figure is the same for both crew and passengers and that time in
port is extra, you increase the life support cost to Cr6,000/month which
only increase my incredulity.




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:43:03 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Commodore a flag rank?

Greg Smith writes:
>I think Rupert wrote:
>>>07 commodore
>>Commodore was once basically like your Fleet Captain rank - it was a
>>temporary rank given to captains in the RN to give them authority over
>>other captains (normally the more senior automatically had authority, no
>>matter what). IIRC that made it a flag rank, except that a commodore didn't
> >have a personal flag, so it wasn't really a real flag rank.
>
>I remember when the US Navy tried to give flags to commodores (who were
>captains in command of more than one ship (squadrons), but that made
>them "flag rank" when the other services had to make 07 to get a flag. 
>They of course did not like that so the plan went by the wayside....

According to Patrick O'Brian a Napoleonic era commodore did have a flag
(a 'broad pendant'), but he did not have the right to fly it when in the
presence of an admiral (The admiral might allow him to fly it as a matter
of courtesy).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 13:13:34 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

Steven Hudson writes:
>  Remember, I'm against this technology, at least until
>something fairly persuasive comes along. But I'm still
>going to address the implementation issues as accurately
>as I can.

So how about doing something constructive and try to work out how such a
system would propably be developed? Let's not discuss whether or not it
should be in the _main_ Traveller universe and instead look at how _a_
Traveller universe would look if drop tanks are a fact of life and perhaps
put some figures on it too.

If this is going to work, we'll have to agree on a set of basic premises.
Let's not discuss implications and ramifications until then. I'll start
out by listing the facts as they appear to me.
 
L-Hyd drop ships have been in service in the interior from some time
between 1090 and 1095 ["...for the last dozen years" according to a
newsbrief dated 097-1105].

General Shipyards on Regina begins making drop tanks in 1105. The tanks
are supposed to be used to support the special high-capacity liners of
Tukera.

A 'high-capacity liner' is a liner with no interior tankage. It therefore
needs drop tank facilities to support all its jumps.

Drop tanks are not reusable. [This one I don't believe in myself, but it's
what the press release says].

In early june 1106 the 800 T liner TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was lost with 217
lives (and 4 survivors) due to an explosion believed caused by the failure
of a drop tank to separate properly. Tukera lines suspended high-capacity
service to Regina for an indefinite period.

Drop tanks cost... whatever _High Guard_ says they cost (I forget).

Unefined fuel costs Cr100/T at the starport. Refined fuel costs whatever
is realistic. 

 How about it? Any takers? Any other basic premises I've missed? Any of
mine you disagree with?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:38:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>
> It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
> automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
> possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
> machinegun.

Maybe they could do gatling guns. But I'd wonder about even that. You
see, they had iron, not steel. Except for damascus steel which is just
about the *worst* thing you could use for a gun barrel. (Yes, I know
they used to use it in shotgun barrels, but those can *only* use black
powder or you wind up digging shrapnel out of your face).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:43:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> At 05:08 AM 03/05/98 -0700, Douglas Berryu wrote:
>>At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:
>>
>>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>>>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>>
>>It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>>automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
>>possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>>machinegun.
>
> I'd belive in a Roman Gatling type machinegun, but not a Maxim (recoil) or
> gas oprated one. Their metallurgy was good, but not that good. They
> would've had real trouble making springs that were both powerful and
> consistent enough to be useable. Mind you a handcranked gun such as a
> Gatling would be better with blackpowder anyway, as fouling wouldn't affect
> it as badly as it would affect a self powered weapon.

Heck, just teach them how to build a decent traverse mount for the
"automatic ballista" they actually *had*. It's problem was being *too*
consistent. It'd hit the same point with every shot. So you'd hit one,
maybe too men, they the rest would avoid going thru the point it was
hitting. 

But with a way to change the point of aim *easily* (or maybe even make
it traverse automatically back and forth) it'd be a nice weapon. Battle
dress would stop it. But as I recall the lesser types of armor in Trav,
I think any of them would get you turned into a shish-kabob. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #462
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Traveller-digest         Monday, May 4 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 463



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re:  IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds
Re: T4.1
Roman Machinegun - I think not!
A girl's best friend...
Balkanized worlds
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
Re: Lost In Space, FTL travel
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Whither IRIS?
Re: Balkanized worlds

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 00:56:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds

In mail you write:

> Context: Late Third Imperium setting; call it CT.
>
> What do you think?
>
> 1. Does the Imperium still incorporate worlds at its own option, or do the
> locals have a say?

I'd say that the locals have a say. If a low tech world wants to be
left alone, it gets amber of red zone. If it doesn't want to join, but
is okay with contact, it'll eventually join, barring *major* cultural
conflicts with doing so. So the empire can *afford* to be nice.

> 2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be members,
> and others don't? (N.B. this is not a problem in the Julian Protectorate,
> according to canonical material.  But the JP is not the 3I.)

Good question. I'd guess that all the Imperium *needs* is somebody big
enough and stable enough that if they put in a starport it won't get
overrun by nasty neighbors. So for example on Earth, they'd be willing
to put one in if the US wanted to join, and Russia and china didn't
actively object. If there were objections from somebody that
"mattered", they'd likely wait until the objectors came around. After
all, why borrow trouble?

> 3. Let us assume that a balkanized world may be part member and part not.
> Does the Imperium appoint an ambassador to each nation, or one to the
> entire world?

The Imperium doesn't appoint ambassadors *at all* to *member* planets.
To the Zhodani, to the K'kree, and other multi-world starfaring groups,
yes. *Maybe* to independent planets. Ambassadors are appointed to
represent a sovreign state to it's "equals". Not to subdivisions of
itself. 

What the Imperium may do is appoint a consul or governor or some such.


> 4. Certainly, the extraterritorial starport will have a feed of important
> interstellar news - the TNS.  What about local news?  Does the TNS have a
> reporter/reporters on-planet to do it, or will they rely on local
> organizations (with their potentially biased or censored feeds)?  Will such
> local feeds include news about the non-member nations?

I'd say your best bet is to think: TNS=CNN

So they'll have correspondents all over the place and bb"bureaus" or
"branches" on most important planets, and at least "stringers" in the
"unimportant" places. They may accept items from local media, but
they'll do their own reporting. They may even use the video and supply
their own audio if the original is too biased (in their opinion). 

But most news is of zero interest off planet, and even when it is, it's
likely to be of less interest the farther away you get. I expect that
the news will be broken down into "sections" far more than it is now. 

Think of a "menu" structured like this:

1. Stories affecting multiple empires/goverments
2. stories affecting individual empires/governments
   a. local
   b. other
      (list)
3. Stories affecting regions
   a. local
   b. other
4. stories affecting worlds
   a. local
   b. other
5. "local" stories


And all the "other" choices would have appropriate sub-menus. 

So by default you'd hear about stuff like Zhodani/Imperial trouble. And
about "Imperial" stories. Ditto for stuff in your "region" of space,
and the planet you are on, and local stuff on planet. But you can dig
up other stuff if you go to the trouble. Though the availability of
news is probably related to the size of the area affected, and how far
away it is. Trying to find out about the school board election in some
city on Regina while you are on the Solomani border is gonna take some
work. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 14:06:44 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

Jeff Zeitlin writes:
>David P. Summers:
>>>Ilelish won't build the system because Dulinor knows that a civil war
>>>is going to start. See the pair of two line sections above your question.
> 
>>But before he kills Stephon the decision isn't in his hands
>>(He can only not make a locally funded government system,
>>he can't do anything about the technology being made available
>>or even being implimented with private or Imperium money).
> 
>Well, that may not be strictly true in practice.  He is, after all, the
>Archduke of his domain; his appointment comes from the Emperor himself; and
>it's likely that the details of implementing an Imperial order are up to
>him.

I'll have to support David here. The one example of implementation of a
drop tank system we know of is in the Regina system, and that was solely
a matter for two private enterprises, Tukera and General Shipyards. Tukera
had one or more 800 T high-capacity ships serving some world within range
of Regina (but outside Regina Subsector) and contracted with General
Shipyards to begin building suitable drop tanks. Once tanks were available,
Tukera changed their schedules to have Regina included in the network.

>Touchy, at best - if the new system is that much more cost-effective, it is
>likely to result in the shutdown of the old system over time.

Very true. But the operative words are 'over time'. There is a pre-existent
fleet of normal ships which will still be worth something. While buying a
new high-capacity ship to replace a 40 year old normal ship is indisputably
cost-effective, the same may not be true if you have to dispose of a 
brand new ship. And remember that a high-capacity ship is only cost-effective
if you can find the cargo or passengers to fill it.

>If it's not, it will take a long time for it to get a toehold. 

I would suspect about 30 years for a complete changeover on the main trade
routes, but that's just a guess. BTW. if drop tanks are non-reusable (as
the canon states they are) jump-1 and perhaps jump-2 traffic will not use
them and the savings for higher-jump traffic will be somewhat lower. Only
trouble is, I find it hard to believe that drop tanks couldn't be made
reusable.

Steven Hudson writes:

>  That works only if the planet is ringed with enough firepower
>to stop an Intruder (not light raiders) in the first place. Not
>really cheap, but do-able. Still fails in a puff of logic if a
>battlefleet passes through, however briefly: jump-link destroyed.

Pure passenger liners will be screwed in that event, but high-capacity
freighters will be able to install demountable tanks and function as
old style freighters for the duration. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 15:05:07 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds

	Jeff Zeitlin wrote:

>1. Does the Imperium still incorporate worlds at its own option, or 
>do the locals have a say?

	It probably depends on the domain. I do not think that a world close 
to Core would really have a say, but if a world in the Marches, close 
to the SW of the Zhodani decided not to belong to the 3I, forcing it 
in could cause an interstellar conflict, so no way. So, prebably 
there is no established Imperium-wide policy. Thus, you can find all 
sorts of in-between attitudes. One domain (or sector)  could 
rely in economic pressure, another in military action, another not 
care at all.

>2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be
>members, and others don't?

	Uh... very good question. It raises even better ones. Suppose a 
nation is a member, and a neigboring one is not. And suppose these 
two nations wage war. If they both were imperial, the 3I would do 
nothing, except to care for the Imperial Laws of War. But, in this 
situation, the member nation could conceivably ask for assistence 
against an external threat...

>3. Let us assume that a balkanized world may be part member and part
>not. Does the Imperium appoint an ambassador to each nation, or one 
>to the entire world?

	That should depend on population. I recall a Challenge article about 
Law in the Imperium which stated that Minsitry of Justice agents were 
appointed in the following way: one per planet, plus one per 100,000 
inhabitants. It specifically stated that on Balkanized, not high-pop 
world, one agent could be responsible for several nations. This could 
be the way to proceed also por Diplomats.
	IMTU, there is usually an Imperial Ambassador, but if the planet is 
balkanized, each significative nation has an imperial Consul, all of 
them responsible before the Ambassador. Of course, if there are two 
big, important, rival nations, appointing one Ambassador to one and 
only one consul to the other could cause diplomatic problems. So, 
conceivably, under specific circumstances, there could be several 
Ambassadors to a single world (just imagine the two nations are at 
war!).

>4. Certainly, the extraterritorial starport will have a feed of
>important interstellar news - the TNS.  What about local news?  Does
>the TNS have a reporter/reporters on-planet to do it, or will they
>rely on local organizations (with their potentially biased or 
>censored feeds)?  Will such local feeds include news about the 
>non-member nations?

	As I understand it, the TNS is a private organization, that will 
care a lot about profits. And the profits of such "News Agencies" 
come from selling its services to the individual journals, 
newspapers, TV-channels and so on, i.e. the locals. The TNS will work 
as Reuters, Efe, and such agencies: appointing reporters to important 
worlds, sending reporters to where the news are, and so on. But, 
usually, you obtain the news from some middlemen: a journal, a TV 
channel... all of them would prefer there own reporters for the local 
news, is just that they cannot afford reporters for other places.
	And about the other way around, i.e. the TNS relying on local 
agencies... it seems likely, if it just happens that they have no 
reporter on planet.
	Example: In an out-of-the-way, Pop 7 planet, war erupts suddenly 
between two nations. The TNS has no permanent reporter there, but it 
sells the news  to local channels. So, the first news they get about 
th war are through this local channels, and that is what they rely to 
other worlds, immediately. But, afterwards, a reporter is sent, and 
they start relying their own news.
	So, probably the first news of a new event on a backwater planet run 
a certain risk of being biased, even the ones relied thorugh TNS... 
corrections by TNS in further reports could be likely.

	Carlos Alos-Ferrer a.k.a. the Geonee-maker

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 08:29:20 -0500 
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Re: T4.1

Robert the Lonely posted to the TML:
>
>Where can I get what there is ot T4.1?
>- --
>Robert the Lonely
>
>Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

I believe two local stores (Dallas, TX) still have some of the better
T4 books (i.e. Psionic Institutes, Milieu 0 hardback). I can confirm
if you'd like and pick them up for you. You can then reimburse me
for the cost of the book (I'll cover the shipping) and I'll mail them to
you.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:52:22 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

On Sun, 3 May 1998 18:51:17 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 03 May 1998 05:08:58 -0700
>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?
>
>At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:
>
>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>
>It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
>possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>machinegun.

I seriously doubt this. Even a Gatling type weapon requires the ability to
machine something to absolute tolerances ... and, without machine tools, the
Romans simply could not do this. No way. And that's not even discussing the
limited amount of high quality steel they were able to produce anyway.

Without something like a Steam Engine, well, no, its just not going to happen.
Even then, they are several steps away from the steps needed to make a
machinegun.

For example, it has been estimated that the Iron output of the entire Roman
Empire at its height was on the order of 2500-5000 tons per year. Steel would
have been a tiny proportion of that.

Then we need the machines to make the cartridge cases, the mercury fulminate
primers etc. No, not even close.

They would (as per De Camp's classic, "Lest Darkness Fall") be capable of
producing a cast bronze cannon easily enough, and gunpowder is even easier.
Muskets would be very crude, but a matchlock would not be beyond their
capabilities. A Flintlock would, though, I suspect ... either that, or it would
be *very* expensive.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 09:31:31 -0500 
From: "Smart, David" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: A girl's best friend...

The following was taken from an article at:
http://www.abcnews.com/sections/science/DyeHard/dye53.html

*quote*

A Star Encased in Diamond

April 29 - It's too early to know for sure, but astronomer Steve
Kawaler and his worldwide team of researchers may have found
a diamond as big as Earth. 
    The diamond, if it is one, is really a nearby star with a rather
dull name-BPM37093. 
    For several days now, large telescopes scattered across the
Southern Hemisphere have joined with the Hubble Space
Telescope in studying the star, which Kawaler believes is
encapsulated in a layer of pure crystallized carbon. 
    Here on Earth, diamonds are created deep underground by
intense heat and pressure, which crystallizes carbon atoms into
the gems adored by royalty and paupers alike.
    For three decades, scientists have theorized that a similar
process turns stars called white dwarfs into massive chunks of
crystallized carbon. That would make them giant diamonds, but
no one has been able to offer proof. 
    Kawaler's team needs at least a couple of weeks to analyze
their data, but "so far, so good," says the professor of physics and
astronomy at Iowa State University. Preliminary signals from the
star are just what the scientists expected if BPM37093 is in fact a
diamond. 
    "It's a little more massive than our sun, which is about a million
times more massive than the Earth, so it's quite a hunk," Kawaler
says. 

*end quote*

ObTrav:  A group of PCs and their starship is chartered by a scientist
to investigate "a star with riches beyond imagination". Payment will
be from their filling their cargo hold with all the riches they can
find.
When they arrive, they realize the scientist was telling the truth.
There's just one problem...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:13:41 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Balkanized worlds

Sun, 03 May 1998 23:35:56 GMT jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin) wrote:

>1. Does the Imperium still incorporate worlds at its own option, or do the
>locals have a say?

Whatever the answer to this is, it's a pretty slow process around the beginning of the second millenium. Look at the Spinward Marches: Mora was settled in 60, and a lot of 'present' Imperial territory was settled/occupied in the following couple of hundred years. Since then, nothing much has happened.

The '1100' Third Imperium doesn't seem very expansionistic - maybe because it's reached a critical mass.

Still, I think there'll be much local variation. Most planets may not be worth conquering, so the local populace have the final say. Some planets, though, may be very attractive and relatively safe to incorporate into the Imperium; in such cases I don't suppose the locals will have much say in the matter.

By 1100, I don't think there'll be many of these worlds left, as they will all have been absorbed by some large interstellar state, or exist as neutral in a balance of power between to large states.

>2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be members,
>and others don't? (N.B. this is not a problem in the Julian Protectorate,
>according to canonical material.  But the JP is not the 3I.)

IMTU a member of the Imperium is a state, defined in some way not further specified. A balkanized world will usually have several states recognized as being such, and so will be elegible as members of the Imperium. I see no reason why a complete planet has to a single member.

Another thing is this: As some facts indicate that the Third Imperium doesn't tolerate neutral worlds _within_ it's borders, it will probably neither tolerate neutral states on a balkanized world, if that world lies deep within the Imperium.

On the fringes, on the other hand, getting some states to join may eventually persuade a whole world.

>3. Let us assume that a balkanized world may be part member and part not.
>Does the Imperium appoint an ambassador to each nation, or one to the
>entire world?

Why not, what else do you do with all those nobles?

>4. Certainly, the extraterritorial starport will have a feed of important
>interstellar news - the TNS.  What about local news?  Does the TNS have a
>reporter/reporters on-planet to do it, or will they rely on local
>organizations (with their potentially biased or censored feeds)?  Will such
>local feeds include news about the non-member nations?

On major worlds or places where current events justify this, TNS will of course have one or more correspondents. On backwater worlds it will probably contract with one or more reputable news agencies as a source of information.

Remember, seen from a cosmopolitan point of view, backwater areas are _per definition_ not interesting, so why have a correspondent there? You don't need to cover that world - you just keep an eye out for the occasional sensation.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:31:06 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

Sun, 03 May 1998 23:27:26 GMT, jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>>But before he kills Stephon the decision isn't in his hands
>>(He can only not make a locally funded government system,
>>he can't do anything about the technology being made available
>>or even being implimented with private or Imperium money).

>Well, that may not be strictly true in practice.  He is, after all, the
>Archduke of his domain; his appointment comes from the Emperor himself; and
>it's likely that the details of implementing an Imperial order are up to
>him.

That would only result in the new system being present in other domains
but not in his.  It woulnd't block it Imperium wide.

>>Also, I'm not sure commerce raiding got that bad in
>>the Rebelion, but even then there would be advantages
>>of using the system in parts of the Imperium that weren't
>>being hit and use the old system in the hard hit areas.

>Touchy, at best - if the new system is that much more cost-effective, it is
>likely to result in the shutdown of the old system over time.

Well, in that case one would just adapt the new system to war affected
areas, which I feel is quite doable.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 12:47:08 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)

[I lot of stuff snipped to address only some specific remaining
issues....]
Sun, 03 May 1998 22:28:29 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>Also, I'm not sure commerce raiding got that bad in
>>the Rebelion, but even then there would be advantages
>>of using the system in parts of the Imperium that weren't
>>being hit and use the old system in the hard hit areas.

>  Seeings as trade largely stopped outside the safes, then
>_something_ was wrong.

If you look at the map, the "safes" was most of the Imeperium.
Commerce raiding was in specific areas (to some degree the
areas where stuff was being brought to the front).  Nor do
I know of any quotes that say trade "largely stopped" (there
may be, but I don't know).  There was still logistics and,
in fact, ships being impressed for logistics probably would
have more to do with stopping trade.  In any
case, the idea that trade can be stopped by sufficient
commerce raiding wasn't the point.  If you have an area
where all trade is being suppressed, I will agree that
the non-existant trade won't be converted to use new
technology.

>>I'm refering ones that can be built with a portion of those
>>resources freed up by using the cheaper shipping method everywhere
>>to support those areas where shipping is being hard pressed.

>  The Third Imperium is a socialist command economy? Megacorps
>saving money will donate it to the Navy to build spare Fleet
>Tankers?

No.  The Imperium will use it as an excuse to raise taxes, or
require megacorps to support their own ships....

>>Of course they also might be able to just move the stations
>>under plantery protection until the fleet shows up.  Or

>  That works only if the planet is ringed with enough firepower
>to stop an Intruder (not light raiders) in the first place.

Commerce raiding is, by definition, not applying sufficient
force to actually take over systems or destroy planetary
installations.  If that was true then commerce raiding
would cause massive devestation on worlds and wouldn't
be presented as affecting just trade.

>Still fails in a puff of logic if a
>battlefleet passes through, however briefly: jump-link destroyed.

I don't think that a raiding fleet passing through is suficient
to even destroy areas under plentary protection.

>>mechanism will be big at all.  A fleet jumping in may
>>have a tough time finding them if you just hide them
>>on the surface of a small asteroid.
>
>  Any ships jumping in needing fuel are now hosed.

As would any ships that were refueling at a gas giant.

>  Again, without delving too deeply into piracy, the lack of
>an effective internal security regime (serving as a de facto
>anti-piracy force) increases the vulnerability of a jump-fuel
>station system.   The costs that are weighed in these decisions
>are also not strictly economic, as any observation of criminal
>law and its enforcement would show.

I agree that all costs get weighted in.  But the precieved
need needs to be there.

>>Secondly, you are comparing wartime to peace time what
>>people are willing to bear in war time is different.
>>People are willing to pay more to keep trade routes
>>open in war time than they are willing to reduce
>>piracy from rare to non-existant.

>  What societies are willing to pay in peacetime, or their
>definitions of peace, vary widely by place and time. Some
>of the previous runs at this issue have ignored that.

Sure, which is another factor that makes blanket statements
difficult.

>>> - even though numerous
>>>analyses of the canonical Trav Imperium have indicated otherwise
>>>(none of which were sufficiently refuted)

>>If you are refering to what I'm thinking of, this is just
>>one point of view, not a statement of fact....

>  Analyses using Traveller background info and approved (though
>faulty in various opinions - certainly imperfect) economic stats
>and models produced results indicating the level of Imperial
>and Colonial Navy strengths. Even absurdly low allocations to
>internal security patrols gave promises of exceptionally high
>levels of success against stereotypical piracy. Choosing to
>argue with the results is a failure to attempt to correct the
>errors in the original model.

Yes, I was right.  This is something that is a point of view
and not fact.  Many of the assumption that those analyses
were fundamentally based on were disputted.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 14:49:23 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Lost In Space, FTL travel

I do allow some (10%) of the drive to be outside the hull of the ship and
there for take up less room.

Joe Pettit wrote:

> I saw Lost In Space the other day and I took note of the FTL drive they
> used.  It had a big central core with field struts that extended from
> the hull while active.  Concidering the surface area required for jump
> drives, the extending strut mechanism seems like a good reason.  Does
> anybody use this style of jump drive? IYTU?



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:11:19 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 12:38 AM 04/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 12:38 AM 5/3/98 PST, you wrote:
>>
>>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it, and a
>>>chemist could improve some on the *way* they made it.
>>
>> It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>> automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
>> possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>> machinegun.
>
>Maybe they could do gatling guns. But I'd wonder about even that. You
>see, they had iron, not steel. Except for damascus steel which is just
>about the *worst* thing you could use for a gun barrel. (Yes, I know
>they used to use it in shotgun barrels, but those can *only* use black
>powder or you wind up digging shrapnel out of your face).

The 'damascus' used for shotgun barrels was made by a different technique
from the damascus used in knives and swords. The shotgun barrels were made
by coiling wire around a mould and hammering it until it heat welded
together. Knife steel is made by folding and hammering and folding and
hammering and ... 'Knife damascus' is thus much better bonded than 'gun
damascus', and would probably do OK for low pressure smokeless firearms,
though the barrel wear would be ferocious. Actually good iron would be OK
for a large calibre blackpowder gatling, but it would br very expensive to
feed. The Romans would've had to hand-make all those little brass
cartridges, and even if they used the old laquered paper ones they'd still
have to have made the brass bases by hand.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 08:00:38 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 12:43 AM 04/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> I'd belive in a Roman Gatling type machinegun, but not a Maxim (recoil) or
>> gas oprated one. Their metallurgy was good, but not that good. They
>> would've had real trouble making springs that were both powerful and
>> consistent enough to be useable. Mind you a handcranked gun such as a
>> Gatling would be better with blackpowder anyway, as fouling wouldn't affect
>> it as badly as it would affect a self powered weapon.
>
>Heck, just teach them how to build a decent traverse mount for the
>"automatic ballista" they actually *had*. It's problem was being *too*
>consistent. It'd hit the same point with every shot. So you'd hit one,
>maybe too men, they the rest would avoid going thru the point it was
>hitting. 
>
>But with a way to change the point of aim *easily* (or maybe even make
>it traverse automatically back and forth) it'd be a nice weapon. Battle
>dress would stop it. But as I recall the lesser types of armor in Trav,
>I think any of them would get you turned into a shish-kabob. :-)

Besides in TNE and T4 the blunt trauma from even a small ballista would
really tickle.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 23:27:36 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Whither IRIS?

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> As I understood it, the real-life story behind IRIS is that it was
> presented in CHALLENGE as a variant. 

Which issue of Challenge was that?
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:30:41 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Balkanized worlds

At 07:13 PM 5/4/98 +0200, Mark Seemann wrote:

>Sun, 03 May 1998 23:35:56 GMT jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
wrote:
>
>>1. Does the Imperium still incorporate worlds at its own option, or do the
>>locals have a say?
>
>Whatever the answer to this is, it's a pretty slow process around the
>beginning of the second millenium. Look at the Spinward Marches: Mora was
>settled in 60, and a lot of 'present' Imperial territory was 
>settled/occupied in the following couple of hundred years. Since then, 
>nothing much has happened.

I imagine the Spinward Rush resulted in some worlds being hit with massive
colonization efforts (Mora and Rhylanor), and others suffering through
repeated colony failures resulting in the fairly low populations seen in
the classic era.
>
>The '1100' Third Imperium doesn't seem very expansionistic - maybe because
>it's reached a critical mass.

Being hemmed in on all sides doesn't help.  Consider that the Zhodani have
achieved their objectives with all five Frontier wars.. keeping the
Imperium paranoid and out of Zho space.

>Still, I think there'll be much local variation. Most planets may not be
>worth conquering, so the local populace have the final say. Some planets, 
>though, may be very attractive and relatively safe to incorporate into the 
>Imperium; in such cases I don't suppose the locals will have much say in the 
>matter.

For most interior worlds, it will be a fait accompli.  Surrounded by the
Imperium for dozens of parsecs, why not join?  On the edges, the question
depends on locality.  Worlds on the Solomani Rim will be under
extraordinary pressure to make a choice, whereas in the Marches or along
the trailing edge independence is a much more viable option.

>By 1100, I don't think there'll be many of these worlds left, as they will
>all have been absorbed by some large interstellar state, or exist as
neutral >in a balance of power between to large states.

Or be too small to bother with.  One thing I learned from playing 5FW was
that the vast majority of worlds are worthless.  Experiments with PE bear
this out.  They are too small to make more than a ripple in interstellar
commerce.  To put it another way, there's a reason why no US Presidential
candidate has ever made a campaign swing through Saipan and American Samoa.

>>2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be members,
>>and others don't? (N.B. this is not a problem in the Julian Protectorate,
>>according to canonical material.  But the JP is not the 3I.)
>
>IMTU a member of the Imperium is a state, defined in some way not further
>specified. A balkanized world will usually have several states recognized as 
>being such, and so will be elegible as members of the Imperium. I see no 
>reason why a complete planet has to a single member.

I would think there is some low limit for what constitutes an acceptable
member "state."  IMTU, political entities with Populations of 6 or less are
not full members of the Imperium, but rather treated much like the US
treats it's possessions.

The reasoning behind this is economic survival.  A small colony is at the
mercy of the interstellar carriers.. imagine what would happen without some
oversight.  On a balkanized world, this would protect very small states
from abuse.  Picture what would have happened if the Chinese occupation
force in Tibet was met by the 789th Marine Regiment!

>Another thing is this: As some facts indicate that the Third Imperium
>doesn't tolerate neutral worlds _within_ it's borders, it will probably
>neither tolerate neutral states on a balkanized world, if that world lies
>deep within the Imperium.

I'm curious, which facts?  Other than the seeming lack of these worlds.
I'd think that simple market pressure, coupled with the obvious advantages
of membership, would bring all but the most extreme xenophobic societies
into the Imperial fold.

>On the fringes, on the other hand, getting some states to join may
eventually persuade a whole world.

With some assistance from the IISS Intelligence Bureau...

>>3. Let us assume that a balkanized world may be part member and part not.
>>Does the Imperium appoint an ambassador to each nation, or one to the
>>entire world?
>
>Why not, what else do you do with all those nobles?

As someone has pointed out, "ambassador" is the wrong word.  A Consul might
be appointed to each member state.  The long term goal would probably be to
forge a planetary union, since that's much better for business.

>>4. Certainly, the extraterritorial starport will have a feed of important
>>interstellar news - the TNS.  What about local news?  Does the TNS have a
>>reporter/reporters on-planet to do it, or will they rely on local
>>organizations (with their potentially biased or censored feeds)?  Will such
>>local feeds include news about the non-member nations?
>
>On major worlds or places where current events justify this, TNS will of
course have one or more correspondents. On backwater worlds it will
probably contract with one or more reputable news agencies as a source of
information.

IMTU, the TNS acts like one of the wire services.  It purchases stories
from other organizations and freelance journalists.  Remember that the TNS
is the "USA Today" of Imperial news; a quick concise look at *major*
events.  A story that prompted riots and the fall of a planetary government
in the Hinterworlds might not even rate with the Spinward Marches editorial
board, whereas a more "local" (i.e., sector wide) information would be run.

>Remember, seen from a cosmopolitan point of view, backwater areas are _per
definition_ not interesting, so why have a correspondent there? You don't
need to cover that world - you just keep an eye out for the occasional
sensation.

In Larry Bond's novel, "Vortex", a reporter is sent to South Africa because
of a screw-up.. where he is caught up in a US-Cuban-RSA conflict.
Sometimes the backwaters can become *very* interesting, indeed..

- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #463
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 5 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 464



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Whither IRIS?
questions
Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
Drop tank systems in the 12th Century
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Berthing costs
Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]
Re: [TTL] Stere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 15:51:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 
 Actually good iron would be OK
> for a large calibre blackpowder gatling, but it would br very expensive to
> feed. The Romans would've had to hand-make all those little brass
> cartridges, and even if they used the old laquered paper ones they'd still
> have to have made the brass bases by hand.

I think everyone's hanging up here (oddly enough) on the High-tech-ness
of the Gatling guns of the 1800's. 

Paper wrapped cartridges would be perfectly usable in a low ROF low tech
gun like we're speaking of, heck, you could probably even figure out a
way of having the mechanism cut off a small part of the breech end of
the cartridge to make the priming charge for a matchlock.

It's going to have a ROF of only a few shots per minute, and jam often,
but even that's a long ways beyond even the late 18th century.

The big trick is to figure out how to make efficient and usable
breechloaders, as muzzleloaders are far simpler to make, but _much_ more
time consuming to reload.

I think the hangup people are having here is thinking 

Roman era machinegun = bronze age Uzi.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 11:30:05 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 03:51 PM 04/05/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>I think everyone's hanging up here (oddly enough) on the High-tech-ness
>of the Gatling guns of the 1800's. 
>
>Paper wrapped cartridges would be perfectly usable in a low ROF low tech
>gun like we're speaking of, heck, you could probably even figure out a
>way of having the mechanism cut off a small part of the breech end of
>the cartridge to make the priming charge for a matchlock.
>
>It's going to have a ROF of only a few shots per minute, and jam often,
>but even that's a long ways beyond even the late 18th century.
>
>The big trick is to figure out how to make efficient and usable
>breechloaders, as muzzleloaders are far simpler to make, but _much_ more
>time consuming to reload.
>
>I think the hangup people are having here is thinking 
>Roman era machinegun = bronze age Uzi.

The problem is that without the brass cartridge base the breech won't seal
properly, and the escaping gases will erode the breech area very quickly,
which would quickly render the gun non-functional.


- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:55:49 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

I can testify to that. I'm a civil war reinactor, and everybody I know who
uses Sharp's carbines or rifles either had their weapon modified to use brass
cartridges (not really done till after the war - the "bufflalo Sharps"), or
bought Sharps reproductions that use brass instead of paper. BTW the 1862
Gatling used paper cartridges. It used a reall Rube Goldberg arrangement. Each
paper cartridge was placed in a steel container. This container also had the
nipple for a percussion cap. These containers were thrown into the hopper (I
assume with enough care to make sure the bullet end faced the breeches!). and
cammed into a barrel breech and the cap was ignited. The now empty container
was now cammed into the ejection port and spit out. Thus this container acted
as both cartridge case and breech. To work well, each barrel breech had to be
reamed out so that a slight misalignment would still allow a shot. Needless to
say, this weapon was a dog (although it still should have been adopted. I
shudder to think what Bobbie Lee would have done it each US regiment had one
or two tripod mounted support Gatlings). The brianics saw how much better
brass was (ala the Spencer, Henry, Burnside, etc.) and made the model 1865 a
brass cartridge weapon. This is the one we see in the cowboy movies (or it's
later cousins). Of course, this fine weapon was too late for the war.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 4 May 1998 19:48:55 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 04, 1998 6:59 PM
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?


>I think everyone's hanging up here (oddly enough) on the High-tech-ness
>of the Gatling guns of the 1800's.
>
>Paper wrapped cartridges would be perfectly usable in a low ROF low tech
>gun like we're speaking of, heck, you could probably even figure out a
>way of having the mechanism cut off a small part of the breech end of
>the cartridge to make the priming charge for a matchlock.
>
>It's going to have a ROF of only a few shots per minute, and jam often,
>but even that's a long ways beyond even the late 18th century.
>
>The big trick is to figure out how to make efficient and usable
>breechloaders, as muzzleloaders are far simpler to make, but _much_ more
>time consuming to reload.
>
>I think the hangup people are having here is thinking
>
>Roman era machinegun = bronze age Uzi.


One line of firearms that seemed to fall into a dead end (to move slightly
off of Roman machine guns) was a rifle design I saw in a magazine. It
appeared to be a revolver built into a long arm. I can't find the article so
if any of the firearms experts on the list have any infomation I'd
appriciate hearing from you. This always seemed like a good possibility for
a "repeating" rifle at a slightly lower tech that the carbine. The revolving
pistol came out some time before the repeating rifle IIRC. A six shot rifle,
even if hand loaded black powder, seems like an advantage in my book.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 19:08:10 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Re: Whither IRIS?

Volker A. Greimann wrote:
> 
> Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> > As I understood it, the real-life story behind IRIS is that it was
> > presented in CHALLENGE as a variant.
> 
> Which issue of Challenge was that?

Issue #33 has the article defining the background of IRIS.
Issue #34 has the rules for generating an IRIS character.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 03:19:22 +0100
From: inhouse@idecnet.com (inhoJi)
Subject: questions

I tried posting this yesterday, but it seems it got lost. My server
announced they had a fuse blown and all data was lost. Third attempt. Sorry
if you get multiple copies.

I have some newbie questions. Since this is probably old news for all of
you, maybe private email responses might be better for all. The problems
surface due to misinterpretation on some of the sentences in the book. I am
writing from Spain.

Character creation process: getting into college or any other academy. The
book states that if the PC has two characteristics better by two points
than the requirements to enter a learning institution, the admission is
automatic. This number, is it the DM roll (5 or less for college, for
example) or the modifiers for high Intelligence, Social Status, etc. (such
as +2 to DM if Intelligence is 8 or higher)?

Can a PC attend college more than once? There doesn't seem to be an age
limit, as in the other institutions.

After the educational period is over, the PC goes into the workforce. In
our particular case, a PC chooses to become a Rogue. He passes the
admission roll and serves for a 4-year term. After that, he fails the
Continuance roll and decides to become an Agent, which he does passing the
Admission roll with the -2 MD modifier (for changing to a second different
career). However, he fails the Injury roll and only serves a three-year
term.

When he is an Agent, can he try rolls for Comission and/or Promotion or
must he serve the FULL 4-year term to be allowed those rolls?

After he is dismissed as an Agent, he chooses to become a Rogue again after
a three year lapse. Can he try to do that, or since he was not continued
three years ago, he may not choose that line of work ever again?

If he attempts to become a Rogue again, should he roll with no penalties
(as Rogue is his first career anyway) or must he roll with a -3 modifier
(since he is switching from being an Agent)?

Thanks in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 22:43:31 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

>Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:52:22 GMT
>From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>Subject: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
....
>I seriously doubt this. Even a Gatling type weapon requires the ability to
>machine something to absolute tolerances ... and, without machine tools, the
>Romans simply could not do this. No way. And that's not even discussing the
>limited amount of high quality steel they were able to produce anyway.
...
>They would (as per De Camp's classic, "Lest Darkness Fall") be capable of
>producing a cast bronze cannon easily enough, and gunpowder is even easier.
>Muskets would be very crude, but a matchlock would not be beyond their
>capabilities. A Flintlock would, though, I suspect ... either that, or it would
>be *very* expensive.

Hello,
  I have to agree with your assessment. Further, cannon would
be the militarily most important increment of this development,
as it wasn't until the late 1600's that firearms completely
replaced infantry melee arms.

  It would have been around `85 when I had the Shriekers (A:10?)
get the basis of this technology from a particularly corrupt
player/character (your pick). That would have had some interesting
repercussions eventually.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:41:14 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Drop tank systems in the 12th Century

Well, I did some work on the whole question of drop tanks systems (or high
capacity ships, as the TNS newsbriefs call them) last night, based on the
premises I posted yesterday, and here are the results so far:

First off, I wondered what kind of ship the TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was. How
high a jump rating? To decide that I tried to decide what the other end
of its jump from Regina was. The 097-1105 newsbrief says that the new
service will link Regina with 'the interior'. This implies a whole high
capacity route stretching back through Deneb, Corridor, and Vland. I think
it plausible that the link would enter the Spinward Marches at Mora
(admittedly, I haven't examined the route back through Deneb) and that it
would go from Mora to Rhylanor. That makes jump-6 the most likely, since
that would allow a ship to go the 10 parsecs from Mora to Rhylanor in two
jumps wia Natoko, another high-population world. A jump-5 ship would have
to go through Vanejen and Vanejen don't have the facilities to manufacture
drop tanks.

[Aside: A mail contract with this ship would improve on X-boat performance
between Mora and Rhylanor by 7 weeks, at least if one accepts the official
X-boat routes portrayed on various maps of the Marches].

Anyway, I decided to assume that the TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was a jump-6
ship and design it using QSDS 1.5.


TYPE HC6 HIGH CAPACITY LINER (TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE) 

The Type HC6 High Capacity Liner is a jump-6 passenger liner with no
internal fuel tankage, usable only where drop tanks are available. 

                        Volume   Power   Cost
Hull 800 T Disk A        763.1  -218.8   34.2

BRIDGE
TL12 Civilian controls    -1.7    -1.3    9.2
TL12 Basic sensors        -0.3   -11.1    6.8
TL12 Basic Com suite      -0.0    -1.3    0.2
4 Work stations           -2.0      -      -

ENGINEERING
Jump-6 Drive             -56.0      -   235.2  1.6 
Maneuver 1G thrusters    -15.0  -210.0   52.5  0.5 
Power Plant 1200 Mw      -42.8 +1200.0  120.0  1.4 
Engineering workstations  -1.5      -      -
Jump fuel                 -0.0      -      -
Power Plant fuel         -12.8      -      -

ACCOMODATIONS            631.0          458.1

Crew:
5 large staterooms       -20.0      -     0.5
11 small staterooms      -22.0      -     0.5
132 large staterooms    -528.0    -0.2  132.2
Sickbay			  -8.0    -0.8    5.0
Cargo space              -53.0      -      -
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
                           0.0   756.5  596.3
                                       [448]

Crew:
Engineers: 3
Electronics: 1
Maneuver: 2
Command: 2
Stewards: 6
Medical: 2
 

Type HC6  High Capacity Liner

Tons: 800               Volume: 11,200          Cost: MCr448
Crew: 16                Passengers H/M: 32/100  Passengers L: 0
Cargo: 53.0             Controls: Std           TL: 12

Size rating: 8                  Jump rating: 6
Fire control rating: 0          G rating: 1 (thrusters)
                                Power plant rating: 3
                                Fuel rating: 12.8
                                Sensor rating: A1 P3 J0
                                Armor: 0        Structure: 11

Crew (and salaries): Captain (7,200), 1st Officer (6,600), Pilot (6,000), 
Astrogator (5,000), Com officer (4,000), Chief Engineer (3,300), 2 Engineers 
(6000), 2 Medics (4,000), Chief Steward (1,100) and 5 stewards (5,000).
48,200/month total.

Operating expenses (Based on 35 jumps/year and 90% utilization):

1) House rules:
                      
Crew salaries:          578,400
Crew life support:      224,000
Passenger life supp.:
    High:		504,000
    Mid:	      1,260,000    
Maintenance:            448,000    
Fuel:                23,240,000*    
Port fees:               21,000    
Misjump insurance:   15.680,000
Payments & Profit:   28,000,000
- -------------------------------    
                     69,955,400    


3150 mid, 1008 High  15,863/19,829 (M/H)

*Calculations assume Cr300/T for fuel and non-reusable drop tanks
 at Cr250,000 for a 240T tank (twin tanks assumed for reasons of
 symmetry ;-) That comes to Cr664,000 per jump of which 22% is for
 the fuel. 


2) Straight Traveller rules:

Crew salaries:          578,400
Crew life support:    1,120,000
Passenger life supp.: 8,316,000
Maintenance:            448,000    
Fuel:                23,240,000*    
Port fees:               21,000
Payments & Profit:   28,000,000
- -------------------------------    
                     61,723,400    


3150 Mid, 1008 High      13,997/17,496 (M/H)

*Calculations assume Cr500/T for fuel and non-reusable drop tanks
 at Cr250,000 for a 240T tank (twin tanks assumed for reasons of
 symmetry ;-) That comes to Cr740,000 per jump of which 32% is for
 the fuel. 

Calculations do not include revenue from the 24 T of extra cargo space
that is left over with the average load of High passengers.

By straight Traveller rules a Mid Passage would therefore cost Cr14,000
and a High Passage Cr17,500. This is cheaper (and faster) than going by
regular jump-3 ship _provided_ you can find 4000 people per year who
want's to pay more than a year's income for an average citizen to take
the trip.

The link from Rhylanor to Regina presents its own problem. It can be done
in two jumps, but none of the possible intermediate systems are capable
of building drop tanks (unless one assumes that a system can have a Class
C starport yet still be able to manufacture drop tanks; not an entirely
unreasonable assumption, since drop tanks are far simpler than complete
spaceships), nor do any of them seem likely to generate much traffic on
their own bat. IMO most traffic would be through traffic from Regina to
Rhylanor and vice versa.

[Another aside: The ship I designed have room for 148 passengers and crew.
The TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was carrying 221 people at the time of the
disaster. Evidently Tukera allowed double occupancy of some of the
staterooms, which would give an 'Economy Passage' costing Cr8,000.] 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:00:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> One line of firearms that seemed to fall into a dead end (to move slightly
> off of Roman machine guns) was a rifle design I saw in a magazine. It
> appeared to be a revolver built into a long arm. I can't find the article so
> if any of the firearms experts on the list have any infomation I'd
> appriciate hearing from you. This always seemed like a good possibility for
> a "repeating" rifle at a slightly lower tech that the carbine. The revolving
> pistol came out some time before the repeating rifle IIRC. A six shot rifle,
> even if hand loaded black powder, seems like an advantage in my book.

This came up on the Space:1889 list a while back. There's a *reason*
why these were never very popular. One fairly common "failure mode" of
percussion revolvers is for all the chambers to go off at once. Often
due to flaming gases and powder from the intended cahmber getting into
the others (remember, the cylinder didn't fit *that* tightly!).

On a pistol, this means one round goes down the barrel, two on each
side come out of the cylinders *beside* the barrel go off downrange
right next to the barrel. And the final round slams into the frame, but
doesn't really hurt anything, other than giving a rather sharp jolt to
the whole gun.

Now picture yourself using a revolving rifle when this happens.
Remember that your off hand will be holding the stock *in front* of the
cylinder...

Four bullets will really do a number on your hand, won't they?

One of the folks on the list was a re-enactor would actually had this
happen when firing a friend's revolver at a target. You couldn't *pay*
him to use a revovling percussion rifle.

And once you go to metallic cartridges, there's no advantage to a
revolver mechanism other than the gatling.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:09:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

>>Maybe they could do gatling guns. But I'd wonder about even that. You
>>see, they had iron, not steel. Except for damascus steel which is just
>>about the *worst* thing you could use for a gun barrel. (Yes, I know
>>they used to use it in shotgun barrels, but those can *only* use black
>>powder or you wind up digging shrapnel out of your face).
>
> The 'damascus' used for shotgun barrels was made by a different technique
> from the damascus used in knives and swords. The shotgun barrels were made
> by coiling wire around a mould and hammering it until it heat welded
> together. Knife steel is made by folding and hammering and folding and
> hammering and ... 'Knife damascus' is thus much better bonded than 'gun
> damascus', and would probably do OK for low pressure smokeless firearms,
> though the barrel wear would be ferocious.

I'm not so sure. The problem is that the stuff isn't *uniformly*
strong. And you can't really make a decent sized *cylinder* or "rod" of
it. Even if you could, what would you bore it with? And since the
layers *wouldn't* be concentric, but more apt to run across the width
of the barrel, that gives natural planes for it to come apart on. 

> Actually good iron would be OK for a large calibre blackpowder
> gatling, but it would br very expensive to feed. The Romans would've
> had to hand-make all those little brass cartridges, and even if they
> used the old laquered paper ones they'd still have to have made the
> brass bases by hand.

Were they able to cast iron in that size chunk? If not, they can't make
a safe barrel. Cast bronze will do nicely for cannon though. And case
shot will deal nicely with charging barbarians.

(Trying to picture a Roman "turtle" formation that's hiding a couple of
brass or bronze cannons inside)

Oh yeah, most of us have no idea how to build *the* most important Post
Roman invention. The horse collar. That's *why* they used so much slave
labor. No way to harness the horses for the work. The "harness" for
chariots went across the horse's *neck*. Put a heavy load on, and the
horse chokes. That's why the chariots were so light, and they needed so
many horses to move them. 

Heavy wagons were moved by oxen, which are too slow moving for combat
(the way you harness *them* is different and won't work with horses).
I don't know how to design a horse collar (the insides are supposed to
be more complex than the outside looks), but I know that it's thought
to have developed from camel saddles.

Another big invention was the stirrup. That's why all the Romans used
horses for was scouts, officers mounts, and light lancers/archers. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:31:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IMTU/IYTU: Balkanized worlds

In mail you write:

>>2. On a balkanized world, what happens if some nations want to be
>>members, and others don't?
>
>         Uh... very good question. It raises even better ones. Suppose a 
> nation is a member, and a neigboring one is not. And suppose these 
> two nations wage war. If they both were imperial, the 3I would do 
> nothing, except to care for the Imperial Laws of War. But, in this 
> situation, the member nation could conceivably ask for assistence 
> against an external threat...

I'd expect the Imperium to have anticipated this when drawing up the
agreement admitting the nation(s) on the world to the Imperium. There'd
be times when they'd intervene (US defending Grenada against Cuba). And
times when they wouldn't (US *not* intervening in Czechoslovakia during
their revolt in the 50s/60s).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:21:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> At 12:43 AM 04/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>> I'd belive in a Roman Gatling type machinegun, but not a Maxim (recoil) or
>>> gas oprated one. Their metallurgy was good, but not that good. They
>>> would've had real trouble making springs that were both powerful and
>>> consistent enough to be useable. Mind you a handcranked gun such as a
>>> Gatling would be better with blackpowder anyway, as fouling wouldn't 
> affect
>>> it as badly as it would affect a self powered weapon.
>>
>>Heck, just teach them how to build a decent traverse mount for the
>>"automatic ballista" they actually *had*. It's problem was being *too*
>>consistent. It'd hit the same point with every shot. So you'd hit one,
>>maybe too men, they the rest would avoid going thru the point it was
>>hitting. 
>>
>>But with a way to change the point of aim *easily* (or maybe even make
>>it traverse automatically back and forth) it'd be a nice weapon. Battle
>>dress would stop it. But as I recall the lesser types of armor in Trav,
>>I think any of them would get you turned into a shish-kabob. :-)
>
> Besides in TNE and T4 the blunt trauma from even a small ballista would
> really tickle.

These fired what amount to heavy javelins. They were hopper fed(!) and
operated by a crank. One or at most two men on the crank.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:23:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

In mail you write:

> At 03:51 PM 04/05/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>>I think everyone's hanging up here (oddly enough) on the High-tech-ness
>>of the Gatling guns of the 1800's. 
>>
>>Paper wrapped cartridges would be perfectly usable in a low ROF low tech
>>gun like we're speaking of, heck, you could probably even figure out a
>>way of having the mechanism cut off a small part of the breech end of
>>the cartridge to make the priming charge for a matchlock.
>>
>>It's going to have a ROF of only a few shots per minute, and jam often,
>>but even that's a long ways beyond even the late 18th century.
>>
>>The big trick is to figure out how to make efficient and usable
>>breechloaders, as muzzleloaders are far simpler to make, but _much_ more
>>time consuming to reload.
>>
>>I think the hangup people are having here is thinking 
>>Roman era machinegun = bronze age Uzi.
>
> The problem is that without the brass cartridge base the breech won't seal
> properly, and the escaping gases will erode the breech area very quickly,
> which would quickly render the gun non-functional.

I've heard of a couple of designs that were used, but were clumsy (the
screw-plug breech loader used by Ferguson's men in the Revolutionary
war) and others are ideas that might work fine but would require a
*total* redesign of the flintlock mechanism, as they need to use the
space where it is. For example, if you can put wadding *after* the
charge, a bolt action would work. You'd need to move the primer pan
forward and like I said, the lock mechanism would be a *mess*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 02:40:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

In mail you write:

> BTW. there are some figures in an early JTAS (#3 I think; it was
> about belt mining) that makes life support for spaceships less than for
> starships. Go figure...
>
> Oh, and the adventure _Annic Nova_ implies that life support costs is only
> half for private vessels (What it SAYS is that being a private vessel, the
> PCs can get away with Cr1000 per week rather than the standard [Cr2000/jump].
> Since this is exactly the same amount, I surmise that there's a misprint
> involved and that the author MEANT Cr1000/two weeks.)

It's *not* the same amount. The passengers board the ship, it takes a
few *hours* to get 100 diameters out. They jump and emerge (usually) a
week later and take another few hours to get from the exit point to the
planet. Total, 1 week plus a few hours. Thus Cr2000/week.

>>>How much? What would be a realistic figure [for CO2 removal]?
>> 
>>Not sure. Depends on what sort of chemical process you are using. CO2
>>will probably be done by something like lithium or calcium hydroxide.
>>The reaction converts the hydroxide to carbonate. 
>
> Assuming the most expensive (In which case we must also assume that the
> Imperium requires this for of life support if you want a licence to carry
> passengers (that may explain the difference in costs mentioned above).

The problem is that I don't know how *much* is needed. And I don't know
enough about how such filter cansister would have to be constructed
(and thus how much they'd cost over and above the cost of the raw
materials). 

>>>> But the fact that you can use them when there's a misjump and you
>>>> are stuck in jump for *four* weeks instead of one may make them
>>>> worth it to ship owners.

> I missed this the first time around. Where is it established that a misjump
> can keep you in jump space for four whole weeks? I thought you were talking
> about the problems of misjumping into a fuel-less environment.

In the misjump rules, you roll for jump duration. 1d6 weeks. At least
in CT. And I thought someone posted that MT was the same.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:08:02 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Imperial Alphabet [?]

On Thu, 30 Apr 1998 dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> The Bilandin font.  I still have version 1.0, been waiting to see if there
> is a more up to date version before slapping on the webpage.  It's the
> writing seen in many old DGP products, most notably Strship Operators
> Manual.  The panels on the ship's interior sketches actually said things;
> the one I recall off the top of my head is the comaprtment under the
> gunner's chair contained an emergency vacc suit.

The other DGP material seemed not to be consistent to this one. I remember
the Megacorp logos in MT Journal #3, which had SuSAG and SH (Sternmetal
Horizons) written in bilanidin, but the letters are not the same as in the
font. By themselves they are consistent, as the 'S' letter is always the
same ... however I did not change them in the logo files I made.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:24:59 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

On Fri, 1 May 1998, David P. Summers wrote:

> Fri, 1 May 1998 02:31:22 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> >No. *The* Official Kilogram is a bar of platinum iridium alloy in a
> >vault in a Paris suburb. The ones elsewhere were made by measuring them
> >against that primary standard (which is done as infrequently as
> >possible to avoid wear on the standard!)
> 
> I'm fairly certain this is not longer true.  I think it is defined
> by fundamental physcial properties (like the meter and the second).

By the time, all physical units ought to be defined through physical
properties. But they're still related to the original standards, as you
try to express them by fundamental units. That's getting you still a error
difference.

Now for the Trav universe: Wouldn't it be better to use fundamental units,
such as the time light needs to cross an amount of space given by the
smallest amount found in subatomic? That would NOT be playable, but the
idea always came to me how you could exchange units with an other culture
without standards. Think of the Vilani - did they ever adapt the Solomani
units? You know HOW they are conservative ... and the Zhodani still don't
want to know about.

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #464
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 6 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 465



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Boston
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Re: A girl's best friend...
Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
re: Spin habs in combat
Re: Drop tank systems in the 12th Century
Re: [TTL] Stere
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Commodore a Flag Rank?
Trav Utils
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Small Traveller Auction
Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
Burst vs. Auto fire
IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR
Re: Trav Utils
Re: Misjumps IMTU
Jump Drives and Fuel
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Advanced vehicles? 
Re: ystems of Measurement (was Re: [TTL] Stere)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 09:32:43 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Boston

Jory Earl wrote:
> I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes be 
> bought?

You can get cheap, but  not cheap & safe....


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
There's a lot of stupidity out there. Many gun control laws seem really 
pointless. I can't have a handgun in the city, but I can have an elephant 
rifle. Guns with bayonet mounts are outlawed---as if there has been a rash 
of bayonettings! Then, when the bayonet lugs are removed, people get 
outraged when they see that it's really the same gun. You'd think they'd 
realize this proves the original law was stupid! A lot of people who 
scream for more gun control have no idea what the existing laws are like. 
           http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:33:32 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

On Fri, 1 May 1998, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> On 05/01/98 at 06:11 PM,  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) said:
> 
> > So a ship that wants to skimm
> > fuel on a gas giant, or on a planet with "bad weather" has
> > better to be hypersonic.
> 
> I can accept streamlined, but *rhetorically* why hypersonic?  Surely,
> supersonic or even transonic would do.

Another question came to me: if you build a ship hypersonic, how do the
scoops in that case work? I understand hyper- or supersonic hulls in a way
to avoid air friction, but the scoops would negate this effect, as they
have to collect the same 'air' in this case?

Staying at the 'streamlining' model, such a ship only has to be able to
fly through the atmosphere and collect fuel, not to fly at higher speed
than is useable for this task.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 14:41:16 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: A girl's best friend...

>A Star Encased in Diamond
...
>A group of PCs and their starship is chartered by a scientist
>to investigate "a star with riches beyond imagination". Payment will
>be from their filling their cargo hold with all the riches they can
>find.
>When they arrive, they realize the scientist was telling the truth.
>There's just one problem...

For some reason this sounds to me like a Vargr scientist. [Only a Vargr
would wear a diamond the size of a sun.] This implies a Vargr solution.
Scooping is right out, obviously. However, what would it take to induce a
solar flare? Maybe take a relativistic rock [sorry guys] and fling it at
the star? Maybe an anti-matter bomb? [Aren't all Vargr scientists capable
of synthesising anti-mattter? It's the only way they can get any respect.]
Maybe wait for one to occur naturally? [Do White Dwarfs flare?] If you
could induce a flare that that would, doubtless, fling enough diamond out
that they could enact a merry chase collecting it.
Slightly more drastic would be to attempt to induce the star to go nova.
You would have to wait a few years for the plasma to cool enough. Maybe the
Vargr sole (or thought he stole) a nifty Darrian item. Maybe the Darrians
are in league with him. Or maybe optical studies revealed that a nearby
white dwarf had this diamond corona and its _companion_ star was about to
go nova. He wants the PCs to jump in and play tag with the expanding plasma
(since it should have blown years ago as their observations are
light-delayed) and try to track down a diamond asteroid. Just hope it still
isn't superheated.
Another idea might be to take a iron-core asteroid and maneuver it into an
orbit that puts it on a close approach with the star. You know how there
are industrial processes to give a diamond coat to objects? Well if you put
this asteroid through a few highly eliptical orbits, then scrape off its
diamond coat.
Slightly more adventerous would be to send your ship, [or an empty hull,
for wimps] on a similar eliptical approach and diamond coat it. Gee, what
armour factor would that be? That also gives the connection to the
military-industrial complex that Vargr's seem to need to get anything done.

But, odds are it is going to be a helluva lot easier and cheaper to just
synthesise the damn diamonds (we can only improve on Cubic Zirchronium).
Not that this will deter anyone...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 15:45:46 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Phillip McGregor wrote:

> >It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
> >automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
> >possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
> >machinegun.
> 
> I seriously doubt this. Even a Gatling type weapon requires the ability to
> machine something to absolute tolerances ... and, without machine tools, the
> Romans simply could not do this. No way. And that's not even discussing the
> limited amount of high quality steel they were able to produce anyway.
> 
> Without something like a Steam Engine, well, no, its just not going to happen.
> Even then, they are several steps away from the steps needed to make a
> machinegun.

[snipped]

Hooked in here: The greeks had a steam machine for some time, but they used
it as a toy - you know, the philosophers didn't think much of experiments.
How could time have worked if they'd seen the enormous potential it had?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 16:44:14 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

>You don't need a flywheel. Set up magnets in the rotating section (lets
>call it a rotor) and in the stationary section (lets call it a stator) and
>use the whole spin assembly as a generator (like regenerative breaking) and
>convert the kinetic energy into electrical, which you then use to charge up
>your screens and HPGs in 2300....
>
>Dom

Um, how about conservation of angular momentum? Seems like you break at
least one natural law here.

Electric braking of spinning stuff on earth works by transferring the
angular momentum to big old earth.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 10:07:26 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank systems in the 12th Century

Hans Rancke wrote:

> First off, I wondered what kind of ship the TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was. How
> high a jump rating? To decide that I tried to decide what the other end
> of its jump from Regina was.

[...very logical argument follows...]

> Anyway, I decided to assume that the TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was a jump-6
> ship and design it using QSDS 1.5.

[...]

> [Another aside: The ship I designed have room for 148 passengers and crew.
> The TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was carrying 221 people at the time of the
> disaster. Evidently Tukera allowed double occupancy of some of the
> staterooms, which would give an 'Economy Passage' costing Cr8,000.] 

I was wondering the same thing back in March, and also designed a version
of the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ (see digest v1998.n270, March 12).  I made a
different assumption; that it was jump-4, same as the Long Liner (Tukera
supposedly ran routes along xboat lines; _Traveller Adventure_).  Ship's
complement was broken down as 24 crew, 48 high, 72 middle, and 80 low
for a total of 224 at full capacity.  Cargo was limited to that needed 
by high passengers. 

I also used QSDS with Book 5 drop tank rules, and the results seemed to
come out well.  I've thought about making a second pass using only High
Guard or Book 2, but I expect that it'll work in High Guard at least. 

>  at Cr250,000 for a 240T tank (twin tanks assumed for reasons of
>  symmetry ;-) That comes to Cr664,000 per jump of which 22% is for

The TNS article mentioned that the "port inboard tank" failed; so maybe
four tanks make sense?  :)  Just a thought.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 08:44:35 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: [TTL] Stere

>By the time, all physical units ought to be defined through physical
>properties. But they're still related to the original standards, as you
>try to express them by fundamental units. That's getting you still a error
>difference.
It's hard to do this with mass - you can't measure the mass of any sort of
particle or atom accurately enough to make a real mass standard out of it,
at least not yet. The big-lump-of-platinum, awkward though it is, remains
the best bet.

>Now for the Trav universe: Wouldn't it be better to use fundamental units,
>such as the time light needs to cross an amount of space given by the
>smallest amount found in subatomic?
Possibly...or a unit system in which the speed of light equals 1 (or a 
power of 10), which simplifies a lot of equations.

Another traveller question is what units Traveller technology needs that
we don't have yet. Someone on TTL suggested the "Hilbert" as the unit of
jump potential...there would be semi-fundamental units for induced gravity
fields and induced nuclear force, too.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 12:22:57 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

That was the Colt Revolving Rifle. It was a bust because it had a tendency to
gang fire all five or six chambers at once, taking off the shooter's left
hand. Handguns had this problem too, but it was accepted as there was no
chance of the shooter losing his hand, like the rifle.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:27:16 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Commodore a Flag Rank?

>Greg Smith writes:
>>I think Rupert wrote:
>>>>07 commodore
>>>Commodore was once basically like your Fleet Captain rank - it was a
>>>temporary rank given to captains in the RN to give them authority over
>>>other captains (normally the more senior automatically had authority, no
>>>matter what). IIRC that made it a flag rank, except that a commodore
didn't
>> >have a personal flag, so it wasn't really a real flag rank.
>>
>>I remember when the US Navy tried to give flags to commodores (who were
>>captains in command of more than one ship (squadrons), but that made
>>them "flag rank" when the other services had to make 07 to get a flag. 
>>They of course did not like that so the plan went by the wayside....
>
>According to Patrick O'Brian a Napoleonic era commodore did have a flag
>(a 'broad pendant'), but he did not have the right to fly it when in the
>presence of an admiral (The admiral might allow him to fly it as a matter
>of courtesy).

The Royal Navy have recently reinstated Commodore as a one star rank to go
with the other services one star ranks.  If you want I can get the article
where the Admiral of the Fleet describes why in the Broadsheet.

Nick


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- - ------------
        "Even sub-lieutenants are God's creatures,
         though it is hard to believe it sometimes."
                        Commander Ted Walker
                   "Secret Water" by Arthur Ransome

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:17:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Trav Utils

I've been playing a bit with the Trav Utils 0.96 package I pulled off the net. 
 Nice stuff.  Love the maps.

My question is, how do you do a screen dump of a map you make?  There's 
nothing in the docs that talk about this...

Thanxx.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:06:51 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 02:23 AM 05/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>> The problem is that without the brass cartridge base the breech won't seal
>> properly, and the escaping gases will erode the breech area very quickly,
>> which would quickly render the gun non-functional.
>
>I've heard of a couple of designs that were used, but were clumsy (the
>screw-plug breech loader used by Ferguson's men in the Revolutionary
>war) and others are ideas that might work fine but would require a
>*total* redesign of the flintlock mechanism, as they need to use the
>space where it is. For example, if you can put wadding *after* the
>charge, a bolt action would work. You'd need to move the primer pan
>forward and like I said, the lock mechanism would be a *mess*. 

The Elizabethans had cannon that were breech loading with a preloaded
chamber that was inserted and forced up against the back of the barrel by a
wedge, thus circumventing the seal erosion problem. They went out of favour
because of their limited power and short service life.

The thing is that none of these actions would work for a machinegun, though
some might work for a multi-barreled mount. I'm far from convinced that
Roman metallurgy was up to making the springs for reliable flintlocks, either.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:02:28 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 02:09 AM 05/05/98 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Maybe they could do gatling guns. But I'd wonder about even that. You
>>>see, they had iron, not steel. Except for damascus steel which is just
>>>about the *worst* thing you could use for a gun barrel. (Yes, I know
>>>they used to use it in shotgun barrels, but those can *only* use black
>>>powder or you wind up digging shrapnel out of your face).
>>
>> The 'damascus' used for shotgun barrels was made by a different technique
>> from the damascus used in knives and swords. The shotgun barrels were made
>> by coiling wire around a mould and hammering it until it heat welded
>> together. Knife steel is made by folding and hammering and folding and
>> hammering and ... 'Knife damascus' is thus much better bonded than 'gun
>> damascus', and would probably do OK for low pressure smokeless firearms,
>> though the barrel wear would be ferocious.
>
>I'm not so sure. The problem is that the stuff isn't *uniformly*
>strong. And you can't really make a decent sized *cylinder* or "rod" of
>it. Even if you could, what would you bore it with? And since the
>layers *wouldn't* be concentric, but more apt to run across the width
>of the barrel, that gives natural planes for it to come apart on. 

Modern barrels are made by forming them over a mold (mandrel?) often cold,
and then tempering them. It might be possible to do something similar with
hot iron. The reason I think that knife style damascus would be OK for
black powder muskets is that it is better than the shotgun style stuff.

>> Actually good iron would be OK for a large calibre blackpowder
>> gatling, but it would br very expensive to feed. The Romans would've
>> had to hand-make all those little brass cartridges, and even if they
>> used the old laquered paper ones they'd still have to have made the
>> brass bases by hand.
>
>Were they able to cast iron in that size chunk? If not, they can't make
>a safe barrel. Cast bronze will do nicely for cannon though. And case
>shot will deal nicely with charging barbarians.

You don't have to cast barrels, it's just safer. Cast bronze would probably
do OK for a musket or gatling, too.

>(Trying to picture a Roman "turtle" formation that's hiding a couple of
>brass or bronze cannons inside)
>
>Oh yeah, most of us have no idea how to build *the* most important Post
>Roman invention. The horse collar. That's *why* they used so much slave
>labor. No way to harness the horses for the work. The "harness" for
>chariots went across the horse's *neck*. Put a heavy load on, and the
>horse chokes. That's why the chariots were so light, and they needed so
>many horses to move them. 
>
>Heavy wagons were moved by oxen, which are too slow moving for combat
>(the way you harness *them* is different and won't work with horses).
>I don't know how to design a horse collar (the insides are supposed to
>be more complex than the outside looks), but I know that it's thought
>to have developed from camel saddles.

Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.

>Another big invention was the stirrup. That's why all the Romans used
>horses for was scouts, officers mounts, and light lancers/archers.

Their horses wern't very good, either.
 

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 18:10:47 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Small Traveller Auction

Hello, sorry for the ad, but I just thought I'd mention I'm having a very
small classic Traveller auction of some stuff I have duplicates of.

Adventures:

Adv 4-Leviathan - Ex
DAdv5 - Chamax Plague/Horde - VG ex for Stamp on cover
Adv 2Research Station Gamma - G

Boxsets:

Traveller Starter Set - Box and Rules F, no dice. Has Rulebook, Charts
book, and Adventure Book containing Shadows and Mission on Mithril.

You can see current bids (which are very low) at:

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/8037/bmtoauc.html


To bring this on topic, the reason I'm selling this stuff  is to buy a
video game RPG (Tactics Ogre, it's actually more of a strategy game, and
strangely enough, based on an album by Queen). I'd love to see a new
Traveller CRPG, preferably on a console system.  They really sell a lot of
copies on consoles (almost always upwards of 100,000), even for bad ones. 
Just a thought, anyway. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:40:00 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

> >Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:52:22 GMT
> >From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
> >Subject: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
> ....
> >I seriously doubt this. Even a Gatling type weapon requires the ability to
> >machine something to absolute tolerances ... and, without machine tools, the
> >Romans simply could not do this. No way. And that's not even discussing the
> >limited amount of high quality steel they were able to produce anyway.
> ...

David Drake ('The General' series) postulates a very interesting way of getting
a gatling gun - like weapon, without having the industrial capacity that you say
is necessary.

However, getting the idea in the first place is the 90% of the work!

ObTrav: I've always thought that there should be some advances (J-Drive is not a
bad example, as per Aslan) that requires a higher TL to create, but a lower TL
to produce and maintain. IMTU, I've put this into some play by allowing 1-2 TL
drop in the required production TL in the TL 8-14 range), once the desired
device has been developed and introduced.  I also like to cobble up some
'legacy' devices on occaision - primitive versions of devices described in some
of the equipment books.

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:16:06 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Burst vs. Auto fire

How have you been handling burst fire?  In the T4 rules, several
weapons can switch between single (semi-automatic) and burst fire mode
(shooting 3 rounds instead of one).  Automatic fire weapons are
covered, but not burst fire.  In other games I play, burst fire can
either do more damage to the initial target, or hit multiple targets.
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:52:15 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR

Steven Hudson asks:

>  I wonder what the status (if any) of IRIS will be in G:T.

They are not mentioned.

and Leonard Erickson saith:

> Another one that's been brought up before is the things you can do with
> lower tech tools and materials if you have higher tech knowledge.
> Electroplating appears to have been *accidentally* discovered about the
> time writing was a hot new invention. :-) And then lost again.

Well, after all, what use is it? : )

>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it

Perhaps, but the best engineers the Romans had were pretty friggin' good. The
Pantheon is still standing, pretty much intact, over 2000 years later, and not
a single bit of rebar in it. 

>And hot air balloons and gliders are well within the ability of Roman
>craftsman, if you give them a design. 

Gunpowder was easily within their chemical knowledge.

> Teach them to make simple telescopes

Well, there is the case of Nero's emerald monacle...

Legend has it that a master glassmaker presented a large transparent glass
bowl to one of the Emperors. When asked what made it special, the glassmaker
hurled it to the ground, picked it up, and _hammered out the dent_. The
emperor announced that this would put all the glassmakers out of work, and
there was enough unemployment as it was -- then had the craftsman executed.
 
Douglas Berry adds:

>It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
>possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>machinegun.

The (possibly slave) craftsmen at Alexandria that built Heron's stuff were
certainly up to the task (this is the same bunch that built the steam engine
toys everybodies heard about). They built a catapult that worked on
_compressed air pston/spring/shockabsorber thingies_  and a windlass-operated
magazine fed catapult that was rejected because it put all its bolts in the
same spot (a 20th century reconstruction actually split one bolt with another
fired from the same machine) and was thus considered only useful for defending
bridges. Of course, we are talking maybe a dozen really talented craftsmen,
who have no clue about interchangeable parts and mass production, building
each one as a one-off. 

With gunpowder, however, and the techniques used for bell/statue casting in
bronze, cannons and crude hand guns are not out of the question. And grenades,
petards, mines, etc. Would have made them even better at sieges then they
already were...

Leonard Erickson continues:
>Heck, just teach them how to build a decent traverse mount for the
>"automatic ballista" they actually *had*. 

They had a decent traverse mount. The problem was the notion of sweeping the
weapon back and forth as it was firing (a problem not limited to the Romans
BTW -- 
study the employment of 90% of the early 19th century machineguns why is it
that conservatism is inherent to the military mind?). The Romans had decent
steel (well, small quantities of it, anyway -- see any decent book on Roman
military equipment), BTW. They didn't know _why_ one batch was better than
another, or how to reproduce the good stuff consistently.

Re Stirrups: Read Equus: The Horse in the Roman World, by Ann Hyland. Nice
discussion of everything you can do _without_ a stirrup from horseback.

Sethkimmel says:

> Romans with firearms; agh! Roddenberry almost got that right about how
> terrifying that future would have been

Different sound stage...er...planet...: ) Don't get me started on Roddenberry

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:43:13 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Trav Utils

where did you get this?  I want!


Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> I've been playing a bit with the Trav Utils 0.96 package I pulled off the net.
>  Nice stuff.  Love the maps.
>
> My question is, how do you do a screen dump of a map you make?  There's
> nothing in the docs that talk about this...
>
> Thanxx.
>
> Keven
>
> --
> ==============================================================================
>           http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
> ==============================================================================
>  "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
>   the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
>   Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:33:10 -0700
From: Richard Hough <richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com>
Subject: Re: Misjumps IMTU

> Everybody seems to be assuming that an "empty hex" is *totally empty*, and
> IMTU that's not usually the case. There should be lots of dark matter
> floating around in even the emptyest hexes...and if you can find a chunk
> you should be able to refine hydrogen out of it.  Instead of starting a 700
> year journey and diving into low berths, the ship's crew should spend a few
> days searching for a nice big snowball.

While this is plausible, it completely changes Traveller military and trade
canon since there are no longer "chokepoint" systems or mains.
- --
Richard Hough
richardh@walmsley.carcinogenic.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 01:00:13 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Jump Drives and Fuel

Not to initiate the Drop Tank debate, and if this has been covered in depth
before, I apologize...

I am designing a ship at TL-21 as an exercise and potential bait for may
players.  My question relates to energy needed and weather or not a high
enough output powerplan could provide enough energy in a short enough span
of time to remove the need for jump fuel.  My thought was having two power
plants, one for normal ship activities and one only for the J-Drive and
potential emergency situations.  Considering the volume to power output of
the higher end plants, would this be possible?

I have some calculations I made everal years ago base on the references to
the Black Globe energy sinks being the J-Drive sinks, and extrapolated how
many megawatts to the cubic meter, and then created a powerplant that could
generate that level of output within fifteen minutes to half an hour.  It
seemed to be possible due to the statement I read where a ship with the
jump capacitors full could make an emergency jump if necessary.

Thanks,

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net


http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/mp  Morrow Project Site

http://www.igateway.com/clients/kurt/pj PJ the Welsh Terrier Site

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 08:43:51 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

>Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.

According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 02:57:32 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles? 

> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
> 
> According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)

It's an accurate figure.  Wish I could give you a good cite on it...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:19:34 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: ystems of Measurement (was Re: [TTL] Stere)

Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE> wrote

> without standards. Think of the Vilani - did they ever adapt the 
> Solomani units? You know HOW they are conservative ... and the Zhodani 
> still don't want to know about.

It probably had a lot to do with the Solomani conquering the Vilani and
then saying "You WILL use our systems of measurement."  The Vilani
probably complied with great reluctance.  Then a few hundred years later
the Rule of Man collapsed.  A few Vilani radicals then said "Hey, lets
change back to the traditional systems of measurement our ancestors used
for thousands of years" to which most of the other Vilani replied "Well
if the Solomani units of measure were good enough for my grandfather
they are good enough for me."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #465
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 6 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 466



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465
Re: Roman Machineguns
Advanced Vehicles
Re: Jump Drives and Fuel
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465
Military Doctrine
Re: IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
TNS Bias
Re: Advanced vehicles?
Malleable glass
Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Horse Collars
Re: Trav Utils
Re: Systems of Measurement
Re: Military Doctrine

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:33:53 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465

On Wed, 6 May 1998 04:22:02 -0400, you wrote:

>[snipped]
>
>Hooked in here: The greeks had a steam machine for some time, but they used
>it as a toy - you know, the philosophers didn't think much of experiments.
>How could time have worked if they'd seen the enormous potential it had?

Its *really* stretching things to call Hiero's engine a "steam engine" ... it
was a toy and was so constructed that it would have been impossible to get any
useful work out of it. Check some diagrams of what its thought to have looked
like.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:39:14 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Roman Machineguns

On Wed, 6 May 1998 04:22:02 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 16:40:00 -0700
>From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
>Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
>
>> >Date: Mon, 04 May 1998 13:52:22 GMT
>> >From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>> >Subject: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
>> ....
>> >I seriously doubt this. Even a Gatling type weapon requires the ability to
>> >machine something to absolute tolerances ... and, without machine tools, the
>> >Romans simply could not do this. No way. And that's not even discussing the
>> >limited amount of high quality steel they were able to produce anyway.
>> ...
>
>David Drake ('The General' series) postulates a very interesting way of getting
>a gatling gun - like weapon, without having the industrial capacity that you say
>is necessary.

Nope, its a Mitrailleuse ... a bodgy French design ... and, if you have read the
series closely, you will note that there's one scene where the CO of the Arabs
(not the crazy brother, the general) is talking to the owner of a Gunmaking
concern that has been raided by the Byzantines (er, "Civil Government") ... and
he says that it will take months to replace the *MACHINE TOOLS*.

Its always a good thing to read a book *carefully*!

And, of course, the Civil Government Rifle is basically a Lee Enfield or Mauser
clone ... also requiring machine tools to make.

Sorry, your comparison doesn't stand up ;-(

>However, getting the idea in the first place is the 90% of the work!

Nope, having the right machines is.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:40:17 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Advanced Vehicles

On Wed, 6 May 1998 04:22:02 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 02:57:32 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles? 
>
>> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
>> 
>> According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)
>
>It's an accurate figure.  Wish I could give you a good cite on it...

Penguin History of Medieval Europe, the article on Medieval Technology, IIRC.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
YES! Dark Star is now available from Hyperbooks.com!
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:24:59 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Jump Drives and Fuel

At 01:00 AM 06/05/98 -0400, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>Not to initiate the Drop Tank debate, and if this has been covered in depth
>before, I apologize...
>
>I am designing a ship at TL-21 as an exercise and potential bait for may
>players.  My question relates to energy needed and weather or not a high
>enough output powerplan could provide enough energy in a short enough span
>of time to remove the need for jump fuel.  My thought was having two power
>plants, one for normal ship activities and one only for the J-Drive and
>potential emergency situations.  Considering the volume to power output of
>the higher end plants, would this be possible?

In MT TLs above 16 gave a reduction in the fuel required.

TL    Fuel required
16    VD x 5
17    VD x 4
18    VD x 3
19    VD x 2
20    VD x 1
21+   VD x 0.5

where VD = the jump drive's volume. Rmember that MT/TNE jump drives have a
volume equal to: (Jump number + 1) x (ship's volume) / 100

I've always assumed that this is because more and more of the energy
requirements could be met through the use of antimatter conversion, etc,
but I ahve no idea how that would work, and I notice that the reduced
consumption disappeared in FF&S1.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:26:01 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

At 08:43 AM 06/05/98 +0200, Anders Backman wrote:
>>Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>>the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
>
>According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)

Not just him - I read it in a real text book about the Dark Ages, but just
which book I can't tell you.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:44:08
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465

At 04:22 AM 6/05/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 19:16:06 +0000
>From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
>Subject: Burst vs. Auto fire
>
>How have you been handling burst fire?  In the T4 rules, several
>weapons can switch between single (semi-automatic) and burst fire mode
>(shooting 3 rounds instead of one).  Automatic fire weapons are
>covered, but not burst fire.  In other games I play, burst fire can
>either do more damage to the initial target, or hit multiple targets.
>James Pearson
>jdpearson@wr.net
>

Me, I like the "for every 2 points you hit by, they get another bullet in
them" for multiple bullets into a target on burst fire, and "take a
difficulty level, and roll against everybody in a 30 degree field of fire"
for full auto.

Note that this makes combat exceedingly deadly. As it should be.

>Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 02:57:32 -0400
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles? 
>
>> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
>> 
>> According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)
>
>It's an accurate figure.  Wish I could give you a good cite on it...
>
>Keven


OK. As I have said before, Fernand Braudel is God.

Braudel, The Structures of Everyday Life : Civilisation and Capitalism vol
1 ( Collins, 1981) has a great discussion of sources of energy between the
15th and 18th century (the book should be in any half-assed university
library, and many public libraries).

Page 337 cites 75 N as being one manpower, with a horse as being 10 times
that.

Page 345 cites a horse being worth four slaves in Roman times, and having
the horse collar quadruple their productivity (incidentally whats the
current status of Lynn White's Medieval Technology and Social Change ... I
have heard rumours it has been almost totally discredited).

The only rider with using horses is you have to have food horses eat in
ready quantities (not good in very cold climates, for example). Humans are
also more flexible in the work they can do.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:47:57
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Military Doctrine

>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR
>
>They had a decent traverse mount. The problem was the notion of sweeping the
>weapon back and forth as it was firing (a problem not limited to the Romans
>BTW -- 
>study the employment of 90% of the early 19th century machineguns why is it
>that conservatism is inherent to the military mind?). 

Because up until the Twentieth Century, the military men who were executed
tended to be executed for ignoring orders and/or doctrine, not for
following it.

Successful militaries also tend to fight the last war over and over again -
for example, look at how the USN is perfectly designed for re-fighting the
Pacific War over again.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:11:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR

In mail you write:

> and Leonard Erickson saith:
>
>> Another one that's been brought up before is the things you can do with
>> lower tech tools and materials if you have higher tech knowledge.
>> Electroplating appears to have been *accidentally* discovered about the
>> time writing was a hot new invention. :-) And then lost again.
>
> Well, after all, what use is it? : )

It's suspected that it was used to plate cheap copper or brass jewelry
with gold. Thus it'd be a secret, and when the artisans pulling off the
scam died out, the secret was lost.

>>For example, while the Romans used concrete, there are a lot of things
>>a good civil engineer could teach them about *ways* to use it
>
> Perhaps, but the best engineers the Romans had were pretty friggin'
> good. The Pantheon is still standing, pretty much intact, over 2000
> years later, and not a single bit of rebar in it.

They weren't *that* good. The reason their stuff is still standing is
that it's ridiculously overbuilt. They couldn't figure the stresses and
strains, so they just built as tough as they could afford to.

Remember how the Romans dedicated bridges. The chief enginner would be
in a boat floating under the centerspan as *heavy* wagons were driven
over the bridge. If it fell down, the engineer got clobbered. :-)

> Well, there is the case of Nero's emerald monacle...
>
> Legend has it that a master glassmaker presented a large transparent glass
> bowl to one of the Emperors. When asked what made it special, the glassmaker
> hurled it to the ground, picked it up, and _hammered out the dent_. The
> emperor announced that this would put all the glassmakers out of work, and
> there was enough unemployment as it was -- then had the craftsman executed.

Probably *only* a legend, as malleability is a property of metals, and
metals *can't* be transparent (except for *very* thin films) has to do
with the electron shells of the atoms, and those are also what make it
malleable. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:08:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 1 May 1998, Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> On 05/01/98 at 06:11 PM,  kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne) said:
>> 
>> > So a ship that wants to skimm
>> > fuel on a gas giant, or on a planet with "bad weather" has
>> > better to be hypersonic.
>> 
>> I can accept streamlined, but *rhetorically* why hypersonic?  Surely,
>> supersonic or even transonic would do.
>
> Another question came to me: if you build a ship hypersonic, how do the
> scoops in that case work? I understand hyper- or supersonic hulls in a way
> to avoid air friction, but the scoops would negate this effect, as they
> have to collect the same 'air' in this case?

No, there are designs for hypersonic *jet* aircraft. The scoop designs
*use* the shockwaves to help compress the air going into the engine.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:24:12 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: TNS Bias

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>I'd say your best bet is to think: TNS=CNN

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> writes:
>	As I understand it, the TNS is a private organization, that will 
>care a lot about profits. 
[snip]
>
>	Example: In an out-of-the-way, Pop 7 planet, war erupts suddenly 
>between two nations. The TNS has no permanent reporter there, but it 
>sells the news  to local channels. So, the first news they get about 
>th war are through this local channels, and that is what they rely to 
>other worlds, immediately. But, afterwards, a reporter is sent, and 
>they start relying their own news.
>	So, probably the first news of a new event on a backwater planet run 
>a certain risk of being biased, even the ones relied thorugh TNS... 
>corrections by TNS in further reports could be likely.


This has the potential to be interesting. 

I know from personal experience that CNN reports are biased. (Other
stations are too, mind you.) If you look at the stories covered by CNN you
can see a definate pattern, so using the TNS=CNN analogy gives you a
vehicle for quietly burying information. I could see TNS, for example,
never questioning the basic philosophy of Imperial government.

IMTU I would use the TNS=Reuters analogy more, though. CNN has it's own
stations, while I see TNS as supplying a news feed to local media outlets. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:56:24 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Advanced vehicles?

>> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
>>
>> According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)
>
>It's an accurate figure.  Wish I could give you a good cite on it...
>
>Keven

Sorry if I sounded condescending or whatever it's just that Pournelle made
a big point out of this fact (that oxen are more expensive than slaves
until a good collar is invented) in "King Davids spaceship".

(A good read BTW, if you buy the standard notion of Pournelle that soldiers
in general and especially soldiers with extensive knowledge in the history
of warfare are automatically superior in to others.)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 14:59:01 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Malleable glass

>> Legend has it that a master glassmaker presented a large transparent glass
>> bowl to one of the Emperors. When asked what made it special, the glassmaker
>> hurled it to the ground, picked it up, and _hammered out the dent_. The
>> emperor announced that this would put all the glassmakers out of work, and
>> there was enough unemployment as it was -- then had the craftsman executed.
>
>Probably *only* a legend, as malleability is a property of metals, and
>metals *can't* be transparent (except for *very* thin films) has to do
>with the electron shells of the atoms, and those are also what make it
>malleable.

What about transparent aluminium from Space 1889 and Trek (;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:01:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Fuel Skimming and Streamlining (fwd)

Howdy!

Leonard wrote:
> No, there are designs for hypersonic *jet* aircraft. The scoop designs
> *use* the shockwaves to help compress the air going into the engine.
> 
And at least one implementation in service...the SR-71 does this.

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:16:07 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Steven Bonneville writes:
>Hans Rancke wrote:
>>Anyway, I decided to assume that the TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was a jump-6
>>ship and design it using QSDS 1.5.
> 
>[...]
> 
>>[Another aside: The ship I designed have room for 148 passengers and crew.
>>The TRIMKHANA-BRILLIANCE was carrying 221 people at the time of the
>>disaster. Evidently Tukera allowed double occupancy of some of the
>>staterooms, which would give an 'Economy Passage' costing Cr8,000.] 
>
>I was wondering the same thing back in March, and also designed a version
>of the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ (see digest v1998.n270, March 12).  I made a
>different assumption; that it was jump-4, same as the Long Liner (Tukera
>supposedly ran routes along xboat lines; _Traveller Adventure_).

The official X-boat lines or a plausible set of X-boat lines?

>Ship's complement was broken down as 24 crew, 48 high, 72 middle, and 80
>low for a total of 224 at full capacity.  Cargo was limited to that needed 
>by high passengers. 

Yes, of course. Low berths is a more orthodox explanation than double
occupancy. I wonder why I never even thought of them? I think it's 
because I dislike low berths and routinely operate with double occupancy
IMTU. For the official Traveller universe I suppose low berths is the
way to go. (But I'm still not using them much IMTU). As for the jump-4,
what route did you decide on for the ship to get to and from Regina?

>>at Cr250,000 for a 240T tank (twin tanks assumed for reasons of
>>symmetry ;-) That comes to Cr664,000 per jump of which 22% is for
> 
>The TNS article mentioned that the "port inboard tank" failed; so maybe
>four tanks make sense?  :)  Just a thought.

Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
from such an arrangement.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:39:53 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:

> Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
> port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
> tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
> compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
> from such an arrangement.

The benefit could simply be in the cost of shipping the tanks from their
fill-up point to the liner. If it cost 20.000 less to do this with four
tanks than two bigger tanks.  

>       Hans Rancke

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 09:52:26 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
from such an arrangement.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The only benefit I can think of for a multiple-tank system would be
fine-tuning the fuel load - give the ship the ability to carry half as
much fuel, say if one leg of the trip required a short jump. This would
especially matter if the drop tanks weren't reusable.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:09:51 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Horse Collars

At 07:56 AM 5/6/98 , Anders Backman wrote:
>>> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
>>> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.

It's a theory from 1931, originated by Richard Lefebvre des Nottes.  There
is some current controversy, but up until 1977 or so, it was textbook stuff.

Here's a web reference for those further interested:
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/~tekpages/harness.html
The basic horse harness theory, with references
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/~tekpages/texts/harncont.html
"The Great Horse Harness Controversy" wherein noted medievalists and
classicists call each other idiots

In general, I recommend these pages on medieval technology, although author
Paul Gans does have is detractors...
http://scholar.chem.nyu.edu/technology.html
Another interesting debate that is only there mentioned in passing is the
Medievalists debate over Feudalism ("the term 'feudalism' means many
different things to different people and its use often contributes more
confusion than light to a discussion.").  Facinating when compared to the
Feudal Technocracy debate here...

And one other thing.  It generally makes Medievalists see red when you
refer to their period as "The Dark Ages."  The term is considered highly
misleading.

ObTrav: How much cultural/definitional differences do you find as you
travel  between planets?  Is the slang term you used for Vargr growing up
on Ruie likely to cause a fight/riot on Regina?  Or do recordings and
travel eliminate regional/planetary cultural differences?
>--------------
Michael Croft                                "Babeheart?  What's it about?"
mailto:Croft@neosoft.com            "It's about a cute little pig that 
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft    slaughters the English" -- Freakazoid
>--------------
    

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:14:45 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Trav Utils

Where **DID** you get this??????????

Enquiring GMs want to know!!!


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM


On Tue, 05 May 1998 17:17:52 -0400 "Keven R. Pittsinger"
<jamstar@glasscity.net> writes:
>I've been playing a bit with the Trav Utils 0.96 package I pulled off 
>the net. 
> Nice stuff.  Love the maps.
>
>My question is, how do you do a screen dump of a map you make?  
>There's 
>nothing in the docs that talk about this...
>
>Thanxx.
>
>Keven
>
>-- 
>==============================================================================
>          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
>==============================================================================
> "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. 
>Pittsinger
>  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified 
>Public
>  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance
>
>
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 10:26:04 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

Peter Newman wrote:
> It probably had a lot to do with the Solomani conquering the Vilani and
> then saying "You WILL use our systems of measurement."  The Vilani
> probably complied with great reluctance.  Then a few hundred years later
> the Rule of Man collapsed.  A few Vilani radicals then said "Hey, lets
> change back to the traditional systems of measurement our ancestors used
> for thousands of years" to which most of the other Vilani replied "Well
> if the Solomani units of measure were good enough for my grandfather
> they are good enough for me."

Har! Right.

Right now the _entire world_, save one country, is metric. Even
the English have bowed and gone metric. But not the US. Why?

Industry - imagine trying to get the _entire_ US auto industry
(or any US industry) to go from 5/16" nuts (or whatever) to 4mm 
nuts. It's not just a question of stubbornness (well, it is a bit, 
but) - it's a question of spending several trillions of dollars 
changing everything.

Which, I suppose, might not be much of an impediment to the rather
conquest-crazed Solomani at the beginning of the RoM... maybe the
RoM fell because of an unsuccessful measurement system conversion
campaign.

Is everyone in the Third Imperium forced to use adjustable wrenches
I wonder?

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:32:53 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Military Doctrine

>>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>>Subject: IRIS in GURPS Traveller/SPQR
>>
>>They had a decent traverse mount. The problem was the notion of sweeping the
>>weapon back and forth as it was firing (a problem not limited to the Romans
>>BTW --
>>study the employment of 90% of the early 19th century machineguns why is it
>>that conservatism is inherent to the military mind?).
>
>Because up until the Twentieth Century, the military men who were executed
>tended to be executed for ignoring orders and/or doctrine, not for
>following it.

Well, discipline is one thing, tactics is another altogether.  That's all
pretty moot, however.  They just didn't put the guns in the right hands.

>Successful militaries also tend to fight the last war over and over again -
>for example, look at how the USN is perfectly designed for re-fighting the
>Pacific War over again.
>

This is a very good point, but I would say only somewhat correct.  The
Pacific War between the allies and Japan was basically a carrier war (yeah,
tell that to the Marines), and U.S. naval doctrine is, in fact, based
around the carrier battle group.  But without any other "serious" carriers
in potential enemy navies (in the past 40 years or so) the focus turned to
the carrier as the easily/well defended platform for action ashore.

Meanwhile, your diagnosis is essentially correct.  We're all set for the
big carrier vs. carrier battle which cannot happen, just as we were ready
for the decisive battleship encounter in WWII.

Now to bring it around to the list topic;

In Traveller, based on Milieu, it is quite easy to generate some parallels
and steal blindly from history.  Perhaps the Vilani Imperium, focussed on
their Big Battleship doctrine failed to realize the power of the small,
high manuverability fighter (maybe one that uses HePlaR rather than
Thrusters).  This is a great way to bring down the 2nd Imperium, stagnated
by traditional tactics as they are, making the same mistakes in every
battle.

Perhaps the Third Imperium at milieu 0 has a distinctive advantage of
tactics over the pocket empires of the nearby subsectors.  Not many battles
actually need to be won if the news spreads that Cleon's forces have bested
one of the more powerful pocket empires in the region ("Hey, they had a
bigger fleet than we did, there's no way we can stand up to that sort of
firepower").

It could be something as simple as arming ships with primarily energy
weapons (possible thanks to the better power source) rather than missiles.
Lasers dedicated to point defense could reduce the primary offensive
"punch" of most "barbarian" naval forces (as they might be referred to
among the Imperial Navy officers).

In my own favorite Milieu, 1110; after the Fifth Frontier War, before any
rebellion baloney, the Imperial Navy still believes in big battleships
carrying massive spinal mounts and tons of armor and secondary weapons in
balance (missiles and lasers) plus a large complement of fighters.
Fighters at that point (at least under MT combat) are inefficient use of
hull space, except as sensor platforms, and it is quite expensive, on a
per-weapon factor basis, to have all those hundreds of expensive fighters
rather than the equivalent in laser batteries mounted on the hull, with all
that armor around the computer (which, in MT, is the primary factor
affecting rolls).

It is possible that a force of non-fighter carrying raiders-perhaps in the
smallest spinal mount carrying vessel possible-could defeat in battle the
equivalnet tonnage Imp Navy ship.  Of course, and again in a parallel of
history as it relates to WWII, the Imperial productive capacity, if turned
against one enemy, could be overwhelming  to any enemy.

In fact, I've been wondering lately at the presence of Fusiona nd Plasma
turrets; they cannot be used at far range or beyond, there is no factor per
weapon advantage, they are still subject to sand, use the same tables for
to hit and damage as lasers, and take up more space.  Perhaps their
presence is related tot eh doctrine of the Imperial Navy, which used to
mount these close-range weapons in a previous war, where the technology of
the respective vessels led to close range shootouts, and where the armor
was less effective against energy weapons.

Or perhaps the energy weapon manufacturing lobby has an inordinate amount
of power.

Ponts to ponder...

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #466
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 6 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 467



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Horse Collars
Re:  Trav Utils
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Modular Cutter
Re: Advanced Vehicles 
Testing Bridges
Re: Systems of Measurement
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465
Re: Systems of Measurement
Re: energy weps
Re: Systems of Measurement
"Progress" (was Roman Machineguns)
Re: energy weps
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Horse Collars
re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Systems of Measurement
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
re: Spin habs in combat
Roddenberry?
Re: energy weps
Re: Roddenberry?
Re: Systems of Measurement

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 10:46:10 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

Jo Grant;
>Peter H. Brenton
>>Most modules, on the other hand, will need life support.
>Actually, if you remember, the standard trick when designing a ship is to
>include life support for the entire volume.

My message agreed with this view;

Pete said;
>Most modules, on the other hand, will need life support.  Probably the
>drive/bridge section will contain that, and enough excess power generation
>to cover the module's inertial comp and artificial gravity, which is also
>present in just about every module.

as I implied, I believe the inertial comp and artificial gravity would need
to be installed in the module (where desired).  I feel that these
components need to be distributed throughout the space where they are
effective rather than being concentrated in one piece of equipment in
engineering or somewhere.

So your design is basically a 50 ton ship with a 30 ton "Cargo Bay" to
represent the module?  The modules you sent out were quite efficient
enough, but there should be a savings in weight and volume of the hull of
the module that does not need to be installed on the bridge/drive section;
of course it is easy to argue that any such savings are consumed in the
structural members required to hold the module and allow operation of the
drive/bridge section independently, which are not easily represented in the
MT esign system.

By the way, the modular cutter (from the MT encyclopedia) bridge section
has no staterooms, just two adequate seats.  A long duration cutter might,
however.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:56:10 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Horse Collars

>ObTrav: How much cultural/definitional differences do you find as you
>travel  between planets?  Is the slang term you used for Vargr growing up
>on Ruie likely to cause a fight/riot on Regina?  Or do recordings and
>travel eliminate regional/planetary cultural differences?

I'd say cultural differences are much more pronounced than in the western
world today. There's no global telecommunication in Traveller and the
percentage of the population that actually travel among the stars is IMO
much smaller than that of overseas travelling today. The spreading of
recordings and whatnot could alleviate this but as TL differs so much
between planets you'll never reach a majority of the Imperial population
without cumbersome conversion into lower TL media (I'm not speaking about
CD to LP conversion but rather how to convert Quake into printed form etc).

All this makes fun roleplaying as the players cannot be shure on how
cultures think and act - Just say no to Yanks in space!

(The term Yanks in space is a widely used term for viewing the Imperium as
basically USA with Spaceships and blasters. Some people get really high
blood pressure when this term is used but as Zappa said: "I for one, care
less for them")

<if you can pinpoint the song with the above quote you win a muffin>


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:13:23 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Trav Utils

Screen dumping isn't available in the current version, however, I'll
shortly be grabbing the details of the PCX spec - look for this in v0.97

For now, I usually take a (screen) dump in Windows and paste it to my paint
program.

TRTOOLS can be found at:  

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/software.html


Slainte,


Mick Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
solomani@hotmail.com				C'ARN THE DOCKERS 1998!!!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 08:32:27 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

At 10:46 AM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:

>So your design is basically a 50 ton ship with a 30 ton "Cargo Bay" to
>represent the module?  The modules you sent out were quite efficient
>enough, but there should be a savings in weight and volume of the hull of
>the module that does not need to be installed on the bridge/drive section;
>of course it is easy to argue that any such savings are consumed in the
>structural members required to hold the module and allow operation of the
>drive/bridge section independently, which are not easily represented in the
>MT esign system.

In FFS2 this would be a 50 ton ship with a docking clamp for a 30 ton boat.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:11:00 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Modular Cutter

dberry@hooked.net wrote:

> At 10:46 AM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
> >So your design is basically a 50 ton ship with a 30 ton "Cargo Bay" to
> >represent the module?  The modules you sent out were quite efficient
> >enough, but there should be a savings in weight and volume of the hull of
> >the module that does not need to be installed on the bridge/drive section;
> >of course it is easy to argue that any such savings are consumed in the
> >structural members required to hold the module and allow operation of the
> >drive/bridge section independently, which are not easily represented in the
> >MT esign system.
>
> In FFS2 this would be a 50 ton ship with a docking clamp for a 30 ton boat.

Actually, there are a couple things I'd like to note.1. The pictures of the
cutter show a single slender hull section above the module connecting the drive
to the command section.  Clearly this would crumple without a module adding
reinforcement.  However, you could modify the design slightly with two sections,
one to either side.
2. A loading arm  would really help with the installation procedure. Since the
loading would be done in zero g's, a light arm could do the trick.  On planet
surfaces, loading could be done with large vehicles or the cutter could maneuver
over top the module for pickup.
3. You can square off the bottom of a cylinder module making a 38 dT hangar
shape. Combined with the cutter, the 8 extra dT is only a 16% increase in volume
which falls into the 20% leeway granted for drawing deck plans. This makes for
easy placement of buildings.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 13:30:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Advanced Vehicles 

> On Wed, 6 May 1998 04:22:02 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >> >Apparently a horse without a good collar produces about the same work for
> >> >the food it eats as a man does, and they're harder to look after.
> >> 
> >> According to Jerry Pournelle that is (right?)
> >
> >It's an accurate figure.  Wish I could give you a good cite on it...
> 
> Penguin History of Medieval Europe, the article on Medieval Technology, IIRC.

Thanxx, Phil.

It was 20-some ought years since I'd seen the qoute, back when I was still hangin with some SCA types after the war.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:34:25 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Testing Bridges

>Remember how the Romans dedicated bridges. The chief enginner would be
>in a boat floating under the centerspan as *heavy* wagons were driven
>over the bridge. If it fell down, the engineer got clobbered. :-)

Not just the Romans.  During teh Industrial Revolution train bridges
collapsed at a fantastic rate in England: something like 1 in 4!
[Reference: To Engineer is Human, by Polanski (I think)]  In many parts of
Canada locals wouldn't use a new bridge until the designer had stood
underneath it while a cannon was rolled over.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:37:47 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

>Industry - imagine trying to get the _entire_ US auto industry
>(or any US industry) to go from 5/16" nuts (or whatever) to 4mm 
>nuts. It's not just a question of stubbornness (well, it is a bit, 
>but) - it's a question of spending several trillions of dollars 
>changing everything.

We did that in Canada, and American companies managed to produce goods to
sell here.

You take a bit of a hit when you convert, but many companies already have
teh facilities. For a while you have to support both standards; after a
while the older one dies out, and you only have to support the newer
standard.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:58:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465

Ian or Katts wrote:

> The only rider with using horses is you have to have food horses eat in
> ready quantities (not good in very cold climates, for example). Humans are
> also more flexible in the work they can do.
> 

Funny thing that opposable thumb, upright biped thing ;-)

As for feeding 'em...one time in a D&D campaign, I decided to institute
realistic 'you have to feed your horses' rule. They started calculating
what they needed to carry with them to mount an expedition deep into an
alipine setting.

We rapidly got into an infinite expansion of: to feed the horses you
need x mules carrying y*x sacks of grain, and then to feed the horses +
x mules you need x + z mules carryinx x*y + z*y sacks. Iterate until
they figure out they have to walk in with a few pack mules in tow,
eating the ones who carry the grain as you empty their loads.

That went by the wayside _really_ fast and we went back to magical horse
feed stations throughout the wilderness. ;-)

Of course realism never _did_ play a very large role in my D&D games.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:22:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

Ethan Henry wrote:

> Is everyone in the Third Imperium forced to use adjustable wrenches
> I wonder?

Worse...suppose the Vilani standard is five or seven sided nuts...even
your trusty 'Crescent Universal Socket Set' wouldn't work...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:11:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: energy weps

>In fact, I've been wondering lately at the presence of Fusiona nd Plasma
>turrets; they cannot be used at far range or beyond, there is no factor per
>weapon advantage, they are still subject to sand, use the same tables for
>to hit and damage as lasers, and take up more space.

  Per MT they penetrate sand at +2, and at TL 12 (not the fairest choice, but
the first for fusers) a sungle fusion gun is f4, plasma f3, and beam f1.

  OC, played on a hex-grid using vector movement (there was a Dragon article
that provided basic rules for such) the range limit would suck massively.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:34:23 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
> > Is everyone in the Third Imperium forced to use adjustable wrenches
> > I wonder?
> 
> Worse...suppose the Vilani standard is five or seven sided nuts...even
> your trusty 'Crescent Universal Socket Set' wouldn't work...
> 
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group

No, I tend to see the Vilani using fasteners that have internal gripping
surfaces - and the specific tools that are used with each type of fastener would
have a specific range of torque that they could deliver to ensure correct
delivery of the required force to seat the fastener.

The VARGR, on the other hand, have a large variety of fasteners of different
types - not that it matters because you can get almost anything on with a 'vargr
speed wrench' (pliers), at least once.  (The second time you get vise-grips)

douglas
- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:57:37 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: "Progress" (was Roman Machineguns)

Tue, 5 May 1998 15:45:46 +0200 (MET DST), Lars Adler
<adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
> Hooked in here: The greeks had a steam machine for some time, but they used
> it as a toy - you know, the philosophers didn't think much of experiments.

There is a lesson from Travller in this.  Ancient (and in 
fact most) societies are suprisingly (to modern people)
unintersted in new ways of doing things if the old
ways are working OK.  (Why bother with machines whe
the use of slaves, seft, or whatever is doing just
fine?)  The modern concept of "progress for the sake
of progress", where new ways of doing things are
seen as goals in their own right is a new (and
perhaps transitory) phase of human development.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 16:21:01 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: energy weps

>>In fact, I've been wondering lately at the presence of Fusiona nd Plasma
>>turrets; they cannot be used at far range or beyond, there is no factor per
>>weapon advantage, they are still subject to sand, use the same tables for
>>to hit and damage as lasers, and take up more space.
>
>  Per MT they penetrate sand at +2, and at TL 12 (not the fairest choice, but
>the first for fusers) a sungle fusion gun is f4, plasma f3, and beam f1.

That makes a *little* more sense, but WRT your factors; at TL 12 a single
*turret* (as opposed to weapon) compares thus;

Type                Power     Volume      Weight     Price    Factor
Triple Beam Laser    750       13.5        15         3Mcr     2
Dual PG Turret       500       27          6          3Mcr 3.5 (between 3 & 4)
Dual FG Turret      1000       27          10         4Mcr     4

To express it a little differently I'll divide the vars. attributes by the
factor of the weapon;

Type                Power     Volume      Weight     Price
Triple Beam Laser-7  375       6.75         7.5        1.5
Dual PG Turret-12    143       7.7          1.72       .86
Dual FG Turret-12    250       6.75         2.5         1

Hmmm, that's a little different than I expected; they normalize pretty
comparably (aside from the range issue - which is pretty important).  Not
much difference in volume consumed (most important of these factors IMO),
fairly close price wise, power is quite a difference, but not enough to add
much power plant volume (volume of pp assuming large plant efficiency at
TL12 is 1 kl per 6 MW difference; 38kl btw the highest (Blaser) and lowest
(PG) consumers), and weight is a huge difference (but weight is hardly used
for anything when Manuver Drive units are used).

Having played a few MT combat sessions recently, we found sand to be very
effective against blasers, but that additional +2 is not going to make a
lot of difference.  The combination of the +2 and the better factor might,
however, and it just might be that there is a reason for carrying a few
"Fusion carronades" after all.

>  OC, played on a hex-grid using vector movement (there was a Dragon article
>that provided basic rules for such) the range limit would suck massively.

Right.

Now the next question.  should a single turret be allowed to contain
multiple batteries of weapons.  In other words, can a single turret with
multiple weapons attack a target (or targets) multiple times or is it
always no more than one battery?  (rules references would be helpful).  As
far as I can find, the MT ref's manual does not *specifically* allow or
disallow this, and some CT designs (ISTR) had a 'mixed turret'
configuration which must have allowed multiple attacks.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 15:24:29 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Hans Rancke-Madsen responded:

> >I was wondering the same thing back in March, and also designed a version
> >of the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ (see digest v1998.n270, March 12).  I made a
> >different assumption; that it was jump-4, same as the Long Liner (Tukera
> >supposedly ran routes along xboat lines; _Traveller Adventure_).
>
> The official X-boat lines or a plausible set of X-boat lines?

In _Traveller Adventure_, Tukera ran along the official X-boat lines.  My
intention was to build a ship capable of running on an arbitrary xboat net
designed at jump-4.

> As for the jump-4,
> what route did you decide on for the ship to get to and from Regina?

The writeup I made assumed that travel was along the official xboat lines,
and claimed that the Trimkhana-Brilliance was headed to Roup, as that link
requires a large jump.  I forget if that's a jump-4; if it isn't, another
destination should be selected that is (to force the ship to drop all her
tanks).  I suppose it would make more sense if the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ 
was headed the other way, into Lanth toward the interior.  If there were
an xboat line toward Rhylanor (as DGP added later, or as was supposedly
being constructed in _Twilight's Peak_) that would make sense, too.

> Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
> port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
> tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
> compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
> from such an arrangement.

Well, if there are four tanks, I think that the ship can drop one and
execute a jump-3 with the remaining three tanks and ship (1040 tons),
burning 312 tons of fuel (using most of the fuel in the retained tanks
as well as the dropped one).  A jump-4 would require all four tanks to be
dropped, leaving the ship (800 tons), and burning all 320 tons of fuel.
Or, you can only attach three tanks before executing a jump-3, and 
dropping all of them burn only 240 tons of fuel.  Or, you can operate
at jump-2 indefinitely by carrying three or four tanks and not dropping
any.  There's a few other variations. 

This means that you could execute a jump-3, dropping one tank, refuel,
and execute another jump-3, dropping the other three tanks.  This may
help improve the survivability issue, and help the ship's economics.
Suddenly, it becomes very important to figure out what will cost more,
burning extra fuel, or replacing dropped tankage (if tanks are really
non-reusable).

Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 

  -- Steve Bonneville 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:44:26 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Horse Collars

At 09:09 AM 06/05/98 -0500, Michael Croft wrote:

>And one other thing.  It generally makes Medievalists see red when you
>refer to their period as "The Dark Ages."  The term is considered highly
>misleading.

I have studied medieval history, and I chose to use 'The Dark Ages',
because I was taught that it refered to the period before the High Middle
Ages, say roughly the Carolingian and Ottonian empires, through to about
the first crusade.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 17:03:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

Steven Bonneville wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I've seen several (20th century) space station designs using space shuttle
fuel tanks as building blocks.

Of course, the most obvious thing to do with a used 80-ton drop tank is 
refill it with fuel. If the drop tank isn't reusable for fuel, Many of the 
other interesting things you could do with it are probably impossible 
as well.

What would make an 80-ton drop tank non-reusable? Is it sucked into
jump space forever? Does it have power converters in it that are burned
out when you do the quick burn to get ready for jump? Or do the explosive
bolts simply crack it here and there so you don't trust it with high-pressure
jump fuel any more?

If the last were true, that would provide some ideas - orbital habitats,
scrap metal, hulls for really cheap (space gypsies?) system ships,
collect them up and recondition them...

"Come on down to Fnik's Salvage, where we have a full stock of 
Tukhera Lines reconditioned drop tanks! Each tank is inspected and
100% guaranteed not to stick to your ship like a leech and make
you explode messily..."

Hmmm...I was reading a module for the Star Wars RPG, it mentioned 
an interesting practice of their Imperial Navy. They kept their ships
scrupulously clean, even if that meant throwing out half-empty containers
of things. There were salvage ships that would eagerly zoom into the
garbage stream of departing Imperial vessels, sending out spacehands
and salvage droids to grab these goodies...many of which were 
consolidated, repackaged and (with complete legality) resold to the
Imperial Navy.

How does that space gruel taste after being dumped out with the
garbage once or twice? :) 


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:30:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> The VARGR, on the other hand, have a large variety of fasteners of different
> types - not that it matters because you can get almost anything on with a 'vargr
> speed wrench' (pliers), at least once.  (The second time you get vise-grips)

Q: What's a Vargr toolkit?
A: A hammer

Q: What's a professional Vargr toolkit?
A: A bigger hammer.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 14:39:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Steven Bonneville wrote:

> of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :)

1) Instant belter hab. Just add air and lock.

2) Attach it permanently to a 200t free trader and get an additional 4
jumps on a refuelling. No more landings, but what the hey, use the
orbital highports and buy your fuel. Or make it streamlined, hang it off
the roof and go.

3) Secret base...after years of these 'disposables' in use, there'll be
a bunch wandering around.

4) a vessel for brewing really, REALLY big batches of beer (a nice
Macro-brew anyone ;-)

5) the basis for a 30th century Oscar-Mayer Wienermobile

6) really cheap cargo modules, or bulk liquid carriers...if it'll hold
in lH2, it'll hold just about anything.

7) instant funky space-hippy hab, just add air, lock and groovy posters.

...need I go on?


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:23:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Spin habs in combat

anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) wrote:


>Um, how about conservation of angular momentum? Seems like you break at
>least one natural law here.
>
>Electric braking of spinning stuff on earth works by transferring the
>angular momentum to big old earth.

Yes. I know on both points. I forgot about angular mom, but a later post
mentioned that.

The original post was discussing needing somewhere to store *energy* and
suggested some kind of flywheel would be needed - I counter suggested
conversion from kinetic to electric energy. I did forget Angular momentum
though... you need something like an OMS to stop the whole ship spining.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com--------
"Even in the most depressing dystopia, there's still the
notion that the future is something we build. It doesn't
just happen. You can't predict the future, but you can
invent it. Build it." - 'Fallen Angels' Niven/Pournelle/Flynn
- --Get Infini-V from http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ --

------------------------------

Date: Wed,  6 May 98 22:28:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Roddenberry?

GDW@AOL.COM wrote...
> Don't start me off on Roddenberry
    Hey, list traffic is low and you got me curious!  What's the problem with
him???

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:46:05 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: energy weps

I don't have my High Guard (I got both versions BTW) in front of me, but I
vaguely remember that mixed turrets were allowed...screw it, I'll dig them
out. Ok; here it is: 

"Ships with more than one weapon mount of a type may group them into
batteries. Ships with more than ten mounts of the same type MUST <my emphasis>
group them into batteries....On ships of 1000 tons <the infamous what type of
ton that MT identified as volume...ie. 14(or 13.5 take your pick :-) m3> and
under, mixed turrets (weapons of different types in the same turret) are
allowed; in such cases, each weapon is a battery." pg.#29

High Guard (2nd. ed.) Traveller, Book 5
Copyright, 1980, by Games Designer's Workshops (now Far Future Enterprises)
Marc Miller, Frank Chadwick, John Harshman

I see advantages and disadvantages to this. I feel that mixed turrets were a
holdover from CT book two (Starships) ship designs, and the boardgame Mayday
(which BTW suggested it could combine Mayday and HighGuard into one game, with
High Guard's mechanics and Mayday's Newtonian movement. I think this later
became Brilliant Lances and Battlerider). This allowed small ships with one or
two turrets to have missiles, lasers, and Sandcasters. I always tried when
gaming, to get my freighters or couriers armed with triple turrets containing
one each of the above. The down side of this is that according to High Guard,
one has to either a) have three gunners for each turret, since each weapon is
a separate battery, or b) the turret gunner can only fire one of the turret
weapons each turn. This has the effect of cutting firepower considerably. I
would suggest that ship designers try for homogenous turrets whenever
possible. I would rather have three turrets, one with three lasers, one with
three missiles, and one with three sandcasters, than three turrets with one
each. Thus I conclude that mixed turrets should only be used on VERY small
ships (those with one or two turrets).

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:47:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Roddenberry?

I started a flame war!...I started a flame war! Does thus officially make me a
TML old fart :-)

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 20:50:42 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Systems of Measurement

You make Vargyr sound like Soviets :-)

Seth

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #467
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Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 7 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 468



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Concrete examples
King David's Spaceship
Re: energy weps
Pack animal logistics
Drop Tank glitch?
Drop tank mechanics
Re: Drop Tank glitch? 
web sites
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop tank mechanics
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Berthing costs
Re: Concrete examples
Drop Tanks in the 12 Century
Re: energy weps
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 21:22:15 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Concrete examples

Leonard responds to my response:
>> Perhaps, but the best engineers the Romans had were pretty friggin'
>> good. The Pantheon is still standing, pretty much intact, over 2000
>> years later, and not a single bit of rebar in it.
>
>They weren't *that* good. The reason their stuff is still standing is
>that it's ridiculously overbuilt. 

I submit that this is not always the case.

>Probably *only* a legend, as malleability is a property of metals

Undoubtedly only a legend...I can't imagine what the stuff was, unless the
craftsman was named Montgomery Scott.

Peter H. Brenton responds to:
>>why is it
>>that conservatism is inherent to the military mind?).
>
>Because up until the Twentieth Century, the military men who were executed
>tended to be executed for ignoring orders and/or doctrine, not for
>following it.
>
>Well, discipline is one thing, tactics is another altogether.  That's all
>pretty moot, however.  They just didn't put the guns in the right hands.

Bingo! The first machineguns (the Requa Battery, the French
Milltreaiissleiuuse (sic) and to some extent the Gatling) looked like
artillery, so they were initially deployed and used like artillery. 

Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
>Subject: Horse Collars
>Here's a web reference for those further interested:

The aforementioned _Equus_ also has a good discussion of this topic. 

Even Jerry Pournelle can be mistaken...: )

> Medievalists see red when you refer to their period as "The Dark Ages."  The
> term is considered highly misleading.

</PC>
Only by Medievalists. The argument has been going on ever since 1969, at
least, when I first heard two professors square off over: 

Resolved: The Dark Ages is the Process by Which the Romans Became Italians

An interesting period. Perhaps someone can explain to me (in Email -- no point
in clutering the TML) the intense fascination with the immediate post-Roman
period by a small group. Evidently the Post Roman/pre-Viking period has some
mystical significance that I (as an agnostic and follower of a different
"spirituality path") fail to grasp. It all seems to be tied up with
neopaganism, the Arthur legend, and the Sutton Hoo burial. Personally, I think
it has to do with the fact that primary literary sources are rather scarce, so
it's easier to make stuff up without being contridicted.
<PC>

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 22:19:23 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: King David's Spaceship

Anders Backman types:
>(A good read BTW, if you buy the standard notion of Pournelle that soldiers
>in general and especially soldiers with extensive knowledge in the history
>of warfare are automatically superior in to others.)

    I think it's more accurate to say that 'old soliders' or 'soliders
smart enough to stay alive'
rather than just soliders.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:24:42 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: energy weps

>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: energy weps
...
>To express it a little differently I'll divide the vars. attributes by the
>factor of the weapon;
>
>Type                Power     Volume      Weight     Price
>Triple Beam Laser-7  375       6.75         7.5        1.5
>Dual PG Turret-12    143       7.7          1.72       .86
>Dual FG Turret-12    250       6.75         2.5         1
>
>Hmmm, that's a little different than I expected; they normalize pretty
>comparably (aside from the range issue - which is pretty important).
...

  Sorry, I just flipped off the single stats; the above is vastly superior.

>Having played a few MT combat sessions recently, we found sand to be very
>effective against blasers, but that additional +2 is not going to make a
>lot of difference.  The combination of the +2 and the better factor might,
>however, and it just might be that there is a reason for carrying a few
>"Fusion carronades" after all.

  They might also make for fairly kinky anti-KKM weapons, FWIW, particularly
if IYTU they can get detonation type plasma ammo (a la 2300 AD), thus not
having to worry about accumulators or PD power usage peaks.

  They also make small TL 13+ fighters really good against impromptu
armed vessels; one shot = one effective hit = 4 or 5 - X criticals,
where X is size stat from HG. Ouch. Yes officer, I'd rather just stop.

>Now the next question.  should a single turret be allowed to contain
>multiple batteries of weapons.  In other words, can a single turret with
>multiple weapons attack a target (or targets) multiple times or is it
>always no more than one battery?  (rules references would be helpful).  As
>far as I can find, the MT ref's manual does not *specifically* allow or
>disallow this, and some CT designs (ISTR) had a 'mixed turret'
>configuration which must have allowed multiple attacks.

  In HG a single (if the ship has <10 turret, p.30) turret can contain
multiple batteries of a single weapon of the appropriate type (within
the size limit of the turret) - typically a tri-turret with 1x each of
missile, laser, and sand. By TNE (and T4?) tech this should be disallowed
for lasers, and isn't relevant for other weapons if the CT hardpoint
limit has vanished.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:24:50 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Pack animal logistics

>Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:58:25 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465
...
>We rapidly got into an infinite expansion of: to feed the horses you
>need x mules carrying y*x sacks of grain, and then to feed the horses +
>x mules you need x + z mules carryinx x*y + z*y sacks. Iterate until
>they figure out they have to walk in with a few pack mules in tow,
>eating the ones who carry the grain as you empty their loads.

  Apparently it worked out to be about six days range for large
ancient military expeditions before re-victualling, presumably
by meeting up with the fleet following them along the coast or
by settling down for some heavy foraging (so much for strategic
mobility there).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 19:24:57 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop Tank glitch?

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
...
>2) Attach it permanently to a 200t free trader and get an additional 4
>jumps on a refuelling. No more landings, but what the hey, use the
>orbital highports and buy your fuel. Or make it streamlined, hang it off
>the roof and go.

  I've been waiting for this one to pop up. Why build any internal
Jump fuel tankage at all on new construction or large refits?

  The dedicated internal tanks on my Far Trader take up 40 DT of my
hull, which latter is (in HG) costed at MCr 0.1 per. Instead, I can
now build a 160 DT hull with drive capacity for 200 DT loadout, and
install 40 DT worth of tanks for MCr 0.05 complete. Unit cost reduced
by MCr 3.95, which means about another Cr 10,000 each month that I don't
have to earn (or, I've got 10 tons of invisible cargo revenue on the
books).

  Heck, why install explosive bolts when dumping them will cost me cash?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 20:13:24 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Drop tank mechanics

  Just what are you getting for your KCr 10 + 1 per Dt?

  Obviously no contragrav. Presumably a jump grid, or they couldn't
be retained.

  I wonder whether you can streamline something with a fairly thin
hull; hypersonic transit might rupture them, let alone the drag
that retro-fitted ones are going to induce if carelessly designed.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 00:14:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank glitch? 

> >From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
> >Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
> ...
> >2) Attach it permanently to a 200t free trader and get an additional 4
> >jumps on a refuelling. No more landings, but what the hey, use the
> >orbital highports and buy your fuel. Or make it streamlined, hang it off
> >the roof and go.
> 
>   I've been waiting for this one to pop up. Why build any internal
> Jump fuel tankage at all on new construction or large refits?
> 
>   The dedicated internal tanks on my Far Trader take up 40 DT of my
> hull, which latter is (in HG) costed at MCr 0.1 per. Instead, I can
> now build a 160 DT hull with drive capacity for 200 DT loadout, and
> install 40 DT worth of tanks for MCr 0.05 complete. Unit cost reduced
> by MCr 3.95, which means about another Cr 10,000 each month that I don't
> have to earn (or, I've got 10 tons of invisible cargo revenue on the
> books).
> 
>   Heck, why install explosive bolts when dumping them will cost me cash?

1.  If you throw away the tanks after every useage, you *may* end up jumping 
into a system where you can't get new tanks.  That means, you're stuck there.  
Enjoy your stay.

2.  Drop tanks are not as heavy duty as a hull is, so it's easier to hole.  
Fuel runs out, and you're stuck there.  Enjoy your stay.

3.  Way I've seen it played against me is, a shot at the ship is a shot at 
both the hull and the tanks.  If your tanks are 1/5 the size of the ship, you 
have a 1 in 5 chance of the other guy's shot hitting your tanks instead of 
your ship, holing it.  Fuel runs out and you're stuck there.  Enjoy your stay.

FWIG, the drop tank costs are for *one-shot* tanks.  Not permenantly mounted 
tanks.  I've always played them that way because it makes *SENSE* to do it 
that way.  I'm from the school of 'make the players work for an even break'.  
YMMV.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 00:54:48 EDT
From: Kagehira <Kagehira@aol.com>
Subject: web sites

	While trying to go along the Traveller webring tonight, I noticed a fair
amount of sites had a tendency to use dark fonts against a dark background,
causing the text to be either very hard to see or impossible to see. This
problem usually occured in links, but not always.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 23:38:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation
...
>Very true. But the operative words are 'over time'. There is a pre-existent
>fleet of normal ships which will still be worth something. While buying a
>new high-capacity ship to replace a 40 year old normal ship is indisputably
>cost-effective, the same may not be true if you have to dispose of a 
>brand new ship. And remember that a high-capacity ship is only cost-effective
>if you can find the cargo or passengers to fill it.

  Well, yes, there's an economic logic that affects the length of
the implementation cycle. Part of this will replace quantity of
hulls with equivalent capacity (and fewer bridge crews). The big
question is when did it start?

>Pure passenger liners will be screwed in that event, but high-capacity
>freighters will be able to install demountable tanks and function as
>old style freighters for the duration. 

  The demountable tanks also beg the question why they're not standard
already, as they would allow a Far Trader doing J-1 (or in-system by
M-drive) to carry 20 DT extra.

  GURPS may partially address part of this for demountable by making
criticals easier (or reducing structure [?] ratings) for ships so
equipped. The current special damage rules for external tanks really
apply only to warships, and then not under all conditions.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:44:32 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Steven Bonneville writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen responded:
> 
>>>I was wondering the same thing back in March, and also designed a version
>>>of the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ (see digest v1998.n270, March 12).  I made a
>>>different assumption; that it was jump-4, same as the Long Liner (Tukera
>>>supposedly ran routes along xboat lines; _Traveller Adventure_).
>>
>>The official X-boat lines or a plausible set of X-boat lines?
> 
>In _Traveller Adventure_, Tukera ran along the official X-boat lines.  My
>intention was to build a ship capable of running on an arbitrary xboat net
>designed at jump-4.

Sorry. That wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at the (presumably) randomly
generated X-boat lines in the official Traveller Universe. Random generation
is great as a springboard for further developement, but it sucks green pigs
when used uncritically. Case in point: When trying to decide on the route
for the Tukera high capacity liners, I noticed that on the X-boat network
Mora and Rhylanor are 9 links apart (Note: They are 10 parsecs apart).

Digression: I once came up with a way to construct a sensible X-boat network:
You first designate a number of worlds as primary nodes. Those are the worlds
that the network is designed to carry news to as fast as possible. IMTU that's
mostly Sector and subsector capitals and high-population worlds with Class A
starports You then connect all primary nodes with the fewest possible jump-4
links. Whenever you need to, you introduce secondary nodes between primary
nodes. When several alternatives for secondary nodes exists you choose the
system with the highest population/best starport.

>The writeup I made assumed that travel was along the official xboat lines,
>and claimed that the Trimkhana-Brilliance was headed to Roup, as that link
>requires a large jump.  I forget if that's a jump-4; if it isn't, another
>destination should be selected that is (to force the ship to drop all her
>tanks).  I suppose it would make more sense if the _Trimkhana-Brilliance_ 
>was headed the other way, into Lanth toward the interior.  If there were
>an xboat line toward Rhylanor (as DGP added later, or as was supposedly
>being constructed in _Twilight's Peak_) that would make sense, too.

Well, the TNS newsbrief did say that the liner would link the Regina
_subsector_ to the interior. That's why I didn't consider any system in
Regina as a possible destination. But going into lanth the next link on the
X-boat network is IIRC Dinomn, two parsecs away. I haven't done the
calculations, but I'm pretty sure that using a jump-4 ship on a jump-2
route will pretty much wipe out the economic advantage you get from
using a high capacity ship.
 
>>Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
>>port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
>>tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
>>compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
>>from such an arrangement.
> 
>Well, if there are four tanks, I think that the ship can drop one and
>execute a jump-3 with the remaining three tanks and ship (1040 tons)...

No, I didn't mean deployment strategies. I meant the physical arrangement
of the drop tanks. If I was designing a ship with four drop tanks, I
wouldn't put one tank on top of the other. That is, I would propably
have port, starboard, ventral, and dorsal tanks, but I wouldn't have a
port inboard. Can you think of an arrangement that would allow inboard
and outboard tanks that didn't interfere with each other?

>Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,

Sure. But would an inboard and an outboard tank be identical?

>and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
>of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 

If it was economic to fetch them back, I'd reuse them. If it wasn't, I'd
let them float off into the great unknown.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:52:07 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tank mechanics

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Steven Hudson wrote:

>   Just what are you getting for your KCr 10 + 1 per Dt?
> 
>   Obviously no contragrav. Presumably a jump grid, or they couldn't
> be retained.
> 
>   I wonder whether you can streamline something with a fairly thin
> hull; hypersonic transit might rupture them, let alone the drag
> that retro-fitted ones are going to induce if carelessly designed.
> 

Go to FF&S and try and design them for the cost they are suppose to have.
I think this would give them a to low a armour value to be used in space.
They would be punctured by micrometeroites.  

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:57:01 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Steven Bonneville wrote:

> Hans Rancke-Madsen responded:
> > Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
> > port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
> > tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
> > compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
> > from such an arrangement.
> 
> Well, if there are four tanks, I think that the ship can drop one and
> execute a jump-3 with the remaining three tanks and ship (1040 tons),
> burning 312 tons of fuel (using most of the fuel in the retained tanks
> as well as the dropped one).  A jump-4 would require all four tanks to be
> dropped, leaving the ship (800 tons), and burning all 320 tons of fuel.
> Or, you can only attach three tanks before executing a jump-3, and 
> dropping all of them burn only 240 tons of fuel.  Or, you can operate
> at jump-2 indefinitely by carrying three or four tanks and not dropping
> any.  There's a few other variations. 
> 
> This means that you could execute a jump-3, dropping one tank, refuel,
> and execute another jump-3, dropping the other three tanks.  This may
> help improve the survivability issue, and help the ship's economics.
> Suddenly, it becomes very important to figure out what will cost more,
> burning extra fuel, or replacing dropped tankage (if tanks are really
> non-reusable).
> 
> Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
> and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
> of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 
> 
>   -- Steve Bonneville 
> 

But that means that the tanks need a jump grid on them and that the ship
has a jump drive that is made for taking at least three of the drop tanks
into jumpspace. That is going to increase the cost of the drop tank
system.

One other issue I'm wondering about is the drop tanks survivablity in
space. Is it possible with say FF&S to make drop tanks that has amour over
the minimum level for space travel. A micrometeor is going to kill you if
this is not accounted for.

 

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:59:16 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

On Wed, 6 May 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Steven Bonneville wrote:
> 
> > of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :)
> 
> 2) Attach it permanently to a 200t free trader and get an additional 4
> jumps on a refuelling. No more landings, but what the hey, use the
> orbital highports and buy your fuel. Or make it streamlined, hang it off
> the roof and go.

That would mean that you'll have to upgrade your jumpdrive to take 280
dton into jumpspace and that the drop tank would need a jump grid on its
hull. Not the way to go :-)

> Bruce Johnson

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:21:22 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

Leonard Erickson writes:

>[Me]:
> 
>>Oh, and the adventure _Annic Nova_ implies that life support costs is only
>>half for private vessels (What it SAYS is that being a private vessel, the
>>PCs can get away with Cr1000 per week rather than the standard [Cr2000/jump].
>>Since this is exactly the same amount, I surmise that there's a misprint
>>involved and that the author MEANT Cr1000/two weeks.)
> 
>It's *not* the same amount. The passengers board the ship, it takes a
>few *hours* to get 100 diameters out. They jump and emerge (usually) a
>week later and take another few hours to get from the exit point to the
>planet. Total, 1 week plus a few hours. Thus Cr2000/week.

Yikes! Now you have life support costs up to Cr8,000/month! That's a LOT of
money...

Anyway, you're wrong. The Cr2,000 life support cost is expressly said to
cover a full two weeks. I quote:

"Each occupied stateroom on a starship involves an overhead cost of Cr2000
per trip (2 weeks) made."
         ^^^^^^^^^ 
"...double occupancy [...] requires twice the normal cost."

[_The Traveller Book_, p. 52; _Imperial Encyclopedia_, p. 89; _TRAVELLER,
The New Era_, p. 222; and _Marc Miller's TRAVELLER_, p. 97.]

And in connection with long term subsistence:

"Individuals living on ship-board have ordinary lodging and food taken care
of..."   [Book 3, p. 15]

"STARSHIPS: Passengers and crewmembers have their food and lodging provided,
with costs covered by the life support costs necessary for operation of the
ship." [_The Traveller Book_, p. 109;]

(T4 says exactly the same, although slightly paraphrased. I haven't found
it in either MT or TNE.)

And _Beltstrike_ has this to say about long-term real-space expeditions:

"In long voyages of this type [...] life support costs are paid as in the
TRAVELLER rules (Cr2000 per person per two weeks, or Cr1000 per week); 150
person-weeks of life-support supplies take up one ton of cargo space and
cost Cr150,000. [...] Life support supplies include food, air and water (to
replace leakage from the recycling process), and consumable elements of the
life support system, such as filters, CO2 absorbers, and so on." [Belter's
Handbook, Beltstrike, p. 3]

So Cr2000 will support one person for a full 2 weeks/14 days/336 hours. Yet,
as both you and I have realized, the average passenger dosen't spend 336
hours/trip aboard a ship. I used 2/3rds as a simple ratio, but it's actually
lower than that. On the average it will be less than 8 days (57% of 14 days).
Call it 60% to get a nice round number. That's a difference of Cr800/trip
between passengers and crew and is _not_ a trivial amount.

Now for the ANNIC NOVA. The text says:

"Ordinarily, staterooms require about Cr2000 per trip each. As a private
ship, the cost may be reduced for non-passengers. Figure on Cr1000 per
person per week to cover the costs for food, supplies, etc. Whenever
fitting out for voyages, the crew should lay in a certain number of supplies
whenever in port. One person-week lasts one person one week, costs Cr1000,
and requires 200 kg cargo space."
[_ANNIC NOVA_, adventure in JTAS#1, p. 31]

Cr1000/week is exactly the same as the rules mean by Cr2000/trip, so it is
_not_ reduced one little bit.

>The problem is that I don't know how *much* is needed. And I don't know
>enough about how such filter cansister would have to be constructed
>(and thus how much they'd cost over and above the cost of the raw
>materials). 

OK. But can we agree that IF it costs Cr2000/man/fortnight, then it should
not cost more than Cr1200 per passenger/trip?

BTW. The cost of a meal in Rhylan Starport [on the airless world Dinom] is
Cr20 and a room costs Cr100 per day. That's a total of Cr160/day for life
support. Granted that Rhylan Starport must be considerably bigger than a
free trader or a subsidized merchant, it can't be all that much bigger
considering the amount of passenger traffic it must get (Dinom is _not_ a
major world) and these costs are what the starport charges, not what it
pays for consumables. In other words, the Cr160/day DOES include power
consumption, employee salaries, and profit and bank payments, which
starship life support costs expressly does not.

>>Where is it established that a misjump can keep you in jump space for four
>>whole weeks?
> 
>In the misjump rules, you roll for jump duration. 1d6 weeks. At least
>in CT. And I thought someone posted that MT was the same.

I couldn't find that in any of my CT rulebooks. You roll a die for direction
and 1DD for distance, but not, as far as I can find, for duration.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:26:45 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Concrete examples

On Wed, 6 May 1998 21:22:15 EDT GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com> writes:
>>They weren't *that* good. The reason their stuff is still standing is
>>that it's ridiculously overbuilt. 
>
>I submit that this is not always the case.

Well, as an engineer, I must submit that this is most always true.  In
those ages, when engineering was done by experience, rather than
analysis, designs tended to have rather large safety factors (though they
weren't quantified as such).  While a modern design might have a safety
factor of 2 or 3, an ancient Roman design would have a safety factor of
20 or 25.


Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM

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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 08:45:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century

Steven Hudson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
  I've been waiting for this one to pop up. Why build any internal
Jump fuel tankage at all on new construction or large refits?

  The dedicated internal tanks on my Far Trader take up 40 DT of my
hull, which latter is (in HG) costed at MCr 0.1 per. Instead, I can
now build a 160 DT hull with drive capacity for 200 DT loadout, and
install 40 DT worth of tanks for MCr 0.05 complete. Unit cost reduced
by MCr 3.95, which means about another Cr 10,000 each month that I don't
have to earn (or, I've got 10 tons of invisible cargo revenue on the
books).

  Heck, why install explosive bolts when dumping them will cost me cash?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, I made civilian drop tanks very vulnerable to battle damage, or
even incidental damage. Even things like abrupt maneuvers or gas giant
refueling could snap them right off their pylons. You could hang on to them,
but they were really designed to strap on once and then dump. I figured
that since the Gazelle would only drop tanks in an emergency, they were
more expensive custom military jobs that were tougher.

External demountable tanks I made tougher and more reliable - I 
figured that since it took facilities to remove them, they must be
bolted on very securely.

I don't have my books with me - wasn't there something in High Guard
or Megatraveller about any fuel hit destroying all drop tanks?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:06:35 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: energy weps

>Now the next question.  should a single turret be allowed to contain
>multiple batteries of weapons...
>(rules references would be helpful).
If I remember correctly, the fighter design in Fighting Ships of the
Shattered Imperium (yes, Pete, I know I still have your copy) contained a
turrent with two missile and one laser. And Marc designed that himself.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:25:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Howdy!

Tommy Grav wrote:
> On Wed, 6 May 1998, Steven Bonneville wrote:
[snip]
> > Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
> > and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
> > of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 
> 
> But that means that the tanks need a jump grid on them and that the ship
> has a jump drive that is made for taking at least three of the drop tanks
> into jumpspace. That is going to increase the cost of the drop tank
> system.
> 
[snip]
Used tanks might be refurbished and reused, much like the Shuttle SRBs
are reused.

As to jump grids, if your canon doesn't use jump grids, it is a non-issue.
In fact, if you consider the Gazelle CE, it has drop tanks, but they
are not normally expended, so clearly they "work". I recall a recent
note that Marc rejected jump grid in favor of the "lanthanum jump coil"
snternal to the jump drive. integrity to keep jump space out of the ship, but it 
yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #468
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Thursday, May 7 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 469



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Horse Collars
Investment in Traveller
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop tank system implementation
Re: Roddenberry?
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: web sites
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Berthing costs
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century 
re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop Tank glitch? 
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century
I need ideas
Re: I need ideas
Re: Drop Tank glitch? 
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 09:42:47 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Horse Collars

In a message dated 98-05-06 10:51:17 EDT, you write:

<< 
 >ObTrav: How much cultural/definitional differences do you find as you
 >travel  between planets?  Is the slang term you used for Vargr growing up
 >on Ruie likely to cause a fight/riot on Regina?  Or do recordings and
 >travel eliminate regional/planetary cultural differences?
 
  >>
Our combined cultural experience is always a clue to what we can expect in the
Traveller universe.  For example, all of Hispano-America speaks Spanish, but
Argentines sound like Italians, words commonly used in Venezuela are
unacceptable language in Chile, about half of Paraguayan Spanish is really
Guarani (local indian tongue). At the airports, the traffic controller speak
English.

By extension, we would find that on every world, the deeper you go into the
world and away from the starport, the deeper you get into local culture and
language... and the greater the chance for adventure.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:39:58 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Investment in Traveller

Hiya,
     Having recently come into some money in the game I am playing in
(thanks Pete) I'm brainstorming a shortlist of constructive ways to spend
it to give to the captain. Investment is an attractive option, as it covers
long term contingencies. The question is, of course, what is the likely
return on investment in Traveller?
     At first glance, there is no information pertaining to this in the
rules. But on second glance, I've found two bracketing figures that should
allow for working out return rates.
     The first is shipping. We all know that to get a ship you need 20%
down and then pay 1/240th of the cost for 40 years. But that is as a buyer.
Looking at it from the other end, any sufficiently rich person can act as
the bank, finance the purchase of a ship for someone, and then be the
recipient of their payments.
     So, for example, if you decided to invest in a (MT) Free Trader, you
would have to put up 29.532 MCr, and would receive 153,813 Cr/month return.
For a Far Trader 32.8556 MCr with a 171,125 Cr/month return, and for a
Subsidised Merchanter 54MCr returning 281,250 Cr/month.
     Abstracting this a bit further, suppose you have an investment bank
whose primary investment is in shipping. Instead of you, personally, buying
a ship, instead you invest in the bank purchasing a ship. You can invest
whatever fraction you like. At this rate for every 1 MCr you invest, you
will gain a return of 5,208 Cr/Month. (Payback is after 16 years.)
     Now, of course, this payback has been calculated from raw trader
payments and does not include various overheads like admin, insurance, etc.
Call this, then, the upper bracket.
     The second example in the Traveller's Aid Society. It explicitly
mentions that they take your 1 MCr initiation fee and invest it. They pay
out to you 1 high passage every two months, which you can cash in at 90% of
its value. This works out as a return of 4,500 Cr/month for your 1 MCr
investment. (Payback is after 18.5 years.)
     Now this figure includes all sorts of overhead not only for admin but
also running all those little lounges in A & B starports everywhere. Call
this, then, the lower bracket.
     Together these give us a rangeband, from 4,500 to 5,208 Cr/month of
return on investment that fits in with existing stuff. Personally I would
just choose 5,000 Cr/month per megacredit as a nice round figure.

     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:56:47 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Michael and MJ Houghton wrote:

> Howdy!
> 
> Tommy Grav wrote:
> > On Wed, 6 May 1998, Steven Bonneville wrote:
> [snip]
> > > Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
> > > and there might be other neat tricks to use them that I haven't thought
> > > of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :) 
> > 
> > But that means that the tanks need a jump grid on them and that the ship
> > has a jump drive that is made for taking at least three of the drop tanks
> > into jumpspace. That is going to increase the cost of the drop tank
> > system.
> > 
> [snip]
> Used tanks might be refurbished and reused, much like the Shuttle SRBs
> are reused.
> 
> As to jump grids, if your canon doesn't use jump grids, it is a non-issue.
> In fact, if you consider the Gazelle CE, it has drop tanks, but they
> are not normally expended, so clearly they "work". I recall a recent
> note that Marc rejected jump grid in favor of the "lanthanum jump coil"
> snternal to the jump drive. integrity to keep jump space out of the ship, but it 
> yours,
> Michael
> 
> -- 
> Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly

But that stil means that at 200 dton free trader with a 80 dton drop tank
needs a jump drive capable of carring 280 dtons into jumspace if it is
taking the tank with it. That is going to increase the cost of the ship.

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 10:22:29 -0400
From: Greg Smith <gsmith@helot.arl.mil>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

Traveller-digest wrote:

>No, I didn't mean deployment strategies. I meant the physical arrangement
>of the drop tanks. If I was designing a ship with four drop tanks, I
>wouldn't put one tank on top of the other. That is, I would propably
>have port, starboard, ventral, and dorsal tanks, but I wouldn't have a
>port inboard. Can you think of an arrangement that would allow inboard
>and outboard tanks that didn't interfere with each other?
>
>>Making the tanks identical might be good for mass-production purposes,
>
>Sure. But would an inboard and an outboard tank be identical?

I would say that they could be similar to drop tank on modern day
aircraft.  You have inboard and outboard tanks, but they are all ventral
mounts, under the wings.  Similar setup for starships, with them mounted
along one surface, inboard/outboard as in relation to the central axis
on the plane.  ??? Make sense?

Greg

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 07:37:30 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Roddenberry?

Not until it's the _third_ time you've seen that flame war! ;-)

Sethkimmel wrote:
> 
> I started a flame war!...I started a flame war! Does thus officially make me a
> TML old fart :-)
> 
> Seth

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 10:11:46 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU> wrote:

> Steven Bonneville wrote:
>
> > of yet.  (What can you do with a used 80-ton drop tank?)  :)
[...]
> 6) really cheap cargo modules, or bulk liquid carriers...if it'll hold
> in lH2, it'll hold just about anything.

Which reminds me of another way to get money back out of the ship on short
links; replace one or two of the tanks with 80-ton cargo modules.  However,
this assumes that the tanks are shaped in a way that makes this feasible.
You could add two cargo tanks, and drop two fuel tanks, executing a jump-1,
or add one cargo tank and drop three fuel tanks, executing a jump-2.  Now,
whether this makes sense depends again on what you're earning on the cargo
(probably speculative freight), and what replacing drop tankage costs.

You might be able to haul more freight if you used custom cargo modules that
had some internal fuel tankage.  For instance, you could execute a jump-3
with a custom cargo module and by dropping three tanks if the cargo module
contained 24 tons of fuel and 56 tons of cargo.  You could also carry two
of these custom modules in the jump-2 example above, dropping two normal
fuel tanks.

Of course, you'll have to decide if this is a legitimate way to use a drop
tank mount point.  I think this looks like a fun way for a ship to work, 
but the infrastructure requirements (remounting facilities, manufacture of
tanks and modules, getting fueled tankage where it needs to go, and so on) 
are fairly significant.

Steven Hudson wrote:

>   The demountable tanks also beg the question why they're not standard
> already, as they would allow a Far Trader doing J-1 (or in-system by
> M-drive) to carry 20 DT extra.

As I recall, again in _Traveller Adventure_, installing the tankage took
two weeks in port; time is money.  This is also a strike against the
collapsible demountable tank craze that swept THUDDD-1 (and my design was
one of the offenders in that regard).

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote (regarding the X-boat network):

> Sorry. That wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at the (presumably) randomly
> generated X-boat lines in the official Traveller Universe.

No problem, that's exactly how I took it.  :)

[...]
>>>Maybe. How do you envisage the arrangement of the four tanks? Is there a
>>>port outboard tank and how does it fit with the port inboard tank? Four
>>>tanks would increase the cost by Cr20,000 per set, which is not much
>>>compared to Cr664,000, but there would still have to be a logical benefit
>>>from such an arrangement.
>> 
>>Well, if there are four tanks, I think that the ship can drop one and
>>execute a jump-3 with the remaining three tanks and ship (1040 tons)...
>
> No, I didn't mean deployment strategies. I meant the physical arrangement
> of the drop tanks. If I was designing a ship with four drop tanks, I
> wouldn't put one tank on top of the other. That is, I would propably
> have port, starboard, ventral, and dorsal tanks, but I wouldn't have a
> port inboard. Can you think of an arrangement that would allow inboard
> and outboard tanks that didn't interfere with each other?

Okay.  I think the deployment strategies drive the need for a four tank
system; more flexibility in deployment, but not so many tanks that it'll
be too pricey on the flat fee for each tank.

In terms of the physical arrangement, we don't know how the ship was 
supposedly configured.  Somehow, though we have two tanks on the port
side and perhaps two to starboard.  I think all four tanks need to be
able to be jettisoned individually, in rapid succession.  If they're
even roughly side-by-side (perhaps they're long and narrow), then one
will be farther to port than the other.  That one would be the "port
outboard" tank and the other to port the "inboard" tank.  The inboard
tank might be more ventral or dorsal than the outboard, but whatever
way the ship's configured, it's apparently in a way that the system
referred to in the TNS article is easy for the crew to use.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 08:57:29 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: web sites

At 12:54 AM 5/7/98 EDT, you wrote:
>	While trying to go along the Traveller webring tonight, I noticed a fair
>amount of sites had a tendency to use dark fonts against a dark background,
>causing the text to be either very hard to see or impossible to see. This
>problem usually occured in links, but not always.

I test my pages by standing about 2m from them with my glasses off.  If I
can't clearly tell the difference between text, links, visitied links, and
backround, something has to change. 
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:31:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

>Hiya,
>     Having recently come into some money in the game I am playing in
>(thanks Pete)

You're welcome, but you *did* earn it to some extent.

> I'm brainstorming a shortlist of constructive ways to spend
>it to give to the captain. Investment is an attractive option, as it covers
>long term contingencies. The question is, of course, what is the likely
>return on investment in Traveller?

Using a real-world, 20th century model (the best available, short of making
something up) you must remember that the return on investment is roughly
proportional to the risk associated with that investment.

[snip]
>     The first is shipping. We all know that to get a ship you need 20%
>down and then pay 1/240th of the cost for 40 years. But that is as a buyer.
>Looking at it from the other end, any sufficiently rich person can act as
>the bank, finance the purchase of a ship for someone, and then be the
>recipient of their payments.

An excellent concept for investment, but individual ships are a pretty
risky investment in general (how many player groups have skipped out on
their payments), though specific individuals (who are acquaintances) may be
of lower risk, and background checks and barratry insurance could mitigate
the risk.

>     Abstracting this a bit further, suppose you have an investment bank
>whose primary investment is in shipping.

Actually, the bank (or firm) would organize the loans into a
pseudo-security, similar to the way that Genniemaes and Fanniemaes are
organized now; Genniemaes and Fanniemaes (sorry, meaning of the original
acronym is lost to me) are basically gov't backed loans bundled into groups
with a certain net worth, then the bundle is "sold" to individual investors
(usually mutual funds) as "shares" of the loan.  The cost is market driven,
the return is the rate on the loan, less a point or so shaved off the top
for the bank or firm who bundled the loans and is administering them.  They
are usually sold at somewhat less than their "face value" since there is
some risk associated with them (although the risk is low to begin with on
home loans, and failure of an individual loan is diluted by the 'bundling').

> At this rate for every 1 MCr you invest, you
>will gain a return of 5,208 Cr/Month. (Payback is after 16 years.)

A return of about 6.3% if you hold the mortgage, after bundling and bank
fees, etc. you could probably get about 5% return.  A safe investment,
therefore not a very high return.  Risk varies, but goes up with a bad
economy.  I can see different "bundles", I'll call them "Shippiemaes" or
"Shippies" for short, having special attributes; A Core Shippie that has a
4% return but is more secure since the ships involved are all million ton
traders running between Core Area planets, a "Growth Shippie" which is for
more risky areas such as between the Imperium and Sword Worlds or
specializing in Ships trading with Vargr, or perhaps a "Shippie Magellan"
which tends to carry a mixture of Growth, Stable, and high risk ships for
balancing risk with return; around 8% is probably the best one can do.

Of course there are other tactics; these shares are bought and sold, and as
such they can be influenced similarly to other stocks; a tradewar (or
verifiable rumor of tradewar) will decrease the value dramatically of
regional shippies, a more conventional war would be even worse.

The securities can be thought of as having a maximum value equal to their
"face value" plus the total possible interest earned less inflation; so a
1000 Mcr Shippiemae with a 6% "coupon" (i.e. return of 6% per year for 40
years) would earn its holder Mcr 60 per year; total return Mcr 2400 - Max
sale price for such a "bond" would be the "cost" of the bond in terms of
inflation; at a 3% per year inflation rate the 'real' rate earned is only
3% - so the biggest sale value would be (1000 * 3% * 40 = ) 1200 Mcr.  More
likely it'll be 2% since there is some risk so (1000 * 2% * 40) 1080 Mcr.

>     Now, of course, this payback has been calculated from raw trader
>payments and does not include various overheads like admin, insurance, etc.
>Call this, then, the upper bracket.

The Shippiemae would include this, but as an individual investor in a
specific ship these would need to be considered.

>     The second example in the Traveller's Aid Society. It explicitly
>mentions that they take your 1 MCr initiation fee and invest it. They pay
>out to you 1 high passage every two months, which you can cash in at 90% of
>its value. This works out as a return of 4,500 Cr/month for your 1 MCr
>investment. (Payback is after 18.5 years.)

4.5%, a very safe investment, savings accout-like returns.

>     Now this figure includes all sorts of overhead not only for admin but
>also running all those little lounges in A & B starports everywhere. Call
>this, then, the lower bracket.

Well, *you* don't have to worry about that overhead, and I'm sure the
membership fees for TAS, like the membership fees for, say, Diner's Club or
AMEX, only cover a fraction of their costs.  Other revenues would be
advertising, TAS Magazine sales, commission on ticket sales, and of course,
capital investements, which I bet they are making 8-9% at least, so that
your membership fee's interest can support the bimonthly ticket costs.

>     Together these give us a rangeband, from 4,500 to 5,208 Cr/month of
>return on investment that fits in with existing stuff. Personally I would
>just choose 5,000 Cr/month per megacredit as a nice round figure.

Sure, but that rate you can get at the bank in a savings account (well, not
quite, but you know what I mean).  The fact is, player investments of this
sort will not be pertinent on the scale of a campaign (which rarely lasts
more than a couple of years).

What I think would be good is a set of guidelines relating riskiness to
returns, and/or a bunch of specific investments which are role-played for
the players to choose from.  Such things as inventions to be marketed, game
companies with new products (ooh, that's a bit close to home), safe or
risky mutual funds and stocks, Lanthanum or Groat Bellies futures, bets on
Haggite races, etc.

So, without further ado;

Return       Investment          Risk   Factors affecting risk
 2-3%       CDs, Savings accounts 1%   General Economic Conditions
 4-6%       Blue Chips, Bonds     2%   General Economic Conditions
 5-8%       Shippiemaes           3%   Specific to Shippiemae, risk/rate
may vary
 5-12%      Individual Ships      20%  Captain's Trading skills, local economy
 10-30%     Wildcat stocks        25%  Commodity availability, economics, etc.
 10-100%    Inventions            30%  Invention viability, market
 10-200%    Futures & Options     60%  Commodity Availability, weather
 20-1000%   Gambling, Startups    90%  Dep. on business., or game.

a "90%" risk means one in ten of these investments fail, losing the capital.

This is just a guess, and anyone who can do better, should.

Hmm, I seem to recall a shareware or freeware game that was a stock trading
game out there somewhere.  It could conceivably be used as the basis for an
in-game investment strategy.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 09:51:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Michael and MJ Houghton wrote:
> 

> In fact, if you consider the Gazelle CE, it has drop tanks, but they
> are not normally expended, so clearly they "work". 

Well we're really talking apples and oranges here...the Gazelle has
'dismountable external' fuel tanks, constructed so as to be a normal
part of the hull, but which can come off in an emergency.

What we're talking about here are much more like the shuttle's external
fuel tank...designed to be a one-use disposable item.

Tanks designed for re-use (like those on the Gazelle) are going to cost
a lot more, be much better armored, and have considerably more
infrastructure, like pumps, grappling rings, etc.

Note, the fragile nature of disposable drop tanks may limit their re-use
under most circumstances..my example of a free trader strapping one on
would involve a great deal of fabrication to make it workable, like
adding additional armor to the tank (it needn't be much...a wrapping of
foil/kevlar, just enough for stop micrometeorites) and some more
permanent fuel fittings.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 13:18:59 EDT
From: MarkPeace <MarkPeace@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

>>>Where is it established that a misjump can keep you in jump space for four
>>>whole weeks?
>> 
>>In the misjump rules, you roll for jump duration. 1d6 weeks. At least
>>in CT. And I thought someone posted that MT was the same.
>
>I couldn't find that in any of my CT rulebooks. You roll a die for direction
>and 1DD for distance, but not, as far as I can find, for duration.

In Starter Edition Traveller it's on page 29 of the rules booklet - section
labelled 'STARSHIP MALFUNCTIONS', subsection 'Misjump'.

Presumably it's also in book 2.

Mark.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:27:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century 

> 
> I don't have my books with me - wasn't there something in High Guard
> or Megatraveller about any fuel hit destroying all drop tanks?

In HG there was a chance of a percentage of the fuel tanks getting damaged 
*OR* shattered.  2 different battle damage results.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:10:48 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

Kevin Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> I don't have my books with me - wasn't there something in High Guard
> or Megatraveller about any fuel hit destroying all drop tanks?

In HG there was a chance of a percentage of the fuel tanks getting damaged 
*OR* shattered.  2 different battle damage results.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, that referred to the internal fuel tanks of the ship. An analysis I've
seen postulated that ships above a certain size were not good designs, as one
hit could crack their fuel tanks and make them immobile missile launch
platforms. The analysis determined that the minimum size ship that could carry
a spinal mount, armor and drives was the maximum practical warship size for
this reason.

I have no idea where I read this analysis - too many tidbits in my brain, I
guess... :)

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:48:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tank glitch? 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Drop Tank glitch? 
...
>>   Heck, why install explosive bolts when dumping them will cost me cash?
>
>1.  If you throw away the tanks after every useage, you *may* end up jumping 
>into a system where you can't get new tanks.  That means, you're stuck there. 
...
>2.  Drop tanks are not as heavy duty as a hull is, so it's easier to hole.  
...
>3.  Way I've seen it played against me is, a shot at the ship is a shot at 
>both the hull and the tanks.  If your tanks are 1/5 the size of the ship, you 
>have a 1 in 5 chance of the other guy's shot hitting your tanks instead of 
>your ship, holing it.  Fuel runs out and you're stuck there.  Enjoy your stay.

  I get the message :) , but for a merchant between peaceful jump-points none
of these issues matter. For adventurers, yes, of course.

>FWIG, the drop tank costs are for *one-shot* tanks.  Not permenantly mounted 
>tanks.  I've always played them that way because it makes *SENSE* to do it 
>that way.  I'm from the school of 'make the players work for an even break'.  
>YMMV.

  The problem arises because the rules don't seem to be aware of any
differentiation between one-shot and multiple use drop tanks. Large
portions of this problem would go away if the difference were made
clear, but that now involves the "lanthanum as grid or coils?" issue.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 11:48:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Drop Tanks in the 12 Century
...
>IMTU, I made civilian drop tanks very vulnerable to battle damage, or
>even incidental damage. Even things like abrupt maneuvers or gas giant
>refueling could snap them right off their pylons. You could hang on to them,
>but they were really designed to strap on once and then dump. I figured
>that since the Gazelle would only drop tanks in an emergency, they were
>more expensive custom military jobs that were tougher.

  I'm not sure that combat liabilities are very relevant to merchants.
I like the rest of it, but the rules don't yet support these ideas.

>External demountable tanks I made tougher and more reliable - I 
>figured that since it took facilities to remove them, they must be
>bolted on very securely.

  This helps address the points others have brought up recently.

>I don't have my books with me - wasn't there something in High Guard
>or Megatraveller about any fuel hit destroying all drop tanks?

  TCS at least, possibly HG.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 21:38:26 +0100
From: inhouse@idecnet.com (inhoJi)
Subject: I need ideas

I only got a couple of responses. However, both were contradictory so I
need further aid and clarifications. What has been your experience?

During character creation, can you get Commissioned and Promoted even
though you do not finish the four year term due to an injury? Say a
character spends three years at a career. One person said no, that these
were end-of-term bonuses. Another person said yes, with penalizing
modifiers, since you could be very lucky or good at your job in those three
years.

Can you go back to an old job (Rogue) after you have been something else
(Agent) with NO modifiers, considering the second time around as a second
term? Or must you treat the second time around as a third career (with the
modifiers that may apply)? (The character was not discharged. His contract
was not renewed after a succesful four year term.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 14:08:50 -0700
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: I need ideas

> During character creation, can you get Commissioned and Promoted even
> though you do not finish the four year term due to an injury? Say a
> character spends three years at a career. One person said no, that these
> were end-of-term bonuses. Another person said yes, with penalizing
> modifiers, since you could be very lucky or good at your job in those three
> years.

IMTU, if it could happen in real life, it can happen during character 
creation. Promotions and commissions would not necessarily happen 
only at the end of a term, unless I'm very much mistaken, so I don't 
see why it couldn't happen prior. Since there is a roll to see how 
many years of the term are served in the event of an injury,  I 
would institute a roll of some sort to see which year the commission 
and then promotion fell (obviously, the promotion could not happen 
prior to the commission, so this would have to be accounted for). If 
the roll came up year 4, you are out of luck. 

 
> Can you go back to an old job (Rogue) after you have been something else
> (Agent) with NO modifiers, considering the second time around as a second
> term? Or must you treat the second time around as a third career (with the
> modifiers that may apply)? (The character was not discharged. His contract
> was not renewed after a succesful four year term.)

Overall, I would think that the second time around would count as a 
third career with the modifiers that apply. As a GM, I might grant an 
exclusion for this under certain circumstances. A rogue career might 
be one of them if the player had a good character concept and 
presented it well to me. I would not allow reverting without penalty 
if I thought my player was just trying to 'beef up' his character.


Suz
Suzette Dollar

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:25:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tank glitch? 

>   I get the message :) , but for a merchant between peaceful jump-points none
> of these issues matter. For adventurers, yes, of course.

Adventurers get bored *QUICK* doing milk runs.
 
> >FWIG, the drop tank costs are for *one-shot* tanks.  Not permenantly mounted 
> >tanks.  I've always played them that way because it makes *SENSE* to do it 
> >that way.  I'm from the school of 'make the players work for an even break'.  
> >YMMV.
> 
>   The problem arises because the rules don't seem to be aware of any
> differentiation between one-shot and multiple use drop tanks. Large
> portions of this problem would go away if the difference were made
> clear, but that now involves the "lanthanum as grid or coils?" issue.

I see it as more an issue of durability.  You want to sell a one-shot product, 
you *won't* build it to last forever.  Gazelle tanks are 'dismountable' tanks 
rather than one-shots.  They're built tougher.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:19:09 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

At 10:11 AM 07/05/98 -0500, Steve Bonneville wrote:

>You might be able to haul more freight if you used custom cargo modules that
>had some internal fuel tankage.  For instance, you could execute a jump-3
>with a custom cargo module and by dropping three tanks if the cargo module
>contained 24 tons of fuel and 56 tons of cargo.  You could also carry two
>of these custom modules in the jump-2 example above, dropping two normal
>fuel tanks.
>
>Of course, you'll have to decide if this is a legitimate way to use a drop
>tank mount point.  I think this looks like a fun way for a ship to work, 
>but the infrastructure requirements (remounting facilities, manufacture of
>tanks and modules, getting fueled tankage where it needs to go, and so on) 
>are fairly significant.

IMO if you are going to be able to load up your drop tank spaces with cargo
modules you're going to have to design your ship with grapples, etc like a
RCES Clipper from TNE.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:31:06 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 

> Kevin Pittsinger wrote:

Kev*E*n, please!!!

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > 
> > I don't have my books with me - wasn't there something in High Guard
> > or Megatraveller about any fuel hit destroying all drop tanks?
> 
> In HG there was a chance of a percentage of the fuel tanks getting damaged 
> *OR* shattered.  2 different battle damage results.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> IIRC, that referred to the internal fuel tanks of the ship. An analysis I've
 seen postulated that ships above a certain size were not good designs, as one
 hit could crack their fuel tanks and make them immobile missile launch
 platforms. The analysis determined that the minimum size ship that could
 carry a spinal mount, armor and drives was the maximum practical warship size
 for this reason.

I see *ZERO* reasons why drop tanks or external dismountables should be immune
 to damage.  And IIRC, the shattered tank hit came from a BFG hit like a meson
 gun.  Lemme dig out my HG & check it, I'll get back to ya.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #469
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 8 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 470



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century
[Fwd: Massive Traveller Sale]
Gene R
Logistics
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: I need ideas
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #469
Re: Investment in Traveller
Extent of trade disruption by Rebellion
Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)
Starport Defense (was Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 15:26:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

In Traveller-digest V1998 #469, Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu> writes:

> So, without further ado;
> 
> Return       Investment          Risk   Factors affecting risk
>  2-3%       CDs, Savings accounts 1%   General Economic Conditions
>  4-6%       Blue Chips, Bonds     2%   General Economic Conditions
>  5-8%       Shippiemaes           3%   Specific to Shippiemae, risk/rate
>                                        may vary
>  5-12%      Individual Ships      20%  Captain's Trading skills, local economy
>  10-30%     Wildcat stocks        25%  Commodity availability, economics, etc.
>  10-100%    Inventions            30%  Invention viability, market
>  10-200%    Futures & Options     60%  Commodity Availability, weather
>  20-1000%   Gambling, Startups    90%  Dep. on business., or game.
> 
> a "90%" risk means one in ten of these investments fail, losing the capital.

I don't follow this.  If 90% means a 1-in-10 chance of failure, then
logically doesn't 1% mean a 99-in-100 chance of failure?  It seems to
me that, based on your chart (which I *really* like, BTW) a 90% risk
means that 9-in-10 will fail, not 1-in-10.

What am I missing?

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 17:27:11 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tanks in the 12th Century

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Well we're really talking apples and oranges here...the Gazelle has
> 'dismountable external' fuel tanks, constructed so as to be a normal
> part of the hull, but which can come off in an emergency.

In the original Gazelle designs from the same era as the TNS article,
I recall them being referred to as "drop tanks".  I'm certain that 
the Gazelle was a 300 ton ship capable of jump-2 without the external
tanks, was jump-4 with the 100-ton tanks, *and* could use the tanks
as drop tanks and get jump-5.  The Fiery variant was streamlined and
did away with the drop tankage, I think.  Have to take a look.

If this is true, I'd assume the same sort of tankage could be used in
the Trimkhana-Brilliance and similar ships.

The type of tankage carried by the Gazelles may have been changed in
designs of the ships for later versions of Traveller.  I don't know.
As I see it, "drop tanks" can be jettisoned, while "dismountable"
tanks, whether internal or external, have to be removed with tools.  

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 17:32:20 -0500
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Massive Traveller Sale]

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Saw this, thought you would want to know



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Path: reader1.cleveland.iagnet.net!streamer1.cleveland.iagnet.net!news2.chicago.iagnet.net!qual.net!iagnet.net!nyd.news.ans.net!newsfeeds.ans.net!news.idt.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!204.156.128.20!news1.best.com!nntp2.ba.best.com!derry.vip.best.com!user
From: derry@jugenstil.com (Michael A. Derry)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.marketplace
Subject: Massive Traveller Sale
Date: 7 May 1998 22:06:43 GMT
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Massive Traveller Sale

Clearing out my 20-year collection.

Classic, Megatraveller, The New Era
GDW, DGP, FASA, Gamelords, etc.

Highlights:
Set of JTAS/Challenge 2-77 (all but #1), for $550
AHL, FFW, Striker, Alien Modules, lots of DGP

<http://www.jugenstil.com/derry/travsale.shtml>

Michael Derry

- --------------0A048D122F6BFE1B3FF3658C--

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 19:14:34 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Gene R

Stephen wrote...
>> Don't start me off on Roddenberry
> Hey, list traffic is low and you got me curious!  What's the problem with
him???

Lets just say I find him and some of his views of the future a little hard to
take. I will grant, however, that the man did a great deal to make SF on TV a
lot more viable, and I was a diehard Trekkie until well into my college years
(the early 70s, for those of you who are curious -- I got to see the show in
its original run).

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 20:41:47 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Logistics

Steven Hudson quotes:
>Subject: Pack animal logistics
>
>>Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 11:58:25 -0700
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #465
>...
>>We rapidly got into an infinite expansion of: to feed the horses you
>>need x mules carrying y*x sacks of grain, and then to feed the horses +
>>x mules you need x + z mules carryinx x*y + z*y sacks. Iterate until
>>they figure out they have to walk in with a few pack mules in tow,
>>eating the ones who carry the grain as you empty their loads.

>  Apparently it worked out to be about six days range for large
>ancient military expeditions before re-victualling, presumably
>by meeting up with the fleet following them along the coast or
>by settling down for some heavy foraging (so much for strategic
>mobility there).

Another option was to conduct the campaign along a river, where you could be
resupplied by barge. See _Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the
Macedonian Army,_ and _Supplying War,_ both, I believe, by M van Creveld.

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:48:58 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Interesting topic.  I'll try to avoid repeating Peter's comments too much.

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:

> Hiya,
>      Having recently come into some money in the game I am playing in
> (thanks Pete) I'm brainstorming a shortlist of constructive ways to spend
> it to give to the captain. Investment is an attractive option, as it covers
> long term contingencies. The question is, of course, what is the likely
> return on investment in Traveller?

That is a different game.  Its called "Travelers" - with one L.  ;-)

>      At first glance, there is no information pertaining to this in the
> rules. But on second glance, I've found two bracketing figures that should
> allow for working out return rates.

I think these 'bracketing' figures are useful to figure out the strength of the
market, assuming a stable market.  Of course, they don't limit the range for
investments and returns.  They do suggest that a 5% return is available for
very low risk investment, which is probably greater than you'll be able to get
in a bank since the market outperforms banks.

WRT Shipping Example:

>      The first is shipping. We all know that to get a ship you need 20%
> down and then pay 1/240th of the cost for 40 years. But that is as a buyer.
> Looking at it from the other end, any sufficiently rich person can act as
> the bank, finance the purchase of a ship for someone, and then be the
> recipient of their payments.
>      So, for example, if you decided to invest in a (MT) Free Trader, you
> would have to put up 29.532 MCr, and would receive 153,813 Cr/month return.

I'm not sure I follow your math here.  Looking at T4, it says the total
financed priceof the ship is 220%.  Since the buyers have to put up the 20%
deposit, that means
the gross return to the bank is 200% of the purchase price, a profit of 100%.
Thus, a 30 MCr loan for a Free Trader will generate 30 MCr in profits in 40
years,
after the principle is paid back.  And I think thats what is missing from your
example
above.  Roughly, your example gives a 5% return/year.

30 MCr * 1/240 * 12 Months = 1.5 MCr / year = 5.0% / year.
Over 40 years, this is 60 MCr.
But you need to subtract the value of the principle loaned, you're out 30 MCr
on day one.  It takes 30 MCr, to put you even.  After that is the return, the
profit.
Thus, the real returns should be divided in 2.  Essentially 0.75 MCr / year
return.
Thats about 2.5% per year.  Seems ridiculously low for such a, IMHO,
risky investment for a starship that might be incredibly difficult to find,
especially
since the money is going to be tied up for so long.  This is practically
charity.  For
this kind of interest rate, you usually are required to sign the contract in
blood and
commit future generations of your family.

Thats the real question, how risky should this loan be?

[snip]

>      The second example in the Traveller's Aid Society. It explicitly
> mentions that they take your 1 MCr initiation fee and invest it. They pay
> out to you 1 high passage every two months, which you can cash in at 90% of
> its value. This works out as a return of 4,500 Cr/month for your 1 MCr
> investment. (Payback is after 18.5 years.)

We don't have enough info to work this one out really.  For instance, can
youtake your money out whenever you want?  If so, then its not a bad
investment.

0.0045MCr/month * 12 months/year = 0.054 MCr/year
This comes out to a 5.4% annual return.

But if you have to wait, well, then its value to you depends on how long you
live.

>      Together these give us a rangeband, from 4,500 to 5,208 Cr/month of
> return on investment that fits in with existing stuff. Personally I would
> just choose 5,000 Cr/month per megacredit as a nice round figure.

As I mentioned, you need to deduct the principle from these figure to see
howmuch return you're really getting.  In the end it comes out pretty low,
which
suggests that these are very secure, low risk investment options, which is odd,

given the nature of spaceflight (I suggest that those numbers for ships were
designed
to make it affordable for players to afford a ship in the beginning of play).
They also
suggest that the interest in a bank savings account would be at least slightly
less,
because the market outperforms banks generally.  Thus, I'd conclude that a good

savings account interest would be about 2%.  That indicates that the value of
money
is relatively low, i.e., not a lot of people are trying to borrow a lot of
money.

If I had cash and was looking to invest it in a Traveller setting, I'd invest in things
that I can keep my eye on.  Real Estate.  Especially in keystone systems that link
mains and trade routes with Gas Giants.  Futures would be a potentially lucrative,
but with new worlds and resources being discovered all the time, extremely risky
given the difficulty of prediction.  Overall, you best returns are going to come from
industries that the economy of an intersteller community depends on: shipbuilding,
weapons, technology (of all kinds) and the resources those industries need. The
market should be able to provide these blue-chip industries for you.  Of course
the market will fluctuate, but given the examples above, I'd guesstimate that
such stable but continually expanding businesses would return average low-risk
market returns of 5-10%.   I'd invest in Anagathics, Fusion + and Jump Drive
Tech.

Of course, I get normally get about 25% with my mutual fund, but that East Asian
Market trouble took it down somewhat.  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:14:57 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> So, without further ado;
>
> Return       Investment          Risk   Factors affecting risk
>  2-3%       CDs, Savings accounts 1%   General Economic Conditions
>  4-6%       Blue Chips, Bonds     2%   General Economic Conditions
>  5-8%       Shippiemaes           3%   Specific to Shippiemae, risk/rate may vary
>  5-12%      Individual Ships      20%  Captain's Trading skills, local economy
>  10-30%     Wildcat stocks        25%  Commodity availability, economics, etc.
>  10-100%    Inventions            30%  Invention viability, market
>  10-200%    Futures & Options     60%  Commodity Availability, weather
>  20-1000%   Gambling, Startups    90%  Dep. on business., or game.

Gambling is not that risky.  It depends on the game.  The Risk and Return
is proportional to the probability.  For example, in Craps, assuming you stick to the
pass line bet, the house only has a 10% advantage or so.


For game purposes:

Risk:   (A Trading Task)         Return %:
None                    12-            1d3 + Broker Skill                1-3%
Low                      11-            3 + 1d3 + Broker Skill          4-6%
Fair                        9-             3 + 1d6 + Broker Skill          4-9%
Moderate               6-             2d6 + Broker Skill                2-12%
High                       3-             (2d6 + Broker Skill) * 10      20-120%
Extreme Risk          0-             (2d6 + Broker Skill) * 100    200-1200%

These investments would require minimum duration of One year.


Just an idea

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 21:22:00 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: I need ideas

inhoJi wrote:

> I only got a couple of responses. However, both were contradictory so I
> need further aid and clarifications. What has been your experience?
>
> During character creation, can you get Commissioned and Promoted even
> though you do not finish the four year term due to an injury? Say a
> character spends three years at a career. One person said no, that these
> were end-of-term bonuses. Another person said yes, with penalizing
> modifiers, since you could be very lucky or good at your job in those three
> years.

Since you can be sent to Officer Candidate School directly from Basic
Training,commission is not necessarily and end-of-term bonus.  Most promotions
have a
minimum time requirement.  However, since this double whammy of commission
and promotion can only happen once in a career, and happens at the lowest
commissioned rank, I think one year should be enough between commission and
promotion.  Thus, Commission happens during year one of a term, Promotion
during
year two.  Of course, the needs of the military may require an earlier
promotion.

> Can you go back to an old job (Rogue) after you have been something else
> (Agent) with NO modifiers, considering the second time around as a second
> term? Or must you treat the second time around as a third career (with the
> modifiers that may apply)? (The character was not discharged. His contract
> was not renewed after a succesful four year term.)

I think Marc's view is that characters should have only one career.  While I'm
noton board with that, I wouldn't allow a character to go back to a career
already
experienced, however minimally.  I would stop the character generation when
this
happens.  I've stopped several characters after they were discharged from first

career and either didn't qualify or failed enlistment in any other, including
the draft.
I think thats a good idea overall, else you end up with a Traveller universe
crowded
with 34 year old ex-officers.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 12:39:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #469

At 05:31 PM 7/05/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 12:31:09 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
>
>What I think would be good is a set of guidelines relating riskiness to
>returns, and/or a bunch of specific investments which are role-played for
>the players to choose from.  Such things as inventions to be marketed, game
>companies with new products (ooh, that's a bit close to home), safe or
>risky mutual funds and stocks, Lanthanum or Groat Bellies futures, bets on
>Haggite races, etc.
>
>So, without further ado;
>
>Return       Investment          Risk   Factors affecting risk
> 2-3%       CDs, Savings accounts 1%   General Economic Conditions
> 4-6%       Blue Chips, Bonds     2%   General Economic Conditions
> 5-8%       Shippiemaes           3%   Specific to Shippiemae, risk/rate
>may vary
> 5-12%      Individual Ships      20%  Captain's Trading skills, local
economy
> 10-30%     Wildcat stocks        25%  Commodity availability, economics,
etc.
> 10-100%    Inventions            30%  Invention viability, market
> 10-200%    Futures & Options     60%  Commodity Availability, weather
> 20-1000%   Gambling, Startups    90%  Dep. on business., or game.
>
>a "90%" risk means one in ten of these investments fail, losing the capital.
>
>This is just a guess, and anyone who can do better, should.
>
>Hmm, I seem to recall a shareware or freeware game that was a stock trading
>game out there somewhere.  It could conceivably be used as the basis for an
>in-game investment strategy.
>
>Pete

I think Fanniemae comes from Federal National Mortgage Annuities or
something like that.

There is another set of more macro economic data we have access to - the
investment rules in Pocket Empires. I think they deliver a slightly lower
real rate of interest than the above indidcates, but I havenet done the
exhaustive analysis on the numbers you would need to assess the reyurn on
investment on planetary infrastructure.

Me, I like 3% plus risk premiums as a nice round number - it's pretty close
to historical real rates of interest as well. Anything on top of that
should include risk premiums.

Other things to consider when investing in a ship are things like an
"Owners Representitive" on board - typically one of those big ex-Marine
types who is there to make sure the crew dont steal the ship.

Other options to minimise skip risk include finding jobs for the crews
family on your estate, or hiring the entire crew from one planet and having
a long-term relationship with the planetary government.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:52:24 +1100
From: "Steve Rennell" <software@spis.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Hi all, 

This is my first post to the TML, and I've been lurking for a couple 
of weeks, please forgive me if this has been hashed out before.

Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
> Looking at T4, it says the total financed priceof the ship is 220%.
>  Since the buyers have to put up the 20% deposit, that means the
> gross return to the bank is 200% of the purchase price, a profit of
> 100%. 

Slight error. The Bank only Puts up 80% of the purchase price so 
their return is actually 250%

> Thus, a 30 MCr loan for a Free Trader will generate 30 MCr in
> profits in 40 years, after the principle is paid back.  

Nope. The 30MCr loan will be for a 37.5 Mcr Ship, with a payback of 
75Mcr over 40 years, or 45Mcr profit. 

> And I think thats what is missing from your example above. 
> Roughly, your example gives a 5% return/year. 

I've examined the situation from a overall point of view. If I 
as a single investor or company have enough cash to buy a ship 
outright, and I'm expecting 5% return on my investment, how much do I 
need to charge per ton to get that return. I also assume that I want 
to amortise the price of the Ship over 40 years, so when it needs 
replacing I can replace it. 

Say I have a 100Mcr Ship (nice round numbers) with 200T cargo 
(nearly the CT stats for a fat trader). Assume 25 trips per year, 
assume 100% usage of capacity

5 Mcr to cover the profit expectations.
2.5 Mcr to cover amortisation,
 200x25 = 5000 ton-trips of available cargo space,

I need to charge 1500 Cr per ton just to meet my profit 
expectations. That isn't counting fuel, wages, lifesupport or annual 
maintanance. If I assume 75% usage of capacity the required profit 
per carted ton goes up to 2000 Cr.

This will vary quite wildly on the ship design. I've seen some 
designed which were _very expensive_ with quite small cargo bays, and 
they would need to charge more to meet profit expectations.

I believe figuring a return like this would drastically change the 
sorts of ships that are economical, and indeed the cost of moving 
stuff.

I figure passage (low high and mid) at having to return their tonnage 
equivalent (x0.5 for low, x4 for high or mid in large Staterooms x2 
for small staterooms).

I've started collecting starship designs to analyse this, 
particularly wrt to the difference between J1 and J2, but I've not 
had enough time recently. It starts to look like a J2 ship will have 
to charge quite a lot per ton, sometimes more than twice a J1 ship, 
but then, it gets there next week, not next month.

Also turnaround time at port is dramatically important. If you can 
find a local trader who will hunt up cargos for you before you get 
there, cutting your turnaround down to a day or two to pick up cargos 
and passengers, rather than the normal week, then although your costs 
haven't dropped any, your number of trips has gone up, so your 
required profit per trip has gone down, meaning you can charge less 
and still make a reasonable return.

Has anyone else looked at this sort of thing? Is anyone else 
interested in it?

I get the impression that people have taken the 1000Cr per T as a 
base assumption and tried to figure out if a ship is profitable from 
there, whereas I'm taking the profitability requirement as an 
assumption and working back to a required cost of shipping.

I'm still trying to get my head around what the numbers look 
like if you expect 1 ship in 20 to be written off/destroyed before 
the amortisation period. Whether banks would require insurance, and  
the cost of insurance? I've heard of people paying 110% premiums 
(i.e. for a helicopter worth 100K, they were paying 110K per year 
insurance, but then, they crashed about one a year...) but that 
depends on how dangerous the route is, what the chances of breaking 
something is, and what conditions the insurance companies would make. 
 "Hey captain, I don't think we should buy unrefined fuel, jump 
from inside 100D or miss our annual maintenance, the insurance 
contract is void if we do, and as for not meeting minmum crew 
requirements..."

I'm not sure that this has a big effect on how you design your trader 
ships, but I think it should. Gimme time to think about it some more.

Steve




Software is never having to say you're done

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 18:59:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Extent of trade disruption by Rebellion

Hello,
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
...
>>  Seeings as trade largely stopped outside the safes, then
>>_something_ was wrong.
>
>If you look at the map, the "safes" was most of the Imeperium.

All totals following exclude the Spinward Marches.
From "Survival Margin" maps;  
  In 1119 around 7-8 sectors area are "safes" - a bit under
half of the Imperium*. Available shipping tonnage is down
to 80% of pre-war levels.
  By 1123 only about four sectors in area are "safes", in six
clusters (p. 38).
  By 1125 total "safes" are only about half of a sector. Total
tonnage available probably 45% of pre-Rebellion levels.

 * This doesn't include areas that have been heavily damaged but
are currently under effective control; thus, the effective zones
of undamaged commerce infrastructure are somewhat smaller still.

>Commerce raiding was in specific areas (to some degree the
>areas where stuff was being brought to the front).  Nor do
>I know of any quotes that say trade "largely stopped" (there

  My phrase, but by 1125 effectively true. As you point out the
large-scale requisitioning of much of the remainder for military
support would further reduce the stock available for civilian
purposes.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 20:08:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (shorter)
...
>commerce raiding wasn't the point.  If you have an area
>where all trade is being suppressed, I will agree that
>the non-existant trade won't be converted to use new
>technology.

  That's a tautology.

>>>I'm refering ones that can be built with a portion of those
>>>resources freed up by using the cheaper shipping method everywhere
>>>to support those areas where shipping is being hard pressed.
>
>>  The Third Imperium is a socialist command economy? Megacorps
>>saving money will donate it to the Navy to build spare Fleet
>>Tankers?
>
>No.  The Imperium will use it as an excuse to raise taxes, or
>require megacorps to support their own ships....

  The Imperium will raise taxes arbitrarily to buy new Navy tankers
to support the potential war-time demands of the civil economy?
Possibly, but the mega-corps are going to fight that tooth and nail,
and probably respond by not investing very much at all in the new
tech - putting implementation back by most of a ship life-time
cycle (i.e., switch-over only as ships wear out, and then only as
ships justify bringing new routes into the system). 

  This is also the same Imperium that can't or won't raise taxes
to pay for adequate internal security patrols by light warships;
again, economic analysis of the 3I data suggests that established
revenues are more than adequate, anyway.

>>>Of course they also might be able to just move the stations
>>>under plantery protection until the fleet shows up.  Or
...

  A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage
when engaging in a long range sniping duel with slow or stationary
targets. Thus, only ships (not stations or deep meson sites) can
participate; a slow merchant vessel that can't hide (by landing?)
is easily destroyed. Admittedly most of the combat systems in use
(although not currently in development) don't reflect this.

>I don't think that a raiding fleet passing through is suficient
>to even destroy areas under plentary protection.

  A raiding squadron with only a single heavy warship can easily
gut a station or high-port at little risk to itself. A lightly
or un-defended site (most systems - though not important ones -
by your own piracy debate opinions, however contested) can be
slagged by a single Gazelle equivalent, obviously.

>>>mechanism will be big at all.  A fleet jumping in may
>>>have a tough time finding them if you just hide them
>>>on the surface of a small asteroid.
>>
>>  Any ships jumping in needing fuel are now hosed.
>
>As would any ships that were refueling at a gas giant.

  There might be more gas giants to choose from

>>  Again, without delving too deeply into piracy, the lack of
>>an effective internal security regime (serving as a de facto
>>anti-piracy force) increases the vulnerability of a jump-fuel
>>station system.   The costs that are weighed in these decisions
>>are also not strictly economic, as any observation of criminal
>>law and its enforcement would show.
>
>I agree that all costs get weighted in.  But the precieved
>need needs to be there.

  But how can you differentiate between anti-piracy patrols,
commerce/anti-commerce training missions, and other dedicated 
internal security operations? Isn't the relative guarantee of
an ability to control its territory a defining characteristic
of a government and crucial in establishing its legitimacy?

>>>> - even though numerous
>>>>analyses of the canonical Trav Imperium have indicated otherwise
>>>>(none of which were sufficiently refuted)
>
>>>If you are refering to what I'm thinking of, this is just
>>>one point of view, not a statement of fact....
>
>>  Analyses using Traveller background info and approved (though
>>faulty in various opinions - certainly imperfect) economic stats
>>and models produced results indicating the level of Imperial
>>and Colonial Navy strengths. Even absurdly low allocations to
>>internal security patrols gave promises of exceptionally high
>>levels of success against stereotypical piracy. Choosing to
>>argue with the results is a failure to attempt to correct the
>>errors in the original model.
>
>Yes, I was right.  This is something that is a point of view
>and not fact.  Many of the assumption that those analyses
>were fundamentally based on were disputted.

  That's "yes, you were referring to the analyses you thought".
The fact that all of the number crunching exercises by others,
along with similar conceptual explorations, were not to your
liking doesn't make them wrong. Disputed, yes, but not refuted. 

  If you don't like the assumptions in TCS/Striker, or some of
the implications of high-pop worlds for the Imperiums structure,
then post suggestions for changing or fixing them. The validity
of those sources and their results can't be questioned very
meaningfully until then.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 00:21:34 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Starport Defense (was Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)

Steven Hudson wrote:
 A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage

> when engaging in a long range sniping duel with slow or stationary
> targets. Thus, only ships (not stations or deep meson sites) can
> participate; a slow merchant vessel that can't hide (by landing?)
> is easily destroyed. Admittedly most of the combat systems in use
> (although not currently in development) don't reflect this.
>
> >I don't think that a raiding fleet passing through is suficient
> >to even destroy areas under plentary protection.
>
>   A raiding squadron with only a single heavy warship can easily
> gut a station or high-port at little risk to itself. A lightly
> or un-defended site (most systems - though not important ones -
> by your own piracy debate opinions, however contested) can be
> slagged by a single Gazelle equivalent, obviously.

So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
itself.  i.e. Jammers and hiding against a much higher signature body.
From their hidden position, they could then draw the attacking ships into
a killzone.  Of course, once a ship gets a lock, they could back off and
"nuke em from orbit". By that time, SDB's could get to the primary
weapons platforms.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #470
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 8 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 471



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #469
Re: Starport Defense
Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)
Re: Investment in Traveller
Returns of investment
Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
Re: Returns of investment
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Investment in Traveller
re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Starport Defense

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 16:47:17 +1100
From: "Steve Rennell" <software@spis.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #469

> Other things to consider when investing in a ship are things like an
> "Owners Representitive" on board - typically one of those big
> ex-Marine types who is there to make sure the crew dont steal the
> ship.

Everyone has to sleep sometime. Unless the Crew aren't prepared to 
whack someone to get the ship, this won't help much.

Buying a ship slow enough to outrun (J1) with Xboats, and giving it a 
limited Route (like a 5 planet loop or somesuch) is a reasonable 
pick, because they don't get far before they get noticed.

> Other options to minimise skip risk include finding jobs for the
> crews family on your estate, or hiring the entire crew from one
> planet and having a long-term relationship with the planetary
> government.

This is the best bet. Social ties!

Steve

Second law of programming: Anything that can go wrong wi
sendmail: segmentation violation -- core dumped

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 22:25:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Starport Defense

>From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Starport Defense (was Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)
...
>>   A raiding squadron with only a single heavy warship can easily
>> gut a station or high-port at little risk to itself. A lightly
>> or un-defended site (most systems - though not important ones -
>> by your own piracy debate opinions, however contested) can be
>> slagged by a single Gazelle equivalent, obviously.
>
>So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
>venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
>locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
>itself.  i.e. Jammers and hiding against a much higher signature body.
>>From their hidden position, they could then draw the attacking ships into
>a killzone.  Of course, once a ship gets a lock, they could back off and
>"nuke em from orbit". By that time, SDB's could get to the primary
>weapons platforms.

  I'm at a bit of a loss here, as I lack the background to figure
out how you can mask a downport or an immobile space station. I'll
assume that attackers are going to know where such a facility is,
although the most urgent targets may be star-freighters in orbit.

  The freighters are screwed, of course, even if they have 1-G drives.
Jumping from the planets far side within 100 diameters is probably
their best bet before the battlecruisers escorts mop them up or hand
off missiles onto them.

  As for a station, Det-laser missiles aren't a threat with moderate PD
(and power shouldn't be a problem with non-military systems shut down).
KKM's are, of course, a whole different debate, but active defense by
auxiliaries or counter-missiles may help a lot.

  However, a big capital class intruder (call it a BC in the Dreadnought
era sense) is going to hammer you with a really ugly spinal mount, and
against a stationary target, missing is effectively impossible. Even if
the target has similar armament, it will be largely unable to score hits
out at its effective performance (damage) envelope due to the targets
evasion (for meson weapons the odds are ludicrous)

  It's a bit like a fortress like Corregidor (sp?) - with guns it can
duel OK, but torpedoes without homing systems don't work worth a damn
against moving targets at long range.

  Others on the list can provide the target solutions more readily
than I. Mind you, the above ignores the turning issue, but even 
changes in velocity along the axis of thrust can lead to the same end.

  Now, going out with SDB's either to scrub secondaries and escorts
(if small) or take down the BC (around battle-rider class "SDB's")
makes perfect sense, as the defenders don't pay for fuel tankage,
jump drives, and the systems that are proportionally based around
those requirements.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 7 May 1998 23:41:04 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)

Thu, 07 May 1998 20:08:54 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>commerce raiding wasn't the point.  If you have an area
>>where all trade is being suppressed, I will agree that
>>the non-existant trade won't be converted to use new
>>technology.

>  That's a tautology.

No, it's a cogent point.

>>No.  The Imperium will use it as an excuse to raise taxes, or
>>require megacorps to support their own ships....

>  The Imperium will raise taxes arbitrarily to buy new Navy tankers
>to support the potential war-time demands of the civil economy?

I don't know if its "arbitrary" but sure.

>Possibly, but the mega-corps are going to fight that tooth and nail,

Well, they have a stake in that civilian economy.  If their
shipping doesn't have enough disruption that they see the
need, then clearly the system is workable.

>and probably respond by not investing very much at all in the new
>tech

They will if the savings in new tech are greater than the
taxes.

>  This is also the same Imperium that can't or won't raise taxes
>to pay for adequate internal security patrols by light warships;

Don't put words in my mouth.  They won't raise taxes to
pay for internal security potrols that are seen as being
justified by the need.

>again, economic analysis of the 3I data suggests that established
>revenues are more than adequate, anyway.

It is not the absolute revenues.  Its they need.  If you
took that approach, you would find that there is an
infinite number of things that you could spend your money
on that you can "afford" if you look at them in isolation.

>>>>Of course they also might be able to just move the stations
>>>>under plantery protection until the fleet shows up.  Or

>  A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage
>when engaging in a long range sniping duel with slow or stationary
>targets. Thus, only ships (not stations or deep meson sites) can
>participate; a slow merchant vessel that can't hide (by landing?)
>is easily destroyed. Admittedly most of the combat systems in use
>(although not currently in development) don't reflect this.

They don't sit in the open and try and run.  They sit under
protection and come out when the convoy shows up.

>>I agree that all costs get weighted in.  But the precieved
>>need needs to be there.

>  But how can you differentiate between anti-piracy patrols,
>commerce/anti-commerce training missions, and other dedicated
>internal security operations? Isn't the relative guarantee of
>an ability to control its territory a defining characteristic
>of a government and crucial in establishing its legitimacy?

Well, there are a number of differences.  War time always
uses resources that are saved up during peace time, in
war time you control commerce in both time and space (with
convoys, protected routes, etc.) while peace time commerce
is more scattered, third, since the commerce raiding is
occuring more fequently than piracy, it _is_ seen as worth
more resources (if piracy was getting up the Rebellion levels
of commerce raiding, then you really would see the kind of
unquestioning investment in stopping it that people invoke).

>>Yes, I was right.  This is something that is a point of view
>>and not fact.  Many of the assumption that those analyses
>>were fundamentally based on were disputted.

>  That's "yes, you were referring to the analyses you thought".
>The fact that all of the number crunching exercises by others,
>along with similar conceptual explorations, were not to your
>liking doesn't make them wrong. Disputed, yes, but not refuted.

That is an _opinion_.  If found them quite refuted.

>  If you don't like the assumptions in TCS/Striker, or some of
>the implications of high-pop worlds for the Imperiums structure,
>then post suggestions for changing or fixing them.

It wasn't the assumption in the books, it was the assumptions
in the analysis.


____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 02:55:30 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Steve Rennell wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> This is my first post to the TML, and I've been lurking for a couple
> of weeks, please forgive me if this has been hashed out before.
>
> Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
> > Looking at T4, it says the total financed priceof the ship is 220%.
> >  Since the buyers have to put up the 20% deposit, that means the
> > gross return to the bank is 200% of the purchase price, a profit of
> > 100%.
>
> Slight error. The Bank only Puts up 80% of the purchase price so
> their return is actually 250%

Good point.

[snip the rest of the discussion about how much you need to charge for
cargo, etc.]

I can see the value of doing such research, but I think that ultimately, the
simplified approach in the Traveller rules are best.  Since, if we were to be
really honest, the idea of interstellar economies, with new planets and
resources and goods being continually discovered and exploited, the whole idea
of money is jeopardized.
What standard is there to base currency on?  Lanthanum?  And what good is a
currency like an Imperial Credit outside the Imperium?  All this makes
the viability of markets and currencies very questionable.

Better to not even go there.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 10:48:26 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Returns of investment

Thu, 07 May 1998 20:48:58 -0400 Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:

>30 MCr * 1/240 * 12 Months = 1.5 MCr / year = 5.0% / year.
>Over 40 years, this is 60 MCr.
>But you need to subtract the value of the principle loaned, you're out 30 MCr
>on day one.  It takes 30 MCr, to put you even.  After that is the return, the
>profit.
>Thus, the real returns should be divided in 2.  Essentially 0.75 MCr / year
>return.
>Thats about 2.5% per year.  Seems ridiculously low for such a, IMHO,
>risky investment for a starship that might be incredibly difficult to find,
>especially
>since the money is going to be tied up for so long.  This is practically
>charity.  For
>this kind of interest rate, you usually are required to sign the contract in
>blood and
>commit future generations of your family.

I'm afraid all this is wrong. It's been a long time since university, but I did some calculations about this several years ago and arrived at this concerning starship loans:

You can actually leave the 20% downpayment out of the picture, because these money are never borrowed - they are provided by the buyer here and now and never enters the loan as such.

Thus, the loan is an annuity, with payments per month equal to:

B=(Li(1+i)^M)/(((1+i)^M)-1),

where B are payments per month, L is the size of the loan, i is the interest and M is the number of months the loan is running.

This is the standard formula for annuities. When figuring returns of such loans, you have to figure in the present value of the payments - 1000Cr in 40 years are not worth nearly as much as 1000Cr today, hence the rather complex formula.

We can plug in the values B=1/120, L=1, M=480. If it was possible to solve an equation of the 480th degree, we would be able to find i. Although no analytical solution exists, an approximation gives i=0.33% per month, or cirka 4% pro anno.

This assumes a very stable economy, but fits pretty well with the CT era (maybe not in the Marches, though). A 4% REAL return on investment is not considered bad (not even in the real world). Interest is usually comprised of real return, risk premium and compensation for inflation. If the Credit is untouched by inflation, then only the risk premium remains to be subtracted from the four percent to arrive at the real return.

Maybe the Imperium has created a ship's loan guarantee foundation to keep investors risk free. Thus, the Imperium would bear all the risk, but this might be a good investment overall, as this keeps starship loans down and then allows for more interstellar traffic.

Such a foundation would then remove the risk element from the return, making the 4% the real return of investment.

Just a thought.

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Fri,  8 May 98 08:58:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

	After much thought, and with no little trepidation I might add, I
thought I'd take a stab at laying out the evolution Vilani cuisines.  BTW Loren
I am assuming that the info on Vland as laid out in the MT Vilani & Vargr book
is still canon.  So here goes... ;)

	Essentially the basic Shugilii processes were given to the early Vilani
by the Ancients for the use of those humans not part of the Ancient
settlements.  Thus Vilani culinary arts started with a unified core of
principles, concepts and processes that were then adapted and expanded on by
the pockets of isolated Vilani during the 200,000 years of Ancient War Machines
fighting the last remnants of the Final War on Vland.
	The First serious developments of an extensive agriculture and
civilizations first occured along the flood plain of the Degar River of the
Lugikad Continent.  Almost at once the new varieties of food sources and the
exploding population forced alterations to traditional Shugilii methods.  But
with new resources came something unusual for the Vilani of the time, wealth
and time.  Until this point most foods had been utilitarian at best, but with
time and wealth the demand for new and different food arose.
	This brought emphasis on fine dining brought about the first examples
of the now distinct Ashkige Cuisine as it is still known today.  Noted for it's
mix of mixture of tubers, grain derived noodles, preferance for fish over other
meats and the abundant use of seasonings from various trees and plants only
found originally in the Ashkige mountain ranges.  As the early population
expanded out from the Degar River flood plains the lack of created a
nutritional problem.  This was solved by early seashore settlements that
produced salt in large quantities, thus allowing for salting of fish for long
term storage and transportation.  Creating the final element, Ashkige Cuisine
requires that it's standard table not carry salt since the fish provides all
that is necessary.
	Seashore settlements and fish means boats and that leads to seaborne
exploration.  Inevitably as fishing ships followed the coastline they passed
the formidable Ashkige mountain range that divides the continent of Lugikad to
reach the fabled western half.  Settlement here ran into new plants and animals
and surprising lack of previously familiar types.  Also there were new sources
of seasoning and vast herds of edible land animals.  This coupled with the lack
of time (this originally was a frontier) created a new style the <Rob, Kenji: I
need something that stands for Western Desert> Cuisine.  Noted for the
predominance of grain based and baked foods, with large portions of meats and
grain based liquids with alcohol <Guys what the word for beer and/or wine?> due
to the original problems with pure waters supplies.
	With ships carrying increased amounts of goods and voyages of
exploration now yet another Cuisine developed based almost exclusively foods
drawn from the seas.  Ishimaga Cuisine, named for the sea in which it was born
relies heavily on fish and seafoods as it's base but then expands on them with
<name for a seaweed guys> which is a surprisingly edible surface growing plant
that moves with the wind and waves to provide a flour to make unleavened bread
and biscuts.  It was in fact from some unknown ship plying it's trade in these
waters that the effects of <this deserves a specific word guys> sodium
bicarbonate (baking soda which mimics yeast in making flours "rise") that
revolutionized the cuisine with it's baked fish loaves.
	These three Cuisines were what sufficed in the decades that followed as
exploration charted the coasts of the other continents and islands of Vland.
Yet around the time of the first settlements of Khii Eshkhima, specifically
towards the Edamar (huge fresh water inland sea) and the southern extents of
Kuragan's Jungle.  The development of the area produced enormous wealth and
demands for novel forms of food as a result taking advantage of the vast new
sources of foods.  Unfortunately as the Shugilii of the time investigated them
most proved to be worthless or lethally dangerous no matter how much processing
was done, though a great many new medicine did result from the experiments.
	The one thing the Shugilii did discover was harmless edible dyes from a
number of roots.  This lead to the development of Edamar Cuisine, noted for a
blending of Ashkige, <Western Desert> and Ishimaga Cuisines in novel ways but
with extraordinary emphasis on the presentation of the meal.  Edamar Cuisine is
noted for it's often stunning visual appearance.  Jokes about Edamar Cuisine
having taken the traditional and dressed it up in flashy new clothing are
heartily despised by Shugilii who specialize in this Cuisine since they've been
old for the past 10,000 years!
	Expansion into the Dikaai desert (steppe truthfully) of the Khii
Eshkhima continent brought about a problem for the Shugilii there.  The travel
times were difficult and the food source not only limited but often of poor
quality.  The main sources were herding animals and various water retaining
deep rooting grasses.  Often bland or tasting just wrong in the mouth the
Shugilii here quickly began importing large quantities of spices and Dikaai
Cuisine was born, noted for it's highly spiced meats and stews along with
imported grains for unleavened breads and biscuts which are also highly spiced.
This lasted for almost a century until a Shugilii noticed that the milk the
herding animals gave could be fairly easily treated and then used.  This lead
directly to the development of cheeses which are now a hallmark of Dikaai
Cuisine.
	As settlement of Vland continued and technology progressed the blending
of Cuisines and techniques amongst the Shugilii began to erode the distinctions
between the various Cuisines.  Yet it was precisely at this point that two new
distinct types emerged and that the <need a word to signify a culinary
standards authority/committee> emerged.
	The first was on rural Uhshirud Kiigi, tropical even by Vland standards
the discovery by local Shugilii of <another name guys, a bean which when
treated gives a coffee/cocoa flavoring> and <fugus which works on rotten milk
to catalyze it into safe liquid base stock, thickness of which depend on
various factors> which when combined lead directly to Uhshirud Cuisine.  Noted
for it's bewildering variety of sweet unleavened breads and thick soups which
range from thin and bland to so severely spiced even those raised on Dikaai
Cuisine find them too hot!
	Then there was Alashad with it's cooler climate and extensive
settlements.  With so many people the Shugilii there found themselves unable to
maintain traditional and often time consuming methods.  It was here that a
great deal of the first scientific research was done into Shugilii practices,
nutrition and food sources was done.  The result was a more homogenized
Cuisine, noted for well balanced portions, specific formats of meals and a
blending utilitarian and convience.
	Thus as the <word for a culinary standards authority/committee> emerged
the following Cuisines existed and were codified into the standards which
Shugilii practice even today.


Ashkige Cuisine - Think noodles, lots and LOTS of steamed and boiled veggies
with fish like crazy!  Some other meats and boiled/treated grains together as
side dishes.  Remember, NO SALT SHAKERS!  The fish is salted to death. ;)

<Western Desert> Cuisine - Think biscuts, hard flat unleavened travel breads
with lots of roasted and other wise cooked meat.  Wine and beer are Standard
with every meal and the sauces to "dress" the meals are even mildly alcoholic.
Those grasses and plains veggies as the standard side dish but otherwise
smoked/cooked meats and sausages.

Ishimaga Cuisine - Hard tack and lots of unleavened breads with fish and sea
vegetables.  They are past masters at doing things with breads, putting things
into them and otherwise making the meal out of bread.  Though I didn't mention
it I presume some kind of alcoholic drink with each meal as well for safety
against bad water in the early days. ;)

Edamar Cuisine - Ultimate "thief" Cuisine it borrows and steals from everybody
and then dresses it up to look mouth watering. ;) When the first Terran Chef
showed up on Vland these Shugilii were the only ones to go out and talk to him
I'd be willing to bet. ;)

Dikaai Cuisine - Think tex/mex with an attitude! ;) Then add in a French love
of cheeses and cream sauces.  Not spice it up some more with exotic flavoring.
These guys make the hottest Curries taste bland!

Uhshirud Cuisine - Big on soups and stews, very heavily spiced too.  They also
have great sweet drinks and sours.  Greatest range and variety of flavors and
tastes.  Side dishes are big on raw bulk type foods, especially for dipping
into the soups and stews.  These are NOT neat eating foods. ;)

Alashad - Think MacDonalds, but with a century or two to develop and extend the
menu.  It's all good for you, you could almost number the dinners, well
balanced, nutritionally sound, conviently packaged... and ultimately BORING!


	That gets it up to pre-spaceflight Vland.  Thoughts and comments?

	BTW you may have noticed I kept pointing out that the breads were
unleavened?  Bread is a Wonderful, one of the best ways ever discovered to pack
vital nutrients into the body.  But the Vilani don't have yeast ;) which means
they are fairly limited in what they can do with grains and flours.  Baking
soda only gets you so far you understand.

	I suspect the first Terran cook to set foot on Vland and show off
things like yeast, potatoes, corn, wheat and the like to the Shugilii is either
gonna get worshiped or tortured to death!  Which brings up a good point, the
Vilani ARE going to import these things onto the various worlds they settled.
Perhaps not by choice but the Terrans will bring them and that means they're
going to effect the 3I. ;)

	Somethings to think about hmmm?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 05:58:54 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Returns of investment

Mark Seemann wrote:

> Thu, 07 May 1998 20:48:58 -0400 Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> wrote:
>
> >30 MCr * 1/240 * 12 Months = 1.5 MCr / year = 5.0% / year.
> >Over 40 years, this is 60 MCr.
> >But you need to subtract the value of the principle loaned, you're out 30 MCr
> >on day one.  It takes 30 MCr, to put you even.  After that is the return, the
> >profit.
> >Thus, the real returns should be divided in 2.  Essentially 0.75 MCr / year
> >return.
> >Thats about 2.5% per year.  Seems ridiculously low for such a, IMHO,
> >risky investment for a starship that might be incredibly difficult to find,
> >especially
> >since the money is going to be tied up for so long.  This is practically
> >charity.  For
> >this kind of interest rate, you usually are required to sign the contract in
> >blood and
> >commit future generations of your family.
>
> I'm afraid all this is wrong. It's been a long time since university, but I did some calculations about this several years ago and arrived at this concerning starship loans:

I never actually said it was right in the real world.  I was using the figures
that are in T4. It says, total financed cost of a ship to the buyer is 220% of
cost.  The buyer pays 20% up front.  Borrows 80% of the cost.  Repays 200% of
the cost.  The bank loaning the 80% of the cost thus receives 250% return over
40 years (200%/80%).  If the banks loan was for 100MCr, it will receive 250
MCr.  This puts it in a position 150Mcr greater than when it loaned the money.
That is essentially equivalent to receiving 3.75 MCr/year in profit (3.75%).
(of course this whole discussion has assumed no inflation and a stable market).

> Thus, the loan is an annuity, with payments per month equal to:
>
> B=(Li(1+i)^M)/(((1+i)^M)-1),
>
> where B are payments per month, L is the size of the loan, i is the interest and M is the number of months the loan is running.
>
> We can plug in the values B=1/120, L=1, M=480. If it was possible to solve an equation of the 480th degree, we would be able to find i. Although no analytical solution exists, an approximation gives i=0.33% per month, or cirka 4% pro anno.

My figure of 3.75% is close enough to your figure of ~4% that I'll take it without the annuities calculation.

> Maybe the Imperium has created a ship's loan guarantee foundation to keep investors risk free. Thus, the Imperium would bear all the risk, but this might be a good investment overall, as this keeps starship loans down and then allows for more interstellar traffic.
>
> Such a foundation would then remove the risk element from the return, making the 4% the real return of investment.

I don't see that working.

I think the reason interest rate on starships is so low, is so that beginning characters can pool their resources to buy one.  Because of the inherent risk involved in starships, if it were my bank, the interest rates would be higher and I'd require a much larger down payment.  Its just too easy for a ship to disappear.  They'd also have required maintenance checks are part of the deal so that I could minimize the risks of a
misjump.  Heck, I'd probably want to review the log each year to make sure the buyers weren't abusing the ship.  And not even the Imperial Marines would mess with my Repo Men.

Or better yet, I'd make them carry a huge insurance policy.  There's the real danger: the Insurance Companies!  Fred Johnson: Interstellar Insurance Agent.  If there's evidence you visited an amber zone: extra premiums.  If there's evidence you visited a red zone: policy revoked!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 07:57:23 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

>In Traveller-digest V1998 #469, Peter H. Brenton <pbrenton@mit.edu> writes:
>
>> So, without further ado;
>>
>> Return       Investment          Risk   Factors affecting risk
>>  2-3%       CDs, Savings accounts 1%   General Economic Conditions
[snip]
>>  20-1000%   Gambling, Startups    90%  Dep. on business., or game.
>>
>> a "90%" risk means one in ten of these investments fail, losing the capital.
>
>I don't follow this.  If 90% means a 1-in-10 chance of failure, then
>logically doesn't 1% mean a 99-in-100 chance of failure?
[snip]
>What am I missing?

My tendancy to Typos,  90% risk means a *9 in 10* chance the investment
will fail.  High return, high risk.

Mea Culpa.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:47:47 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

First off, Bloo said;
>[snip the rest of the discussion about how much you need to charge for
>cargo, etc.]
>
>I can see the value of doing such research, but I think that ultimately,
>the simplified approach in the Traveller rules are best.  Since, if we
>were to be really honest, the
>idea of interstellar economies, with new planets and resources and goods being
>continually discovered and exploited, the whole idea of money is jeopardized.
>What standard is there to base currency on?  Lanthanum?  And what good is a
>currency like an Imperial Credit outside the Imperium?  All this makes
>the viability of
>markets and currencies very questionable.
>
>Better to not even go there.

Hrmph, they said similar things when the "Gold Standard" was dropped in the
1800s.  The almighty dollar still seemed to be worth something when I
bought my coffee this morning.  The value of an Imperial Credit is pegged
at the transportation of 1 ton of cargo one 'jump', at least, but that is
not relevant.  The value of a credit is what you can get for it.
Individual services resources or goods may rise and fall in value relative
to teh credit, but the credit is still good for two cups of coffee (or
local equivalent) at the local diner.

There is great value in debating Imperial/Interstellar economics.  First of
all, its fun (for some of us) and second of all, we can "realisticize" our
traveller universes where it is practical.

>Hi all,
>
>This is my first post to the TML, and I've been lurking for a couple
>of weeks, please forgive me if this has been hashed out before.

The subject has been discussed a few times.  I'm sending you some material
off-line.  Several folks (including me) will be happy to talk to you until
you really don't want to hear about it anymore.

Steve Daniels (aka Bloo) does have the right idea though.  You want to
avoid spending huge quantities of time figuring out exactly how much trade
and commerce a given planet conducts in a year with all its neighbors
within 4 parsecs just to figure out what cargos are avialable in the one
week that your players' ship happens to land there, never to return again.
Unless, of course, you're playing solo and that's wat you are into.  Most
of us, however, want a practical, realistic answer to the question "What's
available to buy at this planet?" and "how much do we get for our cargo"?

>I've examined the situation from a overall point of view.
[snip calculations of required price/ton]
>I need to charge 1500 Cr per ton just to meet my profit
>expectations. That isn't counting fuel, wages, lifesupport or annual
>maintanance. If I assume 75% usage of capacity the required profit
>per carted ton goes up to 2000 Cr.

It has been the same since CT, you *cannot* make a profit carting freight.

>This will vary quite wildly on the ship design. I've seen some
>designed which were _very expensive_ with quite small cargo bays, and
>they would need to charge more to meet profit expectations.
>
>I believe figuring a return like this would drastically change the
>sorts of ships that are economical, and indeed the cost of moving
>stuff.

Jo Grant has a spreadsheet (in Lotus 123) that not only will design (MT)
ships, but analyzes their profitability based on freight and passenger
rates.  It basically tells you how much of the hold needs to be full to
break even.  That number often comes out to over 100%.

>I figure passage (low high and mid) at having to return their tonnage
>equivalent (x0.5 for low, x4 for high or mid in large Staterooms x2
>for small staterooms).

Rememer that high passengers have the additional cost of the steward to
figure in, plus his quarters, plus environment....

>I've started collecting starship designs to analyse this,
>particularly wrt to the difference between J1 and J2, but I've not
>had enough time recently. It starts to look like a J2 ship will have
>to charge quite a lot per ton, sometimes more than twice a J1 ship,
>but then, it gets there next week, not next month.

The only 'incremental' cost that a jump 2 ship has is the fuel, which is
only a very minor component of operating expenses (which include berthing
costs, fuel, environment, salaries, mortgage, and payment ahead on the
annual maintanence).  There is also, of course, the loss of volume to
consider.  This varies with the design system used.

>Also turnaround time at port is dramatically important.[snip]

Of course, but watch that your broker fees don't outweigh the savings.

[big snip]
>Has anyone else looked at this sort of thing? Is anyone else
>interested in it?

Yes, and Yes.  Ian Whitchurch's "Grand Unified TRaveller Trade Theory"
message will be forwarded to you (since the list has seen it before) along
with some more modest articles.  Jo Grant has a few recent messages
regarding the viability of longhaul trade where he uses, as a basis for
prospective trade, some standard items from the MT encyclopedia.

>I get the impression that people have taken the 1000Cr per T as a
>base assumption and tried to figure out if a ship is profitable from
>there, whereas I'm taking the profitability requirement as an
>assumption and working back to a required cost of shipping.

There is a great emphasis on Canon here and trying to make the theoretical
realities of traveller fit with the published facts.  1000cr per ton is the
published fact, if a theory of trade can be developed that will support
this then a minimum of "canon disruption" is caused, leaving the background
intact.  My own theory is that the Imperium dictates the rate, and most
traders make their money on prospective cargos, filling otherwise unused
space with freight.

>I'm not sure that this has a big effect on how you design your trader
>ships, but I think it should. Gimme time to think about it some more.

Many player ships are not designed as freighters, but are pressed into
service as such.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 08:48:07 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

Kevin Pittsinger wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I see *ZERO* reasons why drop tanks or external dismountables should be immune to damage.  And IIRC, the shattered tank hit came from a BFG hit like a meson gun.  Lemme dig out my HG & check it, I'll get back to ya.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Granted, if anything such external tanks would be *more* susceptible
to damage - should often be damaged even if the nicely-armored ship
is not, should be damaged by things that blow right through them and 
hurt other things on the ship, etc.

There were a few fuel hits on the internal damage tables that would
erode your total fuel tankage, and a critical hit result that shattered your
internal fuel tanks altogether. In HG, critical hits were caused by hits from
weapons with a higher factor than your ship's size class, IIRC. These
were most often BFG's, but secondary weapons could do hits like these
to sub-1000 ton vessels - not that you'd have much use for such things
in the line of battle.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 10:45:31 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Defense

Steven Hudson wrote:

> >From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
> >Subject: Starport Defense (was Re: Drop tank system implementation (longer)
> ...
> >>   A raiding squadron with only a single heavy warship can easily
> >> gut a station or high-port at little risk to itself. A lightly
> >> or un-defended site (most systems - though not important ones -
> >> by your own piracy debate opinions, however contested) can be
> >> slagged by a single Gazelle equivalent, obviously.
> >
> >So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
> >venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
> >locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
> >itself.  i.e. Jammers and hiding against a much higher signature body.
> >>From their hidden position, they could then draw the attacking ships into
> >a killzone.  Of course, once a ship gets a lock, they could back off and
> >"nuke em from orbit". By that time, SDB's could get to the primary
> >weapons platforms.
>
>   I'm at a bit of a loss here, as I lack the background to figure
> out how you can mask a downport or an immobile space station. I'll
> assume that attackers are going to know where such a facility is,
> although the most urgent targets may be star-freighters in orbit.

Well, a completely immobile station IS pretty much screwed. All it takes is a
spy to record its position and get the information out to attackers. But, if you
have SOME maneuverability, like inducing drag to drop you into a lower orbit or
tugging the station with ships, this information gets volatile and is only
valuable for a short period of time before the base is out of position.

The next part of the equation is making long range sensor locks impossible. Its
easier if you're in the neighborhood of a gas giant. You can orbit sensor
platforms around the gas giant to pick up incoming jumpships. Also orbit weapons
platforms to engage anybody not sending the proper ID code.  Since jumpships
come out of J-space at 100 Diameters, the gas giant's gravity well can give you
a couple hours.  Then, you hide your base in orbit and spoof your weapons
platforms and sensor platforms to give off the same readings.  Now, the spinal
mounts need to find a speck on the sun and make sure its the right speck.
Meanwhile they've got to dodge through the debris of rocks and small moons.

>
>
>   The freighters are screwed, of course, even if they have 1-G drives.
> Jumping from the planets far side within 100 diameters is probably
> their best bet before the battlecruisers escorts mop them up or hand
> off missiles onto them.
>
>   As for a station, Det-laser missiles aren't a threat with moderate PD
> (and power shouldn't be a problem with non-military systems shut down).
> KKM's are, of course, a whole different debate, but active defense by
> auxiliaries or counter-missiles may help a lot.
>
>   However, a big capital class intruder (call it a BC in the Dreadnought
> era sense) is going to hammer you with a really ugly spinal mount, and
> against a stationary target, missing is effectively impossible. Even if
> the target has similar armament, it will be largely unable to score hits
> out at its effective performance (damage) envelope due to the targets
> evasion (for meson weapons the odds are ludicrous)
>
>   It's a bit like a fortress like Corregidor (sp?) - with guns it can
> duel OK, but torpedoes without homing systems don't work worth a damn
> against moving targets at long range.
>
>   Others on the list can provide the target solutions more readily
> than I. Mind you, the above ignores the turning issue, but even
> changes in velocity along the axis of thrust can lead to the same end.
>
>   Now, going out with SDB's either to scrub secondaries and escorts
> (if small) or take down the BC (around battle-rider class "SDB's")
> makes perfect sense, as the defenders don't pay for fuel tankage,
> jump drives, and the systems that are proportionally based around
> those requirements.
>

The real trick is buying time to get your defense boats into position.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #471
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Traveller-digest         Friday, May 8 1998         Volume 1998 : Number 472



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
re: Starport Defence
Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
Re: Starport Defence
Re: Starport Defense
Re: Drop tank system implementation
ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler
Profitable Starships
Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler
Traveller Economics Stuff (fwd)
Starport Defense (fwd)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 01:47:20
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Traveller Economics Stuff

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
>
>Steve Rennell wrote:
>
>I can see the value of doing such research, but I think that ultimately,
>the simplified approach in the Traveller rules are best.  Since, if we
>were to be really honest, the
>idea of interstellar economies, with new planets and resources and goods being
>continually discovered and exploited, the whole idea of money is jeopardized.
>What standard is there to base currency on?  Lanthanum?  And what good is a
>currency like an Imperial Credit outside the Imperium?  All this makes
>the viability of
>markets and currencies very questionable.
>
>Better to not even go there.
>

No. What needs to happen is us economics gearheads need to figure out how
it works in detail, then we need to build a simplified but still working
model that is usable and enjoyable for non-economics gearheads.

The Imperial Credit, by the way, is worth exactly what people think they
can buy with it - nothing more, nothing less (it's a fiduciary currency). I
can imagine an interstellar currency based on lumps of some useful metal
(eg lanthanum, which is used for jump grids), but the Imperial Credit
doesnt have such a base.

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Returns of investment
>
>
>I think the reason interest rate on starships is so low, is so that
beginning characters can pool their resources to buy one.  Because of the
inherent risk involved in starships, if it were my bank, the interest rates
would be higher and I'd require a much larger down payment.  Its just too
easy for a ship to disappear.  They'd also have required maintenance checks
are part of the deal so that I could minimize the risks of a
>misjump.  Heck, I'd probably want to review the log each year to make sure
the buyers weren't abusing the ship.  And not even the Imperial Marines
would mess with my Repo Men.
>

I disagree with you on almost everything here *grin*

Buying a starship is well beyond the resources of a starting starship-free
party. Even using every undocumented trick in the book (MCr40 stripped-down
ship built with 20% bulk-construction discount, with another 40% discount
for being built TL11 credits in a TL15 Imperium with a final 40% discount
for being 40 years old), you still get a deposit in the megacredit range.

Secondly, it isnt easy to make ships disappear, unless you assume that a
starship creates no paperwork.

But you are right, interest costs on a starship-sized investment are so
high as to make some pretty impressive security procedures worthwhile.

>Or better yet, I'd make them carry a huge insurance policy.  There's the
real danger: the Insurance Companies!  Fred Johnson: Interstellar Insurance
Agent.  If there's evidence you visited an amber zone: extra premiums.  If
there's evidence you visited a red zone: policy revoked!
>
>Bloo
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 07:57:23 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
>
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
>
>Steve Daniels (aka Bloo) does have the right idea though.  You want to
>avoid spending huge quantities of time figuring out exactly how much trade
>and commerce a given planet conducts in a year with all its neighbors
>within 4 parsecs just to figure out what cargos are avialable in the one
>week that your players' ship happens to land there, never to return again.
>Unless, of course, you're playing solo and that's wat you are into.  Most
>of us, however, want a practical, realistic answer to the question "What's
>available to buy at this planet?" and "how much do we get for our cargo"?
>

The best answer to these questions, in my view, involves another question :
"How far are you prepared to take the cargo ?".

I think we should get a big push on to get Traveller trade beyond
shuttle-runs from world to world, and into trading between worlds a sector
apart. 

Have someone approach the party with an option of half a dozen
only-one-owner TL11 grav tanks, and a red hot tip on a planetary government
30 parsecs away that might just be in the market for them ... he'll come
along for the ride, and assist with the paperwork ...

>
>Yes, and Yes.  Ian Whitchurch's "Grand Unified TRaveller Trade Theory"
>message will be forwarded to you (since the list has seen it before) along
>with some more modest articles.  Jo Grant has a few recent messages
>regarding the viability of longhaul trade where he uses, as a basis for
>prospective trade, some standard items from the MT encyclopedia.
>

*gulp* does this mean I have to finish GUTTT with currency valuation effects ?

*thinks* if I ask really really nicely, I might be able to get someone else
to cut the code neccessary to do a trade matrix for the entire Imperium ...

Very-long distance trade is exteremly viable, once you drop the Cr 5000 per
displacement tons average cargo value, and jack it up to something more
realistic, like Cr50-500 000 per dton.

Of course, then the optimal moneymaking strategy becomes owning the cargo
and leasing the ship *grin*

>>I get the impression that people have taken the 1000Cr per T as a
>>base assumption and tried to figure out if a ship is profitable from
>>there, whereas I'm taking the profitability requirement as an
>>assumption and working back to a required cost of shipping.
>
>There is a great emphasis on Canon here and trying to make the theoretical
>realities of traveller fit with the published facts.  1000cr per ton is the
>published fact, if a theory of trade can be developed that will support
>this then a minimum of "canon disruption" is caused, leaving the background
>intact.  My own theory is that the Imperium dictates the rate, and most
>traders make their money on prospective cargos, filling otherwise unused
>space with freight.
>

Nope. Doesnt work. At all. All it does is turn what is in actuality freight
(ie cargo that is really owned by someone else) temporarily into
speculative cargo (you buy it off x for y, with the agreement you will sell
it to z for y+real freighting costs). You can thus charge real freight
costs, and evade the silly Cr1000 per jump mandated price.

>>I'm not sure that this has a big effect on how you design your trader
>>ships, but I think it should. Gimme time to think about it some more.
>
>Many player ships are not designed as freighters, but are pressed into
>service as such.

Sort of. I am impressed by a lot of the trader ships that went into the
THUDDD comps, especially the 'Exploratory Trader' designs.



Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 09:21:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
> 
>         After much thought, and with no little trepidation I might add, I
> thought I'd take a stab at laying out the evolution Vilani cuisines.  BTW Loren
> I am assuming that the info on Vland as laid out in the MT Vilani & Vargr book
> is still canon.  So here goes... ;)

WOW! Well done!

One quibble:

Not having yeasts means either: a) no beer or wine, or any alcoholic
beverages or b) having a perfectly viable substitute, in which case you
get leavened bread somewhere along the line, _particularly_ if you're
brewing beer or wine in the vicinity. 

It'll happen by accident, someday someone makes a batch of bread and
doesn't cook it right away. They come back and notice it's a _lot_
bigger. But they're broke and bake it anyway. Then they spend a LONG
time trying to figure out how they did it because it tastes so good ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 09:13:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Starport Defence

>So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
>venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
>locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
>itself.  i.e. Jammers and hiding against a much higher signature body.
>From their hidden position, they could then draw the attacking ships into
>a killzone.  Of course, once a ship gets a lock, they could back off and
>"nuke em from orbit". By that time, SDB's could get to the primary
>weapons platforms.

This is hard from a signature standpoint - since stations are big, and
since they need navigation beacons and lights and stuff so people can 
dock with them.

Even if it was practical, it only works if the station has some 
capability to maneuver - otherwise one just notes down its position while
passing through peacefully one day, and then comes back three months later
and hammers the station. Non-maneuvering-targets are incredibly vulnerable
to long-range thruster-powered kinetic-energy weapons - even with good
point defence (which I'm a strong believer in) you can use submunitions
deployed well outside of point defence range. (Sam's Giant Death Missiles -
whatever their limitiations against maneuvering targets - are Certain Death
for a space station with no maneuver capability.) 

I would say that therefore almost all space installations should have
a small maneuver capability - 0.1 or 0.01 G would be enough - and change
their orbit slightly every week or so. Even then, they're vulnerable to 
various forms of attack; space stations that even remotely expect to get
attacked should probably be built out of asteroids with lots of ability
to absorb damage. They should also have a fairly thick network of defensive
sub-stations a couple of hexes out for defence against kinetic energy
missiles.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:45:53 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff

Ian Whitchurch said;

>*gulp* does this mean I have to finish GUTTT with currency valuation effects ?

Nah, just 'finish' it.

>*thinks* if I ask really really nicely, I might be able to get someone else
>to cut the code neccessary to do a trade matrix for the entire Imperium ...

Jo Grant might be willing.  He's already done PE stats for the entire
Imperium.  He also was looking at some other related stats (from Trillion
Credit Squadron maybe?).  I'll ask him when I get a chance.

[snip]
>> My own theory is that the Imperium dictates the rate, and most
>>traders make their money on prospective cargos, filling otherwise unused
>>space with freight.
>>
>
>Nope. Doesnt work. At all. All it does is turn what is in actuality freight
>(ie cargo that is really owned by someone else) temporarily into
>speculative cargo (you buy it off x for y, with the agreement you will sell
>it to z for y+real freighting costs). You can thus charge real freight
>costs, and evade the silly Cr1000 per jump mandated price.

Working with Merchant Prince et al, filling the hold with speculative cargo
is not always possible becaus (1) the amount of cash on hand is
insufficient to buy up a full hold or (2) (on smaller pop worlds - like 3-)
there is not enough cargo to fill the hold available.  In situations of
this sort there is no reason not to rent hold space to the next destination.

This is base don one campaign and may not be applicable to a larger theory
of trade, but that's what I'm doing.  Oh, and prices for purchasing cargos
in MTU are much higher than the 4000-8000 from Merchant PRince.

In any case, I really liked your work from before and look forward to the
next revision.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:53:11 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

>s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
>>
>>         After much thought, and with no little trepidation I might add, I
>> thought I'd take a stab at laying out the evolution Vilani cuisines.
>>BTW Loren
>> I am assuming that the info on Vland as laid out in the MT Vilani &
>>Vargr book
>> is still canon.  So here goes... ;)
>
>WOW! Well done!
>
>One quibble:
>
>Not having yeasts means either: a) no beer or wine, or any alcoholic
>beverages or b) having a perfectly viable substitute, in which case you
>get leavened bread somewhere along the line, _particularly_ if you're
>brewing beer or wine in the vicinity.

Grain Alcohol can be made by distilling, but is a much harder thing to
"stumble on to" than fermentation with yeast.  It also means that all
alcoholic beverages are "hard" liquor rather than a less potent wine or
beer analogue.

Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because some
bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.

Pete, who has had great fun brewing beer.


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 13:07:17 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Defence

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
> >venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
> >locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
> >itself.  i.e. Jammers and hiding against a much higher signature body.
> >From their hidden position, they could then draw the attacking ships into
> >a killzone.  Of course, once a ship gets a lock, they could back off and
> >"nuke em from orbit". By that time, SDB's could get to the primary
> >weapons platforms.
>
> This is hard from a signature standpoint - since stations are big, and
> since they need navigation beacons and lights and stuff so people can
> dock with them.
>

Actually, you can always use "harbor" pilots out to bring ships in on inertial
navigation. You verify the ship is non-hostile, then send your pilot crew out
to the ship. Then you face your landing lights towards the gas giant which cuts
down on the EM signature. Alot of GG moons are tidally locked, which means you
can put your landing facilities on the GG side and big cannons facing out on
the other side. Then you've got a big ol' moon to sheild you. Of course this
would be a military base during wartime.  Its rather extreme during peacetime
in trade depots.

> Even if it was practical, it only works if the station has some
> capability to maneuver - otherwise one just notes down its position while
> passing through peacefully one day, and then comes back three months later
> and hammers the station. Non-maneuvering-targets are incredibly vulnerable
> to long-range thruster-powered kinetic-energy weapons - even with good
> point defence (which I'm a strong believer in) you can use submunitions
> deployed well outside of point defence range. (Sam's Giant Death Missiles -
> whatever their limitiations against maneuvering targets - are Certain Death
> for a space station with no maneuver capability.)
>

Orbital stations would require some thrusters to keep their orbit.  Launching
craft and taking on cargo WILL affect its momentum.  You do need SOME means of
recalibrating your orbit.

> I would say that therefore almost all space installations should have
> a small maneuver capability - 0.1 or 0.01 G would be enough - and change
> their orbit slightly every week or so. Even then, they're vulnerable to
> various forms of attack; space stations that even remotely expect to get
> attacked should probably be built out of asteroids with lots of ability
> to absorb damage. They should also have a fairly thick network of defensive
> sub-stations a couple of hexes out for defence against kinetic energy
> missiles.

I'm thinking that a GG would do very weird things to a kinetic energy missile
once it got into the gravity well.  I'm not saying you couldn't calculate the
course, I'm just saying that the precision necessary would make it mighty
difficult.  The slightest error would get magnified and likely suck the missile
off into the gas giant. For purposes of defending against asteroids, this orbit
position would already be calculated pretty well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:48:21 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Defense

>>   A raiding squadron with only a single heavy warship can easily
>> gut a station or high-port at little risk to itself. A lightly
>> or un-defended site (most systems - though not important ones -
>> by your own piracy debate opinions, however contested) can be
>> slagged by a single Gazelle equivalent, obviously.

There are ways to defend them.  Area jammers, a not-so-small probe network.
Orbital weapons platforms... (just put a missle launcher in orbit, controlled
as an RCV from a ground station or put in a robot brain).  Especially Hi-pop
systems are going to have some mean sensor arrays and I'm guessing some not
insignificant protection.  Monitors and SDBs mostly.  I'd expect at least one
monitor per hi-pop system and several squadrons of SDBs.

>  As for a station, Det-laser missiles aren't a threat with moderate PD
>(and power shouldn't be a problem with non-military systems shut down).
>KKM's are, of course, a whole different debate, but active defense by
>auxiliaries or counter-missiles may help a lot.

KKMs ("standard" ones) will go easier than DETs.  The extraordinary ones have
yet to convince me of the economic practicality.  They'd be used in instances,
but wouldn't be common at all.  At least IMO.  

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 13:49:57 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Drop tank system implementation

>  A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage
>when engaging in a long range sniping duel with slow or stationary
>targets. Thus, only ships (not stations or deep meson sites) can
>participate; a slow merchant vessel that can't hide (by landing?)
>is easily destroyed. Admittedly most of the combat systems in use
>(although not currently in development) don't reflect this.

Battle Rider and Brilliant Lances do.  That's w/ the diffmods for range.  They
wouldn't apply if there wasn't manuevering going on.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 11:24:20 -0700 
From: amarin@walldata.com
Subject: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler

First of all let me apologize for all the garbage that occurs after our mail
on your list. We have looked into the problem and found nothing out of the
ordinary and believe that the mail server is not stripping our mail
effectively. So, I'll just write occasionally as to avoid wasting your time.
Thank you for your patience in advance.

OK, I would like to open the following thread/topic for discussion...
Please don't write me directly (unless you are responding to the PS).

I am very interested in running a campaign that centers around archeology
and adventure (always adventure). I must admit I'm at a loss as to how to go
about this without creating a logistical nightmare for the players. They
like discovery, but I am finding that too much dice rolling and complex
computation place an inordinate drag on the game; yet I want the players to
become closely involved with some of the investigations, to create a feeling
of accomplishment. To balance these two, means that I need a handle on
what's important and what I can wing. Also an understanding of archeology in
the far future and what it might entail if the artifacts players uncover are
more advanced (and possibly forbidden) than their current society's.

(PS - the ever present advertisement for players)

We are a new group who play T4 in Seattle, at Wizards of the Coast, once a
month on RPG Tourney Saturday (usually around the 25th on each month...
barring holidays). If you live in the Seattle area and are interested in
joining us for Traveler, drop me a line at: amarin@walldata.com
<mailto:amarin@walldata.com> .

I am also looking for advice on drawing new players to the game (my game).
Traveler, although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having
trouble finding players in my area. Could use any advice...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:26:09 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Profitable Starships

[Warning: several MT ship designs...]

>It has been the same since CT, you *cannot* make a profit carting freight.
Only for standard produced designs.

>Jo Grant has a spreadsheet (in Lotus 123) that not only will design (MT)
>ships, but analyzes their profitability based on freight and passenger
>rates.  It basically tells you how much of the hold needs to be full to
>break even.  That number often comes out to over 100%.

Only for PC ships (who generally don't have to pay mortgages). I never
considered a design that needed more than 50% of its hold filled (with
freight) to be worthy of being called a trader. Unfortunately a recent bug
has come to light in my spreadsheet invalidating all my previous designs
(thanks Pete, grumble). I think I have to revise my number. But, with that,
lets look at some designs...

I'll concentrate firstly on freight. I can do similar calculations for
high-passage and low-passage designs if there is the interest. Taking
things to their limits, here is a TL12 freighter with a capacity for
100,000t.

 CrafID: Mega Freighter, Type A, TL 12, MCr 28555.247
   Hull: 134716/336790, Disp=149685 tons, Config=1SL, Armour=40,
         Loaded=2486868 tons, Unloaded=805420 tons
  Power: 3993/9983, Fusion=359370Mw, Duration=30/90
   Loco: 2694/6736, Maneuver=1, 2694/6736, Jump=1, NOE=160, Cruise=750,
         Top=1000, Vacuum=1200
  Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: PasEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=Far Orbit, ActObjScan=Routine,
         ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
    Def: DefDM=4
Control: Computer=6x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx75339, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=232.1, (Bridge=20.1, Engineer=154, Maint=18, Command=32,
         Steward=7, Medical=1), Staterooms=232.1, SubCraft=4t x 1
  Other: Cargo=100000t, Fuel=24552t, FuelPurify=24 hours, ObjSize=Large,
         EmLevel=Strong

This design breaks even when carrying 78% or more filled. Interestingly, a
large percentage of the expenses are for fuel. If you assume that it is
going to do wilderness refueling then it only needs to fill 52% of its
holds with freight. The effective cost per ton of cargo shipped is 783Cr
and 521Cr.

On the opposite end here is a freighter carrying only 200t of cargo:

 CrafID: Minimal Freighter, Type A, TL 12, MCr 76.835
   Hull: 277/692, Disp=308 tons, Config=1SL, Armour=40, Loaded=5600 tons,
         Unloaded=2218 tons
  Power: 8/21, Fusion=741Mw, Duration=30/90
   Loco: 6/14, Maneuver=1, 6/14, Jump=1, NOE=160, Cruise=750, Top=1000,
         Vacuum=1200
  Commo: Radio=System
Sensors: PasEMS=Interstellar, ActEMS=Far Orbit, ActObjScan=Routine,
         ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
    Def: DefDM=2.5
Control: Computer=1.5x3, Panel=Dynamic Linkedx585, Environ=all
 Accomm: Crew=2, (Bridge=1, Engineer=1), Staterooms=2, SubCraft=4t x 1
  Other: Cargo=200t, Fuel=51t, FuelPurify=24 hours, ObjSize=Average,
         EmLevel=Faint

This design requires 99% usage for breakeven when buying fuel, and 72%
usage when skimming. The effective cost per ton of cargo shipped is 988Cr
and 718Cr.

Of significant note is that the majority of the cost of the ship (62%) is
in the maneuver drive/power plant. Someone convinced me that specialised
longhaul freighters can make due with engines that accelerate at only .05G.
Profits increase sharply if you do that (54%/33% and 537Cr/331Cr for the
100,000t model, 69%/48% and 693Cr/479Cr for the 200t model, but you'd be
mad to run with a small ship that couldn't land on a planet). I can see a
model similar to X-boats where you had jump ships with no maneuver drive at
all.

Once I designed a refinery station, which was basically a big take with a
fuel purification processor and some tenders. I must do that again to see
how much it _actually_ costs to collect and refine fuel. Or design some
fuel tenders for the supertankers, since fuel is such a large part of the
running costs...

Anyway, in every system it has been possible to design profitable ships
running freight at 1000Cr/jump. I do not advocate even thinking of changing
the cost of freight. Rather the opposite, I think the idea of saying that
the value of the Imperial Credit is based on a fixed cost of trade to be
very plausible. It explains the similar prices, lack of inflation, and low
interest rates throughout the history of the Imperium.

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:52:09 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler

>First of all let me apologize for all the garbage that occurs after our mail
>on your list.

I didn't get any garbage.

>I am very interested in running a campaign that centers around archeology
>and adventure (always adventure). I must admit I'm at a loss as to how to go
>about this without creating a logistical nightmare for the players. They
>like discovery, but I am finding that too much dice rolling and complex
>computation place an inordinate drag on the game; yet I want the players to
>become closely involved with some of the investigations, to create a feeling
>of accomplishment. To balance these two, means that I need a handle on
>what's important and what I can wing. Also an understanding of archeology in
>the far future and what it might entail if the artifacts players uncover are
>more advanced (and possibly forbidden) than their current society's.

Here's my outline for running an archaeological campaign;

First, I would establish some sketchy background information of several of
the local (to the subsector) pre-Imperial cultures.  These will include (in
the Spinward Marches for example) Darrian Colonies, Ziru Sirka failed
colonies, relics of many non-starfarers of human and humanoid races, and,
of course, The Ancients; probably I'd roll 2d12 for each habitable planet
and place relics there on a roll of 1-2, then use a similar roll or set of
rolls to essentially create a UPP for each culture.  Many would predate
even the Ancients, some may be relics of a society still existant on the
planet.

These are a smokescreen.  My second step would be to create a spacefaring
culture which once spread across many planets in the area, but left just a
few clues to their existence.  The idea is to have a problem with clues
that need to be put together; Perhaps a star map on a storage media (a
durable one), but the players need to find an example of the reader to
reverse engineer, and they must recognize the reader when they see it.

This might lead the players to other clues...and so on.  Meanwhile there
would be a band of competing archaeologists or perhaps site poachers who
are trafficing in contraband artifacts (which happen to be fashionable on
Vland these days), or maybe a group who say they are decended from race xyz
whose site we are desecrating, or perhaps all of the above at different
times.

Now for what Ithink you questionis related to;  When actually looking for
artifacts there are two possible methodologies;

1). personally exploring the site and picking up random items,
photographing ruins, etc.  Takes a day or two.

There is very little chance of new discovery (barring a recent earthquake
or other plot device) but information can be collected, etc.

2). Running a full blown "Dig" complete with gravitic earthmoving, large
crews of Grad Students, etc.  Takes months or even years.

This is the "real" method of archaeology.  Cities are revealed, remains,
artifacts and other detrious are examined, tagged, stored, and information
and conclusions are published.

In my preparations for my 'planted' culture I will make a bunch of drawing
of the pertinent artifacts, cuneiforms, structures, etc.  This is where the
'puzzle' will be buried (preferably among a lot of distractions), and it
will take the brains of the players to somehow figure this out.  Eventually
the puzzle will reveal itself completely, but by then it will probably be
too late; the players will be required to act on partial information
inorder to "win" in the planned fashion (which doesn't prevent them from
winning in an unplanned fashion).

There, that's enough.  I may want to play this myself at some point and I
don't want to give too much away.  (this much he'll figure out, right Jo?)

>I am also looking for advice on drawing new players to the game (my game).
>Traveler, although obviously having a very loyal following, I am having
>trouble finding players in my area. Could use any advice...

You already seem to be drawing on your Friendly Local Game Store for a
locale.  I suggest seeing if the nearest large University has a gaming club
mailing list and inviting any of those folks.

I also suggest seeing if family members (sisters/brothers, cousins,
uncles/aunts/nephews/neices) would find it interesting to "try out" a
session or two.  Don't limit yourself to experianced gamers - the  point is
to make experienced gamers out of inexperienced ones.  I had a great time
with a mixed group of older and younger folks - from 12 yo to 40 yo - I
made the younger folks play relatively younger characters (though not as
young as they were) and we did quite well.

Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 98 21:59 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Traveller Economics Stuff (fwd)

Moin Ian or Katts,

> The Imperial Credit, by the way, is worth exactly what people think they
> can buy with it - nothing more, nothing less (it's a fiduciary currency). I
> can imagine an interstellar currency based on lumps of some useful metal
> (eg lanthanum, which is used for jump grids), but the Imperial Credit
> doesnt have such a base.

	I have to disagree. The Imperial Credit is backed by the fact
	than any Imperial Subsidary Liner or Trader has to carry one
	displacement ton one jump for 1000Cr, and that is has to carry
	high, medium and low passage at standard rates. For this reason
	the IC did'nt show inflation, even if local currencies did when
	a single government deceided to invent own lumps. Those government
	had gone back to IC based currency using the TL/StarPort conversion
	most times. Only Lancian governments had shown some the anti
	vilani tradition of having own currencies, and extrem tax when
	exchanging them to IC, until Arabelatra stoped them to do so.

	So the Imperial Credit is backed by the Imperial Fleet. And this
	is of course not only the trade fleet (subsidaries) but also escord
	and war fleet.

	Trolling: The US-$ shows a similar think. Its not backed by US
	production, but by US security. Overrating of the US-$ caused a
	financial collpase in the tiger states (japan, korea, ...) last
	year.

	BackToTrav: Perhaps similiar things also happens to low tech
	worlds, as the starport exchange table gives them the advantage
	in terms of trade (imho).
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 98 21:39 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Starport Defense (fwd)

	This is crossposted from TML to RCES, because of TNE relation.

Moin Joe Pettit,

>  A warship with high G's of evasion has a radically unfair advantage

	true, its more difficult to detect and to hit, but this doesnt
	help much.

> So, how does one go about defending your "stationary" starport? I would
> venture a guess that an effective technique would involve making target
> locks ineffective outside the range that the station could defend
> itself.

	The Rurevayn (Gushemege Trade Va^h^hEmpire) has 3 types of starports :

	- JumpPorts in size of 9000 - 750.000 tons. Those ports are perhaps
	  better called fabrication ships. The smaller ones jump with
	  the fleets and are able to host fregate to destroyer sized ships,
	  while the larger ones are only seen in central Rurevayn. The base
	  design is a J2 to J4 tanker. So if they are under attack, they
	  just jump away.

	- Astroid-HighPorts those are badly called maneuverable, but they
	  they are not sitting ducks. They have the advantage of huge
	  power plant, a meson screen bigger then the battleships guns,
	  and more solid rock than any particle accellerator can penetrate.
	  They have deep mount meson guns, and lot of missiles. And of
	  course they also have the sensor advantage because of a large
	  number of prelaunched sensor drones.

	- Subsidary-Downports those are the easy targets. Backwater planets
	  with a so called trade port. Most are not more than a shuttle, a
	  lake and a fuel purification plant. If they have an automatic
	  fabrication facility they are decleard B. If they also have
	  an technical university (that is building one 200dt TL:10
	  Yacht per term using an own AFF-10) its called Tl:A-Class:A.
	  Often the shipyard follows soon to justifiy this classification.

	  The base defense in the C package is HELL. HELL is translated
	  for high energy laser lauch, and of course classified civilian.
	  Its primary intended for launching sattalites between 20 and
	  90kg. But can also stop small frigate sized ships. Often the
	  shuttle is armed and also serves as a revenue cutter. Some
	  governments can also pay of pack of SDB's and orbital fighters.
	  The wealthier ask for a meson deep mount and sensor network.

	But the most important thing, is of course forward defense. The
	Rurevayn CruRons secure Trade within 15 parsec around Imaparlu,
	while the ScoutRons can be seen anywhere within Gushemege and
	parts of Vland. The human transponder doctrine and the body swap
	ensures that homocidal motivated awaken does'nt have a chance of
	even getting near one of the valuable ports. At least not without
	warning.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #472
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 9 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 473



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

web sites (fwd)
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
Re: Investment in Traveller
Starport Defence
Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: March (labship) THUDDD
Re: Profitable Starships
What's a credit worth?
Re: Archaeology in Traveller
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #472
Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
Re: [Fwd: Massive Traveller Sale]
Re: Investment in Traveller 
Re: web sites (fwd)
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler
Non-Traveller stuff for sale.  PC Games.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 98 22:06 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: web sites (fwd)

Moin Kagehira,

> 	While trying to go along the Traveller webring tonight, I noticed a fair
> amount of sites had a tendency to use dark fonts against a dark background,
> causing the text to be either very hard to see or impossible to see. This
> problem usually occured in links, but not always.

	its even worse in my environment, an Sun3/50. The screen is
	1152x900 monocrome, which is nice for programming, but a lot of
	pages display black on black. Some have only their links black on
	black (extremly funny, move to a black position and guest what's
	behind the link by reading the URL) some have only visisted
	links black on black.

	I've told it, several of them several times. But its like
	running against windmills. Please use white background, and
	standard forground colors of users preferences. This is also
	much better, if you think about people who want to print your
	page.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 14:35:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Grain Alcohol can be made by distilling, but is a much harder thing to
> "stumble on to" than fermentation with yeast.  It also means that all
> alcoholic beverages are "hard" liquor rather than a less potent wine or
> beer analogue.

Distilling from _what_ is the question. _All_ distilled beverages on
Earth start with fermented beverages. The alcohol comes from the
metabolic action of the yeasts just as in beer. All distillation does is
concentrate the alcohol to higher concentrations that that available
from fermentation alone (roughly 21% max IIRC). 

A friend of mine who brews regularly, tried a fruit beer that turned out
horribly...so he got the bright idea to cook it up in a still. He
managed to turn out a quite passable brandy-like stuff.

(BTW, yes, it _is_ legal in the US to distill up to (again, IIRC) about
a gallon of spirits per household per year for personal use, this under
the same laws that allow home beer and winemaking. You are not allowed
to sell it, or make more than the legal amount, which is where the
moonshiners so beloved of Southern folklore got into trouble with the
Revenooers.)

> Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
> digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
> undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
> bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because some
> bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.

Nope. In fact, they're more closely related to US than they are to the
bacteria in our gut, (which makes yeasts nasty when they turn
pathogenic. Good thing, too, else we'd get a helluva good buzz out of
your average high-carbo pasta meal ;-)

There _are_ some bacterial-based beverage fermentation processes (lambic
beer has at least one bacterial fermentation step, although I don't know
if that's the same step that produces the alcohol. There was a good
article on Lambic beermaking in one of last years Scientific American
issues), but the most reliable alcohol producing ones use yeast.

Of course, this doesn't mean that some native Vilani microorganism
doesn't make alcohol out of vilani carbohydrates, or whatever chemical
that Vilani based life uses. 

> Pete, who has had great fun brewing beer.

Bruce, who wishes he played with Pete, so he could sample it. ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 17:54:47 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Hrmph, they said similar things when the "Gold Standard" was dropped in the
> 1800s.

Oops, Pete.  It was Nixon who took us off the Gold Standard.  So sometime
between 1968 and 1972.

>  The almighty dollar still seemed to be worth something when I
> bought my coffee this morning.

We currently share one world of finite resources. Our economy is generally
based on the relative scarcity of resources.  Take away the scarcity and what
happens?  You might have lost your economy.

>  The value of an Imperial Credit is pegged at the transportation of 1 ton of
> cargo one 'jump', at least, but that is not relevant.

Ah, but what if the costs of producing a starship are significantly less on one
world, for whatever reason.  The costs of transportation are thus lower.  As
you say, its Canon.  Thats why I say, let sleeping dogs lay, as a practical
matter.  For the intellectual fun, have at it!

>  The value of a credit is what you can get for it.
> Individual services resources or goods may rise and fall in value relative
> to teh credit, but the credit is still good for two cups of coffee (or
> local equivalent) at the local diner.

And what you can get for it is dependant upon a huge confluence of factors.What
is it worth to the world that doesn't trade with the Imperium?  Bupkiss.
Of course, you're speaking of cash, which is only one type of money.  Cash is
really debt.  In many ways, its a promise to pay.  To pay what?  Well, it used
to be a promise to pay gold or silver of a set amount.  But now?  I don't
know.  Some econ. wiz will have to tell us.  However, I suggest that whatever
that answer to that question is, it will be of doubtful application to the
interstellar environment.  With so many worlds, and gas giants, its seems that
you can't tie it to any resource.  I'm certainly interested in any
suggestions.  (I'm assuming that this whole conversation is non-Canonical, so I
hope there is a creative answer out there.  IMHO, the Canon on this, tying the
credit to transportation costs is a necessary fiat for playability, but fails
any 'realistic' examination).

> There is great value in debating Imperial/Interstellar economics.  First of
> all, its fun (for some of us) and second of all, we can "realisticize" our
> traveller universes where it is practical.

Sure debating is always fun.  I just fear that the ultimate conclusion will be
thatwhat we understand to be 'realistic' economics and market theory, will
completely
fall in the interstellar context.

I really like what Peter Hamilton uses in his Reality Dysfunction and
Neutronium Alchemist novels.  He uses a "fuseodollar."  The fusion engines in
his story universe run on H3 (tritium) and it is available only from gas giants
(I don't know if thats scientifically accurate, but it works for me).  All of
the gas giants and the manufacture/containment/whatever of H3 is controlled.
Of course, it also may be unrealistic, but at least there is a nod to the
incredible complexity and dificulty of maintaining an interstellar economy.

> Steve Daniels (aka Bloo) does have the right idea though.

Finally!  I was right about something.  ;-)

> Yes, and Yes.  Ian Whitchurch's "Grand Unified TRaveller Trade Theory"
> message will be forwarded to you (since the list has seen it before) along
> with some more modest articles.

Could I get a copy of that as well, please?

> There is a great emphasis on Canon here and trying to make the theoretical
> realities of traveller fit with the published facts.  1000cr per ton is the
> published fact, if a theory of trade can be developed that will support
> this then a minimum of "canon disruption" is caused, leaving the background
> intact.

I don't know about the effects on Canon, but I would only use the 1000Cr/ton,
and the whole trade system in T4, for "standard" cargos.  Thankfully, my PCs
aren't really into the freighting idea, but when they do, I try to jazz it up
with a specific product that has a specific price at the intended market (at
least it had one before the jumped there, it might have changed).  Of course,
weapons of the highest available TL are always good cargo, and usually ripe
with potential adventure hooks.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 14:58:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Starport Defence

>>>[Hiding stations]
>> This is hard from a signature standpoint - since stations are big, and
>> since they need navigation beacons and lights and stuff so people can
>> dock with them.
>Actually, you can always use "harbor" pilots out to bring ships in on inertial
>navigation. You verify the ship is non-hostile, then send your pilot crew out
>to the ship. Then you face your landing lights towards the gas giant which cuts
>down on the EM signature.

>Of course this
>would be a military base during wartime.  Its rather extreme during peacetime
>in trade depots.
Id idn't follow the original thread, so I wasn't sure if we were talking about
civilian or military facilities...but even military (free-space, as opposed
to buried-on-a-moon) facilities are fairly easy to detect unless you spend vast
amounts of money on MilBlack coatings, etc. Even then, a 100,000 dTon object
lurking close to a gas giant is probably detectable by a medium-large sensor   
at a few million km.

>Orbital stations would require some thrusters to keep their orbit.  Launching
>craft and taking on cargo WILL affect its momentum.  You do need SOME means of
>recalibrating your orbit.

True, but you need substantial accelerations (tenth of a G) to avoid
submunitions deployed at the ~100,000 km range.

>I'm thinking that a GG would do very weird things to a kinetic energy missile
>once it got into the gravity well.

One would fire missiles with their own guidance capability and moderate
(a couple of G) acceleration.

Attack profile for a raider against a mostly-civilian station would be 
to jump in a few hundred million km away, pre-accelerated to several thousnad
km/s relative to the target station. You detect the (civilian) station with 
your sensors, adjust your position slightly for
jump error and lob a couple of dozen relatively cheap (HEPlaR-powered)
missiles at it; the missiles coast until they're detectable (at perhaps a 
few hundred thousand km), then fire up their drives, correct their course,
and deploy a few hundred 10-kg SuperDense rods. The station only has a 
couple of minutes warning.

In 30 seconds at 0.01 G the station can only move a hundred meters; for a     
big station most of the rods will hit. Point defence - unless it's fully
automated and very high tech - won't be able to catch most of the rods 
either. Each rod hits like a dreadnaught spinal mount. 

The defence is to have enough pickets with high-quality active sensors to 
detect the missiles and destroy them before they deploy their submunitions
(or really good system control sensors that spot the launching craft.) 

Military stations might be harder to pinpoint, which means the missiles have
to have their own terminal sensors and start maneuvering earlier, so you
get a more elaborate duel between active defences - but you can spend a lot
more effort and money, too, so big T-plate missiles become cost-effective.

Normally I'm in the skeptic's corner on the effectiveness of Giant Death
Missiles, but against big fixed targets, they're very dangerous. Orbital
installations that aren't hidden on moons or deep inside asteroids are in
serious trouble if a war gets nasty. (Of course, so are civilian populations - 
civilians on a planetary surface are nearly undefendable too; civilian 
survival in wartime is mostly a matter of courtesy.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:10:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff

Ian or Katts wrote:

> >From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> >
> >Better to not even go there.
>
> No. What needs to happen is us economics gearheads need to figure out how
> it works in detail, then we need to build a simplified but still working
> model that is usable and enjoyable for non-economics gearheads.

Assuming this even possible, I welcome it.

> The Imperial Credit, by the way, is worth exactly what people think they
> can buy with it - nothing more, nothing less (it's a fiduciary currency). I
> can imagine an interstellar currency based on lumps of some useful metal
> (eg lanthanum, which is used for jump grids), but the Imperial Credit
> doesnt have such a base.

We don't disagree.  However, I think the Imperial Credit must be subsidized, and
prices may even be fixed, because without such safeguards, inflation would be a
tremendous danger to the economy.

> Buying a starship is well beyond the resources of a starting starship-free
> party. Even using every undocumented trick in the book (MCr40 stripped-down
> ship built with 20% bulk-construction discount, with another 40% discount
> for being built TL11 credits in a TL15 Imperium with a final 40% discount
> for being 40 years old), you still get a deposit in the megacredit range.

Sure, but acquiring that sum depends on the size of the party and whether they're
trying to puchase it day one after chargen or not.

Wait a second, I'm not familiar with all these tricks.
Say the ship cost 30 MCr.
- -20% for bulk construction = 24 MCr
- -40% for TL 11 = 19.2 MCr
- -40% for 40 years old = 11.5 MCr.

A 20% down payment is 2.3 MCr.
8 3-term PCs with lucky cash rolls could afford this.

> Secondly, it isnt easy to make ships disappear, unless you assume that a
> starship creates no paperwork.

They're easy to blow up, misjump, float adrift, get stolen, etc.  I guess this
depends on how heavily trafficked YTU is.

> But you are right, interest costs on a starship-sized investment are so
> high as to make some pretty impressive security procedures worthwhile.

Cool.  Thats twice today!  ;-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 15:46:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: March (labship) THUDDD

On Fri, 8 May 1998, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> By the way - does anyone know what happened to the March (really April)
> labship THUDD?

Really April-May at this point. :(  Real Life (tm) has been *way* too
weird lately.  In any case, the long-delayed yet worth-waiting-for THUDDD
9 entries and ballot instructions will be out this weekend, likely Sunday.
My apologies to all for the delay.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 10:42:29 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Profitable Starships

Jo Grant provided a couple of MT designs for consideration
 
>  CrafID: Mega Freighter, Type A, TL 12, MCr 28555.247
> Cargo: 100000
[snip]
> This design breaks even when carrying 78% or more filled. Interestingly, a
> large percentage of the expenses are for fuel. If you assume that it is
> going to do wilderness refueling then it only needs to fill 52% of its
> holds with freight. The effective cost per ton of cargo shipped is 783Cr
> and 521Cr.

But If I expect to make a return of 5% off owning the ship 
(as a megacorp who bought it outright) and amortise it over 
40 years, then I need to get 856 Cr per ton/trip (at 25 
trips per year, 100% capacity) to cover the expected 
profit. If I get 78% capacity, I need to earn 1098 Cr per 
ton trip.
If I add on costs it gets worse - over 1000 per ton per 
trip at 100% (same assumptions). 

Drop the expected rate of return to 0%, but still amortise 
over 40 years, and the PROFIT per ton needed at 100% 
capacity is 285 Cr. Remember - this isn't counting costs. 
Why would a megacorp buy a trading ship that didn't return 
any money?
 
> On the opposite end here is a freighter carrying only 200t of cargo:
>  CrafID: Minimal Freighter, Type A, TL 12, MCr 76.835
>  Cargo=200t, 
> This design requires 99% usage for breakeven when buying fuel, and 72%
> usage when skimming. The effective cost per ton of cargo shipped is 988Cr
> and 718Cr.

And this ship requires (at 0% return, but amortised over
40 years) 384Cr per ton trip Profit at 100% capacity. Add 
that to the costs you give, and it won't break even long 
term even at 100%

> I do not advocate even thinking of changing the cost of
> freight. Rather the opposite, I think the idea of saying
> that the value of the Imperial Credit is based on a
> fixed cost of trade to be very plausible. It explains the
> similar prices, lack of inflation, and low interest
> rates throughout the history of the Imperium.

But haven't you already suggested that the TAS can get at 
least 5% return on money depositied with them as 
memberships? How do they do that? Investment? If normal 
investment returns in excess of 5% then why doesn't 
starship economics return similar amounts. If it doesn't 
then why do people invest in starships?

I mean, even if a jump 1 is fixed at 1000 Cr/ton, why is a
jump 2 exactly the same price? We know the costs are
higher (mostly for fuel, but it's also a more expensive
ship), If there is only a J1 ship, it costs me 2000 Cr and
takes twice as long to get my ton of cargo 2 parsecs- why
can't the J2 ship charge 2000 Cr with a promise of getting
it there sooner? At least that would be a start.

If my players end up running a trading ship, then I have to
have the economics make sense to me or my suspension of
disbelieve cracks so badly I can't run traveller for another
couple of years. It's just as bad as the stereotypical D&D
dungeon with different monsters in every room who have
nothing to eat but each other...

Please consider the concept of changing the economics, even 
just a little...

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:44:36 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: What's a credit worth?

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And what you can get for it is dependant upon a huge confluence of factors.What
is it worth to the world that doesn't trade with the Imperium?  Bupkiss.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The only thing an Imperial Credit is worth to a non-Imperial planet is 
something to buy Imperial goods with - or something to trade with 
someone who wants to buy them. If neither of those factors apply,
bring some trade goods to barter with (or sell for local currency), as
your Imperial Credits are about as valuable as banana peels.

If I were a TL-7 President, and some alien showed up with a hold full
of TL-9 medicines, anti-grav plates, and other wonderful things, I'd be
happy if he paid me for my radioactives, artworks and such with 
banana peels - if he were willing to accept those banana peels for
the treasures in his hold. If all I had were the promise that other traders
might show up and offer me stuff for those banana peels, I'd be a bit
more cautious - and probably go for barter.

I have a copy of the _Justifiers_ sci-fi RPG, it represents a corporate-
controlled society dominated by one of the megacorps. Trans-Stellar (I think) 
had a monopoly on the secret of Interstellar Travel, and managed (through 
murderous and secret commando raids) to keep others from discovering the 
secret. One day the board of Trans-Stellar proclaimed that they would pay 
for everything in Trans-Stellar credits that were worth such-and-such, and 
would only accept Trans-Stellar credits for things like FTL drives, parts for 
such drives, training in how to use them, etc. Almost overnight, the Stellar
was the only medium of trade. The game was set in a period of early
exploration, it didn't explore what would happen to this society when the
corporate state met another civilization that didn't need Trans-Stellar's
clunky FTL tech.


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 19:07:53 -0500
From: "Jeremy Reaban" <frankpul@stlnet.com>
Subject: Re: Archaeology in Traveller

My favorite published adventures for Traveller (or for any system), are
Archaeologically based - the Sky Raiders Trilogy from Fasa.

I think the key is, not to get bogged down in the actual archaeology part.
While the results are fascinating, the actual digging up of objects on site
is incredibly boring (I was planning on a career in Archaeology, until I
discovered this). I don't see how it would get any less boring in the
future, unless you use robots.

So, I'd gloss over on the dig part, but highlight the objects discovered.
Try to think up some weird objects, and have the players try to puzzle them
out.  Have one of the objects seem to lead to some sort of legendary prize
- - a lost city (or planet) of riches, the fountain of youth, the secret of
Jump-10, whatever, and then the players try to track down the prize - by
looking at other ruins for clues and maps, tracking down grizzled old
explorers, etc.

Don't use dice for this (skill check or whatever), make a drawing of the
artifact, and show it to the players. If they are dense, use an NPC to
nudge their minds to a correct solution, or make them search for someone
that can decipher the artifact (but will need the players to do him a
favor).

Also play up the superstition angle - if there are natives of the planet
doing most the work, have them be frightened about the 'curse' or
something...

You also need a nemesis, who is also looking for the big prize, but wants
to use it for evil purposes......and the characters will have to fight
against mainstream archaeologists, who tend to be somewhat narrow minded
when it comes to legendary prizes or controversial theories.

In other words, try to follow the Indiana Jones movies, or maybe even the
Dirk Pritt novels. They're not good archaeology, but they're exciting. 

                                           Jeremy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:09:32
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #472

>Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 12:45:53 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
>
>
>Working with Merchant Prince et al, filling the hold with speculative cargo
>is not always possible becaus (1) the amount of cash on hand is
>insufficient to buy up a full hold or (2) (on smaller pop worlds - like 3-)
>there is not enough cargo to fill the hold available.  In situations of
>this sort there is no reason not to rent hold space to the next destination.
>

Firstly, being grossly undercapitalised is a good way to go broke in any
business. Personally, I find it very hard to believe that anyone with any
signifigant equity at all in a starship cannot borrow a couple of
megacredits for a couple of months essentially on request.

Secondly, if there isnt enough speculative cargo on hand to fill the hold,
why should there be enough freight ?

>In any case, I really liked your work from before and look forward to the
>next revision.

Thanks. I fear that means I will have to dredge out the old copy and
finish/fix the damn thing. And this means writing in local currency values,
because I hate the kludge thats in there now.

>
>Pete
>

>Date: Fri, 8 May 98 21:59 
>From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
>Subject: Traveller Economics Stuff (fwd)
>
>	I have to disagree. The Imperial Credit is backed by the fact
>	than any Imperial Subsidary Liner or Trader has to carry one
>	displacement ton one jump for 1000Cr, and that is has to carry
>	high, medium and low passage at standard rates. For this reason
>	the IC did'nt show inflation, even if local currencies did when
>	a single government deceided to invent own lumps. Those government
>	had gone back to IC based currency using the TL/StarPort conversion
>	most times. Only Lancian governments had shown some the anti
>	vilani tradition of having own currencies, and extrem tax when
>	exchanging them to IC, until Arabelatra stoped them to do so.
>

The big problem with this is the cost of trade, as denominated in Imperial
Credits falls as the Imperium becomes more technologically advanced.

This is because cargo is carried in ships that are themselves bought with
local currencies.

Imagine for a second that we have a trade route for which the optimum ship
is a jump-2 ship. In a TL11 empire, the ship will have to be a
state-of-the-art vessel, as good as anything used by the Navy. Now, lets
fast-forward a thousand years to a rich, happy and decadent TL15 empire ...
with a TL11 shipyard in it.

Now, this planet wants to earn hard currency so it can buy TL15 goods.
Therefore, it dicounts the price of it's ships by 30%, but only if you pay
in Imperial Credits.It does this, because who would buy a TL11 ship if it
costs the same as a state of the art vessel ?

A merchant wanting to do the jump-2 run could therefore borrow less money
(leading to lower ship payments) for a ship that could do the run. Since
his costs are lower, either his profits are higher (which will pull
competitors in when they notice) or she can lower her prices to get more
freight. Most probably, the second thing will happen in the long run.

>	BackToTrav: Perhaps similiar things also happens to low tech
>	worlds, as the starport exchange table gives them the advantage
>	in terms of trade (imho).

See my above point about worlds with undervalued currencies building
starships whose earnings are in hard currencies.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:08 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire

I am curious to know, for those of you using T4 rules, how you handle 
burst fire, as opposed to auto fire.  For example, the ACR has an 
option to fire 3 round bursts.  However, now difference is listed for 
damage, or the possiblity to hit other targets.  Thanks for the 
input.


James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 8 May 1998 22:33:02 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: Massive Traveller Sale]

Thanks Paul.
    I went there right away and got my requests in right away.  They
responded back and I got to score about six items.  Thanks again.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com>
Subject: [Fwd: Massive Traveller Sale]


>Saw this, thought you would want to know
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 00:16:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller 

> Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 
> > Hrmph, they said similar things when the "Gold Standard" was dropped in the
> > 1800s.
> 
> Oops, Pete.  It was Nixon who took us off the Gold Standard.  So sometime
> between 1968 and 1972.

The U>S> went off the Gold Standard in the late 1860's / early 1870's in order 
to let the currency inflate so they could pay off the debt of the Civil War.  
They called it the 'Greenback Inflation' & it's where we get the slang term 
'greenbacks' from.  The U.S. went off the Gold Standard for good in 1912 with 
the passing of the Federal Reserve Act.
 
Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 23:40:44 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: web sites (fwd)

At 10:06 PM 5/8/98, you wrote:

>	I've told it, several of them several times. But its like
>	running against windmills. Please use white background, and
>	standard forground colors of users preferences. This is also
>	much better, if you think about people who want to print your
>	page.

The content-heavy portions of my pages (the guns, the upcoming starships
and Lunion pages) are done in a more standard dark over light format.  It
is the ability to do spectacular things that makes the web so attractive.
I have  a huge mucking .GIF on my Traveller page, but most people love it.

98% of my visitors come in using some form of Netscape or IE.  I have to
design for the majority.

I always welcome feedback on my pages.. everyone has either a mail link or
guestbook.. if someone finds something broken or unreadible, please tell me!
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 04:37:25 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> > Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> >
> > > Hrmph, they said similar things when the "Gold Standard" was dropped in the
> > > 1800s.
> >
> > Oops, Pete.  It was Nixon who took us off the Gold Standard.  So sometime
> > between 1968 and 1972.
>
> The U>S> went off the Gold Standard in the late 1860's / early 1870's in order
> to let the currency inflate so they could pay off the debt of the Civil War.
> They called it the 'Greenback Inflation' & it's where we get the slang term
> 'greenbacks' from.  The U.S. went off the Gold Standard for good in 1912 with
> the passing of the Federal Reserve Act.
>
> Keven

Well, imagine my shame.  Why then is it in my head, and several texts, that it was
Nixon?
Perhaps he did something slightly different?  Perhaps, having to do with the
Federal Reserve Bank?  I'll concede the point for now, with apologies to Peter, but
I'll also do some research.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 07:29:51 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler

A good example of an archeology adventure is the old Sky Raiders Trilogy
from FASA.

It's got hunting for clues about a legend nobody really believes.
Action and a reoccurring
Villain.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 10:32:04 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Non-Traveller stuff for sale.  PC Games.

Hey all, sorry to stray from the topic, but I find myself in sudden dire
need of fast cash.  Thus being the case I am going to sell a lot of my
software.  I have the following titles uf for grabs.

Frontier Elite (A clasic) $10.00
X-Com (the original) $10.00
Thunderscape $10.00
Hexen (damaged box) $10.00
Pax Imperia:Eminent Domain (Damaged Box) $15.00
Rules Of Engagement 2 (Will plug into Breach 2) $10.00
Outpost 2:Devided Destiny (Damaged Box) $15.00
Stars! (Damaged Box, Missing some docs) $7.00
AD&D Core Rules CD-Rom $15.00

Non Computer Cames
Netrunner CCG starter decks (I have 6 of them) $5.00 ea
Gurps:Space $5.00
Gurps:Magic $5.00
Gurps:Grimoir $5.00
AD&D Castles :3-Dimensional Game Accessory $5.00
Novels:    $1.00 (unless otherwise noted)
    The gathering flame
    The price of the stars
    By honor betray'd
    Sword Dancer

Please pass this on to anyone who might be interested in theese iteams.  I
am trying to rais money for my GenCon trip.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #473
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Saturday, May 9 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 474



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Investment in Traveller
Price of a Starship
Re: Investment in Traveller 
Re: Investment in Traveller 
Re: Price of a Starship 
Biland (Bland?) cuisine
Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler 
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG 
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Price of a Starship
Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 09:16:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Well, imagine my shame.  Why then is it in my head, and several texts, that it was
> Nixon?
> Perhaps he did something slightly different?  Perhaps, having to do with the
> Federal Reserve Bank?  I'll concede the point for now, with apologies to Peter, but
> I'll also do some research.
>

Ok, we're dealing with different 'Gold Standards' here. Prior to 1912, US
currency was redeemable in gold, after in silver. In the 50's IIRC we went to
the current 'Federal Reserve Note' backed, theoretically by the US Gold
reserves, but US citizens couldn't hold gold as currency, redeem the notes in
anything, and the dollar was pegged at $35/troy oz gold.

What Nixon did was to allow US citizens to buy gold again (as currency for
speculation) and float the dollar vs. gold, having the effect of putting the
dollar into the world money markets, where every currency has only a relative
value to other currencies.

This was in an effort to end the raging inflation and trade imbalances we were
facing.

It may have worked, but taken a long time. (like until now, and required a
merciless hand on the Federal Reserve Rate, may Saint Greenspan preserve us.
:-/ (sarcasm, guys, sarcasm!) Of course, now we're into a new economic model,
and all our theories are pretty well shot, so we're still shooting in the
dark, and don't know if we're in a unprecedented sustained boom, or at the
35th floor of a 60 floor building...as the jumper said "So far, so good!"

The relevance to Traveller really depends on what kind of monetary policy the
Imperium follows. From the fixed pricing of freight and passenger carriage, I
suspect that the Imperial credit _is_ pegged, at the shipping costs of one
displacement ton/one parsec. After all, it _is_ a mercantile empire, and rules
'the space between the stars'.

What I'm not enough of an economist to say, (and was too young when the US
economy was run that way to remember) is what this does to local currencies
and balances of trade vis-a-vis the member states, and the long term effects
of this kind of monetary policy.

What happens, for instance, when the real costs of shipping go up or down? I
think you get either re-valuation of the currency, or uncontrollable
in/deflation of the currency, right?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 15:05:06 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Price of a Starship

All this talk of economics/investments in Traveller leads me
to ask a question that's been bothering me since I first 
started playing Traveller. It's always seemed a little silly
for someone who could afford the 20% downpayment of a MCr30
item to actually part with all that cash just to knock
themselves out trying to make payments for 40 years. So the
question is:

Why *wouldn't* a GM want to knock a zero off the price of
any starship/spaceship?

This would still price the things out of the range of most
people while making it easier to make a profit off the
carrying of freight, not to mention the carrying of
supercargo. PCs would still be stuck with the payments,
etc., etc. After all, even a launch would still cost
MCr1.4 by dropping a decimal place. 20% of MCr1.4 is
Cr280,000, an amount most PCs don't have initially. A GM
could even alter the payoff period from 40 years to 30
or even 20 to modify monthly payments. Heck, let the PCs
*choose* from a number of amortization periods just like
we all can when taking out a car purchase loan.

Doing so would also help justify the existance of
smaller ships versus the massive ones currently
under discussion. Wouldn't banks be *lowering* their
risk by providing loans for many, smaller ships
rather than a single massive ship? Although I can
see the roll a massive ship can play under certain
circumstances, isn't it easier to fill a small ship
than a 100,000dton monster?

Has this been discussed before? Any thoughts?

(So much for my *one* question)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:13:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller 

> 
> 
> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > > Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hrmph, they said similar things when the "Gold Standard" was dropped in the
> > > > 1800s.
> > >
> > > Oops, Pete.  It was Nixon who took us off the Gold Standard.  So sometime
> > > between 1968 and 1972.
> >
> > The U>S> went off the Gold Standard in the late 1860's / early 1870's in order
> > to let the currency inflate so they could pay off the debt of the Civil War.
> > They called it the 'Greenback Inflation' & it's where we get the slang term
> > 'greenbacks' from.  The U.S. went off the Gold Standard for good in 1912 with
> > the passing of the Federal Reserve Act.
> >
> > Keven
> 
> Well, imagine my shame.  Why then is it in my head, and several texts, that it was
> Nixon?
> Perhaps he did something slightly different?  Perhaps, having to do with the
> Federal Reserve Bank?  I'll concede the point for now, with apologies to Peter, but
> I'll also do some research.

IIRC, Nixon jammed through some legislation allowing American citizens to won 
gold bullion.  It *USED* to be illegal except for jewelry.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:25:21 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller 

> Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> > Well, imagine my shame.  Why then is it in my head, and several texts, that it was
> > Nixon?
> > Perhaps he did something slightly different?  Perhaps, having to do with the
> > Federal Reserve Bank?  I'll concede the point for now, with apologies to Peter, but
> > I'll also do some research.
> >
> 
> Ok, we're dealing with different 'Gold Standards' here. Prior to 1912, US
> currency was redeemable in gold, after in silver. In the 50's IIRC we went to
> the current 'Federal Reserve Note' backed, theoretically by the US Gold
> reserves, but US citizens couldn't hold gold as currency, redeem the notes in
> anything, and the dollar was pegged at $35/troy oz gold.

I could have *SWORN* FRN's came out in the 30's during the Depression.  Have 
to ask my dad about this; he was there, I wasn't...

> The relevance to Traveller really depends on what kind of monetary policy the
> Imperium follows. From the fixed pricing of freight and passenger carriage, I
> suspect that the Imperial credit _is_ pegged, at the shipping costs of one
> displacement ton/one parsec. After all, it _is_ a mercantile empire, and rules
> 'the space between the stars'.

Makes sense.  After all, what kind of specie metal are you going to peg it to 
that can't be created at ridiculously high tech levels?  The instant the money 
supply expands, you get inflation.

SOT:  You guys ever read Schizmatrix?  They used a bunch of different 
'currencies' backed by all kinds of things, from gold to pharmaceuticals to 
sex.  Made for some interesting reading...

> What I'm not enough of an economist to say, (and was too young when the US
> economy was run that way to remember) is what this does to local currencies
> and balances of trade vis-a-vis the member states, and the long term effects
> of this kind of monetary policy.
>
> What happens, for instance, when the real costs of shipping go up or down? I
> think you get either re-valuation of the currency, or uncontrollable
> in/deflation of the currency, right?

I remember reading about currency transports a few times in CT.  Plus, one 
adventure in the *OLD* JTAS talked about a shipment of cash for the qarterly 
payroll of some Imperial troups, lost in a lake on a Tech 7 balkanised world, 
right on the border of a country that was basically Nazi Germany and the other 
was the Soviet Union.

Fun stuff.  Especially when both sides had atomic weapons *AND* were 
xenophobes to the max.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 16:55:19 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Price of a Starship 

> Doing so would also help justify the existance of
> smaller ships versus the massive ones currently
> under discussion. Wouldn't banks be *lowering* their
> risk by providing loans for many, smaller ships
> rather than a single massive ship? Although I can
> see the roll a massive ship can play under certain
> circumstances, isn't it easier to fill a small ship
> than a 100,000dton monster?

Assume the monster freighters (over 20,000 dt) are on regular lines.  Most 
info I've seen on freight lines under CT/HG use 5000 to 10000 dt hulls.  Bulk 
freighters are sort of like current freighters on Earth here, they carry 
standard cargo 'cans' or holds that are basically tanks for liquids.  These 
carry the majority of cargo on the major lanes, which ties into the cargo 
rules in CT pretty good.  The 'leftovers', odd lots, and speculative cargo is 
where the smaller (under 1000 dt) hulls start being profitable.  I've *NEVER* 
run a CT ship and made payments & maintanance *WITHOUT* speculative trading.  
The rules are set up to keep the PCs a bit on the broke side, and rightly so.  
Broke PCs adventure.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 17:16:45 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Biland (Bland?) cuisine

> BTW Loren
>I am assuming that the info on Vland as laid out in the MT Vilani & Vargr
book
>is still canon.  

I always thought they went a little beyond what was originally intended...but
don't let that stop you...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:35:04 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler 

> A good example of an archeology adventure is the old Sky Raiders Trilogy
> from FASA.
> 
> It's got hunting for clues about a legend nobody really believes.
> Action and a reoccurring Villain.

The FASA stuff was *GREAT*.  Every adventure had all KINDS of goodies in it.  
Course, most of them were done by the Keiths.  Anybody know what ever happened 
to them?  I've seen Loren post a bit here, & I've got Andy Slack's website 
bookmarked heavily <grin>

Keven



- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 17:44:49 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG 

> >s.johnson107@genie.geis.com wrote:
> >>
> >>         After much thought, and with no little trepidation I might add, I
> >> thought I'd take a stab at laying out the evolution Vilani cuisines.
> >>BTW Loren
> >> I am assuming that the info on Vland as laid out in the MT Vilani &
> >>Vargr book
> >> is still canon.  So here goes... ;)
> >
> >WOW! Well done!
> >
> >One quibble:
> >
> >Not having yeasts means either: a) no beer or wine, or any alcoholic
> >beverages or b) having a perfectly viable substitute, in which case you
> >get leavened bread somewhere along the line, _particularly_ if you're
> >brewing beer or wine in the vicinity.
> 
> Grain Alcohol can be made by distilling, but is a much harder thing to
> "stumble on to" than fermentation with yeast.  It also means that all
> alcoholic beverages are "hard" liquor rather than a less potent wine or
> beer analogue.

Gotta *HAVE* alcohol there to begin with.  No yeast means no alcohol in the 
brew.  I'm assuming there was a 'yeastoid' critter somewhere on Vland that 
they tamed to make their booze with.  One thing they drilled into my head was, 
if there is an ecological niche to fill, *SOMETHING* will evolve to fill it.  
Of course, this 'yeastoid' will be a closely guarded secret...

> Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
> digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
> undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
> bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because some
> bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.

Nope.  Yeasts are more closely related to fungi, IIRC.  Different class of critter from bacteria.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:25:36 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 

> Kevin Pittsinger wrote:

*sigh*  I've been fighting this for 40-someought years now.  K-E-V-*E*-N, 
please.

> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I see *ZERO* reasons why drop tanks or external dismountables should be immune to damage.  And IIRC, the shattered tank hit came from a BFG hit like a meson gun.  Lemme dig out my HG & check it, I'll get back to ya.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Granted, if anything such external tanks would be *more* susceptible
> to damage - should often be damaged even if the nicely-armored ship
> is not, should be damaged by things that blow right through them and 
> hurt other things on the ship, etc.

Agreed.  Kind of like shooting through a bush to get the grunt behind it.  The 
bush provides *cover* but not a lot of *armour*...

> There were a few fuel hits on the internal damage tables that would
> erode your total fuel tankage, and a critical hit result that shattered your
> internal fuel tanks altogether. In HG, critical hits were caused by hits from
> weapons with a higher factor than your ship's size class, IIRC. These
> were most often BFG's, but secondary weapons could do hits like these
> to sub-1000 ton vessels - not that you'd have much use for such things
> in the line of battle.

Which things?  The sub-1000 dt boats?  Sure you would, especially in TNE, 
where maintaining a BCB would be a *real* bitch.  From what I gather of the HG 
rules, *anything* that can produce an internal explosion, whether meson/paws 
or nuke, can hit tankage.

The way I've handled external tankage is, you know the size of the boat plus 
the tanks.  If the boat itself is 80% of the total, it takes 80% of the hits.  
That's 4 of 5 for the mathematically challanged.  Throw percentage dice (left 
over from that Other Treehugging Game We Played As Kids Before We Knew 
Better), and anything over 80% hits the tanks.  Resolve it as normal, against 
an armour factor of *0* (CT/HG).

As per 'pressurised tanks', I don't believe in them.  You can only compress a 
liquid so far.  Even a liter of water in the Marianas Trench has the same 
volume *AND MASS* as a liter that comes out of your kitchen faucet.  It's just 
under *humumgous* pressure because it's got a couple of *MILES* of water 
sitting on top of it.  Since LHyd is already as 'packed' as it can be, there's 
no real reason for high pressures.  Thus the Factor 40 armour on MT tanks 
makes zero sense to me, assuming that you attach the tankage in orbit at a 
high port. It just has to get you to the jump point, and no special 
engineering would be needed as it would only be *just strong enough* to do the 
job.  Why overbuild it?

I *also* treat external dismountable tanks as *hulls*, since they have to be 
more durable.  YMMV.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 18:44:47 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:


> As per 'pressurised tanks', I don't believe in them.  You can only compress a
> liquid so far.  Even a liter of water in the Marianas Trench has the same
> volume *AND MASS* as a liter that comes out of your kitchen faucet.  It's just
> under *humumgous* pressure because it's got a couple of *MILES* of water
> sitting on top of it.  Since LHyd is already as 'packed' as it can be, there's
> no real reason for high pressures.

The difference is between gaseous and liquid states.  At temperatures higher than 100C, the pressure required to keep water liquid increases dramatically.

In the case of LHyd, you've got to keep it down near 0K or increase the pressure greatly.  Optionally, you could let the temperature go up and just let the volume increase as well.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:19:48 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Bruce Johnson wrote:

[snip]

> What Nixon did was to allow US citizens to buy gold again (as currency for
> speculation) and float the dollar vs. gold, having the effect of putting the
> dollar into the world money markets, where every currency has only a relative
> value to other currencies.

Thanks for that info and explanation, and for corroborating my notion that Nixondid
something having to do with gold and currency ;-)

[snip]

> What I'm not enough of an economist to say, (and was too young when the US
> economy was run that way to remember) is what this does to local currencies
> and balances of trade vis-a-vis the member states, and the long term effects
> of this kind of monetary policy.

Wouldn't it encourage a currency market among established member worlds?A Sylean Dollar
vs. a Vilani Mark kind of deal?

> What happens, for instance, when the real costs of shipping go up or down? I
> think you get either re-valuation of the currency, or uncontrollable
> in/deflation of the currency, right?

  This is along the lines of what I was thinking, i.e., very complex processes at
work.  And not worth the trouble, for game play at least, but fun to think about.
Hopefully, we can solve this problem by the time we have a real need for
an interstellar economy.  ;-)


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:22:39 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Price of a Starship

warlock@imagin.net wrote:

> Why *wouldn't* a GM want to knock a zero off the price of
> any starship/spaceship?

Because a ship costs a certain amount to produce.
If you want the PCs to get a ship, there are lots of ways to
do that.  But reducing the cost by a power of 10 would be
an unrealistic way of doing it, because that 30 MCr ship
costs that much for a reason.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:09:16
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Traveller Economics Stuff

>Date: Fri, 08 May 1998 18:10:20 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>> >From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>> >
>> >Better to not even go there.
>>
>> No. What needs to happen is us economics gearheads need to figure out how
>> it works in detail, then we need to build a simplified but still working
>> model that is usable and enjoyable for non-economics gearheads.
>
>Assuming this even possible, I welcome it.
>

My plan is

(a) get GUTT working. This will give us a static model of imports and
exports by type (cheap, moderate, expensive and military) for all worlds in
a trading area (once we link it in to PE, you can get a dynamic model). 

(b) analyse the trade patterns of, say, the Spinward Marches

(c) write up the major trade routes

(d) build trade tables for worlds based on their 'profile'

(e) get people to playtest it.

>> The Imperial Credit, by the way, is worth exactly what people think they
>> can buy with it - nothing more, nothing less (it's a fiduciary currency). I
>> can imagine an interstellar currency based on lumps of some useful metal
>> (eg lanthanum, which is used for jump grids), but the Imperial Credit
>> doesnt have such a base.
>
>We don't disagree.  However, I think the Imperial Credit must be
subsidized, and
>prices may even be fixed, because without such safeguards, inflation would
be a
>tremendous danger to the economy.

Let me tell you a dark economic history secret. Inflation is the historical
norm, and is reasonably harmless to an economy. You can even survive
hyper-inflation. As long as the rate of price increase is reasonably
stable, you can discount against it easily.

Deflation, on the other hand, is a horror. We dont know if you can get out
by yourself, either - prolonged deflation has usually ended up in major
exogenous shocks (ie wars).

Making a decision to spend money on capital investment is a lot harder when
you know your money will be worth more tomorrow than it is today, and that
the goods your capital investment will produce will be worth less. Turning
money into less money isnt what capitalism is based on, after all ...

>
>> Buying a starship is well beyond the resources of a starting starship-free
>> party. Even using every undocumented trick in the book (MCr40 stripped-down
>> ship built with 20% bulk-construction discount, with another 40% discount
>> for being built TL11 credits in a TL15 Imperium with a final 40% discount
>> for being 40 years old), you still get a deposit in the megacredit range.
>
>Sure, but acquiring that sum depends on the size of the party and whether
they're
>trying to puchase it day one after chargen or not.
>
>Wait a second, I'm not familiar with all these tricks.
>Say the ship cost 30 MCr.
>- -20% for bulk construction = 24 MCr
>- -40% for TL 11 = 19.2 MCr
>- -40% for 40 years old = 11.5 MCr.
>
>A 20% down payment is 2.3 MCr.
>8 3-term PCs with lucky cash rolls could afford this.

Maybe. But it isnt likely they will all be that lucky. Banks may also get
leery about lending money with a 40 year repayment schedule secured on a 40
year old starship.

BTW those tricks come out of the Mercenary "bulk buying" rules (ok, they
were thinking of buying 5.56mm rounds in bulk, not Far Traders *grin*), the
Striker local credit value rules and the traditional 10% per 10 years old
discount for old starships (which dates from Little Black Book 2, I think).

>
>> Secondly, it isnt easy to make ships disappear, unless you assume that a
>> starship creates no paperwork.
>
>They're easy to blow up, misjump, float adrift, get stolen, etc.  I guess
this
>depends on how heavily trafficked YTU is.
>

If I was a bank, I wouldnt be lending money on a captain whose business
plans involve a likelihood of any of the above. Remember, until the
mortgage is paid off, the bank owns the ship.

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
>
>Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>
>> > Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>> >
>> The U>S> went off the Gold Standard in the late 1860's / early 1870's in
order
>> to let the currency inflate so they could pay off the debt of the Civil
War.
>> They called it the 'Greenback Inflation' & it's where we get the slang term
>> 'greenbacks' from.  The U.S. went off the Gold Standard for good in 1912
with
>> the passing of the Federal Reserve Act.
>>
>> Keven
>
>Well, imagine my shame.  Why then is it in my head, and several texts,
that it was
>Nixon?
>Perhaps he did something slightly different?  Perhaps, having to do with the
>Federal Reserve Bank?  I'll concede the point for now, with apologies to
Peter, but
>I'll also do some research.
>
>Bloo

OK. This is off memory. Will someone near a University library please go an
look up 'Bretton Woods' in a copy of the New Palgrave Dictionary of
Economics ?

In the 1930s, the world moved from having the UK Pound as the world reserve
currency to the US Dollar filling this role. This was formalised after WW2
with the Bretton Woods agreement, which fixed major world currencies
against the US dollar, and linked the US dollar to gold at a rate of $35 an
ounce.

The end of the post-war Long Boom resulted in many stresses to the Western
economies, and one of the results of this was President Nixon's decision to
de-link the US dollar from gold, and the adoption by almost all countries
of floating exchange rates (usually managed within a band by central banks).

Now, in the 19th century there was a similar process, except it involved
the demonitisation of silver rather than of gold. The US had traditionally
been a silver currency (see the silver dimes and dollars, as opposed to the
golden soveriegn of Britain), but in the late 19th century it moved to a
gold standard along with everybody else. This may have happened on or
around the American Civil War.

Now, to bring this ObTrav, I think we have 3 schools of thought

(1) the Credit is linked to the cost of transport

(2) the Credit is based on some physical good

and (3) the credit isnt based on anything.

I think a good compromise is that (1) applied in the First Imperium, (2)
applied in the Second Imperium (the Lanthanum Standard ?) and (3) applied
in the Third Imperium.

The deflation problem with (1) isnt really an issue in the technologically
stable First Imperium. 

The 'canon' refusal of the Central Bank in -1776 to authorise a monetary
issue by a subsiduary that was the traditional start date of Long Night
could be explained by them refusing to authorise an issue by a bank that
didnt have the neccessary Lanthanum in stock. Hey, that even makes sense
*grin* - "We must maintain Hard Money at all costs".

The early Third Imperium traded a lot and had a technological advantage
over it's neighbours, so they presumably would be willing to accept
unbacked Sylean Credits. After a while, people just got used to the fact
that if you took a Sylean Credit to the Bank of Sylea, they would give you
back a nice, shiny Sylean Credit.

Does this make sense to people ?

Ian Whitchurch 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:23:41 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century 

> Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
> > As per 'pressurised tanks', I don't believe in them.  You can only compress a
> > liquid so far.  Even a liter of water in the Marianas Trench has the same
> > volume *AND MASS* as a liter that comes out of your kitchen faucet.  It's
> > just under *humumgous* pressure because it's got a couple of *MILES* of
> > water
> > sitting on top of it.  Since LHyd is already as 'packed' as it can be,
> > there's no real reason for high pressures.
> 
> The difference is between gaseous and liquid states.  At temperatures higher > than 100C, the pressure required to keep water liquid increases dramatically.

Yeah, but we're talkin LHyd here, *NOT* water.  I can't remember the boiling 
point of LHyd, but I *do* know it's in the 10's of degrees Kelvin, *damned* 
close to Absolute Zero.

> In the case of LHyd, you've got to keep it down near 0K or increase the
> pressure greatly.  Optionally, you could let the temperature go up and just
> let the volume increase as well.

It really wouldn't be worthwhile to compress hydrogen to liquid.  Cheaper & 
easier to just cool it down & liquefy it.

Maybe install a 'heater' in the 'bottom' of the tank to boil off some LHyd at 
a reasonable flow rate to feed the reactors...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:20:18 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

> > In the case of LHyd, you've got to keep it down near 0K or increase the
> > pressure greatly.  Optionally, you could let the temperature go up and just
> > let the volume increase as well.
>
> It really wouldn't be worthwhile to compress hydrogen to liquid.  Cheaper &
> easier to just cool it down & liquefy it.
>

Umm... just how easy is it to chill something to near absolute zero?  Especially without something to dump the heat into?  Note that ships with purification
plants apparently do this often.  Skim gas giant at a temperature significantly higher than zero K (Gas Giants tend to radiate energy). Process the fuel in space
with no heat sink.  The only way I can see doing it is by compressing the gas into a liquid.

> Maybe install a 'heater' in the 'bottom' of the tank to boil off some LHyd at
> a reasonable flow rate to feed the reactors...

I think that is completely unnecessary.  IIRC, the LHyd is used as coolant for the fusion reactor.  That's going to heat SOME (sarcasm) of that hydrogen to a
gaseous state.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:54:19 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!

> >It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
> >automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The Romans
> >possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
> >machinegun.
> 


I believe the romans did not have "steel" but mainly bronze and some
iron.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #474
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 10 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 475



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Boston
re: Price of a Starship
Steel
Re:  fuel liquification
Re: Investment in Traveller
What is the buzz.
Errata for Vampire Fleets
LHyd
Re: the Keiths
Re: fuel liquification
Re: the Keiths
TRTOOLS project update
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG
Re: web sites (fwd)
Re: Berthing costs
scratches can be deadly
Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: Boston
Re: TRTOOLS project update 
Re: Steel 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:59:50 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

>



> > In the case of LHyd, you've got to keep it down near 0K or increase the
> > pressure greatly.  Optionally, you could let the temperature go up and just
> > let the volume increase as well.
>
> It really wouldn't be worthwhile to compress hydrogen to liquid.  Cheaper &
> easier to just cool it down & liquefy it.

I did a little more research.  Hydrogen has a critical temperature of -240 C
and critical pressure of 12.8 atm.  Above -240 C, no amount of pressure will
liquefy hydrogen. At that temperature, it has to be under  at least 12.8
atmospheres of pressure. That means that you've got to keep it under pressure
AND cold.

Note that water has critical temp of 374 C with a critical pressure of 218 Atm.
THAT is a lot of pressure.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 20:17:12 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston

> Jory Earl wrote:
> > I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes be 
> > bought?
> 
> You can get cheap, but  not cheap & safe....


Yeah, I found out the prices even in New Hampshire are ridiculous.  I'm
back to renting..SIGH.Even the rents are insane.  I saw a few places for
450-550 range, but I can't believe HUMANS live in such dumps.  They were
buildings that should be condemned.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:11:18 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: re: Price of a Starship

> Why *wouldn't* a GM want to knock a zero off the price of
> any starship/spaceship?

I'd have to agree with Keven here, against changing the prices that 
drastically.  My players are about to buy their first ship soon.  The 
fact that they need to come up with over 4 Mcr just for a down 
payment has _severely_motivated them to look for work (great 
adventuring), look for cargo (more adventuring), and save everything 
they can get their hands on!

However .... If you want your players to have a ship, look at using 
one of the standard designs (usually affording a 25% discount), or 
something used.  That might be a fun way to add adventure to the 
game.  I always think of the Millenium Falcon .... Han always having 
to kick it and pray it went into jump space just before the bad guys 
arrived!

You could also have a scout NPC that "happens" to have a ship.  They 
could then be hired on as crew, or simply use the ship to travel.  Of 
course, the expenses of running the ship are still there, just not 
the monthly payments.

 
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:37:42 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Steel

>Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:54:19 -0700
>From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
>Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
>
>> >It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
>> >automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The
Romans
>> >possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
>> >machinegun.
>> 
>
>
>I believe the romans did not have "steel" but mainly bronze and some
>iron.

Several steel sword blades have been recovered (maybe some armor as well).
Ref: _Roman Military Equipment_, (Bishop and Coulston, ISBN 0-7134-6637-5).
They could not _cast_ iron (contemporary Chinese could and did), but some
smiths could turn out crude steel. Several examples of the swords have
tempered edges welded to a nice, springy center (sorry for the lack of
technical terms here) and a couple were pattern-welded.

That said, count me among the "machineguns were probably beyond them" group,
(although Hero's craftsmen could probably have made a crude gatling-like
creation for show).

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 22:07:46 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  fuel liquification

>Umm... just how easy is it to chill something to near absolute zero?  Especially
>without something to dump the heat into?  Note that ships with purification
>plants apparently do this often.  Skim gas giant at a temperature significantly
>higher than zero K (Gas Giants tend to radiate energy). Process the fuel in space
>with no heat sink.  The only way I can see doing it is by compressing the gas in
>to a liquid.

Starships are already shuffling megawatts of waste heat around and dumping it
out through their radiatiors. Running a refrigerator to liquify the hydrogen 
adds relatively little to this amount - just a bit more waste heat (plus
power for the refrigerator.) You don't need a heat sink per se - just
a place for heat to radiate away to, like empty space.

Compressing it to be a liquid is Bad - it would actually heat the 
hydrogen (depending on how you compressed it) and involve really, really,
really, really high pressures.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 21:16:52 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

>From: "Steve Rennell" <software@spis.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
...
>I'm still trying to get my head around what the numbers look 
>like if you expect 1 ship in 20 to be written off/destroyed before 
>the amortisation period. Whether banks would require insurance, and  
>the cost of insurance? I've heard of people paying 110% premiums

  A very large company will probably self-insure. I don't know
whether most banks would, but then, how do mega-corps behave?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:34:12 -0500
From: Charlie Moore <brrecluse@ibm.net>
Subject: What is the buzz.

Hell Folks
 I have benn off list for months and out of touch with my favorite game about as long. What is going on with T4 and IG. What is this about a GURPS/Traveller game? Can anyone fill me in?
                                                                                              Thanks
                                                                                        Charlie Moore

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 08:35:07 +0300 (EET DST)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Errata for Vampire Fleets

Hi!

I recently acquired a copy of Vampire fleets. Not as great work as other
GDW's Traveller products, but still usable. (Well, RC is not very good
campaign, IMO)

One thing still evades me : is there somewhere a system for virii
combatting together in the book? On page 12 is a reference to page 13 for
use of Combat Value a virii, but nothing on the facing page. I leafed
through the book, but could not find the combat procedure anywhere.
I would be very happy if somebody would post some errata, or point me to
it.

- --
Mikko Parviainen
 IMTU tc+ tm++ tn+ ru+ ge++ 3i+ jt-- jd++ pi au st- ls kk hi++ dr++ as+
va+ so- zh+ da++ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:02:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: LHyd

>Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
...
>In the case of LHyd, you've got to keep it down near 0K or increase the
pressure greatly.  Optionally, you could let the temperature go up and just
let the volume increase as well.

20 K, which anyone doing cryogenics will genuinely bitch about how far from
absolute zero that really is (for their purposes, anyway).

>Umm... just how easy is it to chill something to near absolute zero?
Especially without something to dump the heat into?  Note that ships with
purification
>plants apparently do this often.  Skim gas giant at a temperature
significantly higher than zero K (Gas Giants tend to radiate energy).
Process the fuel in space
>with no heat sink.  The only way I can see doing it is by compressing the
gas into a liquid.

  It's better to assume it's condensed, otherwise all those pretty "Fuel-1"
hits become Critical hits as tanks pop. That would be just a bit too exciting
to be around, although with advanced nanotech you might be able to unthaw
the engineering crew relatively easily :>

  Precisely how many atmosphers would that be? P=VRT I remember, but the
texts with the numbers are behind my printer stand...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 22:03:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: the Keiths

Hello,
>Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler 
...
>The FASA stuff was *GREAT*.  Every adventure had all KINDS of goodies in it.  
>Course, most of them were done by the Keiths.  Anybody know what ever happened 
>to them?  I've seen Loren post a bit here, & I've got Andy Slack's website 
>bookmarked heavily <grin>

  I understand that they're both writing. William H. Keith, Jr., at least,
has a pretty neat web-site for his stuff, although the URL eludes me. I've
no idea as to whether anyone has contacted them about producing any of their
material or extant manuscripts either for FFE or SJG (or novels, for that
matter).

  AFAIK, they may or may not own the rights to their FASA or Gamelords
products. If they don't own the latter then permission of any sort
could be very hard to arrange at this late date.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 02:22:49 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: fuel liquification

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >Umm... just how easy is it to chill something to near absolute zero?  Especially
> >without something to dump the heat into?  Note that ships with purification
> >plants apparently do this often.  Skim gas giant at a temperature significantly
> >higher than zero K (Gas Giants tend to radiate energy). Process the fuel in space
> >with no heat sink.  The only way I can see doing it is by compressing the gas in
> >to a liquid.
>
> Starships are already shuffling megawatts of waste heat around and dumping it
> out through their radiatiors. Running a refrigerator to liquify the hydrogen
> adds relatively little to this amount - just a bit more waste heat (plus
> power for the refrigerator.) You don't need a heat sink per se - just
> a place for heat to radiate away to, like empty space.
>

Anybody got a thermodynamics handbook handy?  How much radiator surface do you need to
dump that kind of waste heat? I know that real life nuclear power plants end up
dumping lots of heat into rivers or the ocean. I just can't picture dumping heat
through radiation. Its far too inefficient.  IIRC, steam turbines are like 10%
efficient?  Which means that you need to dump 10 times your electric power output in
waste heat.

> Compressing it to be a liquid is Bad - it would actually heat the
> hydrogen (depending on how you compressed it) and involve really, really,
> really, really high pressures.
>

Actually, I think they use the LHyd as the heat sink.  Soak the waste heat into the
liquid hydrogen, then shoot it out the back of your HEPlaR drive.  Still doesn't
explain how you get it that cold in the first place... I think that puts thruster
plates at a bit of a disadvantage, they don't have a handy means of ejecting waste
heat.

> Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 23:45:39 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: the Keiths

At 10:03 PM 5/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>  I understand that they're both writing. William H. Keith, Jr., at least,
>has a pretty neat web-site for his stuff, although the URL eludes me. I've
>no idea as to whether anyone has contacted them about producing any of their
>material or extant manuscripts either for FFE or SJG (or novels, for that
>matter).
>
>  AFAIK, they may or may not own the rights to their FASA or Gamelords
>products. If they don't own the latter then permission of any sort
>could be very hard to arrange at this late date.
>
>        Yours truly,
>                Steven Hudson
>
 
Actually, I had email from Andrew Keith earlier today - they are both still
around and busy writing. You can easily track down their email address' via
Yahoo if you have a pressing need to talk with them, but perhaps this is not
the best of times to do so - Andrew informed me that he and Bill lost both
their parents this last year - their mother less than two weeks ago. Like
me, I'm sure you'll want to add your prayers and well wishes for both of
them at this time.

Ad Astra,
Paul Sanders
timmon@primenet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:22:51 +0800
From: Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: TRTOOLS project update

There's been a few enquiries about TRTOOLS in the last week or so, so I
thought I'd give the list a (brief) update on the project.

The current version is V0.96, this can be found at:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/software.html

I've started work on V1.00 in the past few days.  New features include:

*	Native Linux support

Linux source and binaries will be available.  At this stage, I haven't yet
been able to port the graphics code to FPK Pascal (I'm downloading GNU
Pascal to see if I cn use that instead).  

*	Windows 3.x based front end

At this stage, this will only be a front end to the DOS programs.  I may
produce a Win16 port in the future.

*	Improved error handling (esp. with non-standard format files)
*	Screen dumps to either PCX or BMP format  
*	Improved and rewritten documentation (HTML)


As always, any suggestions or comments are welcome.  Expect to see V1.00 in
4-6 weeks.


Thanx,


Mick Bailey

mickb@opera.iinet.net.au
solomani@hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:46:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

In mail you write:

>         BTW you may have noticed I kept pointing out that the breads
> were unleavened?  Bread is a Wonderful, one of the best ways ever
> discovered to pack vital nutrients into the body.  But the Vilani
> don't have yeast ;) which means they are fairly limited in what they
> can do with grains and flours.  Baking soda only gets you so far you
> understand.

If they don't have yeast, then they don't have alcohol either. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:51:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisines, LONG

In mail you write:

> Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>> Grain Alcohol can be made by distilling, but is a much harder thing to
>> "stumble on to" than fermentation with yeast.  It also means that all
>> alcoholic beverages are "hard" liquor rather than a less potent wine or
>> beer analogue.
>
> Distilling from _what_ is the question. _All_ distilled beverages on
> Earth start with fermented beverages. The alcohol comes from the
> metabolic action of the yeasts just as in beer. All distillation does is
> concentrate the alcohol to higher concentrations that that available
> from fermentation alone (roughly 21% max IIRC). 

It *is* possible to make alcohol via *destructive* distillation, but
that gets messy, and tends to produce methanol and a whole slew of
other nasties.

>> Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
>> digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
>> undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
>> bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because some
>> bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.
>
> Nope. In fact, they're more closely related to US than they are to the
> bacteria in our gut, (which makes yeasts nasty when they turn
> pathogenic. Good thing, too, else we'd get a helluva good buzz out of
> your average high-carbo pasta meal ;-)

I've heard tales of folks who drank some live yeast homebrew and then
had a big spaghetti dinner. End result? Some *really* wasted people.

> Of course, this doesn't mean that some native Vilani microorganism
> doesn't make alcohol out of vilani carbohydrates, or whatever chemical
> that Vilani based life uses. 

Carbohydrates are sufficiently simple and versatile that they'll
probably be used by anything that evolves in a CO2 atmosphere with lots
of water around. 

There may be problems with handedness. But not all carbohydrates *have*
handedness. And ethanol *doesn't*, which means that if there are
yeast-like critters, they may provide a means of turning useless carbs
into something that provides some useful calories.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 00:06:09 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: web sites (fwd)

In mail you write:

> Moin Kagehira,
>
>>     While trying to go along the Traveller webring tonight, I noticed a fair
>> amount of sites had a tendency to use dark fonts against a dark background,
>> causing the text to be either very hard to see or impossible to see. This
>> problem usually occured in links, but not always.
>
>         its even worse in my environment, an Sun3/50. The screen is
>         1152x900 monocrome, which is nice for programming, but a lot of
>         pages display black on black. Some have only their links black on
>         black (extremly funny, move to a black position and guest what's
>         behind the link by reading the URL) some have only visisted
>         links black on black.
>
>         I've told it, several of them several times. But its like
>         running against windmills. Please use white background, and
>         standard forground colors of users preferences. This is also
>         much better, if you think about people who want to print your
>         page.

I've had a normal enough appearing page print as white on white. I
thought the browser was busted until I saw that the url printed ok at
the bottom of the page.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 23:23:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

In mail you write:

> BTW. The cost of a meal in Rhylan Starport [on the airless world Dinom] is
> Cr20 and a room costs Cr100 per day. That's a total of Cr160/day for life
> support. Granted that Rhylan Starport must be considerably bigger than a
> free trader or a subsidized merchant, it can't be all that much bigger
> considering the amount of passenger traffic it must get (Dinom is _not_ a
> major world) and these costs are what the starport charges, not what it
> pays for consumables. In other words, the Cr160/day DOES include power
> consumption, employee salaries, and profit and bank payments, which
> starship life support costs expressly does not.

Actually, it can be (and likely *is*) a fair amount larger. And being a
fixed installation on a planetary surface, it's quite likely that they
use "long term lifesupport". In other words, plants and other goodies
to *recycle* things. A true closed cycle system rather than the open
cycle used on ships.

>>>Where is it established that a misjump can keep you in jump space for four
>>>whole weeks?
>> 
>>In the misjump rules, you roll for jump duration. 1d6 weeks. At least
>>in CT. And I thought someone posted that MT was the same.
>
> I couldn't find that in any of my CT rulebooks. You roll a die for direction
> and 1DD for distance, but not, as far as I can find, for duration.

It's in "The Traveller Book". And I just dug out one of my sets of the
Little Black Books. Book 2, page 6, last sentence: "Finally, throw one
die to setermine the number of weeks spent in jump space before the
ship re-emerges at it's new location."

This is in chapter "Travelling", section "Starship Malfunctions",
subsection "Misjump".

Oh yeah, it's not 1D for distance. It's 1d6 *dice* for distance.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 07:34:36 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: scratches can be deadly

I thought I'd share an interesting turn of events from last
night's Traveller session.

The PCs were involved in a fight with some blade-wielding
tough guys who tried to rob them. The NPCs didn't know that
the PCs had guns (and combat armor, in one PC's case) when
the fight started.

However, in close quarters, a good knife is almost as good
as a gun, so the fight continued. During the course of the
fight, one of the PCs took a hit from a knife.

I play the MT rules, with some T4.1 rules mixed in. The PC
(my wife) took one MT hit, which translated to 1D6 points
of damage after the fight was over. She rolled 1 point:
a surface scratch, and not something to worry about.

Another PC, who has Medic-2, strolled over casually and
did a diagnosis roll. No problem. This particular PC was
full of confidence, because he had just save two other
PCs who were near death from knife wounds. 

He then does the roll to treat the wound and rolls
a 3D6 mishap. The patient takes additional damage. The doctor
rolls to re-diagnose successfully, but can't complete the
treatment in the time allocated before the wound gets more
serious. The patient takes 2D6 more damage, and her
Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance are now 002.

He finally manages to treat her without things getting 
worse. The patient is now under medical slow drug,
recovering from two separate surgeries.

My wife ain't amused.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:52:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff

Ian or Katts wrote:

> My plan is

[snip]

Cool!  Looking forward to it.

> >We don't disagree.  However, I think the Imperial Credit must be subsidized, and
> >prices may even be fixed, because without such safeguards, inflation would be a
> >tremendous danger to the economy.
>
> Let me tell you a dark economic history secret. Inflation is the historical
> norm, and is reasonably harmless to an economy. You can even survive
> hyper-inflation. As long as the rate of price increase is reasonably
> stable, you can discount against it easily.
>
> Deflation, on the other hand, is a horror. We dont know if you can get out
> by yourself, either - prolonged deflation has usually ended up in major
> exogenous shocks (ie wars).

When I said inflation, I really meant to include the idea of both inflation and
deflation, so your point about deflation is well taken.

> >> Secondly, it isnt easy to make ships disappear, unless you assume that a
> >> starship creates no paperwork.
> >
> >They're easy to blow up, misjump, float adrift, get stolen, etc.  I guess
> this
> >depends on how heavily trafficked YTU is.
> >
>
> If I was a bank, I wouldnt be lending money on a captain whose business
> plans involve a likelihood of any of the above. Remember, until the
> mortgage is paid off, the bank owns the ship.

Yeah, but we're talking about PCs here.  You know they're going to get into
trouble.;-)

> OK. This is off memory. Will someone near a University library please go an
> look up 'Bretton Woods' in a copy of the New Palgrave Dictionary of
> Economics ?

"Bretton Woods" rings a bell, but I confuse it with Yalta and Potsdam for some
reason. Never heard of the dictionary you mention.  (Successfully avoided all
macroecon in college except for the survey course.)

> The end of the post-war Long Boom resulted in many stresses to the Western
> economies, and one of the results of this was President Nixon's decision to
> de-link the US dollar from gold, and the adoption by almost all countries
> of floating exchange rates (usually managed within a band by central banks).

Yeah!  I am vindicated!

> Does this make sense to people ?

Its really beginning to.  Your posts are much appreciated.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:58:38 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston

J-Man wrote:

> Yeah, I found out the prices even in New Hampshire are ridiculous.

All the people with real money run there because of the lack of sales tax.

>  I'm back to renting..SIGH.Even the rents are insane.  I saw a few places for
> 450-550 range, but I can't believe HUMANS live in such dumps.  They were
> buildings that should be condemned.

Rentwise, the Boston area has a vacancy rate of around 1%.  Its a seller's
market. If you can find a livable one bedroom/studio under $600, you should buy some
lottery tickets before your luck runs out.

Ob Traveller,

Whats a docking berth at a starport go for these days?  I'd imagine that the
ports
at Sylea would charge a pretty penny.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:25:10 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: TRTOOLS project update 

> I've started work on V1.00 in the past few days.  New features include:
> 
> *	Native Linux support
> 
> Linux source and binaries will be available.  At this stage, I haven't yet
> been able to port the graphics code to FPK Pascal (I'm downloading GNU
> Pascal to see if I cn use that instead).  

Don't bother with GNU pascal unless you like hacking on C compilers.  The 
version I've seen of it (about 9 months ago) was still pretty rough and 
involved hacking up gcc to work.  Plus, only about 70% of Turbo Pascal had 
been implemented,

> *	Improved error handling (esp. with non-standard format files)
> *	Screen dumps to either PCX or BMP format  
> *	Improved and rewritten documentation (HTML)

By non-standard, are you talking about Galactic-style data files?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:07:42 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Steel 

> >Date: Sat, 09 May 1998 19:54:19 -0700
> >From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
> >Subject: Re: Roman Machinegun - I think not!
> >
> >> >It has been shown that the only thing between the Roman Empire and
> >> >automatic firearms was a slight lack of chemical understanding.  The
> Romans
> >> >possessed the fine skill in metal working to produce a nice little
> >> >machinegun.
> >
> >I believe the romans did not have "steel" but mainly bronze and some
> >iron.
> 
> Several steel sword blades have been recovered (maybe some armor as well).
> Ref: _Roman Military Equipment_, (Bishop and Coulston, ISBN 0-7134-6637-5).
> They could not _cast_ iron (contemporary Chinese could and did), but some
> smiths could turn out crude steel. Several examples of the swords have
> tempered edges welded to a nice, springy center (sorry for the lack of
> technical terms here) and a couple were pattern-welded.
> 
> That said, count me among the "machineguns were probably beyond them" group,
> (although Hero's craftsmen could probably have made a crude gatling-like
> creation for show).

I've seen some interesting homebrewed AK47's cranked out by village 
blacksmiths in my time, so don't confuse primitive conditions with 
technological impossibilities.  A good solid reworked high tech copy of a 
lower-tech weapon could really ruin your day.  As far as machine tools go, it 
depends on how you define machine tools.  One 'lathe' I saw was merely a tree 
branch and ropes wrapped around the part and powered by foot like an 1880's 
sewing machine, but the smith was turning out a pretty decent rifle barrel.  
So, from here, it looks like the Romans just needed gunpowder and decent metal 
to create guns...

Nugget:  About 20 years before, somebody carrying a TL12 copy of an AK47 got 
whacked on your TL4 backwater planet.  The local blacksmith took it apart to 
figure out how it worked.  Now there are a few thousand clones laying around...

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #475
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 10 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 476



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Boston
Re: fuel liquification 
Re: Steel 
Re: Errata for Vampire Fleets
Re: Steel 
Re: Boston
Re: Price of a Starship
Re: Investment in Traveller
Hijacking summation?
Stuff 4 Sale--Off Topic
Game 4 Sale--Off Topic
Re: fuel liquification
Archeology in Traveller
Re:Early Vilani Cuisine
re: liquid hydrogen 
FAQs
Re: Steel 
Web Help
Re: Investment in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 11:17:22 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Boston

> Rentwise, the Boston area has a vacancy rate of around 1%.  Its a seller's
> market.If you can find a livable one bedroom/studio under $600, you should buy
> some
> lottery tickets before your luck runs out.

I did manage to find a "livable" apartment in Manchester, for 575 a
month (includes heat/water/elect).  1 Bedroom, modern place, off-street
parking and close to route 93.  However it is still a "make do" since I
have insufficient funds to do otherwise.  The only thing I can think of
to do is go back to school and get some type of degree that will get me
into a job that can support me in that area.  I just have a real problem
doing the school thing.

ObTrav -

When generating characters, we always assume they are confident
go-getter's who never have doubts about taking that next term of
service, or doing good.  While thinking this way speeds up the rolling
process, how realistic is it really?  Wouldn't some character types wash
out of service because they couldn't handle the strain of such
regimented living?  Would academy bound characters have to drop out
before finishing due to lack of funds?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 14:12:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: fuel liquification 

> Anybody got a thermodynamics handbook handy?  How much radiator surface do you need to
> dump that kind of waste heat? I know that real life nuclear power plants end up
> dumping lots of heat into rivers or the ocean. I just can't picture dumping heat
> through radiation. Its far too inefficient.  IIRC, steam turbines are like 10%
> efficient?  Which means that you need to dump 10 times your electric power output in
> waste heat.

Figure room-temperature superconductors at what, TL12 or so?  We can do low 
temp superconductors now, and superconductors are *great* at moving heat 
around.

> > Compressing it to be a liquid is Bad - it would actually heat the
> > hydrogen (depending on how you compressed it) and involve really, really,
> > really, really high pressures.
> >
> 
> Actually, I think they use the LHyd as the heat sink.  Soak the waste heat into the
> liquid hydrogen, then shoot it out the back of your HEPlaR drive.  Still doesn't
> explain how you get it that cold in the first place... I think that puts thruster
> plates at a bit of a disadvantage, they don't have a handy means of ejecting waste
> heat.

You do *NOT* want gaseous hydrogen around!!!!!!!!!!  It's too explosive and 
too hard to contain because it can seep thru just about *anything*

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 10:58:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Steel 

Hello,
>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Steel 
...
>> That said, count me among the "machineguns were probably beyond them" group,
>> (although Hero's craftsmen could probably have made a crude gatling-like
>> creation for show).
>
>I've seen some interesting homebrewed AK47's cranked out by village 
>blacksmiths in my time, so don't confuse primitive conditions with 
>technological impossibilities.  A good solid reworked high tech copy of a 
>lower-tech weapon could really ruin your day.  As far as machine tools go, it 
>depends on how you define machine tools.  One 'lathe' I saw was merely a tree 
>branch and ropes wrapped around the part and powered by foot like an 1880's 
>sewing machine, but the smith was turning out a pretty decent rifle barrel.  
>So, from here, it looks like the Romans just needed gunpowder and decent metal 
>to create guns...

  The "decent metal" is a big caveat. Given the empirical knowledge of
iron forging technology at the time, including the very poor understanding
(and availability) of quality smelted output, the result is more likely to
be a very expensive and inefficient pipe-bomb rather than a weapon that
you'd want to use yourself. This assumes Roman conditions, and also that
I've got the analysis right (it's been quite a while since I studied this
sort of stuff).

>Nugget:  About 20 years before, somebody carrying a TL12 copy of an AK47 got 
>whacked on your TL4 backwater planet.  The local blacksmith took it apart to 
>figure out how it worked.  Now there are a few thousand clones laying around...

  I'll leave it to the experts, but cleaning out "smokeless" powder residue
is bad enough, and the gas wash is not going to be enough to operate the
recoil mechanism, I suspect, in addition to erosion problems (?) due to
metallurgical deficiencies. OC, even a semi-auto _rifle_ is going to be
really and truly awesome to have. OTOH, the cost of the hand-made brass
cartridges made result in your carrying some lower tech weapons for easy
targets.

  I still think that bronze cannon (to break up formations or gates) would
be the appropriate technology for early gunpowder applications. BTW, does
anyone know what the limitations would be on using (cast?) bronze for
shoulder-arms, besides cost?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:27:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Errata for Vampire Fleets

Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:

> One thing still evades me : is there somewhere a system for virii
> combatting together in the book? On page 12 is a reference to page 13 for
> use of Combat Value a virii, but nothing on the facing page.

I don't know about errata, electronic combat is explained on Page 8, in 'The
Vampire Highway' section. The CV is the number of D6's to roll. High total
wins a round, If a puppeteer strain wins three consecutive rounds it has taken
control of the opposing system. A defending system may break off combat after
winning a round by 'firewalling' a part of the system under attack. 

Note, this is soley for electronic combat...the ships also have norml weapons
which are resolved using normal space combat rules.

Also, playing out Virus vs. Virus encounters will probably be rare, unless the
PC's are trapped on one or somehow otherwise connected to the well-being of a vampire.

Finally, the only strain that will initiate electronic combat in this fashion
is the Puppeteer.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:34:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Steel 

>   The "decent metal" is a big caveat. Given the empirical knowledge of
> iron forging technology at the time, including the very poor understanding
> (and availability) of quality smelted output, the result is more likely to
> be a very expensive and inefficient pipe-bomb rather than a weapon that
> you'd want to use yourself. This assumes Roman conditions, and also that
> I've got the analysis right (it's been quite a while since I studied this
> sort of stuff).
> 
> >Nugget:  About 20 years before, somebody carrying a TL12 copy of an AK47 got 
> >whacked on your TL4 backwater planet.  The local blacksmith took it apart to 
> >figure out how it worked.  Now there are a few thousand clones laying around...
> 
>   I'll leave it to the experts, but cleaning out "smokeless" powder residue
> is bad enough, and the gas wash is not going to be enough to operate the
> recoil mechanism, I suspect, in addition to erosion problems (?) due to
> metallurgical deficiencies. OC, even a semi-auto _rifle_ is going to be
> really and truly awesome to have. OTOH, the cost of the hand-made brass
> cartridges made result in your carrying some lower tech weapons for easy
> targets.

Ever see a real live AK close up?  Those puppies are *TOUGH*.  You can drop 
'em in a swamp, run over 'em with a *TANK* fer chrissakes, and they *STILL* 
work.  And they come apart pretty easy for cleaning.  A bit of wood alcohol 
for solvent is good enough to clean 'em, & you can lube them with just about 
anything that's greasy in a pinch.  It's all in the design when you get down 
to it.

>   I still think that bronze cannon (to break up formations or gates) would
> be the appropriate technology for early gunpowder applications. BTW, does
> anyone know what the limitations would be on using (cast?) bronze for
> shoulder-arms, besides cost?

Weight.  To get a strong enough barrel uxing bronze, you'll have to cast it
pretty thick.  It'd be a bitch to lug around all month.  Say, on the order of
10 to 12 pounds endweight of the weapon.  Not something you can run fast with.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:39:55 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Boston

At 11:17 AM 5/10/98 -0700, you wrote:

>I did manage to find a "livable" apartment in Manchester, for 575 a
>month (includes heat/water/elect).

In San Francisco, $575 gets you a walk-in closet and a chance to play
parking space roulette.  Dodging DPT (Dept. of Parking and Traffic, or more
often, Don't Park There) has become one of my roommate's major forms of
amusement.

>ObTrav -
>
>When generating characters, we always assume they are confident
>go-getter's who never have doubts about taking that next term of
>service, or doing good.  While thinking this way speeds up the rolling
>process, how realistic is it really?  Wouldn't some character types wash
>out of service because they couldn't handle the strain of such
>regimented living?  Would academy bound characters have to drop out
>before finishing due to lack of funds?

This is really up to the player.  I remember generating an Army Commando
who got out after three terms and didn't have the greatest combat skills.
I decided he had been a medic, and after his last assignment (a raid on
which he won a SEH and PH) he just couldn't take it anymore and resigned.
It made for an interesting character, since I played him as opposed to
deadly force.

It's up to the player and referee to interpret the dice to flesh out a
character.  The example in Classic of Jamison is perfect, as the dice roll,
we see a better picture of the man.  Also, remember Heinelin's story of the
Navy man who ended up a test pilot because that involved the least amount
of work.. be creative!
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:46:21 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Price of a Starship

> warlock@imagin.net wrote:
> > Why *wouldn't* a GM want to knock a zero off the price of
> > any starship/spaceship?

Bloo replied: 
> Because a ship costs a certain amount to produce.
> If you want the PCs to get a ship, there are lots of ways to
> do that.  But reducing the cost by a power of 10 would be
> an unrealistic way of doing it, because that 30 MCr ship
> costs that much for a reason.

But it only costs that because when the game was originally 
designed those numbers seemed reasonable. If you wanted to 
justify cheap ships, you could, but it would alter the way 
the imperium works - all you need to do is have assumptions 
like "Lanthanum is cheap, and easy to work with an off the 
shelf auto-lathe", "High tech avionics can be built out of stock 
parts very cheaply", "Hulls can be made easily out of 
superdense created by robots using vast amounts of stunningly cheap 
power, because we have cheap plentiful fusion energy" And 
then you have cheap ships, which means cheap transport 
between the stars.

At a meta-game level you need to decide if you want 
starships to be plentiful and easy to get, or expensive and 
difficult to get. That affects whether you have privately 
owned starships, or just Corporation/govt owned ships.

Essentially, decide what you want out of your Universe, and 
you can justify it if you need to.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 19:37:14 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

I had written:
> >I'm still trying to get my head around what the numbers look 
> >like if you expect 1 ship in 20 to be written off/destroyed before 
> >the amortisation period. Whether banks would require insurance, and  
> >the cost of insurance? I've heard of people paying 110% premiums
 
>   A very large company will probably self-insure. I don't know
> whether most banks would, but then, how do mega-corps behave?

By self-insure, I guess you mean that they would expect a 
larger percentage return from a starship investment to 
cover the fact that the ship might disappear before it has 
paid for itself?

I'm told that often large insurance companies will take out 
sub-insurance policies with other insurance companies for 
Very Large policys.Thus the risk is spread, so if they lose 
a super-tanker they don't go bust, they just get a little 
damaged, but so do all the other insurance companies 
they've spread the risk to. (But then if it doesn't lose a 
super-tanker, they've just spread the earnings around).

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Hijacking summation?

Hello,
 Re: the possible jump-fuel-station model of drop tank outcomes
(i.e., the development of a shipping system largely dispensing
with internal tankage).

 1) assumption: authorities will undertake physical inspection 
for customs or security reasons while you're refuelling and/or
having tanks installed, and/or hooking up to the "jump station"
the latter only being applicable if such a technology is possible.

 - you must kill the original occupants and remove evidence of same
to prevent the authorities from discovering you upon inspection.

 2) assumption: in addition to the above, (or not?) the original
occupants (due to spare time?) sent messages ahead or same was
done on their behalf, incidentally or intentionally.

 - as a hijacker, you're screwed. Totally, irredeemably screwed, with
your immediate options being to i) engage in firefight with arrest /
boarding party, ii) engage in firefight with station or police / navy
vessels (as though _you're_ jumping away with dry tanks, let alone
having _no_ tanks), iii) surrender, after checking the applicable
legal codes, iv) sticking pistol muzzle in your mouth (remembering to
shoot for the top, not the back, of your mouth) and saving the locals
all that hassle.

 a) Query - if such a jump fuel regime were adopted, would insurance
companies insist on such an inspection as listed #1), above? Why or
why not?

 b) Query - can a ship that can't provide proof of insurance coverage
actually get freight and passenger contracts? Legally, and at full
price, that is. What are the ramifications of shipping goods via an
uninsured carrier?


        Steven Hudson


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:36:35 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Stuff 4 Sale--Off Topic

Off topic for Traveller, but I know many of you are Star Wars fans--as I
am.

I've got a couple of Star Wars things I'm selling cheap.  If you would
like them, e-mail me in person.  I'll include shipping if in the
continental US.



X-Wing Fighter Model kit.

$10.00

Everything's included--instructions, box, decals, and all parts.  I've
never worked on this model.  All the parts are still on their connectors

and still in the plastic wrapping.  This is a brand new model ready to
be built.



A-Wing Fighter Model kit.

$10.00

Same as above.  I've got all the parts, the decals, the instructions,
the original box, and nothing has been put together.  It's brand new.



Audio Book Boxed Set--Timothy Zahn Trilogy

$20.00

This comes in the collector's box featuring a raised relief of the
Millennium Falcon on the cover.  The set features 7 cassette tapes.
Stories include Zahn's Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, The Last
Command, and his short story Hammertong.

Anthony Daniels plays C-3PO again.  Denis Lawson continues as Wedge
Antilles.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:47:46 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Game 4 Sale--Off Topic

This is off topic, but for you Star Trek fans out there, I've got a
computer game for sale at $10.00.

It's an oldie but a goodie, and it's cheap.

Star Trek:  Judgment Rites.

It's on 3.5 floppy--11 disks in all.  I've got everything including the
original box, booklet, and everything else that came with the game.

I'll throw in these extras with the deal:

Star Trek:  Judgment Rites Movie & Sound Pack
Five 3.5 floppies.

And

Star Trek: Judgment Rites Clue Book

And

I'll pay for shipping in the Continental US.

All this...$10.00.

If interested, contact me at dreamer@brokersys.com

Thanks,

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:56:02 +0100
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fuel liquification

The heat that needs to be disposed of to liquify hydrogen is trivial 
compared to the waste heat from a typical starship power plant.

Refrigeration efficiencies are very high ... typically you only need 20 
kW of power to produce 100 kW of "cold" (you also need get rid of 100 + 
20 kW of waste heat).

Typical modern steam turbines are around 70 to 80% (isentropic) 
efficiency, but still have lots of waste heat in "normal" cases as the 
exhaust steam is condensed to water before recycling.  If you include 
the waste heat lost in condensing the water, the overall cycle 
efficiency for steam turbine systems is around 30% to 40% (which is 
what power stations achieve).


Simon
Chemical Engineer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 22:31:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Archeology in Traveller

amarin@walldata.com Wrote...
> I am very interested in running a campaign that centers around archeology
> and adventure (always adventure). I must admit I'm at a loss as to how to
> go about this without creating a logistical nightmare for the players.
> They like discovery, but I am finding that too much dice rolling and
> complex computation place an inordinate drag on the game; yet I want the
> players to become closely involved with some of the investigations, to
> create a feeling of accomplishment. To balance these two, means that I
> need a handle on what's important and what I can wing. Also an
> understanding of archeology in the far future and what it might entail if
> the artifacts players uncover are more advanced (and possibly forbidden)
> than their current society's.
    This briefly popped up on the TravLang list a while back.  Thing here is
that I think you're thinking in terms of current day field archeology where you
spend a LOT of time in the dirt with tiny brushes and tweezers to dig through
hills.  Now this is going to happen in the Traveller universe but you're also
going too have a lot of high tech "ruins" and the like.  Not to mention
computer data records dating back ten thousand of years or more in the case of
the Vilani.  Imperial space has been fought over, jumped through, colonized and
generally been littered with stuff all tucked away in various places.
    FoEx, you could build an entire campaign around a bunch of scholars rooting
through the local sector AAB who run across a report of a TL12 merchant
carrying something of value that misjumped some thousands of years ago.  More
research and they find out the merchant was never found in all that time.
Putting together the pieces they rule out certain systems in the misjump range
and narrow it down to say five systems.  Hiring a ship they visit each of the
systems in turn and then discover the merchant in the asteroid belt of an out
of the way starport D, pop 5, TL 4 system.  Now they've got to recover the
merchant and get it to the nearest "safe" port, where they become Instant
Celebrities and the local authorities are going to try and sieze every last
credit of value off of their find! ;)
    AnEx, the scholar in the group is browsing through the local university
library and runs across a reference to a backup archive of administrative
records from the early settlement of the Spinwards Marches thought lost durring
one of the Frontier Wars.  After some more research the scholar locates a
couple of candidate worlds within the PC groups cruising/trading range.  So
they go looking and after sundry adventures they find it.  Now to you and me
the quadruplicate copy of two or more centuries of bureaucratic memos isn't
worth much.  But to Academics!  They'll KILL for it, and Universities WILL PAY
for access to such a resource if not try and buy it outright.  And your Scholar
PC just had their reputation MADE!

    These help?

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 22:31:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.geis.com
Subject: Re:Early Vilani Cuisine

Bruce Johnson Wrote...

> WOW! Well done!
    Thank you!

> One quibble:
>
> Not having yeasts means either: a) no beer or wine, or any alcoholic
> beverages or b) having a perfectly viable substitute, in which case you
> get leavened bread somewhere along the line, _particularly_ if you're
> brewing beer or wine in the vicinity.
    I'd agree, however having the Ancients introducing yeast to the Vilani
environment really doesn't make much sense.  My thought was some local
equivalent that, while mildly poisonous if still active when ingested, I'm
making the assumption that full brewing creates enough alcohol to kill off the
native vilani equivalent off.  The stuff floats to the top and can be skimmed
off leaving a potable, if alcoholic, drink. ;)

> It'll happen by accident, someday someone makes a batch of bread and
> doesn't cook it right away. They come back and notice it's a _lot_
> bigger. But they're broke and bake it anyway. Then they spend a LONG
> time trying to figure out how they did it because it tastes so good ;-)
    Oh yeah, but again the problem is that it doesn't make sense for the
Ancients to have brought in anything so specific as Terran Yeast.  And if you
assume my Vilani equivalent then it makes the bread poisonous.  Though I assume
that the Shugilii discover/figure out baking soda fairly early on BTW.


Peter H. Brenton Wrote...
> Grain Alcohol can be made by distilling, but is a much harder thing to
> "stumble on to" than fermentation with yeast.  It also means that all
> alcoholic beverages are "hard" liquor rather than a less potent wine or
> beer analogue.
    Good point, though with all the biochemistry the Shugilii are going to have
to figure out over time it's going to be easier for them than it was in Earth
history.  There's a couple of options here to make it fit canon after all.

> Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
> digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
> undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
> bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because
> some bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.
    Nope e. coli would have been carried in the guts of the humans brought to
Viland and would have been dropped into the local water supplies with the first
shit they took. ;) I kid you not!  But to the best of my knowledge e. coli
isn't a fermenting bacteria.

Bruce Johnson Wrote...
> Distilling from _what_ is the question. _All_ distilled beverages on
> Earth start with fermented beverages. The alcohol comes from the
> metabolic action of the yeasts just as in beer. All distillation does is
> concentrate the alcohol to higher concentrations that that available
> from fermentation alone (roughly 21% max IIRC).
    I'll take your word for it because I've NEVER had to worry about how to
distill anything. ;)

> Nope. In fact, they're more closely related to US than they are to the
> bacteria in our gut, (which makes yeasts nasty when they turn pathogenic.
> Good thing, too, else we'd get a helluva good buzz out of your average
> high-carbo pasta meal ;-)
    Thinking on this, with a strange and hostile environment to receive and
mutate the e. coli on Vland, those early humans must have had some truly AWFUL
plagues of this stuff.  It's probably settled down with 200,000+ years to adapt
before recorded history started.

> There _are_ some bacterial-based beverage fermentation processes (lambic
> beer has at least one bacterial fermentation step, although I don't know
> if that's the same step that produces the alcohol. There was a good
> article on Lambic beermaking in one of last years Scientific American
> issues), but the most reliable alcohol producing ones use yeast.
    I vaguely remember reading about some experiments with artificial enzime
based fermentation.  Thus with yeast it would fairly much be a waste of time,
for the Vilani however... ;)

> Of course, this doesn't mean that some native Vilani microorganism
> doesn't make alcohol out of vilani carbohydrates, or whatever chemical
> that Vilani based life uses.
    That was my assumption pretty much as I stated above.  Alcohol is just too
useful for humans not to get around to inventing it if the opportunity presents
it's self.

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 15:53:55 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: liquid hydrogen 

>>[starships radiating waste heat]
>Anybody got a thermodynamics handbook handy?  How much radiator surface do
>you need to
>dump that kind of waste heat? I know that real life nuclear power plants end up
>dumping lots of heat into rivers or the ocean. I just can't picture dumping heat
>through radiation. Its far too inefficient.  IIRC, steam turbines are like 10%
>efficient?  Which means that you need to dump 10 times your electric power 
>output in waste heat. 

Radiation is really the only option, though. Waste heat radiated per m2
of radiator = (6e-8 watts/m2)*T^4 for T in Kelvin; about 50 kilowatts per
m2 for 1000 K. The radiator numbers in FFS2 assume (at TL12) 90% efficiency
(not ludicrously implausible for using something sophisticated like MHD rather
than turbines; note that thermodynamically, efficiency goes way way up as
the temperature of the hot end of a heat engine increases, and a fusion 
reactor's hot end is tens of millions of kelvin) and a radiator 
temperature of 2000 K, which is not ludicrous for TL-12 material technology.
Overall they're somewhat generous assumptions, but that's necessiated by the
fact that Traveller power production and consumption tends to be unrealistically
high; radiator requirements have to be tweaked to make giant battleships
possible, but they're not tweaked completely out of shape.

>Actually, I think they use the LHyd as the heat sink.  Soak the waste heat into
>the
>liquid hydrogen, then shoot it out the back of your HEPlaR drive.  Still doesn't
>explain how you get it that cold in the first place... 
>I think that puts thruster;
>plates at a bit of a disadvantage, they don't have a handy means of ejecting
>waste heat.

This won't work for very long, both because the heat capacity of hydrogen
is low and for more subtle thermodynamic reasons (you don't want your heat
sink to be running at too high a temperature.) It also begs the question
of what a ship does when it wants to run its power plant but not its
HEPlaR. Radiators are much more practical (and pretty much a necessity.)
(After all, that's how the space shuttle keeps cool - big radiators in the
cargo bay. If they can't get the bay doors open they have to return almost
immediately to Earth. The energies and temperatures involved are much lower,
but that's TL-7 for you...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:40:24 +0100
From: inhouse@idecnet.com (inhoJi)
Subject: FAQs

Where could I get FAQs for Traveller's rules, not the FAQs for this mailing
list?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:47:58 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Steel 

At 02:07 pm 5/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I've seen some interesting homebrewed AK47's cranked out by village 
>blacksmiths in my time, so don't confuse primitive conditions with 
>technological impossibilities.  A good solid reworked high tech copy
of 

	I vaguely recall reading somewhere about Afghani blacksmiths doing
just that with captured Russian weapons. But since they didn't really
know exactly how the thing worked and what was important, they
supposedly made *exact* copies--down to serial number, nicks and
dings, and everything.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 17:56:23 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Web Help

OK, folks, my web site is still down, and I'm looking for help. Does
anybody know of a good, free/shareware web posting program. By that I
mean a program which will take my local copy of the site and mirror
it to a specified ftp site, including recursing subdirectories, etc,
and smart enough to only upload changed files once the site has been
initially published.

Neither Microsoft's FrontPage nor Web Publishing Wizard will work for
what I want. The Web Publishing Wizard absolutely will not install on
my machine, for reasons I don't understand: no error messages,
crashes, or anything--the decompressing and file installation dialogs
appear normally and run to completion, but the program is not there
when setup is done. And FrontPage doesn't allow "nested" subwebs.
Since my personal home page is set up as a subweb of my ISP's
website, which is standard, I cannot use FrontPage to publish my Trav
site as a separate web--I'd have to make it part of my personal site,
which means the automatic navigation bars, custom theme, etc. would
get all screwed up.

I'm desperately trying to avoid uploading 12 megabytes of files
manually, and then trying to keep mental track of which ones I've
changed since the last update and trying to find and manually upload
those one at a time as well.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 18:52:04 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

On 05/08/98 at 02:55 AM,  Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu> said:

>I can see the value of doing such research, but I think that
>ultimately, the simplified approach in the Traveller rules are best.
>Since, if we were to be really honest, the idea of interstellar
>economies, with new planets and resources and goods being continually
>discovered and exploited, the whole idea of money is jeopardized.

Steve, I understand where you are coming from, but I don't quite agree.
Inside a stable Imperium a stable currency is *very* likely to exist. In
fact, inside any stable economy there is likely to be a currency of
exchange, not the same currency or with the same exchange rate, of course.

>What standard is there to base currency on?  Lanthanum?  

No more than the US or European economies are based on gold.  The Imperial
Credit would be based on the "strength and stability of the Imperium", and
ultimately on the *faith* of the imperial citizen that the credit has
value.  Why does the Canadian or US dollar have "value"? It's not because
of the gold in our vaults..it's *mostly* because the Canadian and US's
econonies are strong and robust, and maybe because of some political
reasons, but let's not get into *that* argument.  ;-> The point is US
citizens have faith that our currency will be accepted in exchange for
items of value..and so do Canadians.  A Canadian dollar won't buy much in
Kansas...but it isn't valueless there either, because we US citizens also
have faith that Canada will exchange that Cn$ for a US$.  You'll just have
to go through a bank to exchange it.

>And what good is a currency like an Imperial Credit outside the
>Imperium?  

Near the Imperial border the ImpCr is likely to be nearly as valuable as
within the Imperium because the ImpCr can be exchanged for items of value
and make its way back into the Imperium.  Aren't US dollars valuable in
Canada and Mexico...particularly near the border?  As you move away from
the Imperium's border and/or into strong rival empires the value of the
ImpCr is either going to be devalued significantly and, maybe, exchanged at
some fixed rate set by local authorities.  US dollars still have value in
France.  Sweden or Japan, but must generally be traded for local currency
before they can be exchanged for items of value...they *still* have value
just aren't as readily exchangeable, usually.

>All this makes the viability of markets and currencies very
>questionable. 

No, no!  It makes markets and currencies an *interesting* topic.  It also
makes for some nice adventure hooks. ;->

IMTU, there is no huge Imperium, read US, (Anders don't have an attack, but
the Imperium's economic influence would be similar to the US's effect here
on earth) to dominate markets and currencies.  Currencies of the various
powers (ie Zeristu Empire, Confederation of Argent Systems, Montrose
Collective, Muan Gwi) are exchangeable at rates fixed either by government
or private banking sources.  As you travel away from the borders of the
issuing authority its currency's value diminishes. Travellers often carry
their wealth in tangible forms (gems are common), as bank drafts or as
"Banking Letters of Credit."

Commercial Banks make private arrangements with their counterparts in other
systems forming "banking partnerships" to allow holders of "letters of
credit" to automatically open accounts with local credit available in the
amount of the letter.  The letters are then returned to the issuing bank
where accounts between the banks are balanced and currencies and other
items of value are exchanged to maintain agreed balances.  They also issue
"authorized bank drafts" that *guarantee* that one currency will be
exchangeable for local currency at any of their banking partners.  There,
of course, are fees involved in doing this, and risks of forgery,
counterfeiting and fraud, but it's a system that keeps the gears of
commerce greased.  It also gives some some nice adventure hooks.  ;->

Example:  Sir Jason is travelling to Muan Gwi from Argent.  He converts
20,000 Cr into gems, puts 20,000 into an authorized bank draft drawn on the
Bank of Argent, puts another 60,000 into a Letter of Credit from the Bank
of Argent to the Bank of Muan Gwi, and puts 5,000 cr into his pocket.  It
costs him 600 Cr to "insure" the letter of credit, and 300 Cr to acquire
the bank draft.  In route from Argent to Muan Gwi, Sir Jason can buy
essentials with his "pocket credits" while inside the CSA, but once he
leaves it he will have to exchange them for local currency, cash his bank
draft with a banking partner of the Bank of Argent, or sell some gems. 
When he arrives on Muan Gwi he can present his Letter of Credit to the Bank
of Muan Gwi where a 59,400 Muan Gwi credit account will be opened for
him..yes the local back will charge him a fee for the conversion and cost
of returning the letter to Argent.  If Sir Jason later decides to travel to
the Montrose Collective, he may want to buy a Letter of Credit with his
Muan Gwi credits drawable on the Central Bank of Montrose and/or get a bank
draft written on the Bank of Muan Gwi...and so on.

There are all kinds of "hooks" built into Letters of Credit, bank drafts,
and other financial instruments for that matter:  just how "negotiable"
these letter of credit and bank drafts are depends on how they are written
(can they be stolen and presented for payment by the theives..or not); how
easy are they to counterfeit; how are forgery's "prevented" (ha! ha!); how
do the exchanged letters get back the issuing banks (armed couriers?); how
does exchanged currency get back to the bank that issued the bank drafts
(armed guards?); dealing with currency brokers, government agents, and
bankers wanting a bribe to "expedite" a conversion and/or give a good rate
on a transaction; and who knows what else.

Personally, this is a topic well worth "getting into!"


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #476
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, May 11 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 477



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Steel 
Re: Steel 
Relative Prices
Re: Boston
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Price of a Starship
Re: Returns of investment
Re: Traveller Economics Stuff
Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler
Re: Boston 
Re: Relative Prices
Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:01:55 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Steel 

At 10:58 AM 10/05/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  The "decent metal" is a big caveat. Given the empirical knowledge of
>iron forging technology at the time, including the very poor understanding
>(and availability) of quality smelted output, the result is more likely to
>be a very expensive and inefficient pipe-bomb rather than a weapon that
>you'd want to use yourself. This assumes Roman conditions, and also that
>I've got the analysis right (it's been quite a while since I studied this
>sort of stuff).

By using mild black powder loads and wire-wrapping the barrel you should be
able to get a weapon that is no less safe than the big medieval arbalests
which had metal prods that were wrapped in leather and parchment to contain
the fragments _when_ they shattered. However IIRC Roman wire drawing
technology was not very advanced. It wasn't until the late middle ages that
waterwheel powered wire drawing was invented. Before that wire was mostly
hammered out.

>  I'll leave it to the experts, but cleaning out "smokeless" powder residue
>is bad enough, and the gas wash is not going to be enough to operate the
>recoil mechanism, I suspect, in addition to erosion problems (?) due to
>metallurgical deficiencies. OC, even a semi-auto _rifle_ is going to be
>really and truly awesome to have. OTOH, the cost of the hand-made brass
>cartridges made result in your carrying some lower tech weapons for easy
>targets.

The gas could be, because you'd just use a weaker recoil spring. Fouling of
the gas cylinder and ports would be a real problem with black powder,
though. However a black powder charged straight blow-back SMG (like a sten
gun, or a PPsH-41) would work fine, and be really easy to make, especially
as rifling is an optional extra at typical SMG ranges.

>  I still think that bronze cannon (to break up formations or gates) would
>be the appropriate technology for early gunpowder applications. BTW, does
>anyone know what the limitations would be on using (cast?) bronze for
>shoulder-arms, besides cost?

AFAIK bluderbusses and pistols are about it, because after that the barrel
needs to be too thick to be practical.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:52:07 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Steel 

At 02:07 PM 10/05/98 -0400, Keven wrote:

>Nugget:  About 20 years before, somebody carrying a TL12 copy of an AK47 got 
>whacked on your TL4 backwater planet.  The local blacksmith took it apart to 
>figure out how it worked.  Now there are a few thousand clones laying
around...

You'd need to make that TL2. TL4 is about WWI, so there'd be more than a
few thousand lying around.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:40:16 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Relative Prices

At 08:17 PM 09/05/98 -0700, J-man wrote:
>> Jory Earl wrote:
>> > I'd like to know, where in that area or New Hampshire, can cheap homes
be 
>> > bought?
>> 
>> You can get cheap, but  not cheap & safe....
>
>
>Yeah, I found out the prices even in New Hampshire are ridiculous.  I'm
>back to renting..SIGH.Even the rents are insane.  I saw a few places for
>450-550 range, but I can't believe HUMANS live in such dumps.  They were
>buildings that should be condemned.

This disscussion reminds me of something I could use some help with. IMTU
the prices of different goods on Hi pop worlds and the Imperium at large
are like those of the USA and other countries that produce (or can produce)
most of the products they consume, and lower pop worlds, backwaters, etc
are like here (New Zealand) in that anything imported and often anything in
demand overseas is fairly expensive compared to local non-export products.

However to illustrate this I need some concrete examples, so I can give
real world comparisons for my players.

Some example prices from NZ (in $NZ, $NZ 1.00 is about $US 0.55, thanks to
the Asian economy's karma rebounding):

1 Litre of milk                 $2.60 - $2.80
1 loaf of bread (600g - 700g)   $1.50 - $2.40
500g of mincemeat               $2.50 - $4.00
500g of beef fillet steak       $10.00

An average house in Palmerston North (a 'university town', pop. 70,000),
probably with 3 bedrooms, kitchen/dining room & lounge.     $120,000

The same in Auckland (our largest city, pop. 1,000,000+)    $300,000

The rent on the average house in Palmerston North           $180 - $200 per
week

A bolt-action .308 rifle, new   $1,200
A bolt-action .308 rifle, used  $1,200
A .22LR semi-auto, new          $550
A good 2-barreled 12Ga shotgun  $2,000

A small 4-door car, new         $22,000
A small 4-door car, used import $4,000+

A computer game (Hexen II, etc) $100
A new pentium, with bundled software, printer, etc    $3,000 upwards
A good colour TV                $1,000
A 3-head non-stereo video player $600

A fantasy or Sci-fi paperback   $16 - $18
TSR's Alternity RPG             $80 (rrp $US 29.95)
A T4 supplement                 about $40

An unemployed's weekly Income Support payment 
(under 25's get about $30 less) $150 - $170 per week after tax

The average income              about $33,000 per year, before tax
                                about $500 per week after tax

If somebody could give a similar sort of list of ballpark US prices I'd be
grateful.

Thanks,

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:40:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Boston

J-Man wrote:

> Wouldn't some character types wash out of service because they couldn't handle the
> strain of such regimented living?

Thats the re-enlistment roll.

>  Would academy bound characters have to drop out
> before finishing due to lack of funds?

 Academy's are free. In fact, at the US Naval Academy, you get paid to go there.
Back in 87 it was about $6,000/year.

I've always figured that all traveller education is free.  Essentially, you forego
the opportunity to make any money and that balances it out.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:48:41 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

I understand your points, Eris.  But I think comparisons to earth's economy
ultimately fail.  Earth resources are finite.  The galaxy's are
effectively infinite.

Also, I wasn't really speaking about a stable economy in a stable Imperium.
Any stable governement would probably have a stable economy (else it
would fail as a government).  Its in the area of transactions between
governments and non-imperium systems that economy parallels break down.

It seems to me that many if not most transaction are going to ultimately

be barter.  And there would probably be little probability of the same
barter values existing for different systems.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:59:34 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> However to illustrate this I need some concrete examples, so I can give
> real world comparisons for my players.
>
> Some example prices from NZ (in $NZ, $NZ 1.00 is about $US 0.55, thanks to
> the Asian economy's karma rebounding):
>
> 1 Litre of milk                 $2.60 - $2.80

$0.75-$1.00

> 1 loaf of bread (600g - 700g)   $1.50 - $2.40

$1.00

> 500g of mincemeat               $2.50 - $4.00

I don't know what mincemeat is.

> 500g of beef fillet steak       $10.00

$5.00

> An average house in Palmerston North (a 'university town', pop. 70,000),
> probably with 3 bedrooms, kitchen/dining room & lounge.     $120,000
>
> The same in Auckland (our largest city, pop. 1,000,000+)    $300,000

> The rent on the average house in Palmerston North           $180 - $200 per
> week

All these would probably about the same.

> A bolt-action .308 rifle, new   $1,200

Been a while since I was at the gun store, but I'd guestimate about $800-$1000.

> A bolt-action .308 rifle, used  $1,200

$400-$600

> A .22LR semi-auto, new          $550

$250-$400

> A good 2-barreled 12Ga shotgun  $2,000

$800

> A small 4-door car, new         $22,000
> A small 4-door car, used import $4,000+

About the same.

> A computer game (Hexen II, etc) $100

$50

> A new pentium, with bundled software, printer, etc    $3,000 upwards

Without monitor, $1,000-$1,400.  With monitor: $1,200-$1,600.

> A good colour TV                $1,000

$400-800

> A 3-head non-stereo video player $600

$300-$400 (although, 2 or 4 heads is standard)

> A fantasy or Sci-fi paperback   $16 - $18

$5.00-6.00

> TSR's Alternity RPG             $80 (rrp $US 29.95)

> A T4 supplement                 about $40

$20.00

> An unemployed's weekly Income Support payment
> (under 25's get about $30 less) $150 - $170 per week after tax

Sorry, no idea.  At least not yet anyway.

> The average income              about $33,000 per year, before tax
>                                 about $500 per week after tax

I think average US income is actually somewhat lower,
around $28,000/year or so.  The poverty line is somewhere around
$20,000 for a family of 4.

Just FYI:
Tuition/year at private second-tier professional school: $20,000.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:00:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Price of a Starship

Steve Rennell wrote:

> Essentially, decide what you want out of your Universe, and
> you can justify it if you need to.

That has always been true.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 19:02:48 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Returns of investment

On 05/08/98 at 10:48 AM,  "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk> said:

>This assumes a very stable economy, but fits pretty well with the CT era
>(maybe not in the Marches, though). A 4% REAL return on investment is not
>considered bad (not even in the real world). Interest is usually comprised
>of real return, risk premium and compensation for inflation. If the Credit
>is untouched by inflation, then only the risk premium remains to be
>subtracted from the four percent to arrive at the real return.

>Maybe the Imperium has created a ship's loan guarantee foundation to keep
>investors risk free. Thus, the Imperium would bear all the risk, but this
>might be a good investment overall, as this keeps starship loans down and
>then allows for more interstellar traffic.

Interesting concept!  If the Imperium bears the risk on starship loans,
then the Imperium's *enforcement* agencies will take the lead in seeing
that those loans are paid off. Loan jumpers, beware! it's agents of ImpeMAE
and its enforcers, the Imperial Navy on your case not just the Bank of
Regina!

>Such a foundation would then remove the risk element from the return,
>making the 4% the real return of investment.

Investors in England build the Empire on instruments with 1% real returns.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 20:18:22 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics Stuff

On 05/09/98 at 01:47 AM,  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> said:

>What needs to happen is us economics gearheads need to figure out how it
>works in detail, then we need to build a simplified but still working
>model that is usable and enjoyable for non-economics gearheads.

Yes, I agree with you. Just, please, don't forget some of us don't play our
games inside a stable Imperium, so general rules and options need to be
available.

>The Imperial Credit, by the way, is worth exactly what people think they
>can buy with it - nothing more, nothing less (it's a fiduciary currency).
>I can imagine an interstellar currency based on lumps of some useful metal
>(eg lanthanum, which is used for jump grids), but the Imperial Credit
>doesnt have such a base.

Humm, I don't really see an interstellar currency based on any sort of
specie. Isn't that the right term? What could be *that* rare? ;->  "Full
trust and credit", that's the trick.

<snip>

>Buying a starship is well beyond the resources of a starting starship-free
>party. Even using every undocumented trick in the book (MCr40 stripped-down >ship built with 20% bulk-construction discount, with another 40% discount for >being built TL11 credits in a TL15 Imperium with a final 40% discount for being >40 years old), you still get a deposit in the megacredit range.

I discount old ships a good bit more than 1% per year, but you are right
about normal downpayments being beyond the means of most adventuring
groups. If you want to get the dmpymts down to reasonable levels then the
cost of ships (new or used) is going to have to be a lot lower...and that
affects other parts of the game.

>Secondly, it isnt easy to make ships disappear, unless you assume that a
>starship creates no paperwork.

...if you *stay* inside the Imperium (or registering empire), yes it's hard
to make a ship disappear, but if you get the ship outside local authorities
might not be all that interested in where the ship came from...originally.

>Have someone approach the party with an option of half a dozen
>only-one-owner TL11 grav tanks, and a red hot tip on a planetary
>government 30 parsecs away that might just be in the market for them ...
>he'll come along for the ride, and assist with the paperwork ...

I'm afraid my PBEM group would reject that offer as inherently too risky,
unless there was a GM push forcing them to "get out of Dodge fast"...what
do you say Bruce, Craig, James, JD, Suz, or Tim? How would you react to
that "hot tip?"

>>Yes, and Yes.  Ian Whitchurch's "Grand Unified TRaveller Trade Theory"

>*gulp* does this mean I have to finish GUTTT with currency valuation
>effects ?

We *have* been waiting for you to post the rest of GUTTT a looong time,
Ian. ;->

>>There is a great emphasis on Canon here and trying to make the theoretical
>>realities of traveller fit with the published facts.  

Not by ME! ;-> Guy's trade was *always* a kludge in Traveller, trying to
make the published rules on this stuff work is a kin to making Ptolomy's
dance of the spheres work...you might be able to do it, but it would be a
whole lot of effort to make something wrong act like it was right.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 20:55:54 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler

On 05/08/98 at 11:24 AM,  amarin@walldata.com said:

>I am very interested in running a campaign that centers around archeology
>and adventure (always adventure). 

Hey, good topic!  I've got an archaeologist character in my PBEM that just
about totally ignores any plot line that doesn't lead directly to a dig,
museum, or tour. So far his general reaction to everything else is "What's
to eat?"  Isn't that right James? ;->

>I must admit I'm at a loss as to how to go about this without creating a >logistical nightmare for the players. They like discovery, but I am finding that >too much dice rolling and complex computation place an inordinate drag on the >game; yet I want the players to become closely involved with some of the >investigations, to create a feeling of accomplishment. To balance these two, >means that I need a handle on what's important and what I can wing. 

Well, for one thing *don't* wing the location or contents of any sites your
PC's might discover. You need to plan out the sites, what they contain and
how all the pieces fit together. Do it in detail before the PC's get
anywhere near that part of the adventure. Plan out how the business of
archaeology works IYTU: if finders own what they find and if they can sell
artifacts/sites/data, and if they can who they can sell it to; are licences
required, from who, for what; what the restrictions local governments can
have and where do local authority and Imperial authority cross lines; and,
perhaps most of all, what kind of money are we talking about...ranges from
small amounts to break the bank fortunes...for finds. 

I put my party in a position to discover what could have been a major find
recently, but they were on a planet where the government owned all sites
"for the common benefit of the citizens" and the best they could hope for
was a minor finder's fee. OTOH, if a major Exploration Company had made the
find, they could have maneuved the government into giving them the contract
for the dig..big bucks. So, my smart archaeologist sold the site's location
to an Exploration Company for money down and a share of any eventual
contract between the company and the government. On the next planet where
they go exploring the rules *will* be different, and they *better* find out
what the rules are before they go exploring or they will be in big trouble.
;->

You know, I didn't really "wing" much of that encounter except for the
personal interactions between PC's and NPC's, but I didn't roll much
either.

>Also an understanding of archeology in the far future and what it might entail if
>the artifacts players uncover are more advanced (and possibly forbidden)
>than their current society's.

Ah, yes! I'm not real likely to present my players with *that* kind of
site, but if I did it would be a *major* plot point, the culmination of the
adventure and, perhaps, the beginning of the next phase. What I'm more
likely to do is present them with a series of sites where clues from one
lead to another and another, all moving toward some major discovery. Along
the way I'd be sure to plug in dead-ends, false trails, misleading clues,
and if they do make it to the "grail" the discovery isn't likely to be
universe shattering technology, but more likely a piece of data that
refutes or confirms some archaeological/historical theory, or a piece of
technology that is broken, of unknown origin, unknown function, and unknown
value and discovering just what they found will occupy the next phase of
the adventure. Or if somebody else discovers they found it, hanging on to
it until they find out what it does, or they can unload it. ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:13:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Boston 

> J-Man wrote:
> 
> > Wouldn't some character types wash out of service because they couldn't handle the
> > strain of such regimented living?
> 
> Thats the re-enlistment roll.

That's the success roll.

> >  Would academy bound characters have to drop out
> > before finishing due to lack of funds?
> 
>  Academy's are free. In fact, at the US Naval Academy, you get paid to go there.

Miltary academies in the States are funded under the Department of Defense, so 
the *taxpayers* pay for it.

> I've always figured that all traveller education is free.  Essentially, you forego
> the opportunity to make any money and that balances it out.

I've always assumed that since PC's are reputed to be the cream of the crop, 
their admission rolls meant that they won scholarships of some sort or other.  
Student loans picked up the rest of the slack, and the skills picked up in 4 
years at college were picked up at summer jobs & such.  Also, I assumed they 
paid off their student loans during their active careers.

Keven
- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance



- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:32:50 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 08:59 PM 10/05/98 -0400, Bloo wrote:

>> 500g of mincemeat               $2.50 - $4.00
>
>I don't know what mincemeat is.

Ground up meat, usually beef. It's not as fine as the meat in a sausage and
is used in pies, stews, meatballs, etc.

>Just FYI:
>Tuition/year at private second-tier professional school: $20,000.

What is a second-tier school? Or what age are its students?

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 98 21:26:23 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: ARCHEOLOGY in Traveler

On 05/08/98 at 03:52 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:

>>First of all let me apologize for all the garbage that occurs after our mail
>>on your list.

>I didn't get any garbage.

	I didn't either, what garbage was he talking about? 

>Here's my outline for running an archaeological campaign;

Very nice job!  I *must* resist saying too much as most of the players in
my Akus Moby PBEM are on the list, but I've got to comment.  ;->

>First, I would establish some sketchy background information of several of
>the local (to the subsector) pre-Imperial cultures.  These will include
>(in the Spinward Marches for example) Darrian Colonies, Ziru Sirka failed
>colonies, relics of many non-starfarers of human and humanoid races, and,
>of course, The Ancients; probably I'd roll 2d12 for each habitable planet
>and place relics there on a roll of 1-2, then use a similar roll or set of
>rolls to essentially create a UPP for each culture.  Many would predate
>even the Ancients, some may be relics of a society still existant on the
>planet.

Yikes!  That's too many sites for Ancients.  I wouldn't roll for that
anyway, Ancients sites are definite *placement* material.

>These are a smokescreen.  My second step would be to create a spacefaring
>culture which once spread across many planets in the area, but left just a
>few clues to their existence.  

I set my game several thousand years beyond TNE.  So far beyond that the
Imperium, Virus", the "Empress Wave" the "Dark Curtain", the Imperium and
even Terra are the stuff of shadowy myth and legend that might/might not
have any basis in what really happened those thousands of years ago. The
sites the PC's find are going to be from the "Old Imperium"...as far as
they know, but they could be from a failed successor state, a predecessor
state, the real Ancients, or something else.  Figuring out what's what and
when it all fits together is the real goal of archaeology, not grave
robbing goodies.

>The idea is to have a problem with clues that need to be put together;
Perhaps a >star map on a storage media (a durable one), but the players
need to find an >example of the reader to reverse engineer, and they must
recognize the reader >when they see it.

Shhh! Don't give it away. ;->

>This might lead the players to other clues...and so on.  Meanwhile there
>would be a band of competing archaeologists or perhaps site poachers who
>are trafficing in contraband artifacts (which happen to be fashionable on
>Vland these days), or maybe a group who say they are decended from race
>xyz whose site we are desecrating, or perhaps all of the above at
>different times.

Add, government agents and religious fanatics. 

>Now for what Ithink you questionis related to;  When actually looking for
>artifacts there are two possible methodologies;

>1). personally exploring the site and picking up random items,
>photographing ruins, etc.  Takes a day or two.

>There is very little chance of new discovery (barring a recent earthquake
>or other plot device) but information can be collected, etc.

Information is the key here.

>2). Running a full blown "Dig" complete with gravitic earthmoving, large
>crews of Grad Students, etc.  Takes months or even years.

Which I don't want to bog the PC's down with...even Arvitis the
Archaeologist.

>This is the "real" method of archaeology.  Cities are revealed, remains,
>artifacts and other detrious are examined, tagged, stored, and information
>and conclusions are published.

Yep, what we're talking about comes closer to "grave robbing" than real
archaeology.

One last idea, don't overlook the exploration of museums and religious
sites.  There's no telling what might be sitting there that was mis-labeled
or mis-understood.

Once upon a time some clerk was browsing through the back of the British
Museum when he came across a stone box that had been dug up from just
outside the ruins of the Library of Alexandria.  This box had been sitting
in the Museum for 50 years with no idea as to it's original
function...until that day when the clerk noticed the resemblance between
the stone box and the metal one he had used a couple hours earlier when he
bought the latest Kipling "penny-dredfull" at the train station.  The stone
box was an example of the first known vending machine, vending candles for
use inside the Library.  <---Ok, is this true or just an "urban-myth?"  I
don't know, but it is sure one heck of a story.  ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 23:02:43 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

	I want to reply to this with some facts but I need to do a little
research.  The first thing I need to know is where you got this formula
and what it is for, exactly.  I got my old fluid mechanics book out and
found formulas for drag on various shaped bodies but didn't see this one.
None of the numbers they got in the book seemed very high.

>Also, check out what the forces exerted by wind are. Even a "measly" 30
>mph exerts *tremendous* pressures over large areas. Here's the formulas:
>
>P = 0.5 D V^2 cos^2 A,
>
>P = Pressure, N/m^2 (multiply by 0.000146 for psi)
>
>D = Density, kg/m^3 (=1.225 for sea-level air on Earth)
>
>V = Velocity, m/s (multiply by 2.24 for miles per hour)
>
>A = Angle from perpendicular
>
>So at 20 km/h, lets see what we get.
>
>20 km/h = 5.6 m/s.
>
>That gives 18.9 N/m^2 for the wind blowing perpendicular to the
>surface. Figure the cross sectional area of the various parts of the
>ship (don't forget to figure them from different directions) and start
>figure what winds from various directions will do

18.9 N/M^2 = 18.9 Pascal which is about .00274 psi which is very low.
A plate 20 feet by 100 feet will experience a total force of 789 lbs.
If this plate is 1/2" thick steel it will weigh 40,500 lbs for a net
acceleration of .02 g.  Most ships could handle this...  A ship will
probably be quite a bit heavier because it's 3-D not a sheet.  Someone
check my numbers, but the order of magnitude looks right.  The torque
on this sheet if the force is concentrated at one end is still not
going to be that bad.  I'd fly this sheet if it had reasonable
thrusters on it...

>And remember that by the very fact that you are trying to keep your
>airspeed low, you *can't* avoid bad weather which is approaching faster
>than you can run away.
>
>You may not be *able* to avoid turbulence or bad weather. After all,
>since your ship isn't *designed* to operate in atmosphere, it won't be
>equipped with the sensors need to spot things like clear air
>turbulence. Which can hit you with 50-100 mph winds.

I've driven a full-sized full-length van (the kind that seats 15) at
80 mph in high cross-winds (say 30 mph) which were gusting and quite
unpredictable.  I had no problem staying on the ground and in my lane,
though I did have to correct for the gusts.

Also, keep in mind my assumptions:

1.  The ship has a generous thrust to weight ratio (significantly over
1 G).  If it doesn't, then you could have problems.

2.  The ship has maneuvering thrusters capable of nontrivial thrust
(ie that can roll the ship and rotate it around various axii) and
which are in balanced pairs.

3.  The ship is not an open frame, dispersed structure but is some
relatively compact shape like a sphere or a rectuangular solid or
a tight cluster of these.  This means more like a space shuttle or
free trader type body as opposed to a bunch of pods connected by
struts with things sticking out all over the place.

These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
but not strong enough to survive very high winds.

Also, there is some question about the use of the term "streamlined."
Aircraft are not just streamlined (able to cut through the air
efficiently) but are designed to generate lift.  Supersonic and
subsonic streamlining are quite different so a vehicle optimized
for one is not so good for the other.  A brick, on the other hand,
can generate lift... it will just generate so much drag as to
be unflyable and will not be easy to control at the speeds it would
have to go to generate lift.  At low speeds it will be easy to
control but generate no lift...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #477
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 11 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 478



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Web Help
Re: Steel 
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Berthing costs
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #474
Re: Traveller economics
Re: Traveller economic stuff
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Profitable Starships
Re: Traveller Economic Stuff
Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:37:13 -0700
From: J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Web Help

Well David, I have the perfect answer to your web needs, and it's FREE,
but I can't email it to you (exceeds 2megs).

I think you can find this file at www.aracnoid.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 22:42:25 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Steel 

>From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
>Subject: Re: Steel 
>
>>   The "decent metal" is a big caveat. Given the empirical knowledge of
>> iron forging technology at the time, including the very poor understanding
>> (and availability) of quality smelted output, the result is more likely to
...
>Ever see a real live AK close up?  Those puppies are *TOUGH*.  You can drop 
>'em in a swamp, run over 'em with a *TANK* fer chrissakes, and they *STILL* 
>work.  And they come apart pretty easy for cleaning.  A bit of wood alcohol 
>for solvent is good enough to clean 'em, & you can lube them with just about 
>anything that's greasy in a pinch.  It's all in the design when you get down 
>to it.

  Attribute whatever failings you might wish to a Soviet foundry, but their
output is going to be vastly superior in quality and _reliably so_ compared
to any pre-Renaissance metalworker. So a TL 4 artisan might be able to do
so, or maybe not. What the Romans had to work with would have been useless
for series production. 

...
>> anyone know what the limitations would be on using (cast?) bronze for
>> shoulder-arms, besides cost?
>
>Weight.  To get a strong enough barrel uxing bronze, you'll have to cast it
pretty thick.  It'd be a bitch to lug around all month.  Say, on the order
of 10 to 12 pounds endweight of the weapon.  Not something you can run fast
with.

  IIRC, iron cannon for shipboard use in the age of sail were substantially
_heavier_, but cheaper. So it presumably isn't weight.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 00:26:31 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Sun, 10 May 1998 12:12:32 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
> 1) assumption: authorities will undertake physical inspection
>for customs or security reasons while you're refuelling and/or
>having tanks installed, and/or hooking up to the "jump station"
>the latter only being applicable if such a technology is possible.

> - you must kill the original occupants and remove evidence of same
>to prevent the authorities from discovering you upon inspection.

Well, no.  In addition to the assumption above, you have to assume
that the  inspections are so detailed as to make hiding the
crew more risky than someone willing to engage in such a
crime is willing to accept.  You also have to assume that
you can't simply threat over the head of the crew and get
them too cooperate.

> 2) assumption: in addition to the above, (or not?) the original
>occupants (due to spare time?) sent messages ahead or same was
>done on their behalf, incidentally or intentionally.

I'm not sure how this is done.  The hijacking would presumably
be done in jump space.  And if you are talking about message
sent to say "we are comming"  The way messages are carried
is by ship.

> a) Query - if such a jump fuel regime were adopted, would insurance
>companies insist on such an inspection as listed #1), above? Why or
>why not?

Stopping ship and searching it every time it arrives at every system
requires inspectors, ships to protect them, and delays for all
shipping.  If the cost of these exceeds the rate highjackings
then a rival company will simply offer insurance that, while
it is more expensive, in the long run saves money by not requiring
the inspections.

> b) Query - can a ship that can't provide proof of insurance coverage
>actually get freight and passenger contracts?

Why, if the captain doesn't think the likelyhood of his ship being
lost isn't worth the insurance there is no reason for a shipper
to require it.  If they feel their cargo need insurance, they can
insure it themselves.

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 04:21:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 08:59 PM 10/05/98 -0400, Bloo wrote:
>
> >> 500g of mincemeat               $2.50 - $4.00
> >
> >I don't know what mincemeat is.
>
> Ground up meat, usually beef. It's not as fine as the meat in a sausage and
> is used in pies, stews, meatballs, etc.

Ah, that would be what we call "ground beef."  $1.50 - $2.00

> >Just FYI:
> >Tuition/year at private second-tier professional school: $20,000.
>
> What is a second-tier school? Or what age are its students?

Not top-10, but right up there.  Highly selective but not the most selective.
Harvard, Yale, etc. are the top tier.

Nothing to do with age other than it is post-graduate education, so entering
age
tends to be around 22-24.  A four-year Bachelor's Degree is required for
such professional schools (law, business, medicine, etc).

Bloo
(just finished law school)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 98 03:09:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

The US is a *big* place, so prices are going to vary, but here are fair
estimates for prices in the southeastern US taken from personal experience
and newspaper ads this weekend.

On 05/11/98 at 11:40 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>1 Litre of milk                 $2.60 - $2.80

 1 quart of milk    $1.20
 1/2 gallon         $1.80
 1 gallon           $2.70

>1 loaf of bread (600g - 700g)   $1.50 - $2.40

1 loaf of bread     $1.30 fresh, $0.70 day old...I buy day old

>500g of mincemeat               $2.50 - $4.00

1 pound of stew meat $1.99 <-- small chunks of beef suitable for stews and
soups

1 pound of ground beef  $1.19

>500g of beef fillet steak       $10.00

1 pound of boneless Chuck steak $1.59 <--- tastes just as good and cheaper 
1 pound of boneless Top Sirloin   $2.49
1 pound of Fillet Migion $4.49

Chicken is much cheaper than beef, pork is about the same and
mutton/lamb is more expensive.

12 eggs         $0.89

1 pound of coffee $3.49

2 liter of Pop national brand (Coke/Pepsi) $1.19 (catch it on sale for
under a dollar)

6 pack of beer  $6.99

1 pound of frozen vegetables     $1.00
canned vegetables are cheaper  3-14oz cans for a dollar 

fresh fruits and vegetables are cheap, in season, down here

4 Kiwi for a dollar  <--- that's for you down-under folks ;->

>An average house in Palmerston North (a 'university town', pop. 70,000),
>probably with 3 bedrooms, kitchen/dining room & lounge.     $120,000

Brick 3BR/2BA, 1441 sq ft, inground pool, washer/dryer/refrig/freezer,
carpeted throughout $72,000

In general, 60 to 120 thousand depending on various factors.

>The same in Auckland (our largest city, pop. 1,000,000+)    $300,000

In some big cities prices can get outlandishly high.  OTOH, if this house
was on the beach it would be 300 to 500 k, down here.

>The rent on the average house in Palmerston North           $180 - $200
>per week

On a house, $500 to $700 per month ($125 to $175 per week)

Apartments are somewhat less expensive, $300 to $600 per month.

>A bolt-action .308 rifle, new   $1,200

It's been a *long* time since I priced a rifle, but I'd guess $800 for
quality.

>A bolt-action .308 rifle, used  $1,200

We don't sell 'em once we buy 'em.  Ain't you heard about us good old
southern boys down h'year.  ;-> Oh, I'd guess half whatever new is.

>A .22LR semi-auto, new          $550

That's high, say about $250 to $400.

>A good 2-barreled 12Ga shotgun  $2,000

Geeze!  I should bring my shotguns down there!  I inherited them, so I
really don't know what the price would be new, but *way* less than that for
a shotgun..even a semi-automatic.

>A small 4-door car, new         $22,000

How small?  A Dodge Neon runs about $12,000, a Chevy Malibu is around
$14,000.

>A small 4-door car, used import $4,000+

Depending on age/condition could be as cheap as 1 thousand up to 7 or 8
thousand.

>A computer game (Hexen II, etc) $100

Ranges from $20 to $80 with most new games in the $50 range.

>A new pentium, with bundled software, printer, etc    $3,000 upwards 

Depends on brand/quality, but $3,000 would buy you a top end PC.

Here's an example:  Pentium 200, 32 meg Ram, 8 gig HD, 24x CD,
sound/video/keyboard/etc, 15" monitor, and color inkjet printer...$1500 and
dropping.

>good colour TV                $1,000

How big a screen?  A 13" runs about $200, 19" about $250, but if you want
highest resolution, newest bells and whistles and a *big* screen a thousand
isn't unreasonable.

>A 3-head non-stereo video player $600

A 2 head stereo video cassette recorder runs under $200, I don't know what
a 3 head would cost, and when you say player do you mean recorder/player or
just player?  Players are half the price of recorders.

>A fantasy or Sci-fi paperback   $16 - $18

New, 5 or 6 dollars.  Used, anywhere from 50 cents to 3 dollars.  Being
cheap, I mostly buy used books.

>TSR's Alternity RPG             $80 (rrp $US 29.95)

Yeah, 30 bucks.

>A T4 supplement                 about $40

I think the last few were $22.95, but the rule book was $25.

GURPS Traveller will be $19.95, I think.

>An unemployed's weekly Income Support payment 
>(under 25's get about $30 less) $150 - $170 per week after tax

Heck if I know, but down here it's pretty low compared to most of the
northern states.  I strongly doubt any kind of unemployment or support
would be more than $150 per week.

>The average income              about $33,000 per year, before tax

Well, again average income is lower down here, probably about $25,000.

>                                about $500 per week after tax

Guessing here, but I'd say about $300 per week after all taxes come out.

Utilities: 

    Phone service (unlimited local calls)   $17 per month
    Electric service (2,000kwh)             $140 per month
    Basic/Extended/Premium Cable            $8/$25/$50 per month
    Internet service (unmetered access)     $19.95 per month
    Gasoline                                $1.00 per gallon
    
Does that help?

    
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 00:05:31 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 03:09 AM 11/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:

>6 pack of beer  $6.99

>Utilities: 
>
>    Phone service (unlimited local calls)   $17 per month
>    Electric service (2,000kwh)             $140 per month
>    Basic/Extended/Premium Cable            $8/$25/$50 per month
>    Internet service (unmetered access)     $19.95 per month
>    Gasoline                                $1.00 per gallon
>    
>Does that help?

Yes, thanks. I think I'll have to immigrate - your utility & Petroleum
prices are so low, though your beer is expensive (assuming you're talking
about cans). We pay $9.95 per dozen for the cheap stuff, and $15.95 for the
good stuff.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:34:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Berthing costs

Leonard Erickson writes:
>>>>Where is it established that a misjump can keep you in jump space for four
>>>>whole weeks?
>>> 
>>>In the misjump rules, you roll for jump duration. 1d6 weeks. At least
>>>in CT. And I thought someone posted that MT was the same.
>>
>>I couldn't find that in any of my CT rulebooks. You roll a die for direction
>>and 1DD for distance, but not, as far as I can find, for duration.
> 
>This is in chapter "Travelling", section "Starship Malfunctions",
>subsection "Misjump".

Found it.
 
>Oh yeah, it's not 1D for distance. It's 1d6 *dice* for distance.

And I didn't write '1D'. I wrote '1DD' --  one die of dice.

Anyway, getting back to the subject, I admit that I can't prove that Cr4000
per month is excessive for life support, because I can't come up with any
cost examples, either Traveller or real-world, for the things (over and
about the food costs) that is absolutely essential. The food part can't
amount to much when you consider that Good Food costs Cr400/month. It's
true that that is for food bought over the counter and that prices may
be slightly higher because you have to buy food that can stay palatable
for weeks, but considering that this is easily and cheaply achivable by
TL7/8 level food preparation techniques, I just can't see it costing much
more than Cr30-40/day. But that leaves the CO2 removal and all the other
costs which is not defined and may possible amount to Cr100+ per day.

BUT, the cost of life support for space- and starships is demonstrably
broken in at least two aspects, to wit, the fact that passengers only
burdens the LS system for about 8 days per trip and should thus only cost
Cr1,200 and the fact that the cost is the same for High and Middle 
passengers despite Middle Passage food being described as inferior to
High Passage food. So there's a need for a fix anyway. And while we are
at it, we may as well think about whether we WANT life support to cost
Cr4000/month. That's a lot of money. I, for one regret that a starship
ticket costs the better part of a year's pay for the average citizen.
Logically this implies a very limited amount of tourist travel, which
is something I dislike. Also, it dosen't seem to jibe with the impression
I get of how most Traveller writers think of interstellar traffic. (And,
yes, I know that that is highly subjective and just an opinion. But when
you think of Mora Starport, do you think of the travellers there as 99%
official and commercial?)

Oh, and another question: How plausible do you find it that the life
support cost for someone travelling Mid Passage by tram freighter and
someone travelling High Passage by sceduled megacorporate passenger
liner is exactly the same? 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 09:59:36 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #474

J-Man <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>I believe the romans did not have "steel" but mainly bronze and some
>iron.

Some steel, a lot of iron, and bronze where necessary. (Iron ore is a lot
more common than tin.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:09:44 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller economics

Several people have suggested that the value of the Imperial credit is
actually defined by the requirement that a ship must transport on DT
of freight for CrImp1,000. Leaving aside the little trick someone else
supplied for circumventing this requirement by the legal fiction of
turning freight into speculative cargo, I'd like to know how you people
get around the fact that this definition results in about a dozen
different values for the Imperial credit? You get one value for each
TL from 9 to 15 for jump-1 ships, one value for each TL from 11 to 15
for jump-2 ships, etc. Even if you postulate that all jump-1 ships are
built at TL 9, all jump-2 ships at Tl 11, etc. you still get at least
six different values.

My own opinion is that the definition provided by _Pocket Empires_ is
quite useful: The average earnings of a citizen of any planet is defined
as Cr10,000; the Imperial credit is equal to the local credit on the
strongest (economically)  planets in the Imperium. To find the exchange
value of two currencies you compare the RU output of each planet (Mind
you, I'd like the way RU production is calculated changed slightly, but
that's a different subject).

This idea originally came from the writings of Jack Vance who in most of
his books have currencies expressed as the hourly wage of an unskilled
laborer "under certain standard conditions".

Frankly, I think it is much better to cut to the root of the problem and
make the freight and passenger rates realistic. All you need is a table
with less than a dozen lines showing the typical prices for the various
jump lengths and the various travel classes (High, Mid, Low, and I'd like
to suggest three more: Economy, Steerage, and Fast). And I've even come up
with a way to keep the High, Middle, and Low Passages ALMOST as they were:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
High, Mid, and Low Passages are not tickets. They are travel vouchers issued
by various Imperial institutions and a number of licenced private institutions
(mostly megacorporations). By Imperial law any High Passage voucher must be
accepted by any ship licenced to carry passengers as full payment for a High 
Passage ticket, regardless of the length of the jump. Likewise the Mid and
Low Passage must be accepted as payment for Mid and Low Passage tickets. The 
ship captain can then exchange the voucher for the price of the ticket at any 
Class A or B starport. For starships with a flexible attitude to ticket 
prices (ie. tramp ships) the law imposes a maximum reimbursement of 
Crimp10,000 for a High Passage, Crimp8,000 for a Mid Passage, and Crimp2000 
for a Low Passage, unless they can document expenses that warrants a higher
price.

Often a passenger who is about to use a ticket to take a jump-1 or jump-2
trip will try to sell his High or Mid Passage to someone who plans to take a
jump-3 trip. Such trades are technically illegal, but the Imperium usually
ignore it. The going rate is around Crimp9,000 for a High Passage and 
Crimp7,200 for a Mid Passage.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:22:57 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller economic stuff

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>Buying a starship is well beyond the resources of a starting starship-free
>party. Even using every undocumented trick in the book (MCr40 stripped-down
>ship built with 20% bulk-construction discount, with another 40% discount
>for being built TL11 credits in a TL15 Imperium with a final 40% discount
>for being 40 years old), you still get a deposit in the megacredit range.

There's an old Q&A that states that a 40 year old starship is worth 25% of
original cost, so the "discount" is actually 75%. The TNE rules formalized
that to the original cost divided by the "wear value", which, since IIRC
the wear value of a staship was usually the number of decades it was old,
fits well enough and also implies that you can get a 100 year old
starship for 10% of new price. The problem with this in a non-TNE campaign
is of course that there are no rules that makes a ship more likely to break
down the older it is. Under the CT rules it is madness for anyone to sell a
40 year old ship, because now that it is finally paid off it, is is really
going to earn money. After all, the payments constitute a good half of the
operating expenses. The implications are clear: A 40 year old, paid-up ship
is NOT as good as investment as a new ship. A referee that allows his
players to buy a ship cheap because it is old should IMO take care to
impose the occasional astronomical repair bill.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:39:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

Jo Grant writes:

>...here is a TL12 freighter with a capacity for 100,000t.
>
>[MT design of a 100,000 T jump-1 freighter.
> 
>On the opposite end here is a freighter carrying only 200t of cargo:
>
>[MT design of a 200 T jump-1 freighter] 
> 
>Anyway, in every system it has been possible to design profitable ships
>running freight at 1000Cr/jump. 

Sure. Jump-1 ships. It gets even easier when you (as I do) postulate that
regular freighters and passenger liners can easily make a jump every 10
days (Actually, that should propably be every 8 days on the average for
freighters (6 day jumps balancing out the 8 day jumps) and every 9 days
for passenger liners). But try making a jump-3 freighter or a jump-4
long-liner that can break even with Cr1000/T or Cr8,000/passenger. It
just can't be done. Yet Jump-3 and jump-4 liners are canonical. Problem?
It certainly is a problem to me.

>I do not advocate even thinking of changing the cost of freight. Rather
>the opposite, I think the idea of saying that the value of the Imperial
>Credit is based on a fixed cost of trade to be very plausible.

Plausible that you get a score of different values for the Crimp depending
on just which ship you use?

>Of significant note is that the majority of the cost of the ship (62%) is
>in the maneuver drive/power plant. Someone convinced me that specialised
>longhaul freighters can make due with engines that accelerate at only .05G.
>Profits increase sharply if you do that (54%/33% and 537Cr/331Cr for the
>100,000t model, 69%/48% and 693Cr/479Cr for the 200t model, but you'd be
>mad to run with a small ship that couldn't land on a planet). I can see a
>model similar to X-boats where you had jump ships with no maneuver drive at
>all.

True for the maneuver drive, but you can't lose the power plant. A ship
needs a power plant factor of at least half the jump number in order to
jump. So a jump-2 ship needs at least a power plant factor of 1. (BTW.
the freight and passenger rates I posted a few months ago are slightly
wrong for jump-3 and above due to me forgetting just that little factor;
I'll repost the whole thing in a few weeks or months when I've had time
to redisign all my ships).
 
>Once I designed a refinery station, which was basically a big take with a
>fuel purification processor and some tenders. I must do that again to see
>how much it _actually_ costs to collect and refine fuel. Or design some
>fuel tenders for the supertankers, since fuel is such a large part of the
>running costs...

The result I got to was that refined fuel wouldn't cost more than Cr300
because that was the point where it became more profitable for freighters
to carry an onboard fuel purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel. 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:41:02 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Profitable Starships

Steve Rennell writes:
>But If I expect to make a return of 5% off owning the ship...
Your figures are skewed because I'm already including most of that in my
profit calculations. I was giving examples of how _individuals_ owning
ships could make a profit. A large factor is the mortgage involved.
Megacorporations owning ships require rather different calculations. They
aren't paying a mortgage, they are gaining a return on their investment.
The third column on my spreadsheet gives breakeven figures for running
without paying a mortgage, those are much, much, more favourable. I just
didn't quote them because they weren't relevant to a discussion on
individual trading ships.

I'd be more than happy to post some long-haul designs with full statistics.
First, though, I have a hypothesis that I wish to prove. Basically, that
jump-1 ships are the most viable ships for facilitiating trading along a
main. I intend to do this by creating a suply and demand model of a main
and creating a computer simulation of it. Then, applying a number of
scenarios of ships and letting the computer work out optimal usage and
comparing the results. When I'm done I'll probably post the pieces as an
applet on the web so other people can run their own scenarios.

>I mean, even if a jump 1 is fixed at 1000 Cr/ton, why is a
>jump 2 exactly the same price?
My hypothesis is that less than 1% of trade is at anything higher than
jump-1 because you can't service your demands any better by using higher
jump capactity ships. But I'm not going to argue it till I can present some
data.

>Please consider the concept of changing the economics, even
>just a little...
Only if I can find conclusive evidence that the existing concepts can't
work. I haven't seen any yet.

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 17:02:47 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economic Stuff

Steve Daniels writes:
>...I think the Imperial Credit must be subsidized, and prices may even be
>fixed, because without such safeguards, inflation would be a tremendous
>danger to the economy.

Inflation is what you get if the supply of money grows faster that the
real wealth of the society. One risk of paper money is that the issuing
authority is able to increase the supply of money at will. However, if
properly controlled, paper money is actually better than a metal standard,
because you CAN'T control a metal standard very easily. An increase in
wealth that is not accompanied by new finds of the metal in question
will cause deflation, while a large strike will cause inflation as
surely as the most irresponsible of governments (OK, so the risk of
a significant strike will hardly be an issue in a 10,000 world economy).



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:03:43 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce

>I am very interested in running a campaign that centers around archeology
>and adventure (always adventure).
A noble aspiration. I've recently started running what might be described
as an Archaeological based D&D Campaign. (Scads of player info on
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~jaymin/EnumaElish if you are _really_ bored, but
none of the good archaeological bits.) What a pity the two trained
archaeologists I invited to play have been unable to make it! (Pete & co
will just have to suffer through themselves :-)

As a campaign plot-device, I might suggest you use a hook from the 101
books I did. There is a firm of archaeological consultants called "Mayes,
Fitzpatrick and Pierce" presented there. The logic presented is that
Imperial Law requires a full archaeological report if any construction on
any planet turns up any artifcats dating from before the known colonisation
date of that planet. (Aftifacts after that date may also require
archeological reports, but that is up to local law.) This is often a
headache for local builders on worlds with particularly rich history. The
normal thing is to call in Imperial Approved Archeological Consultants who
are normally given far less time than they would like to assess a site and
make a reccomendation. These teams are often subject to pressure and
politics between local archaeologists, the local building industry, the
governmental board of tourism, and whoever the customer is that is having
their construction project delayed by their investigation.
[Much of this is based on laws and observed processes around digging up
bits of Dublin.]
  So, one campaign would be for your characters to be roving archaeologists
working for MF&P (or a rival firm). As a DM, you can set up a place and
scenario, have them win the contract, play out the adventure, and then move
them on to the next place when you are ready. It allows you to give your
campaign overall structure without imposing on player freedom.

>I must admit I'm at a loss as to how to go
>about this without creating a logistical nightmare for the players.
  Well, unless you have any trained archeologists playing (sigh), you can
do much through simulation and puzzles. For example, one of the major plot
devices in my D&D campaign is a text written in a long dead language. Now
what I physically did was create the text, then print it out in an obscure
font. In short, what I have physically handed them is a simple substitution
cypher. I've made this clear and indicated that, in the reality of the
game, it is much more complex, with foriegn grammer, etc, etc. They are
welcome, as players, to attempt to crack the substitution cipher and if
they do so, I will assume their characters have worked it out. But if they
choose not to, their players will be pursuing clues as to word elements or
rosetta stones that will help them translate.
  So, in your situation, you might do something similar. Present them with
a text/inscription from the site containing clues as to the date or origin
of it, rendered in an unusual font. Allow them rolls against their
archeology and for successes and/or exceptional successes give them
characters they have worked out. They can then either try to work out the
rest from context or else consult with other archeological firms ("I'd like
to buy a vowel...").
  You can vary the difficulty by choosing a font that just maps single case
A-Z, or one that maps both cases differently, or one that maps the
punctuation to glyphs indistinguishable from letters. Or you can
pre-process the text by removing all vowels, changing all vowels to a
single vowel, removing all spaces, all punctuation, or converting it to
vertical writing. For an added twist you might use Alta-Vista's machine
translation engine to translate your text to, say, german. That way they
have to transliterate into a language they might not understand, _then_ run
it through their translator (give them access to Alta-Vista as an analogue
to their linguistic software).

>Also an understanding of archeology in
>the far future and what it might entail if the artifacts players uncover
are
>more advanced (and possibly forbidden) than their current society's.
In the long-term Traveller I ran I had several pre-existing empires. Over
time they got to know about some through finding bits and pieces of their
artifacts in various junk markets. They never had any names for them or
even a clue about dates.
One empire was based on "Star Wars" tech. There was the odd light-sabre
kicking around. But most of the sub-components were either mundane or
unusable (how much use is a COM port card for a PC-XT to an Eniac?).
Another was based on Klingon "Star Trek" (the old series) tech. They
actually found a fully working D-7 Klingon ship. Unfortunately everything
on it from the engines to the disruptors required anti-matter to run which
was in rather a short supply. The tech was just _too_ different to be of
more than academic interest.

Anyway, I think that is enough ideas to get you started...

Jo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #478
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 11 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 479



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

New Mexico
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Investment in Traveller
Re: FAQs
Re: New Mexico
Re: Steel 
Re: Steel 
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #474
Re: Profitable starships
Hello to the list
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
scratches can be deadly
Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce LLP
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 08:46:42 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: New Mexico

I'm going to spend the weekend in Taos and Santa Fe, New Mexico --
rather too far from Roswell to pay it a visit, but if you have any
suggestions on Traveller or science-fiction related stuff in
northeastern New Mexico, I'd appreciate it.  

Thanks.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 12:38:43 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

>> The average income  
[in NZ]
>   about $33,000 per year, before tax
>>                                 about $500 per week after tax
>
>I 
[Bloo] 
>think average US income is actually somewhat lower,
>around $28,000/year or so.  The poverty line is somewhere around
>$20,000 for a family of 4.

Just a note: $33k NZ is about $16500 US - quite a bit lower than the
average US income.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 10:50:19 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
...
>> 1) assumption: authorities will undertake physical inspection
>>for customs or security reasons while you're refuelling and/or
...
>> - you must kill the original occupants and remove evidence of same
>>to prevent the authorities from discovering you upon inspection.
>
>Well, no.  In addition to the assumption above, you have to assume
>that the  inspections are so detailed as to make hiding the
>crew more risky than someone willing to engage in such a
>crime is willing to accept.  You also have to assume that
>you can't simply threat over the head of the crew and get
>them too cooperate.

  OK. Upon reflection hiding the crew against a not very thorough
search shouldn't be too challenging. I fail to see how you might
threaten the crew, as once such an inspection is passed liquidating
them becomes a option again; if you could then anything can now be
justified, as the crew effectively act as accomplices in the
hijacking, willing or no.

>> 2) assumption: in addition to the above, (or not?) the original
>>occupants (due to spare time?) sent messages ahead or same was
>>done on their behalf, incidentally or intentionally.
>
>I'm not sure how this is done.  The hijacking would presumably
>be done in jump space.  And if you are talking about message
>sent to say "we are comming"  The way messages are carried
>is by ship.

  Covered previously (this is a summation); if anyone on board or
acting for them (or for the cargo), intentionally or not, sends a
message ahead of the ship (even by a couple of days) then any such
inspection will have a very obvious and simple thing to check.

  In fact, wouldn't an insurer (or the Captain, or the local officer
of the ships finance company) routinely send a message ahead while
the ship acquires cargo and passengers to its announced destination?
If so, failure to stop and unload the requisite passengers and cargo
(or simply failure by the Captain to debark and check in) would be
such an obvious red flag that successful hijacking of a ship so
protected would be ridiculously difficult.

>> a) Query - if such a jump fuel regime were adopted, would insurance
>>companies insist on such an inspection as listed #1), above? Why or
>>why not?
>
>Stopping ship and searching it every time it arrives at every system
>requires inspectors, ships to protect them, and delays for all
>shipping.  If the cost of these exceeds the rate highjackings
>then a rival company will simply offer insurance that, while
>it is more expensive, in the long run saves money by not requiring
>the inspections.

  Well, this is in the context of a drop-tank/jump station fuel model,
so ships to protect inspectors aren't relevant (and trivial to begin
with), as ships are inspected as they approach such a station.

  The possibility is overlooked that such inspections might be demanded
successfully by the shipping community from the government, and thus 
added to everyones tax bill (but under-represented on their own). Thus,
inspection costs would not directly affect any insurer.

...
>Why, if the captain doesn't think the likelyhood of his ship being
>lost isn't worth the insurance there is no reason for a shipper
>to require it.  If they feel their cargo need insurance, they can
>insure it themselves.

  Great, but what if I as the consignor try to put a cargo on a ship
that my insurance company considers unqualified? More to the point, I
assign the cargo to a local shipping broker - who is legally responsible
for my insured cargo - and he then makes sure that the cargo is carried
on a ship such that his insurer will cover him if something goes wrong.
Thus, any ship not so qualified won't get business from reputable sources.

  An uninsured ship can revert to the bank simply by breaking down,
mis-jumping, or suffering a fire, if cargo damage or non-performance
clauses are incurred against them while operating without insurance.
It seems very likely that any freight-hauler operating without coverage
would find it very difficult to get a freight cargo at all, probably
business passengers too, and that such status would be a good indicator
of an impending business failure.

  Would TNE discussions of these mechanics be useful?
  
        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:49:11 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

>At 03:09 AM 11/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>
>>6 pack of beer  $6.99
>
>>Utilities:
>>
>>    Phone service (unlimited local calls)   $17 per month
>>    Electric service (2,000kwh)             $140 per month
>>    Basic/Extended/Premium Cable            $8/$25/$50 per month
>>    Internet service (unmetered access)     $19.95 per month
>>    Gasoline                                $1.00 per gallon
>>
>>Does that help?
>
>Yes, thanks. I think I'll have to immigrate - your utility & Petroleum
>prices are so low, though your beer is expensive (assuming you're talking
>about cans). We pay $9.95 per dozen for the cheap stuff, and $15.95 for the
>good stuff.

As someone said, the U.S. is a Big place.  In New England (Northeastern
U.S.) $6.99 is the price for Guiness Stout, or a Good local Microbrew
(which are quite trendy these days).  Good old Budweiser (which I wouldn't
touch with a 10 foot pole) is much less.  Rolling Rock (which is a good
version of Bud) comes out at $4.50 per sixpack of bottles.

On the other hand, *all* the other prices on Eris' list are lowballed for
Boston and vicinity.  Especially housing, which is low by a factor of two.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 11:18:18 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

Hello,
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller
...
>>   A very large company will probably self-insure. I don't know
>> whether most banks would, but then, how do mega-corps behave?
>
>By self-insure, I guess you mean that they would expect a 
>larger percentage return from a starship investment to 
>cover the fact that the ship might disappear before it has 
>paid for itself?

  Well, they expect to be able to survive any reasonable number
of mishaps in a given time span. This presumes that their physical
capitalization is somewhat evenly distributed; if you own an oil
refinery, you insure it, but if you own 500 gas stations (or 7-11's,
etc.) you don't bother, as the insurance coverage will cost you
the expected loss, plus admin, plus the profit for the insurer.

  If your company owns 5000 Imperial-Express package boats (at say,
500 DT, J-4?), then why insure them? The cost of insuring _will_
exceed the long-run cost of paying for any losses yourself. FWIW,
with (HG) 20 EP & comp 4 I'd give the thing Agility-1 and a couple
of two-turret lasers (f-5) plus an f-4 sandcaster, all TL 13.

>I'm told that often large insurance companies will take out 
>sub-insurance policies with other insurance companies for 

  Yep. The portion of their capital tied up in one policy
can't be too big, if they're being prudent.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:17:25 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: FAQs

>Where could I get FAQs for Traveller's rules, not the FAQs for this mailing
>list?

You need to clarify this question.  There are four sets of rules, five
counting the Gurps:Traveller supplement, and many supplements pertinent to
each, all or none.

If you have a rules question, check the TML FAQ to see if its a "done to
death" question, if not, post your question.  Just don't expect one answer.


Pete

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 14:34:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

My geography may be lacking(so check a large-scale map :-)), but the
first things I'd look at visiting out in the region are Sandia and Los
Alamos National Labs. 

Alan




On Mon, 11 May 1998, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:

> I'm going to spend the weekend in Taos and Santa Fe, New Mexico --
> rather too far from Roswell to pay it a visit, but if you have any
> suggestions on Traveller or science-fiction related stuff in
> northeastern New Mexico, I'd appreciate it.  
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> --Glenn
> 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:49:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Steel 

> At 02:07 pm 5/10/98 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >I've seen some interesting homebrewed AK47's cranked out by village 
> >blacksmiths in my time, so don't confuse primitive conditions with 
> >technological impossibilities.  A good solid reworked high tech copy
> of 
> 
> 	I vaguely recall reading somewhere about Afghani blacksmiths doing
> just that with captured Russian weapons. But since they didn't really
> know exactly how the thing worked and what was important, they
> supposedly made *exact* copies--down to serial number, nicks and
> dings, and everything.

They did a pretty good job of monkey-copying them in Cambodia, too, especially
up in the highlands.  AK's are pretty easy to copy, they were *designed* to be
rugged as hell.  Now take that design philosophy up a few tech levels.  Slick
the design down to the point where you can de-evolve the design back down to
lower tech levels again for export to backwater planets.  Makes the seed of a
nifty lil nugget, I think.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 21:58:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Steel 

> At 02:07 PM 10/05/98 -0400, Keven wrote:
> 
> >Nugget:  About 20 years before, somebody carrying a TL12 copy of an AK47 got 
> >whacked on your TL4 backwater planet.  The local blacksmith took it apart to 
> >figure out how it worked.  Now there are a few thousand clones laying
> around...
> 
> You'd need to make that TL2. TL4 is about WWI, so there'd be more than a
> few thousand lying around.

Heheh.  Doncha just love it?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 15:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Howdy!

Steven Hudson offered:
> >From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
> ...
[snip]
> 
> >> 2) assumption: in addition to the above, (or not?) the original
> >>occupants (due to spare time?) sent messages ahead or same was
> >>done on their behalf, incidentally or intentionally.
> >
> >I'm not sure how this is done.  The hijacking would presumably
> >be done in jump space.  And if you are talking about message
> >sent to say "we are comming"  The way messages are carried
> >is by ship.
> 
>   Covered previously (this is a summation); if anyone on board or
> acting for them (or for the cargo), intentionally or not, sends a
> message ahead of the ship (even by a couple of days) then any such
> inspection will have a very obvious and simple thing to check.
> 
>   In fact, wouldn't an insurer (or the Captain, or the local officer
> of the ships finance company) routinely send a message ahead while
> the ship acquires cargo and passengers to its announced destination?
> If so, failure to stop and unload the requisite passengers and cargo
> (or simply failure by the Captain to debark and check in) would be
> such an obvious red flag that successful hijacking of a ship so
> protected would be ridiculously difficult.
> 
This presupposes that there is sufficient traffic to permit advance
notice to be sent. If that particular pair of systems is served by enough
traffic to permit this, then hijacking is less likely to be productive.
On the other hand, if it is not feasible (due to low traffic levels) to
send advance word, this assumption fails to hold.

[snip]

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:49:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Peter H. Brenton wrote:
> 

> As someone said, the U.S. is a Big place.  In New England (Northeastern
> U.S.) $6.99 is the price for Guiness Stout, or a Good local Microbrew
> (which are quite trendy these days).  Good old Budweiser (which I wouldn't
> touch with a 10 foot pole) is much less.  Rolling Rock (which is a good
> version of Bud) comes out at $4.50 per sixpack of bottles.

Yes, the US is a big place...here in Tucson 'Rolling Rock' is considered
a 'premium' beer and commands prices like $7-9 /six pack, while
Budweiser is typically avalable for $3.70-$4.50 /six, cheaper in
quantity. 

Beer pricing is also a weird thing. There is a Mexican beer, Corona,
which, to be charitable, _is_ yellow and fizzy, has been successfully
marketed in the US, particularly on the East Coast, as a premium import,
which is on the order of selling Pabst Blue Ribbon or Keystone Light as
a premium.

There is an excellent book I'd recommend to anyone who wants to see how
marketing-driven industries are like. It's called 'Beer blast : the
inside story of the brewing industry's bizarre battles for your money'
by Philip Van Munching,. whose grandfather started importing Heineken
beer into the US.

While it isn';t extraodinarily related to Traveller, other than it's
connection to most players favorite beverage ;-), it is a good source
for some great adventure hooks. 

The PC's, for instance, come upon this beverage that seems wildly
popular, called, oh, what the hell, letz call it Zima for inztanze ;->
They stock up on a large shipment of it, and negotiate an import
contract for a port further on the line.

They get to that further port, hustle around to set up buyers for this
wonderful new stuff, and find that the people here have taste buds and
think this Zima ztinkz, it tastes like slightly alcoholic bilgewater and
want no part of it.

Do the PC's a) break the contract, taking a bath on the cargo and
whatever sanctions the first place will impose on a party unilaterally
breaking a contract. b) declare a loss and skip out on the contract
(never to return to Port A) or c) hire a marketing firm to generate a
market for the stuff?

A ferinstance. So-called 'light' beer was first invented in the early
60's and was marketed as a healthier drink than regular beer, complete
with a stern doctor-figure hawking it and a serious advertising
campaign. It tanked, horribly. In the early 70's Miller brewing took
essentially the same stuff, called it 'Lite', hired a few ex-jocks to do
ads on TV, and got itself the fastest growing market segment for beer
since the repeal of Prohibition. 

Lots of potential for comedic, off-the-wall adventures, replete with
colorful characters, and little or no gunfire. Of course, to keep it
moving you'll have to make it pretty cinematic in feel, so it's not for
everyone's game, but as a one or two evening romp it'll make a diversion
from the usual fare.
 
Play a game or two of 'You don't know Jack TV' to get into it. ;-)
- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:16:54 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #474

At 09:59 AM 11/05/98 -0400, Rob Prior wrote:
>J-Man <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>>I believe the romans did not have "steel" but mainly bronze and some
>>iron.
>
>Some steel, a lot of iron, and bronze where necessary. (Iron ore is a lot
>more common than tin.)

They still used a lot of bronze, partly because of the lack of consistent
iron, but probably also from habit and tradition.

One of the reasons the Romans took Spain off the Carthaginians was for its
tin mines, and by the late empire they were so deep that even using
expendable slaves and constantly pumping (with slave powered pump) air in
they had to close some of them. Those mines are a good example of what you
can do with TL1.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:25:57 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

At 04:39 PM 11/05/98 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:
>
>True for the maneuver drive, but you can't lose the power plant. A ship
>needs a power plant factor of at least half the jump number in order to
>jump. So a jump-2 ship needs at least a power plant factor of 1. (BTW.
>the freight and passenger rates I posted a few months ago are slightly
>wrong for jump-3 and above due to me forgetting just that little factor;
>I'll repost the whole thing in a few weeks or months when I've had time
>to redisign all my ships).
>
>The result I got to was that refined fuel wouldn't cost more than Cr300
>because that was the point where it became more profitable for freighters
>to carry an onboard fuel purifier plant and buy unrefined fuel. 

I, for one will be pleased if you were to do this. When I play Traveller,
it's in the TNE setting, so I can cheerfully ignore any fixed Imperial
price structures, etc. I see this as a fine opportunity to redo the
economic system, and starship costs without destroying too much canon.
However I have no economics expertise at all, so I have to rely on other
people's postings.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 13:58:36 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hello to the list

Hello folks,

	I'm new to your list, but I'm an old Traveller player. I 
started with the first box set of three books and I still have it. I
have bought anything and everything I could over the many years 
regardless of what Traveller background. I have greatly slowed down
now, but I still enjoy this game the most.
	Now my comment and question is where have all the Traveller
players gone? The resource stuff always gets bought from the gaming
stores, but no one ever seems to play. I am a GM looking for some
older player (30+ years) in my area to look into starting up a new
gaming group. I live in Lower Bucks county Pa, in Bensalem PA.
	I'm hoping to form a group in the area of about four players
that would be willing to play every other week for about 4-5 hours.
Are their any of you mailer folks out there in my area?

Take care,

Odin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:58:52 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 01:49 PM 11/05/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>Yes, the US is a big place...here in Tucson 'Rolling Rock' is considered
>a 'premium' beer and commands prices like $7-9 /six pack, while
>Budweiser is typically avalable for $3.70-$4.50 /six, cheaper in
>quantity. 
>
>Beer pricing is also a weird thing. There is a Mexican beer, Corona,
>which, to be charitable, _is_ yellow and fizzy, has been successfully
>marketed in the US, particularly on the East Coast, as a premium import,
>which is on the order of selling Pabst Blue Ribbon or Keystone Light as
>a premium.

Corona was marketed here as a premium beer in the mid 90s, but it didn't
last and it doesn't move much these days because it's still massively
overpriced. 

BTW what percentage alcohol do US beers run to? Here they used to be about
4.5% with some at 5%, but in recent years they've dropped to 4% almost
universally. There are some low alcohol and lite beers around, but they're
not hugely popular.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:06:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> 

> BTW what percentage alcohol do US beers run to? Here they used to be about
> 4.5% with some at 5%, but in recent years they've dropped to 4% almost
> universally. There are some low alcohol and lite beers around, but they're
> not hugely popular.

Here, believe it or not, it is illegal to put the alcohol percentage on
the label. IIRC, and I may not, beer runs 3.5 to 5% roughly, with malt
liquors running higher, some of those go up to about 10%. Brewers on the
list can probably answer more accurately.

Fortunately, the microbrew revolution in the US has meant that US
consumers are slowly regaining their taste buds, and are able to buy
beers with flavor and character...sometimes too much of it. (I once
grabbed a Samuel Adams beer I thought said Porter on the label. It
did...Maple Porter. It was flavored with maple syrup. <shudder> A bottle
now sits in the medicine cabinet where the syrup of ipecac once
sat...this stuff is worse. Gaaahhh, I can still taste that abomination.)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:45:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: scratches can be deadly

> From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>

[great Traveller session story deleted to here]

> He then does the roll to treat the wound and rolls
> a 3D6 mishap. The patient takes additional damage. The doctor
> rolls to re-diagnose successfully, but can't complete the
> treatment in the time allocated before the wound gets more
> serious. The patient takes 2D6 more damage, and her
> Strength, Dexterity, and Endurance are now 002.
> 
> He finally manages to treat her without things getting 
> worse. The patient is now under medical slow drug,
> recovering from two separate surgeries.
> 
> My wife ain't amused.

If this took place in my campaign, the story might continue as follows: 
Wife's insurance company picks up the cost of medical slow drug and
treatment by competent staff at a professional medical facility, then
sues the doctor for malpractice on behalf of wife to recover these
costs.  

Doctor and wife are off adventuring again by the time this gets rolling,
and when they get back, doctor finds out that insurance company has
taken a default against him and is attaching his portion of the spoils
of the current adventure.  Doctor now can't afford a lawyer to take on
insurance company to get his money back (even though Doctor is probably
in the right, as he didn't have notice that he was being sued), and will
have to come grovelling to wife and the other adventurers for either a
loan of enough money to hire a lawyer to get his money back, or for
enough money to survive on until the next payday.  This should make for
some interesting role-playing, and sweet revenge for wife. 

Also, the medical licensing authorities are considering whether to
revoke doctor's license.  This may not make much difference to the
doctor, who doesn't have a regular practice where he needs to reassure
patients who don't know him that he's really a doctor ... of course, if
the adventurers ditch him for incompetence, he may have to go hang out a
shingle, and will want to protect his license.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 16:53:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce LLP

> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
> Subject: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce
 
> As a campaign plot-device, I might suggest you use a hook from the 101
> books I did. There is a firm of archaeological consultants called "Mayes,
> Fitzpatrick and Pierce" presented there. The logic presented is that
> Imperial Law requires a full archaeological report if any construction on
> any planet turns up any artifcats dating from before the known colonisation
> date of that planet. (Aftifacts after that date may also require

This would be worse -- for a developer -- than putting together an
Environmental Impact Report.  If the PCs are working for the Mayes firm,
they might be bribed or threatened by the developer or its competition
or locals or who knows.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 20:19:51 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 04:06 pm 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> 
>
>> BTW what percentage alcohol do US beers run to? Here they used to be about
>> 4.5% with some at 5%, but in recent years they've dropped to 4% almost
>> universally. There are some low alcohol and lite beers around, but they're
>> not hugely popular.
>
>Here, believe it or not, it is illegal to put the alcohol percentage on
>the label. IIRC, and I may not, beer runs 3.5 to 5% roughly, with malt
>liquors running higher, some of those go up to about 10%. Brewers on the
>list can probably answer more accurately.

	Depends on the area and where you buy it. Utah nothing stronger than
3.2% is allowed; likewise in Colorado grocery stores may only sell
3.2 beer--real stuff is restricted to liquor stores (and not
available on Sunday). A friend of mine brewed a batch of 10+%
recently ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:24:19 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 11:40 AM 5/11/98 +1200, you wrote:

>An unemployed's weekly Income Support payment 
>(under 25's get about $30 less) $150 - $170 per week after tax

My disabilty payments were $290 every two weeks.  That was based on my
earnings for the quarter before I got sick (again.)

>The average income              about $33,000 per year, before tax
>                                about $500 per week after tax

In 1996, the average income in the US was around $24,000, before taxes.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #479
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 12 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 480



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New Mexico
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
re : Profitable Starships
Imported goods (was Re: Relative Prices
Re: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce LLP
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Imported goods (was Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
TCS rule lookup request
Slow moving space travel
Re: FAQs
Re: Hijacking
Re: Relative Prices

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:14:25 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: New Mexico

At 08:46 AM 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
>I'm going to spend the weekend in Taos and Santa Fe, New Mexico --
>rather too far from Roswell to pay it a visit, but if you have any
>suggestions on Traveller or science-fiction related stuff in
>northeastern New Mexico, I'd appreciate it.  

You could wander by Holomann AFB and see the Revenge of the Germans.  The
base has been leased to the Luftwaffe and is used for their attack jet
training.  The squadron logo is an Maltese Cross on the Zuni sun symbol.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:17:50 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 11:40 AM 5/11/98 +1200, you wrote:

>A bolt-action .308 rifle, new   $1,200
>A bolt-action .308 rifle, used  $1,200

*gack*  I'm in the process of buying a Lee-Enfield SMLE, and I'm a bit
upset at the US$250 price tag!  Why in the world are firearms so expensive?
 The rest of the list looks similar to expensive areas of the US (San
Francisco in particular.)
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 19:34:03 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 04:06 PM 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote:

>Fortunately, the microbrew revolution in the US has meant that US
>consumers are slowly regaining their taste buds, and are able to buy
>beers with flavor and character...sometimes too much of it. (I once
>grabbed a Samuel Adams beer I thought said Porter on the label. It
>did...Maple Porter. It was flavored with maple syrup. <shudder> A bottle
>now sits in the medicine cabinet where the syrup of ipecac once
>sat...this stuff is worse. Gaaahhh, I can still taste that abomination.)

Anchor Steam (whose brewery is about 1km from where I work) had a clever ad
campaign designed to get San Franciscans to drink their native brew.  The
ads feature a stern looking bartender with the copy "Flavored beer?  What,
you from L.A.?"

For those not local, San Francisco and Los Angeles cheerfully hate each
other, with rivalries in sports and everything else going back years.  Of,
course, what can you expect but jealousy from a bunch of Angelinos who call
a dry concrete culvert a river.  :)

ObTrav:  Players run into such a rivalry while trying to sell a cargo.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 12:36:42
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Profitable Starships

>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: Re: Profitable Starships
>
>I'd be more than happy to post some long-haul designs with full statistics.
>First, though, I have a hypothesis that I wish to prove. Basically, that
>jump-1 ships are the most viable ships for facilitiating trading along a
>main. I intend to do this by creating a suply and demand model of a main
>and creating a computer simulation of it. Then, applying a number of
>scenarios of ships and letting the computer work out optimal usage and
>comparing the results. When I'm done I'll probably post the pieces as an
>applet on the web so other people can run their own scenarios.
>

Cool. Start with a hypothesis, then design an experiment to test it.

I completely disagree with your hypothesis, but hey *grin* thats
intellectual debate.

The factors that could affect the services are

(1) when do cargos become available. Are they random (if it's a good year
the planet exports fungi beans) or are they predictable (Ford's assembley
line turns out 200 export grav cars each and every month).

(2) are interest costs on holding the cargo signifigant ? Imagine a good
that costs a megacredit to own, and costs Cr 20 000 to ship 20 jump-1s over
6 months. If interest rates are over 4%, the cost of owning that good for
the 6 months will exceed the cost of shipping it ...

(3) where do cargos have to go ... is it random world to random world, or
do Ag worlds tend to export to Ind worlds etc ?

(4) what are transhipment costs like ? Imagine a "hub" system where goods
are exported to a world with a fast service, and then re-shipped down the
line, and then go onto a all-stops to the destination. If reshipping is
costly, how costly should it be (I dunno. Cr 50 per dton shounds about
right to me). 

(5) whats the value of the cargos. Hi value cargos are more frequently
worth shipping long distances fast.

>>I mean, even if a jump 1 is fixed at 1000 Cr/ton, why is a
>>jump 2 exactly the same price?
>My hypothesis is that less than 1% of trade is at anything higher than
>jump-1 because you can't service your demands any better by using higher
>jump capactity ships. But I'm not going to argue it till I can present some
>data.
>

We'll see what your experiment crunches out.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:58:07 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Imported goods (was Re: Relative Prices

Bruce Johnson wrote:
There is an excellent book I'd recommend to anyone who wants to see how

> marketing-driven industries are like. It's called 'Beer blast : the
> inside story of the brewing industry's bizarre battles for your money'
> by Philip Van Munching,. whose grandfather started importing Heineken
> beer into the US.
>
> While it isn';t extraodinarily related to Traveller, other than it's
> connection to most players favorite beverage ;-), it is a good source
> for some great adventure hooks.
>
> The PC's, for instance, come upon this beverage that seems wildly
> popular, called, oh, what the hell, letz call it Zima for inztanze ;->
> They stock up on a large shipment of it, and negotiate an import
> contract for a port further on the line.
>
> They get to that further port, hustle around to set up buyers for this
> wonderful new stuff, and find that the people here have taste buds and
> think this Zima ztinkz, it tastes like slightly alcoholic bilgewater and
> want no part of it.
>
> Do the PC's a) break the contract, taking a bath on the cargo and
> whatever sanctions the first place will impose on a party unilaterally
> breaking a contract. b) declare a loss and skip out on the contract
> (never to return to Port A) or c) hire a marketing firm to generate a
> market for the stuff?
>

On a similar note regarding Heinekin, I've had it up here in the States and its
pretty good. But then I went down to Costa Rica and had some down there.  It was
bottled down there but I'm not sure if it was brewed there.  All I know is that
it stunk up the place... aweful... But the local Costa Rican stuff was pretty
good.

So, I gotta wonder, do they intentionally skunk the imports to boost domestic
goods?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:17:43 -0500
From: Michael Croft <croft@neosoft.com>
Subject: Re: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce LLP

>> From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>> Subject: Mayes, Fitzpatrick and Pierce
>
>> As a campaign plot-device, I might suggest you use a hook from the 101
>> books I did. There is a firm of archaeological consultants called "Mayes,
>> Fitzpatrick and Pierce" presented there. The logic presented is that
>> Imperial Law requires a full archaeological report if any construction on
>> any planet turns up any artifcats dating from before the known colonisation
>> date of that planet. (Aftifacts after that date may also require
>
>This would be worse -- for a developer -- than putting together an
>Environmental Impact Report.  If the PCs are working for the Mayes firm,
>they might be bribed or threatened by the developer or its competition
>or locals or who knows.

The state of Texas currently requires this.  I've a friend who used to work
for one of the local equivalents.  It's one of the few ways that
archaeologists get to hang out a shingle and still feed themselves outside
of academia.

ObTraveller: If there is a planet inside the contiguous (whatever that
means in space) borders of the Imperium or on the immediate frontier, the
Megacorps might in fact wish to keep it from joining in order to avoid
pesky regulations (this could be modeled on the Puerto Rico/Pharmaceuticals
industry relationship).
Michael Croft                 mailto:croft@neosoft.com
http://www.neosoft.com/~croft mailto:jcroft@carman.com
- --

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:36:42 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 08:19 PM 11/05/98 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:

>	Depends on the area and where you buy it. Utah nothing stronger than
>3.2% is allowed; likewise in Colorado grocery stores may only sell
>3.2 beer--real stuff is restricted to liquor stores (and not
>available on Sunday). A friend of mine brewed a batch of 10+%
>recently ...

Here only liquor stores can sell beer and hard liquor, but supermarkets etc
can sell wines. Nobody can sell alcohol on a Sunday.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:42:51 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 07:17 PM 11/05/98 -0700, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 11:40 AM 5/11/98 +1200, you wrote:
>
>>A bolt-action .308 rifle, new   $1,200
>>A bolt-action .308 rifle, used  $1,200
>
>*gack*  I'm in the process of buying a Lee-Enfield SMLE, and I'm a bit
>upset at the US$250 price tag!  Why in the world are firearms so expensive?
> The rest of the list looks similar to expensive areas of the US (San
>Francisco in particular.)

That was a mistake. A second hand .308 in good repair of a modern model
costs about NZ$900. An old SMLE would cost $100 - $200 depending on
condition, because there are heaps of them around, most very beaten up.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:36 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imported goods (was Re: Relative Prices

At 10:58 PM 11/05/98 -0400, Joe Pettit wrote:

>On a similar note regarding Heinekin, I've had it up here in the States and its
>pretty good. But then I went down to Costa Rica and had some down there. It was
>bottled down there but I'm not sure if it was brewed there.  All I know is that
>it stunk up the place... aweful... But the local Costa Rican stuff was pretty
>good.
>
>So, I gotta wonder, do they intentionally skunk the imports to boost domestic
>goods?

Not here. Local Heinekin is brewed here, and it taste OK. We also brew
Guiness locally, and it was voted the best Guiness outside of Ireland. The
only downside is that it's expensive.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 98 00:36:05 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

On 05/12/98 at 12:05 AM,  Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz> said:

>>Does that help?

>Yes, thanks. I think I'll have to immigrate - your utility & Petroleum
>prices are so low, though your beer is expensive (assuming you're talking
>about cans). We pay $9.95 per dozen for the cheap stuff, and $15.95 for
>the good stuff.

Yes, I'm talking cans, 10oz I think.  I wouldn't hazard a guess at the
price of "the good stuff." ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 98 00:49:34 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

On 05/11/98 at 02:49 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:

>On the other hand, *all* the other prices on Eris' list are lowballed for
>Boston and vicinity.  Especially housing, which is low by a factor of two.

Hee! Of *course* they are. I live in the cheap south, you live in the
expensive northeast.  I'm sure if we compared average salaries we'd
discover you folks earn a lot more up there.   The example I can give you
is for public school teachers, about $35,000 a year for teachers with
Masters degrees and 20 years experience. Starting salaries are around 20k.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 01:07:44 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Mon, 11 May 1998 10:50:19 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>  OK. Upon reflection hiding the crew against a not very thorough
>search shouldn't be too challenging. I fail to see how you might
>threaten the crew, as once such an inspection is passed liquidating
>them becomes a option again;

The same way you make people cooperate in sending the police
away today.  You either convince them you are the sort of
person who will kill you out of spite if you double
cross them, or you actually be that sort of person.

>  Covered previously (this is a summation); if anyone on board or
>acting for them (or for the cargo), intentionally or not, sends a
>message ahead of the ship (even by a couple of days) then any such
>inspection will have a very obvious and simple thing to check.

I guess I missed that.  The fact is that there won't always
be a ship leaving to right destination and you won't always
be in position where you know your destination days before
you leave.  You would have add the willingness to put up
with that to your list of assumptions.

>>Stopping ship and searching it every time it arrives at every system
>>requires inspectors, ships to protect them, and delays for all
>>shipping.  If the cost of these exceeds the rate highjackings
>>then a rival company will simply offer insurance that, while
>>it is more expensive, in the long run saves money by not requiring
>>the inspections.

>  Well, this is in the context of a drop-tank/jump station fuel model,
>so ships to protect inspectors aren't relevant (and trivial to begin
>with), as ships are inspected as they approach such a station.

How does the inspector get onboard before you reach the station?
And even if he did, how do you get the ship to surrender?  What
is to keep them from just demanding the fuel to flee with?

>  The possibility is overlooked that such inspections might be demanded
>successfully by the shipping community from the government, and thus
>added to everyones tax bill (but under-represented on their own).

Only if the costs were within what was justified by the percieved
threat of highjackings.  What is going to happen is what happens
in all sorts of crime, measure are going to be instituted to reduce
it to a managable level, and then you can find the money for
further measures.  I see the problems of reselling the shipa
and getting by the ship's crew as already getting down to that
level.

>>Why, if the captain doesn't think the likelyhood of his ship being
>>lost isn't worth the insurance there is no reason for a shipper
>>to require it.  If they feel their cargo need insurance, they can
>>insure it themselves.

>  Great, but what if I as the consignor try to put a cargo on a ship
>that my insurance company considers unqualified?

Being insured doesn't make you more qualified and the measures that
can be instituted to make sure you are qualified can be used without
forcing you to take insurance you don't need.

Besides you don't base your trust on people carring insurance for
unlikely events.  You don't require bonded couriers to carry
life insurance to prove they won't die before they get to
their destination.

More generally, I think the proposals in various threads for
inspections of every ship, patrols everywhere, extensive
(and cross checked) records and permits, extensive commercial
airline safety regulations, untamperable transponders, extensive
flight control regulations to make sure ships can be watched, etc.
all fits better with our current regulated society with easy
communication than it does with what I see as a decentralised,
laisse faire, poor communications Imperium.  I just don't
see these kind of measure being in place to _totally_ eliminate
any crime (which is probably impossible if you realize that
history shows us that measures that are expected to totally
eliminate any crime almost always fail to do so).

____________________________
Summers@Alum.MIT.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:41:54 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 12:49 AM 12/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>On 05/11/98 at 02:49 PM,  "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> said:
>
>>On the other hand, *all* the other prices on Eris' list are lowballed for
>>Boston and vicinity.  Especially housing, which is low by a factor of two.
>
>Hee! Of *course* they are. I live in the cheap south, you live in the
>expensive northeast.  I'm sure if we compared average salaries we'd
>discover you folks earn a lot more up there.   The example I can give you
>is for public school teachers, about $35,000 a year for teachers with
>Masters degrees and 20 years experience. Starting salaries are around 20k.

A New Zealand High School (13-15 year olds) teacher, starting with a 1 year
Teaching Diploma and a Batchelor's Degree with Honours gets about
NZ$28,000. This is about 85% of the average wage, which from the prices
that have been posted seems to be a fairly useful comparison.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:52:27 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

>Bruce Johnson wrote;
>Fortunately, the microbrew revolution in the US has meant that US
>consumers are slowly regaining their taste buds, and are able to buy
>beers with flavor and character...sometimes too much of it. (I once
>grabbed a Samuel Adams beer I thought said Porter on the label. It
>did...Maple Porter. It was flavored with maple syrup. <shudder> A bottle
>now sits in the medicine cabinet where the syrup of ipecac once
>sat...this stuff is worse. Gaaahhh, I can still taste that abomination.)

And let's not even discuss that Cranberry Lambic stuff.  They finally
dumped a lot of it by marketing a "Winter Gift Pack" with eight bottles of
four different types of Sam Adams, including the Cranberry, then marking it
down to less then a six-pack.

Funny thing is, a friend convinced me to try it on tap (at the "Sam Adams
Brew Pub" - living in Boston has it's advantages) and it wasn't half bad.

Oh, and avoid the Sea Dog flavor "Hazelnut Porter".  It tastes *exactly*
like cold fizzy hazelnut coffee.  Not a good juxtaposition.  I served one
bottle to six people in demitasse (read espresso) cups and we all agreed
that was just about the right amount ("now hand me an IPA").  A shame whn
Sea Dog makes so many other *good* beers.

ObTrav

Beer has followed humans throughout history, wherever they go.  Egyptians
codified beer brewing practices on their buildings and temples, Ancient
Celts, Romans, Greeks, Aztecs, all brewed this special stuff.  Pilgrims on
the way to Plymouth Rock almost panicked when the beer appeared to be
running out.  It is only natural that beer followed humans to the stars.

Some special cargos;

12 Tons of Genetically Engineered TL12 Brewers yeast
24 tons of premium mutant five-row barley
8 tons of specialty "Pixie Mountain" hops
100 tons of Beer. (Keep the crew out of the cargo bay).

Don't forget that it is customary and wise for the prospective cargo buyer
to get a sample of the goods being sold to them. :)

I think I'll come up with an adventure based around Beer, then brew a
homebrew to drink while we play.  I could almost use my current batch,
"Fusion Ale".

Pete



                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:42:47 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: TCS rule lookup request

Hiya Folks,
     I don't have TCS with me in Boston. If there is someone on the list
with it to hand can they check two items for me?
     I seem to recall that there was a figure mentioned of how many tons of
starship different classes of ports could build at any one time.
     Second, somewhere in High Guard is given a figure of how many weeks it
takes to build a starship relative to the size of it. I need that figure.

     You can probably see where I'm going. I want to solve the age old
problem of just how many starships are out there. If we know the above two
figures, and add to that a guess of "how long a starship is servicable
for", apply it to the combined data of the Imperium I have from Galactic I
should be able to state how many tons of shipping exist within the Imperium
at any time.
     Please reply by private e-mail. I'll post whatever analisys I do to
the list.
     Cheers,
          Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 06:50:13 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Slow moving space travel

Hello folks,

I use a slow moving drive system within my Traveller campaign setting.
The campaign is set in the Verge sector of space, but I don't use
the standard  Traveller game background.

Space travel is done by 'Star drive' or 'Fixed Jump Gates'. The 
Star Drive system requires the crew to go into Suspended Cold Sleep
for the trip. Usually it takes months to travel between what would
normally be a Jump-1. It all depends on the Drive system of the 
Ship thats using it's 'Star Drive' engines to do the travel.

The 'Fixed Jump Gates' are usually built within systems that are
both well developed and centrally located along the star lanes. In
my campaign it requires a lot of resources to build a 'Fixed Jump
Gates'. Plus they are a point to point jump location.

Picture a Large thick Ring that has a very large Reactor built
within it to power the thing. There is a small crew on them, kind
of like Air Traffic Controllers. A ship moves to a jump point, and
contacts the Ring as they are called. Ring Core Command then asks 
the ship it's business, destination, and etc.

The Ring's crew then activates the Jump Gate and sets the destination
for the ship that is travelling. Then the ship maneuvers into the 
Ring and enters the worm-hole like tunnel to their destination. I 
state that the ship is in Hyper-Space at this point, but they are
travelling in a corridor with the end destination the next Jump Gate.

Now up until this point they were point to point Fixed Jump Gates.
This means that a jump-gate built in system X and then in Y was a 
single link only between x and Y.  Very recently it has been discovered 
through some advancements that depending on the power
of the sender jump-gate and other new technology that it is possible
for one jump-gate to send to other near by systems jump-gates.

Still to even build the jump-gate, takes a lot of resources and
time. So only the main travelled lanes have them. Then travel is
left to 'Star Drives' travel. The bigger the power system, the
quicker the 'sleepers' get to their destinations.

As to over all flavor and feel for the setting think of TV show;
Earth 2. You could also think of all of the Aliens movies, plus
Silent Running. 

The players are usually within either the Scouts or work for one
of the many corps like: PELL, Treckion, GTE . I guess one might 
say this is a pocket-empire, but I just don't deal with that issue
other to say that human life dates back a long time on their home 
world. Actually they were settled there by the Ancients, but that
is something in game to be discovered.

As to other races, well I have always liked them all but I perfer
to use the  Kaufers (spelling) from Traveller 2300. They are very
cool and so easy to have players hate. I also have some other races
that I've designed, but don't all Gm's?

So this campaign was played for seven years with the same seven
players. I have to rebuild my gaming group again, and I want to 
reset and make some minor changes. I have non of my original players
so it will all be new for the new group, but I'm looking for some
ideas and thoughts that some of this collective might have?

Odin

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:59:25 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: FAQs

Peter H. Brenton writes:

>>Where could I get FAQs for Traveller's rules, not the FAQs for this mailing
>>list?
> 
>You need to clarify this question.  There are four sets of rules, five
>counting the Gurps:Traveller supplement, and many supplements pertinent to
>each, all or none.

You may even say that there are six sets of rules. I'm referring to what I
would call ET, "Early Traveller", the very first edition of the Traveller
rules. It has jump torpedoes, lack drop tanks, and life support costs are
fixed for each stateroom and low berth regardless of whether they are used
or not (Ie. Cr2000/jump with 0, 1, or 2 occupants!).

And, of course, Imperial Cruisers were a lot smaller...

1/2 :-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:02:15 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Hijacking

If you assume rampant corruption in certain areas, it is possible to
steal and sell ships.

a. Hijackers make arrangements with a representative of a shady
deep-space salvage operator.
b. Hijackers steal ship [just take it for granted, for the moment,
that this is possible], space the crew or use their bodies in step c.
If you're squeamish, they can get offloaded (unconscious) later with
the hijackers, although you have to figure out what to do with them.
c. Hijackers fake an accident, jump to an empty hex.
d. Deep-space salvage operator "happens" to meet them.  The hijackers
take on pre-arranged identities as crew of the salvage ship.
e. Sell the ship back to the company at a fraction of its cost.  Split
the profits.
f. Company realizes that if they start investigating, the ship will
simply get sold to someone else, vastly increasing their losses to
this activity, and decide to cut their losses.

Once this gets going, you also have an alternate line for when (b)
fails.

b'. Hijackers fail to steal ship and are captured.
c'. Hijackers are turned over to the authorities at the next stop.
d'. Thoroughly bribed authorities at the next stop (and you waited
until you had a ship going to the right place) hold onto the hijackers
with promise of really stiff penalties.
e'. Ship moves on (it cannot afford to stay indefinately).  Hijackers
get a slap on the wrist.


What makes this possible is the fact that even the fraction of the
ship's value which you get from selling the ship to the company is
large enough to bribe a lot of people, pretty well.

	-Robert Ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com

The idea's taken from one of David Weber's Honor Harrington books.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 07:24:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Some special cargos;

> 100 tons of Beer. (Keep the crew out of the cargo bay).

Ahhh, this minds me of that old Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic..to paraphase:
"Remember that five year supply of beer we had? (one week later) " ;-)

The only way to keep the crew out of that cargo bay will be to give them a few
cases for the trip.

This brings up another point, albeit obliquely...one thing that _isn't_
modeled in shipping and cargo rules are the ubuitiquos sticky fingers that
inhabit every port mankind has ever had.

Do any of you run a port like, say, Kennedy Airport at the height of John
Gotti's reign? (for those of you who don't know the details, John Gotti,
imprisoned erstwhile head of the New York crime families, and his crew got
their start stealing cargos from Kennedy International Airport. At one point,
losses were reaching staggering levels.)

Guarding your ship well isn't going to help much when the ground crew robs you
blind on the trip from your hold to the warehouse, or out of the customs
warehouse. Oh yeah, union rules say you gotta use the local ground crews to
move your cargo, or it doesn't get moved. Recalcitrant captains and brokers
will be convinced with baseball bats.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #480
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 12 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 481



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tank glitch?
Alternative character creation system...
Re: New Mexico
Space travel by...means X
Re: Alternative character creation system...
Re: Alternative character creation system...
Re: Alternative character creation system...
Re: TCS rule lookup request
UWP question
Re: UWP question
Re: Investment in Traveller
(Fwd) Re: Profitable Starships
OK who knows this...
Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
Re: New Mexico
Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:35:14 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?

Steven Hudson writes:
>  I've been waiting for this one to pop up. Why build any internal
>Jump fuel tankage at all on new construction or large refits?
> 
>  The dedicated internal tanks on my Far Trader take up 40 DT of my
>hull, which latter is (in HG) costed at MCr 0.1 per. Instead, I can
>now build a 160 DT hull with drive capacity for 200 DT loadout, and
>install 40 DT worth of tanks for MCr 0.05 complete. Unit cost reduced
>by MCr 3.95, which means about another Cr 10,000 each month that I don't
>have to earn (or, I've got 10 tons of invisible cargo revenue on the
>books).

BINGO! I've always disliked the rule that droptanks can't be reused because
I felt that it must be possible to use a decoupling system that didn't ruin
the tank. But I completely failed to realize the implication of drop tanks
being som much cheaper than interior fuel tankage. Obviously drop tanks are
of much more flimsy construction. So much so that they aren't safe to
reuse. I propose the following rule:

	If a drop tank is reused there is a risk of a malfunction.
	Roll 2D. On a 13+ something goes wrong. DM: +1 per previous
	use. Being carried along on a jump is the equivalent of one
	use.

With non-reusable drop tanks, jump-1 high capacity ships are more expensive
than standard ships and jump-2 HC ships are more or less the same cost;
considering the loss in flexibility, I don't think you'd see many. If we
also postulate that most systems would require the user to clean up his
tanks after him (to eliminate a hazard to traffic), jump-3 HC ships may
even become somewhat iffy, depending on the cost of collecting and
disposing of the tanks.

REUSABLE DROP TANKS

What then about making drop tanks that really are reusable? Surely that
would be technically possible (and necessary to allow the _Gazelle_ class
to exist). The exact figures depends on precisely what assumptions you
make, but I'd estimate that if the volume of fuel sold is high enough
(80,000+ T/year), reusable drop tanks won't add more than between 200 and
300 credit to the per ton cost of fuel. So unless there is some way to
cut down on the number of times a year you can use a reusable drop tank,
the basic problem still exists. In my estimate I allowed the tanks to be
used once every 24 hours. How long would you think it could reasonably
take? Here's the setup: You have a departing ship stop near your fuel
station at the jump limit. A crew of trained operators go out and mount
drop tanks on the ship. How long does that take? The ship use the tanks
and jumps. The crew fetches back the drop tanks. How long does that take?
Do the tanks need any treatment before they are ready to be used again?

A requirement that the tanks be brought back to a shipyard and have minor
repairs done on them would make them a lot less profitable, but is that a
realistic, or at least a not-TOO-implausible requirement?

Any thought? Opinions?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:22:01 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Alternative character creation system...

Hello folks,

	How is this for a different start up character system.
Provide players with a pool of points to build character
stats and skills/levels. The players decide what stats they
want and what skills with corresponding levels they also want.
Then as long as they have the needed amount of Character Creation
points, then they can build that character.
	In my game this means that players have to really think
about what matters to them and what is more important. This makes
them think about their choices and work together in character
creation and it also helps to form a better team environment.
People decide what type of career their character really is
following, and build a workable one. Also the group each builds
a character that specializes in a specific set of jobs and also
they build in some lap-over jobs as well. 
	I also use a system for the design of the groups start-up
ship. The team gets a certain pool of Building points where they
spend them to buy a specific hull type, and then the various 
systems that the ship will have. This give the players to tailor
their ship for the type of missions and etc that they want to do.
	As a GM this gives me lots of room for little incentives 
or rewards to have the ship upgraded or refit if the team will
go on this mission or that. 
	I like to give my players total freedom of choice to choose
what they want or don't want to do. They can even make their own
issues and etc to pursue. The universe is a big place, and it is
out there for the players to freely explore as they feel is right.

Odin

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:29:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

In Traveller-digest V1998 #479, Alan Peery <peery@io.com> writes:

> My geography may be lacking(so check a large-scale map :-)), but the
> first things I'd look at visiting out in the region are Sandia and Los
> Alamos National Labs. 

Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
"Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.

I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
       "Where am I... and what am I doing in this handbasket?"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 08:35:01 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Space travel by...means X

Hello folks,

	In my game universe I use the following systems for
Star Travel:
	
	Star Drive (Cold sleep - months of travel)
	Fixed Star Gates (orbital/planetary point to point)
	Star Gates (Multiple destinations from a single point)
	Hyper-Space (ships can create their own Gate and
		then travel through Hyper-space and then open
		another Gate in re-enter real space)
	Warp Drive (fast travel between systems)
	Fold (extreme high tech travel across great distances)

	Mostly Star Drives and Fixed Star Gates are the standard
and there are a few Star Gates too. I also have Haulers, that have
the Hyper-Space Drives that carry other Non-Star Drive and some
smaller Star Drive ships. Warp isn't known, it's only a theory
to mankind. Fold is totally unknown, Ancients tech.

Odin

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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:35:19 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative character creation system...

Odin Sveinsson wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
>         How is this for a different start up character system.
> Provide players with a pool of points to build character
> stats and skills/levels. The players decide what stats they
> want and what skills with corresponding levels they also want.
> Then as long as they have the needed amount of Character Creation
> points, then they can build that character.
>         In my game this means that players have to really think
> about what matters to them and what is more important. This makes
> them think about their choices and work together in character
> creation and it also helps to form a better team environment.
> People decide what type of career their character really is
> following, and build a workable one. Also the group each builds
> a character that specializes in a specific set of jobs and also
> they build in some lap-over jobs as well.
>         I also use a system for the design of the groups start-up
> ship. The team gets a certain pool of Building points where they
> spend them to buy a specific hull type, and then the various
> systems that the ship will have. This give the players to tailor
> their ship for the type of missions and etc that they want to do.

This may be a radical idea, but you could just have one pool for ALL
characters and the ship. Then the players can haggle with each other to
gain more points for themselves.  But it does make a certain amount of
socioeconomic sense.  Presuming somebody is willing to pay to have some
mission done, they have a set amount that they can pay.  Then you just
go about all the applicants until you can put together a team in your
pay range. Kinda like an NFL team.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:20:54 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Alternative character creation system...

Odin Sveinsson wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
>         How is this for a different start up character system.
> Provide players with a pool of points to build character
> stats and skills/levels.

I had a similar system for a while.  I let the players roll their career
normally, and them they got to buy the skill they wanted off any of the
charts that were open to them that year/term.  I kept the feeling of the
Traveller generation system there, but still gave the players control
over their character.

- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 10:38:27 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Alternative character creation system...

Hello there,

	I tried that idea as well, but I found that players didn't
build the ship then. They would create supper characters and just
hire themselves out as a team. I'd then have to provide them with a
ship anyway. So I made it two separate pools of points.

	Also in my game I give experience points and players cash
them in to build up their characters and the team gets team points
that allow them to pool towards adding to or upgrading their ship
or other stuff. The group got to decide how the team points were
spent.

	This system allowed me to keep a group together of seven
different players for over seven years. The game only stopped because
I got married, changed jobs, moved, and my son was born within a 
1.25 period of time. Plus I was tired of GMing and wanted to take a
rest and just play for a while.

	After twenty-four years of playing Traveller and GMing for
most of it that past system along with that group of players was
pretty darn good. I am very sad to say that more than half have moved
away, and all the rest have married, had children, bought that first
house, and have very time intense jobs. They like me don't have the
time to play any more.
	
	I'm only lucky that my son is now old enough, and the rest
of my situation is set so I can start to game again on a regular
basis again.  Well I guess it is back to the same old gaming rules
that I have come up with, now to find the correct player base<g>!

Odin



 This may be a radical idea, but you could just have one pool for ALL
>characters and the ship. Then the players can haggle with each other to
>gain more points for themselves.  But it does make a certain amount of
>socioeconomic sense.  Presuming somebody is willing to pay to have some
>mission done, they have a set amount that they can pay.  Then you just
>go about all the applicants until you can put together a team in your
>pay range. Kinda like an NFL team.
>
>


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 09:56:42 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: TCS rule lookup request

Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com wrote:
> 
> Hiya Folks,
>      I don't have TCS with me in Boston. If there is someone on the list
> with it to hand can they check two items for me?
>      I seem to recall that there was a figure mentioned of how many tons of
> starship different classes of ports could build at any one time.

High Guard:Starship Design:Page 20:
Availability: Starships (with jump drives) may be constructed at the
shipyard of any class A starport; non-starships (without jump drives)
may be constructed at the shipyard of any class A or class B starport.
 
>      Second, somewhere in High Guard is given a figure of how many weeks it
> takes to build a starship relative to the size of it. I need that figure.

Construction Times: Ship's of 5,000 tons or less can be completed in 36
months or less by any competent shipyard. Ships over 5,000 tons require
from 24 to 60 months to complete, based on conditions, volume of orders,
and the degree of haste desired by the ordering government.

Hope this helps.

Jim
>      You can probably see where I'm going. I want to solve the age old
> problem of just how many starships are out there. If we know the above two
> figures, and add to that a guess of "how long a starship is servicable
> for", apply it to the combined data of the Imperium I have from Galactic I
> should be able to state how many tons of shipping exist within the Imperium
> at any time.
>      Please reply by private e-mail. I'll post whatever analisys I do to
> the list.
>      Cheers,
>           Jo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:12:44 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: UWP question

Heyo,

I am currently working on a visual basic program to automate system and world
development.  The problem I have run into in interpreting the PGB numbers
(Population multiplier, Gas Giants, Planetoid Belts).  I know the Population
Multiplier applies to the mainworld, but do the Gas Giant and Planetoid Belt
numbers only apply to the main system, or the entire system.

Specifically, if you have a UWP that specifies a PGB of 422 (pop mult. of 4, 2
Gas Giants, 2 Planetoid Belts) in a system with a Primary and a Compainion, are
both Gas Giants and Planetoid Belts found in the Primary system, or are they
distributed between both?

My current interpretation is to distribute the Gas Giants/Planetoid Belts
between all systems - but I'd like to get a broader interpretation if possible.

FYI - I'm using the MT system and WBH for system/planet development.

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 11:32:31 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: UWP question

Doug,

	I believe you current interpretation is correct, however 
always remember if it doesn't look right, fell right to you then
use the old GM's creative nature and do as you please anyway<g>!

Odin

>My current interpretation is to distribute the Gas Giants/Planetoid 
Belts
>between all systems - but I'd like to get a broader interpretation if 
possible.
>
>FYI - I'm using the MT system and WBH for system/planet development.
>
>douglas
>
>-- 


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:50:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: Investment in Traveller

On Sun, 10 May 1998, Steve Rennell wrote:

> I'm told that often large insurance companies will take out 
> sub-insurance policies with other insurance companies for 
> Very Large policys.

The second richest man in America is in this businiess, amongst
others.  For an interesting a well written discussion, check out the
annual reports by Warren Buffett at www.berkshirehathaway.com...

The reinsurance business would be a natural for any of the Imperial
megacorp specializing in banking and investment.  Little things like
the Virus could very well end the megacorp, since they would exposed
everywhere...

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:26:29 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Profitable Starships

[I sent this as private email by mistake when I meant it to 
go to the list...]

Steve Rennell writes:
> >But If I expect to make a return of 5% off owning the ship...

Jo Grant Replies:
> Your figures are skewed because I'm already including most of that in my
> profit calculations. 

Yep, fair cop. You got me there, however, I still think 
that my ROI calculations are not included in your setup. I 
suspect that I should do something more complicated where I 
consider the investment as the initial 20% and figure out 
the increase in capital vs the costs of interest, (Not to 
mention the decrease in capital for depreciation of the 
ship, which I take to be about 2% per year.)

> I was giving examples of how _individuals_ owning
> ships could make a profit. A large factor is the mortgage involved.

True to a point. The individuals still have to make up 
their minds if the return is adequate on their investment, 
as I mention above. When I get some time I'll think about 
that some more.

> Megacorporations owning ships require rather different calculations. They
> aren't paying a mortgage, they are gaining a return on their investment.

Everyone is seeking a return on investment. If after 40 
years you've paid off you ship completely, including 150% 
in interest, and your ship is now worth 20% - 25% of what it used 
to be due to wearing out, then is it worth your while if 
you're only making enough to cover payments and costs? You 
haven't increased your capital much at all for 40 years of 
effort.

> The third column on my spreadsheet gives breakeven figures for running
> without paying a mortgage, those are much, much, more favourable. I just
> didn't quote them because they weren't relevant to a discussion on
> individual trading ships.

For my purposes those would be interesting, but I can 
probably figure them myself. Although, I'd tend to charge 
more for port costs (In New Zealand at the moment it costs 
$20,000 per week to berth a ship at port. (In Sydney it's 
$40,000 Australian (about $50K NZ). I'm not sure about how 
long you have in berth.

About twelve years ago when I worked briefly for a wool 
packing plant, it cost NZ$17,000 to ship a standard shipping
container to Europe. (That's why they spent big money 
packing wool bales, they could double the number of bales 
that went into a container). which is about 3.5 DispT, I 
think (though it weighed about 6 tons (plus container).
 

> First, though, I have a hypothesis that I wish to prove. Basically, that
> jump-1 ships are the most viable ships for facilitiating trading along a
> main. 

I believe you are correct as long as you assume that every 
system on the main is worth going to. If you had only every 
second system worth going to, then things might be 
different.

> >I mean, even if a jump 1 is fixed at 1000 Cr/ton, why is a
> >jump 2 exactly the same price?

> My hypothesis is that less than 1% of trade is at anything higher than
> jump-1 because you can't service your demands any better by using higher
> jump capactity ships. But I'm not going to argue it till I can present some
> data.

I'd expect it to be more like 20%, but that's OTTOMH. 
Again, I think your supposition might hold true if you 
assume that almost every J1 trip is worth making,

Think about NZ Lamb for instance. By the time we get it to
market in Europe, about 50% of the cost is shipping, and
we still undercut the local producers. It is still
profitable for us to ship stuff they can make in Europe to
Europe for 50% transport costs. I think trade is a lot
more robust than people think.

Steve

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 13:41:00 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: OK who knows this...

Hello Folks,

	I'm looking for the documents from the H.I.W.G (history
of the Imperium Working Group). I use to be the Verge sector analyst
and I'd like to find some of those articles. My articles were all
on the Ancients and their sites within the Verge sector.
	
	Also has anyone heard what became of the Traveller PBM game
that was sold by the creators to one guy in L.A. and then another
guy bought it and then is fell off the face of the earth! Is it
running again, and if so does anyone have the contact info for me?

Odin

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------------------------------

Date: 12 May 1998 17:17 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches

Disclaimer: I don't have any Traveller books which 
discuss the Imperium's overall economic policy.

The Traveller books plainly state that the Imperium is
at the limits of governability -- the distances from Core
to the edges are straining the 3I's ability to rule.

The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
a large degree.

Well then, where do you think tax distributions go?  How
are they doled out to the worlds, if at all?  I don't have
much material on how the Imperium is taxed; I assume that
since the people here on Earth are so hard to tax, that
a single interstellar government must have a pretty hard
time policing 11,000 worlds, 15 trillion people.

Alright, let me get down to the point.  How much money
does Tureded have to play with?  If the Imperium doesn't
have the desire to manage every little world, then why
would it give these worlds much money?  Are member worlds
taxed, or is there just some kind of trade + authority +
protection pact going on here?

Tureded: an up-and-coming world, an Ag world between two
major worlds -- Regina and Rhylanor (and Inthe, if you care).
It's still minor league, but it's growing.  Currently, it
has 4 'C' starports, equidistant along the equator.

Suppose Tureded wants to buy System Defense Boats.  The price
list might go like this:

System Defense Boats
	Cost (MCr)-------------------------------------------
disp	hull	m-4	weapons	power		approx. total
200t	10	50	50	50		MCr150
400t	20	100	100	75		MCr300
600t	30	150	150	100		MCr450
800t	40	200	200	125		MCr550
1000t	50	250	250	150		MCr700

	Yearly costs (MCr)----------------------------------
disp	Loan	Mtc	LS	Salaries	approx total
200	7.5	.15	.25	.1		MCr8
400	15	.3	.5	.2		MCr16
600	22.5	.45	.75	.3		MCr24
800	27.5	.6	1	.4		MCr30
1000	35	.75	1.25	.5		MCr38

I assume the defensive budget is distributed from the general
budget, which may receive income from tarriffs, taxes, the
local subsector government, and perhaps the Imperial government.

Now it's time for some guesstimating.  The yearly salary of
the average Tureded worker is Cr5,000.  There are 600,000 people
living there.  Tureded's law level is 0.  No taxes?
Assumption:

	Tax % = 5 + law level * 5.

So we have MCr150 to play with.  How much goes to defense?

	Def % = 5 + law level * 5.

So we have MCr7.5 per year toward defense.  You can just forget
about getting any SDBs.

Now enter the Third Imperium.  It takes 10% of the tax revenue
from Tureded (MCr15) and gives back what?  Probably a stop on 
a patrol route.  Why spend more, when it's only getting MCr15?
Moreover, who is going to get super rich exploiting such a
small world?  And who wants to make the effort?  Unless the
world is tactically or economically significant, there's no
reason to fill it up with ships.

A patrol route, by the way, could be well worth the 10% tax
charged by the Imperium.  A system getting 1000 tons of anti-
pirate action every few months could be sufficient deterrent
to keep the corruption levels reasonably low.  I assume that
0% corruption and 100% efficiency will never exist, and the
numbers may be more like 10% corruption and 70% efficiency.

Now enter alternate possibilities.  A 40-year-old SDB isn't
what Core wants to patrol its sector with; but it might be
just the thing for a marginal Spinward world.  Payments made
on an old but maintained 200t SDB would be only MCr4 per year,
which might well be affordable by a small world.


Now let's take Regina, UWP A788899-C, Rich and Subsector Capital.
Not only does she have SDB's, she has a Naval base which I take
to mean patrols all the time, for free.  How nice!

	Tax % = 5 + 9 * 5, or 50%.  Ouch, very steep.

Assuming the average salary is Cr10,000, and we have 700,000,000
people, then we have a budget of

	MCr 3500000, or
	BCr 3500, or
        3.5 Trillion Credits.

With a military budget of half that, or 1.75 Trillion Credits.
If you think that's high, then trim taxes down to 25%... you still
get TCr 1.75 budget, BCr 875 defense!  Wow!

Ok, for BCr875 we can buy a trillion credit squadron, or a buncha
SDBs.  Let's buy 1000-ton SDBs:

	875 000 000 000 / 700 000 000

Heck, Regina can BUY WITH CASH one thousand 1000-ton SDBs each year
if she so chooses.  This just doesn't seem "right" to me, but I
can't see how the numbers are wrong... that's 1 million tons of
ship built each year -- maybe shipyard capacity is a factor here,
since the rule is 1000 people per dT constructed, giving a 
theoretical ceiling of 700,000 dT.  That's still 700 SDBs max built 
locally per year in Regina (of course, real capacity may well be
less than half of that, but still, 100 SDBs per year is formidable).

Rob

IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:30:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

Hmmm,

dunno about traveller stuff, but do you hike?

- -Merrick
(in Albuquerque, NM)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:54:54 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

IIRC, Striker had a set of charts that gave a estimation of the GDP of a
world, and from there you could figure out the budget for defense spending
as well as total tax revenue.

Kurt


At 05:17 PM 5/12/98 EDT, you wrote:
>Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches
>
>Disclaimer: I don't have any Traveller books which 
>discuss the Imperium's overall economic policy.
>
>The Traveller books plainly state that the Imperium is
>at the limits of governability -- the distances from Core
>to the edges are straining the 3I's ability to rule.
>
>The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
>toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
>individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
>a large degree.
>
>Well then, where do you think tax distributions go?  How
>are they doled out to the worlds, if at all?  I don't have
>much material on how the Imperium is taxed; I assume that
>since the people here on Earth are so hard to tax, that
>a single interstellar government must have a pretty hard
>time policing 11,000 worlds, 15 trillion people.
>
>Alright, let me get down to the point.  How much money
>does Tureded have to play with?  If the Imperium doesn't
>have the desire to manage every little world, then why
>would it give these worlds much money?  Are member worlds
>taxed, or is there just some kind of trade + authority +
>protection pact going on here?
>
>Tureded: an up-and-coming world, an Ag world between two
>major worlds -- Regina and Rhylanor (and Inthe, if you care).
>It's still minor league, but it's growing.  Currently, it
>has 4 'C' starports, equidistant along the equator.
>
>Suppose Tureded wants to buy System Defense Boats.  The price
>list might go like this:
>
>System Defense Boats
>	Cost (MCr)-------------------------------------------
>disp	hull	m-4	weapons	power		approx. total
>200t	10	50	50	50		MCr150
>400t	20	100	100	75		MCr300
>600t	30	150	150	100		MCr450
>800t	40	200	200	125		MCr550
>1000t	50	250	250	150		MCr700
>
>	Yearly costs (MCr)----------------------------------
>disp	Loan	Mtc	LS	Salaries	approx total
>200	7.5	.15	.25	.1		MCr8
>400	15	.3	.5	.2		MCr16
>600	22.5	.45	.75	.3		MCr24
>800	27.5	.6	1	.4		MCr30
>1000	35	.75	1.25	.5		MCr38
>
>I assume the defensive budget is distributed from the general
>budget, which may receive income from tarriffs, taxes, the
>local subsector government, and perhaps the Imperial government.
>
>Now it's time for some guesstimating.  The yearly salary of
>the average Tureded worker is Cr5,000.  There are 600,000 people
>living there.  Tureded's law level is 0.  No taxes?
>Assumption:
>
>	Tax % = 5 + law level * 5.
>
>So we have MCr150 to play with.  How much goes to defense?
>
>	Def % = 5 + law level * 5.
>
>So we have MCr7.5 per year toward defense.  You can just forget
>about getting any SDBs.
>
>Now enter the Third Imperium.  It takes 10% of the tax revenue
>from Tureded (MCr15) and gives back what?  Probably a stop on 
>a patrol route.  Why spend more, when it's only getting MCr15?
>Moreover, who is going to get super rich exploiting such a
>small world?  And who wants to make the effort?  Unless the
>world is tactically or economically significant, there's no
>reason to fill it up with ships.
>
>A patrol route, by the way, could be well worth the 10% tax
>charged by the Imperium.  A system getting 1000 tons of anti-
>pirate action every few months could be sufficient deterrent
>to keep the corruption levels reasonably low.  I assume that
>0% corruption and 100% efficiency will never exist, and the
>numbers may be more like 10% corruption and 70% efficiency.
>
>Now enter alternate possibilities.  A 40-year-old SDB isn't
>what Core wants to patrol its sector with; but it might be
>just the thing for a marginal Spinward world.  Payments made
>on an old but maintained 200t SDB would be only MCr4 per year,
>which might well be affordable by a small world.
>
>
>Now let's take Regina, UWP A788899-C, Rich and Subsector Capital.
>Not only does she have SDB's, she has a Naval base which I take
>to mean patrols all the time, for free.  How nice!
>
>	Tax % = 5 + 9 * 5, or 50%.  Ouch, very steep.
>
>Assuming the average salary is Cr10,000, and we have 700,000,000
>people, then we have a budget of
>
>	MCr 3500000, or
>	BCr 3500, or
>        3.5 Trillion Credits.
>
>With a military budget of half that, or 1.75 Trillion Credits.
>If you think that's high, then trim taxes down to 25%... you still
>get TCr 1.75 budget, BCr 875 defense!  Wow!
>
>Ok, for BCr875 we can buy a trillion credit squadron, or a buncha
>SDBs.  Let's buy 1000-ton SDBs:
>
>	875 000 000 000 / 700 000 000
>
>Heck, Regina can BUY WITH CASH one thousand 1000-ton SDBs each year
>if she so chooses.  This just doesn't seem "right" to me, but I
>can't see how the numbers are wrong... that's 1 million tons of
>ship built each year -- maybe shipyard capacity is a factor here,
>since the rule is 1000 people per dT constructed, giving a 
>theoretical ceiling of 700,000 dT.  That's still 700 SDBs max built 
>locally per year in Regina (of course, real capacity may well be
>less than half of that, but still, 100 SDBs per year is formidable).
>
>Rob
>
>IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
>

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #481
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 12 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 482



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New Mexico
Re: Drop tank glitch?
Re: Relative Prices
RE: Drop tank glitch?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #480
Re: New Mexico
Re:  Alternative Character Generation
TCS rule lookup
Finances in the Imperium

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 16:05:11 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

 
> In Traveller-digest V1998 #479, Alan Peery <peery@io.com> writes:
> 
> > My geography may be lacking(so check a large-scale map :-)), but the
> > first things I'd look at visiting out in the region are Sandia and Los
> > Alamos National Labs. 
> 
> Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
> a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
> have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
> "Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
> Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.
 
The lab is spread all around town. You can look from the outside of
buildings, but the only place you can go in without knowing somebody
is the Bradbury Science Museum--kind of a vistior facility.

> I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.
 
Sandia is on Kirtland AFB. The National Atomic Museum is there if
you wish to look at old bombs.

The VLA is worth the 2.5 hour drive from Albuquerque, though...

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:14:49 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?

Keven Pittsinger wrote:

> I *also* treat external dismountable tanks as *hulls*, since they have to be 
> more durable.  YMMV.

After Steven Hudson mentioned TCS had some detailed rules on optional fuel
tankage, I went and had a look at the "original intent" of the various 
types of tanks.  

One clear comment:  "Enough fuel for the power plant must be carried in
normal fuel tanks."

Collapsible tanks were bladders installed in the cargo hold.  They took up
only as much space as the fuel in them, but you could only use them for
storage.  Before jumping, the fuel had to be pumped into regular tankage
(about three hours).  When empty, they took up 1% of their displacement
when full.  Install at any A or B starport in one week at Cr 500/ton.

Demountable tanks came in two types, interior and exterior.  These tanks
take up their full displacement no matter how much fuel is in them, but
you could jump with the fuel in the extra tankage without transferring it.
Tanks could be built in 10 weeks at any A or B starport for Cr 1000/ton.
The crew could then install it themselves anywhere in two weeks, or a
professional crew could be hired for Cr 10/ton of tank to install it in
one week at any A-D starport.  Interior tanks take up cargo room.  For
exterior tanks, you pay another Cr 500/ton for exterior tank supports,
and the ship is unstreamlined as long as they're installed, and it adds
to the ship's displacement.

Drop tanks could also be built in 10 weeks at an A or B starport for 
Cr 1000/ton.  Tank supports cost a flat fee of Cr 10000 at time of
construction, or Cr 1000/ton of tank as an add-on.  Once built, the
tank is installed in minutes.  Streamlining is unaffected!  Whether
they can be refurbished and remounted is unclear.  Drop tanks are 
exterior tanks, and add to displacement.

All exterior tanks are unarmored and fragile.  TCS handled this in a
very simple way:  "Whenever a battle damage die-roll, unmodified by
armor, would produce a fuel hit, all exterior or drop tanks are 
destroyed."  In other words, if on that last hit, by ignoring your
ship's armor bonuses you'd have gotten a fuel hit, the tanks are gone
in addition to other effects.

I could find no reference to storable internal demountable tanks (the 
ones that fold up when demounted) until FF&S.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:17:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Rupert Boleyn wrote:

> At 03:09 AM 11/05/98 -0500, Eris wrote:
>
> >6 pack of beer  $6.99

> Yes, thanks. I think I'll have to immigrate - your utility & Petroleum
> prices are so low, though your beer is expensive (assuming you're talking
> about cans).

For $7 it would be bottles of import or high-quality beer.  $7 will get you
at least 12 of the swill, and a case of some the really bad stuff.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:18:14 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: RE: Drop tank glitch?

> Hans Rancke-Madsen posted:
>
>Do the tanks need any treatment before they are ready to be used again?
>
>A requirement that the tanks be brought back to a shipyard and have
minor
>repairs done on them would make them a lot less profitable, but is that
a
>realistic, or at least a not-TOO-implausible requirement?
>
>Any thought? Opinions?

One thought. Assumption: fuel can be kept at a slurry/liquid in a
hull-protected internal fuel tank using ship's power. Since a drop
tank's
external surface is exposed to direct starlight, how much more difficult
would it be to maintain fuel storage temperature with the tank surface
area being exposed to solar radiation? After all, solar heat is the main
reason the U.S. space shuttle and astronaut EVA suits are stark white.

Any tank-contained cooling system would probably need to be
replenished/refurbished after each use. Depending on the system, this
process could take *days* after the tank is transported to the replenish
site.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:23:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

David J. Golden wrote:

> At 04:06 pm 5/11/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> BTW what percentage alcohol do US beers run to?

>        Depends on the area and where you buy it. Utah nothing stronger than
> 3.2% is allowed; likewise in Colorado grocery stores may only sell
> 3.2 beer--real stuff is restricted to liquor stores (and not
> available on Sunday). A friend of mine brewed a batch of 10+%
> recently ...

Thats true for many of the midwest and bible belt states.  Its a shame too,
because I just cannot get a buzz from 3.2% beer.  I know that in Oklahoma, you
can get the better stuff in the liquor store but only warm.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 18:27:09 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> And let's not even discuss that Cranberry Lambic stuff.  They finally
> dumped a lot of it by marketing a "Winter Gift Pack" with eight bottles of
> four different types of Sam Adams, including the Cranberry, then marking it
> down to less then a six-pack.
>
> Funny thing is, a friend convinced me to try it on tap (at the "Sam Adams
> Brew Pub" - living in Boston has it's advantages) and it wasn't half bad.

Have you tried the Raspberry Wheat Sam Adams?
It tastes like Crunchberry Cereal, one of the Captain Crunch flavors.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:30:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

>Date: 12 May 1998 17:17 EDT
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: 
>
>Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches
>
>Disclaimer: I don't have any Traveller books which 
>discuss the Imperium's overall economic policy.
>

G'day Robert. Welcome to the list.

One resource I think you need is 'Pocket Empires', which discusses all this
stuff.

>The Traveller books plainly state that the Imperium is
>at the limits of governability -- the distances from Core
>to the edges are straining the 3I's ability to rule.
>

Sort of. One of the key features of the 3I in my view is that it doesnt try
to rule - it just keeps the space between the stars free and enforces a
couple of basic rules.

>The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
>toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
>individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
>a large degree.

True

>Tureded: an up-and-coming world, an Ag world between two
>major worlds -- Regina and Rhylanor (and Inthe, if you care).
>It's still minor league, but it's growing.  Currently, it
>has 4 'C' starports, equidistant along the equator.
>
>Suppose Tureded wants to buy System Defense Boats.  The price
>list might go like this:
>
>System Defense Boats
>	Cost (MCr)-------------------------------------------
>disp	hull	m-4	weapons	power		approx. total
>200t	10	50	50	50		MCr150
>400t	20	100	100	75		MCr300
>600t	30	150	150	100		MCr450
>800t	40	200	200	125		MCr550
>1000t	50	250	250	150		MCr700
>
>	Yearly costs (MCr)----------------------------------
>disp	Loan	Mtc	LS	Salaries	approx total
>200	7.5	.15	.25	.1		MCr8
>400	15	.3	.5	.2		MCr16
>600	22.5	.45	.75	.3		MCr24
>800	27.5	.6	1	.4		MCr30
>1000	35	.75	1.25	.5		MCr38
>
>I assume the defensive budget is distributed from the general
>budget, which may receive income from tarriffs, taxes, the
>local subsector government, and perhaps the Imperial government.
>
>Now it's time for some guesstimating.  The yearly salary of
>the average Tureded worker is Cr5,000.  There are 600,000 people
>living there.  Tureded's law level is 0.  No taxes?
>Assumption:
>
>	Tax % = 5 + law level * 5.
>
>So we have MCr150 to play with.  How much goes to defense?
>

Fair enough.

>	Def % = 5 + law level * 5.

I'm not sure about linking defense specding to law level. I'd be more
inclined to say 3% at peace, 6% outside the frontier or 9% if in a cold war.

>
>So we have MCr7.5 per year toward defense.  You can just forget
>about getting any SDBs.

Sort of. Greg Svennson built a TL12 13 dton Light Fighter that had a
sticker price of MCr 22 or so. It was decent - pulled about 4 gees, had OK
sensors and a 250 megajoule laser on it. Tureded could probably afford
three of them, giving it a minimal space defense capability.

>
>Now enter the Third Imperium.  It takes 10% of the tax revenue
>from Tureded (MCr15) and gives back what?  Probably a stop on 
>a patrol route.  Why spend more, when it's only getting MCr15?
>Moreover, who is going to get super rich exploiting such a
>small world?  And who wants to make the effort?  Unless the
>world is tactically or economically significant, there's no
>reason to fill it up with ships.
>

Except for the fact that pirates could use it as a base to prey on
neighbouring worlds, if they manage to knock over the existing, undefended
world.

>Now enter alternate possibilities.  A 40-year-old SDB isn't
>what Core wants to patrol its sector with; but it might be
>just the thing for a marginal Spinward world.  Payments made
>on an old but maintained 200t SDB would be only MCr4 per year,
>which might well be affordable by a small world.
>

If you have an official policy of non-intervention, some Duke in Core might
'adopt' a planet, and have his 'pleasure yacht' take a cruise by there, and
launch a 'hunting expidition' (with local bearers and guides, of course)
there. 

>
>Now let's take Regina, UWP A788899-C, Rich and Subsector Capital.
>Not only does she have SDB's, she has a Naval base which I take
>to mean patrols all the time, for free.  How nice!
>
>	Tax % = 5 + 9 * 5, or 50%.  Ouch, very steep.
>
>Assuming the average salary is Cr10,000, and we have 700,000,000
>people, then we have a budget of
>
>	MCr 3500000, or
>	BCr 3500, or
>        3.5 Trillion Credits.
>
>With a military budget of half that, or 1.75 Trillion Credits.
>If you think that's high, then trim taxes down to 25%... you still
>get TCr 1.75 budget, BCr 875 defense!  Wow!
>
>Ok, for BCr875 we can buy a trillion credit squadron, or a buncha
>SDBs.  Let's buy 1000-ton SDBs:
>
>	875 000 000 000 / 700 000 000
>
>Heck, Regina can BUY WITH CASH one thousand 1000-ton SDBs each year
>if she so chooses.  This just doesn't seem "right" to me, but I
>can't see how the numbers are wrong... that's 1 million tons of
>ship built each year -- maybe shipyard capacity is a factor here,
>since the rule is 1000 people per dT constructed, giving a 
>theoretical ceiling of 700,000 dT.  That's still 700 SDBs max built 
>locally per year in Regina (of course, real capacity may well be
>less than half of that, but still, 100 SDBs per year is formidable).
>

Big worlds dominate the Traveller universe. The scary bit is that Regina
isnt big - it's only pop code 8, and it's technology is nothing to write
home about either. Do the numbers for, say, Trin.

What becomes likely is that Regina can station a squadron of SDBs on
Turedeed (with local government consent), in order to protect Regina-ownded
starships from piracy.

>Rob
>
>IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:30:30 -0600 (MDT)
>From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
>Subject: Re: New Mexico
>
>Hmmm,
>
>dunno about traveller stuff, but do you hike?
>
>- -Merrick
>(in Albuquerque, NM)
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 17:54:54 -0400
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
>
>IIRC, Striker had a set of charts that gave a estimation of the GDP of a
>world, and from there you could figure out the budget for defense spending
>as well as total tax revenue.
>
>Kurt
>
>
>At 05:17 PM 5/12/98 EDT, you wrote:
>>Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches
>>
>>Disclaimer: I don't have any Traveller books which 
>>discuss the Imperium's overall economic policy.
>>
>>The Traveller books plainly state that the Imperium is
>>at the limits of governability -- the distances from Core
>>to the edges are straining the 3I's ability to rule.
>>
>>The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
>>toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
>>individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
>>a large degree.
>>
>>Well then, where do you think tax distributions go?  How
>>are they doled out to the worlds, if at all?  I don't have
>>much material on how the Imperium is taxed; I assume that
>>since the people here on Earth are so hard to tax, that
>>a single interstellar government must have a pretty hard
>>time policing 11,000 worlds, 15 trillion people.
>>
>>Alright, let me get down to the point.  How much money
>>does Tureded have to play with?  If the Imperium doesn't
>>have the desire to manage every little world, then why
>>would it give these worlds much money?  Are member worlds
>>taxed, or is there just some kind of trade + authority +
>>protection pact going on here?
>>
>>Tureded: an up-and-coming world, an Ag world between two
>>major worlds -- Regina and Rhylanor (and Inthe, if you care).
>>It's still minor league, but it's growing.  Currently, it
>>has 4 'C' starports, equidistant along the equator.
>>
>>Suppose Tureded wants to buy System Defense Boats.  The price
>>list might go like this:
>>
>>System Defense Boats
>>	Cost (MCr)-------------------------------------------
>>disp	hull	m-4	weapons	power		approx. total
>>200t	10	50	50	50		MCr150
>>400t	20	100	100	75		MCr300
>>600t	30	150	150	100		MCr450
>>800t	40	200	200	125		MCr550
>>1000t	50	250	250	150		MCr700
>>
>>	Yearly costs (MCr)----------------------------------
>>disp	Loan	Mtc	LS	Salaries	approx total
>>200	7.5	.15	.25	.1		MCr8
>>400	15	.3	.5	.2		MCr16
>>600	22.5	.45	.75	.3		MCr24
>>800	27.5	.6	1	.4		MCr30
>>1000	35	.75	1.25	.5		MCr38
>>
>>I assume the defensive budget is distributed from the general
>>budget, which may receive income from tarriffs, taxes, the
>>local subsector government, and perhaps the Imperial government.
>>
>>Now it's time for some guesstimating.  The yearly salary of
>>the average Tureded worker is Cr5,000.  There are 600,000 people
>>living there.  Tureded's law level is 0.  No taxes?
>>Assumption:
>>
>>	Tax % = 5 + law level * 5.
>>
>>So we have MCr150 to play with.  How much goes to defense?
>>
>>	Def % = 5 + law level * 5.
>>
>>So we have MCr7.5 per year toward defense.  You can just forget
>>about getting any SDBs.
>>
>>Now enter the Third Imperium.  It takes 10% of the tax revenue
>>from Tureded (MCr15) and gives back what?  Probably a stop on 
>>a patrol route.  Why spend more, when it's only getting MCr15?
>>Moreover, who is going to get super rich exploiting such a
>>small world?  And who wants to make the effort?  Unless the
>>world is tactically or economically significant, there's no
>>reason to fill it up with ships.
>>
>>A patrol route, by the way, could be well worth the 10% tax
>>charged by the Imperium.  A system getting 1000 tons of anti-
>>pirate action every few months could be sufficient deterrent
>>to keep the corruption levels reasonably low.  I assume that
>>0% corruption and 100% efficiency will never exist, and the
>>numbers may be more like 10% corruption and 70% efficiency.
>>
>>Now enter alternate possibilities.  A 40-year-old SDB isn't
>>what Core wants to patrol its sector with; but it might be
>>just the thing for a marginal Spinward world.  Payments made
>>on an old but maintained 200t SDB would be only MCr4 per year,
>>which might well be affordable by a small world.
>>
>>
>>Now let's take Regina, UWP A788899-C, Rich and Subsector Capital.
>>Not only does she have SDB's, she has a Naval base which I take
>>to mean patrols all the time, for free.  How nice!
>>
>>	Tax % = 5 + 9 * 5, or 50%.  Ouch, very steep.
>>
>>Assuming the average salary is Cr10,000, and we have 700,000,000
>>people, then we have a budget of
>>
>>	MCr 3500000, or
>>	BCr 3500, or
>>        3.5 Trillion Credits.
>>
>>With a military budget of half that, or 1.75 Trillion Credits.
>>If you think that's high, then trim taxes down to 25%... you still
>>get TCr 1.75 budget, BCr 875 defense!  Wow!
>>
>>Ok, for BCr875 we can buy a trillion credit squadron, or a buncha
>>SDBs.  Let's buy 1000-ton SDBs:
>>
>>	875 000 000 000 / 700 000 000
>>
>>Heck, Regina can BUY WITH CASH one thousand 1000-ton SDBs each year
>>if she so chooses.  This just doesn't seem "right" to me, but I
>>can't see how the numbers are wrong... that's 1 million tons of
>>ship built each year -- maybe shipyard capacity is a factor here,
>>since the rule is 1000 people per dT constructed, giving a 
>>theoretical ceiling of 700,000 dT.  That's still 700 SDBs max built 
>>locally per year in Regina (of course, real capacity may well be
>>less than half of that, but still, 100 SDBs per year is formidable).
>>
>>Rob
>>
>>IMTU tc+ t4+ ge-() 3i(+) jt a ls+ va- so- zh vi da+
>>
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>
>We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
>habit.
>- --- Aristotle ---
>
>mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1998 #481
>**********************************
>
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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 08:38:44
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1998 #480

>Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 14:42:47 +0100
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
>Subject: TCS rule lookup request
>
>     You can probably see where I'm going. I want to solve the age old
>problem of just how many starships are out there. If we know the above two
>figures, and add to that a guess of "how long a starship is servicable
>for", apply it to the combined data of the Imperium I have from Galactic I
>should be able to state how many tons of shipping exist within the Imperium
>at any time.
>     Please reply by private e-mail. I'll post whatever analisys I do to
>the list.
>     Cheers,
>          Jo

In my view, this will answer the question 'How much civilian shipping could
the Imperium build, if it had to' rather than the question 'How much
civilian shipping does the Imperium build normally'.

The analogy I'd use is shipbuilding in Britain between 1939 and 1945, which
was far higher than normal - in fact, they pretty much built as much as
they could build. Taking those numbers and applying them will give make the
British merchant marine far larger than it actually was.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 15:45:34 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: New Mexico

>Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
>a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
>have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
>"Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
>Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.
>I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.

Are they really that grim? Here at LLNL we have a visitors center with some
(admittedly boring) exhibits. I know LANL has a slightly different culture
from a security standpoint but didn't realize it was quite that severe.

Does WSMR have a visitors center? 

There are tours of the Trinity site every few months or perhaps once a year,
but I suspect you've already missed this year's window.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 20:32:25 +0000
From: "Pearson Publishing" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re:  Alternative Character Generation

>  How is this for a different start up character system.
> Provide players with a pool of points to build character
> stats and skills/levels. The players decide what stats they
> want and what skills with corresponding levels they also want.
> Then as long as they have the needed amount of Character Creation
> points, then they can build that character.
>  In my game this means that players have to really think
> about what matters to them and what is more important. This makes


This is a lot like the systems other games use (GURPS, Champions).  In
my recent T4 game, I had the characters generate the characters based
on the T4 rules (rolling for admission, successful completion of their
terms, promotions, etc.), however .... 

To create their physical attributes, 12 dice were rolled 
simultaneously.  Then, the player could pair these off to create the
type of character they wanted (or as close as they could get).  This
allowed them to match a couple of 6s together to get a really strong
character, but often led to a character weaker in another attribute.

Also, players were allowed to pick both the table and the skill they
wanted for each year in service.   Additionally, they could change
careers when they wanted.  I applied a -1 DM for the admission roll on
the first change, a -2 DM on the second and so forth.  

This seemed to work well and my players got to create characters that
they really wanted, while still maintaining the Traveller character
generation "feel."  

I also give experience points as per the T4 rules.  Usual 1 or 2 per
game. 
James Pearson
jdpearson@wr.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 21:38:55 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: TCS rule lookup

Jo_Grant wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    I don't have TCS with me in Boston. If there is someone on the list
with it to hand can they check two items for me?
     I seem to recall that there was a figure mentioned of how many tons of
starship different classes of ports could build at any one time.
     Second, somewhere in High Guard is given a figure of how many weeks it
takes to build a starship relative to the size of it. I need that figure.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From p31 of TCS:

C=P x GM/1000

C is Shipyard Capacity in tons
P is population of the World (people, not population factor)
GM is Current Government Budget Percentage Modifier, from the following:

Type:  0    1      2    3     4      5      8     9      A     B     C      D
Peace .5   .8   1.0  .9   .85    .95   1.1   1.15  1.2  1.1   1.2    .75
War   1.5  1.4  1.5  1.2  1.45 1.4    1.2  1.2    1.5   1.2   1.5   1.5

Type 6 governments use the modifier of the government controlling
them, type 7 governments use the modifier of whatever 
government controls the shipyard.

HOWEVER: Due to this capacity being related to whether the
government is at war or not, IMO this capacity refers to 
military shipbuilding facilities only. How this relates to 
merchant shipbuilding is difficult to determine, as it 
would vary for each government type and economic
condition.

From page 33 of TCS:
Construction Time Table
Tons..................Weeks
50 or less...........24
80......................32
100....................40
200....................48
400....................64
600....................96
800....................112
1000...................120
5000...................144
10000..................160
20000..................174
50000..................192
100000................208
200000................224
500000................232
1000000..............240

"For tonnages other than those given on the table,
the referee should round to the nearest number or
interpolate."

Speeding up construction:
Class: If ship is not the first ship in it's class, +40%
If double yard capacity is assigned: +40%
Every extra 10% of weekly construction cost
paid: +10%

Total all modifiers above, maximum +100%, for
each week of construction - for example,
if +30% applies, each week counts as 
1.3 weeks.

It may be that the class modifier for speeding
up construction only applies if at least one ship
of that class has been built in that shipyard, as
the modifier is due to construction crews becoming
familiar with the class - p20 of High Guard supports
this.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 11 May 1998 22:45:28 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Finances in the Imperium

I was looking through Challenge #54 and ran across the following
TNS entry. Thought I'd throw it into the Imperium Finances pot
and see what bubbled up. Interesting to note the use of
*incredibly* accurate forecasting algorithms...

'TNS Begins'

VAWARD/OLD EXPANSES      Date: 151-1122
  Concern mounted in financial markets here today as the
headquarters analysts of Hortalez et Cie announced that
earnings had declined by 12% during calendar year 1121.
  While much of this assessment is based on algorithmic
projections (actual reports often taking years to reach
HeC's headquarters here on Vaward), market experts were
forced to concede that this estimate was probably
accurate to within 0.1%.
  When asked to speculate on what had caused this sudden
downturn, the experts almost universally cited Hortalez's
massive asset trade with the four Vilani megacorporations
which had been concluded on 090-1121.
  Although the trade had been conducted and conceptualized
with a great public show of amity, anonymous spokespersons
from Zirunkarish now speculate that Hortalez et Cie "had
little faith in the long-term viability of markets within
the Ziru Sirkaa -- a common mistake amongst financiers with
decidedly Solomani mindsets."
  When asked to comment on these various speculations, HeC
Senior Adminstrator Nils Petersen suggested, "People should
watch a little more closely and patiently, and speculate a
little less. From our (Hortalez et Cie's) standpoint,
everything is proceeding right on schedule and just as we
expected."
  Petersen declined to make any further statement that might
shed light on his enigmatic comments.

'TNS Ends'

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #482
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 483



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Drop tank glitch? 
Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Drop tank glitch?
Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
Re: Hijacking
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Early Vilani Cuisine
Re: New Mexico
Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:51:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch? 

> Keven Pittsinger wrote:
> 
> > I *also* treat external dismountable tanks as *hulls*, since they have to be 
> > more durable.  YMMV.
> 
> After Steven Hudson mentioned TCS had some detailed rules on optional fuel
> tankage, I went and had a look at the "original intent" of the various 
> types of tanks.  
> 
> One clear comment:  "Enough fuel for the power plant must be carried in
> normal fuel tanks."

This goes without saying.  And it *IS* in the rules someplace.  And I've 
mentioned it before, too.
 
> I could find no reference to storable internal demountable tanks (the 
> ones that fold up when demounted) until FF&S.

The Traveller Adventure had a subplot of the crew of March Harrier obtaining 
demountable tanks installed in the cargo hold of the ship.  This was to allow 
the ship to get off the Aramis Trace.  These tanks took up 50 DT space and 
were *NOT* collapsable tanks!!!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 06:03:11 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

Scientifically accurate, it is not.

Nuff said.



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:17:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?

Hello,
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?
...
>BINGO! I've always disliked the rule that droptanks can't be reused because
>I felt that it must be possible to use a decoupling system that didn't ruin
>the tank. But I completely failed to realize the implication of drop tanks
>being som much cheaper than interior fuel tankage. Obviously drop tanks are
>of much more flimsy construction. So much so that they aren't safe to
>reuse. I propose the following rule:
>
>	If a drop tank is reused there is a risk of a malfunction.
>	Roll 2D. On a 13+ something goes wrong. DM: +1 per previous
>	use. Being carried along on a jump is the equivalent of one
>	use.

  That works for T4, and for drop-tanks in general. For High Guard
(which is admittedly geared towards warships rather than merchants)
the avoidance of the MCr 0.1 hull cost by using exterior demountable
tanks is still a broken design rule.

>REUSABLE DROP TANKS
...
>station at the jump limit. A crew of trained operators go out and mount
>drop tanks on the ship. How long does that take?

  Both attachment and recovery timetables might be best avoided
(in the real-world equivalent business sense) by simply warehousing
more tanks, attaching beforehand, and reconditioning them in time
provided by the spare stocks. Running three shifts 7/24 will be more
efficient (theoretically; in space, no one can hear you slacking off)
than worrying about angry customers, penalties, and O/T, D/T.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:18:44 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

Hello,
>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>Subject: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work
>
>Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches
...
>The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
>toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
>individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
>a large degree.

  Well, it's decentralised; Regina is presumably more responsible
than Capital for most "minor" matters.

...
>a single interstellar government must have a pretty hard
>time policing 11,000 worlds, 15 trillion people.

  Taxing imports and exports is currently the favoured policy
in countries with poor enforcement infrastructures, as it's
about the only thing easy enough to be within their capabilities.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 12 May 1998 23:41:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking

Hello,
>From: ringrose@ascent.com
>Subject: Re: Hijacking
>
>If you assume rampant corruption in certain areas, it is possible to
>steal and sell ships.

  Agreed.

>a. Hijackers make arrangements with a representative of a shady
>deep-space salvage operator.

  A good idea, especially if they wait a while (year or two?) to 
make it look a little less conspicuous. However, I think most of
the current discussion is in the context of jumping straight from
a 100-d limit refuelling (/drop tank regime) station, where taking
control of the ship before it's in jumpspace is effectively
impossible.

>b. Hijackers steal ship [just take it for granted, for the moment,
>that this is possible], space the crew or use their bodies in step c.

  I'd be _really_ surprised if it weren't possible.

>f. Company realizes that if they start investigating, the ship will
>simply get sold to someone else, vastly increasing their losses to
>this activity, and decide to cut their losses.

  What if the company buys back their ship and then passes their
suspicions on to the relevant authorities?

...
>What makes this possible is the fact that even the fraction of the
>ship's value which you get from selling the ship to the company is
>large enough to bribe a lot of people, pretty well.

  Yes, but a lot of the enforcement authorities are going to be very
difficult (if not impossible) to bribe. OTOH, piracy or the ship
disposal aspect of hijacking flows much more smoothly with a strategic
sanctuary (well, systematic piracy is probably suicidal without one).

  Also, if the pay-off is great enough there's real question as to 
why the hijack team (the most highly skilled and vulnerable players
here) would continue to play attrition roulette.

  Some adventures include coverage of what inspired corruption can
achieve, including the old WD "Sable Rose Affair".

>e'. Ship moves on (it cannot afford to stay indefinately).  Hijackers
>get a slap on the wrist.

  Come to think of it, that scenario is about a raid to collect evidence
to close down the pirate sympathizers in the planetary government...

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:27:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Hello,
>From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
...
>>   In fact, wouldn't an insurer (or the Captain, or the local officer
>> of the ships finance company) routinely send a message ahead while
>> the ship acquires cargo and passengers to its announced destination?
>> If so, failure to stop and unload the requisite passengers and cargo
>> (or simply failure by the Captain to debark and check in) would be
>> such an obvious red flag that successful hijacking of a ship so
>> protected would be ridiculously difficult.
>> 
>This presupposes that there is sufficient traffic to permit advance
>notice to be sent. If that particular pair of systems is served by enough
>traffic to permit this, then hijacking is less likely to be productive.
>On the other hand, if it is not feasible (due to low traffic levels) to
>send advance word, this assumption fails to hold.

  Yep. But by definition the majority of traffic will be through high
traffic systems, which presumably have many mail deliveries each day.
Certainly all regularly scheduled runs are covered, as can be any ship
that takes long enough to get a cargo, or plans far enough ahead (by
fluke in this case), or gets lucky with outgoing scheduling.

  It certainly combines to make hijacking of any but the most 
marginal of tramp freighters wildly impracticable.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 03:15:09 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

At 06:03 AM 5/13/98 GMT, you wrote:
>Scientifically accurate, it is not.
>
>Nuff said.

Neither was Star Wars, but it didn't stop that from being entertaining.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 00:59:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks in the 12th Century

In mail you write:

>> It really wouldn't be worthwhile to compress hydrogen to liquid.
>> Cheaper & easier to just cool it down & liquefy it.

> Umm... just how easy is it to chill something to near absolute zero?  
> Especially without something to dump the heat into?  Note that ships
> with purification plants apparently do this often.  Skim gas giant at
> a temperature significantly higher than zero K (Gas Giants tend to
> radiate energy).  Process the fuel in space with no heat sink.  The
> only way I can see doing it is by compressing the gas into a liquid.

Not possible. Gases have a "critical temperature" (different for each
gas). Above that temp, *no* amount of pressure will liquefy the gas.
The critical temp for hydrogen is pretty damn low. Probably around 100K
(I don't have references handy).

And the ships *do* have a heat sink. It's called "empty space". They
have to *radiate* the heat away. 

Standard method of liquefying gases with low boiling points is to
compress it, which heats the gas. You cool the compressed gas, and let
it expand thru a nozzle (which cools the gas). You circulated the
cooled gas back to cool the compressed gas. Several cycles of this gets
the gas cold enough to liquefy (I've simplified the process). Each
"compression" stage is cooled by expanding gas from the next stage. 

You still have deal with getting rid of the heat from the other stages
in various ways.

Or, if you've got plenty of time, anything exposed to "empty space" and
insulated from the heat the shiup is radiating will eventually wind up
at 3K. Hydrogen liquefies at 20k. So simply pumping hydrogen thru a
properly designed radiator panel will get you LH2. It'll just take a
while. 

That's also how you keep the tanks cold. Lots of insulation, and a
steady trickle thru a radiator to chill stuff down to well below 20K.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:49:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

>         I want to reply to this with some facts but I need to do a little
> research.  The first thing I need to know is where you got this formula
> and what it is for, exactly.  I got my old fluid mechanics book out and
> found formulas for drag on various shaped bodies but didn't see this one.
> None of the numbers they got in the book seemed very high.
>
>>Also, check out what the forces exerted by wind are. Even a "measly" 30
>>mph exerts *tremendous* pressures over large areas. Here's the formulas:
>>
>>P = 0.5 D V^2 cos^2 A,
>>
>>P = Pressure, N/m^2 (multiply by 0.000146 for psi)
>>
>>D = Density, kg/m^3 (=1.225 for sea-level air on Earth)
>>
>>V = Velocity, m/s (multiply by 2.24 for miles per hour)
>>
>>A = Angle from perpendicular

This was from a discussion in rec.arts.sf.science about wind pressure.

>>And remember that by the very fact that you are trying to keep your
>>airspeed low, you *can't* avoid bad weather which is approaching faster
>>than you can run away.
>>
>>You may not be *able* to avoid turbulence or bad weather. After all,
>>since your ship isn't *designed* to operate in atmosphere, it won't be
>>equipped with the sensors need to spot things like clear air
>>turbulence. Which can hit you with 50-100 mph winds.
>
> I've driven a full-sized full-length van (the kind that seats 15) at
> 80 mph in high cross-winds (say 30 mph) which were gusting and quite
> unpredictable.  I had no problem staying on the ground and in my lane,
> though I did have to correct for the gusts.

30 mph is not a "high" crosswind. 

> Also, keep in mind my assumptions:
>
> 1.  The ship has a generous thrust to weight ratio (significantly over
> 1 G).  If it doesn't, then you could have problems.
>
> 2.  The ship has maneuvering thrusters capable of nontrivial thrust
> (ie that can roll the ship and rotate it around various axii) and
> which are in balanced pairs.

Ah! But they are balanced around the center of *gravity* (aka center of
mass) of the ship. In free space, you want thrusts balanced around this
point.

But wind forces will be balanced around the center of pressure which
*must* be in a quite different location (otherwise the ship would be
airframe or streamlined, etc).

This mismatch of thrust and sterring forces to the wind forces is what
will cause trouble.

> 3.  The ship is not an open frame, dispersed structure but is some
> relatively compact shape like a sphere or a rectuangular solid or
> a tight cluster of these.  This means more like a space shuttle or
> free trader type body as opposed to a bunch of pods connected by
> struts with things sticking out all over the place.

Remember, we are talking about a ship of a hull type that the rules say
*isn't* allowed to land (I forget the exact names other than
"streamlined" and "airframe"). And that pretty much means that there is
*something* about the shape that makes it unstable in the presence of
wind forces. 

And other folks are even talking about trying this with "open frame"
ships. 

There are *lots* of shapes that meet your criteria, but that combined
with various mass distributions inside the hull, will make the ship[
wildly unstable in any sort of wind. 

What matters is the relationship between the center of mass and the
center of pressure as well as the direction the ship is moving. For
stability, you want the CP *behind* the CG by at least a couple of body
diameters. In that configuration, the ship will actually self correct
any deflecting forces.

If the CP and CG are in the same place, the ship will have no inherent
stability, and any deflection will be unopposed. 

If the CP is *ahead* of the CG, the ship will have *negative*
stability. Any deflecting force will be *amplified* by the ship, and if
under power, it will try its damndest to tumble wildly (due to the
relative airflow cause by the thrust combined with the actual airflow).

And since the thrusters are paired around the CG, their restoring
forces won't match the deflecting forces. 

> These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
> an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
> the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
> flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
> but not strong enough to survive very high winds.

Sorry, but both dirigibles and helicopters *do* take CG/CP into
account. They are either airframe or that other clas I can't recal the
name of that is also allowed to enter atmospheres.

They are both aerodynamically stable (though the copter requires a
thrust to counter the torque of the main rotor).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:36:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

In mail you write:

> Beer has followed humans throughout history, wherever they go.  Egyptians
> codified beer brewing practices on their buildings and temples, Ancient
> Celts, Romans, Greeks, Aztecs, all brewed this special stuff.  Pilgrims on
> the way to Plymouth Rock almost panicked when the beer appeared to be
> running out.  It is only natural that beer followed humans to the stars.
>
> Some special cargos;
>
> 12 Tons of Genetically Engineered TL12 Brewers yeast
> 24 tons of premium mutant five-row barley
> 8 tons of specialty "Pixie Mountain" hops
> 100 tons of Beer. (Keep the crew out of the cargo bay).
>
> Don't forget that it is customary and wise for the prospective cargo buyer
> to get a sample of the goods being sold to them. :)

Have that crew with the 100 tons of beer get their drive knocked out,
and be on a collision course with something, say an asteroid. They'll
be fine if they could only apply a few m/s of delta-V. Will they
realize that the beer can provide the required thrust if they kluge up
some plumbing and a proper exhaust nozzle?

At least two SF writers (Poul Anderson and A. Bertram Chandler) have
used this gag. It's also the subject of a Trek related filk song.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:43:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisine

In mail you write:

>> Not having yeasts means either: a) no beer or wine, or any alcoholic
>> beverages or b) having a perfectly viable substitute, in which case you
>> get leavened bread somewhere along the line, _particularly_ if you're
>> brewing beer or wine in the vicinity.
>     I'd agree, however having the Ancients introducing yeast to the Vilani
> environment really doesn't make much sense.  My thought was some local
> equivalent that, while mildly poisonous if still active when ingested, I'm
> making the assumption that full brewing creates enough alcohol to kill off 
> the
> native vilani equivalent off.  The stuff floats to the top and can be skimmed
> off leaving a potable, if alcoholic, drink. ;)

That's what ends fermentation here on earth. The alcohol level gets
high enough to kill the yeasts (unless there isn't enough sugar for
them to get that far).

>> Are the critters in fermentation (yeast) related to the critters in our
>> digestive system that keep us alive by aiding our digestion of otherwise
>> undigestible things (bacteria - e. coli and such)?  If there is no
>> bacterial life, humans would have a hard time living, but just because
>> some bacterial life exists doesn't mean that specifically yeast does.
>     Nope e. coli would have been carried in the guts of the humans brought to
> Viland and would have been dropped into the local water supplies with the 
> first
> shit they took. ;) I kid you not!  But to the best of my knowledge e. coli
> isn't a fermenting bacteria.

No, but the "yeast" in "yeast infection" *is*. And that *could* get
carried by people easily enough.

For that matter, if the tribe Grandfather grabbed was from an area
where a lot of natural yeasts were floating around (say it was fall and
lots of fermenting fruit on the ground), the spores *could* get carried
along on people's bodies or hair.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 02:08:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New Mexico

In mail you write:

> In Traveller-digest V1998 #479, Alan Peery <peery@io.com> writes:
>
>> My geography may be lacking(so check a large-scale map :-)), but the
>> first things I'd look at visiting out in the region are Sandia and Los
>> Alamos National Labs. 
>
> Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
> a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
> have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
> "Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
> Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.
>
> I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.

On the other hand, there's a junkyard where LANL sends scrap from
projects. You can find the *damndest* things there. Chunks of exotic
metals, remains of instrumentation. All sorts of stuff. 

I'd be tempted to drop by and ask if they've got any lanthanum. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:23:14 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller * Your Tax Dollars at Work

At 11:18 PM 12/05/98 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:

>  Taxing imports and exports is currently the favoured policy
>in countries with poor enforcement infrastructures, as it's
>about the only thing easy enough to be within their capabilities.

If you look at medieval taxation it becomes apparent that taxes on goods
moving across boundries (city walls, rivers, national borders, etc) have
always been popular for this reason.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 07:50:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

On Wed, 13 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>Also, check out what the forces exerted by wind are. Even a "measly" 30
> >>mph exerts *tremendous* pressures over large areas. Here's the formulas:
> >>
> >>P = 0.5 D V^2 cos^2 A,
> >>
> >>P = Pressure, N/m^2 (multiply by 0.000146 for psi)
> >>
> >>D = Density, kg/m^3 (=1.225 for sea-level air on Earth)
> >>
> >>V = Velocity, m/s (multiply by 2.24 for miles per hour)
> >>
> >>A = Angle from perpendicular
> 
> This was from a discussion in rec.arts.sf.science about wind pressure.

That may explain why I couldn't find it in any fluid mechanics book,
then.  I generally don't trust usenet as a reference without double-checking.

> > I've driven a full-sized full-length van (the kind that seats 15) at
> > 80 mph in high cross-winds (say 30 mph) which were gusting and quite
> > unpredictable.  I had no problem staying on the ground and in my lane,
> > though I did have to correct for the gusts.
> 
> 30 mph is not a "high" crosswind. 

No, but the van was experiencing winds ranging from 80 mph to 85 mph
with the direction varying quickly.

> > Also, keep in mind my assumptions:
> >
> > 1.  The ship has a generous thrust to weight ratio (significantly over
> > 1 G).  If it doesn't, then you could have problems.
> >
> > 2.  The ship has maneuvering thrusters capable of nontrivial thrust
> > (ie that can roll the ship and rotate it around various axii) and
> > which are in balanced pairs.
> 
> Ah! But they are balanced around the center of *gravity* (aka center of
> mass) of the ship. In free space, you want thrusts balanced around this
> point.

Yes, but since they can vary their thrust, one can thrust more than
another to account for any unbalance.  Also, any rolling is going to
be about the center of gravity anyway, so the thrusters will be able
to counter i

> But wind forces will be balanced around the center of pressure which
> *must* be in a quite different location (otherwise the ship would be
> airframe or streamlined, etc).

If the ship is a cube and the center of gravity is in the center of
the cube then it will be in the same place as the center of pressure
since the whole thing is symmetrical and there's no way for anything
to be uneven.  Does Traveller define cubes as "unstreamlined"?

> > 3.  The ship is not an open frame, dispersed structure but is some
> > relatively compact shape like a sphere or a rectuangular solid or
> > a tight cluster of these.  This means more like a space shuttle or
> > free trader type body as opposed to a bunch of pods connected by
> > struts with things sticking out all over the place.
> 
> Remember, we are talking about a ship of a hull type that the rules say
> *isn't* allowed to land (I forget the exact names other than
> "streamlined" and "airframe"). And that pretty much means that there is
> *something* about the shape that makes it unstable in the presence of
> wind forces. 

Maybe this is the problem... I'm going with more general definitions
of "unstreamlined".  If "streamlined" means capable of entering an
atmosphere and operating with a reasonable chance of survival then that
would include a lot of ships which wouldn't be considered "streamlined"
by the ordinary definition of the word.

> And other folks are even talking about trying this with "open frame"
> ships. 

This would be a bad idea, I agree.  In addition to all the other
problems you'd have, you'd have wind rushing through your ship.

> There are *lots* of shapes that meet your criteria, but that combined
> with various mass distributions inside the hull, will make the ship[
> wildly unstable in any sort of wind. 

My assumption is that most ships will keep the center of mass near the
geometric center since it's much easier to build such a ship and the
maneuvering thrusters would probably make this assumption.  I would
cheerfully apply penalties to maneuver a ship with the center of mass
very far off from the geometric center in atmosphere *or* in space.

> What matters is the relationship between the center of mass and the
> center of pressure as well as the direction the ship is moving. For
> stability, you want the CP *behind* the CG by at least a couple of body
> diameters. In that configuration, the ship will actually self correct
> any deflecting forces.
> 
> If the CP and CG are in the same place, the ship will have no inherent
> stability, and any deflection will be unopposed. 
> 
> If the CP is *ahead* of the CG, the ship will have *negative*
> stability. Any deflecting force will be *amplified* by the ship, and if
> under power, it will try its damndest to tumble wildly (due to the
> relative airflow cause by the thrust combined with the actual airflow).
> 
> And since the thrusters are paired around the CG, their restoring
> forces won't match the deflecting forces. 

All of the above discussion seems to imply that the ship is moving
pretty fast.  Maybe if you define "center of pressure" in technical
terms that would help me.  You can send me a private email if you
think that that's not of general interest to the list.

> > These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
> > an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
> > the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
> > flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
> > but not strong enough to survive very high winds.
> 
> Sorry, but both dirigibles and helicopters *do* take CG/CP into
> account. They are either airframe or that other clas I can't recal the
> name of that is also allowed to enter atmospheres.
> 
> They are both aerodynamically stable (though the copter requires a
> thrust to counter the torque of the main rotor).

You haven't commented on my analysis of the magnitude of forces.  To
me, that's pretty telling... the forces were so low as to not cause
any problem at all even if they are unbalanced.  Do you disagree with
my comments?  The inertia of most ships will be enough that forces
of the magnitude you described will cause it to wiggle a bit but
not enough to throw it out of control.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:26:55 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

What did they screw up?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:32:12 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

I would guess that it has something to do with the restrictive gun laws.
Demand hasn't decreased, and the limited supply has driven up costs. This
suits gun control advocates as the more expensive weapons get, the less likely
that the masses will be able to afford them. BTW the ultimate in hypocrisy
(assuming that this data I read is true...), when Sen. Fienstein (very anti
gun) was the mayor of San Francisco, she was one of only 7 concealed carry
hangun permit holders in the city.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:33:56 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

I always new New Yorkers and San Franciscans had something in common besides
good Chinese Food and big ass Suspension bridges- our mutual hatred of LA and
Hollywierd!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:39:41 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

I bet that the Kiwis pay their teachers proportionally better per capita, then
we do...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #483
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 484



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Relative Prices
Re: Traveller * Your tax dollar at work
Re: Drop tank glitch?
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) 
Total Ships in the Imperium
Lanthanum (was RE: New Mexico)
Re: Hijacking summation
Traveller GearHead WebRing
Re: Drop tank glitch? 
Ultra-small Thrust-Plate Grav Fighter?
Total Ships in the Imperium - comments
Re: Profitable Starships
Total Ships in Imperium - spreadsheet
OK who knows this... II
Re: UWP question
Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: UWP question 
Re: OK who knows this... II 
Re: OK who knows this... II
Re: Drop Tanks / External Tanks Limitations
Re: OK who knows this... II
Re: New Mexico and National Labs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:49:00 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

That's why they invented lockable shipping containers. It makes pilfering a
LOT harder. To steal, you have to take the entire container (can be done via
creative bookeeping), or break into the container which is too obvious.
Containers have cut down on theft big time. PS: "wiseguy" theft killed NYC as
a major seaport. That's why the major container port is over in Elizabeth, NJ.

OB. Traveller: a nugget: merchant, police, rogue, bureacrat and navy
characters all are at cross purposes. They all have different goals. The most
dramatic of which can be different rival systems gaining or losing business
because of theft, and/or corruption.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:06:40 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller * Your tax dollar at work

Robert Eaglestone writes:
>Classic Traveller: Taxes and Defense in the Spinward Marches
> 
>Disclaimer: I don't have any Traveller books which 
>discuss the Imperium's overall economic policy.

OK. With the caveat that I don't have the books with me and _may_ possibly
be mixing in my own interpretations, here is what I remember of what few
rules there are:

According to _Trillion Credit Squadron_ each world has an annual budget
for the fleet alone of Cr500/citizen. Army budget is not mentioned. Note
that TCS deal with pocket empires and that analogies to the Imperium may
or may not be valid. 

According to _Striker_, military budget ranges from 1 to 15%, with 1%
being after a _looong_ period of peace and 15% was full scale war. The
average was, IIRC, 3% for the peacetime Imperium. Of this money 30%
goes to the Imperium, who lets the subsector forces keep half and use
the other half for its regular fleets. Its unclear if the Scouts are
paid out of the this or whether their budget comes from elsewhere 
(They may even be earning their own upkeep for all we know). IMO the
Imperial Army and Marines also comes out of the 15% but the percentage
is small (6%). Of the remaining 70%, 40% (ie. 28% of the total) is used
for the planetary army if the main world has a breathable atmosphere,
otherwise only 6% (4.2% of the total) goes to the army. The remainder
is used for system defenses. How much of that, if anything, goes to
jump-capable ships, how much to system defense boats, and how much to
fixed defense is not defined.  
 
>The books then imply that government is a bit lax, especially
>toward the fringes; another implication, then, is that 
>individual worlds may be left to fend for themselves to
>a large degree.

The two-tier fleet system implies that the subsector fleets are available
for defense of the subsector's systems unless transferred somewhere else,
something that seems only to happen in a full-scale war.

>Well then, where do you think tax distributions go?  How
>are they doled out to the worlds, if at all?  I don't have
>much material on how the Imperium is taxed; I assume that
>since the people here on Earth are so hard to tax, that
>a single interstellar government must have a pretty hard
>time policing 11,000 worlds, 15 trillion people.

The Imperium dosen't tax people, it taxes worlds based on the size of
their population. Collecting the loot is the planetary government's 
problem.
 
>Alright, let me get down to the point.  How much money does Tureded have
>to play with?

Tureded: 2414 C465540-9/6. 600,000 inhabitants. Tax base: 6,000,000,000
local credits. 3% of that = 180 MCr. 70% of that = 126 MCr. Less 40% for
the army leaves MCr75.6.

According to the quick system used in TCS, Tureded could support MCr756
worth of navy ships. This would cover all expenses, including crew,
logistics, ground support, pensions, and replacement of worn-out ships
(but not repairs and replacement of shot-up ships). However, this only
applies if Tureded builds and maintains the boats themselves. Which is
not allowed by TCS rules, but is allowed by Book 2 (or is it High Guard). 

If Tureded has to buy the boats or ships elsewhere, their credits will
have to be converted into local credits for the world that builds the
vessels and will buy less (Though the vessels they buy will fight much
better).

>Now enter the Third Imperium.  It takes 10% of the tax revenue
>from Tureded (MCr15) and gives back what?  Probably a stop on 
>a patrol route.  Why spend more, when it's only getting MCr15?

Why did the British fight for the Falkland Islands? That surely wasn't
cost-effective.

>Now let's take Regina, UWP A788899-C, Rich and Subsector Capital.
>Not only does she have SDB's, she has a Naval base which I take
>to mean patrols all the time, for free.  How nice!
> 
> 	Tax % = 5 + 9 * 5, or 50%.  Ouch, very steep.

Tax base: 7,000,000,000,000 local credits. 3% of that = 210,000 MCr. Less
30% for the Imperium = 147,000 MCr. Less 40% for the army = 88,200 MCr.
For a system defense fleet worth 882,000 MCr.

>Heck, Regina can BUY WITH CASH one thousand 1000-ton SDBs each year
>if she so chooses.  This just doesn't seem "right" to me, but I
>can't see how the numbers are wrong...

25% of total production is quite a lot. We're talking extermination war
level expenditures...

[Kurt Feltenberger replied with three lines and quoted 128 lines. Please
trim your replies, Kurt. Although not always applicable, it is a good
rule of thumb to try to have your reply fill more than what you quote.]


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:16:03 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?

Steven Bonneville writes:

>Collapsible tanks were bladders installed in the cargo hold.  They took up
>only as much space as the fuel in them, but you could only use them for
>storage.  Before jumping, the fuel had to be pumped into regular tankage
>(about three hours). 

If it takes three hours to pump fuel from collapsible tanks into the
regular tanks, then obviously they can't be used directly. But that really
begs the question. WHY does it take so much longer to pump fuel from a
collapsible tank than from a rigid tank?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:17:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) 

> What did they screw up?

Well, a water impact is a LOT worse than a land impact.  You hit in the ocean, 
the ocean keeps trying to come back in and cover the hole and gets boiled away 
some more, throwing *megatons* of water into the atmosphere.

At least they didn't try to say that it would throw radiation all over the 
place...

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:23:46 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Total Ships in the Imperium

Greetings!
     First, big thanks to those who replied to me by e-mail with the TCS
rule I was looking for. [Thanks also to those who replied to the list but I
would also ask that, in future, you honour my stated request and send it to
me personally so as not to waste bandwidth.]
     The bulk of the analysis below comes from Christopher Thrash
(thrash@io.com) who applied it to the Islands Cluster. I do not agree with
all of his assumptions but I consider the bulk of them valid. In any event
I'm including the base number so any of you can apply your own pet theories
and see where they take you. [If I'm missing any numbers you need, let me
know and I'll send them on privately.] One should assume any deficiencies
in the analysis are mine, not his!


Summated values for the whole Imperium:
                              Number of worlds:                    7935
                             Total Population :      12,903,285,535,532
Peacetime Naval Revenue (TCS, Starport A only):  $1,596,550,999,319,370
     Total Shipyard Capacity (Starport A only):          32,959,453,188t


Using a logarithmic model based on the required construction time for the
number of ships at each tonnage class, you come up with 5000 tons (144
weeks/2.8 years) as a mean value.

Assume the following:
40 year lifespan for ships (based on mortgage period) = 2.5% per year * 2.8
years to build = 7%
Annual maintenance = 2% of total tonnage
New builds and unscheduled maintenance = 1% of total tonnage

Therefore, the total fleet tonnage (merchant and naval) = Capacity / 10% =
Capacity * 10.

To separate naval from commercial tonnage is more complicated:  Average the
per-ton costs of all the ships in Supplements 7 - Traders and Gunboats -
and 9 - Fighting Ships, to come up with the following figures.

Naval Vessels: Cr 500,000 per ton.
Armed Merchants:    Cr 250,000 per ton.
Unarmed Merchants:  Cr 200,000 per ton.

Using TCS rules you can calculate the naval budget.  Multiply this by 10 to
get total value of ships in commission; divide by Cr 500,000 to get tons.
Subtract naval tonnage from the total to get merchant tonnage.

NavBudget * 10 / MCr 0.5 = total tons of naval fleet

Total tonnage - naval tonnage = commercial tonnage

Once again using average values from Traders and Gunboats, merchant ships
are about 50% cargo (counting staterooms and low berths by their volume).

commercial tonnage * 50% = cargo capacity

cargo capacity * 25 jumps per year / 52 weeks per year = cargo carried per
week.

So, applying the above, the totals are:

    Total Ship Tonnage in service :  329,594,531,883t
   Total Naval Tonnage in service :   31,931,019,986t
Total Merchant Tonnage in service :  297,663,511,896t
    Hold capacity of the Imperium :  148,831,755,948t
           Cargo shipped per week :   71,553,728,821t
     Avg Cargo per world per week :        9,933,964t
   Avg Cargo per citizen per year :                0.29t

Commentary follows in a separate mail...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:26:09 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: Lanthanum (was RE: New Mexico)

On Wednesday, 13 May 1998 05:08, shadow@krypton.rain.com
[SMTP:shadow@krypton.rain.com] wrote:
> On the other hand, there's a junkyard where LANL sends scrap from
> projects. You can find the *damndest* things there. Chunks of exotic
> metals, remains of instrumentation. All sorts of stuff. 
> 
> I'd be tempted to drop by and ask if they've got any lanthanum. :-)

Here are some suppliers for lanthanum I got off the web:

from Stanford Materials Company
http://www.stanfordmaterials.com/la.html:
Lanthanum Metal     Purity: 99%      50kg lot      US$23.75/kg
La-Rich Rare Earth Carbonates - Purity ~60%     1MT lot
US$2300/MT

from Haiku Trading Company Catalog
http://www.t-link.net/~htc/RareEarth.html
Lanthanum Metal     Purity: 99%      US$ - Inquire at htc@t-link.net


Also, I found this listing of uses for lanthanum at 
http://www2.shef.ac.uk/~chem/web-elements/nofr-uses/La.html.
Notice use number 4.

1) rare-earth compounds containing lanthanum are extensively used in
carbon lighting applications, especially by the motion picture industry
for studio lighting and projection 
2) 203La improves the alkali resistance of glass, and is used in making
special optical glasses 
3) small amounts as an additive are used to produce nodular cast iron 
4) hydrogen sponge alloys containing lanthanum reversibly take up to 400
times their own volume of hydrogen gas. Heat is released, therefore
these alloys have potential in energy conservation systems 
5) lighter flints 
6) alloys 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:30:27 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation

Steven Hudson writes:
>  Yep. But by definition the majority of traffic will be through high
>traffic systems, which presumably have many mail deliveries each day.
>Certainly all regularly scheduled runs are covered, as can be any ship
>that takes long enough to get a cargo, or plans far enough ahead (by
>fluke in this case), or gets lucky with outgoing scheduling.
> 
>  It certainly combines to make hijacking of any but the most 
>marginal of tramp freighters wildly impracticable.

Certainly no hijacker can know ahead of time whether his ship will arrive
two days before or two days after another ship that left at the same time.
If the route has a few ships per day going to the same destination, his
odds goes way down.

Still, hijackers have much better chances of actually taking over a ship
than pirates (Provided they can manage to smuggle weapons onboard. And can
get control of the ship's computer... if not they are just riding a
floating coffin on a rendevouz with Authorities With Big Guns). All in
all I think hijackers are bucking a severely stacked deck, but at least
not as stacked as the one pirates are up against.

Just my opinion, of course.

[Ducking and putting on the asbestos suit ;-)]




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:30:10 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Traveller GearHead WebRing

There is a webring just for the Gearheads now.  You can find it at 

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/gearheadring.html

It has about a half dozen sites.  If you have a page of custom designs, any
Traveller design system, feel free to join.   Sites with design tools are also
welcome. 
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:34:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch? 

> Steven Bonneville writes:
> 
> >Collapsible tanks were bladders installed in the cargo hold.  They took up
> >only as much space as the fuel in them, but you could only use them for
> >storage.  Before jumping, the fuel had to be pumped into regular tankage
> >(about three hours). 
> 
> If it takes three hours to pump fuel from collapsible tanks into the
> regular tanks, then obviously they can't be used directly. But that really
> begs the question. WHY does it take so much longer to pump fuel from a
> collapsible tank than from a rigid tank?

Ever empty a waterbed?  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 1998 11:31 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Ultra-small Thrust-Plate Grav Fighter?

For all you folks with Central Supply Catalog:

Has anyone modified the TL12 Grav Fighter?  I was wondering
what it would be like if it were updated with TL14 or TL15
equipment, given thrust plates instead of contragrav, and
(of course) given a TL15 Fusion+ drive big enough to power
the tplates?  Can this be done in 4 tons?  How much thrust
should be sacrificed to keep this a really fast and nastie
beastie?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:42:48 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Total Ships in the Imperium - comments

>Total Ship Tonnage in service :  329,594,531,883t
That seems an awful lot! But it works out as only .026t per citizen. I
wonder how the amount of shipping in the modern worlds compares.

>Total Naval Tonnage in service :   31,931,019,986t
>Total Merchant Tonnage in service :  297,663,511,896t
It is interesting, but it turns out that the proportion of naval ships to
merchant ships is about 1:10, exactly what I herd proffered as the ideal
escort:trader ratio.

>Hold capacity of the Imperium :  148,831,755,948t
Hmmm, who was calculating interest lost while goods were in transit? It
would be interesting to turn the above into how much a 1-week jump transit
is costing the Imperium. Imagine if even a fraction of that was spent
researching instantaneous travel?

>Avg Cargo per world per week :        9,933,964t
This tends to support the view that the bulk of trading is done by mammoth
supertankers on fixed contracts. And that the tables in the books only
reflect the leftovers that tramp freighters can scavenge. The normal
supertanker I tend to design carries 100,000t of cargo. The above implies
that nearly 100 of these pass through a week. Jeeez. Maybe I should start
assuming that a supertanker carries 1,000,000t of cargo. That's 10 per week
split amongst the various megacorps. That makes a bit more sense.
Backwaters will obviously see less traffic, nodes will see more.

>Avg Cargo per citizen per year :                0.29t
This is interesting, not so much for relating to the impact of shipping on
the individual, but more as giving a baseline for working out how much
cargo a world produces/consumes per year. Just multiple the pop by 0.29.


Now my assessment of the assumptions behind the calculations is that they
are a bit on the conservative side. Peacetime budget is used. The TCS
capacity figures are assumed to apply to both commercial and naval
shipping. The 40% discount for repeat ships is not applied. And a 40 year
life span is assumed [this is my biggest beef, like my car is going to fall
apart once the 3 year lease is up?]. But, since adjusting any of these will
just increase the results, and the figures are already staggeringly large,
I'm happy to consider these numbers a _minimum_.

Another implicit assumption is that all shipyards are working to full
capacity. This may seem unrealistic, but having lived with news stories of
the various shipyards of Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland agonizing
about closing it seems the average present shipyard either has its books
full, or it just plain closes down and goes out of business. Maintenance
and a 1% fudge factor built in as well. Now, you may say "but what about
all the _spaceships_", i.e. the non-jump ships. A valid point. But there
are still scads and scads of B starports that aren't figured into the
above.

On the cargo side, there is another assumption being made that all cargo
holds are full. This may seem optimistic. My knee-jerk reaction is to
assume that they run on 50% capacity. But, looking another way, why ship
empty space? _Anything_ you are going to make _any_ profit on looks good if
the alternative is transporting air.

More thoughts as they surface...

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:00:47 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Profitable Starships

Hi to the list. (I hope I am not covering old ground).

Another point to consider when calculating ROI on personally owned
starships is that the starship is your home too. You, and your crew, are
avoiding living expenses (and taxation?) on an expensive high TL world.
Unless of course you maintain homes as well (How many PCs do that?). If
you were maintaining standard business accounts you would have to
exclude the personal usage from your accounts. This would make ship
accounts look much more profitable. 

This would lead me to expect that personally owned starships are likely
to be quite often Family businesses with family partnerships
(Husband/Wife, Brothers/Sisters, in-laws, etc.). The partners would have
no fixed planetary home.  This keeps profits in the Family and leads to
strong commitment from all family crew members. Are there any
interesting examples of family owned ships out there?

This leads naturally on to:

Do the traveller books mention anywhere the effects of bringing up a
family on a starship? Does jump-space, artificial gravity or any other
ship-board field do anything to the growing process? Is it safe to be
pregnant in jump space or to be taking jump-drugs? Should a captain
refuse to take pregnant passengers or insist that all passengers sign a
pregnancy disclaimer (male and female)?

Heh-heh: this has gone to the top of my list of passenger mishaps.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:47:11 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Total Ships in Imperium - spreadsheet

Oh,
     I've posted a small (9K) spreadsheet up on
          ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/trav/ship.wk1
containing a sector by sector breakdown of the numbers. If you want to play
with the figures you can upload it.
     Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:49:12 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: OK who knows this... II

I am looking for an article about religion in Traveller (and the universal
religion profile, or something similar). My memory tells me that it was
published by Ed Edwards in his fanzine, but that may be incorrect. Can anyone
steer me in the rightdirection.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:49:13 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: UWP question

In a message dated 98-05-12 14:14:08 EDT, you write:

<< I know the Population
 Multiplier applies to the mainworld, but do the Gas Giant and Planetoid Belt
 numbers only apply to the main system, or the entire system. >>

The UWP entry applies to the star system... which means that it applies to the
entirety even if that entirety is a triple star system.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: 13 May 1998 12:06 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Supplement 5 anyone?

Can anyone out there send me a photocopy of Supplement 5?
Or, better yet, does anyone have an extra copy they'd like
to sell me?

Thanks,
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:12:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: UWP question 

> In a message dated 98-05-12 14:14:08 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I know the Population
>  Multiplier applies to the mainworld, but do the Gas Giant and Planetoid Belt
>  numbers only apply to the main system, or the entire system. >>
> 
> The UWP entry applies to the star system... which means that it applies to the
> entirety even if that entirety is a triple star system.

OK, so the population of a system is spread all over the system.  That makes sense on some of the Red Zone population figures of the CT stuff when you convert them to MT.  It also allows for a 'fuel point' to be staffed in interdicted systems, as long as they stay away from the interdicted planet itself...

Thanxx Marc.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:12:58 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II 

> 
> I am looking for an article about religion in Traveller (and the universal
> religion profile, or something similar). My memory tells me that it was
> published by Ed Edwards in his fanzine, but that may be incorrect. Can anyone
> steer me in the rightdirection.

Seen it in Grand Survey & World Builders Handbook.  <ducking>

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:20:37 -0700
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

CardSharks wrote:

> I am looking for an article about religion in Traveller (and the universal
> religion profile, or something similar). My memory tells me that it was
> published by Ed Edwards in his fanzine, but that may be incorrect. Can anyone
> steer me in the rightdirection.
>
> Marc Miller

There is an article about religion in the Two Thousand Worlds in one of the
original JTAS's.   I think it was the last one--24?

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:37:37 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Drop Tanks / External Tanks Limitations

Cheap drop tanks and other external tanks may need radiator fins and a
highly reflective coating (as noted previously). This will increase the
detection signature of the ship dramatically. 

A cheap design of semi-permanent tanks would be to make them double
skinned. Then refrigerate by pumping extra cold liquid hydrogen from the
main tanks around the outside of the tank. 

It may also be necessary to keep full tanks in the shade of the ship, as
much as possible, to minimize solar heating. Limiting maneuverability.

High G maneuvers are likely to be out of the question, when the tank is
full, as this may rip it free or rupture it. With internal collapsible
tanks this may also be a problem.

Very cheap drop tanks could be nothing more than reinforced silver
balloons (foamed plascrete?).  These would just contain extra cold
liquid hydrogen and must be used before the hydrogen can boil. These
tanks would have to be used quickly from fill-up to Jump time. This
gives a commercial advantage to the fueling station in that in order to
fill the tank quickly they would have to fill it with refined fuel (at
last - a use for it!). There would not be time for a ship to purify the
required volume of unrefined fuel before it would boil. To eject the
drop tank just pull the plug and let the residual hydrogen boil and jet
it away! 

Points arising:

How heavily is refined/unrefined fuel taxed?

In what other ways are starships taxed?

How far does planetary jurisdiction (and taxation) extend? 

Is everything beyond 100 Diameters "interstellar space" ?

If refueling stations are in interstellar space then there may be
competition to drive down the price of fuel. (i.e. filling stations get
raw fuel from nearest gas giant and transfer by low G tug(s) to 101
diameter point).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:00:33 -0500 ()
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

>I am looking for an article about religion in Traveller (and the universal
>religion profile, or something similar). My memory tells me that it was
>published by Ed Edwards in his fanzine, but that may be incorrect. Can anyone
>steer me in the rightdirection.
>
>Marc Miller

There was an article in Dragon magazine once upon a time that had a Clergy
career for Traveller and described a couple of religions. I do not remember
if there was a general discussion about religion or not, though.


Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:36:34 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: Re: New Mexico and National Labs

Merrick:

Los Alamos is one hour and thirty minutes one way to be exact from the
Bernallio exit on I25 through Santa Fe and Pojoaque.  Drive it twice a day.
Groan!

Leonard Erikson:

So, you heard about that guy who was the junk collector and owned an old
church for his warehouse.  The city/county closed his dmp because of EPA
violations and had LANL Hazmat come in to remove all the legacy chemicals he
had stored there. Talk about a mess.  I was serving with the Red Cross that
day, Donut Squad ya know.  We had to put several families up when LANL
wanted to evac the surrounding neighbors while some "methyl ethyl killya"
was moved.  There was some strange stuuf stored in this in town junk yard.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #484
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, May 13 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 485



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: New Mexico
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
RE: New Mexico and the National Labs.
re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Hijacking summation
Re: UWP question
Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
RE: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
RE: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Profitable Starships
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Profitable Starships
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: OK who knows this...
Re: Goin' to the G Store!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:22:22 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

 
> Are they really that grim? Here at LLNL we have a visitors center with some
> (admittedly boring) exhibits. I know LANL has a slightly different culture
> from a security standpoint but didn't realize it was quite that severe.
 
It isn't.

> Does WSMR have a visitors center? 
 
Dunno, I've only been there for rocket launches...

> There are tours of the Trinity site every few months or perhaps once a year,
> but I suspect you've already missed this year's window.
 
Twice a year. Once in October, once in March (April?).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:26:00 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

which one was supplement 5?


Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Can anyone out there send me a photocopy of Supplement 5?
> Or, better yet, does anyone have an extra copy they'd like
> to sell me?
>
> Thanks,
> Rob



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:10 -0600
From: Eric Holmes <holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov>
Subject: RE: New Mexico and the National Labs.

Mark Cook wrote:

Quote

Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
"Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.

I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.

End Quote

Mark you need to talk to your friend again.

Folks, having been here at LANL for the past seven years, working with every
program from the ion beam to the PIT production line at PF4....there is a
Visitor's Center, called the Bradbury Museum that shows the history of the
Lab as well as a local Historical Society's museum.   Yes, there are
classified areas that you can get shot at if you cross the fences, but for
the most part the Lab is an open area.  The last time you had to check in to
get into town was 1972, IIRC.

Sandia/Kirtland AFB has the National Atomic Museum.  This acts for the most
part as the Visitor's there.  Here be mock-ups of most historical nuclear
weapons as well a examples of delivery systems.  There is an excellent
display on the history of the Polamar, Spain incident when the US lost four
live weapons.  That was a real Broken Arrow!

Say can anyone with Special Weapons experience recall the terms for Nuclear
weapons incidents/accidents??

Dull Sword, Bent Spear, Broken Arrow....What's the fourth?  and are there
more terms for other types of incidents?

If any of you really desire to see either museum and are in the area, drop
me a line.  Also, if you plan a trip in April or October, Trinity Site is
open to the public on one weekend in each month.

Eric
Eric T. Holmes, Safety Engineer
Lead  --  Serve  --  Educate

Science Applications Int Corp
Johnson North Health and Safety Branch
PO Box 50   MS: G750
Los Alamos, NM 87544  USA
Tel:  505-665-4894
Fax:  505-665-1887
Pgr:  505-665-0062  x104-1628
Hours:  7am - 4pm Mountain

holmes_eric_t@lanl.gov

For Official Use Only

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 11:05:29 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

>Scientifically accurate, it is not.
You might take a look at 
http://impact.arc.nasa.gov/news/1998/may/05.html
for a reviewlet by the impact people at NASA/Ames; they seem to think  it's
easily the most accurate of all the impact movies yet made, for what that's
worth. I haven't seen it but I gather it has some nice touches (using an
Orion drive for the hastily-cobbled-together interception mission, which is
probably the best real-world choice if we had to do this tomorrow) and
some medium-to-major flaws, but I think it deserves points for making a 
serious effort to listen to scientific advisors (including the late 
Gene Shoemaker.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:12:35 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> 
> >Scientifically accurate, it is not.
> You might take a look at
> http://impact.arc.nasa.gov/news/1998/may/05.html
> for a reviewlet by the impact people at NASA/Ames; they seem to think  it's
> easily the most accurate of all the impact movies yet made, for what that's
> worth. 

More telling than anything else in ths review, is a clear indication of
exactly what our priorities are on this planet...

"It is interesting that the complete Spaceguard survey could be
accomplished for the cost of either one of these films: Deep Impact or
Armageddon."

Given that these movies should easily recoup their investments (despite
what the public hears, and the public books say, most Hollywood movies
do make money) it's interesting (and depressing) that people are willing
to plonk down $7-$10 to watch a movie about what could happen, and
aren't willing to pay the same as taxes to have some warning about it if
it really does happen.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 10:58:03 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation

Hello,
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation
...
>Certainly no hijacker can know ahead of time whether his ship will arrive
>two days before or two days after another ship that left at the same time.
>If the route has a few ships per day going to the same destination, his
>odds goes way down.

  Part of the original assumption was having anywhere from a day to a week
before leaving for the announced destination. There are still systems out
there where the ref is going to have a hard time believing in any scheduled
traffic whatsoever; in some of those all you need to be a successful pirate
is a _spaceship_ (non-Jump), a plan, some luck, and the brains to quit while
you're ahead.

>Still, hijackers have much better chances of actually taking over a ship
>than pirates (Provided they can manage to smuggle weapons onboard. And can
>get control of the ship's computer... if not they are just riding a
>floating coffin on a rendevouz with Authorities With Big Guns). All in
>all I think hijackers are bucking a severely stacked deck, but at least
>not as stacked as the one pirates are up against.

  It depends on the circumstances, of course, but in a peacetime Imperium
the conditions for dedicated (i.e., career) piracy will be extremely hard
to come by.
        - strategic sanctuary (for construction, resupply, selling)
        - avoidance of armed patrols / intervention

  Strangely enough, I'm not sure that wartime will actually improve the
situation, although the collapse phase for the losing side could be rich
pickings. The actual combat zone would resemble a lottery.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 12:03:02 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: UWP question

CardSharks wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 98-05-12 14:14:08 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I know the Population
>  Multiplier applies to the mainworld, but do the Gas Giant and Planetoid Belt
>  numbers only apply to the main system, or the entire system. >>
> 
> The UWP entry applies to the star system... which means that it applies to the
> entirety even if that entirety is a triple star system.
> 
> Marc Miller

Hmmmm...

I'd never even considered that.  (yeek)  The UWP for population is the entire
*system's* population?!

Makes sense I guess.  Gonna be a major pain when I get to coding that section of
system development tho'...

Thanks for the replies.

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:55:01 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Goin' to the G Store!

The G Store first showed up in one of the DGP journals -- it's sort of the
Traveller equivalent of The Sharper Image, a store that carries Tech Level 16
stuff, even on lower-tech planets.

I thought it was a cool idea, so I introduced it to my campaign.  For better
or worse, my players are really taken with the idea, and go to the local
branch whenever there is one.  Unfortunately, most of the things that are
listed as tech level advances are advances in "institutional" tech, rather
than in small consumer goods.  I've come up with a few cool ideas, such as:

*  knives with synthetic diamond-esqe blades that can scratch hullmetal
*  pens that never run out, and where you can change the color of the
    writing with a dial
*  sunglass lenses that adhere to your face by some unknown process and
    give you distance to person looked at, etc. (for the cyberpunk look)
*  grav-driven balls that you can play games with

...but I'm running out.

Anybody have any cool ideas?

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:57:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

How about a grav-chaise lounge, or a grav-recliner for the lazy set?  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:57:01 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

On Wednesday, 13 May 1998 14:13, Bruce Johnson
[SMTP:johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu] wrote:
> Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
> Given that these movies should easily recoup their investments (despite
> what the public hears, and the public books say, most Hollywood movies
> do make money) it's interesting (and depressing) that people are willing
> to plonk down $7-$10 to watch a movie about what could happen, and
> aren't willing to pay the same as taxes to have some warning about it if
> it really does happen.

Untrue. If the gov't spent the money it has better, it would easily have
enough to pay for Spaceguard.


- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:59:18 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

How about R/C grav powered models of common starships? Yes-you too can be the
first one on your TNS weblink to own your very own operable 1/100 scale
Scout/courier!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 15:01:48 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Supplement 5 anyone?

On Wednesday, 13 May 1998 12:26, Talisman [SMTP:shimmer@mhtc.net] wrote:
> which one was supplement 5?
> 
> 
> Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> > Can anyone out there send me a photocopy of Supplement 5?
> > Or, better yet, does anyone have an extra copy they'd like
> > to sell me?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Rob

Lightining Class Cruisers

- -Vanya  (aka Vargr1)                                     UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ----------------------------------- The Future is in Beta
Meyers-Briggs personality type: ENTJ          
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." |   dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:04:11 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

People suck; we deserve to be nuked by a comet. Your Nihilist thought for the
day...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:39:59 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 10:32 AM 13/05/98 EDT, Sethkimmel wrote:

>I would guess that it has something to do with the restrictive gun laws.
>Demand hasn't decreased, and the limited supply has driven up costs. This
>suits gun control advocates as the more expensive weapons get, the less
likely
>that the masses will be able to afford them. BTW the ultimate in hypocrisy
>(assuming that this data I read is true...), when Sen. Fienstein (very anti
>gun) was the mayor of San Francisco, she was one of only 7 concealed carry
>hangun permit holders in the city.

When I priced them here I was surprised by firearms prices - The price of a
new centrefire rifle actually hasn't gone up as much as I thought. IIRC a
Ruger 77 in .243 Winchester cost my father NZ$800 - 900 about 15 years ago,
and the equivilent Remington costs about $1200 now. This give an average
inflation rate in rifles prices of 1.0 - 1.9% per annum over the last 15
years. As Inflation has averaged somewhere in the 2 - 3% range over the
past decade here this is pretty good - it's not even too bad when compared
to the average salary, IIRC it's risen by about 20 -25% over the last
decade (yes that does mean that the average income earner is poorer than
they were a decade ago).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:45:40 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 10:39 AM 13/05/98 EDT, Sethkimmel wrote:

>I bet that the Kiwis pay their teachers proportionally better per capita,
then
>we do...

What do you mean by that?

Our teachers have to have 3+ years of tertiary education and start off at
about $28,000 per year, IIRC. The average class size at high school is
about 30, I think.

Looking at Eris' figures our teachers are paid more, compared to the
average wage than yours are (where he is, anyway).

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:51:08 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Profitable Starships

At 04:00 PM 13/05/98 +0100, John Buston wrote:

>Another point to consider when calculating ROI on personally owned
>starships is that the starship is your home too. You, and your crew, are
>avoiding living expenses (and taxation?) on an expensive high TL world.
>Unless of course you maintain homes as well (How many PCs do that?). If
>you were maintaining standard business accounts you would have to
>exclude the personal usage from your accounts. This would make ship
>accounts look much more profitable. 

This brings up a question - How much are Traveller taxed? And who collects
the taxes? 

If it is the Planet of Registry for the ship, we'll see worlds that are
like some countries today. They'll have no shipbuilding industry, and yet
have vast merchant fleets because they'll set their taxes and registration
fees nice and low to attact all that yummy Imperial currency.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:09:31 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

Sethkimmel wrote:
> 
> How about R/C grav powered models of common starships? Yes-you too can be the
> first one on your TNS weblink to own your very own operable 1/100 scale
> Scout/courier!

Hey hey hey! Doesn't this violate the jump drive must be in a > 100 t
hull rule?

Make it the same scale as Barbies Own Grav Car and Barbies Own CPAW and
it'll make a heckuva playset ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:05:44 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Profitable Starships

At 07:51 AM 5/14/98 +1200, you wrote:
>This brings up a question - How much are Traveller taxed? And who collects
>the taxes? 
>
>If it is the Planet of Registry for the ship, we'll see worlds that are
>like some countries today. They'll have no shipbuilding industry, and yet
>have vast merchant fleets because they'll set their taxes and registration
>fees nice and low to attact all that yummy Imperial currency.

I would think the only reasonable method of taxation in an state such as
the Imperium would be a sales tax on every item sold or every service
rendered.  For ease of play, I would think that the percentage would be
figured into the listed price as shown in the book or generated during
design.

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 13:11:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

>> > Also, keep in mind my assumptions:
>> >
>> > 1.  The ship has a generous thrust to weight ratio (significantly over
>> > 1 G).  If it doesn't, then you could have problems.
>> >
>> > 2.  The ship has maneuvering thrusters capable of nontrivial thrust
>> > (ie that can roll the ship and rotate it around various axii) and
>> > which are in balanced pairs.
>> 
>> Ah! But they are balanced around the center of *gravity* (aka center of
>> mass) of the ship. In free space, you want thrusts balanced around this
>> point.
>
> Yes, but since they can vary their thrust, one can thrust more than
> another to account for any unbalance.  Also, any rolling is going to
> be about the center of gravity anyway, so the thrusters will be able
> to counter i

As noted below, wind forces will cause rotations about the center of
pressure, not the center of gravity.

>> But wind forces will be balanced around the center of pressure which
>> *must* be in a quite different location (otherwise the ship would be
>> airframe or streamlined, etc).
>
> If the ship is a cube and the center of gravity is in the center of
> the cube then it will be in the same place as the center of pressure
> since the whole thing is symmetrical and there's no way for anything
> to be uneven.  Does Traveller define cubes as "unstreamlined"?

But *why* would the CG be the center of the ship? For use in space, it
makes more sense to have the thrusters and power plant (and thus a
*big* chunk of the mass!) at the stern. That throws the CG *way* off.

>> > 3.  The ship is not an open frame, dispersed structure but is some
>> > relatively compact shape like a sphere or a rectuangular solid or
>> > a tight cluster of these.  This means more like a space shuttle or
>> > free trader type body as opposed to a bunch of pods connected by
>> > struts with things sticking out all over the place.
>> 
>> Remember, we are talking about a ship of a hull type that the rules say
>> *isn't* allowed to land (I forget the exact names other than
>> "streamlined" and "airframe"). And that pretty much means that there is
>> *something* about the shape that makes it unstable in the presence of
>> wind forces. 
>
> Maybe this is the problem... I'm going with more general definitions
> of "unstreamlined".  If "streamlined" means capable of entering an
> atmosphere and operating with a reasonable chance of survival then that
> would include a lot of ships which wouldn't be considered "streamlined"
> by the ordinary definition of the word.

Well, as I recall, there was a *third* category of hull that could
enter atmosphere. And that's where your "cube" would go.

>> And other folks are even talking about trying this with "open frame"
>> ships. 
>
> This would be a bad idea, I agree.  In addition to all the other
> problems you'd have, you'd have wind rushing through your ship.
>
>> There are *lots* of shapes that meet your criteria, but that combined
>> with various mass distributions inside the hull, will make the ship[
>> wildly unstable in any sort of wind. 
>
> My assumption is that most ships will keep the center of mass near the
> geometric center since it's much easier to build such a ship and the
> maneuvering thrusters would probably make this assumption.  I would
> cheerfully apply penalties to maneuver a ship with the center of mass
> very far off from the geometric center in atmosphere *or* in space.

As noted above, there are *good* reasons to have the CG quite a bit off
center. And in space, it doesn't matter. You either offset the
maneuvering thrusters so they can be the same "size" and still balance,
or you use bigger ones on the "heavier" side. And the computer would
know how to "balance" the thrusters. Which would cause some real
trouble in atmosphere as the forces wouldn't be centered where the
computer expects! :-)

>> What matters is the relationship between the center of mass and the
>> center of pressure as well as the direction the ship is moving. For
>> stability, you want the CP *behind* the CG by at least a couple of body
>> diameters. In that configuration, the ship will actually self correct
>> any deflecting forces.
>> 
>> If the CP and CG are in the same place, the ship will have no inherent
>> stability, and any deflection will be unopposed. 
>> 
>> If the CP is *ahead* of the CG, the ship will have *negative*
>> stability. Any deflecting force will be *amplified* by the ship, and if
>> under power, it will try its damndest to tumble wildly (due to the
>> relative airflow cause by the thrust combined with the actual airflow).
>> 
>> And since the thrusters are paired around the CG, their restoring
>> forces won't match the deflecting forces. 
>
> All of the above discussion seems to imply that the ship is moving
> pretty fast.  Maybe if you define "center of pressure" in technical
> terms that would help me.  You can send me a private email if you
> think that that's not of general interest to the list.

The Center of gravity is the sum of all the moment arms due to *mass*.
That is, you take the mass of each component of the ship, and the
distance from some arbitrary point (say the nose of the ship), multiply
them together, and average them (I think, it's been a *long* time since
I did CG calculations by hand!). 

For CP you do similar calculations, only you use the cross sectional
area of the sections of the hull. For truly *accurate work, you have to
get into a whole bunch of stuff due to angle of attack and the like.
But for a *conservative* answer, you can quite literally take a piece
of card stock shaped like the cross section of the ship and find out
where it blances. (The fancy stuff takes into account things like drag
variations based on the differing curvatures on different parts of the
hull). 

This is why you see fins on the tail end of a rocket. The extra area at
the tail helps move the CP towards the tail.

I think CP is also used in figuring various things for aircrafty, but
I'm only familiar with using CP/CG calcs to calculate the stability of
rockets. 

And CG/CP stability gets important at fairly low speeds. Remember, with
that van you were driving, you had the friction of the tires on the
road to help keep you stable. With a rocket or a Traveller ship, all
you have are thrusters. So it's like steering an airboat. 

>> > These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
>> > an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
>> > the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
>> > flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
>> > but not strong enough to survive very high winds.
>> 
>> Sorry, but both dirigibles and helicopters *do* take CG/CP into
>> account. They are either airframe or that other clas I can't recal the
>> name of that is also allowed to enter atmospheres.
>> 
>> They are both aerodynamically stable (though the copter requires a
>> thrust to counter the torque of the main rotor).
>
> You haven't commented on my analysis of the magnitude of forces.  To
> me, that's pretty telling... the forces were so low as to not cause
> any problem at all even if they are unbalanced.  Do you disagree with
> my comments?  The inertia of most ships will be enough that forces
> of the magnitude you described will cause it to wiggle a bit but
> not enough to throw it out of control.

I think you are underestimating the magnitude of the forces. For one
thing, the reason dirigbles quit being used by the *military* wasn't
the Hindenburg accident. It was when in short order we lost two US Navy
dirigibles that got ripped apart by storm forces. They couldn't outrun
the storms, and they got mangled.

A starship is likely strong enough that it won't get mangled. But
anything that can take a modern airliner and *throw* it 10,000 feet in
less than a minute is something that a starship with CG/CP problems is
going to regret running into. 

Sure, you've got a high thrust to weight ratio (by your assumptions).
But your thrust is along the ship's thrust axis. And the winds can
*change* that without warning. The thrusters have to play catch up to
get you pointed back in the right direction. 

You can try to keep your speed relative to the *ground* down to 30 mph
or the like. But trying to keep it to that relative to the *air* is
pretty much futile. There are regions where you'll have the wind speed
change by over 100 mph in a matter of yards. And I'm not talking about
storms. 

Add in storms that you can't avoid (without moving fast enough to run
into stability problems) and things like clear air turbulence (that
your ship isn't equipped to detect) and it's going to be *real* hairy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 01:32:57 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this...

Odin Sveinsson wrote:
> 
> Hello Folks,
> 
>         I'm looking for the documents from the H.I.W.G (history
> of the Imperium Working Group). I use to be the Verge sector analyst
> and I'd like to find some of those articles. My articles were all
> on the Ancients and their sites within the Verge sector.
Hmmm, id like this info as well.
If you permit, odin, id like to also put them on my web-page, where i am trying to collect all
official and unofficial info about the Ancients

- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:20:15 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

Bruce Johnson wrote:

> Sethkimmel wrote:
> >
> > How about R/C grav powered models of common starships? Yes-you too can be the
> > first one on your TNS weblink to own your very own operable 1/100 scale
> > Scout/courier!
>
> Hey hey hey! Doesn't this violate the jump drive must be in a > 100 t
> hull rule?

I believe the SAFE limit is 100 dT.  Since this is just a toy, you can just slap a
disclaimer on it and let it be unsafe.  However, since it probably doesn't have the
range to get it out past 10-100 diameters, you can't engage the jump drives anyway.
It does however violate the 2 kL minimum size for jump drives. At  1:100 scale, the
whole thing is only 1.4 liters.

>
>
> Make it the same scale as Barbies Own Grav Car and Barbies Own CPAW and
> it'll make a heckuva playset ;-)

That would be rather large 1:10? Which makes the Scout 3.5 meters long. About the
size of a corvette.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #485
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 486



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Total Ships in the Imperium
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Traveller * Your tax dollar at work
Re: OK who knows this... II
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
energy weapons in T4.1?
Re: OK who knows this... II
Re: energy weapons in T4.1?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: OK who knows this...
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Hijacking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 14:58:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

In Traveller-digest V1998 #485, Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com> writes:

> People suck; we deserve to be nuked by a comet. Your Nihilist thought
> for the day...

Hmmm.  "Nuked by a comet... nuked by a comet."  Is that anything like
being "shot by a bicycle" or "gassed by a pipe wrench"?   Wait, wait!
I know!  "Trampled by eveningwear"!  That's what it's like!!  No!  No!!
Better yet, "electrocuted by pneumatic broccoli"!  That's it!! :^)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting *  shoestring graphics & printing
 2055 s.w. whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-753-2732      Fax: 541-753-2738       http://www.ssgfx.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   This message brought to you by the National Non-Sequitur Society.
   We may not make sense, but the panda is really a giant racoon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 17:11:21 -0500 (CDT)
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

On Wed, 13 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Yes, but since they can vary their thrust, one can thrust more than
> > another to account for any unbalance.  Also, any rolling is going to
> > be about the center of gravity anyway, so the thrusters will be able
> > to counter i
> 
> As noted below, wind forces will cause rotations about the center of
> pressure, not the center of gravity.

A force exerted on a body will cause the body to move (translate) if
the force is inline with the center of mass.  If the force is not
inline with the center of mass, the body will move (translate) and
rotate about it's center of mass.  The rotation is determined by the
moment (force applied times moment arm - perpendicular distance of
the force from the center of mass).

My guess is that the center of pressure is the point at which the
forces from wind are applied.  If this is at the center of mass, the
ship will be moved by the wind, but not rotated.  If it is not at the
center of mass, then, depending on the wind direction, the wind will
rotate the ship.  A center of pressure behind the center of mass means that
forces applied will tend to keep the ship pointing in the right
direction while a center of pressure in front of the center of mass
will tend to cuase the ship to flip around.

This only really matters if the ship is moving and the primary wind
pressure is due to the vehicle moving through the air (which is the
case of a rocket or airplane).  A ship which is moving slowly will
mostly be experiencing wind pressure from wind, not it's motion.

> As noted above, there are *good* reasons to have the CG quite a bit off
> center. And in space, it doesn't matter. You either offset the
> maneuvering thrusters so they can be the same "size" and still balance,
> or you use bigger ones on the "heavier" side. And the computer would
> know how to "balance" the thrusters. Which would cause some real
> trouble in atmosphere as the forces wouldn't be centered where the
> computer expects! :-)

Assuming several thousand years of development, I'm assuming that the
computer would compensate for unbalanced loads automatically.  In space
it makes sense to load the ship so that the center of gravity stays
in the same place or is in one of several places which the thrusters are
designed to work around most efficiently.  Assuming this, the thrusters
would compensate for any rolling.

> >> What matters is the relationship between the center of mass and the
> >> center of pressure as well as the direction the ship is moving. For
> >> stability, you want the CP *behind* the CG by at least a couple of body
> >> diameters. In that configuration, the ship will actually self correct
> >> any deflecting forces.
> >> 
> >> If the CP and CG are in the same place, the ship will have no inherent
> >> stability, and any deflection will be unopposed. 
> >> 
> >> If the CP is *ahead* of the CG, the ship will have *negative*
> >> stability. Any deflecting force will be *amplified* by the ship, and if
> >> under power, it will try its damndest to tumble wildly (due to the
> >> relative airflow cause by the thrust combined with the actual airflow).
> >> 
> >> And since the thrusters are paired around the CG, their restoring
> >> forces won't match the deflecting forces. 

This stability is only an issue if you're flying into the wind and the
forces are with respect to this wind.  If your ship is still or moving very
slow (<50 mph say) then the forces will be due to whatever wind is hitting
the ship.  The stability issue is only when the wind is coming from the
direction of motion and the ship has a preferred direction to fly.

> > All of the above discussion seems to imply that the ship is moving
> > pretty fast.  Maybe if you define "center of pressure" in technical
> > terms that would help me.  You can send me a private email if you
> > think that that's not of general interest to the list.
> 
> The Center of gravity is the sum of all the moment arms due to *mass*.
> That is, you take the mass of each component of the ship, and the
> distance from some arbitrary point (say the nose of the ship), multiply
> them together, and average them (I think, it's been a *long* time since
> I did CG calculations by hand!). 

Ceneter of mass (gravity) is the point at which mass is equially
distributed in all directions.  This means that any force through this
point will not rotate the object.  This also means that any offset
force will cause rotation about this point or an axis through this
point.

> For CP you do similar calculations, only you use the cross sectional
> area of the sections of the hull. For truly *accurate work, you have to
> get into a whole bunch of stuff due to angle of attack and the like.
> But for a *conservative* answer, you can quite literally take a piece
> of card stock shaped like the cross section of the ship and find out
> where it blances. (The fancy stuff takes into account things like drag
> variations based on the differing curvatures on different parts of the
> hull). 

So CP will vary with the direction the wind is coming from?

> This is why you see fins on the tail end of a rocket. The extra area at
> the tail helps move the CP towards the tail.
> 
> I think CP is also used in figuring various things for aircrafty, but
> I'm only familiar with using CP/CG calcs to calculate the stability of
> rockets. 

Rockets will generally be moving much faster than I'd expect an
unstreamlined ship to move.  Your intuitions about rockets may not apply.

> And CG/CP stability gets important at fairly low speeds. Remember, with
> that van you were driving, you had the friction of the tires on the
> road to help keep you stable. With a rocket or a Traveller ship, all
> you have are thrusters. So it's like steering an airboat. 

But these strong forces which would move a ship 10,000 feet in a minute
would easily roll a van or toss it off the road.  Not only did that not
happen, but the van stayed in its lane quite easily.

> >> > These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
> >> > an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
> >> > the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
> >> > flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
> >> > but not strong enough to survive very high winds.
> >> 
> >> Sorry, but both dirigibles and helicopters *do* take CG/CP into
> >> account. They are either airframe or that other clas I can't recal the
> >> name of that is also allowed to enter atmospheres.
> >> 
> >> They are both aerodynamically stable (though the copter requires a
> >> thrust to counter the torque of the main rotor).
> >
> > You haven't commented on my analysis of the magnitude of forces.  To
> > me, that's pretty telling... the forces were so low as to not cause
> > any problem at all even if they are unbalanced.  Do you disagree with
> > my comments?  The inertia of most ships will be enough that forces
> > of the magnitude you described will cause it to wiggle a bit but
> > not enough to throw it out of control.
> 
> I think you are underestimating the magnitude of the forces. For one
> thing, the reason dirigbles quit being used by the *military* wasn't
> the Hindenburg accident. It was when in short order we lost two US Navy
> dirigibles that got ripped apart by storm forces. They couldn't outrun
> the storms, and they got mangled.

I used the force that you calculated.  I didn't estimate it myself.
It ended up being fairly trivial, like .02 G's of acceleration on
a big metal plate without even a ship attached to it.  I think that you
are way overestimating the forces and your numbers back that up.

> A starship is likely strong enough that it won't get mangled. But
> anything that can take a modern airliner and *throw* it 10,000 feet in
> less than a minute is something that a starship with CG/CP problems is
> going to regret running into. 

Avoiding bad storms is something airplanes do even today.  I'm assuming
that anyone flying anything will avoid them.

> Sure, you've got a high thrust to weight ratio (by your assumptions).
> But your thrust is along the ship's thrust axis. And the winds can
> *change* that without warning. The thrusters have to play catch up to
> get you pointed back in the right direction. 

Well, my assumption is also that starships have some vectored thrust,
both for maneuvering and to compensate for a shifting center of mass.

> You can try to keep your speed relative to the *ground* down to 30 mph
> or the like. But trying to keep it to that relative to the *air* is
> pretty much futile. There are regions where you'll have the wind speed
> change by over 100 mph in a matter of yards. And I'm not talking about
> storms. 
> 
> Add in storms that you can't avoid (without moving fast enough to run
> into stability problems) and things like clear air turbulence (that
> your ship isn't equipped to detect) and it's going to be *real* hairy.

What is needed to detect clear air turbulence?

Also, any ship or airplaine or other vehicle moving through an atmosphere
is going to have problems with unexpected turbulence and storms.  I'm
just saying that an unstreamlined ship will be able to operate in an
atmosphere relatively safely, just not as efficiently or safely as a
craft designed for that purpose.

Bolie IV


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:14:37 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Total Ships in the Imperium

At 04:23 PM 13/05/98 +0100, Jo Grant wrote:

>Naval Vessels:      Cr 500,000 per ton.
>Armed Merchants:    Cr 250,000 per ton.
>Unarmed Merchants:  Cr 200,000 per ton.

I've recently been designing FF&S1 warships, and when I looked at these I
thought that there had been considerable inflation since CT days (my memory
was that my ships were costing about MCr 1 per ton). However when I did
some serious analysis I found that the inflation wasn't as serious as I
thought.

Here's what I got (adj price is the list price adjusted for TL & Starport):

Class Disp    TL Price(MCr) Adj Price Price/DT Adj Price/DT
BD    1000000	15 508625.9   508625.9  0.509    0.509
BB    210525	14 97761.2    92873.14  0.464    0.441
BB    70300	14 75648.8    71866.36  1.076    1.022
BC    38850	14 37368.6    35500.17  0.962    0.914
BC    38850	14 36351.1    34533.545 0.936    0.889
CA    25600	14 12344.8    11727.56  0.482    0.458
CL    23100	13 10810      9729      0.468    0.421
DD    8600	14 4419.9     4198.905  0.514    0.488
FF    2500	14 1370       1301.5    0.548    0.521
CV    92700	14 27914.5    26518.775 0.301    0.286
CE    44250	14 12641      12008.95  0.286    0.271

Average                               0.595    0.565

The thing I found interesting was that the expense per ton seems to be most
closely related to the mass of armour as compared to the size of the ship,
though the BB & BCs are thruster ships and the others use HEPLaR, so that
is obviously even more important.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:43:22 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

On Wed, 13 May 1998 10:26:55 EDT, Sethkimmel wrote:

> What did they screw up?

Well...


.
.
.

S
P
O
I
L
E
R


S
P
A
C
E

.
.
.



Without giving away too much, I'll answer your question with a few of my
own (and no, I don't actually know the answers to many of these):




How does one navigate an intercept course that takes you through the tail
of the comet where ice chunks (as big as houses) are hurtling past you?
How slow-moving and small would one of these fragments have to be to bounce
*harmlessly* off of your hull?

Does sunlight striking a comet's surface cause (nearly) instantaneous
surface eruptions of gas and whatnot?

How can 8 1 MT nuclear devices (planted 100 metres below the surface) blast
a comet "the size of Mt. Everest" into two dissimilarly sized pieces (about
10%/90%), while only 4 such warheads can blast the larger of the two chunks
(500 billion tons, IIRC) into itty bitty pieces that "will burn up
harmlessly in the upper atmosphere"?

Speaking of which, how can you possibly consider the rise in temperature
involving burning up nearly 500 billion tons of rock and ice in our
atmosphere as "harmless" (not to mention all that water vapour)?

Why would you detonate the first eight nukes when the spacecraft hadn't
reached a safe distance yet?

How can a government design and construct a craft like the one depicted in
the movie in less than a year?

Considering the measly 20 second delay in communications between the comet
and Earth at the time of the first nuclear detonation (ie: the eight
warheads), wouldn't *any* action at that distance be considered futile?
And why did it take the craft five months to reach this distance with a
state-of-the-art nuclear propulsion system?

How could the individuals chosen for the comet rendezvous be so
undisciplined and cocky (and young) if they're supposed to be "the best of
the best"?  Robert Duvall's character was the only level-headed character
aboard.

How does one prepare an underground dwelling for *one million* Americans to
survive in for two years in only a year and a half?




Don't get me wrong, many of the eye candy VFX shots are accurate, like the
waters receding away from the beach just prior to the tidal wave washing
ashore.  The only cheer that took place during the movie was by yours truly
when we found out that the larger chunk was due to hit somewhere in Western
Canada (a picture of myself holding up a tiny parasol a la "Wile E. Coyote"
quickly popped into my head).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:42:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

It's a TOY wiseguys. It's meant to be used near the surface of a world (it has
Grav drives-not manuever and jump drives)  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:48:20 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

Ha Ha Ha! It is SLANG. Would you prefer kinetic energied, drowned, parboiled,
vaporised (if you get REAL lucky), etc. Even this dumb liberal arts major
understands what happens when you play "drop the rock" on an intersteller
level. Sheesh-no more comedy on the list for me.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 16:21:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller * Your tax dollar at work

Hello,
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Traveller * Your tax dollar at work
...
>According to _Striker_, military budget ranges from 1 to 15%, with 1%
>being after a _looong_ period of peace and 15% was full scale war. The
>average was, IIRC, 3% for the peacetime Imperium. Of this money 30%
>goes to the Imperium, who lets the subsector forces keep half and use
>the other half for its regular fleets. Its unclear if the Scouts are

  Given the 30% of 3% guideline, it might be simpler to say that the
Imperiumms' cut is 1%; the minimum therefore representing effectively
diarmed societies that allow the 3I to handle _all_ external threats,
and stick to policing and customs themselves.

>paid out of the this or whether their budget comes from elsewhere 
>(They may even be earning their own upkeep for all we know). IMO the

  Quite possible if they're using state supplied capital infrastructure,
or have either a legislated or natural monopoly.

...
>The two-tier fleet system implies that the subsector fleets are available
>for defense of the subsector's systems unless transferred somewhere else,
>something that seems only to happen in a full-scale war.

  It would require a fair chunk of merchant tonnage to function as
their fleet train if they deployed at strategic range from their
homebases.

...
>Why did the British fight for the Falkland Islands? That surely wasn't
>cost-effective.

  That would depend on whether Gen. Galtieri wanted Thatcher re-elected :)
But seriously, there are possible questions about the various economic
zones off-shore and their potential future exploitation.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:06:00 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

In a message dated 98-05-13 13:13:10 EDT, you write:

<< 
 There was an article in Dragon magazine once upon a time that had a Clergy
 career for Traveller and described a couple of religions. I do not remember
 if there was a general discussion about religion or not, though.  >>

Thanks. That's not the article though. This created a Religion Profile.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:05:58 EDT
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

In a message dated 98-05-13 13:29:09 EDT, you write:

<< 
 which one was supplement 5?
 
 
  >>
Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in Azhanti
High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 

I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
on the list are looking for this?

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:17:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

> << 
>  which one was supplement 5?
>   >>
> Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in Azhanti
> High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 

I bought Azhanti High Lightning just to plug the hole in my Supplement list. 
I thought I was sick for doing it, but today, I look at my "little book" 
collection and grin.

> I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
> on the list are looking for this?

I have the real thing, but don't let me be the spoil sport.

Rob

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:07:23 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

Count me in.

Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, May 13, 1998 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?


>In a message dated 98-05-13 13:29:09 EDT, you write:
>
><<
> which one was supplement 5?
>
>
>  >>
>Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in Azhanti
>High Lightning, and thus extremely rare.
>
>I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
>on the list are looking for this?
>
>Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:19:27 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: energy weapons in T4.1?

The latest version of the T4.1 Skills Text document makes no
mention of personal energy weapons. During the last session
my players were asking about it.

Does anyone have any idea of how they'll work in the new
rules?
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:21:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael and MJ Houghton <herveus@access.digex.net>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

Howdy!

> 
> I am looking for an article about religion in Traveller (and the universal
> religion profile, or something similar). My memory tells me that it was
> published by Ed Edwards in his fanzine, but that may be incorrect. Can anyone
> steer me in the rightdirection.
> 
> Marc Miller
> 

Grand Census has a blurb on Religion along with a Religious Profile.
Got it right here at hand...

yours,
Michael

- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@access.digex.net  | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.access.digex.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:52:04 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: energy weapons in T4.1?

Erwin Fritz wrote:

> The latest version of the T4.1 Skills Text document makes no
> mention of personal energy weapons. During the last session
> my players were asking about it.
>
> Does anyone have any idea of how they'll work in the new
> rules?

Since they aren't mentioned  in T4 either, I'm assuming that there is
no change whatssoever.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:54:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

CardSharks wrote:

> In a message dated 98-05-13 13:29:09 EDT, you write:
>
> <<
>  which one was supplement 5?
>   >>
> Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in Azhanti
> High Lightning, and thus extremely rare.
>
> I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
> on the list are looking for this?
>
> Marc Miller

Interested but need more information.  I am only aware of the cult status of this
supplement and not with anything it contains.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 22:55:13 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this...

"Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de> wrote

> Odin Sveinsson wrote:

> >         I'm looking for the documents from the H.I.W.G (history
> > of the Imperium Working Group). I use to be the Verge sector analyst
> > and I'd like to find some of those articles.

> Hmmm, id like this info as well.
> If you permit, odin, id like to also put them on my web-page, where i 
> am trying to collect all official and unofficial info about the 
> Ancients

I would also like to see them as part of my (very slowly) ongoing effort
to name & detail every world in the Verge Sector (both 1117 and 1201
data). If anyone knows where Odin's HIWG articles might be please let
the TML know.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:14:13 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> Bruce Johnson wrote:

> > Sethkimmel wrote:

> > > How about R/C grav powered models of common starships? Yes-you too 
> > > can be the first one on your TNS weblink to own your very own 
> > > operable 1/100 scale Scout/courier!

This is a good idea, but is it really TL 16 ?  I suspect that getting an
operable 1/100 scale Scout/courier would be less than TL 16 as long as
you left out the jump drive and used ordinary gravitics rather than a
thruster plate.  Since these are going to be frightfully expensive toys
I suspect most owners will not try to jump them or send them very far
from their home planets so this won't be much of a limit.  In addition
you do not want to let your radio controlled model get much more than
30,000 km's away or speed of light lags will raise the risk of crashes
to too high a level.  In addition I suspect that using these things in
deep space would probably violate the Imperial Rules of Space Handling
and might be an Imperial crime.

> > Hey hey hey! Doesn't this violate the jump drive must be in a > 100 
> > ton hull rule?

Obviously this is a TNE model, where no such limit applies. :)
> 
> I believe the SAFE limit is 100 dT.  Since this is just a toy, you can 
> just slap a disclaimer on it and let it be unsafe.  However, since it 
> probably doesn't have the range to get it out past 10-100 diameters, > you can't engage the jump drives anyway.
> It does however violate the 2 kL minimum size for jump drives. At  
> 1:100 scale, the whole thing is only 1.4 liters.

Maybe Yaskodray made these for his children, I assume he had the TL
required to make tiny starships.  As smaller ships are cheaper, ceteris
paribus, he could have made more of them.

> > Make it the same scale as Barbies Own Grav Car and Barbies Own CPAW 
> > and it'll make a heckuva playset ;-)
> 
> That would be rather large 1:10? Which makes the Scout 3.5 meters 
> long. About the size of a corvette.

How about marketing real operable 1/10th scale Scout/courier grav cars
to sell to ex scouts.

Is there anyone out their who feels like designing one ?  Note that the
grav car will not have much headroom and might be best designed so that
the operator & any passengers are reclined.


Think about it if the ex scouts are going to be buying a grav car anyway
you might as well try and sell them one shaped like their old ship. 
Since the Scout/courier is an airframe design the scale model of it will
be one as well.  Since Scout ships are ubiqutous Imperium wide you will
not have to spend much, or any, money on a brand recognition campaign. 
If you play your cards right you may be able to get these things
liscensed by the Scout service or (better yet) you could give one to the
Imperial family as a marketing tool.  How many billions would you have
to pay for ads that would get as much air time as the "cute" spot of the
Emperors teenaged child flying her new grav car on the evening TAS news
?

Of course palace security will be having a coronary over the whole thing
but if you don't take a few risks as a teenager you are never really
going to grow up [This may have been Emperor Lucan's problem.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 23:32:26 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Hijacking

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote

> >From: ringrose@ascent.com

> >If you assume rampant corruption in certain areas, it is possible to
> >steal and sell ships.

> >a. Hijackers make arrangements with a representative of a shady
> >deep-space salvage operator.

> >f. Company realizes that if they start investigating, the ship will
> >simply get sold to someone else, vastly increasing their losses to
> >this activity, and decide to cut their losses.
> 
>   What if the company buys back their ship and then passes their
> suspicions on to the relevant authorities?

Then the company will have no chance of getting back the next starship
that the hijackers steal.  You also risk the lives of that ships crew,
the morale of the crew of your other ships nad a vast ammount of money. 
Would you want to be the person risking _your_ career on the bet that
the authorities would find & punish the criminals.  If you are wrong and
the authorites fail to capture the criminals you may very well end up
fired about 100 nanoseconds after the company learns that the next
starship has been stolen - you have just cost them millions.  Of course
depending on your perception of the cultural norms of the Third Imperium
it may be that letting someone steal your starship and getting away with
it might be somewhat harmful to your companies image.  If Imperial
culture is macho enough it might even be viewed as emasculating.  It
would be a  "Hello. My name is Ingio Montoya.  You stole my starship. 
Prepare to die." sort of thing.

If you are going to play it that way you would be better of hiring a
repo man to get the ship back.  If you are going to be ruthless about
the whole thing it might be easier to just start torturing the families
of suspected hijackers to death until the hijackers realize they would
be better off stealing someone, anyone, elses ships.  [Insert plot
Idea]  I know that if I were running a Mega corp I would want my
entertainment division to run a line of films where the Dirty Harry
esque hero was the repo man who hunted down and killed people who stole
any of my companies starships.  Every film would end with the hostage
rescued and the terrorists dead.  This you make money on the films,
deter theft of your starships, and can film most of the movies on your
own starships providing free product placement throughout the movie.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #486
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 487



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Hijacking summation
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Drop tank glitch?
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #486
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Total ships in the Imperium
Expanded life support costs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:52:53 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com> Marc Miller wrote

> Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in 
> Azhanti High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 

> I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. 
> How many on the list are looking for this?

I have the real thing.  Are you still considering doing reprints of the,
much rarer, Journal of the Travellers Aid Society #1 ?  I have not been
able to find it anywhere.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:17:05 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

>I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
>on the list are looking for this?

I could use one.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:24:38 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation

Steven Hudson writes:

>>Certainly no hijacker can know ahead of time whether his ship will arrive
>>two days before or two days after another ship that left at the same time.
>>If the route has a few ships per day going to the same destination, his
>>odds goes way down.
> 
>  Part of the original assumption was having anywhere from a day to a week
>before leaving for the announced destination.

I don't understand that comment. Wouldn't that give the forces of Law and
Order _more_ time to announce the schedule to the next destination?



>There are still systems out there where the ref is going to have a hard
>time believing in any scheduled traffic whatsoever;

Weren't we talking about systems with enough traffic to make a drop tank
operation profitable?

>in some of those all you need to be a successful pirate is a _spaceship_
>(non-Jump), a plan, some luck, and the brains to quit while you're ahead.

Not quite. We were over all this a few months ago. It's true that any
merchant ship that arrives at a system with no military patrol ships
are easy prey to any armed spaceship that is faster than it. It won't
have the fuel to escape by jumping and it will eventually be hunted
down. The trouble is that merchant ships are so expensive that it only
takes a single loss to outweigh quite a lot of prevention. So it dosen't
take much traffic to make prevention worth while. And in those systems
where prevention isn't worth while, the pirate will have to wait months
to get a shot at a victim; months during which his ship is not making
any money.

Hijackers have their own problems, but at least they don't have to use a
piece of equipment worth at least 10 times the prospective loot.
 
>  It depends on the circumstances, of course, but in a peacetime Imperium
>the conditions for dedicated (i.e., career) piracy will be extremely hard
>to come by.
>        - strategic sanctuary (for construction, resupply, selling)
>        - avoidance of armed patrols / intervention

Agreed. Much depends, I suppose, on whether or not you believe a ship can
be disguised so much that it cannot be identified again later. I tend to
think not, but I admit that's just an opinion. I do think that if ships
cannot be adequately disguised, then captured ships _has_ to be moved to
another jurisdiction and never, ever come back to the original area of
operation. Starships are so expensive that _many_ manhours would be
dedicated to recovering them if such was possible.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 02:07:50 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

> Scientifically accurate, it is not.

But, its fun.  Like "Starship Troopers".  Which I know did not follow the
book, but you have to admit, you did have fun when you saw the movie.

> Nuff said.

'Nuff said.

> James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
>  "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
>             ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
Cult 'O Gabe's Holy Avenger in charge of Military Afairs
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:46:30 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

Rupert Boleyn writes:

>At 04:00 PM 13/05/98 +0100, John Buston wrote:
> 
>>Another point to consider when calculating ROI on personally owned
>>starships is that the starship is your home too. You, and your crew, are
>>avoiding living expenses (and taxation?) on an expensive high TL world.
>>Unless of course you maintain homes as well (How many PCs do that?). If
>>you were maintaining standard business accounts you would have to
>>exclude the personal usage from your accounts. This would make ship
>>accounts look much more profitable. 

Bear in mind that a good food and lodging can be had dirtside for Cr4,800/year.
Life support on a ship is supposedly Cr48,000/year, TEN times as much. 

>This brings up a question - How much are Traveller taxed? And who collects
>the taxes? 

Taxes are not one of the operating expenses of a starship. If starships are
taxed it is through hidden taxes. It does not appear to be berthing fees,
because BFs seems absurdly low (averages out to Cr100 for the first six days
in port). It might be refined fuel (It costs about 5 to 10 credits to refine
a ton of fuel, so the price difference between unrefined and refined fuel
means that someone is making a HUGE profit (Except that unrefined fuel is
always available as an alternative and if refined fuel costs more than
Cr300/T it becomes cheaper for a starship to carry a fuel purifier plant
and refine its own fuel (the saving on fuel cost will outweigh the loss of
cargo/passenger space that the purifier takes up))). 

> If it is the Planet of Registry for the ship, we'll see worlds that are
> like some countries today. They'll have no shipbuilding industry, and yet
> have vast merchant fleets because they'll set their taxes and registration
> fees nice and low to attact all that yummy Imperial currency.

I think Vland has been mentioned as the official home port of one of the
free traders in the Spinward Marches (the EMPRESS NICHOLLE perhaps?)
Somehow I don't see Vland as a tax haven, but that's just my opinion.

One of the ways I justify the very low Imperial pensions is by saying that
Imperial pensions are not subject to taxation by planetary governments. 
Perhaps the same applies to interstellar ships.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:54:23 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch?

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:

>>...WHY does it take so much longer to pump fuel from a
>> collapsible tank than from a rigid tank?
> 
>Ever empty a waterbed?  <grin>

No, but I'd bet you haven't tried doing it with the help of a high-capacity
electrical pump, either. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
  "Free speech gives a man the right to talk about the
'psycology' of an amoeba, but I don't have to listen".
                  Elihu Nivens in 'The Puppet Masters'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:04:23 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

>But, its fun.  Like "Starship Troopers".  Which I know did not follow the
>book, but you have to admit, you did have fun when you saw the movie.
>
Yeah, we coined the term "Verhoen physics" to describe the various stuff
depicted in the movie. I especially liked to close encounter with asteroid
depiction - the director/scriptwriter shure has a firm grip on gravity
don't you think ;-)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:04:31 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

John Buston writes:

>Do the traveller books mention anywhere the effects of bringing up a
>family on a starship?

No. But you can figure out that it is very expensive. Figure a child takes
up half a stateroom and use up half the normal life support of an adult.
That will cost you Cr24,000/year for life support and the revenue of half
a stateroom, anything from Cr100,000/year and down, depending on how often
your passenger list is full up. That's assuming the spouse is doing the
job of a crewmember. If he/she is deadheading (if that's the word I want),
then it's costing you another Cr48,000-248,000. If they were living on a
planet, food and lodging would cost Cr2,400/year for a child and Cr4,800/year
for a spouse.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 00:32:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

> On Wed, 13 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > Yes, but since they can vary their thrust, one can thrust more than
>> > another to account for any unbalance.  Also, any rolling is going to
>> > be about the center of gravity anyway, so the thrusters will be able
>> > to counter i
>> 
>> As noted below, wind forces will cause rotations about the center of
>> pressure, not the center of gravity.
>
> A force exerted on a body will cause the body to move (translate) if
> the force is inline with the center of mass.  If the force is not
> inline with the center of mass, the body will move (translate) and
> rotate about it's center of mass.  The rotation is determined by the
> moment (force applied times moment arm - perpendicular distance of
> the force from the center of mass).
>
> My guess is that the center of pressure is the point at which the
> forces from wind are applied. 

Yep.

> If this is at the center of mass, the
> ship will be moved by the wind, but not rotated.  If it is not at the
> center of mass, then, depending on the wind direction, the wind will
> rotate the ship.  A center of pressure behind the center of mass means that
> forces applied will tend to keep the ship pointing in the right
> direction while a center of pressure in front of the center of mass
> will tend to cuase the ship to flip around.
>
> This only really matters if the ship is moving and the primary wind
> pressure is due to the vehicle moving through the air (which is the
> case of a rocket or airplane).  A ship which is moving slowly will
> mostly be experiencing wind pressure from wind, not it's motion.

No it still matters if the ship is moving slowly and the wind moves
fast. That will tend to make a "stable" ship point into the wind (known
as "weathercocking" in rockets) and given an unstable ship pushes in
*very* odd directions. 

>> As noted above, there are *good* reasons to have the CG quite a bit off
>> center. And in space, it doesn't matter. You either offset the
>> maneuvering thrusters so they can be the same "size" and still balance,
>> or you use bigger ones on the "heavier" side. And the computer would
>> know how to "balance" the thrusters. Which would cause some real
>> trouble in atmosphere as the forces wouldn't be centered where the
>> computer expects! :-)
>
> Assuming several thousand years of development, I'm assuming that the
> computer would compensate for unbalanced loads automatically.  In space
> it makes sense to load the ship so that the center of gravity stays
> in the same place or is in one of several places which the thrusters are
> designed to work around most efficiently.  Assuming this, the thrusters
> would compensate for any rolling.

But the computer program for a ship not intended to emnter atmosphere
is going to be programmed to assume that *all* forces go thru the CG.
The wind forces going thru the CP will produce deflection forces that
don't act in a way the computer is programmed to handle.

>> >> What matters is the relationship between the center of mass and the
>> >> center of pressure as well as the direction the ship is moving. For
>> >> stability, you want the CP *behind* the CG by at least a couple of body
>> >> diameters. In that configuration, the ship will actually self correct
>> >> any deflecting forces.
>> >> 
>> >> If the CP and CG are in the same place, the ship will have no inherent
>> >> stability, and any deflection will be unopposed. 
>> >> 
>> >> If the CP is *ahead* of the CG, the ship will have *negative*
>> >> stability. Any deflecting force will be *amplified* by the ship, and if
>> >> under power, it will try its damndest to tumble wildly (due to the
>> >> relative airflow cause by the thrust combined with the actual airflow).
>> >> 
>> >> And since the thrusters are paired around the CG, their restoring
>> >> forces won't match the deflecting forces. 
>
> This stability is only an issue if you're flying into the wind and the
> forces are with respect to this wind.  If your ship is still or moving very
> slow (<50 mph say) then the forces will be due to whatever wind is hitting
> the ship.  The stability issue is only when the wind is coming from the
> direction of motion and the ship has a preferred direction to fly.

No, crosswinds and updrafts downdrafts can cause problems, *especially*
if they are moving as fast as the ship OR FASTER. And that latter is
just about inevitable in the process of trying to land *slowly* (under
50 mph)

>> > All of the above discussion seems to imply that the ship is moving
>> > pretty fast.  Maybe if you define "center of pressure" in technical
>> > terms that would help me.  You can send me a private email if you
>> > think that that's not of general interest to the list.
>> 
>> The Center of gravity is the sum of all the moment arms due to *mass*.
>> That is, you take the mass of each component of the ship, and the
>> distance from some arbitrary point (say the nose of the ship), multiply
>> them together, and average them (I think, it's been a *long* time since
>> I did CG calculations by hand!). 
>
> Ceneter of mass (gravity) is the point at which mass is equially
> distributed in all directions.  This means that any force through this
> point will not rotate the object.  This also means that any offset
> force will cause rotation about this point or an axis through this
> point.


>> For CP you do similar calculations, only you use the cross sectional
>> area of the sections of the hull. For truly *accurate work, you have to
>> get into a whole bunch of stuff due to angle of attack and the like.
>> But for a *conservative* answer, you can quite literally take a piece
>> of card stock shaped like the cross section of the ship and find out
>> where it blances. (The fancy stuff takes into account things like drag
>> variations based on the differing curvatures on different parts of the
>> hull). 
>
> So CP will vary with the direction the wind is coming from?

The CP *can* vary (I think), but for most shapes it should be pretty
much the same. The quick & dirty method I gave assumes a wind from the
side (usually the worst case for deflecting forces), and it does
simplify stuff a lot. But I think the CP is generally as fixed as the
CG. 

>> This is why you see fins on the tail end of a rocket. The extra area at
>> the tail helps move the CP towards the tail.
>> 
>> I think CP is also used in figuring various things for aircrafty, but
>> I'm only familiar with using CP/CG calcs to calculate the stability of
>> rockets. 
>
> Rockets will generally be moving much faster than I'd expect an
> unstreamlined ship to move.  Your intuitions about rockets may not apply.

The rocket calculations were for some pretty slow rockets. Definitely
subsonic. And the effects are observable down as low as 30 -50 mph (the
cheap way to test models is hanging them out a window of a car!)

>> And CG/CP stability gets important at fairly low speeds. Remember, with
>> that van you were driving, you had the friction of the tires on the
>> road to help keep you stable. With a rocket or a Traveller ship, all
>> you have are thrusters. So it's like steering an airboat. 
>
> But these strong forces which would move a ship 10,000 feet in a minute
> would easily roll a van or toss it off the road.  Not only did that not
> happen, but the van stayed in its lane quite easily.

Try it on an icy road. I've seen VW buses flipped and worse, and semis
pulling empty trailer go skating all over the place due to wind gusts.

>> >> > These ships should be able to maneuver as well as a big truck or
>> >> > an unstreamlined helicopter or a dirigible.  Dirigibles have navigated
>> >> > the skies quite safely for some time even though they are quite
>> >> > flimsy and slow to move and maneuver.  They are somewhat aerodynamic,
>> >> > but not strong enough to survive very high winds.
>> >> 
>> >> Sorry, but both dirigibles and helicopters *do* take CG/CP into
>> >> account. They are either airframe or that other clas I can't recal the
>> >> name of that is also allowed to enter atmospheres.
>> >> 
>> >> They are both aerodynamically stable (though the copter requires a
>> >> thrust to counter the torque of the main rotor).
>> >
>> > You haven't commented on my analysis of the magnitude of forces.  To
>> > me, that's pretty telling... the forces were so low as to not cause
>> > any problem at all even if they are unbalanced.  Do you disagree with
>> > my comments?  The inertia of most ships will be enough that forces
>> > of the magnitude you described will cause it to wiggle a bit but
>> > not enough to throw it out of control.
>> 
>> I think you are underestimating the magnitude of the forces. For one
>> thing, the reason dirigbles quit being used by the *military* wasn't
>> the Hindenburg accident. It was when in short order we lost two US Navy
>> dirigibles that got ripped apart by storm forces. They couldn't outrun
>> the storms, and they got mangled.
>
> I used the force that you calculated.  I didn't estimate it myself.
> It ended up being fairly trivial, like .02 G's of acceleration on
> a big metal plate without even a ship attached to it.  I think that you
> are way overestimating the forces and your numbers back that up.
>
>> A starship is likely strong enough that it won't get mangled. But
>> anything that can take a modern airliner and *throw* it 10,000 feet in
>> less than a minute is something that a starship with CG/CP problems is
>> going to regret running into. 
>
> Avoiding bad storms is something airplanes do even today.  I'm assuming
> that anyone flying anything will avoid them.

The airplanes that avoid them are flying at 300 knots. That's a *lot*
faster than your "<50 mph". The storms move faster than that.

>> Sure, you've got a high thrust to weight ratio (by your assumptions).
>> But your thrust is along the ship's thrust axis. And the winds can
>> *change* that without warning. The thrusters have to play catch up to
>> get you pointed back in the right direction. 
>
> Well, my assumption is also that starships have some vectored thrust,
> both for maneuvering and to compensate for a shifting center of mass.
>
>> You can try to keep your speed relative to the *ground* down to 30 mph
>> or the like. But trying to keep it to that relative to the *air* is
>> pretty much futile. There are regions where you'll have the wind speed
>> change by over 100 mph in a matter of yards. And I'm not talking about
>> storms. 
>> 
>> Add in storms that you can't avoid (without moving fast enough to run
>> into stability problems) and things like clear air turbulence (that
>> your ship isn't equipped to detect) and it's going to be *real* hairy.
>
> What is needed to detect clear air turbulence?

Some rather specialized sensors last time I heard. And they were to
*attempt* to detect it. Given some accidents in recent history, they
may not have worked. You have to be able to tell that *dry* air is
moving relative to other dry air, and neither radar nor IR get much of
a return off of dry air. 

> Also, any ship or airplaine or other vehicle moving through an atmosphere
> is going to have problems with unexpected turbulence and storms.

What I'm trying to say is that you have to *expect* a certain level of
turbulence, and that it will affect the "slow", unstreamlined ship a
*lot*. 

> I'm
> just saying that an unstreamlined ship will be able to operate in an
> atmosphere relatively safely, just not as efficiently or safely as a
> craft designed for that purpose.

I think that it is likely to be about as "safe" as shooting rapids in a
canoe. It can be done, but it requires a lot of experience, and is
better done in a craft more suited to the task (a kayak or a raft).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 07:28:47 -0400
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #486

I would really like a copy of Supplement #5 to complete my collection.

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

> -----Original Message-----
> Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 21:05:58 EDT
> From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
> 
> In a message dated 98-05-13 13:29:09 EDT, you write:
> 
> << 
>  which one was supplement 5?
>  
>  
>   >>
> Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in
> Azhanti
> High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 
> 
> I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies.
> How many
> on the list are looking for this?
> 
> Marc Miller
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:30:10 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

On Thu, 14 May 1998, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> >> And CG/CP stability gets important at fairly low speeds. Remember, with
> >> that van you were driving, you had the friction of the tires on the
> >> road to help keep you stable. With a rocket or a Traveller ship, all
> >> you have are thrusters. So it's like steering an airboat. 
> >
> > But these strong forces which would move a ship 10,000 feet in a minute
> > would easily roll a van or toss it off the road.  Not only did that not
> > happen, but the van stayed in its lane quite easily.
> 
> Try it on an icy road. I've seen VW buses flipped and worse, and semis
> pulling empty trailer go skating all over the place due to wind gusts.
> 

Some years ago we had a driving student in the prosess of taking his
driving test that was blown over 90 feet of the road onto a field. This
was in the fall (I think) with a medium sized car :-)


> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:31:03 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

At 12:46 PM 14/05/98 +0200, Hans Rancke wrote:

>I think Vland has been mentioned as the official home port of one of the
>free traders in the Spinward Marches (the EMPRESS NICHOLLE perhaps?)
>Somehow I don't see Vland as a tax haven, but that's just my opinion.
>
>One of the ways I justify the very low Imperial pensions is by saying that
>Imperial pensions are not subject to taxation by planetary governments. 
>Perhaps the same applies to interstellar ships.

If this applied to people as well as for ships. Say all those paid by the
Imperial government or by businesses that 'Imperial' as opposed to
'Planetary' in nature Travellers truely become a class apart from their
planet-bound fellows. You would have a whole class of people who are immune
to local taxation and who are paid in Imperial Credits, instead of local
stuff, regardless of the era of your campaign.

This could lead to some intresting business proposals coming the PCs way,
as loacl try to dodge taxes.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:36:41 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Total ships in the Imperium

Jo Grant writes:

>Summated values for the whole Imperium:
>                              Number of worlds:                    7935
>                             Total Population :      12,903,285,535,532
>Peacetime Naval Revenue (TCS, Starport A only):  $1,596,550,999,319,370
>     Total Shipyard Capacity (Starport A only):          32,959,453,188t

That's total shipyard capacity (hereafter shortened SC) available to the
government and dosen't say anything definite about the civilian capacity
(though I agree that there most likely is some correlation). Consider: By
TCS rules the total SC can lie unsused for weeks and months if you don't
have any new construction going on. Then a damaged ship can arrive and tie
up the total capacity for a few months whereupon the ship is fixed and the
SC can lie unused for further months whereupon the government can decide
to build some new ships and get the shipyards going in a very short while,
tying up the total shipyard capacity for the next two years with nothing
left over for annual maintenance or the civilian side of things.

Furthermore, the whole matter of maintenance and replacement of worn-out
ships (as opposed to shot-up ships) is hidden from the player in the TCS
rules.

IMO this can best be explained by a large hidden shipyard capacity (civilian
and naval routine work (maintenance and replacement of worn-out ships)) that
can, in emergencies, expand by a certain percentage (I don't know how big
a percentage) and take on unexpected naval work.
 
> Assume the following:
> 40 year lifespan for ships (based on mortgage period)

There are canonical examples of warships that have been in use for over a
century (_Azhanti High Lightning_).

>= 2.5% per year * 2.8 years to build = 7%
>Annual maintenance = 2% of total tonnage

As I mentioned above, all that is taken care of separately and does not come
out the 1T/1000 citizens shipyard capacity.

>New builds and unscheduled maintenance = 1% of total tonnage

Or almost none if there are no unexpected losses, ie. in peacetime.
 
>Using TCS rules you can calculate the naval budget.

Note that this gives a higher figure than using the _Striker_ rules. Cr500/
citizen would correspond to 5% of GWP and wouldn't include the army. The
Imperial worlds may only get 3% (in peacetime) and would use a slice of that
on the army.

>>Total Naval Tonnage in service :   31,931,019,986t
>>Total Merchant Tonnage in service :  297,663,511,896t
>It is interesting, but it turns out that the proportion of naval ships to
>merchant ships is about 1:10, exactly what I herd proffered as the ideal
>escort:trader ratio.

In what connection? If in connection to surface shipping, then it is
propably not all that applicable to Traveller style space travel. Also
remember that 70% of the money goes to planetary defense and a fairly large
slice of those 70% (between 6 and 40%) goes to the planetary army. Of the
remainder, an unspecified, but IMO very large, part goes to system defenses
which cannot be used to escort ships outside the system.

>On the cargo side, there is another assumption being made that all cargo
>holds are full. This may seem optimistic. My knee-jerk reaction is to
>assume that they run on 50% capacity.

In my calculations I usually assume 90% utilization on the average.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:44:49 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Expanded life support costs

Here is a suggestion for some slightly more detailed life support costs that
will allow referees to tailor them to fit individual situations.

REVISED LIFE SUPPORT RULES
==========================

LIFE SUPPORT: Each person living on a starship involves an overhead cost for
food, fresh linen, minor repairs at starports, occasional cleaning, tuning of
various equipment, and other sundries. The cost may vary, but averages out
over time to one of several different levels:

MINIMAL: Cr1,000/month. This entail the cheapest of food, using air and water
filters to the absolute limit, skimping on cleanliness, ignoring many minor
malfunctions, and gradually letting things slide. This can be kept up for
quite a while, but at the cost of letting the ship get seedier and seedier.
No one would willingly live like that unless forced by lack of funds.

BARELY ADEQUATE: Cr2,000/month. Somewhat better food, air and water filters
changed a bit oftener, occasional cleanups, occasional repairs. This is what
some of the seedier tramp freighters get by with, but makes it very difficult
to get passengers.

ADEQUATE: Cr3,000/month. Average food, reasonable cleanliness, repairs as
needed. This is what passengers travelling by tramp liners are resigned to.

GOOD: Cr4,000/month. Good food, filters replaced every trip, high degree of
cleanliness, all broken fixtures fixed asap. This is the level of comfort
expected by Mid and High passengers on regular ships (Except that High
Passengers usually get even better food (see below).

LUXURIOUS: Cr4,500+/month. The difference between Good and Luxurious lies
almost solely in the quality of the food. You can spend almost any amount of
money on food, but the extra Cr500 alone is enough for really good food and
corresponds to what High Passengers expect.

Passengers
==========

Because passengers only stay onboard ships for an average of 8 days or so,
life support costs for passengers are paid per jump and not per month.

Economy Passage:	1000
Middle Passage:		1200
High Passage:		1400


- --------------------
What do you think?



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #487
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, May 14 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 488



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OK who knows this...
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Early Vilani Cuisine
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: energy weapons in T4.1?
Re: energy weapons in T4.1?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
traveller CD?
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)
Re: Drop tank glitch? 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 05:55:30 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this...

Volker,

	H.I.W.G stood for History of the Imperium Working Group and
there were alot of articles written by many people. Mine were all
about the Ancients and etc. If ever I find out where they are, I'll
post it to the mailer.

Odin
>From grei5001@uni-trier.de Wed May 13 14:14:55 1998
:
>>=20
>> Hello Folks,
>>=20
>>         I'm looking for the documents from the H.I.W.G (history
>> of the Imperium Working Group). I use to be the Verge sector analyst
>> and I'd like to find some of those articles. My articles were all
>> on the Ancients and their sites within the Verge sector.
>Hmmm, i=B4d like this info as well.
>If you permit, odin, i=B4d like to also put them on my web-page, where 
i =
>am trying to collect all
>official and unofficial info about the Ancients
>
>--=20
>					 Volker
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     /----------------------------------------------------------\
>    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
>   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
>  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
> /  Please don=B4t try to stop me-I=B4m just barely ahead of insanity   
\
>/--------------------------------------------------------------------\
>
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:24:48 +0100
From: "Harvester" <Harvester@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

>>I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
>>on the list are looking for this?
>
>I could use one.

So could I.

Harvester@btinternet.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 06:26:40 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

Marc,

	I would love to obtain a copy of this item...

Odin

>From owner-traveller@phaser.showcase.mpgn.com Wed May 13 18:08:30 
>Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in Azhanti
>High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 
>
>I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
>on the list are looking for this?
>
>Marc Miller
>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:34:21 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

>>...You, and your crew, are avoiding living expenses (and taxation?) 
>> on an expensive high TL world...

>Bear in mind that a good food and lodging can be had dirtside for Cr4,800/year.
>Life support on a ship is supposedly Cr48,000/year, TEN times as much.

True. But you are still avoiding paying both. Standard accounting would
still insist that the live-in owner(s) set aside a percentage as
personal use. 

Note also that under standard accounting the owners salary does not
count as expenses, but as an appropriation from profit. Again, this
makes you profit look even better - though of course you are no better
off - don't you just love accounting!?

IMO the Cr4,800 figure is very low.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:39:55 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

> What is needed to detect clear air turbulence?

I have read, sometime in the last year, that some Californian university
(UCSC?) has been able to measure clear air turbulence several miles
ahead of a plane using a laser, and was working on a model for
commercial aircraft.  It was probably in New Scientist.  Can anybody
confirm this?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:20:04 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

I like the shooting the rapids analogy. I think of the Azhanti High
Lightnings. They are "semi-streamlined", and thus are capable of gas giant
skimming, but usually don't (they use fuel tenders). The supplement (the one
Marc is considering photocopying) mentioned that the ships only skimmed in
emergencies, and all sorts of fun things could happen to them (losing an
externally mounted tender, or tank ruptures, or drive damage, or even a LONG
crash dive to the bottom of the gravity well if you roll real bad) when they
skimmed a gas giant.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:53:06 -0400
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisine

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>     Nope e. coli would have been carried in the guts of the humans brought to
>> Viland and would have been dropped into the local water supplies with the 
>> first
>> shit they took. ;) I kid you not!  But to the best of my knowledge e. coli
>> isn't a fermenting bacteria.
>
>No, but the "yeast" in "yeast infection" *is*. And that *could* get
>carried by people easily enough.

So that's why Vilani beer tastes like...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:56:14 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

How about a tiny, remote-controlled, contragrav-propelled spy camera. 
Visible and IR light, with sound pickup and digital encrypted
transmission.  'For business-related use only', of course.  :o)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:07:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

>But, its fun.  Like "Starship Troopers".  Which I know did not follow the
>book, but you have to admit, you did have fun when you saw the movie.
>
I saw it with a friend who turned to me and said, "I know where the 75th
is.", just after the under ground installation was mentioned.  The 75th
Infantry Regiment is the parent organisation of the US Army Rangers.  He
served in the 75th.
James W. Brewer
jwbrewer@ucsd.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:11:33 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: energy weapons in T4.1?

where and how do I get theese documents?


Erwin Fritz wrote:

> The latest version of the T4.1 Skills Text document makes no
> mention of personal energy weapons. During the last session
> my players were asking about it.
>
> Does anyone have any idea of how they'll work in the new
> rules?
> --
> Erwin Fritz
> Unix/NT/LAN/DBA Guy
> Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
> http://www.glja.com



- --
Robert the Lonely

Http://www.geocities.com/area51/corridor/4467

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:06:27 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: energy weapons in T4.1?

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Erwin Fritz wrote:
>
> > The latest version of the T4.1 Skills Text document makes no
> > mention of personal energy weapons. During the last session
> > my players were asking about it.
> Since they aren't mentioned  in T4 either, I'm assuming that there is
> no change whatssoever.
>

No change from what? TNE? MT? I guess what I'm asking is: what arethe rules for
energy weapons?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:32:00 PDT
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

>From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
>
>I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. How many
>on the list are looking for this?
>
>Marc Miller
>

I would be interested in copies of any supplements that I do not already 
have.

PZ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:04:42 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> How about marketing real operable 1/10th scale Scout/courier grav cars
> to sell to ex scouts.
> 
> Is there anyone out their who feels like designing one ?  Note that the
> grav car will not have much headroom and might be best designed so that
> the operator & any passengers are reclined.
> 

Actually, with most of the ex-scouts I've played and seen, they're more
likely to drive either grav racing bikes, the equivalent of a beat-up
old pickup with three different colored fenders and one missing one, or
the surplus air-raft that came with their scout-surplus starship (which,
come to think of it, sounds an awful lot like that beat-up old pickup
truck...;-)

A 3m wedge streamlined hull actually has a considerable amount of space
in it; check out the design for the military light recon vehicles on my
Infini-V page at 

http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/csc_page.html



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:58:23 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

When I accentally restarted this old debate (sorry) this is more like what I
had in mind. I had forgotten that the AHL was considered "semi-streamlined".
It's quite obvious from looking at pictures of the ship that it IS NOT
hypersonically streamlined, yet, with risks it can perform fuel skimming.

The point I was trying for was the fact that a ship without the "smooth
skin" apparent in hyper sonic aircraft could scoop fuel and thus the typical
model of a rocket blazing through a GG's atmosphere is not IMHO accurate. I
beleive that the process is a slower, dipping action, very dependant on CG.

I have never thought tha an open frame ship (such as the ST Enterprise)
could perform this operation, however a ship of a configuration simalar to
the (ST) Voyager, which is an example of semi-streamlined, could, given
sufficient CG to counteract the GG's gravity.

I guess what I'm really trying to get to is that any streamlined
configuration SHOULD be able to fuel skim, will appropriate additional
risks, and that this should include semi-streamlined hull shapes such as
Box, Sphere and possibly Close configured hulls.

How I have always played it, is that these configurations can skim, at
greater risk the further from and airframe configuration the ship is, but
probably shouldn't. Additionally, I typically concider the processing time
for the fuel to be purified, to be the defining factor in how long a ship
stays in atmoshere. My take on it is that the fuel goes from scoop to
purifier, where the none usable elements of the atmoshere are discharged
back into the atmoshere (most likely through a catalytic reaction) and the
usable "light elemental gases" are compressed and stored in the fuel tanks.

If this is not the case than the fuel tankage should be conciderably larger
for a ship using GG skimming. The volume stored in the tanks during skimming
would have to be large enough to produce sufficient fuel after it was
refined, Since the exact make up of each worlds atmoshere is different this
would be a real pain in the a#$ to calculate. Or the ship would have to make
mutiple runs with seperate tanks for "clean" and "dirty" fuel.


- -----Original Message-----
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere


>I like the shooting the rapids analogy. I think of the Azhanti High
>Lightnings. They are "semi-streamlined", and thus are capable of gas giant
>skimming, but usually don't (they use fuel tenders). The supplement (the one
>Marc is considering photocopying) mentioned that the ships only skimmed in
>emergencies, and all sorts of fun things could happen to them (losing an
>externally mounted tender, or tank ruptures, or drive damage, or even a LONG
>crash dive to the bottom of the gravity well if you roll real bad) when
they
>skimmed a gas giant.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:01:48 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

>But the computer program for a ship not intended to enter atmosphere
>is going to be programmed to assume that *all* forces go thru the CG.
>The wind forces going thru the CP will produce deflection forces that
>don't act in a way the computer is programmed to handle.

The CG of the ship will change depending on how full its tanks are,
cargo load, bits missing in combat, etc. The ship has to be programmed
to cope with this, so it should make a decent attempt at self
correction. Admittedly it would have to react very quickly.

Wouldn't a wind effect have the same effect as a thruster firing at that
point (or directly opposite point)?

The program has to cope with thrusters at different positions and angles
from the variable CG anyway, isn't this just one more?

Most of the *airframe* ship designs I have seen put most of the mass at
the back - drives, power plant, cargo. These should also have a tendency
to fly backwards!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:14:58 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

Paul Zumstein wrote:

> >From: CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com>
> >
> >I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies.
> How many
> >on the list are looking for this?
>
> I would be interested in copies of any supplements that I do not already
> have.
>

Me too.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 09:45:17 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: traveller CD?

There was a project going on for a while involving putting the traveller
documentation onto a CD.  What happened to that?

douglas

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:48:20 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

>The G Store first showed up in one of the DGP journals -- it's sort of the
>Traveller equivalent of The Sharper Image, a store that carries Tech Level 16
>stuff, even on lower-tech planets.
>
>[snip]  I've come up with a few cool ideas, such as:
>
[snip]
>
>Anybody have any cool ideas?

A Dress (or suit) which is holographic, therefore reconfigurable using
different data chip inserts.

Just remember that the wearer is generally wearing very little underneath
(aside from the holographic projector, with vars. components worn over the
shoulder and on a belt).

Data Chips for the Dress;

- -A colorful 'waterfall' which divides as the wearer walks, showing a
serious amount of "leg" according to setting.

- -Swirling tendrils of grey smoke, which *just* strategically cover vital areas.

- -A Fabulous gown of scraps of iridescent, airy fabric that lifts and
flutters as the wearer walks.  The pieces of fabric apparently unconnected
to the wearer or each other, but always fulfilling local "decency"
standards (barely).

There is a small (or not so small) problem or two with this dress.
Corrected by the item below.

The Gravitic Bustier; Ever need support but couldn't wear a visible garment
where is was needed most?  This narrow belt will project a small amount of
lift right where you need it, and can be worn under even the slimmest of
outfits.

Note that the devices above require batteries, batteries have a tendancy to
run out of juice at inconvenient times.

Other stuff:

ZapperShave; A quick-shaver that uses two lasers; one to measure the range
to your skin, the other to incinerate the hairs at the root.  Better than
an Atra or a Norelco!

StatClean; Place your fine garments in this innocuous looking box and
they'll be clean in seconds.  A small device passes a positive static
charge to the garments, leading them to repel small particles of dust and
skin, as well as most stains, a negative charge activates along the inner
surface of the box, pulling those particles away and drawing off the static
charge.

Gal Friday; The latest in handcomp personal assistant software from Ling
Standard Products has all the features you expect; Calendar organizer,
automatic reminder, expense report preparation, contact management, all in
the form of Friday, the holographic personal assistant.  She is projected
in full motion color, and at 25cm tall. is the largest handheld
holo-assistant on the market.  She, of course, still has the voice only
mode for use when having a handheld holographic woman appear might not be
appropriate.  Available with a variety of appearances, voices,
personalities, and sexes.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:02:45 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

>Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>> And let's not even discuss that Cranberry Lambic stuff.  They finally
>> dumped a lot of it by marketing a "Winter Gift Pack" with eight bottles of
>> four different types of Sam Adams, including the Cranberry, then marking it
>> down to less then a six-pack.
>>
>> Funny thing is, a friend convinced me to try it on tap (at the "Sam Adams
>> Brew Pub" - living in Boston has it's advantages) and it wasn't half bad.
>
>Have you tried the Raspberry Wheat Sam Adams?
>It tastes like Crunchberry Cereal, one of the Captain Crunch flavors.
>

I stay away from fruit beers except in extreme circumstances, and wrt lemon
beer (such as Pete's Wicked Summer Brew).

I had five of a six pack in my fridge of Pyramid Apricot Lager that just
sat there for months...until Lesley Grant (Jo's wife, of 101 Cargos and 101
Plots fame) who likes such things came and finished it off, thank goodness.

Hmmm, gives me some cargo ideas.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:05:06 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

Buston, John wrote:

> True. But you are still avoiding paying both. Standard accounting would
> still insist that the live-in owner(s) set aside a percentage as
> personal use.

Unless you are incorporated and then it is an expense of the company.

> Note also that under standard accounting the owners salary does not
> count as expenses, but as an appropriation from profit.

That's why you incorporate, so your salary becomes an expense. The
balance
is paid out as dividends and is taxed normally at a much reduced rate.

> Again, this
> makes your profit look even better - though of course you are no better
> off - don't you just love accounting!?

It all depends on who will be reading the statement's prepared from the
accounting ??? records and whether you are buying selling or paying
taxes.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:58:29 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> 
> John Buston writes:
> 
> >Do the traveller books mention anywhere the effects of bringing up a
> >family on a starship?
> 
> No. But you can figure out that it is very expensive. Figure a child takes
> up half a stateroom and use up half the normal life support of an adult.
> That will cost you Cr24,000/year for life support and the revenue of half
> a stateroom, anything from Cr100,000/year and down, depending on how often
> your passenger list is full up. That's assuming the spouse is doing the
> job of a crewmember. If he/she is deadheading (if that's the word I want),
> then it's costing you another Cr48,000-248,000. If they were living on a
> planet, food and lodging would cost Cr2,400/year for a child and Cr4,800/year
> for a spouse.
> 
So it's for the idle rich then. The lowly just visit once in a while. Or
are
you maybe suggesting that one should have a 'lady/gentleman of the
night' aboard
and charge them 1/2 of their earnings to 'cover expenses'.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 08:46:19 -0700
From: Jim Cooper <Jim_Cooper@bc.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> CardSharks <CardSharks@aol.com> Marc Miller wrote
> 
> > Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in
> > Azhanti High Lightning, and thus extremely rare.
> 
> > I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies.
> > How many on the list are looking for this?
> 
> I have the real thing.  Are you still considering doing reprints of the,
> much rarer, Journal of the Travellers Aid Society #1 ?  I have not been
> able to find it anywhere.

For any that are interested, I have both, and with Marc's OK am willing
to make copies available. I believe he has given a more or less blanket
OK to copy out of print, hard to find works, but I stand to be corrected
on that.

Jim Cooper

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:31:07 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

At 11:58 AM 5/14/98 -0400, you wrote:
>When I accentally restarted this old debate (sorry) this is more like what I
>had in mind. I had forgotten that the AHL was considered "semi-streamlined".
>It's quite obvious from looking at pictures of the ship that it IS NOT
>hypersonically streamlined, yet, with risks it can perform fuel skimming.
>
>The point I was trying for was the fact that a ship without the "smooth
>skin" apparent in hyper sonic aircraft could scoop fuel and thus the typical
>model of a rocket blazing through a GG's atmosphere is not IMHO accurate. I
>beleive that the process is a slower, dipping action, very dependant on CG.


IIRC, in the adventure Broadsword it mentions that Broadsword is on the
planet's surface, yet the planet has an atmosphere.  Based on High Guard,
the spherical hull form is unstreamlined.  I would, IMTU, allow any
reasonably designed hull form to make planetfall, but not to "fly" in the
atmosphere.  Just a slow descent and ascent.

My $.02


Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 10:39:42 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really)

Not to excessively defend a movie I haven't seen, but...

>How does one navigate an intercept course that takes you through the tail
>of the comet where ice chunks (as big as houses) are hurtling past you?
>How slow-moving and small would one of these fragments have to be to bounce
>*harmlessly* off of your hull?

If you're roughly at rest relative to the head of the comet then the chunks
aren't moving *too* fast relative to you (since they're just accelerated by
radiation pressure and tidal forces; the big chunks in the tail would be 
moving very slowly.)

>Does sunlight striking a comet's surface cause (nearly) instantaneous
>surface eruptions of gas and whatnot?
To be honest, no-one knows. But it's a big step for a movie to realize that
comets do outgas in response to sunlight  (whether it should be instantaneous
or not...)

>[comet fragmentation]
Comets are (probably) very loosely held together - their self-gravity is 
weak and they have almost no mechanical strength (about the texture of snow.)
The exact scenario described does sound pretty unlikely, admittedly.

>How can a government design and construct a craft like the one depicted in
>the movie in less than a year?
I don't know exactly what it looks like, but I did read that Shoemaker 
suggested an Orion-type, which is a fairly plausible way to get a high delta-V
craft put together quickly. If I had to do it I'd use the russian core module
being built for ISS, add a habitation module, and put a big Orion plate 
behind it.

>And why did it take the craft five months to reach this distance with a
>state-of-the-art nuclear propulsion system?
It's not just distance but velocity - you have to arrive at the same place
as your target at the same velocity, which for a high delta-V object like
an incoming comet is hard. Even an Orion has limitations (especially if
you want to come home afterwards.) Several months is probably a perfectly
plausible delay.

Anyway, except for the very ending, it still sounds like Deep Impact is a 
big step forward in comet movie technology - while Armageddon sounds like
a big step backwards. (The very fact that we're arguing about whether the
onset timescale for solar-pumped outgassing or the behaviour of an Orion-
propelled ship are realistic, rather than whether an "asteriod the size of
Texas" (Armageddon) could appear out of nowhere should tell us something...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:53:48 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Drop tank glitch? 

> Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
> 
> >>...WHY does it take so much longer to pump fuel from a
> >> collapsible tank than from a rigid tank?
> > 
> >Ever empty a waterbed?  <grin>
> 
> No, but I'd bet you haven't tried doing it with the help of a high-capacity
> electrical pump, either. 

Gravity & a garden hose works pretty good, but it STILL takes about 4 or 5
hours to drain it.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #488
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subscribe traveller-digest local-traveller@your.domain.net

A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".

Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 489



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #427
Horror and otherrelated topics...
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Where is this article?
Re: Goin' to the G Store!
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
Re: Where is this article?
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Profitable starships
Re: Hijacking summation
LIDAR
Comparative TLs doc
HIWG
existing ship designs?
I'm Back
Wind Speeds
Re: OK who knows this... II
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Latin
Re: Where is this article?
Re: OK who knows this... II
CU-Seeme "Live" game.
An Exercise for the Reader
Re: Hijacking
RE: Latin
Re: Relative Prices
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 13:48:20 -0500
From: "Goosby, Mark" <Mark.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1998 #427

This is just a heads up for the gearheaded among you.  Starting  in the
April/May edition of Launchspace Magazine (The magazine of the Space
Industry), there is the first of a series of installments on tethers and
tethered flight characteristics.  There are many good ideas in here for
emergency power generation, etc....

John Mark Goosby (tm)
*	"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai
*	Network Analyst - NASA PrISMS Contract
*	WANG Government Services
*	John.Goosby@msfc.nasa.gov
*	goose@nmc5.pscni.nasa.gov

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:17:45 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Horror and otherrelated topics...

Hello folks,

	Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?
I was thinking along the lines of a plague that has the effect on 
corpses like 'Day of the Dead' type moves. Or you could introduce
Werewolves or Vampires into the traveller setting along with 'Magic'.
	Think of all the different things you could get a group of
high tech junkies into having to deal with any of these nightmares?
I've used the Vampire like plague before and the players way of 
handling the problem was to Nuke the planet with the problem and shoot
down any escaping ships. Well it worked but that wasn't the way I
had planned for them to solve the problem, but players being players
nothing ever goes as planned<g>!
	No as to a system for handling Magic well I was figured
that I'd treat it like it was three skills.
	
	Magic Control
	Magic knowledge
	Magic Research
	
	Now I use a exp system and I would simple make these skills
into a percent(%) score and the player could add exp points to any
skill to raise their ability. I would base a player's starting roll
off their related stats, and then they could increase them as they
went along. Well this is just a idea how to handle this issue, what
I'd like to hear is if anyone else has tackled this issue? If so
what did they do and etc?

Odin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:25:44 -0500
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> IIRC, in the adventure Broadsword it mentions that Broadsword is on the
> planet's surface, yet the planet has an atmosphere.  Based on High Guard,
> the spherical hull form is unstreamlined.

In the same adventure, the ship description for the Broadsword says that
it can land, but only on worlds with Vaccuum or Trace atmospheres.  It's
not clear that the adventure writer remembered this (or else they were
too busy getting away from that Zhodani strike cruiser....)  The Keith
illo with the Broadsword grounded is almost certainly set in an airless
environment.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:01:09 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: Where is this article?

Hello Folks,

	I am trying to design a order of Knights for my campaign
and I am seeking a specific article that I believe was in one of
the old Journals. It was a encounter adventure, were the players
would find a derelict space craft from the current T4 time and
there was a Ghost on board of a Order of Knights that since
disappeared or etc. 
	What I'd like to do is find out which book this might be 
in and use the information of this lost order to create it in my
game. Does anyone remember this adventure and if so any idea what
book it might be in?

Odin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:29:57 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Goin' to the G Store!

Fusion+ powered chainsaw.
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:38:33 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 10:32 AM 5/13/98 EDT, you wrote:
>I would guess that it has something to do with the restrictive gun laws.
>Demand hasn't decreased, and the limited supply has driven up costs. This
>suits gun control advocates as the more expensive weapons get, the less
likely
>that the masses will be able to afford them. BTW the ultimate in hypocrisy
>(assuming that this data I read is true...), when Sen. Fienstein (very anti
>gun) was the mayor of San Francisco, she was one of only 7 concealed carry
>hangun permit holders in the city.

She also became Mayor after Dan White, a former city supervisor, bought a
gun, climbed through a window at City Hall and gunned down Mayor George
Moscone and Sup. Harvy Milk.  At one point she had 32 death threats against
her, for everything from her fiscal policy, to be a woman, to being a Jew.
>
>
- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 15:55:43 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

At 12:17 PM 5/14/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Hello folks,
>
>	Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?
>I was thinking along the lines of a plague that has the effect on 
>corpses like 'Day of the Dead' type moves. Or you could introduce
>Werewolves or Vampires into the traveller setting along with 'Magic'.
>	Think of all the different things you could get a group of
>high tech junkies into having to deal with any of these nightmares?
>I've used the Vampire like plague before and the players way of 
>handling the problem was to Nuke the planet with the problem and shoot
>down any escaping ships. Well it worked but that wasn't the way I
>had planned for them to solve the problem, but players being players
>nothing ever goes as planned<g>!

David Bischoff wrote two books that I have used as a mini campaign:
Nightworld, and Vampires of Nightworld.  They were set on a planet that was
originaly developed as a resort ala Westworld but with greatly increased
technology, tech 18+.  Due to the inevitable war or political turmoil it
was isolated and the monsters started to live out the roles they were
programmed for.  The world was developed to appear Victorian, ranging from
the 1880's to early 1900's.

By the time of the books, the monsters had become mostly free willed or
under the will of more powerful monsters.  Vampires, werewolves,
jabberwocks, and dragons were just some of the beasties listed.

I started the game with the players booking passage on a liner on behalf a
noble patron for one reason or another.  As the ship was getting ready for
jump, it is attacked and thus the inevitable misjump occurs taking our band
of heros and monster fodder into a decaying orbit around the planet.

The goal of the campaign was to get home, but after discovering some of the
background, they decieded to stay and sent one of the loyal npc's home to
collect the familys and friends and bring them back.  They are still there.



Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:01:08 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Where is this article?

This was an adventure in four parts IIRC, and was in the DGP Travellers
Digest.  Very cool adventure.

At 12:01 PM 5/14/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Hello Folks,
>
>	I am trying to design a order of Knights for my campaign
>and I am seeking a specific article that I believe was in one of
>the old Journals. 

Kurt Feltenberger

We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act but a
habit.
- --- Aristotle ---

mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:52:10 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

At 11:58 AM 14/05/98 -0400, Michael D. Peters wrote:

>How I have always played it, is that these configurations can skim, at
>greater risk the further from and airframe configuration the ship is, but
>probably shouldn't. Additionally, I typically concider the processing time
>for the fuel to be purified, to be the defining factor in how long a ship
>stays in atmoshere. My take on it is that the fuel goes from scoop to
>purifier, where the none usable elements of the atmoshere are discharged
>back into the atmoshere (most likely through a catalytic reaction) and the
>usable "light elemental gases" are compressed and stored in the fuel tanks.

I like this idea that skimming time is derermined by fuel processor through
capacity. For most ships this means that it'll take several days, as
opposed to a few hours. It seems more atmosphereic having a ship blundering
through a gas giant's atmosphere half blind with the crew's stress level
steadily rising with every buffet the ship takes. Even if the task rolls
are no more difficult I think skimming will seem more dangerous if it works
this way.

This also applies to ocean refueling. With the current rules quite a lot of
ships full up in a few hours, and be gone with almost no risk of being
caught on a low pop world. However if they have to sit there for two days
while their purifier churns away things get much more exciting.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:23:02 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Profitable starships

>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Profitable starships
...
>One of the ways I justify the very low Imperial pensions is by saying that
>Imperial pensions are not subject to taxation by planetary governments. 
>Perhaps the same applies to interstellar ships.

  This could imply starport duty-free stores, and a provision for ex-
Imperial services personnel to transport freely goods for personal use,
otherwise they'd require huge amounts of paperwork to deal with getting
tax credits past the local VAT, if that consumption tax functioned
largely as the income tax.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 12:23:09 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation

Hello,
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation
>
>Steven Hudson writes:
>
>>>Certainly no hijacker can know ahead of time whether his ship will arrive
>>>two days before or two days after another ship that left at the same time.
>>>If the route has a few ships per day going to the same destination, his
>>>odds goes way down.
>> 
>>  Part of the original assumption was having anywhere from a day to a week
>>before leaving for the announced destination.
>
>I don't understand that comment. Wouldn't that give the forces of Law and
>Order _more_ time to announce the schedule to the next destination?

  Sorry, an extra day to a week for the freighter to forward its itinerary
and manifest (the latter quite possibly incomplete); the higher the traffic
level the greater the chance of a suitable message-carrier being available.

...
>>There are still systems out there where the ref is going to have a hard
>>time believing in any scheduled traffic whatsoever;
>
>Weren't we talking about systems with enough traffic to make a drop tank
>operation profitable?

  Yes, I'm just stating that the conditions discussed shouldn't be
operant universally - although from a POV regarding traffic flows
the difference is negligible.

...
>Not quite. We were over all this a few months ago. It's true that any
>merchant ship that arrives at a system with no military patrol ships
...
>where prevention isn't worth while, the pirate will have to wait months
>to get a shot at a victim; months during which his ship is not making
>any money.

  We'd best avoid this if we don't want to be hunted down by peasant 
villages with pitchforks and torches, buy rather than using a starship,
I suspect that using a small, possibly _very_ cheap spacecraft, for the
odd bit of informal acquisition might be somewhat different. I still
think that the numbers for career piracy are incredibly bad unless you
assume that enforcement is largely impossible and/or a very low priority.

>>  It depends on the circumstances, of course, but in a peacetime Imperium
>>the conditions for dedicated (i.e., career) piracy will be extremely hard
>>to come by.
>>        - strategic sanctuary (for construction, resupply, selling)
>>        - avoidance of armed patrols / intervention
>
>Agreed. Much depends, I suppose, on whether or not you believe a ship can
>be disguised so much that it cannot be identified again later. I tend to
>think not, but I admit that's just an opinion. I do think that if ships
>cannot be adequately disguised, then captured ships _has_ to be moved to
>another jurisdiction and never, ever come back to the original area of
>operation. Starships are so expensive that _many_ manhours would be
>dedicated to recovering them if such was possible.

  Yep. And computerised record-keeping can be extremely cheap to run.
Even if you forge papers, eventually the authorities may realize that
the same ship is claiming to be in two places at once; obviously you
issue two search and seizure warrants and start grilling the people
you acquire. The same goes for ID numbers on the truly expensive
components (from HG; PP, J-Drive, maybe the comp - nothing else).

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:38:21 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: LIDAR

Could someone please explain what a LIDAR is, and what the difference
between a LIDAR and a LADAR is. I came across a LIDAR on a ship design, and
thought it was a LADAR until I realised that it's volume, cost, etc were
different.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 16:13:55 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Comparative TLs doc

A .txt document listing details of comparative TLs for CT, MT, GURPS,
and TimeLords can be found at:

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~jservey/TimeLords/techlvl2.txt

It is, of course, subjective but it contains some interesting thoughts,
IMO.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 17:56:18 EDT
From: Kagehira <Kagehira@aol.com>
Subject: HIWG

Odin,

	If you know the document # I might be able to help you. Email me privately.


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 14:59:02 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: existing ship designs?

Does anyone have FFS2-compliant (or even SSDS/QSDS) errata-free designs for
a relatively standard Free or Far Trader at TL-12 or 15? 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:24:57 +1200
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: I'm Back

Well thank you to all the people who helped during my temporary 
crisis. My old ISP now has new owners and is apparently secure (at
least in the short term anyway). In the interum I've been working away
on my interstellar Wars material, and have decided that since other
parts of my site are likely to expand in the near future to
concentrate my own traveller site on this work and my Magellanic
Clouds material. I hope to find good homes for the rest, and it will
remain available on my site until I do.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/abuse/abuse.htm (child abuse site)
****************************************************************************
"Worst thing about being a multiple is filling out the name tags"
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:56:34 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Wind Speeds

The jet stream averages 35 mph in the summer and 75 mph in the winter.
Speeds as high as 200 mph have been recorded, but that is unusual.

Thunderstorms don't typically move very fast, usually something like
50-100 miles per day.  Austin, Texas is about 170 miles from Houston,
Texas.  I've lived in both places.  Weather takes a day or two to
get from one to the other.  Winds in thunderstorms don't normally
exceed 30-50 mph at the *most*.  Above that and you have a tropical
storm, a storm of unusually high winds.  Winds of 75 mph and higher
are only found in hurricanes.

Now obviously turbulence can be more violent, but in my personal
experience from flying and the fact that planes generally don't
get turned upside down, such violent, random winds are relatively
rare.

This is the only atmosphere of any thickness that we know much
about.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:19:03 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

CardSharks wrote:
>   >>
> Thanks. That's not the article though. This created a Religion Profile.
There is something like that in DGPs World Builders Handbook! Its quite good as well!
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 11:23:57 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

Peter Newman wrote:

> I have the real thing.  Are you still considering doing reprints of the,
> much rarer, Journal of the Travellers Aid Society #1 ?  I have not been
> able to find it anywhere.
It is one of the things where later generations of players will even doubt its existence.
"Naw, that is just a rumour, JTAS started with issue 3...."
- -- 
					 Volker
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
     /----------------------------------------------------------\
    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
 /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
/--------------------------------------------------------------------\

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 May 1998 19:45:28 -0700
From: warlock@imagin.net
Subject: Latin

Can anyone translate the following phrase?

Ave atque vale

It's a quote attributed to Leston Smitts, an asteroid tug
pilot based in Gorky/Diaspora.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:39:11 +0200
From: "Volker A. Greimann" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Where is this article?

>         I am trying to design a order of Knights for my campaign
> and I am seeking a specific article that I believe was in one of
> the old Journals. It was a encounter adventure, were the players
> would find a derelict space craft from the current T4 time and
> there was a Ghost on board of a Order of Knights that since
> disappeared or etc.
Was it an order of psionic knights?
If so, i think you mean the MT-Adventure from the Travellers Digests 14-16

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 20:41:20 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II

- -----Original Message-----
From: Volker A. Greimann <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, May 14, 1998 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: OK who knows this... II


>
>There is something like that in DGPs World Builders Handbook! Its quite
good as well!

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> Volker
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     /----------------------------------------------------------\
>    /  Volker A. Greimann  Am Weidengraben 86, C6  54296 Trier   \
>   /  grei5001@uni-trier.de   GERMANY    greimann@geocities.com   \
>  /  ICQ:9767142      http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/4061   \
> /  Please dont try to stop me-Im just barely ahead of insanity   \
>/--------------------------------------------------------------------\
>


Talk about items that future Travellers will concider a legend!!!! I hear
about it and hear about it but... Why did I ever take a break from gaming??
I should have left the kids go without shoes!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 21:34:31 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: CU-Seeme "Live" game.

I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme" and
"ICQ" software.  If you are familiar with these two pieces of software and
are interested in playing Traveller from home please contact me at
thomharr@mediaone.net and NOT on the TML.  Just so you know, you don't need
a camera to see what I'm broadcasting.  If things go as planned I will start
it up the middle to end of June.  This is due to some overwhelming family
matters that won't be resolved before then.   As far as I know we will be
the very first gaming group to ever do RPG this way.  [About time we put
this TL-7/8 technology to work. ;-)]

Thanks to the TML for allowing this intrusion.

Thom Harris
Greater Metro Boston, MA - USA

------------------------------

Date: 14 May 1998 16:37 EDT
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: An Exercise for the Reader

Anyone want to take a stab at designing an arcology inside a
large asteroid?

Asteroid hull
sphere: 1km radius   = 4/3 x pi x 1km^3
                     = 4 x 1 000 000 000 m^3
		     x 1/14 m^3 per ton
		     = more than 250 Mt displacement

Does that sound correct?

What would it take (equipment + Cr) to hollow out the inside,
add grav plates + a small fusion light+heat source (sun equivalent
with less heat), add a few external docking bays, and turn the 
thing into a little "park" or arcology?

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:41:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking

Hello,
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking
...
>> >f. Company realizes that if they start investigating, the ship will
>> >simply get sold to someone else, vastly increasing their losses to
>> >this activity, and decide to cut their losses.
>> 
>>   What if the company buys back their ship and then passes their
>> suspicions on to the relevant authorities?
>
>Then the company will have no chance of getting back the next starship
>that the hijackers steal.  You also risk the lives of that ships crew,
>the morale of the crew of your other ships nad a vast ammount of money. 

  If a large companies ships are that vulnerable to being picked off in
series, then they should consider replacing their security staff.

>Would you want to be the person risking _your_ career on the bet that
>the authorities would find & punish the criminals.  If you are wrong and
>the authorites fail to capture the criminals you may very well end up
>fired about 100 nanoseconds after the company learns that the next
>starship has been stolen - you have just cost them millions.  Of course

  The alternative to not solving the problem may very well be risking
the entire companies existence as insurers (and thus cargo) and passengers
stay away in droves. What amount of compensation will it take to keep
hijacked passengers from suing or telling their story?

  How many hijacked (or missing, presumed dead) passengers will it take
before the authorities do something? There's no question of their being
fired for attempting to solve the crime; rather the opposite.

>depending on your perception of the cultural norms of the Third Imperium
>it may be that letting someone steal your starship and getting away with
>it might be somewhat harmful to your companies image.  If Imperial
>culture is macho enough it might even be viewed as emasculating.  It

  Well, I can see pro's and con's to both informally re-acquiring your
ship, and being the meanest SOB on the sector Main. The bottom line is,
of course, the bottom line, and anything that substantially interferes
with the companies profitability cannot be allowed to persist if it is
within said corps powers to influence the matter.

>would be a  "Hello. My name is Ingio Montoya.  You stole my starship. 
>Prepare to die." sort of thing.
>
>If you are going to play it that way you would be better of hiring a
>repo man to get the ship back. ...

  Nah, I'd go with genetically enhanced RUS's, perhaps with gaping
toothy maws and mean streaks a mile wide.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:24:09 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: RE: Latin

Ok, my Latin is a little rusty but Ave means "Hail", atque is a connecting
word and in this case I think it means "and", and Vale means "Farewell" so
translated it means "Hail and Farewell"

Regards,
David


- -----Original Message-----
From:	owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.MPGN.COM]
On Behalf Of warlock@imagin.net
Sent:	Wednesday, May 13, 1998 10:45 PM
To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject:	Latin

Can anyone translate the following phrase?

Ave atque vale

It's a quote attributed to Leston Smitts, an asteroid tug
pilot based in Gorky/Diaspora.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:23:28 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

I forgot about the shooting, and as a Jew, frankly I find her an
embarrassment. I have no problem with her getting a permit, but what about all
of the other people in SF who are being threatened. I guess every Jew,
homosexual, and any other minority group in SF should get one then. An order
of protection is a JOKE. She is a hypocrite, just like all the other
celebrities who are publicly anti-gun, but either use their political pull to
get concealed permits, and/or use armed bodyguards.

Ob. Traveller: celebrities on a law level 9 world ignore the weapons
prohibitions, or use strings to get the PC bodyguards permits (or SAY they
will get them, and don't)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 03:37:01 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

> > Traveller Supplement 5. Lightning Class Cruisers. Available only in 
> > Azhanti High Lightning, and thus extremely rare. 
> 
> > I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies. 
> > How many on the list are looking for this?
> 
> I have the real thing.  Are you still considering doing reprints of the,
> much rarer, Journal of the Travellers Aid Society #1 ?  I have not been
> able to find it anywhere.

I would not mind a copy of Supplement 5 & JTAS #1.

Legate, Militant Jewish Terrorist
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #489
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, May 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 490



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Supplement 5 anyone?
Re: An Exercise for the Reader
Re: Hijacking summation?
Re: Total ships in the Imperium
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Expanded life support costs
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Comparative TLs doc
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
Re: Early Vilani Cuisine
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.
Re: An Exercise for the Reader
Re: Techie question
Re: Techie question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 22:41:37 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?

> >I am considering producing a limited run of Authoriized Photocopies.  How many
> >on the list are looking for this?
> >Marc Miller
> I would be interested in copies of any supplements that I do not already have.
> PZ

Same here.

Legate
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 18:43:12 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: An Exercise for the Reader

- -----Original Message-----
From: Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, May 15, 1998 2:23 PM
Subject: An Exercise for the Reader


>Anyone want to take a stab at designing an arcology inside a
>large asteroid?
>
>Asteroid hull
>sphere: 1km radius   = 4/3 x pi x 1km^3
>                     = 4 x 1 000 000 000 m^3
>      x 1/14 m^3 per ton
>      = more than 250 Mt displacement
>
>Does that sound correct?


Yeah, about 299 Megatons, but it depends on how thick you want the 'hull' to
be. I don't know what the value of rock is as armour, but make it 100m thick
and you've got 153 Megatons of space and a lot of protection from radiation
and stuff.

>What would it take (equipment + Cr) to hollow out the inside,
>add grav plates + a small fusion light+heat source (sun equivalent
>with less heat), add a few external docking bays, and turn the
>thing into a little "park" or arcology?
>
>Rob

Er, pass. Seriously though, do you really want a 'sun' inside your arcology?
You can have UV lights and stuff and plants will still grow (even in a
closet. hehe) You could spin the rock and have induced gravity saving on
grav plates (but limiting internal usable surface area). Docking probably
would be a problem with a thing spinning as fast as it would have to to
produce one G? Any of you physicists out there know how fast it would have
to spin? Maybe artificial G isn't such a bad idea, though you're going to
have to source the fuel and have a damn good recycling process so you don't
run out of essentials.

Digging out my old MT Ref's manual thingy I find "A Planetoid can only use
80% of it's volume: the remainder is unusable and must be left in place to
maintain structural integrity."
"Buffered planetoids can only use 65% of volume..." This gives Planetoids an
armour value of 50 and the buffered ones 56. Tunnelling out the thing costs
Cr 75 per kiloliter of hull (I assume this means the area you are using, not
the whole thing).

Anyway, sounds like fun, let me know what you come up with :)

Cheers,
      Anson.

Nemo me Impune Lacessit

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 23:09:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Hello,
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?
>
>Mon, 11 May 1998 10:50:19 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>  OK. Upon reflection hiding the crew against a not very thorough
>>search shouldn't be too challenging. I fail to see how you might
>>threaten the crew, as once such an inspection is passed liquidating
>>them becomes a option again;
>
>The same way you make people cooperate in sending the police
>away today.  You either convince them you are the sort of
>person who will kill you out of spite if you double
>cross them, or you actually be that sort of person.

  You might want to consider that threatening to kill them can
easily fail if they suspect or know that you will anyway.

>>  Covered previously (this is a summation); if anyone on board or
>>acting for them (or for the cargo), intentionally or not, sends a
>>message ahead of the ship (even by a couple of days) then any such
>>inspection will have a very obvious and simple thing to check.
>
>I guess I missed that.  The fact is that there won't always
>be a ship leaving to right destination and you won't always
>be in position where you know your destination days before
>you leave.  You would have add the willingness to put up
>with that to your list of assumptions.

  True, but there will be a close correlation between the amount
of traffic and the likelihood of that condition being trivially
easy. Scheduled ships in general can do this effortlessly. A
tramp could quite reasonably fall into the other category.

...
>>  Well, this is in the context of a drop-tank/jump station fuel model,
>>so ships to protect inspectors aren't relevant (and trivial to begin
>>with), as ships are inspected as they approach such a station.
>
>How does the inspector get onboard before you reach the station?
>And even if he did, how do you get the ship to surrender?  What
>is to keep them from just demanding the fuel to flee with?

  Send a launch if necessary. With the ship coming to refuel and
unload prior inspection is only needed if anti-terrorist security
measures are being seriously enacted. Getting hijackers or pirates
to surrender probably comes under the heading of "cease and desist
or cease to exist"; given even modest power for daily functions the
station would still have plenty of loadout for offense and defense
against light units, particularly at close range.

>>  The possibility is overlooked that such inspections might be demanded
>>successfully by the shipping community from the government, and thus
>>added to everyones tax bill (but under-represented on their own).
>
>Only if the costs were within what was justified by the percieved
>threat of highjackings.  What is going to happen is what happens
>in all sorts of crime, measure are going to be instituted to reduce
>it to a managable level, and then you can find the money for
>further measures.  I see the problems of reselling the shipa
>and getting by the ship's crew as already getting down to that
>level.

  You do realize that in the real world certain "crimes" absorb
far more resources than makes sense under the oft-repeated (on the
TML, anyway, IIRC I've never run across it anywhere else) model
above; drugs (as in "war on..."), murder, and state security issues.

...
>>  Great, but what if I as the consignor try to put a cargo on a ship
>>that my insurance company considers unqualified?
>
>Being insured doesn't make you more qualified and the measures that
>can be instituted to make sure you are qualified can be used without
>forcing you to take insurance you don't need.

  Actually, being insured probably is the major qualifaction, certainly
if the real world is any indicator. OC, if these other measures are 
enacted to make you safe then insurance would then be cheap.

   BTW, what other anti-hijacking measures do you propose that would
obviate the need for insurance. They would also appear to presume
that only hostile action results in losses, not accidents or carelessness
of any sort.

>Besides you don't base your trust on people carring insurance for
>unlikely events.  You don't require bonded couriers to carry
>life insurance to prove they won't die before they get to
>their destination.

  Irrelevant. I certainly require insurance before I ship a box
of Traveller books to Alaska, miniatures to Ohio, or camera gear
up the Fraser Valley. Any business will require insurance on any
unit that represents a significant capital element, unless the
cost of doing so is sizable compared to the perceived risk.

>More generally, I think the proposals in various threads for
>inspections of every ship, patrols everywhere, extensive
>(and cross checked) records and permits, extensive commercial
>airline safety regulations, untamperable transponders, extensive
>flight control regulations to make sure ships can be watched, etc.
>all fits better with our current regulated society with easy
>communication than it does with what I see as a decentralised,
>laisse faire, poor communications Imperium.  I just don't
>see these kind of measure being in place to _totally_ eliminate
>any crime (which is probably impossible if you realize that
>history shows us that measures that are expected to totally
>eliminate any crime almost always fail to do so).

  The Imperium has invented computers, yes? That takes care of most
of the ship records. Inspections and patrols are matters of customs
and internal security.

  "Tamper-proof" transponders are products of the background; I'm 
fond of the Cymbeline chips, but not the boxes - suggestions about
correcting this problem are best directed to the game developers.

  You do realize that modern commerce isn't particularly heavily
regulated relative to our ability to do so, don't you? If you
want to see really stifling regulation, try any text on early
modern French internal customs, particularly the reform efforts
towards the end of the 1700's (where they documented their system
at length).

  I also don't recall anyone saying that any crime would be
impossible in the Imperium, with the possible exception of
assassinating the Emperor, say :)

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:22:43 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Total ships in the Imperium

>>Total Naval Tonnage in service :   31,931,019,986t
>>Total Merchant Tonnage in service :  297,663,511,896t
>It is interesting, but it turns out that the proportion of naval ships to
>merchant ships is about 1:10, exactly what I herd proffered as the ideal
>escort:trader ratio.

Tonnage does not equal number of ships. Think of destroyers or even
heavy cruisers and then think of supertankers and you will see what I
mean. Sources indicate that over 70% of cargo ships are large bulk
carriers of some sort. This would imply more military ships than 1 in
10.

After looking up reference sources I find that current earth combat
tonnage to cargo tonnage is more like 1:20 (perhaps even as low as
1:25). Though perhaps this does correlate with a 1:10 number of ships.

>>Total Ship Tonnage in service :  329,594,531,883t
>That seems an awful lot! But it works out as only .026t per citizen. I
>wonder how the amount of shipping in the modern worlds compares.

Current earth shipping tonnage per person is around 0.005 DT compared to
the postulated 0.026 for an interstellar empire. I find this encouraging
as it is only a factor of five out for what would be a low TL world (say
an average of TL7?) and  this excludes trans-continental road & rail
tonnage.

So the predicted figures look OK, perhaps even low. Though 40% of
current earth tonnage is devoted to fuel transportation that should
almost vanish with the advent of fusion. Also earth ships take
considerably longer than two weeks for the average voyage, so fewer
would be needed.

Does anyone have any figures for the historical growth rate of cargo
tonnage corresponding to earth's TL progression? Is it flattening out or
still growing exponentially?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:24:24 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

"What is needed to detect clear air turbulence?"

LIDAR.

I found the reference. It was a side bar in New Scientist 18 April 1998.
Report was from NASA Dryden Flight Research Center, Edwards, California.
In a series of tests it successfully predicted strength & duration of
clear air turbulence from 3 to 8 km ahead. Now planning to move to more
powerful lidar for improved range & eventual commercial aircraft use. 

Detecting turbulence may add tension, but does it actually help you very
much?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:27:20 +0100
From: "Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com>
Subject: Re: Expanded life support costs

>MINIMAL: Cr1,000/month.
>BARELY ADEQUATE: Cr2,000/month. 
>ADEQUATE: Cr3,000/month. 
>GOOD: Cr4,000/month. 
>LUXURIOUS: Cr4,500+/month

IMO the base cost would be higher and the spread be closer. Say 500
apart. You might want to factor in using cheap labor from poor worlds or
"permanent" working passage labor as well.

>Because passengers only stay onboard ships for an average of 8 days or so,
>life support costs for passengers are paid per jump and not per month.

>Economy Passage:	1000
>Middle Passage:	1200
>High Passage:		1400

T4 rules quote *life support* as an overhead cost of Cr2000 per TRIP per
stateroom. It also says that cargo has no overhead cost, even for
livestock, which can't have all that different basic life support needs.
So what this Cr2000 is, unless it is tax I don't know. 

The livestock containers cannot be totally self-contained, because the
rules talk about setting the environment on the cargo deck for livestock
transportation. 

Do the crew have to feed & muck-out the animals? I like the role-play
opportunities this presents :)

T4 also quotes an overhead cost of Cr100 per trip per low berth. What
does this represent?

Of course you would want to get an absolute minimum return on your
staterooms after overheads of Cr1000 per DT (i.e. Cr1000 for a low
berth, Cr2000 for a small stateroom and Cr4000 for a large stateroom).
Otherwise just gut the room and take cargo instead.

Note that T4 uses a transportation charges of Cr4000 per ton. So in T4
low berths lose Cr2100 per DT over shipping an equal amount of cargo,
mid-passage loses Cr1000 per DT, and high passage breaks even. Don't
even consider large staterooms and rip those low berths out now!

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 12:40:19 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

On Wed, 13 May 1998, Bruce Johnson wrote:

> "It is interesting that the complete Spaceguard survey could be
> accomplished for the cost of either one of these films: Deep Impact or
> Armageddon."

The same quote I heard in a german interview about the movie these days -
different language, same content. The project yould be maintained for over
25 years with the money for Deep Impact.

Another quote about 'money for stargazers' can be taken from 'Contact'
when Ellie Arroway says "ask Hollywood. They make money with aliens, so
they could support us."

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 22:49:36 +1200
From: "Anson Betts" <Lord.High.Executioner@xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Comparative TLs doc

>A .txt document listing details of comparative TLs for CT, MT, GURPS,
>and TimeLords can be found at:
>
>http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~jservey/TimeLords/techlvl2.txt
>
>It is, of course, subjective but it contains some interesting thoughts,
>IMO.

Cool, thanks :)

Cheers,
      Anson.	

Nemo me Impune Lacessit

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:31:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

> How I have always played it, is that these configurations can skim, at
> greater risk the further from and airframe configuration the ship is, but
> probably shouldn't. Additionally, I typically concider the processing time
> for the fuel to be purified, to be the defining factor in how long a ship
> stays in atmoshere. My take on it is that the fuel goes from scoop to
> purifier, where the none usable elements of the atmoshere are discharged
> back into the atmoshere (most likely through a catalytic reaction) and the
> usable "light elemental gases" are compressed and stored in the fuel tanks.
>
> If this is not the case than the fuel tankage should be conciderably larger
> for a ship using GG skimming. The volume stored in the tanks during skimming
> would have to be large enough to produce sufficient fuel after it was
> refined, Since the exact make up of each worlds atmoshere is different this
> would be a real pain in the a#$ to calculate. Or the ship would have to make
> mutiple runs with seperate tanks for "clean" and "dirty" fuel.

As long as you stick with "classic" gas giants, the main component of
the atmosphere of the larger ones (Jupiter, Saturn) *is* hydrogen.
Smaller ones (Uranus, Neptune) will have rather more hydrogen compunds
(methane, ammonia, water), but still have a *lot* of hydrogren.

The recently discovered "close" gas giants may have a lot more
compounds, but even there it's hard to make something that massive that
*isn't* mostly hydrogen.

Earth, Venus and Mars are essentially "gas giants with the hydrogen
removed" :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 02:37:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

In mail you write:

>>But the computer program for a ship not intended to enter atmosphere
>>is going to be programmed to assume that *all* forces go thru the CG.
>>The wind forces going thru the CP will produce deflection forces that
>>don't act in a way the computer is programmed to handle.
>
> The CG of the ship will change depending on how full its tanks are,
> cargo load, bits missing in combat, etc. The ship has to be programmed
> to cope with this, so it should make a decent attempt at self
> correction. Admittedly it would have to react very quickly.

Actually, one of the jobs of a loadmaster on cargo planes, and of one
of the officers on a cargo ship is making sure that the cargo is loaded
so as to *not* cause any great shifts in CG! Stability is rather
important. And cargo holds and tankage will be arranged to *minimize*
the effects on the ship. With fuel tanks, you'll pump fuel between
tanks to keep things balanced. Though it'll be a rare occasion when the
ship is using fuel *that* rapidly *and* manuevering. Maybe while
dodging attacks *and* trying to charge the jump drive.

> Wouldn't a wind effect have the same effect as a thruster firing at that
> point (or directly opposite point)?

Thing is, the CP (which is where the wind forces "appear" to be
pushing) is unlikely to be anywhere *near* a steering thruster. These
will tend to be paired (one on each side of the CG) and as *far* from
the CG as is practical (you get more leverage that way). 

So the wind will be creating a force at a point the computer doesn't
expect. And worse, as the ship moves relative to the wind, the force
*changes*. 

Sure, a computer can handle that. But a ship not intended to land won't
have the necessary programs. The ones it has, even the ones for
compensating for things like battle damage, will haver built-in
assumptions that are *wrong*. Dangerously wrong.

> The program has to cope with thrusters at different positions and angles
> from the variable CG anyway, isn't this just one more?

The computer *knows* where the CG is. And what effects various
thrusters and "possible" external forces will have on the ship. But the
wind forces don't follow those rules. And *that's* where the danger
lies. 

> Most of the *airframe* ship designs I have seen put most of the mass at
> the back - drives, power plant, cargo. These should also have a tendency
> to fly backwards!

Sure, but being airframe ships, their design partially compensates, and
their computer has a *seperate* set of programs for atmospheric flight.

Note that *any* flight control software for free space *or* for
atmosphere is ship specific, as it needs to know things about the ship's
configuration. For both it needs to know the CG, thruster locations and
power, how "steerable" the main drive is, and how the ship is
"trimmed" (and how fast that can be changed). It also needs to know
what sort of stresses various parts of the ship can take. 

For atmospheric flight it also needs to know the CP, location of
control surfaces (if any), what sort of *aerodynamic* stresses various
parts of the ship can take as well as what sort of stresses various
speeds and angles of attack will generate.

The CG info will have a cargo plotting module that the Steward or
Loadmaster or Cargo chief will use to help balance the loading and to
let the program figure the CG shift.

The atmospheric FCS (flight control system) software will be *at least*
special order for non-"streamlined" ships. In many cases it'll be
*custom*. That is, you'll have to pay somebody to *write* it for you.
Sure, by then there will be a sort of "template" for such, but if the
guy forgets to enter *one* significant factor, or enters an
insignificant one as significant, you wind up in lots of trouble. And
getting the software *certified* is another mess (just like aircraft
now, *nobody* is going to let you use uncertified software to control a
ship!)

Heck, I suspect that there's a "borderline" class of ship where *if*
you had the software and some extra instruments (windspeed indicator,
some sort of sensor that can try to sense airflows far enough away that
you have time to react, that sort of thing) *can* land. But it's either
an option left off most of them, or the result of an expensive bit of
customizing. 

And all for the ability to take *hours* landing instead of just docking
at the highport. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 03:06:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Early Vilani Cuisine

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>>>     Nope e. coli would have been carried in the guts of the humans
>>brought to
>>> Viland and would have been dropped into the local water supplies with
>>the 
>>> first
>>> shit they took. ;) I kid you not!  But to the best of my knowledge e.
>>coli
>>> isn't a fermenting bacteria.
>>
>>No, but the "yeast" in "yeast infection" *is*. And that *could* get
>>carried by people easily enough.
>
> So that's why Vilani beer tastes like...

You can get them in other places. Anyplace that stays damp and moist,
and has "crud" for the yeast to use as food. It turns out that
sometimes when they treat a woman for a yeast infection, they have to
treat her boyfriend too. Men get them, they just don't get the
symptoms. And armipts are another good place if you don't wash or
change clothes much. <eww!>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 08:22:29 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.

Thom Harris wrote:

> I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme" and
> "ICQ" software.

Sounds interesting, but I hope nobody dies during net lag.  ;-)

> Thom Harris
> Greater Metro Boston, MA - USA

Sheesh, it seems like there are more and more in the Boston area all the time.

If a Traveller-oriented mini-con ever happens, I think Boston would be the
place to have it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:51:06 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: An Exercise for the Reader

>From: Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>>Anyone want to take a stab at designing an arcology inside a
>>large asteroid?
>>
>>Asteroid hull
[snip]
>>      = more than 250 Mt displacement
>>
>>Does that sound correct?
>
>
>Yeah, about 299 Megatons,
[snip]
>>What would it take (equipment + Cr) to hollow out the inside,
>>add grav plates + a small fusion light+heat source (sun equivalent
>>with less heat), add a few external docking bays, and turn the
>>thing into a little "park" or arcology?
[snip]
>Er, pass. Seriously though, do you really want a 'sun' inside your arcology?

I agree, If you want big open space but "arclights" on top of the buildings
to illuminate the other side of the sphere.

>You could spin the rock and have induced gravity saving on
>grav plates (but limiting internal usable surface area). Docking probably
>would be a problem with a thing spinning as fast as it would have to to
>produce one G? Any of you physicists out there know how fast it would have
>to spin?

I don't remember the formulae, but I do remember that the smaller the
radius, the faster the spin to create 1G, and I think you'd be better off
using grav plates.  They're relatively cheap, as is energy, and a spinning
asteroid hull, unless it was perfectly spherical (probability of which I
will not discuss) there would be some "wobble" that might have an adverse
effect on the inhabitants and/or docking ops.

> Maybe artificial G isn't such a bad idea, though you're going to
>have to source the fuel and have a damn good recycling process so you don't
>run out of essentials.

An occasional discussion of environmental technology on this list has
convinced me that a 'closed' habitat can be viable with technology
available even at our TL now.  The problem is that it takes a lot of space,
but in this kind of planned habitat that space can be set aside and
optimized.  The one resource that needs to be resupplied on occasion is
water.  The quantity needed is small (since its only due to incidential
loss from accidential ventings of small amounts of atmosphere,
transferrence of mois tinternal air with dry starship air, etc.) but is
definitely there.  A nearby Icy body can provide years worth, assuming the
scale we are discussing.

Everything else, food, oxygen/nitroge/carbon dioxide for atmosphere, waste
recycling, all the environmental necessities are supplied by an internal
closed ecosystem.  Luxuries and other types of supplies are imported, of
course.

>Digging out my old MT Ref's manual thingy I find "A Planetoid can only use
>80% of it's volume: the remainder is unusable and must be left in place to
>maintain structural integrity."[snip] Tunnelling out the thing costs
>Cr 75 per kiloliter of hull (I assume this means the area you are using, not
>the whole thing).

So the internal volume becomes (300 Million tons x 80%) 240 Megatons, times
13.5 is 3,240 million Kiloliters times 75 cr/kl= 243,000 Mcr.

I would add to that a few other things; .1G manuver drive (for orbital
correction), a bunch of airlocks, grav plates, inertial comp (which would
reinforce stuctural integrity), I would use three times the base numbers at
the design tech level for self-renewing environmental controls, add a
computer and some sensors (for traffic control), and, of course, a big
whopping fusion plant. (A lot of space can probably be saved by installing
solar panelling, but I am not going to figure out the surface area of the
thing right now).

Using TL14 and my MT Ship Design spreadsheet I get a crew of 163,000 to run
the facility, but that's OK because there's still about 180 million tons of
internal space left over, even after installing staterooms for the
"Physical Plant" personnel.

A lot of that internal volume is taken up if we visualize the "hollow
inside" type of habitat.  I would suggest that, rather than completely
hollow insides, there is a large park near the center with, say, 100 meters
to the other side of the inner sphere.  That will leave about 700 meters
deep of "Decks" from that point out to the surface of the asteroid for
homes, businesses, industry, More "park" space, ship docking bays, etc.

Altogether a nice place to live.  Lots of industry due to the ready access
to null-G and vacuum, plus the proximity of raw materials (asteroids are
usually found in belts), the ease of approach of merchant traffic (the 100
dia. limit is within walking distance, and probably the nearest GG is
closer too), plus no atmosphere to descend through or suttle down to,
altogether a recipe for success, and all you need is a few hundred million
Megacredits of Capital to invest.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:55:24 -0400
From: warmind@juno.com (james a clem)
Subject: Re: Techie question

IMTU, thruster plates work by pushing (or otherwise interacting) with
space time itself, rather than acting with the curvature of space time,
as contra-grav does (and thus, avoiding much of the inverse square losses
associated with CG).  As such, the plates could be placed anywhere on the
vessel, since they dont emit any type of exhaust.



Jim A. Clem, B.S.E.
CEO and Founder, Diasporan Industries, Inc.
www.geocities.com/area51/dimension/7081/
Traveller Geek Code tc+ tm !tn tt t4+ ru+() ge++ !3i jt au (+) st ls(+)
pi+ he++ merc++ dt+++
GM:  The Scattered Worlds Traveller PbEM



On Fri, 15 May 1998 17:25:16 +0000 "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<vallance@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>I'm currently designing some ships for my Interstellar Wars project 
>and I have a technical question. Do the plates for Thrusters have to 
>go at the back of the ship? Do they actually "push" against gravity 
>(meaning I have to put them at right angles to the axis of thrust) or 
>can I put them anywhere?
>
>  Andrew etc.
>    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
>    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
>
>IMTU Code
>  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
>  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++++ su+ ge
>****************************************************************************
>"Avec vous votra limpet mine?"
>****************************************************************************
>

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:15:31 +0200
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Techie question

>IMTU, thruster plates work by pushing (or otherwise interacting) with
>space time itself, rather than acting with the curvature of space time,
>as contra-grav does (and thus, avoiding much of the inverse square losses
>associated with CG).  As such, the plates could be placed anywhere on the
>vessel, since they dont emit any type of exhaust.

Neither should CG as space time curvature is inside the sgip as well.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #490
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Traveller-digest        Friday, May 15 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 491



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Horror in Traveller
Offer to the TML
Re: Where is this article?
Boston Traveller mini-con
Escort Tonnage
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.
Re: Techie question
MT Character Generator
Re: An Exercise for the Reader
re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
re: LIDAR
RE: Horror and otherrelated topics...
Hypersonic Aircraft
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 
requesting feedback...
Re: Hijacking summation?
re:Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere
RE: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: requesting feedback...
Does anyone have core subsector names?
Re: Latin
Active Traveller Campaign and Introduction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:27:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Horror in Traveller

>        Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?

Yes, but not the kind you're talking about.  My players who were there still
bring up an adventure I ran some 7 years ago, where they were exploring a
tech 6 military base that was on the losing side of a war waged with clean
neutron weaponry.  Everything was silent, abandoned, and creepy.  The CO's
skeleton was still inside his uniform, in his chair, in his office, with a
long-evaporated bottle of whiskey on his desk and his service pistol on the
floor, where he dropped it... you get the idea.

By the time they discovered there was an extra elevator shaft going *down*,
they were thoroughly creeped out.  And when something MOVED down there (a
Zhodani war robot; the Zho had been feeding these guys "appropriate tech," on
other words, teaching them how to do stuff with tech 6 resources that is only
obvious in hindsight) even the hardened Marine panicked...

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:23:46 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Offer to the TML

First of all, thanks to "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net> for the translation
of my latin quote. Given the character's situation, "hail and fairwell"
(or "hello and goodbye") seems very appropriate.

Secondly, I was lucky enough to begin collecting Traveller material
in 1979 and have *all* of the original TAS Journals, including
#1 and 2. However, I'm unlucky enough not to have time to play
Traveller, my having all this stuff currently isn't doing any of you
any good, and gloating is rather rude so...

I'd like to offer my services to the TML by providing information on any
original material you all may have an interest in. I'd be happy to make
copies of any material *which won't violate copyrights*. In other words,
I won't copy items which are currently in print or are available online,
either at an online store or currently up for auction. I *will* point you to
the store or auction, though. Once the auction is over, though, we can
talk.

However, I'd also like to offer copies to you, Marc, of any Traveller
material which I have access to and you don't. I've about 98% of all
material published since 1977 and can provide info as to what topics
are covered, who wrote what, etc. within a specified publication.

BTW, by "Marc" I mean Marc Miller, not everyone on the TML named
Marc. ;-)

Now, the downside.

1)  I *do not* have a detailed database on my stuff (yet), just a .TXT
file listing of the items. I also don't have enough free time to play
Traveller, let alone do intensive research so requests need to be
detailed as to which item you all want info from.

2)  This email was sent from my jobsite but my Traveller material is
at home. Therefore, I can't do Traveller research while at work (my
boss won't allow it for some reason..go figure). Please do *not* send
any requests to the address on this email. Instead, use my home
email address of:

                          warlock@imagin.net

3)  Although I check my email as soon as I get home, I can't
guarantee any time frame. However, if you let me know if your
request is critical for some reason (i.e. you're taking part in an
auction), I'll jump on it ASAP and give you an idea as to when I
can get it done. Usually I'll be able to do it within 12-24 hours.
BTW, I live just outside Dallas, Texas, USA so my clock is
on the US's Central Standard Time.

That's all folks.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:40:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Where is this article?

It's a four-part series, starting with "Ghost Ship," in _Travellers' Digest_
#14.

  -- Joe

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:28:30 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Boston Traveller mini-con

>If a Traveller-oriented mini-con ever happens, I think Boston would be the
place
>to have it.
I'm tempted. I was on the committee for the Irish national convention for
years. A mini-con would be a doddle. Anyone know of a cheap church or
community hall around Boston? (Reply by private e-mail.)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:24:55 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Escort Tonnage

I wrote:
>>Total Naval Tonnage in service :   31,931,019,986t
>>Total Merchant Tonnage in service :  297,663,511,896t
>It is interesting, but it turns out that the proportion of naval ships to
>merchant ships is about 1:10, exactly what I herd proffered as the ideal
>escort:trader ratio.

You wrote:
>Tonnage does not equal number of ships.
What I had heart proffered was that the reccomended amount of escort to
have was 1ton of escort ship for every 10t of cargo ship. I agree it would
be silly to base such a estimate on the number of ships. One Close Escort
could hardly ably defend 10 super tankers, not would it make sense for a
battleship to escort 10 free traders.
So we are both in agreement with my statement, as it stands.

>Sources indicate that over 70% of cargo ships are large bulk
>carriers of some sort.
I am curious as to what sources you refer to? I have always beleived this
(actually I more believe that 99% of cargo ship, by tonnage, are bulk) but
I was never aware of any explicit references.

>Though 40% of current earth tonnage is devoted to fuel transportation
>that should almost vanish with the advent of fusion.
Actually if you consider the amount of tankage devoted to fuel on a
starship they are still hauling a lot of fuel around the place! But, yes,
that's kind of different.

Cheers,
Jo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 07:47:45 -0700
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.

> > I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme" and
> > "ICQ" software.
> 
> Sounds interesting, but I hope nobody dies during net lag.  ;-)

Actually, I play weekly in two different games on IRC and its 
wonderful.  It helps to be on the same server to avoid most lag 
problems. 

There are at least three games going on IRC that I'm aware of and I 
know someone who is planning to start a fourth in a few months.

Suz 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:58:35 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Techie question

On Fri, 15 May 1998 17:25:16 +0000 "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance"
<vallance@cirrostratus.netaccess.co.nz> writes:
>I'm currently designing some ships for my Interstellar Wars project
>and I have a technical question. Do the plates for Thrusters have to
>go at the back of the ship? Do they actually "push" against gravity
>(meaning I have to put them at right angles to the axis of thrust) or
>can I put them anywhere?

Others have given, I think, the "T4" answer.  I will give the "DGP" answer
(from the Starship Operator's manual, a Megatraveller volume).

AFAIR, Thruster plates are mounted in the direction of *most efficient*
thrust.  Thruster plates could be used for "off axis" thrust, but they
would only be able to provide a percentage of their rated thrust.  Directly
opposite the design directiont the capacity was 10% of rated thrust.  I
believe that 90 degrees off axis was 40%, but I may not remember that
number perfectly.

Many ships, like the Subsidised Merchant, have a vague resemblence of a
lifting body, and presumably can land like a not-particularly well designed
airplane with a 1G drive oriented towards the tail of the craft.  However,
on a planet with 1G of gravity, they would not be able to "hover" over
their landing plot like a helicopter.  In fact, they could only behave like
a Vertical Takeoff or Landing (VTOL) craft by either standing on their tail
(which presents a few problems) or on planets with 40% or less of Earth's
gravity.

I wonder how feasable it would be to approach in a airplane-like manner,
kill all velocity as you approach the landing area, transitioning to a
"tail-stand" landing approach until all velocity is killed, then, 3 feet
above the tarmac, execute a 'flip-down' landing on the landing gear.  I've
always felt that there are "attitude thrusters" placed around the nose,
these could aid in keeping the nose gear from collapsing when such a
manuver is performed (in fact, I've always thought they were just "reaction
thrusters" using L-Hyd for mass, so there would be this big cloud of vapor
spewing out the bow thrusters as the nose of the ship came swinging down
towards the landing apron).

It'd be quite a thing to watch anyway, especially with, say, a ten-thousand
ton freighter doing the landing.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 11:19:55 -0400
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: MT Character Generator

For those of you who are interested, I wrote a MegaTraveller character
generator which I have just put up on my Traveller web page. The Zip
file with the executables is located at:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/5776/Traveller.html

It is DOS based and does not have the slick interface you get with
Windows applications, but it is pretty complete. I just added Zhodani
character generation (I finally found a copy of Aliens Module #4).

Anyway, I like using it more than any of the other character generators
I have downloaded, even with the old style interface. It is written in
C, so it should be portable. I am willing to share the source code with
anyone who is interested.

I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
that were not available in MT (law school, attorney, pre-ind university,
techno-priest, entertainer, journalist, farmer and wealthy traveller).

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:48:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: An Exercise for the Reader

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> Anyone want to take a stab at designing an arcology inside a
> large asteroid?

> What would it take (equipment + Cr) to hollow out the inside,
> add grav plates + a small fusion light+heat source (sun equivalent
> with less heat), add a few external docking bays, and turn the
> thing into a little "park" or arcology?
> 

Just follow the FFS rules for asteroid hulls, and build a non-jump,
non-maneuver 'ship'. One of the test designs in either FFS or FFS2 (I
don't remember which) had the design sequence for a asteroid based
in-system monitor, whihc though it was mobuile, is conceptually similar.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:33:19 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

>        Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?

For an interesting literary perspective on this, take a look at Peter
Hamilton's "The Reality Dysfunction" (and sequels.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 09:35:32 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: LIDAR

>Could someone please explain what a LIDAR is, and what the difference
>between a LIDAR and a LADAR is.

The real-word name is LIDAR; older Traveller editions sometimes used LADAR,
but in FFS2 we finally got tired of this misnomer and started calling them
LIDAR. The two words refer to the same thing. The masses/costs/etc. for
LIDAR/LADAR also changed in FFS2 as part of the whole reworking of the sensor
rules.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 10:09:07 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Horror and otherrelated topics...

>
>>        Has anyone tried to implement a Horror setting with Traveller?
>
>For an interesting literary perspective on this, take a look at Peter
>Hamilton's "The Reality Dysfunction" (and sequels.)
>
>Bruce
>

Challenge magazine had several good horror adventures for Traveller, usually
in their October "Halloween" issues.  If anyone is really interested, I
might be able to browse through my collection this weekend and find specific
issues.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:31:30 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <David.Smart@ons.octel.com>
Subject: Hypersonic Aircraft

Any COACC fans interested in a TL8 type hypersonic aircraft design
should
consider checking out the following site:

http://haas.berkeley.edu/~hoff/arourapage.html

The design is reputed to be capable of Mach 6 to Mach 8 and has
supposedly already flown. The site also has links to details of the new
Pulse Detonation Wave engine under research (in use?). The engine uses
liquid hydrogen for fuel.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:20:34 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 

> There are at least three games going on IRC that I'm aware of and I 
> know someone who is planning to start a fourth in a few months.

Details, details!!!!!!!!!!

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:32:25 PDT
From: "Odin Sveinsson" <helsefyr34@hotmail.com>
Subject: requesting feedback...

Hello folks,

	I still need to purchase the following T4 products:

		Imperial Squadrons
		The Annililik Run
		Naval Architect's Manual
		Emperor's Vehicles

	I am look for some basic reviews by players a GM's alike
as to the value of said above four items. I own the rest of the 
T4 product line and I'm looking to what I should buy next. I was
thinking about get two of these books and I will buy them all in the
end but I'd rather get the better two products first. So tell me
folks who have the items, what do you think of them.

Thanks,


Odin

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 13:44:24 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation?

Thu, 14 May 1998 23:09:06 -0700, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven
Hudson)
> >The same way you make people cooperate in sending the police
> >away today.  You either convince them you are the sort of
> >person who will kill you out of spite if you double
> >cross them, or you actually be that sort of person.

>   You might want to consider that threatening to kill them can
> easily fail if they suspect or know that you will anyway.

I can fail.  Clearly there is no "certain" way to do a
hijacking (if there were, every ship would get hijacked).
However, it is possible.  Even probable if you look at
history.  They don't know you are going to kill them,
and it isn't certain you will, and even if they were
pretty sure, most poeple will still cooperate to 
avoid getting killed now.  (This is why Nazi Concentration
camp inmates didn't all rust the fence.)

> >I guess I missed that.  The fact is that there won't always
> >be a ship leaving to right destination and you won't always
> >be in position where you know your destination days before
> >you leave.  You would have add the willingness to put up
> >with that to your list of assumptions.

>   True, but there will be a close correlation between the amount
> of traffic and the likelihood of that condition being trivially
> easy.  Scheduled ships in general can do this effortlessly. A
>tramp could quite reasonably fall into the other category.

I don't see this.  Being on a schedule doesn't mean that
a ship is leaving two days before you.  (Unless you
are on a world where ships are leaving, without delay,
every day or so to every possible destination).  This
will occur on only the larger worlds.

> >How does the inspector get onboard before you reach the station?
> >And even if he did, how do you get the ship to surrender?  What
> >is to keep them from just demanding the fuel to flee with?

>   Send a launch if necessary.

Requiring more costs.  And of course, you have to make sure
they just can't take the inspector hostage to demand fuel.
Or hold a gun in his back while he radios "all OK" to the
station.  And even if you have them dead to rights, you
have the problem of them deciding to blow the inspector
(and the station if it's not guarded) away and trying
to escape in system (criminals do things like that..)

> >threat of highjackings.  What is going to happen is what happens
> >in all sorts of crime, measure are going to be instituted to reduce
> >it to a managable level, and then you can find the money for
> >further measures.  I see the problems of reselling the shipa
> >and getting by the ship's crew as already getting down to that
> >level.

>   You do realize that in the real world certain "crimes" absorb
> far more resources than makes sense under the oft-repeated (on the
> TML, anyway, IIRC I've never run across it anywhere else) model
> above; drugs (as in "war on..."), murder, and state security issues.

Not all crimes.  Some crimes get politicized and garner 
disproportionate resources while other languish.  One
could assume that hijacking is one of these.  However,
that would be just that, an _assumption_, that doesn't
prove they can occur.  In anycase, this wouldn't work
forever because political winds shift and a crime that
was high profile in one period is not in another.

> >Being insured doesn't make you more qualified and the measures that
> >can be instituted to make sure you are qualified can be used without
> >forcing you to take insurance you don't need.

>   Actually, being insured probably is the major qualifaction,

All being insured means is that the money you spent for insurance
exeeds the potential losses times the probability of loss.  If
hijackings are uncommon, then this amount of money could well
be less than the measure you propose to eliminate it all
together.

>    BTW, what other anti-hijacking measures do you propose that would
> obviate the need for insurance

I think tracking them down later when they try and sell the
ship would be be biggie?  So would shipboard security.  (Both
anti hihack programs and making sure nobody caries weapons
on board).

> >More generally, I think the proposals in various threads for
> >inspections of every ship, patrols everywhere, extensive
> >(and cross checked) records and permits, extensive commercial
> >airline safety regulations, untamperable transponders, extensive
> >flight control regulations to make sure ships can be watched, etc.
> >all fits better with our current regulated society with easy
> >communication than it does with what I see as a decentralised,
> >laisse faire, poor communications Imperium.  I just don't
> >see these kind of measure being in place to _totally_ eliminate
> >any crime (which is probably impossible if you realize that
> >history shows us that measures that are expected to totally
> >eliminate any crime almost always fail to do so).
 
>   The Imperium has invented computers, yes? That takes care of most
> of the ship records. 

The invention of computers doesn't make record unfakeable (it
may do the opposite) and it doesn't make the communications
needed to cross check them easier.

>Inspections and patrols are matters of customs
> and internal security.

And spending money on every possible inspection and patrol
doesn't fit with the model of a decentralized, laise-faire,
society.

>   "Tamper-proof" transponders are products of the background;

Transponders are.  I don't know if they are explicitly
tamperproof.  If they are, that is pretty unrealitic.
Besides they are a later addition that was symptom of
simply assuming everything everywhere must work like
we in our Western society have decided to make them work.

>   You do realize that modern commerce isn't particularly heavily
> regulated relative to our ability to do so, don't you?

You realize that it is also very regulated compared to 
many periods in history, don't you?

>   I also don't recall anyone saying that any crime would be
> impossible in the Imperium, with the possible exception of
> assassinating the Emperor, say :)

Well, I have never argued anything except that it was
possible.  I have made several references to the fact
that I agree the piracy and hijacking can't be too
common...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 16:45:32 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re:Unstreamlined Ships in Atmosphere

Leonard Erikson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Actually, one of the jobs of a loadmaster on cargo planes, and of one
of the officers on a cargo ship is making sure that the cargo is loaded
so as to *not* cause any great shifts in CG! Stability is rather
important. And cargo holds and tankage will be arranged to *minimize*
the effects on the ship. With fuel tanks, you'll pump fuel between
tanks to keep things balanced. Though it'll be a rare occasion when the
ship is using fuel *that* rapidly *and* manuevering. Maybe while
dodging attacks *and* trying to charge the jump drive.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I would really, really hate to be anywhere near the ship that's
charging the jump drive while dodging attacks in atmosphere - 
whether it was streamlined or not!

All the GM's with players who have tried jumping from atmosphere,
raise your hands... :)


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: RE: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

Wed, 13 May 1998 14:57:01 -0500, "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
> > Given that these movies should easily recoup their investments
> (despite
> > what the public hears, and the public books say, most Hollywood movies
> > do make money) it's interesting (and depressing) that people are
> willing
> > to plonk down $7-$10 to watch a movie about what could happen, and
> > aren't willing to pay the same as taxes to have some warning about it
> if
> > it really does happen.

> Untrue. If the gov't spent the money it has better, it would easily have
> enough to pay for Spaceguard.
For the record...

NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
have orbits that cross the Earth's.

For comets, it is not clear the the costs of a program
to do something about them is worth the low risk.  There
are proposals to have a rocket sitting ready on the 
launch pad in case a comet comes, but that is certainly
excessive.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 14:27:08 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: requesting feedback...

Odin Sveinsson wrote:
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
>         I still need to purchase the following T4 products:
> 
>                 Imperial Squadrons

T4's answer to Trillion Credit Squadron.  I've found it useful in the PE gaming
I do, but not really with the general Traveller Campaign, although it does
provide some nice overview.

>                 The Annililik Run

I don't have this one - didn't really plan on getting it until I heard IG went
down.  Now I'll get it to complete the collection.

>                 Naval Architect's Manual

NAM - only worthwhile if you will be doing your own deckplans.

>                 Emperor's Vehicles

I use it to flesh out the campaign with vehicle descriptions.  Has some
problems, but nothing that can't be overcome with a little GM initiative and
speculation (i.e. make it up as you go)

If you are only going to get 2, Emperor's Vehicles and Imperial Squadrons would
be the ones I suggest first.

- -- 
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller
IMTU tc+t4+tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls kk hi++ as+ va++ zh
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 15:13:50 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Does anyone have core subsector names?

Howdy, all.

I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  Does
anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what they are?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://www.iceweasel.com/~scott/
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 23:34:31 +0100
From: "Nicholas Wright" <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: Latin

"Ave atque Vale"

Does mean "Hail and Farewell"
Its a quote from Catullus allegedly see

<http://www.southwest.com.au/~azure/latin.html>

for more Latin, dog and otherwise

Obtrav:  If Vilani is still a live language what is the dead language that
all new inventions are named from?


Nick Wright

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:20:55 +0100
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Active Traveller Campaign and Introduction

Hello, All,

My name is Andy Gibson and, although I have been lurking here for a
while this is the first time I have posted.

This message is just to introduce myself and my campaign to you and to
make a couple of observations on the "Investments in the Imperium"
thread. I am particularly interested in this thread for reasons which
will become obvious when I explain the game I am running.

I am a chemical engineer by training but at the moment I am working as a
production/supply planner for a Group that makes and ships around 500
ktes a year of chemical product. I have played various roleplaying games
since about 1977 (first played Traveller in 1979), including sci-fi,
fantasy, historical, horror and superhero games, diced and diceless,
tabletop and LARP (when it was first starting out). I live in the north
east of England.

My current campaign is based in the Traveller "Milieu 0" universe and in
"Active Traveller Campaigns" parlance looks like this:

Location:  England, especially the north-east.
Founding date:  Somewhere around last new year, I suppose.
Group size:  Total 8 - 3 "younger generation", 5 "older generation" -
see below.
Number of referees:  1
Health:  Just starting out but looking good so far...
Predominant rules system:  Variant task system in T4-ish.
Campaign location:  Sylea, heading out into Fornast Sector
Campaign time:  Imperial Year 0 - 1
E-mail contact:  AndyGibson@yarm.demon.co.uk

The game is about an Imperial noble family which is, for various reasons
not entirely of its own making, not in Cleon's "charmed circle". I am
using Pocket Empires extensively and the family ("House Denesaar") has
decided to move into the Gashda (Fornast Sector, in fact) to seek a
better fortune.  The PCs are all memers of the noble house. The "older
generation" is being played by folk who live some way away and are
involved in making strategic decisions and diplomatic missions etc.
Local players play the "younger generation" and get to do all the dirty
work :-)  I was originally going to roughly sketch the family's
Federation/Imperial holdings and handwave my way to a set of starting
assets drawn from the PE tables, but now my players and I are more
attrated to the idea of fleshing out the actual process of uprooting
such a major concern and moving it into the wilds. This is why I am
interested in the "investment" threads.

I have roughed out a generic "investment" system designed to allow
investment in worlds and trade routes and to work in Resource Units (a
PE concept). I have worked on a 10 percent base return because tax has
to be taken into account and the rates of return so far quoted as
acceptable (4-5%) have been after tax if we take the real world as a
model. I have also considered treating each corporation as a corporate
government with a 20% "tax" level (itself taxed, as this is not the
world government) on all employees and required investment of twice the
combined income of all employees.

In general I think the best approach will be to work on simply paying
for a ship outright and running it for profit.  If this works out to
give a decent return all the other financial stuff will work itself out
one way or another - but the activity (in this case interstellar trade)
must be basically worthwhile to occur. The internal rate of return for
the ships in the T4 "Starships" book vary widely:

Free Trader           9%     (26%)
Far Trader           -2%(!)  ( 3%)
Secure Trader        -2%(!)  ( 4%)
Subsidised Merchant  13%     (43%)
Subsidised Liner      0%     ( 5%)
Large Armed Freighter 6%     (27%)
Luxury Liner          4%     ( 4%)

Figures for freight rates of 1000 Cr/te (4000 Cr/te).  A figure of ~15%
IRR would be required to be attractive.  As you can see a "Secure
Trader" is far from secure and a "Far Trader" will not get very far!  At
4000 Cr/te, however, it is hard to see why a Subsidised Merchant needs
to be subsidised...  It seems to me that this is strong evidence for
differential freight rates depending on safety and length of route.
Alternatively perhaps the designs in Starships! are so non-optimal as to
make these rates meaningless??  I have assumed (a) 100% full holds and
cabins and (b) refined fuel because if (a) were not so the ships would
go to another route unless they *were* subsidised and (b) makes little
difference, especially if refining takes any extra time. Also assumes 25
trips per year (perhaps a little low with refined fuel).

Well, sorry to have rambled so long.

Cheers,

Andy

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #491
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 492



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wind Speeds
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Expanded life support costs
Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?
Illo References
Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
Core Subsector names
Re: requesting feedback...
Re: Core Subsector names
Core subsector names
Re: jumping from atmosphere,
Authorized copies?
Re: Offer to the TML
Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:52:02 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Wind Speeds

>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:56:34 -0500
>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>Subject: Wind Speeds
>
>The jet stream averages 35 mph in the summer and 75 mph in the winter.
>Speeds as high as 200 mph have been recorded, but that is unusual.
>
>Thunderstorms don't typically move very fast, usually something like
>50-100 miles per day.  Austin, Texas is about 170 miles from Houston,
>Texas.  I've lived in both places.  Weather takes a day or two to
>get from one to the other.  Winds in thunderstorms don't normally
>exceed 30-50 mph at the *most*.  Above that and you have a tropical
>storm, a storm of unusually high winds.  Winds of 75 mph and higher
>are only found in hurricanes.
>
>Now obviously turbulence can be more violent, but in my personal
>experience from flying and the fact that planes generally don't
>get turned upside down, such violent, random winds are relatively
>rare.
>
>This is the only atmosphere of any thickness that we know much
>about.
>

Local geography can have a tremendous effect on these values.  I am also a
pilot, and I have been stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs for a
total of four years now.  I have personally witnessed winds in clear air at
ground level in excess of seventy knots (tents blown away, antennae and
trees knocked down, etc.) on one occassion, and one or two incidents of
winds in excess of 50 knots every year - not including thunderstorms.  One
of the very few airline accidents in the past 25 years still listed by the
NTSB as "unsolved" occured at Colorado Springs airport: a 727 on short
final simply rolled completely over and crashed.  The black box was an
older type, and could only confirm the facts without giving an clue as to
why.  Best guess is a "horizontal rotor vortex" (I think that's the term) -
a volume of clear air turbulence that rolls like a giant log off the
mountains - that literally flipped the plane over when it was too low for
the pilot to recover.

I have also witnessed winds in excess of 110 knots on the ground on several
occassions in 1991 in Germany - the trees looked like they had been combed
flat, all in the same direction.  Fortunately, this followed a similar
incident at Fort Hood, Texas, that destroyed almost a billion dollars in
Apaches and Chinooks, so that we were in the habit of hangaring our
aircraft every weekend, or when the weather forcast called for any high winds.

Wind speeds on Mars, by the bye, can typically exceed 300 knots at ground
level, but are so thin that the fines barely move.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:15:06 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 

> > There are at least three games going on IRC that I'm aware of and I 
> > know someone who is planning to start a fourth in a few months.
> 
> Details, details!!!!!!!!!!

Ok! OK! :)

Stuart Dollar runs a game on Sunday nights, 8pm Central on Undernet. 
We usually use Springfield, but the server must have suffered a 
serious crash and has been down for some time. We have been using an 
alternate server that is not connected to IRC at large. Email me for 
details if you'd like to lurk.  My husband might be looking for 
another player or two that are serious about playing regularly.

JD Burdick runs a game on Monday nigts at 7:30pm Central on the 
aforementioned alternate server.  This game has run for over a year 
and has only missed three or four sessions. At present there are no 
openings in this game.

Commander X runs a game, I believe on Tuesday nights and again on the 
alternate server (anyone spot a trend here? :> ).  I don't have many 
details on this one, but the game is centered around the mysterious 
Planet X and reports have it that it is more tech/gear-head oriented 
than the other two.

I have no details at present regarding the forth-coming game other 
than I will be running a quasi-NPC behind the scenes for it.  Feel 
free to email me your interest and I'll try to put you in touch with 
the GM.

Again, feel free to email me on any of the above or for more 
information about gaming on IRC.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:54:12 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:


>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>have orbits that cross the Earth's.

This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
asteroids that can interact with Earth...

John Lansford
"I'm damaged, and I like it. It made me what I am."
Donald Roeser, "Damaged"

http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:06:52
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

 Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk> wrote 
>
>I have roughed out a generic "investment" system designed to allow
>investment in worlds and trade routes and to work in Resource Units (a
>PE concept). I have worked on a 10 percent base return because tax has
>to be taken into account and the rates of return so far quoted as
>acceptable (4-5%) have been after tax if we take the real world as a
>model. I have also considered treating each corporation as a corporate
>government with a 20% "tax" level (itself taxed, as this is not the
>world government) on all employees and required investment of twice the
>combined income of all employees.
>

If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on your
average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.

Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares). 

I'd be interested in how you quantify interstellar trade - my GUTTT system
basically works from bottom up, and says for every Cr1000/dton you can make
on a run on average, 1% of the smaller planets economy will be dedicated to
that trade. Then I toss in higher-value cargoes than 'vanilla' Traveller
supports (which leads to *very* long trade routes), which have relatively
smaller GDP impact (but trade with 20 planets of 0.2 percent of GDP impact
each turns into a big chunk of GDP).

The idea of rating Corporate interests on a planet as a planet for PE
purposes is interesting - to extend the idea, you could also have culture
etc ratings for each company.

>In general I think the best approach will be to work on simply paying
>for a ship outright and running it for profit.  If this works out to
>give a decent return all the other financial stuff will work itself out
>one way or another - but the activity (in this case interstellar trade)
>must be basically worthwhile to occur. The internal rate of return for
>the ships in the T4 "Starships" book vary widely:
>
>Free Trader           9%     (26%)
>Far Trader           -2%(!)  ( 3%)
>Secure Trader        -2%(!)  ( 4%)
>Subsidised Merchant  13%     (43%)
>Subsidised Liner      0%     ( 5%)
>Large Armed Freighter 6%     (27%)
>Luxury Liner          4%     ( 4%)
>
>Figures for freight rates of 1000 Cr/te (4000 Cr/te).  A figure of ~15%
>IRR would be required to be attractive.  As you can see a "Secure
>Trader" is far from secure and a "Far Trader" will not get very far!  At
>4000 Cr/te, however, it is hard to see why a Subsidised Merchant needs
>to be subsidised...  It seems to me that this is strong evidence for
>differential freight rates depending on safety and length of route.

Yes. The theory with a Far Trader was always it would go broke shipping
freight but it could make more profit than a jump-1 ship could shipping
speculative cargo (imagine two worlds 4 parsecs apart where you have a
expected specualtive profit of Cr 3000 per dton. A jump-1 ship gets a
revenue of Cr750/jump, a jump 2 ship Cr 1500/jump).

Frankly, I find fixed freight rates silly. Do you have a copy of Hans'
Freight and Passenger table ?

Actually, a freight system that took into account the merchant's skills
would be nice.

>Alternatively perhaps the designs in Starships! are so non-optimal as to
>make these rates meaningless??  

Yes. Starships, as a product, is one of the reasons IG went broke. Their
quality control was just too inconsistent.

>I have assumed (a) 100% full holds and
>cabins and (b) refined fuel because if (a) were not so the ships would
>go to another route unless they *were* subsidised and (b) makes little
>difference, especially if refining takes any extra time. Also assumes 25
>trips per year (perhaps a little low with refined fuel).

This about cancels out with 90% of capacity and 30 trips a year, which you
can easily do if you have agents on planets with warehouses to store cargo
until shipment.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:07:27 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

At 7:54 PM -0500 5/15/98, John Lansford wrote:
>On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>>have orbits that cross the Earth's.
>
>This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
>asteroids that can interact with Earth...

How do they know how many they haven't found?

This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
go undetected.

I'm thinking:  how do they know how many go undetected if they
haven't detected them?

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:53:26 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Expanded life support costs

"Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com> wrote:
> Note that T4 uses a transportation charges of Cr4000 per ton. So in T4
> low berths lose Cr2100 per DT over shipping an equal amount of cargo,
> mid-passage loses Cr1000 per DT, and high passage breaks even. Don't
> even consider large staterooms and rip those low berths out now!

Although the text says "4000" per  ton, the ship revenues 
table on page 113 says 1000 per ton. I'm not sure which one 
is the typpo, but I'm guessing the text.

Speaking of T4 typo's are the ship prices in there for 
real? 21 Mcr for a scout/courier? 

Steve
- --
Ulf fra Siaelland          wulf@sea.southern.co.nz
Quarterly Gules and Argent
Southron Gaard, Caid

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:39:06 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?

Here it is, courtesy of Trav. Digest #10, pg.#24:

Apge        Perite      Ameros  Shinkan
Sanches   Mekee     Core      Kaskii
Bunkeria   Cemplas  Chant    Dingtra
Cadion     Ch'naar   Dunea   Saregon

Hope that helps,

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:06:50 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Illo References

OK floks, I need some assistance here.

1) I need illo references to give to various artists so they can get the look
of Gurps Traveller right.

2) he vast majority of my Traveller material is in a storage locker in
Illinois (don't ask...it is too painful)

3) I need everything that exists on the following subjects:

     Strephon
     All castes of Droyne. 
     The Vegans
      That d*mned dandelion/flower/plant thing/race alien that no one can
pronounce and that starts with an "L"

Email to lkw@io.com
Fax to (512) 447-1144

Thanks,

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:06:36 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire

On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:08 +0000, Pearson Publishing wrote:

> I am curious to know, for those of you using T4 rules, how you handle 
> burst fire, as opposed to auto fire.  For example, the ACR has an 
> option to fire 3 round bursts.  However, now difference is listed for 
> damage, or the possiblity to hit other targets.  Thanks for the 
> input.

You will have to check two other sources to find this out.  Emperor's
Arsenal details a few new combat rules, including autofire.
Guns!Guns!Guns! by BTRC, however, has a Traveller conversion section that
is far more complete.

In essence, use the following chart:

Rnds/Sec    Rnds/turn     Damage     ROF DM   Weapon Type
   4-          <30         1.5x        -1
  5-10        30-60         2x         +0
 11-20        61-120       2.5x        +1
 21-50       121-300        3x         +2        RF
  51+          >300         4x         +4        VRF

Autofire is based on a /sustainable/ ROF.  If a weapon runs out of ammo
during a six-second combat turn, it is not reloaded to get a higher ROF
(eg: a machine pistol that empties its 32 round magazine in 2 seconds still
fires at an *average* ROF of 5.33 rounds per second *during a six-second
combat turn*, for a +0 autofire DM).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:30:56 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Core Subsector names

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> asks:

>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  Does
>anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what they are?

From Traveller's Digest #8:

A: Apge
B: Perite
C: Ameros
D: Shinkan
E: Sanches
F: Mekee
G: Core
H: Kaskii
I: Bunkeria
J: Cemplas
K: Chant
L: Dingtra
M: Cadion
N: Ch'naar
O: Dunea
P: Saregon

With library data spread out in TD# 8 thru 10...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:55:36 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: requesting feedback...

At 01:32 PM 5/15/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Hello folks,
>
>	I still need to purchase the following T4 products:
>
>		Imperial Squadrons

Companion piece to PE.  War rules based heavily on Fifth Frontier War,
rules on playing Naval characters.  Problems:  My ship designs got
butchered down to puppy chow, no maps, some problems with the sample
scenarios. 7 out of 10.

>		The Annililik Run

Awful.  AD&D in space.  Attack of the Mutant Space Mold.  0 out of 10.

>		Naval Architect's Manual

Nice deckplans, but some of the text is non-canonical or just odd.. like
putting ship gunners in clear blisters for visual (!) aiming.  This isn't a
book of complete ship plans, but elements.  Good for mining ideas. 6 out of
10.

>		Emperor's Vehicles

Not worth it.  The vehicles are so thinly described and poorly done it's a
joke.  They don't even have the tech level listed!  Not even worth getting
for the completeness factor.

How bad are The Annililik Run and Emperor's Vehicles?  If you must have
them, send me your address and I 'll *give* you mine.  This from the guy
who grins at Traveller auctions because I already own most everything.


- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:09:32 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Core Subsector names

GypsyComet, Seth Kimmel,

Thank you, and much obliged.

Scott


- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:04:57 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Core subsector names

Fri, 15 May 1998 15:13:50 -0700 Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote:

>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  >Does anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what >they are?

A: Apge
B: Perite
C: Ameros
D: Shinkan
E: Sanches
F: Mekee
G: Core
H: Kaskii
I: Bunkeria
J: Cemplas
K: Chant
L: Dingtra
M: Cadion
N: Ch'naar
O: Dunea
P: Saregon

Source: TD 10

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:29:09 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: jumping from atmosphere,

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote

> All the GM's with players who have tried jumping from atmosphere,
> raise your hands... :)

I have had a charecter on a ship that other [foolish] charecters took
into jump space from the inside of a pressurized bay on the planets
highport within .1 diameter of the planet.  They did this while
attempting to chase down another scout ship which was doing the same
thing.  But wait, it gets worse.

They put this ship into jump space inside the high port

_while_there_were_people_on_the_hull_of_the_ship_.

Fortunately for them the GM was using MT rules which, as written,
provide a drastic penalty for jumping within 10 diameters but do not
impose any further penalty for jumping from within 1 diameter, or within
0.1 diameter, or while in atmosphere.  They also state [SOM] that the
jump bubble forms 1 to 2 meters from the hull.  All the players on the
hull made their Dex rolls not to be cut in half by the jump field and
then came abord the ship as if nothing had happened.  My charecter was
the ships Engineer at the time (with good skill in Engineering, some
skill in Physics, and a high Education).  I could _not_ persuade the
other charecters, or the other players, how mind numbingly dumb they
were.  We came out of jump just fine, 14 days and 29 parsecs later,
IIRC.  This only encouraged the players to try further reckless
misjumps.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:46:28 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Authorized copies?

Yes please. Any and everything I don't have.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:04:37 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Offer to the TML

Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> I'd be happy to make copies of any material *which won't violate
> copyrights*. In other words, I won't copy items which are currently in
> print or are available online, either at an online store or currently up
> for auction. I *will* point you to the store or auction, though. Once the
> auction is over, though, we can talk.

Just FYI, that would still violate copyright laws, or to be more
precise,that a copyrighted work is not in print or available online or otherwise,
does not give anyone the right to reproduce or otherwise the copyright
of the owner of such a work.  These factors are also not reflected in
the Fair Use doctrine.  So, you would have no defense.

Having said that, your generosity is welcomed.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

Ian or Katts wrote:

> If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on your
> average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.

With ya on that.

> Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
> Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
> they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
> megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
> to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares).

I think you must be right.  (Good idea with the non-voting shares.  This
seemsreasonable since you the block of votes could be a very low percentage
but you make it up on volume of corporations.  Then, literally,
'What's Good for Zhunastu Industries, Is Good for the Imperium.'

It seems to me that the Imperium could probably work on a basis similar to
the United Nations, in terms of funding.  All member states pay a percentage
of their Gross National Product (might actually be Domestic, I'm not sure).
The percentage is the same for all members.  Since the Imperium works on
a similar principle, i.e., not directly governing member states but the spaces
between the stars.


Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:29:18 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.

Thanks

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:50:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

Svenson, Gregory (FL51) wrote:

> I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
> that were not available in MT (law school, attorney,

This stuff was in MT?  Dang!  I should have looked at this stuff.
I never have seen _any_ MT stuff.

If someone would graciously post or send me the stuff on law school
and the attroney career, I would be very grateful.
I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.

Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
love it.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:39 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

AHL was the largest ship designed with deck plans during the course of
Traveller. I don't remember exact numbers, something like 100,000 td ?
Published as a game with full color deck plans, scenarios, adn the near
mythical Suppliment 5 (unavailable without purchase of the game) whic
included stats and "tumbnail" views of the various decks of the AHL, along
with discriptive material.

Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
don't remember if it covered air combat or not.

Hope this helps a bit
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?


>Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
>and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.
>
>Thanks
>
>Bloo
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:59:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>

Follow-up to my previously posted message (See below) to answer questions
that were asked by most everyone that responded.

FIRST - The Software

1.  CU-SeeMe software allows people with a camera "broadcast" live images
over the net and be displayed by ANYONE on the reflector.  People who are on
just watching are caller "Lurkers" but any and all can type (chat) live and
everyone will see that.  You can also use a sound card and attach a
microphone and speakers/headset to do live voice.  This eats up a tremendous
amount of bandwidth and slows things down pretty bad.  The key is everyone
can see what I broadcast with my video and every can chat at the same time.
2. ICQ is a little program that lets you know when another person that also
uses ICQ gets on the I-net and you can send notes to them individually.  I
want to use this as a supplement to CU-SeeMe and possibly (if we have no
choice) a back-up means of communication.
3. Both pieces of software are free.
4. I have a very high speed line (cable modem) so I won't see much lag from
the players.  It's possible that the players will see some lag from me
because I'm sending a great deal of bandwidth but generally if there is NO
change in the video that frees up the bandwidth and things will go pretty
normal.

SECOND - The Game
1. My intent right now is to use TNE (maybe T4) character generation in a
pre-rebellion CT/MT setting (just after the 5th FW).  The exact area is
still being decided but it will wind up in Zho space (passing thru the
Marches).  This keeps the TL up to 14/15 (which I like) and there is plenty
of published material available for any and all who still have it (I can
provide some).
2. I will put up a list of character professions/abilities that I need for
this assignment and the players will roll their own, bring one from another
campaign, I'll roll it for you, well you get the idea.  Final players will
get my seal of approval (just to keep some game balance) and we will head
out.
3. This is a subsidized adventure and a ship with NPC will be provided by
the sponsor.
4. Standard weapons and some combat materials will be provided also.
5. Initial setup will be done thru E-mail and I will keep records on my end
for the player characters.
6. Most other functions and the bulk of the record keeping will be
accomplished by the players.

The response was much larger than I first anticipated and if their are other
GM's who would be interested in running a game using this format please
contact me and I will help get you started.  There are a number of benefits
by doing it long distance:
1. Propping your feet up while you sip your suds and you don't have to drive
home afterwards.
2. Don't have to get the dining room table cleaned off to run the game.
3. No SPECIAL house cleaning for your guests (my wife likes this one, she
bought me the video camera when I explained how it would work <BG>).
4. You can keep secrets easier and not get that "I'll do what Joe's doing"
from a player that thinks he/she might have missed a hook that someone else
caught. (I especially hate this one)  This makes for better balance in my
way of thinking and it makes the players declare things much better.
5. You can have subplots running with players without getting someone else's
nose in it.
6. NPC's are easier to use in ALL ways.

I'm sorry for intruding on the TML again but I put this back up because of
the type and quantity of the responses.  The Traveller world needs to get a
larger following.  I hope no one gets too upset.  I believe that this will
be my last post on the subject.

As always, please respond directly to me in private E-mail
thomharr@mediaone.net and I will do my best to reply to everyone.  To those
who have already replied, I hope this answers the initial questions you had
and will help you make up your minds whether to play or not.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: CU-Seeme "Live" game.


>I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme"
and
>"ICQ" software.  If you are familiar with these two pieces of software and
>are interested in playing Traveller from home please contact me at
>thomharr@mediaone.net and NOT on the TML.  Just so you know, you don't need
>a camera to see what I'm broadcasting.  If things go as planned I will
start
>it up the middle to end of June.  This is due to some overwhelming family
>matters that won't be resolved before then.   As far as I know we will be
>the very first gaming group to ever do RPG this way.  [About time we put
>this TL-7/8 technology to work. ;-)]
>
>Thanks to the TML for allowing this intrusion.
>
>Thom Harris
>Greater Metro Boston, MA - USA
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #492
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, May 17 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 493



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MT Character Generator
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
asteroid counting
Re: Illo References
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: Authorized copies?
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: MT Character Generator
Imperial Revenue Service
Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire 
Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: Illo References
Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?
Re: Relative Prices
Re: New Mexico
RE: New Mexico and the National Labs.
Re: New Mexico
Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
Re: LIDAR

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:06:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator


>
>
>Svenson, Gregory (FL51) wrote:
>
>> I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
>> that were not available in MT (law school, attorney,
>
>This stuff was in MT?  Dang!  I should have looked at this stuff.
>I never have seen _any_ MT stuff.

>
Actually the Law school and attorney were in TNE.  He's saying he is going
to add them to his MT character generator.
>
>If someone would graciously post or send me the stuff on law school
>and the attroney career, I would be very grateful.
>I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.
>
>Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
>love it.
>
>Bloo
>
Congratulations Steve!  I have the books for TNE and it isn't a large
write-up, I'll see if I can type it in for you or maybe someone who REALLY
can type has already done this I won't have to.  Let me know at
thomharr@mediaone.net and I'll see what I can do.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:01:21 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

At 11:38 AM 5/16/98 -0400, you wrote:
>AHL was the largest ship designed with deck plans during the course of
>Traveller. I don't remember exact numbers, something like 100,000 td ?
>Published as a game with full color deck plans, scenarios, adn the near
>mythical Suppliment 5 (unavailable without purchase of the game) whic
>included stats and "tumbnail" views of the various decks of the AHL, along
>with discriptive material.

60,000 tons.  The AHL was also heir to some of the strangest names ever
given to starships.

>Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
>it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
>Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
>don't remember if it covered air combat or not.

Striker was a minitures game.  It' included early signs of rampant
gearheadism with wonderful design sequences.

- --

Douglas Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
Domo Arigato, Mr Roboto...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:39:47 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: asteroid counting

>>This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
>>asteroids that can interact with Earth...

(This should technically be "5% above [insert size here]"

>How do they know how many they haven't found?
>This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
>go undetected.
>I'm thinking:  how do they know how many go undetected if they
>haven't detected them?

Asteroids can be assumed to be uniformly distributed in certain ways
(for example, spread out in azimuth around the sun); they've examined
5% of the space in question deeply enough to be sure of seeing most
asteroids above some size threshold.

(For example, if asteroids were stationary and distributed over the
whole sky, you could think you'd found 5% of them after you'd imaged
5% of the whole sky.)

The real situation is more complicated because asteroids move, and
come in different sizes and albedoes, so you have to do some clever
statistics from the ones you have found - but unlike computer security
penetrations asteroids are well-behaved, generally. (For example, if
you want to know how many faint ones your wide-area survey is missing
you spend a longer-than-normal time staring at one small patch of sky
so you can see fainter objects.)

If the assumption of relatively uniform distribution is wrong, of
course, the 5% estimate will be wrong - there could be a zillion
asteroids with Military Ultrablack hulls on highly eccentric orbits
currently all piled up around the south celestial pole 20 AU out -
but it's unlikely.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 14:58:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Illo References

Do you want photocopies of the LBB's and the Alien Modules?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 15:32:09 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

Congradulations on passing the Bar.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:50:13 -0600
From: Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Re: Authorized copies?

The number of auctions containing Traveller material on Usenet right now is
nearly unbelieveable...and that includes the boxed FFW.

At 10:46 AM 5/16/98 +0100, you wrote:
>Yes please. Any and everything I don't have.
>
>MJD.
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 16:04:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

On 16-May-98 dberry@hooked.net wrote:
>>Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
>>it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
>>Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
>>don't remember if it covered air combat or not.
> 
> Striker was a minitures game.  It' included early signs of rampant
> gearheadism with wonderful design sequences.

I've still got the original 3 books of Striker, but *not* the coverless one or
the errata sheet.

And it *wasn't* early signs of rampant gearheadedness, it *WAS* gearheadedness
to the maxx.  Looking it over & comparing it to MT, I can see where they got
the ideas for vehicle design for MT from...

Keven

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 13:29:04 +0100
From: Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

Ian, 

Thanks for your response.  Comments and further Qs interleaved below:

Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> writes:
<snippage>
>If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on your
>average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.
>
Yes, I know. Especially since overheads (including bounty and such on
skippers) will have to be covered by any finance outfit as well. I
reckon about 1/84 rather than 1/240 per month for 40 years would be OK,
except that the ship owners would never make money...

>Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
>Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
>they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
>megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
>to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares). 
>
TCS seems to say that they take 30% of each planetary governments tax
income. This is in ca. 1100 TI, of course, so I don't know how
applicable it is to other eras. If interworld trade and starship liens
*are* tax free it would make a big difference, but would still require
more "raw" profit to allow for overheads.

>I'd be interested in how you quantify interstellar trade - my GUTTT system
>basically works from bottom up, and says for every Cr1000/dton you can make
>on a run on average, 1% of the smaller planets economy will be dedicated to
>that trade. Then I toss in higher-value cargoes than 'vanilla' Traveller
>supports (which leads to *very* long trade routes), which have relatively
>smaller GDP impact (but trade with 20 planets of 0.2 percent of GDP impact
>each turns into a big chunk of GDP).
>
I haven't seen this and the "trade route" part of what I have is as yet
unformed. Is it downloadable? If not could you send me a copy?

>The idea of rating Corporate interests on a planet as a planet for PE
>purposes is interesting - to extend the idea, you could also have culture
>etc ratings for each company.
>
Not to mention Infrastructure and the ability to purchase rights to
Resources. I really must write this up in a form that other people could
understand - my current scrawl is, well, "personalised".

>Yes. The theory with a Far Trader was always it would go broke shipping
>freight but it could make more profit than a jump-1 ship could shipping
>speculative cargo (imagine two worlds 4 parsecs apart where you have a
>expected specualtive profit of Cr 3000 per dton. A jump-1 ship gets a
>revenue of Cr750/jump, a jump 2 ship Cr 1500/jump).
>
OK, but even at 4000 Cr/te it struggles and can't cover the "official"
and generous finance...

>Frankly, I find fixed freight rates silly. Do you have a copy of Hans'
>Freight and Passenger table ?
>
No - something else I have missed. Where can I get it?

>Actually, a freight system that took into account the merchant's skills
>would be nice.
>
Ah, yes, and that takes into account the dynamic changes in the world
economies at each end of the route and.. er, oh, right. :-)


Cheers,

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:20:22 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire

> I am curious to know, for those of you using T4 rules, how you handle 
> burst fire, as opposed to auto fire.  For example, the ACR has an 
> option to fire 3 round bursts.  However, now difference is listed for 
> damage, or the possiblity to hit other targets.  Thanks for the 
> input.

A better method IMO is to make one roll for each shot.  If you have alot of
dice, it's not a problem at all.  Is there any purpose to recoil in the T4
rules (i wouldn't know since I don't use em). If not, put a modifier based on
recoil. Therefore single shots have a greater likelyhood of hitting, but a
burst has a better chance overall (collectively).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:20:21 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

>> I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
>> that were not available in MT (law school, attorney,
>
> This stuff was in MT?  Dang!  I should have looked at this stuff.
> I never have seen _any_ MT stuff.

Those civilian carreers (among others) are from TNE, not MT.  He added those
FROM TNE to his MT generator.  I made all the civilian carreer terms only 1
year in my campaign (w/ appropriate reduction in skills), as well.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:54:48 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

Sethkimmel wrote:

> Congradulations on passing the Bar.

  Thanks, but the bar comes comes in July.  All I've done so
far is finish three years of school to get a JD, which is
required to take the bar exam in most states.

Still, I thank you and the rest of the TML crew.

Thankfully, bar review courses are flexible enough that I can
play more traveller.  :-)

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 18:43:48 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Imperial Revenue Service

Several thoughts on taxes in the Imperium:

First off, I have no idea what's been said in cannon since all I ever
played was the original LBB traveller and I don't have much of a head
for trivia.  Given that, here's some ideas...  feel free to ignore
them:

1.  The easiest way for the Imperium to tax is to assess some tax on
each world or system and let them collect it however they want.  This
maybe a per capita tax, GNP tax, and/or a resource tax (10% of all
the tungsten mined or something like that).

2.  The next easiest would be some kind of VAT or sales tax.  Assuming
the Imperium is basically capitalist, taxing consumption is better for
the economy (it encourages people to save money, making more money
available for capital investment) it is also easier to collect since
it doesn't require anyone to report any income and doesn't try to
keep track of every penny everyone in the Imperium earns, it just
collects a percentage of each purchase.

I suspect that #1 is more likely given that the Imperium doesn't run
worlds, but #2 might be in place in starports and/or other Imperial
territory.

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:17:34
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Tax Policy

>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>> Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
>> Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
>> they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
>> megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
>> to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares).
>
>I think you must be right.  (Good idea with the non-voting shares.  This
>seemsreasonable since you the block of votes could be a very low percentage
>but you make it up on volume of corporations.  Then, literally,
>'What's Good for Zhunastu Industries, Is Good for the Imperium.'
>

The problem comes in at what do you get out of doing it (apart from a warm
inner glow from doing your Imperial Duty, and two tickets to the Subsector
Duke's Annual Ball), or when you have to sign over the equity.

Now, we seem to know that tramp starships dont have to cut Uncle Cleon in
for 5%, so presumably it doesnt apply to all off-planet corporations.

The simplest method is to get one of the lawyers on the list (*hint*) to
come up with a form of words that forces every entity owning 2 or more
starships to cut the Imperium in for 5% of net profits. Data analysis on
starport route and declared cargo records can indicate when someone is
trying to dodge tax, although I'm not sure they'd worry with 200 dton Far
Traders.

>It seems to me that the Imperium could probably work on a basis similar to
>the United Nations, in terms of funding.  All member states pay a percentage
>of their Gross National Product (might actually be Domestic, I'm not sure).
>The percentage is the same for all members.  Since the Imperium works on
>a similar principle, i.e., not directly governing member states but the
spaces
>between the stars.

If the Imperium doesnt have the problmm of one very big, very well-armed
member state disputing rulings it doesnt agree with, claiming it's ownn
laws have extra-territorial reach and refusing to pay it's bills on time,
then this isnt a problem. Except of course if some planetary government is
understating it's planets income for tax purposes (I can see all sorts of
fun and games after some schmuck Emperor agrees that certain expenses
should be tax-deductible). Hmmmm. Now *thats* a scenario for nobles ...
'Ahhh, so your hunting trip went well Jamie my boy ... we're having this
little issue with Almaring ... they appear to have forgotten about the
GSBaG facilities on their world while doing their accounts ... I know,
paperwork is such a bore. How about you get together some of those
disreputable but endearing rogues you call your friends, and drop over
there for a look see, just in case we need someone who went to the right
schools to testify'.

Ian Whitchurch

>
>
>Bloo
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 21:32:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire 

>  Is there any purpose to recoil in the T4
> rules (i wouldn't know since I don't use em). If not, put a modifier based on
> recoil. Therefore single shots have a greater likelyhood of hitting, but a
> burst has a better chance overall (collectively).

It's a DM for you to *miss* on your next shot if you try to get one off really 
fast.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 98 05:39 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

Moin Andy Gibson,

> TCS seems to say that they take 30% of each planetary governments tax
> income.

	As far as I know the imperium taxes domains, domains are taxing
	subsectors, aso. MegaCorporations and free traders can become taxed
	when leaving the extrality zone. Which is sometimes 100 diameters
	and sometimes sqaremiles free trading area around the downport.
	Megacorporations are of course more lucky than free traders as
	they own funds of imperial stock, and vice versa.

> I haven't seen this and the "trade route" part of what I have is as yet
> unformed. Is it downloadable? If not could you send me a copy?

	I've also done a trade router, send me a subsector in either DGP
	or GAL format, and you receive a list of lucrative and subsidary
	routes.

> OK, but even at 4000 Cr/te it struggles and can't cover the "official"
> and generous finance...
> >Frankly, I find fixed freight rates silly. Do you have a copy of Hans'
> >Freight and Passenger table ?

	The problem is that a tramp frighter is'nt realy designed to
	live from subsidary trade. So it can not compete in the MCr/Jump
	price. Most tramp frighters also can't live from the typical
	MerchantPrince+KnigthFall rules. Think about that 200dt frighters
	are more like a yacht with cargo room than like a real economy
	horse. The crew has to be something special to bring it on profit.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 01:11:31 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

Dear "Bloo";

Ahzhanti High Lightning is a GDW 1981 boardgame that is essentially a
humumgous version of Snapshot. They are both man to man combat games that take
place inside spaceships using 1.5 meter squares, and the mechanics are a more
detailed version of those found in Classic Traveller books and Mercenary (book
4). AHL comes with 14 large deck maps, counters, Supplement 5 (a history of
AHL cruisers and their mechanics), a rulebook, and a sheet of weapons data.
The ship is 60,000 tons displacement, and supplement 5 states that the ship
has 84 decks. It lists the desks in order, and tells you what type of deck map
to use. BTW the ship has its' decks perpendicular to the direction of thrust,
so think of it as a skyscraper-put her on her ass pointing "up" and the people
will appear walking on her decks normally (90% different from most ship
plans).

Striker is a set of miniatures rules that are compatable with Traveller. The
scale is 1mm to a meter, and each vehicle, and heavy and support weapon model
represents one real one. Each model figure represents one person, and are
mounted on four figure 1inch square fireteam bases. Elite troops like recon
scouts, officers, and of course PC's (player characters) can be mounted
individually. The rules emphasise command control (command points, chain of
command, etc.), and have a great section on designing vehicles. This unlike
TCS, and HG (Trillion Credit Squadron,High Guard), has volume (14m3=1
displacement ton) and weight (metric tons). I suspect that this is the
grandfather of FFS (Fire, Fusion and Steel). There was a Striker II printed as
part of the TNE (New Era) series. It has TOE's (table of organization and
equipment) for units, and scenarios that Striker lacked. The game mechanics
use the Command Decison (WWI,II,80's WWIII) miniatures rules that GDW
decided would be their "house rules".

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 12:47:37 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Illo References

> From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
> Do you want photocopies of the LBB's and the Alien Modules?

Yes please.

Legate
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:41:36 +0100
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> writes,
>Howdy, all.

Hi!  I've been away for a while, but I'm back to only-mostly-lurking 
now.

>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  Does
>anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what they are?

From _Travellers' Digest_ #10:

        A: Apge
        B: Perite
        C: Ameros
        D: Shinkan
        E: Sanches
        F: Mekee
        G: Core
        H: Kaskii
        I: Bunkeria
        J: Cemplas
        K: Chant
        L: Dingtra
        M: Cadion
        N: Ch'naar
        O: Dunea
        P: Saregon

This matches core.dat in the Galactic Classic galaxy too, and Jo Grant 
used the same subsector names when putting together the Pocket Empires 
extension to Galactic.
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:14:12 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Relative Prices

At 01:36 am 5/13/98 PST, you wrote:
>Have that crew with the 100 tons of beer get their drive knocked
out,
>and be on a collision course with something, say an asteroid.
They'll
>be fine if they could only apply a few m/s of delta-V. Will they
>realize that the beer can provide the required thrust if they kluge
up
>some plumbing and a proper exhaust nozzle?
>
>At least two SF writers (Poul Anderson and A. Bertram Chandler) have
>used this gag. It's also the subject of a Trek related filk song.

	Asimov's first published story also ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:08:59 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

At 08:29 am 5/12/98 -0700, you wrote:
>In Traveller-digest V1998 #479, Alan Peery <peery@io.com> writes:
>
>> My geography may be lacking(so check a large-scale map :-)), but
the
>> first things I'd look at visiting out in the region are Sandia and Los
>> Alamos National Labs. 
>
>Well, I can't say for sure about Sandia, but I know LANL doesn't have
>a visitors center and you'll be turned around at gunpoint if you don't
>have business there.  I have a physicist friend who works in their
>"Energetic Materials Research Facility" (read "high, High, *HIGH*
>Explosives") and he can't even *hint* at what he does on the job.
>
>I *do* know that Sandia is at *least* that secure, if not more so.

	However, several years ago at least there was a nuclear weapons
museum open to the public there. I don't believe it was actually
within the secure area, but it's on the base. (Secure area--closest
I've ever come to seeing someone get shot right in front of my eyes.
One of the contractors with us, not familiar with the rules, just
walked out the exit on our way to lunch without showing his badge to
the guard. Well, tried to. One step past the line, and the guard
already had his hand on his sidearm, unstrapped, and demanding in a
loud voice that the individual halt ...)

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:22:44 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: New Mexico and the National Labs.

At 11:27 am 5/13/98 -0600, you wrote:
>Dull Sword, Bent Spear, Broken Arrow....What's the fourth?  and are there
>more terms for other types of incidents?

	Don't recall off the top of my head what the term was, but it
referred to a situation where a DOE transport required emergency
sanctuary/protection while out & about with "physics packages" ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:20:58 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: New Mexico

At 02:08 am 5/13/98 PST, you wrote:
>On the other hand, there's a junkyard where LANL sends scrap from
>projects. You can find the *damndest* things there. Chunks of exotic
>metals, remains of instrumentation. All sorts of stuff. 

	I've got a newspaper article dating back from before Milstar was
launched ... somehow this guy got hold of one of the high-powered
amplifiers, and was trying to hook it into his company radio system!
The OSI descended on him like a load of bricks when he contacted
Hughes to try to get some schematics and specifications. According to
some experts, if he'd managed to get it working, he'd have knocked
most radios & TVs off the air for a fairly large radius.

	Never know what you can find at government surplus auctions!

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:36:27 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

>	No as to a system for handling Magic well I was figured
>that I'd treat it like it was three skills.
>	
>	Magic Control
>	Magic knowledge
>	Magic Research
>	
>	Now I use a exp system and I would simple make these skills
>into a percent(%) score and the player could add exp points to any
>skill to raise their ability. I would base a player's starting roll
>off their related stats, and then they could increase them as they
>went along. Well this is just a idea how to handle this issue, what
>I'd like to hear is if anyone else has tackled this issue? If so
>what did they do and etc?

	I started to create a magic plug-in for the MT and TNE Task Systems
a while back, but lost my gaming group. Basically, I figured that
magic was an Impossible Task, modified by relevant magic skill and a
"Degree of Difficulty" for a given spell. The relevant characteristic
was "Mage Gift," and the degree of difficulty for a given spell
depended on various factors. Being a gearhead, I was basing my ideas
on the book "Fantasy Wargaming" which contains a fairly coherent,
detailed magic system. Different areas of magic included elemental
magic, energy magic, life magic, command, and divination
(Foresight/Farsight/etc.)

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 09:38:05 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: LIDAR

At 08:38 am 5/15/98 +1200, you wrote:
>Could someone please explain what a LIDAR is, and what the
difference
>between a LIDAR and a LADAR is. I came across a LIDAR on a ship
design, and
>thought it was a LADAR until I realised that it's volume, cost, etc
were
>different.

	LIDAR and LADAR should be the same, just a slightly different
acronym. LAser Detection and Ranging vs LIght Detection And Ranging. 

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #493
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 18 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 494



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Spinward Marches
Re: The Spinward Marches
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: MT Character Generator 
"Starport Tales"
Re: MT Character Generator 
RE: Authorized copies?
Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
I need help with generating systems.
RE: I need help with generating systems.
Re: I need help with generating systems.
Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender
Fw: Titan Games Preview for 5/17/98

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 08:49:14 -0700
From: "Brannon \"Ben\" Boren" <brannonb@blarg.net>
Subject: The Spinward Marches

Hi Folks,

I'm a veteran Traveller player (been playing since 84), but new to this
list. 

Now that Imperium Games is no longer in business, I have given up on them
coming out with a Spinward Marches sourcebook, and I am seeking a copy of
the original Spinward Marches book. I don't even really need the book
itself, if someone would consider photocopying it for me. If someone does
want to sell one, I would be interested in buying it.

Thanks,
Ben

- --
Brannon "Ben" Boren
brannonb@blarg.net
http://www.mog.net/brannonb/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:43:15 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: The Spinward Marches

At 08:49 AM 5/17/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>I'm a veteran Traveller player (been playing since 84), but new to this
>list. 
>
>Now that Imperium Games is no longer in business, I have given up on them
>coming out with a Spinward Marches sourcebook, and I am seeking a copy of
>the original Spinward Marches book. I don't even really need the book
>itself, if someone would consider photocopying it for me. If someone does
>want to sell one, I would be interested in buying it.

What you want to look for is "The Regency Sourcebook" by GDW for Traveller,
The New Era.  While it is TNE,a nd their are many changes, it is by far the
best place for collected data on the Marches, Deneb, and the other two
sectors that make up the Domain whose names escape me.
- --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:54:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

On Sat, 16 May 1998, Steve Daniels wrote:

> I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.
> 
> Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
> love it.

One thing I found while playing a Zhodani lawyer/accountant: Traveller
characters tend to do things like pull guns when you pull a subpeona.
I'd definitely sign up for that self-defense course... :-)

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 17:20:16 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator 

> On Sat, 16 May 1998, Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> > I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.
> > 
> > Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
> > love it.
> 
> One thing I found while playing a Zhodani lawyer/accountant: Traveller
> characters tend to do things like pull guns when you pull a subpeona.
> I'd definitely sign up for that self-defense course... :-)

Heheh.

Coulda been worse.  Coulda been a tax collector.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 13:27:48 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: "Starport Tales"

>as a hijacker, you're screwed) sticking pistol muzzle in your mouth
>(remembering to shoot for the top, not the back, of your mouth) and
>saving the locals all that hassle.

  I've been informed that my less-than-helpful hints on how hijackers
can resist arrest parties is medically wrong, at least for humans.

>>>Small problem: you got it backwards. Shooting up merely bruises the brain
>>>if directly up, as the bullet travels between the hemispheres.

Result:
>>>various states of vegetable to functional, with none having a remaining IQ

  For your edification, we presnt the possibility that this could be a
starport tale (aka "urban myth"?), perhaps deliberately propagated by
the evil Imperial authorities to help ensure capture intact for their
organ transplant banks :> (now there's a mustering out benefit not on
the chart for Scouts...)

Credit (or blame) is due the TML's own Mr. Hostman.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 16:53:19 -0500 (CDT)
From: Alan Peery <peery@io.com>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator 

On Sun, 17 May 1998, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:

> Heheh.
> 
> Coulda been worse.  Coulda been a tax collector.

That's for NPCs, the work-a-day stiffs.  I was kept busy with;

   * currency speculation 

      Geee, who could have expected that awful tourist 
      problem on ZZZZZ?

      Damn, we knew that the trade-war between StarDreams
      and SleepyStars was going to be tough to control.
      If only we'd gotten there sooner, we might have 
      able to buy off the mercenary contingent with
      options on the SleepyStars shares...

   * purchasing agent

      Yes, indeed, the standard fee for starship acquistion 
      on YYY is 3% of the cost of the ship.

      You know, it's a good thing he didn't tell me at the 
      start what he really wanted.  I would have told him
      the 1% rate that is a bit above average for 
      the area for this size of ship.  I suppose the fact 
      that turrets were actually configured does make up 
      for the some of the difference.  Ready for that 
      steak I owe you?

   * tour guide and body guard

      You know, my Lord, when you invited me along for
      some very important negotiations, I thought they 
      involved the mining contract.  With the location
      of the mining colony, working out payment and
      bonds for the security aspects of this partnership
      was going to keep me tied up for most of a week.
      How long have you known that an Aslan second son 
      was going to claim the entire third continent for
      his own?  And that we were going hunting with 
      him?  Unarmed?



Any differences between this rendition and what happened during the
campaign may be blamed on loose case or morals brought on by
complemplating multiple LBOs simultaneously. :-)

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 15:03:14 -0700
From: "Brian Mays" <bmays@genscope.com>
Subject: RE: Authorized copies?

>
>The number of auctions containing Traveller material on Usenet right now is
>nearly unbelieveable...and that includes the boxed FFW.
>

I bet it's because of the demise of IG.  I remember when GDW folded, the
used games section of my local game store was flooded with all things GDW.
The same thing happened in the past few months:  the shelves are full of
used T4 stuff.  It's been sitting there for quite a while.

You'd think it would be the opposite: that there'd be a run on whatever
material is left.  Ah, well.

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:48:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

David Golden Wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Being a gearhead, I was basing my ideas
on the book "Fantasy Wargaming" which contains a fairly coherent,
detailed magic system. Different areas of magic included elemental
magic, energy magic, life magic, command, and divination
(Foresight/Farsight/etc.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I wonder if we're thinking of the same "Fantasy Wargaming" book - 
the one I have has a magic system that basically says, "wizards from
mythology don't have spell books. What they want to happen, happens".
The rules had the wizard say what effect he wanted, the GM pulled
a difficulty number out of his hat, then the player hunted around for
mystic signs, times of day, astrological sign-related stuff and such
to get the difficulty level down. It had plenty of details and coherency
in the astrological sign info (probably cribbed from any $2.00 new ager
star sign book), but the rest of the magic system had about as much 
substance as the Emperor's New Clothes.

It was very strange to see a Fantasy RPG that spent so much time
bitching about how unrealistic all the other games in the genre were... :)


Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 20:10:05 -0400
From: "David" <Bushta@Prodigy.Net>
Subject: I need help with generating systems.

Greetings,

I have just bought the World Builder's Handbook and would like to use it to
generate a system but it seems some key information is missing.  It starts
out with Star System orbital zones and then goes straight into planetary
detail.  Can some one please fill me in on the missing details.  Thanks.
Also I know B,A,F are star types but what is the number after them?

Regards,
David

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 18:34:12 -0700
From: Douglas Glatz <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: I need help with generating systems.

The WBH completes the process that is started by MTs Referee's Manual.  The 
Ref's Manual covers system development, and world generation.  The WBH 
polishes the world generation.

The number following the Stellar Type is the decimal classification of the 
star, but I'm not exactly sure what it defines.  There are others on the 
list who are far better qualified to give the real life answer for ya.

If you have any other questions about the system, feel free to call on me. 
 I've been living in these books for quite a while now, as I code a VB 
application that will do system generation down to the planet level.  I 
hope to be releasing an Alpha version (system development only) shortly, 
followed eventually by the beta version (incorporating WBH).

douglas


- ----------
From: 	David[SMTP:Bushta@Prodigy.Net]
Sent: 	Sunday, May 17, 1998 5:10 PM
To: 	traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: 	I need help with generating systems.

Greetings,

I have just bought the World Builder's Handbook and would like to use it to
generate a system but it seems some key information is missing.  It starts
out with Star System orbital zones and then goes straight into planetary
detail.  Can some one please fill me in on the missing details.  Thanks.
Also I know B,A,F are star types but what is the number after them?

Regards,
David

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:19:58 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: I need help with generating systems.

> http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/1056/HRdiag.jpg
>

Hertzsprung-Russell Diagram
The H-R diagram compares the brightness of a star with its temperature.
The diagonal line running from the upper left to the lower right is
called the Main Sequence. Stars lying on the Main Sequence are blue when
they are bright and red when they are dim. Stars in the upper right
(called Red Giants) are very bright, but still appear red. Stars near
the bottom (known as White Dwarfs) are white, but not very bright. This
diagram was developed independently by Ejnar Hertzsprung, a Danish
astronomer, and Henry Norris Russell, an American astronomer.

Luminosity class I is at the top of the chart and Luminosity class V is
at the bottom. Spectral classes are listed at the top.  As you move from
left to right within a spectral class the digit tells you how far.  So a
K0 would be a typical K class star while a K5 would be half way between
K and M.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 23:12:12 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender

If starship morgages require mpayment of 1/240th of the loan ammount for
40 years isn't this 520 payments, not 480 payments as the Imperial
calender seems to have 13 months.   Thirteen twenty eight day months (+
holiday) = 365 days in the Imperial year.  This is a much more
consistent system then our current mish mash of 30 day, 31 day, and 28
or 29 day months.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 07:46:27 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Fw: Titan Games Preview for 5/17/98

To All,

    This is not a personal advertisement!  I don't get a kickback or
anything like that.

    I have been ordering a whole lot of out of print Traveller items from
this company and have had really good results.  He has most of the LLB's
(1-6 anyway) in stock all the time and great many items from the old
publishers, i.e. "The Judges Guild", "GDW ", "Paranoia Press", etc.  The
owner responds right away with order confirmation but unfortunately doesn't
take credit cards.  Even so, I usually have my items within two weeks from
placing my order.  He also has a number of the "Imperium Games" T4 books, I
just ordered "Pocket Empires" for example.

    Knowing from experience the difficulties of ordering on-line and thru
snail mail I thought I would give this guy a plug and at the same time help
out the members here on the TML find some of the harder to come by material.
Having spoken with him (in correspondence) several times I know that he is
willing to track down items too.  He's working on a couple for me right now.

    Well plug mode off.  I hope he can help you get that old book for your
stash!  The URL is:
www.titan-games.com

Thom

I'm forwarding this weeks  "weekly update" of things he's picked up.  Take a
look at the "Seeker" stuff plus some GDW books that are waaayyyyy out of
print.

- -----Original Message-----


>Howdy Everyone,
>    I had my second retail order arrive this week, so the update below is
>pretty evenly split between used items and retail items.
>
>Website Update:
>    We're working on more revisions for the web-site, you'll be seeing more
>improvements in the next several weeks... :-)
>    Web Site location: http://www.titan-games.com/
>
>Standard Info:
>    If we've put you on this mailing list and you'd like to be removed,
please
>let us know, we don't wish to send unwanted mailings to anyone.
>
>    Have a good week, more items next Sunday,
>        Quincey & Janna Koziol
>        Titan Games, Inc.
>        koziol@titan-games.com
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
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>N=New - Still in the original shrinkwrap
>M=Mint - I took it out of the shrinkwrap (for some reason) and put it
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>NM=Near Mint - Corners or Binding have minimal or no wear
>VF=Very Fine - Corners, Binding have small wear, Cover may be slightly
scuffed
>F=Fine - Corners, Binding, or Cover have wear or small creases, etc.
>G=Good - Corners, Binding, or Cover more wear, large creases or scuffing
>Fa=Fair - Corners, Binding, or Cover very worn, many creases and much
scuffing
>P=Poor - Corners, Binding, or Cover excessively worn, possible tears in
cover
>___________________________________________________________________________
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>
>Note: The most current version of the catalog can also be found on our
web-site:
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>___________________________________________________________________________
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>
>Used Items:
>-----------
>    Magazines:
>        Dragon:
>            134[$5, VF], 169[$3, G], 237[$4, VF],
>        Dungeon:
>            23[$5, Fa], 24(cover loose)[$3, Fa],
>        Star Wars Adventure Journal:
>            1.1[$17, VF], 1.2[$18, NM], 1.5[$14, NM], 1.6[$13, NM],
>            1.7[$12, NM],
>        White Wolf:
>            12[$10, F], 23[$9, VF], 26[$10, NM], 29[$10, NM],
>    Avalon Hill:
>        (Bookcase Games)
>            Tobruk (841) (punched)[$15, Box VF-Contents NM]
>    Chaosium:
>        (Call of Cthulhu)
>            Dreamlands Boxed Set (2315-X) (handouts cut out)[$24, Box
VF-Contents NM]
>            Cthulhu Now (2322) [$17, NM]
>            Strange Aeons (2353) [$10, NM]
>            Dreamlands (3308) [$20, NM]
>            S. Peterson's Field Guide to Cthulhu Monsters (5105) [$22, N]
>            S. Petersen's Field Guide to Creatures of the Dreamlands (5107) [$20, N]
>        (Pendragon)
>            Blood & Lust (2711) [$12, NM]
>        (Runequest)
>            The Wyrm's Footprints (4501) [$12, N]
>    Daedalus:
>        (Generic Fantasy RPG)
>            Nexus: The Infinite City (2001) [$12, VF]
>    Flying Buffalo:
>        (Citybook)
>            Citybook III: Deadly Nightside (8513) [$5.5, F]
>        (Misc. RPG)
>            Treasure Vault (8520) [$5, F]
>        (Tunnels & Trolls)
>            Labyrinth - solo dungeon #3 (8103) [$5.5, F]
>    Game Designer's Workshop:
>        (Traveller)
>            Adv. 5 - Trillion Credit Squadron (319) [$13.5, VF]
>            Adv. 6 - Expedition to Zhodane (325) [$13.5, VF]
>            Adv. 9 - Nomads of the World-Ocean (333) [$12, F]
>            Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face (313) [$10.5, F]
>        (Twilight:2000)
>            Rendezvous in Krakow (2018) [$7.5, VF]
>    Grendel Productions, Ltd.:
>        (Leviathan Miniatures)
>            Leviathan Rulebook (?) [$12, NM]
>    Hero Games:
>        (Champions)
>            Demons Rule (412) [$7, NM]
>        (Danger International)
>            Danger International Rulebook (017) [$10, VF]
>    Mind Ventures:
>        (Don't Look Back RPG)
>            Don't Look Back Rulebook (2nd Ed, softbound) (1201) [$10.5, NM]
>    Modern Myth Publications:
>        (GURPS)
>            IST Kingston (0101) [$6, NM]
>    Pacesetter:
>        (Chill)
>            Haunter of the Moor (2007) (insert loose)[$6, VF]
>    Palladium:
>        (Heroes Unlimited)
>            Heroes Unlimited (Rev. Ed) (500) [$10, NM]
>    Seeker Gaming Systems:
>        (MegaTraveller)
>            "Celebrating 10 Years of Traveller" Poster [$4, M]
>            System Defense Boat and Jump Shuttle (1016) [$14, M]
>            Imperial Small Craft, Vol. 2 (1018) [$13, M]
>            Subsidized Merchant (1019) [$14, M]
>            Lab Ship (1021) [$14, M]
>    Steve Jackson Games:
>        (GURPS)
>            Aliens (6010) [$9, VF]
>            Time Travel (6020) [$11, NM]
>            Blood Types (6073) [$12, NM]
>            Supers Adventures (6116) [$9.5, NM]
>    TSR:
>        (Boot Hill)
>            Boot Hill Boxed Set (2nd Ed) (7005) [$15, Box G-Contents NM]
>        (Gamma World)
>            GW2: Famine in Far-Go (7502) (insert loose)[$3, G]
>        (Marvel Super Heroes)
>            MHAC2: Avengers Assembled (6854) [$4, Fa]
>            MHAC7: Concrete Jungle (6865) [$4, Fa]
>            MHAC8: Weapons Locker (6868) [$8.5, VF]
>            MA2: Avengers Coast-to-Coast (6874) [$12, NM]
>            MX2: The X-Potential (6875) [$8.5, F]
>            MU1: Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Abomination thru Dreadnought (6878) [$12.5, F]
>            MU3: Gamer's Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Mad Thinker thru Sentry (6883) [$16.5, NM]
>            MA4: The Fantastic Four Compendium (6889) [$12, N]
>        (Star Frontiers)
>            2001: A Space Odyssey (7815) [$13, VF]
>            2010: Odyssey Two (7816) [$13, VF]
>        (Top Secret)
>            TS002: Operation: Rapidstrike (7601) (insert loose)[$3.5, G]
>            TS003: Lady in Distress (7602) (insert loose)[$4, G]
>        (Top Secret/S.I.)
>            TSAC5: Commando (7631) [$10, NM]
>        (D&D)
>            (Basic Rules)
>                B2: The Keep on the Borderlands (9034) [$1.5, Fa]
>            (Companion Rules)
>                CM2: Death's Ride (9118) [$7.5, VF]
>            (Expert Rules)
>                X1: The Isle of Dread (9043) [$3, F]
>                X2: Castle Amber (9051) [$9.5, G]
>                X4: Master of the Desert Nomads (9068) [$8, VF]
>                X12: Skarda's Mirror (9188) [$12.5, VF]
>        (AD&D1)
>            (Dragonlance)
>                DL1: Dragons of Despair (9130) [$7, F]
>                DL2: Dragons of Flame (9132) [$8, VF]
>                DL3: Dragons of Hope (9131) [$8, VF]
>                DL4: Dragons of Desolation (9139) [$10, NM]
>            (Generic Modules)
>                C5: The Bane of Llywelyn (9109) [$11.5, VF]
>                D1-2: Descent into the Depths of the Earth (9059) (inserts loose)[$11, G]
>                G1-3: Against the Giants (9058) (photocopied inserts)[$8, P]
>                I1: Dwellers of the Forbidden City (9046) (interior marks, inserts loose)[$5, G]
>                I3: Pharaoh (9052) [$6.5, G]
>                I4: Oasis of the White Palm (9053) [$7, F]
>            (Greyhawk)
>                WG5: Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure (9112) [$15.5, VF]
>            (Rulebooks)
>                Players Handbook (1st Cover) (2010) (name inside cover)[$10.5, VF]
>                Dungeon Masters Guide (1st Cover) (2011) [$8.5, G]
>                Dungeoneer's Survival Guide (2019) [$8, VF]
>                Wilderness Survival Guide (2020) [$8, VF]
>                Wild Things (2020Sxxx1501) [$25, F]
>        (AD&D2)
>            (Dark Sun)
>                DSM3: Marauders of Nibenay (2424) [$13, Boxed-N]
>            (Greyhawk)
>                Greyhawk Wars Boxed Set (1068) [$20, Boxed-N]
>            (Monstrous Compendium)
>                MC8: Outer Planes (2118) (no folder or dividers)[$10, VF]
>            (Spelljammer)
>                SJR2: Realmspace (9312) [$12, VF]
>            (Underdark Campaign)
>                Night Below: The Underdark Campaign (1125) [$19.5, Box NM-Contents NM]
>    Web Games:
>        (Webs RPG)
>            Web of Horrors (0004) [$8, NM]
>    West End Games:
>        (Masterbook)
>            The World of Indiana Jones Boxed Set (45000) [$10, Box VF-Contents NM]
>        (Star Wars)
>            Star Wars Campaign Pack (40004) [$6, VF]
>            The Abduction (40053) [$7, VF]
>            Star Wars Rulebook (hardbound, 2nd Ed) (40055) [$14, VF]
>        (TORG)
>            Aysle (20507) [$10.5, VF]
>    White Wolf: (WWP)
>        (Mage: The Ascension)
>            The Sorceror's Crusade (4800) [$19.6, N]
>        (Streetfighter)
>            Streetfighter Rulebook (9500) [$11, NM]
>        (Vampire: The Masquerade)
>            The Succubus Club (2104) [$8, NM]
>            The Hunters Hunted (2205) [$7, NM]
>
>Retail Items:
>-------------
>    Miniatures:
>        Citadel Miniatures: (CIT)
>            (Epic 40K)
>                (Eldar)
>                    Eldar Fire Prism Tank (978342) [$26.3, N]
>            (Gorkamorka)
>                Rokkit Buggy (8114) [$16.1, N]
>            (Warhammer 40K)
>                (Imperium)
>                    Vindicare Assasin (8051E) [$6.3, N]
>                    Caladius Assasin (8051F) [$6.3, N]
>                    Eversor Assasin (8051G) [$6.3, N]
>                    Culexus Assasin (8051H) [$6.3, N]
>                (Orks)
>                    Ork in Mega-Armour w/Bolter (8047B) [$4.9, N]
>                    (Special Characters)
>                        Zodgrod Wortsnagga (8038G) [$6.3, N]
>                (Sisters of Battle)
>                    Sisters of Battle Squad (9302) [$9.8, N]
>                (Space Marines)
>                    (Champions)
>                        Techmarine (8005J) [$4.2, N]
>                (Space Marines II)
>                    Space Marine Scout Sergeant (8002F) [$3.5, N]
>                    Space Marine Scout w/Heavy Bolter (8002G) [$3.5, N]
>                    Space Marine Scout w/Needle Rifle (8002H) [$4.2, N]
>                    Space Marine Scout w/Shotgun (8002J) [$4.2, N]
>                (Space Marines w/Heavy Weapons)
>                    Space Marine w/Heavy Bolter (8004C) [$4.2, N]
>    Agents of Gaming: (AOG)
>        (Babylon 5 Wars)
>            (Miniatures)
>                Earthforce Hyperion Cruiser (AOG-BW-212) [$6.3, N]
>    Atlas Games: (AG)
>        (Ars Magica)
>            Lion of the North (1150) [$10.5, N]
>    Avalon Hill: (AVA)
>        (Misc. Board Games)
>            Starship Troopers: The Movie (6457) [$21, N]
>    Chameleon Eclectic: (CAM)
>        (The Babylon Project RPG)
>            Gamemaster's Resource Kit (051-002) [$9.8, N]
>    Chaosium: (CHA)
>        (Call of Cthulhu)
>            Dark Designs (2332) [$13.3, N]
>            Taint of Madness (2354) [$13.3, N]
>            Ye Booke of Monstres II (2358) [$8.4, N]
>            The Complete Masks of Nyarlathotep (2361) [$16.1, N]
>            1920s Investigator's Companion (2370) [$13.3, N]
>        (Call of Cthulhu Fiction)
>            Shub-Niggurath Cycle (6004) [$7.7, N]
>        (Elric RPG)
>            Sailing on the Seas of Fate (2906) [$9.1, N]
>        (Stormbringer)
>            Perils of the Young Kingdoms (2113) [$13.3, N]
>    Component Game Systems, Inc.: (CGS)
>        (Babylon 5 Game System)
>            Minbari:Empire Starter Kit (511) [$9.1, N]
>            Centauri:Empire Starter Kit (521) [$9.1, N]
>            Narn Regime:Empire Starter Kit (531) [$9.1, N]
>    Destination Games: (DSG)
>        (Pulp Dungeons)
>            Halls of the Coven (705) [$2.8, N]
>            The Zombie's Curse (710) [$2.8, N]
>            Treasure Most Magical (713) [$3.5, N]
>            Fools and Their Money (714) [$3.5, N]
>    Dream Pod 9: (DP9)
>        (Heavy Gear)
>            (Core Products)
>                Life on Terra Nova (002) [$16.1, N]
>            (Tactical Supplements)
>                Tactical Field Support (016) [$14, N]
>    FASA: (FAS)
>        (Earthdawn)
>            (Sourcebooks)
>                Adept's Way (6106) [$12.6, N]
>        (Shadowrun)
>            (Sourcebooks)
>                Threats (7121) [$12.6, N]
>    Games Workshop: (GW)
>        (Gorkamorka)
>            Gorkamorka Boxed Set (8764) [$49, N]
>        (Warhammer Fantasy Battle)
>            (Warhammer Armies)
>                The Empire (0130) [$17.5, N]
>                Dwarfs (0133) [$17.5, N]
>        (Warhammer 40K)
>            (Boxed Sets)
>                Warhammer 40,000 Basic Set (151) [$49, N]
>                Dark Millenium Boxed Set (152) [$28, N]
>    Imperium Games, Inc: (IMP)
>        (T4: Mark Miller's Traveller)
>            Traveller Game Screen (1510) [$9.1, N]
>    Iron Crown Enterprises:  (ICE)
>        (Rolemaster, Standard System)
>            Rolemaster Character Record Sheets (5504) [$8.4, N]
>            Black Ops (5700) [$11.2, N]
>    Kenzer & Company: (KEN)
>        (Generic Fantasy RPG)
>            The Secret Temple of Adajy (102) [$7, N]
>    Last Unicorn Games: (LU)
>        (Aria)
>            Aria Roleplaying (1001) [$21, N]
>    Pinnacle Entertainment Group: (PEG)
>        (Deadlands Dime Novels)
>            Perdition's Daughter (9000) [$3.5, N]
>            Independence Day (9001) [$3.5, N]
>            Night Train (9002) [$3.5, N]
>            Under a Harrowed Moon: Savage Passage (9004) [$3.5, N]
>    ProFantasy Software: (PFS)
>        (Campaign Cartographer Software)
>            Campaign Cartographer II (202) [$70, N]
>    Steve Jackson Games: (JAC)
>        (GURPS)
>            Russia (6082) [$25, M]
>            Warehouse 23 (6523) [$14, N]
>    TSR:
>        (Dragon Dice)
>            Monsters & Amazons (1501P) [$4.2, N]
>        (Novels)
>            (Forgotten Realms)
>                (Double Diamond Triangle Series)
>                    The Abduction (8634) [$1.4, N]
>                    The Mercenaries (8636) [$2.1, N]
>                (Lost Empires)
>                    The Lost Library of Cormanthyr (8579) [$4.2, N]
>                (Misc.)
>                    Evermeet: Isle of Elves (hardback) (8578) [$15.4, N]
>        (AD&D2)
>            (Player's Handbook Rules Supplement)
>                PHBR2: The Complete Thief's Handbook (2111) [$14, N]
>    West End Games: (WES)
>        (Star Wars RPG)
>            Stock Ships (40150) [$10.5, N]

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #494
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 18 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 495



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Expaded Life Support Costs
Re: Hijacking summation
RE: MT Character Generator
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Active Traveller Campaign
Re: Traveller Economics
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Titan Games
Re: Imperial Revenue Service
Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Imperial Revenue Service
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:13:53 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Expaded Life Support Costs

John Buston writes:

>>MINIMAL: Cr1,000/month.
>>BARELY ADEQUATE: Cr2,000/month. 
>>ADEQUATE: Cr3,000/month. 
>>GOOD: Cr4,000/month. 
>>LUXURIOUS: Cr4,500+/month
> 
>IMO the base cost would be higher and the spread be closer. Say 500 apart.

I actually agree about the spread although I think the base cost should be
lower. But I'm trying to stick as closely as possible to the canonical
figure of Cr4000/month (Which, IMO, is actually far too large; one of
these days I'll get hold of the life-support rules from FF&S2 and see
what they work out as). So as a compromise I kept the Cr4,000 but used a
large spread.

>You might want to factor in using cheap labor from poor worlds or
>"permanent" working passage labor as well.

Yes. Michael Koehne reminded me that after the Hard Times some starships get
along for months and years on their own resources. Frankly, I don't know
just how to account for that. 

>>Because passengers only stay onboard ships for an average of 8 days or so,
>>life support costs for passengers are paid per jump and not per month.
> 
>>Economy Passage:	1000
>>Middle Passage:	1200
>>High Passage:		1400
> 
>T4 rules quote *life support* as an overhead cost of Cr2000 per TRIP per
>stateroom.

Nope. It's Cr2,000 per person, not per stateroom. And its quoted per trip
only because the rules assume that a ship makes two jumps per month (Check
the description of the typical trip). There is a rule in a CT publication
(_Beltstrike_) that makes it abundantly clear that life support costs are
Cr2,000 for two weeks, regardless of whether you jump or not. Also look
under the rules for long-term subsistence. They state that crewmembers have
their board and lodging while staying on a planet covered by the normal
life support costs. Which is exactly why passengers should not burden the
life support system as much as crewmembers.

>It also says that cargo has no overhead cost, even for
>livestock, which can't have all that different basic life support needs.

Interesting point. I hadn't considered that. But IMO that is an oversight
rather than deliberate. Hmmm... just how much should life support for
livestock cost? Weight in kg divided by 100 and multiplied by the cost
for a human?

>So what this Cr2000 is, unless it is tax I don't know. 

Several publications have explained that the cost is for life support and
that it is an average; sometimes the costs are less, sometimes they are
more, but they average out to Cr2,000/jump.

Btw. IF it was a tax then it should be stated in the rules since not every
campaign runs in the official Traveller Universe and and not every trip is
made inside the Imperium. In any case, it can't all be tax, since it
includes enough food to feed a crewman for 14 days.

 
>Do the crew have to feed & muck-out the animals? I like the role-play
>opportunities this presents :)

More likely that the owner sends a groom along. If the crew has to do the
dirty deeds then they should at least charge money for it.
 
>T4 also quotes an overhead cost of Cr100 per trip per low berth. What
>does this represent?

I haven't been able to come up with any suggestion. Especially since a low
passage costs about Cr500 less than it logically should (assuming jump-1).
 
>Note that T4 uses a transportation charges of Cr4000 per ton.

That was a misprint (Officially declared so by an IG type person).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:20:36 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Hijacking summation

Steven Hudson writes:
>  "Tamper-proof" transponders are products of the background;

That depends. If you go by the rule that if two canonical bits of evidence
contradict each other then you should go with the most recently published,
then, yes, tamperproof transponders are canonical. If you go by the rule
that if two bits of canon contradicts each other then you should go by the
one that makes the most sense (or has the best roleplaying potential ;-),
then, no, they are not.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 09:22:43 -0400
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: RE: MT Character Generator

I have been looking at converting some of the TNE careers to CT and/or
MT format in preparation for adding them to my MT Character Generator
program. I am finding that it is quite an effort to do this and that I
don't personally have the background in those careers to do a good job
of choosing which skills should be in the Life, Service, Education and
Advanced Education skills tables.

I am specifically looking at the Attorney, Technical Priesthood,
Journalist, Farmer, Wealthy Traveller and Entertainer careers. The
others would be of interest, too, of course.

Has anyone done this already?

If you have, or know of someone who has, would it be possible to send me
information or point me to the appropriate place in the TML archives or
a web site. I would like to see what was used for Admission, Commission,
Promotion, Special Duty and Re-enlistment rolls as well as the skills
tables.

Thanks in advance!

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:29:21 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Jo Grant writes:

>>Tonnage does not equal number of ships.
>
>What I had heart proffered was that the reccomended amount of escort to
>have was 1ton of escort ship for every 10t of cargo ship. I agree it would
>be silly to base such a estimate on the number of ships. One Close Escort
>could hardly ably defend 10 super tankers, 

I would think that the size of an escort force would depend on the threat
it is guarding against and not the size of the convoy. Though I suppose
there would be some correlation (fatter targets attract more predators),
the correlation would be far from linear. 

>not would it make sense for a battleship to escort 10 free traders.

No, but that's because a battleship is of much more use elsewhere. If an
escort force were big enough to protect 10 free traders, it would IMO be
big enough to protect 50 free traders.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 15:51:52 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Active Traveller Campaign

Andy Gibson writes:

>I was originally going to roughly sketch the family's
>Federation/Imperial holdings and handwave my way to a set of starting
>assets drawn from the PE tables, but now my players and I are more
>attrated to the idea of fleshing out the actual process of uprooting
>such a major concern and moving it into the wilds.

Keep in mind that money has no use value at all, only exchange value.
Money is valuable only because it can be exchanged for things that
really are useful. If the people of the frontier your PCs are moving to
don't have any significant trade with any Imperial planet, their credits
and solars are worthless out there. The only way to move wealth is to buy
stuff and bring it with you and hope that you can find someone who think
it is useful stuff (Unless the planets they are moving to happens to be
on some kind of artificially inflated metal standard, in which case
your PCs would be in luck).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:06:50 +0200 (METDST)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Traveller Economics

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
>Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
>they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
>megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
>to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares). 

Judging by TCS and _Striker_ defense taxes is propably assessed on the
planets based on population. As for the rest, some TNS newsbriefs from
the Rebellion Era directly mentions the revenues owed by the Vilani
Megacorporations to the Imperial Family. I once noticed that with one
single exception all the companies whose share distribution we know of
have a minimum of 2 percent owned by the Imperial Family. I think we
should establish that the price of an Imperial Charter is a flat 2
percent of the shares (The exception -- one of the Megacorporations, I
forget which -- is either a misprint or there is some sort of story
behind why the Imperial family sold their 2% -- something they usually
NEVER do!).

I don't see why it has to be non-voting stock. I mean, I suppose it could
be, but I see no real reason why it has to be.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:17:17 +0100
From: trisen@postmaster.co.uk
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

Ian or Katts wrote:
> Steve Daniels wrote:
> > Ian or Katts wrote:
> > > Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income
> > > - how the Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting
> > > question (me, I think they invoice planetary governments,
> > > and own large chunks of megacorporations. I think to become
> > > a Limited Imperial Corporation you have to cut the Imperium
> > > a block of non-voting shares).
> >
> > I think you must be right. (Good idea with the non-voting shares.
> > This seems reasonable since you the block of votes could be a
> > very low percentage but you make it up on volume of corporations.
> > Then, literally, 'What's Good for Zhunastu Industries, Is Good
> > for the Imperium.'
>
> The problem comes in at what do you get out of doing it (apart
> from a warm inner glow from doing your Imperial Duty, and two
> tickets to the Subsector Duke's Annual Ball), or when you have
> to sign over the equity.
>
> Now, we seem to know that tramp starships dont have to cut Uncle
> Cleon in for 5%, so presumably it doesnt apply to all off-planet
> corporations.

Here's my take ...

The Imperium is a capitalist/trade-based empire  that  rules  the
space _between_ planets.  I think the issue of taxation would  be
dealt with several ways.

First:  a planet is allowed to run its own  economy  as  it  sees
fit, but Imperial Planetary Tax is levied based  on  interstellar
trade volume.  (If a planet wants  to  be  isolationist  and  not
trade with its partners thats fine, no tax to  pay  and  possibly
gains Red Zone status.  But if they want the expected  prosperity
that full participation in Imperial membership would bring,  they
have to pay their dues.)  Note that the inside of a  starport  is
beyond on exterality line and therefore Imperial 'space'  ...  so
Imperial Tax Inspectors  can  easily  monitor  trade  throughput.
Ships moving cargo without going through the starport are  liable
to be impounded or blown out of the sky.  Imperial Planetary  Tax
is paid to the subsector government who passes on a share to  the
sector  government  who  passes  on  a  share  to  the   Imperial
government.

Second: a one-time levy against capital made when LIC  status  is
granted to any corporate entity.  Said levy to be  5%  non-voting
shares paid direct to  the  Imperial  family.  A  corporation  is
normally registered on one world  and  subject  to  that  world's
legislative and tax requirements.  However,  a  corporate  entity
can  re-register  into  the  Imperium  (gaining  LIC  status)  in
exchange for a) the _right_ to conduct interstellar business, and
b) immunity from planetary regulations of off-planet  operations.
(eg. if Acme LIC has branch offices on Rhylanor and Porozlo, then
only the Rhylanor office is subject to Rhylanor's rules and  only
the Porozlo office is subject to Porozlo's  rules  ...  both  are
subject to Imperial rules.)  Privately run trading vessels  below
1000 dt are exempt from requiring LIC to operate.

Third: revenue a LIC corporation receives that is not subject  to
any planetary taxation defaults to Imperial Corporation  Tax  (at
20% of net revenue).  This  is  calculated  by  subsector  unless
special dispensation  by  a  Sector  Duke  grants  a  sector-wide
calculation.  Losses are offset against revenue and can be rolled
over for up to 10 years (20 years if sector-wide).

There would be a myriad of additional minor revenue streams  from
permits and certificates ...  Cr100  safety  certificate  awarded
after each ship's annual maintenance, required for any  insurance
policy  or  loan  ...  Cr150  per  annum  subsector-wide   animal
livestock transportation certificate ... Cr75 per  annum  sector-
wide foodstuffs handling certificate ... Cr10 per  passenger  per
jump starport tax ... and so on.

Finally, a Sector Duke can waive any of these charges (in full or
in part) to help develope economically depressed  systems  within
his sphere of influence.

(Oh, and don't  underestimate  the  business  importance  of  the
"Subsector Duke's Annual Ball", or whatever the local  equivalent
is.   This  is  where  serious  business  deals  are  made.   The
distinction between business and politics is blury at the best of
times ... more so once it goes interstellar.)



Regards PLST
"All hands will wear sidearms." - Forbidden Planet (film)
___________________________________
To sign up for a free email account, visit http://www.postmaster.co.uk.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:14:25 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>Jo Grant writes:
>
>>>Tonnage does not equal number of ships.
>>
>>What I had heart proffered was that the reccomended amount of escort to
>>have was 1ton of escort ship for every 10t of cargo ship. I agree it would
>>be silly to base such a estimate on the number of ships. One Close Escort
>>could hardly ably defend 10 super tankers,
>
>I would think that the size of an escort force would depend on the threat
>it is guarding against and not the size of the convoy. Though I suppose
>there would be some correlation (fatter targets attract more predators),
>the correlation would be far from linear.

Well, Imagine if you will an area in which it is fairly likely that an
unescorted vessel will be attacked.  Perhaps there is a high incidence of
Vargr Raiding going on, or maybe there is a tradewar, or a real war, and
merchants who wish to trade in the area are willing to give up a percentage
of their profits to pay for more firepower on a temporary basis.  It makes
perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat traders, they
jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at the
destination.  The merchants get a big defense boost without making a
capital investment in weapons, the CE gets a job. Generally raiders will
simply avoid escorted convoys in favor of unescorted targets anyway.

The question is, how many ships will feel safe escorted by one 400 ton CE?
Jo feels this question can be answered by a ratio of 10:1; up to 4000 tons
of vessel can be escorted by 400 tons of escort.  This is a balance of cost
and protection.  One 400 ton trader cannot make enough money (usually) to
justify the rental of an escort of its own, likewise, 40 traders will not
feel protected by one escort.  There is a balance point somewhere.  10 to 1
is a good place to put it without doing a lot of analysis.

>>not would it make sense for a battleship to escort 10 free traders.
>
>No, but that's because a battleship is of much more use elsewhere. If an
>escort force were big enough to protect 10 free traders, it would IMO be
>big enough to protect 50 free traders.

But would 50 free traders pay for that protection?  What value would they
place on it?  How big a ship would be needed to satisfy the merchant
captain's worries?  How does the escort's reputaiton figure in?

The numbers should work out thus;

A group of traders makes X in net profit per fortnight from a cargo run
(without escort).  The escort has expenses Y each fortnight.  X must be
enough larger than Y that subtracting Y will leave a satisfactory profit
(or not too high a loss).  Quesiton is what is a satisfactory profit/loss?

That is determined by several unmeasurables;  Safety of the area,
personality of the captain(s), reactions of the locals to any troubles (or
perceived troubles), reputation of the escort (if any).

Ok, I'll arbitrarily assign a rating of -10 to +10 to an area.  Core sector
(in say 1100) is a -10 (very low chance of incidents), Glisten, with its
high navy presence and hugevolume of traffic, is rated at a -2 (low chance
of incidents), a world one jump-1 away from Glisten is a '0', Mertractor,
on the Imperial border, near Aslan space and the Sword worlds, but still
pretty busy (on an xboat route) is probably a +2.  Aramanx, a busy world,
but near the Vargr border is a +4.  Middle of a real war zone is +10,
middle of a tradewar zone is +6.

Next the Captains.  most are out to make a profit, but know that there is
no profit in a burning wreck of a ship, or in a captured cargo and ransomed
or enslaved crew.  I'd assign each a catiousness rating, then modify it
using the area code above and roll less on 2D to hire an escort.

So a cautious captain (rating 5) in a war zone (+10) will always hire (15-
on 2d6) an escort, and will occasionally hire an escort in a border zone
(+2, roll 7- on 2d6), and rarely in a 'safe' zone (rating 0, roll 5- on
2d6)  while a foolhardy captain (rating -1) will regularly hire an escort
in a war zone (-1+10=9, roll 9- on 2d6), and never in a safe zone (rating 0
- -1 = -1 or less on 2d6).

Rating is affected by the captains personality and how well armed he is to
begin with.  A trader in, say, a converted Azhanti High Lightning (somehow
procured from the Navy with weapons intact) will have a -1 cautiousness,
while a 400 ton subsidized merchant with two single lasers installed is
likely to be more cautious.

Now, we all know that a trader values his profits.  Briefly a trader will
be willing (but might not need) to give up area rating^2 if over 0 or
2^Area Rating if under zero (and .9% if zero) in profits to get an escort
(once the decision is made to hire).  So a trader in a +10 area will give
up *all* of his profits (100%) to safely leave or cross the area.  I bet
he's not coming back soon though.

Here's the table;
Rating  Percentage
- -10	0.010
- -9	0.012
- -8	0.016
- -7	0.020
- -6	0.028
- -5	0.04
- -4	0.06
- -3	0.11
- -2	0.25
- -1	0.5
0	0.9
1	1
2	4
3	9
4	16
5	25
6	36
7	49
8	64
9	81
10	100

There are likely to be more than a few escorts available in busy, dangerous
areas that will be able to escort a specific craft, driving the price down.

This does, however, give us a ratio to work with to determine the ratio of
escort tonnage to merchant tonnage.  If we assume that warships cost and
require roughly twice the amount of maintenance as equal tonnage merchants,
then in an area that is rated '10' two merchant tons will pay for one
escort ton, if the rating is '5' it takes eight, and in a '1' zone it takes
200 trader tons (a 400 ton escort for an 80,000 ton trader?).  I would
arbitrarily guess that an escort *could* convoy twice that much tonnage
without upsetting the merchants, making a tidy profit.  Finding 80,000 tons
of ships leaving all at once is the excercise of the escort captain.

Negative ratings quickly make escort duty unprofitable.  Competition
effects I leave up to the referee.

I think that's non-linear enough to keep Hans happy.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:42:17 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

Ian or Katts wrote:

> The simplest method is to get one of the lawyers on the list (*hint*) to
> come up with a form of words that forces every entity owning 2 or more
> starships to cut the Imperium in for 5% of net profits.

Don't look at me.  I just successfully completed my J.D. without taking anytax
courses.  Yippee!

> 'Ahhh, so your hunting trip went well Jamie my boy ... we're having this
> little issue with Almaring ... they appear to have forgotten about the
> GSBaG facilities on their world while doing their accounts ... I know,
> paperwork is such a bore. How about you get together some of those
> disreputable but endearing rogues you call your friends, and drop over
> there for a look see, just in case we need someone who went to the right
> schools to testify'.
>
> Ian Whitchurch

Brilliant!

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:08:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games

  I've dealt extensively with Titan Games, and I've never had any
significant problems with them, even up here in the Great White
North (perhaps Alaska, OTOH?). If you drop by their web-site check
out their "sale" items; there used to be plenty of minor brand
Traveller items for $4 or $5 each, new, shrinkwrapped.

  Customer service has been routinely excellent. To get added to their
mailing list try:
        koziol@titan-games.com

>Website Update:
>    Web Site location: http://www.titan-games.com/
...
>        koziol@titan-games.com
...
>Note: The most current version of the catalog can also be found on our
web-site:
>    http://www.titan-games.com/
...
> Game Designer's Workshop:
>        (Traveller)
>            Adv. 5 - Trillion Credit Squadron (319) [$13.5, VF]
>            Adv. 6 - Expedition to Zhodane (325) [$13.5, VF]
>            Adv. 9 - Nomads of the World-Ocean (333) [$12, F]
>            Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face (313)
[$10.5, F]
>        (Twilight:2000)
>            Rendezvous in Krakow (2018) [$7.5, VF]
...
        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
       
       

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 12:00:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial Revenue Service

Bolie Williams IV wrote:
> 
> Several thoughts on taxes in the Imperium:
> 
> First off, I have no idea what's been said in cannon since all I ever
> played was the original LBB traveller and I don't have much of a head
> for trivia.  Given that, here's some ideas...  feel free to ignore
> them:

> 2.  The next easiest would be some kind of VAT or sales tax.  Assuming
> the Imperium is basically capitalist, taxing consumption is better for
> the economy (it encourages people to save money, making more money
> available for capital investment) it is also easier to collect since
> it doesn't require anyone to report any income and doesn't try to
> keep track of every penny everyone in the Imperium earns, it just
> collects a percentage of each purchase.

A couple of problems with this. 1) Taxing consumption is not necessarily
better for the economy...look today at Japan...they're trying to
_increase_ consumption. Not much point in making any capital
improvements with all those saved up credits if the things you produce
aren't being bought.

2)It does require an enormous amount of bookeeping...it just transfers
it from the consumer to the vendor.

I suspect that the Emperor says 'Hey, Archduke so'n'so, your tax bite is
x gazillion credits this fiscal year.' Archduke goes to his staff who
tell the dukes under him, 'Your tax bite is z share of x-gazillion
credits...' and so on down the feudal chain to the tail end charlies,
those knights and barons, etc, telling their people that their income
taxes or sales taxes, or poll taxes, or however they decide to implement
it. That way all decisions of concrete implementation are handled at the
local level, where it's supposed to be, according to how the Imperium is
set up.

This is the entire point of a feudal system of governing...the _only_
place that any concrete implementation, rather than articulation of
policy is handled.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:13:51 +0200
From: uzsb99 <Aldrien@gmx.de>
Subject: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Hi everyone,

first of all: I4m not native Englisch-Speaking, so please forgive me my
wrong-spelling!

I think the only way to raise taxes in a modern, capitalistic world of
such dimensions is to introdiuce something called "Mehrwertsteuer" in
German. It works that way: A merchant wants to sell Bananas for 100 Cr.
The "Mehrwertsteuer" is 10%. (In Germany it is actually 15 %). So the
Merchant will ask for 110 Cr. and gives the 10 Cr. to the Goverment. The
same goes for services, like window-cleanig or whatever you like. This
system has some good effects, since not all of the people are
self-employed. This means, you do not need to tax everyone, which keeps
paperwork acceptible. The probibly best thing you get with this system,
is that you4re able to tax all these peole who are not registerd
somewere or who travelle too much through the galaxy to be taxed by one
goverment. This means most player characters!!! You will be able to tax
people whenever they buy anything!!
This system is not perfect, of couse, since a black-market would still
avoid this type of tax, but whenever one black-market-customer buys
anything else, e.g. bread, cloth, a car... you get to tax him.

Ok, thats what I thing that would work, please mail me any comments!!!

CU
Aldrien

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In space no one can hear you scream."

Visit my Homepage!
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/9493/

My ICQ-Number : 11930156

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 14:40:10 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

As it happens, there will be a new Marches book quite soon. Most of the
data is extrapolated from Supplement 3 or the Regency book. Setting is 1120
non-rebellion, which will cause some folks to howl... but who cares. 

'Course, it's a GURPS book (more howls) but those with any sense will
understand that the Marches are the Marches, and I'm pretty sure this will
be a good giude to them - definitive for the 1120 period, and also usefu
for earlier....

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:06:27 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Revenue Service

At 12:00 PM 18/05/98 -0700, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Bolie Williams IV wrote:
>
>> 2.  The next easiest would be some kind of VAT or sales tax.  Assuming
>> the Imperium is basically capitalist, taxing consumption is better for
>> the economy (it encourages people to save money, making more money
>> available for capital investment) it is also easier to collect since
>> it doesn't require anyone to report any income and doesn't try to
>> keep track of every penny everyone in the Imperium earns, it just
>> collects a percentage of each purchase.
>
>A couple of problems with this. 1) Taxing consumption is not necessarily
>better for the economy...look today at Japan...they're trying to
>_increase_ consumption. Not much point in making any capital
>improvements with all those saved up credits if the things you produce
>aren't being bought.
>
>2)It does require an enormous amount of bookeeping...it just transfers
>it from the consumer to the vendor.

Both of these are so true. Also sales taxes and their equivilent tend to
assist the rich in getting richer and the poor in getting poorer. Unless
all the capital investment that is promoted expends the economy enormously
a sales tax will only help those with money to invest, and that threshold
will be higher because a sales tax drives up the cost of basic expenses.

>I suspect that the Emperor says 'Hey, Archduke so'n'so, your tax bite is
>x gazillion credits this fiscal year.' Archduke goes to his staff who
>tell the dukes under him, 'Your tax bite is z share of x-gazillion
>credits...' and so on down the feudal chain to the tail end charlies,
>those knights and barons, etc, telling their people that their income
>taxes or sales taxes, or poll taxes, or however they decide to implement
>it. That way all decisions of concrete implementation are handled at the
>local level, where it's supposed to be, according to how the Imperium is
>set up.
>
>This is the entire point of a feudal system of governing...the _only_
>place that any concrete implementation, rather than articulation of
>policy is handled.

If history is anything to go by this will produce all sorts of exciting
conflicts and corruptions. Tax farming is a very effective way of getting
your money without paying the overheads yourself, but it tends to be hard
on those who pay the taxes. It would also make being a Imperial Census
Auditor a very exciting job.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 13:47:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

uzsb99 wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> first of all: I4m not native Englisch-Speaking, so please forgive me my
> wrong-spelling!
> 
> I think the only way to raise taxes in a modern, capitalistic world of
> such dimensions is to introdiuce something called "Mehrwertsteuer" in
> German. It works that way: A merchant wants to sell Bananas for 100 Cr.
> The "Mehrwertsteuer" is 10%. (In Germany it is actually 15 %). So the
> Merchant will ask for 110 Cr. and gives the 10 Cr. to the Goverment.

This is the same as the sales or VAT system mentioned in other posts. In
America a national sales tax has been advocated by people as diverse as
Frank Zappa to Dick Armey. As an entirely consumption-based tax it is
attractive in many ways, but the paperwork demands on small businesses
in particular can be extensive. 

Also, applied across the board, as a VAT, this leads to extremely high
taxes being levied on goods, since taxes accrue at every step along the
manufacturing and distribution process. A straight sales tax at the
retail level avoids this problem but includes a large number of others.
For instance, were we to do that in this country, I'd immediately found
a business, and pay for my business license, etc. Presto, I can buy at
wholesale and avoid the taxes.

Also, these schemes typically exempt a lot of services and goods;
combined with the various 'My business owns my house and buys my food'
loopholes, ends with the net result that the wealthy pay a far lower
percentage of their earnings in taxes than do the poor. 

That tends to piss off the masses.

I've yet to see a 'national sales tax' scheme proposed (at least here in
the US) that did a whole lot to eliminate, for instance, the problems we
have here in the US with taxes. (unequal tax burdens, a code riddled
with loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight, evenly applied
sales tax on _everything_ no exceptions, would work, but hell, so would
a straight, evenly applied income tax. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #495
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Traveller-digest        Monday, May 18 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 496



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sector analysis
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Escort tonnage
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Expaded Life Support Costs
Re: Imperial Revenue Service
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Imperial Revenue Service
Marc Miller's T4 News Group

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:21:01 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Sector analysis

IIRC a while back someone did a sector by sector analysis the 3I,s of
population and Tech levels. Could someone plase point me to it's location.

Thanks,

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:16:06 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

>As it happens, there will be a new Marches book quite soon. Most of the
>data is extrapolated from Supplement 3 or the Regency book. Setting is 1120
>non-rebellion, which will cause some folks to howl... but who cares.
>
>'Course, it's a GURPS book (more howls) but those with any sense will


The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready for
GURPS Traveller :)

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:46:09 +0100
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage

Peter H. Brenton writes:
>The question is, how many ships will feel safe escorted by one 400 ton CE?
>Jo feels this question can be answered by a ratio of 10:1; up to 4000 tons
>of vessel can be escorted by 400 tons of escort.
Actually, all I said was the last time we walked this thread the general
list consensus was 1:10. I just noted that it was interesting that the
calculations I ran of the total number of ships in the Imperium also
produced this figure.

>A group of traders makes X in net profit per fortnight from a cargo run
>(without escort).  The escort has expenses Y each fortnight.  X must be
>enough larger than Y that subtracting Y will leave a satisfactory profit
>(or not too high a loss).  Quesiton is what is a satisfactory profit/loss?
I'm not sure this is the correct approach. An approach more in fitting with
how the real world works would be along the lines of risk assessment. The
important thing then is not how profitable the route is, but rather how
likely the ship is to be attacked. Which is pretty much how you have
structured your mechanics, although you don't call it that :-)

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:55:17 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

>Hi everyone,
>
>first of all: I4m not native Englisch-Speaking, so please forgive me my
>wrong-spelling!
>
>I think the only way to raise taxes in a modern, capitalistic world of
>such dimensions is to introdiuce something called "Mehrwertsteuer" in
>German. It works that way: A merchant wants to sell Bananas for 100 Cr.
>The "Mehrwertsteuer" is 10%. (In Germany it is actually 15 %). So the
>Merchant will ask for 110 Cr. and gives the 10 Cr. to the Goverment. The
>same goes for services, like window-cleanig or whatever you like. This
>system has some good effects, since not all of the people are
>self-employed. This means, you do not need to tax everyone, which keeps
>paperwork acceptible. The probibly best thing you get with this system,
>is that you4re able to tax all these peole who are not registerd
>somewere or who travelle too much through the galaxy to be taxed by one
>goverment. This means most player characters!!! You will be able to tax
>people whenever they buy anything!!
>This system is not perfect, of couse, since a black-market would still
>avoid this type of tax, but whenever one black-market-customer buys
>anything else, e.g. bread, cloth, a car... you get to tax him.
>
>Ok, thats what I thing that would work, please mail me any comments!!!

There are several problems with what I would call "Sales Tax", one is
double-dipping, that is, taxing a single product twice or three times in
it's lifetime, something currently avoided (in Massachusetts) by making
wholesale transactions tax exempt and charging tax only on finished
products sold retail.

Another problem is that the Imperium, canonically, has no real jurisdiction
at the planetary level.  I would say that the Imperium has no desire to
build a bureaucracy on each and every planet in the Imperium to implement
and enforce it's sales tax laws.

No, I agree with another poster.  The planetary governement(s) is told that
it must pay a certain amount to the Imperial government for taxes and that
it is up to the individual government how that money is raised.  The actual
amount should be formula driven based on population and either GWP, per
capita income, and/or the amount of interstellar trade.  By making it a
formula the Imperial Government is seen to trerat everyone fairly (and that
will get the tax through the moot).  In spite of this the Imperials may
exempt a world for a year or five in the case of economic disaster or
somesuch.

Hey! maybe the Imperium can do what New Hampshire does and raise all its
taxes by selling all the liquor in the state and running the state lottery!

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:42:57 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Expaded Life Support Costs

One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution in
its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.  The tanks are
relatively small, though small ships may have a limited selection available.
These are available at GURPS TL9, which makes it about 10-11 in Traveller
terms.   By TL15 (Traveller) these things are probably no bigger than a barrel
(maybe liter sized) and keep a small crew fed at least 3 times a day.    Even
at TL10-11, i wouldn't expect them to be much bigger than a low berth.
GenAssist would've been done w/ these before the Interstellar Wars were over
if the Vilani didn't have it done (which would have been devastating for the
Shugilli, as we know happened until they (Naasirka) settled on energy,
transport, and luxury goods...).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:42:56 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Revenue Service

> I suspect that the Emperor says 'Hey, Archduke so'n'so, your tax bite is
> x gazillion credits this fiscal year.' Archduke goes to his staff who
> tell the dukes under him, 'Your tax bite is z share of x-gazillion
> credits...' and so on down the feudal chain to the tail end charlies,
> those knights and barons, etc, telling their people that their income
> taxes or sales taxes, or poll taxes, or however they decide to implement
> it. That way all decisions of concrete implementation are handled at the
> local level, where it's supposed to be, according to how the Imperium is
 > set up.

Sounds good to me.   Of course, the nobles can always gather more taxes than
is due (and probably do), keeping the surplus.  

The Archdukes were out of the loop from the First Civil War until Strephon
reinstated their power (source: MT Imperial Encyclopedia).  Thus it probably
went: Emperor-Sector Dukes-Subsector Dukes-so on all the way to the Barons.
Knights aren't part of the peerage... It's just an honorific, isn't it?

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:21:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

> >As it happens, there will be a new Marches book quite soon. Most of the
> >data is extrapolated from Supplement 3 or the Regency book. Setting is 1120
> >non-rebellion, which will cause some folks to howl... but who cares.
> >
> >'Course, it's a GURPS book (more howls) but those with any sense will
> 
> 
> The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready for
> GURPS Traveller :)

<sounds of gunshots in the background>

Next?

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 00:14 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

Moin Peter H. Brenton,

> Well, Imagine if you will an area in which it is fairly likely that an
> unescorted vessel will be attacked.  Perhaps there is a high incidence of
> Vargr Raiding going on, or maybe there is a tradewar, or a real war, and
> merchants who wish to trade in the area are willing to give up a percentage
> of their profits to pay for more firepower on a temporary basis.  It makes
> perfect sense; a 400 ton Close Escort to shepherd a few fat traders, they
> jump together, arriving within a few hours of one another at the
> destination. 

	I can agree with the complete scenario. The Gazelle Close Escord 
	was not designed to escord 10 fat traders, but to act as screening
	and as a tanker for Chrysanthemum destroyers.

> The merchants get a big defense boost without making a capital investment
> in weapons,

	If there is trouble in an area, traders will convoy each other.
	10 fat traders (one missile turret, one laser) have far more
	firepower, than a single Gazelle Close Escord. And even Vargr
	have to come with Foghawks (10kdt cruiser) to be a treat.

> the CE gets a job.

	Gazelle crew's dont need job's. They are belonging to imperial
	navy. If the trouble is to big, it's even vice versa. The
	Gazelle will ask Joe Average Trader to help in this screening
	job (its easy, just catch the missiles) as many traders are
	subsidary!

> Generally raiders will
> simply avoid escorted convoys in favor of unescorted targets anyway.

	For this reason traders are armed. If there is trouble they
	will jump in convoy. I single trade may be a simple prey, but
	a dozend of fat traders are a fleet in their own right.
- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 00:28 
From: kraehe@bakunin.hb.north.de (Michael Koehne)
Subject: Re: Imperial Revenue Service

Moin Bruce Johnson,

> I suspect that the Emperor says 'Hey, Archduke so'n'so, your tax bite is
> x gazillion credits this fiscal year.' Archduke goes to his staff who
> tell the dukes under him, 'Your tax bite is z share of x-gazillion
> credits...' and so on down the feudal chain to the tail end charlies,
> those knights and barons, etc, telling their people that their income
> taxes or sales taxes, or poll taxes, or however they decide to implement
> it. That way all decisions of concrete implementation are handled at the
> local level, where it's supposed to be, according to how the Imperium is
> set up.

	the best thing a planet can therefore have is the feudal
	technocracy with a wise lord to whom the planet belongs. He can
	deceide to invest in industry and to pay parts of the tax from
	his own money. He therefore would would offer a moderate tax
	and allows the planet to grow rich, and not to become slave
	of the Laffer curve. The wealthier lords can even pay their
	tax from the revenue of imperial stock they hold.

- -- 
 mailto:kraehe@bakunin.north.de		http://human.is-bremen.de/~kraehe
		" CETERUM CENSEO MSDOS ESSE DELENDAM "

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:32:13 -0700
From: amarin@walldata.com
Subject: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

Wouldn't it be cool if Imperium Games Inc. published a news group?
Games.rec.traveller.t4
It would certainly be easier than the old clunky mailing list or web based
forum available now. 
I mean no disrespect, for what they are (tho outmoded technologies), they
work the way it's supposed to...
Be that as it may, it would be nice if the makers of Traveller would upgrade
to a more modern forum.
Email lists and web bases forums (that just append mail to a web page or
list) cannot compete with the responsiveness and convenience of a true news
group.

My second point is one I direct to Marc Miller's Marketing department. 

Now I can only speak for Western Washington State area, but there are
precious few locations that carry Traveller T4 products at this time.
Compared to the number of RPG's available in general, found at the multitude
of W. Wash hobby shops, T4 is virtually nonexistent. I'm a RPG'er from way
back (so I remember the small Traveller books/moduals) but have problem
finding other T4 players (any Traveller players actually, any age), I fear
we are a dying breed, smothered by better marketed games. I wondered if this
was a trend in other locations. If so, I feel it's a marketing blunder. Why
can't I find Traveller products in more locations. Currently, I can only
find the game for sale in two stores in the W. Wash area: "Wizards of the
Coast" and "Wonder World". This game's been out two years, according to the
inside cover, why isn't it more proliferated? This is a source of concern
for all of us, because if the game doesn't take off, it will (in time)
disappear or become to domain of a few die-hards. Science Fiction is really
big right now, this game should fly!

What do you think we could do to get Marc and Co. to upgrade to a
unmonitored news group?
What do you think we could do to get IGI to market more aggressively?
I would like to hear your comments, opinions, etc. If you too believe this
is a good idea, perhaps we can all write Imperium Games Co. and tell them
so.

Here's the email address: 
suggestions@imperiumgames.com <mailto:suggestions@imperiumgames.com> 


- ----------
From:  owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com]
Sent:  Saturday, May 16, 1998 8:57 AM
To:  traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
Subject:  Traveller-digest V1998 #492


Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 492



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Wind Speeds
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Expanded life support costs
Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?
Illo References
Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
Core Subsector names
Re: requesting feedback...
Re: Core Subsector names
Core subsector names
Re: jumping from atmosphere,
Authorized copies?
Re: Offer to the TML
Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: MT Character Generator
Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:52:02 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Wind Speeds

>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:56:34 -0500
>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>Subject: Wind Speeds
>
>The jet stream averages 35 mph in the summer and 75 mph in the winter.
>Speeds as high as 200 mph have been recorded, but that is unusual.
>
>Thunderstorms don't typically move very fast, usually something like
>50-100 miles per day.  Austin, Texas is about 170 miles from Houston,
>Texas.  I've lived in both places.  Weather takes a day or two to
>get from one to the other.  Winds in thunderstorms don't normally
>exceed 30-50 mph at the *most*.  Above that and you have a tropical
>storm, a storm of unusually high winds.  Winds of 75 mph and higher
>are only found in hurricanes.
>
>Now obviously turbulence can be more violent, but in my personal
>experience from flying and the fact that planes generally don't
>get turned upside down, such violent, random winds are relatively
>rare.
>
>This is the only atmosphere of any thickness that we know much
>about.
>

Local geography can have a tremendous effect on these values.  I am also a
pilot, and I have been stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs for a
total of four years now.  I have personally witnessed winds in clear air at
ground level in excess of seventy knots (tents blown away, antennae and
trees knocked down, etc.) on one occassion, and one or two incidents of
winds in excess of 50 knots every year - not including thunderstorms.  One
of the very few airline accidents in the past 25 years still listed by the
NTSB as "unsolved" occured at Colorado Springs airport: a 727 on short
final simply rolled completely over and crashed.  The black box was an
older type, and could only confirm the facts without giving an clue as to
why.  Best guess is a "horizontal rotor vortex" (I think that's the term) -
a volume of clear air turbulence that rolls like a giant log off the
mountains - that literally flipped the plane over when it was too low for
the pilot to recover.

I have also witnessed winds in excess of 110 knots on the ground on several
occassions in 1991 in Germany - the trees looked like they had been combed
flat, all in the same direction.  Fortunately, this followed a similar
incident at Fort Hood, Texas, that destroyed almost a billion dollars in
Apaches and Chinooks, so that we were in the habit of hangaring our
aircraft every weekend, or when the weather forcast called for any high
winds.

Wind speeds on Mars, by the bye, can typically exceed 300 knots at ground
level, but are so thin that the fines barely move.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:15:06 -0700
From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. 

> > There are at least three games going on IRC that I'm aware of and I 
> > know someone who is planning to start a fourth in a few months.
> 
> Details, details!!!!!!!!!!

Ok! OK! :)

Stuart Dollar runs a game on Sunday nights, 8pm Central on Undernet. 
We usually use Springfield, but the server must have suffered a 
serious crash and has been down for some time. We have been using an 
alternate server that is not connected to IRC at large. Email me for 
details if you'd like to lurk.  My husband might be looking for 
another player or two that are serious about playing regularly.

JD Burdick runs a game on Monday nigts at 7:30pm Central on the 
aforementioned alternate server.  This game has run for over a year 
and has only missed three or four sessions. At present there are no 
openings in this game.

Commander X runs a game, I believe on Tuesday nights and again on the 
alternate server (anyone spot a trend here? :> ).  I don't have many 
details on this one, but the game is centered around the mysterious 
Planet X and reports have it that it is more tech/gear-head oriented 
than the other two.

I have no details at present regarding the forth-coming game other 
than I will be running a quasi-NPC behind the scenes for it.  Feel 
free to email me your interest and I'll try to put you in touch with 
the GM.

Again, feel free to email me on any of the above or for more 
information about gaming on IRC.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:54:12 GMT
From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:


>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>have orbits that cross the Earth's.

This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
asteroids that can interact with Earth...

John Lansford
"I'm damaged, and I like it. It made me what I am."
Donald Roeser, "Damaged"

http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:06:52
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

 Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk> wrote 
>
>I have roughed out a generic "investment" system designed to allow
>investment in worlds and trade routes and to work in Resource Units (a
>PE concept). I have worked on a 10 percent base return because tax has
>to be taken into account and the rates of return so far quoted as
>acceptable (4-5%) have been after tax if we take the real world as a
>model. I have also considered treating each corporation as a corporate
>government with a 20% "tax" level (itself taxed, as this is not the
>world government) on all employees and required investment of twice the
>combined income of all employees.
>

If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on your
average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.

Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares). 

I'd be interested in how you quantify interstellar trade - my GUTTT system
basically works from bottom up, and says for every Cr1000/dton you can make
on a run on average, 1% of the smaller planets economy will be dedicated to
that trade. Then I toss in higher-value cargoes than 'vanilla' Traveller
supports (which leads to *very* long trade routes), which have relatively
smaller GDP impact (but trade with 20 planets of 0.2 percent of GDP impact
each turns into a big chunk of GDP).

The idea of rating Corporate interests on a planet as a planet for PE
purposes is interesting - to extend the idea, you could also have culture
etc ratings for each company.

>In general I think the best approach will be to work on simply paying
>for a ship outright and running it for profit.  If this works out to
>give a decent return all the other financial stuff will work itself out
>one way or another - but the activity (in this case interstellar trade)
>must be basically worthwhile to occur. The internal rate of return for
>the ships in the T4 "Starships" book vary widely:
>
>Free Trader           9%     (26%)
>Far Trader           -2%(!)  ( 3%)
>Secure Trader        -2%(!)  ( 4%)
>Subsidised Merchant  13%     (43%)
>Subsidised Liner      0%     ( 5%)
>Large Armed Freighter 6%     (27%)
>Luxury Liner          4%     ( 4%)
>
>Figures for freight rates of 1000 Cr/te (4000 Cr/te).  A figure of ~15%
>IRR would be required to be attractive.  As you can see a "Secure
>Trader" is far from secure and a "Far Trader" will not get very far!  At
>4000 Cr/te, however, it is hard to see why a Subsidised Merchant needs
>to be subsidised...  It seems to me that this is strong evidence for
>differential freight rates depending on safety and length of route.

Yes. The theory with a Far Trader was always it would go broke shipping
freight but it could make more profit than a jump-1 ship could shipping
speculative cargo (imagine two worlds 4 parsecs apart where you have a
expected specualtive profit of Cr 3000 per dton. A jump-1 ship gets a
revenue of Cr750/jump, a jump 2 ship Cr 1500/jump).

Frankly, I find fixed freight rates silly. Do you have a copy of Hans'
Freight and Passenger table ?

Actually, a freight system that took into account the merchant's skills
would be nice.

>Alternatively perhaps the designs in Starships! are so non-optimal as to
>make these rates meaningless??  

Yes. Starships, as a product, is one of the reasons IG went broke. Their
quality control was just too inconsistent.

>I have assumed (a) 100% full holds and
>cabins and (b) refined fuel because if (a) were not so the ships would
>go to another route unless they *were* subsidised and (b) makes little
>difference, especially if refining takes any extra time. Also assumes 25
>trips per year (perhaps a little low with refined fuel).

This about cancels out with 90% of capacity and 30 trips a year, which you
can easily do if you have agents on planets with warehouses to store cargo
until shipment.

Ian Whitchurch

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:07:27 -0500
From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

At 7:54 PM -0500 5/15/98, John Lansford wrote:
>On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>>have orbits that cross the Earth's.
>
>This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
>asteroids that can interact with Earth...

How do they know how many they haven't found?

This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
go undetected.

I'm thinking:  how do they know how many go undetected if they
haven't detected them?

Bolie IV

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bolie Williams IV
bolie@io.com
http://www.io.com/~bolie/

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:53:26 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Expanded life support costs

"Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com> wrote:
> Note that T4 uses a transportation charges of Cr4000 per ton. So in T4
> low berths lose Cr2100 per DT over shipping an equal amount of cargo,
> mid-passage loses Cr1000 per DT, and high passage breaks even. Don't
> even consider large staterooms and rip those low berths out now!

Although the text says "4000" per  ton, the ship revenues 
table on page 113 says 1000 per ton. I'm not sure which one 
is the typpo, but I'm guessing the text.

Speaking of T4 typo's are the ship prices in there for 
real? 21 Mcr for a scout/courier? 

Steve
- - --
Ulf fra Siaelland          wulf@sea.southern.co.nz
Quarterly Gules and Argent
Southron Gaard, Caid

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:39:06 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?

Here it is, courtesy of Trav. Digest #10, pg.#24:

Apge        Perite      Ameros  Shinkan
Sanches   Mekee     Core      Kaskii
Bunkeria   Cemplas  Chant    Dingtra
Cadion     Ch'naar   Dunea   Saregon

Hope that helps,

Seth

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:06:50 EDT
From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
Subject: Illo References

OK floks, I need some assistance here.

1) I need illo references to give to various artists so they can get the
look
of Gurps Traveller right.

2) he vast majority of my Traveller material is in a storage locker in
Illinois (don't ask...it is too painful)

3) I need everything that exists on the following subjects:

     Strephon
     All castes of Droyne. 
     The Vegans
      That d*mned dandelion/flower/plant thing/race alien that no one can
pronounce and that starts with an "L"

Email to lkw@io.com
Fax to (512) 447-1144

Thanks,

Loren Wiseman

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:06:36 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Subject: Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire

On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:08 +0000, Pearson Publishing wrote:

> I am curious to know, for those of you using T4 rules, how you handle 
> burst fire, as opposed to auto fire.  For example, the ACR has an 
> option to fire 3 round bursts.  However, now difference is listed for 
> damage, or the possiblity to hit other targets.  Thanks for the 
> input.

You will have to check two other sources to find this out.  Emperor's
Arsenal details a few new combat rules, including autofire.
Guns!Guns!Guns! by BTRC, however, has a Traveller conversion section that
is far more complete.

In essence, use the following chart:

Rnds/Sec    Rnds/turn     Damage     ROF DM   Weapon Type
   4-          <30         1.5x        -1
  5-10        30-60         2x         +0
 11-20        61-120       2.5x        +1
 21-50       121-300        3x         +2        RF
  51+          >300         4x         +4        VRF

Autofire is based on a /sustainable/ ROF.  If a weapon runs out of ammo
during a six-second combat turn, it is not reloaded to get a higher ROF
(eg: a machine pistol that empties its 32 round magazine in 2 seconds still
fires at an *average* ROF of 5.33 rounds per second *during a six-second
combat turn*, for a +0 autofire DM).



James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
 "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)

         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
          would kick MacGyver's ass.

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:30:56 EDT
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Core Subsector names

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> asks:

>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  Does
>anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what they are?

From Traveller's Digest #8:

A: Apge
B: Perite
C: Ameros
D: Shinkan
E: Sanches
F: Mekee
G: Core
H: Kaskii
I: Bunkeria
J: Cemplas
K: Chant
L: Dingtra
M: Cadion
N: Ch'naar
O: Dunea
P: Saregon

With library data spread out in TD# 8 thru 10...

GypsyComet

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:55:36 -0700
From: dberry@hooked.net
Subject: Re: requesting feedback...

At 01:32 PM 5/15/98 PDT, you wrote:
>Hello folks,
>
>	I still need to purchase the following T4 products:
>
>		Imperial Squadrons

Companion piece to PE.  War rules based heavily on Fifth Frontier War,
rules on playing Naval characters.  Problems:  My ship designs got
butchered down to puppy chow, no maps, some problems with the sample
scenarios. 7 out of 10.

>		The Annililik Run

Awful.  AD&D in space.  Attack of the Mutant Space Mold.  0 out of 10.

>		Naval Architect's Manual

Nice deckplans, but some of the text is non-canonical or just odd.. like
putting ship gunners in clear blisters for visual (!) aiming.  This isn't a
book of complete ship plans, but elements.  Good for mining ideas. 6 out of
10.

>		Emperor's Vehicles

Not worth it.  The vehicles are so thinly described and poorly done it's a
joke.  They don't even have the tech level listed!  Not even worth getting
for the completeness factor.

How bad are The Annililik Run and Emperor's Vehicles?  If you must have
them, send me your address and I 'll *give* you mine.  This from the guy
who grins at Traveller auctions because I already own most everything.


- - --

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:09:32 -0700
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Core Subsector names

GypsyComet, Seth Kimmel,

Thank you, and much obliged.

Scott


- - -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:04:57 +0200
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Core subsector names

Fri, 15 May 1998 15:13:50 -0700 Scott Ellsworth
<Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote:

>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names by
>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  >Does
anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what >they are?

A: Apge
B: Perite
C: Ameros
D: Shinkan
E: Sanches
F: Mekee
G: Core
H: Kaskii
I: Bunkeria
J: Cemplas
K: Chant
L: Dingtra
M: Cadion
N: Ch'naar
O: Dunea
P: Saregon

Source: TD 10

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:29:09 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: jumping from atmosphere,

Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote

> All the GM's with players who have tried jumping from atmosphere,
> raise your hands... :)

I have had a charecter on a ship that other [foolish] charecters took
into jump space from the inside of a pressurized bay on the planets
highport within .1 diameter of the planet.  They did this while
attempting to chase down another scout ship which was doing the same
thing.  But wait, it gets worse.

They put this ship into jump space inside the high port

_while_there_were_people_on_the_hull_of_the_ship_.

Fortunately for them the GM was using MT rules which, as written,
provide a drastic penalty for jumping within 10 diameters but do not
impose any further penalty for jumping from within 1 diameter, or within
0.1 diameter, or while in atmosphere.  They also state [SOM] that the
jump bubble forms 1 to 2 meters from the hull.  All the players on the
hull made their Dex rolls not to be cut in half by the jump field and
then came abord the ship as if nothing had happened.  My charecter was
the ships Engineer at the time (with good skill in Engineering, some
skill in Physics, and a high Education).  I could _not_ persuade the
other charecters, or the other players, how mind numbingly dumb they
were.  We came out of jump just fine, 14 days and 29 parsecs later,
IIRC.  This only encouraged the players to try further reckless
misjumps.

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:46:28 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Authorized copies?

Yes please. Any and everything I don't have.

MJD.

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:04:37 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Offer to the TML

Smart, David J (David) wrote:

> I'd be happy to make copies of any material *which won't violate
> copyrights*. In other words, I won't copy items which are currently in
> print or are available online, either at an online store or currently up
> for auction. I *will* point you to the store or auction, though. Once the
> auction is over, though, we can talk.

Just FYI, that would still violate copyright laws, or to be more
precise,that a copyrighted work is not in print or available online or
otherwise,
does not give anyone the right to reproduce or otherwise the copyright
of the owner of such a work.  These factors are also not reflected in
the Fair Use doctrine.  So, you would have no defense.

Having said that, your generosity is welcomed.

Bloo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics

Ian or Katts wrote:

> If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on
your
> average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.

With ya on that.

> Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
> Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
> they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
> megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you
have
> to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares).

I think you must be right.  (Good idea with the non-voting shares.  This
seemsreasonable since you the block of votes could be a very low percentage
but you make it up on volume of corporations.  Then, literally,
'What's Good for Zhunastu Industries, Is Good for the Imperium.'

It seems to me that the Imperium could probably work on a basis similar to
the United Nations, in terms of funding.  All member states pay a percentage
of their Gross National Product (might actually be Domestic, I'm not sure).
The percentage is the same for all members.  Since the Imperium works on
a similar principle, i.e., not directly governing member states but the
spaces
between the stars.


Bloo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:29:18 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.

Thanks

Bloo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:50:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
Subject: Re: MT Character Generator

Svenson, Gregory (FL51) wrote:

> I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
> that were not available in MT (law school, attorney,

This stuff was in MT?  Dang!  I should have looked at this stuff.
I never have seen _any_ MT stuff.

If someone would graciously post or send me the stuff on law school
and the attroney career, I would be very grateful.
I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.

Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
love it.

Bloo

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:39 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?

AHL was the largest ship designed with deck plans during the course of
Traveller. I don't remember exact numbers, something like 100,000 td ?
Published as a game with full color deck plans, scenarios, adn the near
mythical Suppliment 5 (unavailable without purchase of the game) whic
included stats and "tumbnail" views of the various decks of the AHL, along
with discriptive material.

Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
don't remember if it covered air combat or not.

Hope this helps a bit
Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 10:43 AM
Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?


>Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
>and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.
>
>Thanks
>
>Bloo
>
>

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:59:16 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>

Follow-up to my previously posted message (See below) to answer questions
that were asked by most everyone that responded.

FIRST - The Software

1.  CU-SeeMe software allows people with a camera "broadcast" live images
over the net and be displayed by ANYONE on the reflector.  People who are on
just watching are caller "Lurkers" but any and all can type (chat) live and
everyone will see that.  You can also use a sound card and attach a
microphone and speakers/headset to do live voice.  This eats up a tremendous
amount of bandwidth and slows things down pretty bad.  The key is everyone
can see what I broadcast with my video and every can chat at the same time.
2. ICQ is a little program that lets you know when another person that also
uses ICQ gets on the I-net and you can send notes to them individually.  I
want to use this as a supplement to CU-SeeMe and possibly (if we have no
choice) a back-up means of communication.
3. Both pieces of software are free.
4. I have a very high speed line (cable modem) so I won't see much lag from
the players.  It's possible that the players will see some lag from me
because I'm sending a great deal of bandwidth but generally if there is NO
change in the video that frees up the bandwidth and things will go pretty
normal.

SECOND - The Game
1. My intent right now is to use TNE (maybe T4) character generation in a
pre-rebellion CT/MT setting (just after the 5th FW).  The exact area is
still being decided but it will wind up in Zho space (passing thru the
Marches).  This keeps the TL up to 14/15 (which I like) and there is plenty
of published material available for any and all who still have it (I can
provide some).
2. I will put up a list of character professions/abilities that I need for
this assignment and the players will roll their own, bring one from another
campaign, I'll roll it for you, well you get the idea.  Final players will
get my seal of approval (just to keep some game balance) and we will head
out.
3. This is a subsidized adventure and a ship with NPC will be provided by
the sponsor.
4. Standard weapons and some combat materials will be provided also.
5. Initial setup will be done thru E-mail and I will keep records on my end
for the player characters.
6. Most other functions and the bulk of the record keeping will be
accomplished by the players.

The response was much larger than I first anticipated and if their are other
GM's who would be interested in running a game using this format please
contact me and I will help get you started.  There are a number of benefits
by doing it long distance:
1. Propping your feet up while you sip your suds and you don't have to drive
home afterwards.
2. Don't have to get the dining room table cleaned off to run the game.
3. No SPECIAL house cleaning for your guests (my wife likes this one, she
bought me the video camera when I explained how it would work <BG>).
4. You can keep secrets easier and not get that "I'll do what Joe's doing"
from a player that thinks he/she might have missed a hook that someone else
caught. (I especially hate this one)  This makes for better balance in my
way of thinking and it makes the players declare things much better.
5. You can have subplots running with players without getting someone else's
nose in it.
6. NPC's are easier to use in ALL ways.

I'm sorry for intruding on the TML again but I put this back up because of
the type and quantity of the responses.  The Traveller world needs to get a
larger following.  I hope no one gets too upset.  I believe that this will
be my last post on the subject.

As always, please respond directly to me in private E-mail
thomharr@mediaone.net and I will do my best to reply to everyone.  To those
who have already replied, I hope this answers the initial questions you had
and will help you make up your minds whether to play or not.

Thom

- - -----Original Message-----
From: Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: CU-Seeme "Live" game.


>I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme"
and
>"ICQ" software.  If you are familiar with these two pieces of software and
>are interested in playing Traveller from home please contact me at
>thomharr@mediaone.net and NOT on the TML.  Just so you know, you don't need
>a camera to see what I'm broadcasting.  If things go as planned I will
start
>it up the middle to end of June.  This is due to some overwhelming family
>matters that won't be resolved before then.   As far as I know we will be
>the very first gaming group to ever do RPG this way.  [About time we put
>this TL-7/8 technology to work. ;-)]
>
>Thanks to the TML for allowing this intrusion.
>
>Thom Harris
>Greater Metro Boston, MA - USA
>

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #492
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, May 18 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 497



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...
Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: The Spinward Marches
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Traveller News Group?
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 16:55:14 -0700
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

>        If there is trouble in an area, traders will convoy each other.
>        10 fat traders (one missile turret, one laser) have far more
>        firepower, than a single Gazelle Close Escord.

This isn't particularly true under most combat systems. Under High Guard
a military ship with a good comptuer and high evasion will never be hit by 
a civilian ship with a model/1 . . . and under Brilliant Lances and its
successors, civilian ships lack the sensors to attack military targets at
combat ranges - and also lack the MFDs to score hits at long range. An
attacker could sit outside an unescorted convoy's effective weapons range
and slice it to pieces. 

(Not to say that the Gazelle is a great escort either - a better niche 
ship would have lower jump performance but high maneuver, decent armour, 
and an all-laser weapons suite.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 19:01:20 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@wavefront.com>
Subject: Re: Horror and otherrelated topics...

> I started to create a magic plug-in for the MT and TNE Task Systems
> a while back, but lost my gaming group. 

Actually I had good luck using a supplement for Dark Conspiracy (don't 
remember the name..) to handle magic using the TNE rules.  As I recall
it was pretty seamless, and we got about six good evenings out of it.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 20:21:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: Fleshpots and Marketing...

Gary writes:

> From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
> Subject: Re: Expaded Life Support Costs
> 
> One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
> aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution in
> its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.

Hmmm...do the Vilani clone human tissue for this?


Someone else writes:
> Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 17:32:13 -0700
> From: amarin@walldata.com
> Subject: Marc Miller's T4 News Group
> 
> Wouldn't it be cool if Imperium Games Inc. published a news group?
> Games.rec.traveller.t4
> It would certainly be easier than the old clunky mailing list or web based
> forum available now. 

> My second point is one I direct to Marc Miller's Marketing department. 
> 
> Now I can only speak for Western Washington State area, but there are
> precious few locations that carry Traveller T4 products at this time.
...
> Science Fiction is really
> big right now, this game should fly!
> 
> What do you think we could do to get Marc and Co. to upgrade to a
> unmonitored news group?
> What do you think we could do to get IGI to market more aggressively?

<entire digest copy deleted>

I'm afraid that Mr. amarin@walldata.com has made several classic newuser
blunders.  He included an entire 30K digest as part of a reply, and he
doesn't seem to have read the section on how to create a newsgroup in
the news.announce.newusers FAQ.  I suppose that we should be grateful
that what he did write was in plain text, and not in some illegible
binary-encoded attachment.

Now, who's going to break it to him that IG is out of business...?

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net
(Stirring in cold sleep occasionally)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:06:10 EDT
From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
Subject: Re: The Spinward Marches

Sorry, my photocopy is of the 5th Frontier war campaign. I do know that a
little web searching should find you a used copy for 6-15 US dollars
(depending on condition). Good luck.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:17:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

Fri, 15 May 1998 21:07:27 -0500, Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
> >>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
> >>have orbits that cross the Earth's.

> >This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
> >asteroids that can interact with Earth...

> How do they know how many they haven't found?

It is not so much a matter of finding, as figuring out
orbits.  They have a "general" idea of how many asteroids
there are.  Also, when you look at successive areas,
the numbers can be taken as representative of what
you will find as you go along.

> This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
> go undetected.

Well, as far as I know asteroids don't try and actively
avoid detection  :-)

______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 21:38:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Joseph M. Saul" <jmsaul@us.itd.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller News Group?

amarin wrote:

>Email lists and web bases forums (that just append mail to a web page or
>list) cannot compete with the responsiveness and convenience of a true news
>group.

No offense, but have you ever talked to a news administrator?  Here at UM,
where we have a pretty good computing environment, we still manage to drop
news posts on a fairly regular basis -- the email, on the other hand, always
gets through.  I think you have a skewed view of the reliability of these
services, to put it mildly.

Joe Saul
jmsaul@umich.edu

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 98 20:44:36 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

On 05/18/98 at 01:47 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
said:

>> The "Mehrwertsteuer" is 10%. (In Germany it is actually 15 %). So the
>> Merchant will ask for 110 Cr. and gives the 10 Cr. to the Goverment.

>This is the same as the sales or VAT system mentioned in other posts. 

It sounds more like a sales tax than a VAT.  I don't think the Imperium
would use either.  Both would be too intrusive on the worlds...remember the
Imperium controls the "space between the worlds."

>In America a national sales tax has been advocated by people as diverse as
>Frank Zappa to Dick Armey. As an entirely consumption-based tax it is
>attractive in many ways, but the paperwork demands on small businesses in
>particular can be extensive. 

That's true, the paperwork is a regular pain.  Thing is most states and
many local governments already levy sales taxes in the US, so adding a
national bite wouldn't add much to the paperwork..or it wouldn't *have* to. 
Of course, it *would* turn into a nightmare.

A National Sales tax has other problems, though, like being a
progressive tax that hits harder on the poor and middle class than the
rich.  Whether that's true or not and whether that bothers me or not isn't
the point, it's a political perception that will kill this kind of tax
right at the gate.

>A straight sales tax at the retail level avoids this problem but
>includes a large number of others.  For instance, were we to do that in
>this country, I'd immediately found a business, and pay for my business
>license, etc.  Presto, I can buy at wholesale and avoid the taxes.

If you do that, and get caught, you'll go to the slammer.  I've got a tax
number, here in Florida, and I can use it to buy goods with no sales tax,
however those goods *must* be used in my business, not for personal use. 
If the items are used by me personally, given to anyone else for use, or
sold I have to collect the sales tax from whoever I sell it to (or myself)
and report it on the proper forms, and there are agents out there who
*enforce* this law.  Not to say folks don't try it...a couple of regular
folks I know tried to play cozy with the tax laws and are now enjoying
public care...if you catch my drift.

>Also, these schemes typically exempt a lot of services and goods; combined
>with the various 'My business owns my house and buys my food' loopholes,

Geeze, I *know* you'd do time if you got caught trying that!  You *might*
get away with the "auto for business" ploy, but they're cracking down on
that here now.

As for exempting certain classes of goods, that's usually to "protect" the
poor by exempting the "necessities of life" from tax (food and medicine
usually).

In Florida, all services are exempt because they don't involve the trade of
*goods*, and that's what the tax is being levied on.  A service tax was
passed by the legislature a few years ago to raise money, but there was
such a public outcry from the public that the Governor called a special
session and the law was repelled before it even went into effect.

>That tends to piss off the masses.

Isn't that the truth.  ;-> National Tax Day for the US was last Friday,
wasn't it?

>I've yet to see a 'national sales tax' scheme proposed (at least here in
>the US) that did a whole lot to eliminate, for instance, the problems we
>have here in the US with taxes. (unequal tax burdens, a code riddled with
>loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight, evenly applied sales tax
>on _everything_ no exceptions, would work, but hell, so would a straight,
>evenly applied income tax. 

A flat tax on income from ALL sources is what I'd prefer.  No tax on the
first XXX thousand, but no exceptions for *anything* else.  I'm not holding
my breath. ;-> But back to Traveller...

Guys, you are thinking too Earthy.  In the Traveller universe the only
taxes the Imperium would directly levy would be import/export duties on
trade passing through the Imperially controlled Starports.  That's why the
Imperium *owns* the Starports, and why systems tend to have a *single*
starport...everything *has* to pass through Imperial customs where a cut
comes out.  Indirect taxes would be Feudal duties imposed from the Emperor
down to the Archdukes, to the dukes, to the individual system governments. 
That's the Imperium in MTU, anyway.


Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 18:06:08 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

> From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
> Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
> > The simplest method is to get one of the lawyers on the list (*hint*) to
> > come up with a form of words that forces every entity owning 2 or more
> > starships to cut the Imperium in for 5% of net profits.
> 
> Don't look at me.  I just successfully completed my J.D. without taking anytax
> courses.  Yippee!

Me, neither.  I only took personal income tax, not any of the really
complicated courses relevant to the question at hand.  Anyway, we should
surely have the first few drafts done by the accountants on the list. 
They're the people who really know about taxes.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:20:28 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

> > The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready
for
> > GURPS Traveller :)
> 
> <sounds of gunshots in the background>
> 
> Next?

Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g> 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:19:27 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

Well, amarin, I do appriciate your enthusiasm and welcome to the list.
However, you are just slightly out of date. Mr. Miller and Traveller are no
longer associated with IG, so I would say that the chances of them producing
a newsgroups are rather slim. As  to why T4 isn't in more stores, well, I
can only think that since it isn't being produced anym more it will only get
worse.

But all is not lost! Marc has assured the List that he is still working on a
new and improved version of Trav and is in contact with several publishers,
negotiating for it's release. I have a great deal of faith that the new
publishers Marc selects will do a much better job publishing Traveller and
marketing it!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: amarin@walldata.com <amarin@walldata.com>
To: traveller-digest@mpgn.com <traveller-digest@mpgn.com>
Cc: suggestions@imperiumgames.com <suggestions@imperiumgames.com>
Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 7:52 PM
Subject: Marc Miller's T4 News Group


>Wouldn't it be cool if Imperium Games Inc. published a news group?
>Games.rec.traveller.t4
<Snip>
>Now I can only speak for Western Washington State area, but there are
>precious few locations that carry Traveller T4 products at this time.
>Compared to the number of RPG's available in general, found at the
multitude
>of W. Wash hobby shops, T4 is virtually nonexistent. I'm a RPG'er from way
>back (so I remember the small Traveller books/moduals) but have problem
>finding other T4 players (any Traveller players actually, any age), I fear
>we are a dying breed, smothered by better marketed games. I wondered if
this
>was a trend in other locations. If so, I feel it's a marketing blunder. Why
>can't I find Traveller products in more locations. Currently, I can only
>find the game for sale in two stores in the W. Wash area: "Wizards of the
>Coast" and "Wonder World". This game's been out two years, according to the
>inside cover, why isn't it more proliferated? This is a source of concern
>for all of us, because if the game doesn't take off, it will (in time)
>disappear or become to domain of a few die-hards. Science Fiction is really
>big right now, this game should fly!
>
>What do you think we could do to get Marc and Co. to upgrade to a
>unmonitored news group?

>What do you think we could do to get IGI to market more aggressively?
>I would like to hear your comments, opinions, etc. If you too believe this
>is a good idea, perhaps we can all write Imperium Games Co. and tell them
>so.
>
>Here's the email address:
>suggestions@imperiumgames.com <mailto:suggestions@imperiumgames.com>
>
>
>----------
>From:  owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com
>[SMTP:owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com]
>Sent:  Saturday, May 16, 1998 8:57 AM
>To:  traveller-digest@lists.MPGN.COM
>Subject:  Traveller-digest V1998 #492
>
>
>Traveller-digest       Saturday, May 16 1998       Volume 1998 : Number 492
>
>
>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
>All rights reserved.
>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:
>
>Re: Wind Speeds
>Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.
>Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
>Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
>Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
>Re: Expanded life support costs
>Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?
>Illo References
>Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
>Core Subsector names
>Re: requesting feedback...
>Re: Core Subsector names
>Core subsector names
>Re: jumping from atmosphere,
>Authorized copies?
>Re: Offer to the TML
>Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
>Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
>Re: MT Character Generator
>Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
>Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:52:02 -0600
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Wind Speeds
>
>>Date: Thu, 14 May 1998 18:56:34 -0500
>>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>>Subject: Wind Speeds
>>
>>The jet stream averages 35 mph in the summer and 75 mph in the winter.
>>Speeds as high as 200 mph have been recorded, but that is unusual.
>>
>>Thunderstorms don't typically move very fast, usually something like
>>50-100 miles per day.  Austin, Texas is about 170 miles from Houston,
>>Texas.  I've lived in both places.  Weather takes a day or two to
>>get from one to the other.  Winds in thunderstorms don't normally
>>exceed 30-50 mph at the *most*.  Above that and you have a tropical
>>storm, a storm of unusually high winds.  Winds of 75 mph and higher
>>are only found in hurricanes.
>>
>>Now obviously turbulence can be more violent, but in my personal
>>experience from flying and the fact that planes generally don't
>>get turned upside down, such violent, random winds are relatively
>>rare.
>>
>>This is the only atmosphere of any thickness that we know much
>>about.
>>
>
>Local geography can have a tremendous effect on these values.  I am also a
>pilot, and I have been stationed at Fort Carson in Colorado Springs for a
>total of four years now.  I have personally witnessed winds in clear air at
>ground level in excess of seventy knots (tents blown away, antennae and
>trees knocked down, etc.) on one occassion, and one or two incidents of
>winds in excess of 50 knots every year - not including thunderstorms.  One
>of the very few airline accidents in the past 25 years still listed by the
>NTSB as "unsolved" occured at Colorado Springs airport: a 727 on short
>final simply rolled completely over and crashed.  The black box was an
>older type, and could only confirm the facts without giving an clue as to
>why.  Best guess is a "horizontal rotor vortex" (I think that's the term) -
>a volume of clear air turbulence that rolls like a giant log off the
>mountains - that literally flipped the plane over when it was too low for
>the pilot to recover.
>
>I have also witnessed winds in excess of 110 knots on the ground on several
>occassions in 1991 in Germany - the trees looked like they had been combed
>flat, all in the same direction.  Fortunately, this followed a similar
>incident at Fort Hood, Texas, that destroyed almost a billion dollars in
>Apaches and Chinooks, so that we were in the habit of hangaring our
>aircraft every weekend, or when the weather forcast called for any high
>winds.
>
>Wind speeds on Mars, by the bye, can typically exceed 300 knots at ground
>level, but are so thin that the fines barely move.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 17:15:06 -0700
>From: "Suz Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
>Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game.
>
>> > There are at least three games going on IRC that I'm aware of and I
>> > know someone who is planning to start a fourth in a few months.
>>
>> Details, details!!!!!!!!!!
>
>Ok! OK! :)
>
>Stuart Dollar runs a game on Sunday nights, 8pm Central on Undernet.
>We usually use Springfield, but the server must have suffered a
>serious crash and has been down for some time. We have been using an
>alternate server that is not connected to IRC at large. Email me for
>details if you'd like to lurk.  My husband might be looking for
>another player or two that are serious about playing regularly.
>
>JD Burdick runs a game on Monday nigts at 7:30pm Central on the
>aforementioned alternate server.  This game has run for over a year
>and has only missed three or four sessions. At present there are no
>openings in this game.
>
>Commander X runs a game, I believe on Tuesday nights and again on the
>alternate server (anyone spot a trend here? :> ).  I don't have many
>details on this one, but the game is centered around the mysterious
>Planet X and reports have it that it is more tech/gear-head oriented
>than the other two.
>
>I have no details at present regarding the forth-coming game other
>than I will be running a quasi-NPC behind the scenes for it.  Feel
>free to email me your interest and I'll try to put you in touch with
>the GM.
>
>Again, feel free to email me on any of the above or for more
>information about gaming on IRC.
>
>Suz
>
>
>Suzette C. Dollar
>#Traveller Channel Manager
>suzd@goodnet.com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:54:12 GMT
>From: johnl@vnet.net (John Lansford)
>Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
>
>On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:
>
>
>>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>>have orbits that cross the Earth's.
>
>This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
>asteroids that can interact with Earth...
>
>John Lansford
>"I'm damaged, and I like it. It made me what I am."
>Donald Roeser, "Damaged"
>
>http://users.vnet.net/lansford/a10/intro.htm
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:06:52
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
>
> Andy Gibson <Andy@yarm.demon.co.uk> wrote
>>
>>I have roughed out a generic "investment" system designed to allow
>>investment in worlds and trade routes and to work in Resource Units (a
>>PE concept). I have worked on a 10 percent base return because tax has
>>to be taken into account and the rates of return so far quoted as
>>acceptable (4-5%) have been after tax if we take the real world as a
>>model. I have also considered treating each corporation as a corporate
>>government with a 20% "tax" level (itself taxed, as this is not the
>>world government) on all employees and required investment of twice the
>>combined income of all employees.
>>
>
>If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on your
>average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.
>
>Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
>Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
>they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
>megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you have
>to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares).
>
>I'd be interested in how you quantify interstellar trade - my GUTTT system
>basically works from bottom up, and says for every Cr1000/dton you can make
>on a run on average, 1% of the smaller planets economy will be dedicated to
>that trade. Then I toss in higher-value cargoes than 'vanilla' Traveller
>supports (which leads to *very* long trade routes), which have relatively
>smaller GDP impact (but trade with 20 planets of 0.2 percent of GDP impact
>each turns into a big chunk of GDP).
>
>The idea of rating Corporate interests on a planet as a planet for PE
>purposes is interesting - to extend the idea, you could also have culture
>etc ratings for each company.
>
>>In general I think the best approach will be to work on simply paying
>>for a ship outright and running it for profit.  If this works out to
>>give a decent return all the other financial stuff will work itself out
>>one way or another - but the activity (in this case interstellar trade)
>>must be basically worthwhile to occur. The internal rate of return for
>>the ships in the T4 "Starships" book vary widely:
>>
>>Free Trader           9%     (26%)
>>Far Trader           -2%(!)  ( 3%)
>>Secure Trader        -2%(!)  ( 4%)
>>Subsidised Merchant  13%     (43%)
>>Subsidised Liner      0%     ( 5%)
>>Large Armed Freighter 6%     (27%)
>>Luxury Liner          4%     ( 4%)
>>
>>Figures for freight rates of 1000 Cr/te (4000 Cr/te).  A figure of ~15%
>>IRR would be required to be attractive.  As you can see a "Secure
>>Trader" is far from secure and a "Far Trader" will not get very far!  At
>>4000 Cr/te, however, it is hard to see why a Subsidised Merchant needs
>>to be subsidised...  It seems to me that this is strong evidence for
>>differential freight rates depending on safety and length of route.
>
>Yes. The theory with a Far Trader was always it would go broke shipping
>freight but it could make more profit than a jump-1 ship could shipping
>speculative cargo (imagine two worlds 4 parsecs apart where you have a
>expected specualtive profit of Cr 3000 per dton. A jump-1 ship gets a
>revenue of Cr750/jump, a jump 2 ship Cr 1500/jump).
>
>Frankly, I find fixed freight rates silly. Do you have a copy of Hans'
>Freight and Passenger table ?
>
>Actually, a freight system that took into account the merchant's skills
>would be nice.
>
>>Alternatively perhaps the designs in Starships! are so non-optimal as to
>>make these rates meaningless??
>
>Yes. Starships, as a product, is one of the reasons IG went broke. Their
>quality control was just too inconsistent.
>
>>I have assumed (a) 100% full holds and
>>cabins and (b) refined fuel because if (a) were not so the ships would
>>go to another route unless they *were* subsidised and (b) makes little
>>difference, especially if refining takes any extra time. Also assumes 25
>>trips per year (perhaps a little low with refined fuel).
>
>This about cancels out with 90% of capacity and 30 trips a year, which you
>can easily do if you have agents on planets with warehouses to store cargo
>until shipment.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Fri, 15 May 1998 21:07:27 -0500
>From: Bolie Williams IV <bolie@io.com>
>Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
>
>At 7:54 PM -0500 5/15/98, John Lansford wrote:
>>On Fri, 15 May 1998 14:06:39 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>>NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
>>>have orbits that cross the Earth's.
>>
>>This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
>>asteroids that can interact with Earth...
>
>How do they know how many they haven't found?
>
>This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
>go undetected.
>
>I'm thinking:  how do they know how many go undetected if they
>haven't detected them?
>
>Bolie IV
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Bolie Williams IV
>bolie@io.com
>http://www.io.com/~bolie/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:53:26 +1200
>From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: Expanded life support costs
>
>"Buston, John" <john.buston@eds.com> wrote:
>> Note that T4 uses a transportation charges of Cr4000 per ton. So in T4
>> low berths lose Cr2100 per DT over shipping an equal amount of cargo,
>> mid-passage loses Cr1000 per DT, and high passage breaks even. Don't
>> even consider large staterooms and rip those low berths out now!
>
>Although the text says "4000" per  ton, the ship revenues
>table on page 113 says 1000 per ton. I'm not sure which one
>is the typpo, but I'm guessing the text.
>
>Speaking of T4 typo's are the ship prices in there for
>real? 21 Mcr for a scout/courier?
>
>Steve
>- --
>Ulf fra Siaelland          wulf@sea.southern.co.nz
>Quarterly Gules and Argent
>Southron Gaard, Caid
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:39:06 EDT
>From: Sethkimmel <Sethkimmel@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: Does anyone have core subsector names?
>
>Here it is, courtesy of Trav. Digest #10, pg.#24:
>
>Apge        Perite      Ameros  Shinkan
>Sanches   Mekee     Core      Kaskii
>Bunkeria   Cemplas  Chant    Dingtra
>Cadion     Ch'naar   Dunea   Saregon
>
>Hope that helps,
>
>Seth
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:06:50 EDT
>From: GDW GAMES <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
>Subject: Illo References
>
>OK floks, I need some assistance here.
>
>1) I need illo references to give to various artists so they can get the
>look
>of Gurps Traveller right.
>
>2) he vast majority of my Traveller material is in a storage locker in
>Illinois (don't ask...it is too painful)
>
>3) I need everything that exists on the following subjects:
>
>     Strephon
>     All castes of Droyne.
>     The Vegans
>      That d*mned dandelion/flower/plant thing/race alien that no one can
>pronounce and that starts with an "L"
>
>Email to lkw@io.com
>Fax to (512) 447-1144
>
>Thanks,
>
>Loren Wiseman
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 06:06:36 GMT
>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>Subject: Re: Burst Fire vs. Auto Fire
>
>On Fri, 8 May 1998 21:31:08 +0000, Pearson Publishing wrote:
>
>> I am curious to know, for those of you using T4 rules, how you handle
>> burst fire, as opposed to auto fire.  For example, the ACR has an
>> option to fire 3 round bursts.  However, now difference is listed for
>> damage, or the possiblity to hit other targets.  Thanks for the
>> input.
>
>You will have to check two other sources to find this out.  Emperor's
>Arsenal details a few new combat rules, including autofire.
>Guns!Guns!Guns! by BTRC, however, has a Traveller conversion section that
>is far more complete.
>
>In essence, use the following chart:
>
>Rnds/Sec    Rnds/turn     Damage     ROF DM   Weapon Type
>   4-          <30         1.5x        -1
>  5-10        30-60         2x         +0
> 11-20        61-120       2.5x        +1
> 21-50       121-300        3x         +2        RF
>  51+          >300         4x         +4        VRF
>
>Autofire is based on a /sustainable/ ROF.  If a weapon runs out of ammo
>during a six-second combat turn, it is not reloaded to get a higher ROF
>(eg: a machine pistol that empties its 32 round magazine in 2 seconds still
>fires at an *average* ROF of 5.33 rounds per second *during a six-second
>combat turn*, for a +0 autofire DM).
>
>
>
>James W. Lindsay   Vancouver, British Columbia
> "http://www.prosperoimaging.com/ground_zero"
>            ICQ: 7521644 (Sharkey)
>
>         Mano au mano, the "Professor"
>          would kick MacGyver's ass.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:30:56 EDT
>From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
>Subject: Core Subsector names
>
>Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> asks:
>
>>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names
by
>>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.  Does
>>anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what they are?
>
>From Traveller's Digest #8:
>
>A: Apge
>B: Perite
>C: Ameros
>D: Shinkan
>E: Sanches
>F: Mekee
>G: Core
>H: Kaskii
>I: Bunkeria
>J: Cemplas
>K: Chant
>L: Dingtra
>M: Cadion
>N: Ch'naar
>O: Dunea
>P: Saregon
>
>With library data spread out in TD# 8 thru 10...
>
>GypsyComet
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 00:55:36 -0700
>From: dberry@hooked.net
>Subject: Re: requesting feedback...
>
>At 01:32 PM 5/15/98 PDT, you wrote:
>>Hello folks,
>>
>> I still need to purchase the following T4 products:
>>
>> Imperial Squadrons
>
>Companion piece to PE.  War rules based heavily on Fifth Frontier War,
>rules on playing Naval characters.  Problems:  My ship designs got
>butchered down to puppy chow, no maps, some problems with the sample
>scenarios. 7 out of 10.
>
>> The Annililik Run
>
>Awful.  AD&D in space.  Attack of the Mutant Space Mold.  0 out of 10.
>
>> Naval Architect's Manual
>
>Nice deckplans, but some of the text is non-canonical or just odd.. like
>putting ship gunners in clear blisters for visual (!) aiming.  This isn't a
>book of complete ship plans, but elements.  Good for mining ideas. 6 out of
>10.
>
>> Emperor's Vehicles
>
>Not worth it.  The vehicles are so thinly described and poorly done it's a
>joke.  They don't even have the tech level listed!  Not even worth getting
>for the completeness factor.
>
>How bad are The Annililik Run and Emperor's Vehicles?  If you must have
>them, send me your address and I 'll *give* you mine.  This from the guy
>who grins at Traveller auctions because I already own most everything.
>
>
>- --
>
>Douglas E. Berry
>Templar Agent at Large.
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html
>
>TravGeekCode:
>tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
>jt- au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 01:09:32 -0700
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Subject: Re: Core Subsector names
>
>GypsyComet, Seth Kimmel,
>
>Thank you, and much obliged.
>
>Scott
>
>
>- -------
>Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
>"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
>"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
>Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:04:57 +0200
>From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
>Subject: Core subsector names
>
>Fri, 15 May 1998 15:13:50 -0700 Scott Ellsworth
><Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote:
>
>>I was given a very useful list of the various sector and subsector names
by
>>Leonard Erickson, but it does not have the subsector names for Core.
>Does
>anyone know if these have been generated, and if they have, what >they are?
>
>A: Apge
>B: Perite
>C: Ameros
>D: Shinkan
>E: Sanches
>F: Mekee
>G: Core
>H: Kaskii
>I: Bunkeria
>J: Cemplas
>K: Chant
>L: Dingtra
>M: Cadion
>N: Ch'naar
>O: Dunea
>P: Saregon
>
>Source: TD 10
>
>Mark Seemann
>mark@dk-online.dk (home)
>mse@oticon.dk (work)
>http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 02:29:09 -0800
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
>Subject: Re: jumping from atmosphere,
>
>Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU> wrote
>
>> All the GM's with players who have tried jumping from atmosphere,
>> raise your hands... :)
>
>I have had a charecter on a ship that other [foolish] charecters took
>into jump space from the inside of a pressurized bay on the planets
>highport within .1 diameter of the planet.  They did this while
>attempting to chase down another scout ship which was doing the same
>thing.  But wait, it gets worse.
>
>They put this ship into jump space inside the high port
>
>_while_there_were_people_on_the_hull_of_the_ship_.
>
>Fortunately for them the GM was using MT rules which, as written,
>provide a drastic penalty for jumping within 10 diameters but do not
>impose any further penalty for jumping from within 1 diameter, or within
>0.1 diameter, or while in atmosphere.  They also state [SOM] that the
>jump bubble forms 1 to 2 meters from the hull.  All the players on the
>hull made their Dex rolls not to be cut in half by the jump field and
>then came abord the ship as if nothing had happened.  My charecter was
>the ships Engineer at the time (with good skill in Engineering, some
>skill in Physics, and a high Education).  I could _not_ persuade the
>other charecters, or the other players, how mind numbingly dumb they
>were.  We came out of jump just fine, 14 days and 29 parsecs later,
>IIRC.  This only encouraged the players to try further reckless
>misjumps.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:46:28 +0100
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
>Subject: Authorized copies?
>
>Yes please. Any and everything I don't have.
>
>MJD.
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:04:37 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Offer to the TML
>
>Smart, David J (David) wrote:
>
>> I'd be happy to make copies of any material *which won't violate
>> copyrights*. In other words, I won't copy items which are currently in
>> print or are available online, either at an online store or currently up
>> for auction. I *will* point you to the store or auction, though. Once the
>> auction is over, though, we can talk.
>
>Just FYI, that would still violate copyright laws, or to be more
>precise,that a copyrighted work is not in print or available online or
>otherwise,
>does not give anyone the right to reproduce or otherwise the copyright
>of the owner of such a work.  These factors are also not reflected in
>the Fair Use doctrine.  So, you would have no defense.
>
>Having said that, your generosity is welcomed.
>
>Bloo
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:19:42 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Profitable starships and Traveller Economics
>
>Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>> If the 'standard rate of profit' is 10%, then the interest payments on
>your
>> average starship mortgage are going to be a lot higher.
>
>With ya on that.
>
>> Most people assume the Imperium doesnt directly tax income - how the
>> Imperium actually raises revenue is an interesting question (me, I think
>> they invoice planetary governments, and own large chunks of
>> megacorporations. I think to become a Limited Imperial Corporation you
>have
>> to cut the Imperium a block of non-voting shares).
>
>I think you must be right.  (Good idea with the non-voting shares.  This
>seemsreasonable since you the block of votes could be a very low percentage
>but you make it up on volume of corporations.  Then, literally,
>'What's Good for Zhunastu Industries, Is Good for the Imperium.'
>
>It seems to me that the Imperium could probably work on a basis similar to
>the United Nations, in terms of funding.  All member states pay a
percentage
>of their Gross National Product (might actually be Domestic, I'm not sure).
>The percentage is the same for all members.  Since the Imperium works on
>a similar principle, i.e., not directly governing member states but the
>spaces
>between the stars.
>
>
>Bloo
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:29:18 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
>
>Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
>and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.
>
>Thanks
>
>Bloo
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 10:50:10 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>Subject: Re: MT Character Generator
>
>Svenson, Gregory (FL51) wrote:
>
>> I am currently working on extending it with a couple of the TNE careers
>> that were not available in MT (law school, attorney,
>
>This stuff was in MT?  Dang!  I should have looked at this stuff.
>I never have seen _any_ MT stuff.
>
>If someone would graciously post or send me the stuff on law school
>and the attroney career, I would be very grateful.
>I get my JD on Sunday and want to compare the actual experience.
>
>Plus, I can put my self in traveller now.  Vicarious role-playing, got to
>love it.
>
>Bloo
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:38:39 -0400
>From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
>
>AHL was the largest ship designed with deck plans during the course of
>Traveller. I don't remember exact numbers, something like 100,000 td ?
>Published as a game with full color deck plans, scenarios, adn the near
>mythical Suppliment 5 (unavailable without purchase of the game) whic
>included stats and "tumbnail" views of the various decks of the AHL, along
>with discriptive material.
>
>Striker was the large combat Traveller game. I never owned it but I belive
>it contained rules to create and operate large unit "Mercenary" or Ground
>Combat type combat, as well a construct nd use ground combat vehicles. I
>don't remember if it covered air combat or not.
>
>Hope this helps a bit
>Mike Peters
>Letterworks@CITNET.com
>"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Daniels <blueboy@bu.edu>
>To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
>Date: Saturday, May 16, 1998 10:43 AM
>Subject: Re: Supplement 5 anyone?-Description?
>
>
>>Can someone please describe for me what Azhanti High Lightning,
>>and Supplement 5, are?  And Striker, too.  If you don't mind.
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>Bloo
>>
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 11:59:16 -0400
>From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: Re: CU-Seeme "Live" game. <longish>
>
>Follow-up to my previously posted message (See below) to answer questions
>that were asked by most everyone that responded.
>
>FIRST - The Software
>
>1.  CU-SeeMe software allows people with a camera "broadcast" live images
>over the net and be displayed by ANYONE on the reflector.  People who are
on
>just watching are caller "Lurkers" but any and all can type (chat) live and
>everyone will see that.  You can also use a sound card and attach a
>microphone and speakers/headset to do live voice.  This eats up a
tremendous
>amount of bandwidth and slows things down pretty bad.  The key is everyone
>can see what I broadcast with my video and every can chat at the same time.
>2. ICQ is a little program that lets you know when another person that also
>uses ICQ gets on the I-net and you can send notes to them individually.  I
>want to use this as a supplement to CU-SeeMe and possibly (if we have no
>choice) a back-up means of communication.
>3. Both pieces of software are free.
>4. I have a very high speed line (cable modem) so I won't see much lag from
>the players.  It's possible that the players will see some lag from me
>because I'm sending a great deal of bandwidth but generally if there is NO
>change in the video that frees up the bandwidth and things will go pretty
>normal.
>
>SECOND - The Game
>1. My intent right now is to use TNE (maybe T4) character generation in a
>pre-rebellion CT/MT setting (just after the 5th FW).  The exact area is
>still being decided but it will wind up in Zho space (passing thru the
>Marches).  This keeps the TL up to 14/15 (which I like) and there is plenty
>of published material available for any and all who still have it (I can
>provide some).
>2. I will put up a list of character professions/abilities that I need for
>this assignment and the players will roll their own, bring one from another
>campaign, I'll roll it for you, well you get the idea.  Final players will
>get my seal of approval (just to keep some game balance) and we will head
>out.
>3. This is a subsidized adventure and a ship with NPC will be provided by
>the sponsor.
>4. Standard weapons and some combat materials will be provided also.
>5. Initial setup will be done thru E-mail and I will keep records on my end
>for the player characters.
>6. Most other functions and the bulk of the record keeping will be
>accomplished by the players.
>
>The response was much larger than I first anticipated and if their are
other
>GM's who would be interested in running a game using this format please
>contact me and I will help get you started.  There are a number of benefits
>by doing it long distance:
>1. Propping your feet up while you sip your suds and you don't have to
drive
>home afterwards.
>2. Don't have to get the dining room table cleaned off to run the game.
>3. No SPECIAL house cleaning for your guests (my wife likes this one, she
>bought me the video camera when I explained how it would work <BG>).
>4. You can keep secrets easier and not get that "I'll do what Joe's doing"
>from a player that thinks he/she might have missed a hook that someone else
>caught. (I especially hate this one)  This makes for better balance in my
>way of thinking and it makes the players declare things much better.
>5. You can have subplots running with players without getting someone
else's
>nose in it.
>6. NPC's are easier to use in ALL ways.
>
>I'm sorry for intruding on the TML again but I put this back up because of
>the type and quantity of the responses.  The Traveller world needs to get a
>larger following.  I hope no one gets too upset.  I believe that this will
>be my last post on the subject.
>
>As always, please respond directly to me in private E-mail
>thomharr@mediaone.net and I will do my best to reply to everyone.  To those
>who have already replied, I hope this answers the initial questions you had
>and will help you make up your minds whether to play or not.
>
>Thom
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net>
>Subject: CU-Seeme "Live" game.
>
>
>>I am considering running a game over the Internet [LIVE] with "CU-Seeme"
>and
>>"ICQ" software.  If you are familiar with these two pieces of software and
>>are interested in playing Traveller from home please contact me at
>>thomharr@mediaone.net and NOT on the TML.  Just so you know, you don't
need
>>a camera to see what I'm broadcasting.  If things go as planned I will
>start
>>it up the middle to end of June.  This is due to some overwhelming family
>>matters that won't be resolved before then.   As far as I know we will be
>>the very first gaming group to ever do RPG this way.  [About time we put
>>this TL-7/8 technology to work. ;-)]
>>
>>Thanks to the TML for allowing this intrusion.
>>
>>Thom Harris
>>Greater Metro Boston, MA - USA
>>
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of Traveller-digest V1998 #492
>**********************************
>
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>
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>
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------------------------------

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 498



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group 
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing... 
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Imperial Tax Policy 
Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group 
Re: Imperial Tax Policy
MT question: Prismatic aerosol
Re: Imperial Revenue Service
re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)
Re: The Spinward Marches
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing... 
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)
Re: Imperial Tax Policy 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:22:20 -0400
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

At 03:08 PM 5/18/98 -0500, Aldrien wrote:
<SNIP>...
>...A merchant wants to sell Bananas for 100 Cr.
>The "Mehrwertsteuer" is 10%. (In Germany it is actually 15 %). So the
>Merchant will ask for 110 Cr. and gives the 10 Cr. to the Goverment. The
>same goes for services, like window-cleanig or whatever you like. This
>system has some good effects, since not all of the people are
>self-employed. This means, you do not need to tax everyone, which keeps
>paperwork acceptible. The probibly best thing you get with this system,
>is that you4re able to tax all these peole who are not registerd
>somewere or who travelle too much through the galaxy to be taxed by one
>goverment. This means most player characters!!! You will be able to tax
>people whenever they buy anything!!
>This system is not perfect, of couse, since a black-market would still
>avoid this type of tax, but whenever one black-market-customer buys
>anything else, e.g. bread, cloth, a car... you get to tax him.
>

The more socially concious types might argue that this tax steals from the
poor, as fixed expenses consume a higher portion of their income.  This
would seem to drive those expenses still higher.  One could consider a
"local" tax for provable, documented residents of a locale, and an
"expatriate" tax - much as you describe - applicable to transients - those
who cannot prove residency in the locale...



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:40:17 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

>Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g>
>
>Gary

This is interesting, considering the venomous attacks that occured on the
version of Traveller that you take your name from. I supported TNE then, and
I still support anyone's right to enjoy whatever version of Traveller they
choose.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:12:01
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Imperial Tax Policy

I appreciate what people are saying that taxing interstellar trade when it
goes thru starports would be simpler and easier, and I even agree, but ...

Taxing interestellar trade will tend to discourage it, and the Imperium
exists to encourage interstellar trade. Taxing planets wont have this
effect (but it will have other problems).

The next question is what legal rights do Dukes, Barons etc have ? Does
your Subsector Duke have the legal right to tax a world ? Saying 'yes' gets
you a truly feudal Imperium, but it seems to violate the 'Imperium doesnt
run worlds' policy.

The final question is what infrastructure exists to support Imperial Tax
policy. Is it a job for the Imperial Nobility, or are there Imperial
Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams ("The drop on Takaka in '26 was a
mess ... we went in there from orbit with a company of Imperial Marines ...
they had guards in there but we managed to sieze the entire government
records complex with 12% casualties and only minor losses of records.
They'd booby trapped the complex but three weeks later, the investigation
was complete and an Imperial Blockade was declared but suspended pending
negotiations with the new local government").

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:34:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

> > > The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready
> for
> > > GURPS Traveller :)
> > 
> > <sounds of gunshots in the background>
> > 
> > Next?
> 
> Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g> 

Shoot faster and straighter next time.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:38:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group 

> Well, amarin, I do appriciate your enthusiasm and welcome to the list.
> However, you are just slightly out of date. Mr. Miller and Traveller are no
> longer associated with IG, so I would say that the chances of them producing
> a newsgroups are rather slim. As  to why T4 isn't in more stores, well, I
> can only think that since it isn't being produced anym more it will only get
> worse.

So howcome both you and Amarin had to quote the *ENTIRE DIGEST*?

And why did you post it *HERE* instead of on traveller-digest?????

Some of us pay *connect time*.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:40:11 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

In a message dated 98-05-18 23:13:50 EDT, you write:

<<  Imperial
 Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams ("The drop on Takaka in '26 was a
 mess ... we went in there from orbit with a company of Imperial Marines ...
 they had guards in there but we managed to sieze the entire government
 records complex with 12% casualties and only minor losses of records.
 They'd booby trapped the complex but three weeks later, the investigation
 was complete and an Imperial Blockade was declared but suspended pending
 negotiations with the new local government").
 
 Ian Whitchurch >>

hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!

richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:41:19 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

> > One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
> > aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution
in
> > its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.
> 
> Hmmm...do the Vilani clone human tissue for this?

Not unless they're canibals (which would have been an interesting partial-
solution for the problem of food on Vland). Of course this wouldn't have
worked for long.  : )  
Maybe if the Shugilli poisoned his tribe or whatever, he'd get eaten by the
survivors. lol

Clone whatever they want.  From the book, i'd suspect each vat is limited
(though maybe they can be "reprogrammed") to one kind.  Small ships (w/ a
limited # of vats) are said to have comments like "beef again? i'd kill for
lamb" be heard.

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:51:29 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

> >Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g>
> 
> This is interesting, considering the venomous attacks that occured on the
> version of Traveller that you take your name from. I supported TNE then, and
> I still support anyone's right to enjoy whatever version of Traveller they
> choose.

I don't consider GURPS to be Traveller.  And it's not a canonical issue with 
me, it's the issue of game mechanics.  G:T is Traveller converted *TO* GURPS, 
not GURPS converted to Traveller.  It's a totally different look & feel.

Now, I haven't seen T4's rules yet (hell, I didn't even *KNOW* about 'em til 
IG stopped publishing them!!), and I pretty much stopped playing about the 
time of Hard Times/Survival Margin, so I'm not too 'up' on TNE rules, but what 
I've seen since '81 has been a pretty rational and reasonable evolution of 
rules.  GURPS comes from a different set of mechanics, from a different 
viewpoint.  It was designed so you could play *any* setting with some serious 
massaging.  And the massaging is the point of it all.

CT to MT conversions are relatively minor, more of a 'chroming out' process.  
MT to TNE involved more 'chroming' and tightening up of loose ends.

GURPS is a framework.  *EVERYTHING* has to be massaged to work with it.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:56:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing... 

> Gary writes:
> 
> > From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
> > Subject: Re: Expaded Life Support Costs
> > 
> > One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
> > aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution in
> > its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.
> 
> Hmmm...do the Vilani clone human tissue for this?

Dunno.  But it reminds me of the 'carniculture tanks' of H. Beam Piper's 
various books.  (Yeah, I miss H. Beam.  He wrote some good stuff.)


> Someone else writes:
> > What do you think we could do to get Marc and Co. to upgrade to a
> > unmonitored news group?
> > What do you think we could do to get IGI to market more aggressively?
> 
> <entire digest copy deleted>
> 
> I'm afraid that Mr. amarin@walldata.com has made several classic newuser
> blunders.  He included an entire 30K digest as part of a reply, and he
> doesn't seem to have read the section on how to create a newsgroup in
> the news.announce.newusers FAQ.  I suppose that we should be grateful
> that what he did write was in plain text, and not in some illegible
> binary-encoded attachment.

Worse, he posted the *digest* to the non-digest list.

But it *could* have been worse.  He coulda read it in Netflake & posted in 
HTML.
 
> Now, who's going to break it to him that IG is out of business...?

Methinks somebody already pointed that out to him.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:02:42 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

TravelrTNE wrote:

> > > One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
> > > aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution
> in
> > > its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.
> >
> > Hmmm...do the Vilani clone human tissue for this?
>
> Not unless they're canibals (which would have been an interesting partial-
> solution for the problem of food on Vland). Of course this wouldn't have
> worked for long.  : )
> Maybe if the Shugilli poisoned his tribe or whatever, he'd get eaten by the
> survivors. lol
>
> Clone whatever they want.  From the book, i'd suspect each vat is limited
> (though maybe they can be "reprogrammed") to one kind.  Small ships (w/ a
> limited # of vats) are said to have comments like "beef again? i'd kill for
> lamb" be heard.

Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to store
biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or various
other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:39:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

 
> >        If there is trouble in an area, traders will convoy each other.
> >        10 fat traders (one missile turret, one laser) have far more
> >        firepower, than a single Gazelle Close Escord.
> 
> This isn't particularly true under most combat systems. Under High Guard
> a military ship with a good comptuer and high evasion will never be hit by 
> a civilian ship with a model/1 . . . and under Brilliant Lances and its
> successors, civilian ships lack the sensors to attack military targets at
> combat ranges - and also lack the MFDs to score hits at long range. An
> attacker could sit outside an unescorted convoy's effective weapons range
> and slice it to pieces. 
> 
> (Not to say that the Gazelle is a great escort either - a better niche 
> ship would have lower jump performance but high maneuver, decent armour, 
> and an all-laser weapons suite.)

Another thing to consider is what actually is the threat? Raiding
attacks during wartime will result in dead convoys, including the
CEs (if they are Gazelles). Piracy is a totally different story.
Pirates need to board and capture the target. A high-g military ship
that can jamm and avaoid damage while picking at them makes their
job impossible without killing the escort first. This could give the
civies time to escape. Even if the pirates nail a ship, the rest can
simply evade around an unchanging vector with their crippled friend,
and the escort can nail the pirate if it tries to board.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 22:04:27 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

>> The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready
for
>> GURPS Traveller :)
>
><sounds of gunshots in the background>
>
>Next?


I'm sorry, but this does not amuse me. I happen to like GURPS, and think
GURPS Traveller is going to be good. Moreover, I have played and run every
version of Traveller there is, and have been on this mailing list a long
time. Just because I look forward with enthusiasm to GURPS Traveller is no
reason for this kind of thing. I know what I want out of a science fiction
game, and feel that the universe setting is what's important, not the rules.
I simply think GURPS has better rules. I would not "shoot" someone who
disagrees with me and prefers to stay with CT, MT, TNE or T4, and I don't
think slamming people who like GURPS Traveller will be conducive to a
peaceful list. I went through all that acrimonious crap back when TNE was
around; I really hope we can all be more mature this time.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:44:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy 

> In a message dated 98-05-18 23:13:50 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<  Imperial
>  Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams ("The drop on Takaka in '26 was a
>  mess ... we went in there from orbit with a company of Imperial Marines ...
>  they had guards in there but we managed to sieze the entire government
>  records complex with 12% casualties and only minor losses of records.
>  They'd booby trapped the complex but three weeks later, the investigation
>  was complete and an Imperial Blockade was declared but suspended pending
>  negotiations with the new local government").
>  
>  Ian Whitchurch >>
> 
> hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!

More like BATF.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:40:33 -0400
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@citnet.com>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group 

My humblest apologies. That will teach me to be more careful and look at the
whole message.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@CITNET.com
"Help Wanted: Telepath, You know where to apply!"  unknown, bumper sticker.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, May 18, 1998 11:57 PM
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group


>And why did you post it *HERE* instead of on traveller-digest?????
>
>Some of us pay *connect time*.
>
>Keven
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:54:22 EDT
From: RSpake2064 <RSpake2064@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy

In a message dated 98-05-19 00:47:49 EDT, you write:

<< > In a message dated 98-05-18 23:13:50 EDT, you write:
 > 
 > <<  Imperial
 >  Ministry of Justice Strike Audit Teams ("The drop on Takaka in '26 was a
 >  mess ... we went in there from orbit with a company of Imperial Marines
...
 >  they had guards in there but we managed to sieze the entire government
 >  records complex with 12% casualties and only minor losses of records.
 >  They'd booby trapped the complex but three weeks later, the investigation
 >  was complete and an Imperial Blockade was declared but suspended pending
 >  negotiations with the new local government").
 >  
 >  Ian Whitchurch >>
 > 
 > hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!
 
 More like BATF.
 
 Keven >>

i thought the BATF was the IRS eilte strike team....  

richard

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 01:10:47 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: MT question: Prismatic aerosol

I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
aerosol. It's listed in vehicle descriptions and on the vehicle design
table, but not a word in the text I can find. So I ask you, assembled ladies
and gentelmen.

What is it?

What is anti-laser aerosol, for that matter?

And what is the benefit of a sandcaster on a vehicle like a Trepida grav
tank? Can it help ablate energy weapons fire, and if so, by how much.

Turning to FF&S1 has failed me (and I don't have FF&S2).

Thanks in advance,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:28:07 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Revenue Service

At 12:28 AM 19/05/98, Michael Koehne wrote:

>	the best thing a planet can therefore have is the feudal
>	technocracy with a wise lord to whom the planet belongs. He can
>	deceide to invest in industry and to pay parts of the tax from
>	his own money. He therefore would would offer a moderate tax
>	and allows the planet to grow rich, and not to become slave
>	of the Laffer curve. The wealthier lords can even pay their
>	tax from the revenue of imperial stock they hold.

And the worst a planet can have is the same government run by a greedy
lord. Historically tax farming has resulted in massive taxes on those least
able to afford them. That said though, IMO this is the most likely form of
Imperial taxation. It can even fit the Striker rules on military spending
into it.

As I said earlier this form of taxation has all sorts of interesting
adventure possibilities built into it. For instance the subsector duke
wants you to do a quiet check on the census and GDP figures of one of his
worlds. Just a routine double check, of course...

 
- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:21:07 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: re: Escort tonnage (long, analysis)

At 04:55 PM 18/05/98 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>(Not to say that the Gazelle is a great escort either - a better niche 
>ship would have lower jump performance but high maneuver, decent armour, 
>and an all-laser weapons suite.)

When designing ships I carefully differentiate between convoy escorts and
fleet escorts, for this reason. No escort doesn't need a jump drive any
bigger than the ships it's going to escort, and as IMTU most merchant ship
have J-2 at most there's no point wasting capacity the way a Gazelle does.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:10:57 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: The Spinward Marches

dberry@hooked.net wrote

> > I am seeking a copy of
> >the original Spinward Marches book. I don't even really need the book

> What you want to look for is "The Regency Sourcebook" by GDW for 
> Traveller,The New Era.  While it is TNE, and their are many changes,  > it is by far the
> best place for collected data on the Marches, Deneb, and the other two
> sectors that make up the Domain whose names escape me.

Trojan Reaches and Reft Sectors.

The Regency Sourcebook contains data on all subsectors of Spinward
Marches and Deneb Sectors, 4 subsectors of Trojan Reach, and 9
subsectors of Reft Sector.  It is 96 pages, of small type, and contains
a great deal of good information of the Domain.  I also strongly
reccomend it, if you don't play TNE you can easily ignore the TNE parts
of it.  It was $20.

Since it is a more recent product it should be much easier to find than
the original was.  If you can't find it locally you may order it from
the game store I order for, Boscos.  Send email to mailorder@boscos.com 
to purchase it, it is $19.95 + shipping.  We have 2 or 3 copies if
anyone else is looking for it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:46:44 -0700
From: "Legate" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing... 

> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@glasscity.net>
> > > One interesting bit as far as food goes is that the galley rules in FFS2
> > > aren't necessary, methinks, after TL10.  GURPS: Biotech  has the solution in
> > > its "Fauxflesh Vats."   Essentially, u clone your food.
> > Hmmm...do the Vilani clone human tissue for this?
> Dunno.  But it reminds me of the 'carniculture tanks' of H. Beam Piper's 
> various books.  (Yeah, I miss H. Beam.  He wrote some good stuff.)

I loved that idea.  A Hydroponic System for meat.

Legate
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"The system does not matter, its ROLE-Playing that matters." - Me to
Acid_Blue, Chuckles, & Rob the Lumberjackman.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:25:32 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote

> I've yet to see a 'national sales tax' scheme proposed (at least here 
> in the US) that did a whole lot to eliminate, for instance, the 
> problems we have here in the US with taxes. (unequal tax burdens, a 
> code riddled with loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight, 
> evenly applied sales tax on _everything_ no exceptions, would work, 
> but hell, so would a straight, evenly applied income tax. 

As would a per person head tax.  Everyone who lives in the United States
would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax.  Anyone without a tax stamp
would be relatively easily identifiable & sanctionable.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 19:18:19 +1200
From: Steve Rennell <wulf@sea.southern.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Also, applied across the board, as a VAT, this leads to extremely high
> taxes being levied on goods, since taxes accrue at every step along the
> manufacturing and distribution process. A straight sales tax at the
> retail level avoids this problem but includes a large number of others.
> For instance, were we to do that in this country, I'd immediately found
> a business, and pay for my business license, etc. Presto, I can buy at
> wholesale and avoid the taxes.

In New Zealand, it's set up so that everybody (businesses 
included) pays GST, and charges GST to the next person down 
the chain - The difference between the two amounts is 
forwarded to the government.
Thus if Wholesaler sells $100 thing to retailer, they slap 
on 12.5% tax, and the retailer pays %112.50. Then the 
retailer slaps on their markup so the price is now $200, 
and the tax on that is $25. Total price to consumer $225.
The retailer gets to claim back the tax paid on goods that 
are on-sold. Thus they pay tax on the goods that are used 
by the business. The Government gets 10% of the final 
amount that the goods are sold for. Nice neat system, only 
problem is that the compliance costs are huge i.e. how much 
time and effort does each retailer have to put in to make 
sure they are up to date with their tax receipts? Answer - 
lots.
 
Steve

 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 00:47:49 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

On 05/18/98 at 10:40 PM,  "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net> said:

>>Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g>
>>
>>Gary

>This is interesting, considering the venomous attacks that occured on the
>version of Traveller that you take your name from. I supported TNE then,
>and I still support anyone's right to enjoy whatever version of Traveller
>they choose.

Don't let 'em bother you Allen. I say, the more Traveller the better, and I
think most folks here agree with me...and probably with you too about GURPS
Traveller, too.

Eris,
    the Heretic

ps. fire at will! ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:38:20 -0800
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Impact-- a review (well, not really) (very mild spoiler)

"David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote

> > > >NASA has a program to find, catalog, and track asteroids that
> > > >have orbits that cross the Earth's.

> > >This is correct. So far they've identified about 5% of the possible
> > >asteroids that can interact with Earth...

> > How do they know how many they haven't found?

> It is not so much a matter of finding, as figuring out orbits.  They
> have a "general" idea of how many asteroids there are.  Also, when 
> you look at successive areas, the numbers can be taken as 
> representative of what you will find as you go along.

> > This reminds of the quote:  90% of computer security penetrations
> > go undetected.

> Well, as far as I know asteroids don't try and actively
> avoid detection  :-)

Well if asteroids _did_ try to actively avoid detection they might well
be very sucessful, as long as they knew better than to make
unexplainable movements.  Besides that you know that some of the
"asteroids" out their are really Vilani spy ships :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:08:31 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Tax Policy 

>  > hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!
>  
>  More like BATF.
>  
>  Keven >>
> 
> i thought the BATF was the IRS eilte strike team....  

Naw.  IRS is the tax collectors.  BATF is Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, & 
Firearms.  2 different outfits, 2 different focuses.  BATF goes after 
smugglers who don't pay their taxes on their booze & tobacco and people 
running illegal guns in & out of the country.  IRS goes after the 'softer' 
crooks -- tax evaders, mostly income tax.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #498
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Tuesday, May 19 1998        Volume 1998 : Number 499



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol 
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...
Armageddon: New RPG from Phil McGregor
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender
Lotteries (was Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments)
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Marc Miller's T4 News Group
Imperial Tax Policy
Re: Marches Sourcebook
Re: Marches Sourcebook 
Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group
Free Gurps Lite
Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:15:46 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: MT question: Prismatic aerosol 

> I was going through my MT books tonight, and I came across prismatic
> aerosol. It's listed in vehicle descriptions and on the vehicle design
> table, but not a word in the text I can find. So I ask you, assembled ladies
> and gentelmen.
>
> What is it?

It's a laser defense.  What it does is, when you spray it in the air, it 
disperses laser bolts shot at you.

> What is anti-laser aerosol, for that matter?

See above.

> And what is the benefit of a sandcaster on a vehicle like a Trepida grav
> tank? Can it help ablate energy weapons fire, and if so, by how much.

A sandcaster can help cut down on the hits you'll take from laser or energy weapons because it throws a 'cloud' of solid matter up around you for a few seconds.  Energy bolt hits the cloud and disperses.  Less of it hits *you*.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:36:20 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

> >Dammit!  I was sighting in...  You stole my shot.  <g>
> >
> >Gary
> 
> This is interesting, considering the venomous attacks that occured on the
> version of Traveller that you take your name from. I supported TNE then, and
> I still support anyone's right to enjoy whatever version of Traveller they
> choose.

Easy there, khihe.  I come in peace.  Didn't u see the <g>?  lol.  I'm
contemplating getting the GURPS:Traveller stuff if it looks good.  (And maybe
even if it doesn't, if I can find a way to fit it in my campaign that is a
dozen sectors away and 80 years ahead in an "alternate" timeline).  But then,
I also bought stuff set 1200 years before my campaign and a similar
distance... ; )  I supported T4 (some) and will probably support G:T (at least
some), too. 

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:38:00 EDT
From: TravelrTNE <TravelrTNE@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Fleshpots and Marketing...

> > Clone whatever they want.  From the book, i'd suspect each vat is limited
> > (though maybe they can be "reprogrammed") to one kind.  Small ships (w/ a
> > limited # of vats) are said to have comments like "beef again? i'd kill
for
> > lamb" be heard.
> 
> Cloning would still require raw biomass to build from.  If you're going to
store
> biomass, you may as well extrude processed biomass into tubes, flats, or
various
> other shapes and add flavouring, color and texture.

There is no flavoring.  You're making yourself a real slab of beef (or
whatever).  You might want ketchup and accessories, but that won't fill a
ships locker (and is negligible according to FFS2).  The raw biomass will be
necessary.  Even that, I think will be a very small number unless ones
stocking up for a long trip (months at least).  Remember u only clone what u
eat. No waste (unless u want a bone to chew on).

Gary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:43:06 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Armageddon: New RPG from Phil McGregor

Sorry to instrude and waste some bandwidth ... I apologise in advance if you
have no interest at all ...

I have just finished a new SF-Horror-(sort of)Time Travel RPG called
"Armageddon" which is available in PDF format (you get to print it out!), though
professionally laid out, from --

www.hyperbooks.com

More information and some downloadable maps as a sample maps at my web page ...

www.fandom.net/~PGD/index.htm

It may be of some interest to you, and costs only $18 for 380 pages in three
Books, #1 Basic Rules; #2 Here and Now (Modern Characters and Background); #3
There and Then (The World of the 25th Millennia).

Like I said, sorry if you're not interested.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
- ---------------------------------------------
YES! StaRPlay:Armageddon and Dark Star are now
available from www.hyperbooks.com!
- ---------------------------------------------
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 20:42:23 +1200
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

At 07:18 PM 19/05/98 +1200, Steve wrote:

>In New Zealand, it's set up so that everybody (businesses 
>included) pays GST, and charges GST to the next person down 
>the chain - The difference between the two amounts is 
>forwarded to the government.
>Thus if Wholesaler sells $100 thing to retailer, they slap 
>on 12.5% tax, and the retailer pays %112.50. Then the 
>retailer slaps on their markup so the price is now $200, 
>and the tax on that is $25. Total price to consumer $225.
>The retailer gets to claim back the tax paid on goods that 
>are on-sold. Thus they pay tax on the goods that are used 
>by the business. The Government gets 10% of the final 
>amount that the goods are sold for. Nice neat system, only 
>problem is that the compliance costs are huge i.e. how much 
>time and effort does each retailer have to put in to make 
>sure they are up to date with their tax receipts? Answer - 
>lots.

It's also a neat way for businesses and their owners to write off heaps of
things against tax, so it costs a fair bit in investigations and enforcements.

What I really like is the way GST is calculated last, so when our nice
government slaps a thumping great tax on something (say petrol) they then
get to take GST on their tax, as well.

- -- 
IMTU tc+ tn++ t4- tt+ tg- ru+ ge+ 3i+@ jt+@ au- st- ls- hi+ va+ so+ sy--

"If in doubt - wipe it out."
 
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Palmerston North, New Zealand
Web Page: http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/rboleyn/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 04:51:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

> >> The only howls you'll hear from me are howls of delight :) I am SO ready
> for
> >> GURPS Traveller :)
> >
> ><sounds of gunshots in the background>
> >
> >Next?
> 
> 
> I'm sorry, but this does not amuse me. I happen to like GURPS, and think
> GURPS Traveller is going to be good. Moreover, I have played and run every
> version of Traveller there is, and have been on this mailing list a long
> time. Just because I look forward with enthusiasm to GURPS Traveller is no
> reason for this kind of thing. I know what I want out of a science fiction
> game, and feel that the universe setting is what's important, not the rules.
> I simply think GURPS has better rules. I would not "shoot" someone who
> disagrees with me and prefers to stay with CT, MT, TNE or T4, and I don't
> think slamming people who like GURPS Traveller will be conducive to a
> peaceful list. I went through all that acrimonious crap back when TNE was
> around; I really hope we can all be more mature this time.

Like I said before, I don't play GURPS.  The *only* thing I can see good about 
G:T is that it will expose more people to the Traveller gameverse and 
hopefully when Traveller goes back into publication, these people will come 
over to Traveller.  A 'one size fits all' gaming system just isn't my cuppa 
tea, especially when I have to pick up the basic set and a bunch of expansion 
rulebooks just to have a playable system.

I'm an 'old fart', been playin Traveller since '81.  Yeah, I bought 90% of the 
supplements when they came out, but I didn't *NEED* anything more than the 
original LBB's to have a viable game going.  Everything came in 1 box, just 
add imagination.  I bought MT when it came out, too, but held off on most of 
the supplements.  And I've got Survival Margin, but not the complete TNE rules.

In my opinion, it's the setting *AND* the mechanics that make the game.  The 
setting creates the mood, the mechanics gets things done.  Change the 
mechanics, you change the way things get done.

And by the way, I never *did* specify who or what if anything gets shot.

Keven

- -- 
==============================================================================
          http://www.glasscity.net/users/jamstar/index.html
==============================================================================
 "When the going gets weird, | jamstar@glasscity.net  |  Keven R. Pittsinger
  the weird turn pro." --    |    aa253@po.cwru.edu   |   Certified Public
  Dr. Hunter S. Thompson     |        SUE ME!!        |       Nuisance

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:06:34 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Ongoing discussion on Gurps: Traveller

	I see that, once again, some of us are discussing whether a given 
version of Traveller is or not the "right" one. First it was between 
CT and MT, then they both against TNE, and now it is against G:T even 
*before* it gets published.
	For me, G:T are *good* news. Why?

	1) SJ Games does support its games. I have just located a LGS in 
this country I moved in some months ago, and they have got some 
Traveller... a couple of Milieu Zero campaigns and some german 
translations of MT modules. Of course, no hope of getting anything 
that wasn't there. Then I asked about Gurps. You do not even need to 
ask for a supplement, if they do not have it, they order it 
automatically and you get it. And many other LGS act this way. SJ 
Games is not going to be out of business all of a sudden. "G: 
anything" is always a product of an active company.
	So, G:T is going to be there permanently. A version of Traveller 
will always be available, almost anytime and anywhere.

	2) For me, Traveller is the background. I prefer the MT rules 
myself, and I screamed when I heard about TNE using D20s instead of 
D6s, but you can play any Traveller setting with any core rules that 
have been given a little thought. I bet that people in this list is 
using a hundred different task systems, counting minor variations. 
G:T will still use D6s, and it is quite easy to translate a D6-based
task system to the Gurps Skill levels... in fact, it is easier than 
adapting MT to TNE!
	Thus, if Traveller books get published, the resource pool grows. And 
this can only be good. Whether this books are or not going to be 
Traveller because they *could* allow non-Traveller things as FTL 
communication, we'll see. Some of the IG products were'nt Traveller 
at all, for similar reasons (yes, even FTL communications, in JTAS 
26!).

	The main problems between GURPS and Traveller are two. First, that 
GURPS: Space uses a setting with tachyonic communications, but I am 
sure that Loren will make sure that this is specifically ruled out in 
the book. Second, that the TL progression is very different in Gurps 
(see UIltratech, e.g.). But, I am also sure that the G:T book will 
say something about it... gravitic technology is far more advanced in 
Gurps than in Traveller, and the other way around with energy 
weapons, true... but it only takes a short chapter on "Technology" to 
fix it once and for all, applying to all future "Gurps Traveller: 
whatever" books.

	Carlos, a.k.a. the Geonee Maker

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:49:10 -0400
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

>I don't consider GURPS to be Traveller.  And it's not a canonical issue with
>me, it's the issue of game mechanics.  G:T is Traveller converted *TO* GURPS,
>not GURPS converted to Traveller.  It's a totally different look & feel.


Yes it is. But it's a feel I happen to like. You don't. That's fine. There
is still no need to be obnoxious about it.

>Now, I haven't seen T4's rules yet (hell, I didn't even *KNOW* about 'em til
>IG stopped publishing them!!), and I pretty much stopped playing about the
>time of Hard Times/Survival Margin, so I'm not too 'up' on TNE rules, but what
>I've seen since '81 has been a pretty rational and reasonable evolution of
>rules.

I'm sure there are VOLUMES of people here who will disagree with that
statement.

 GURPS comes from a different set of mechanics, from a different
>viewpoint.  It was designed so you could play *any* setting with some
serious
>massaging.  And the massaging is the point of it all.


From what I have seen (and a friend of mine is playtesting GURPS Traveller,
so i have seen it) it is taking far less massaging than some might think.
Also, having played GURPS since it's inception, with the notable exception
of superheroes, it works quite well for all the other genres I've used it
for.


>CT to MT conversions are relatively minor, more of a 'chroming out' process.
>MT to TNE involved more 'chroming' and tightening up of loose ends.


This is inaccurate. TNE was not just a new edition of Traveller; it was a
porting of Traveller into the GDW House System, first used for Twilight 2000
and Dark Conspiracy. And as many will attest, it made some serious changes
to both the game system itself and the background and technological
underpinnings of the game. It eliminated reactionless drives from the
Traveller universe, for instance. (yes, they were in the original version of
FF&S1 as a variant technology, but they were replaced by HEPLar drives in
the "canon".) GURPS Traveller, for example, uses reactionless drives. It
uses, in fact, classic Traveller and Striker as the basis for it's
conversions of ships and technology, with a few minor exceptions.


I have no illusions about changing your mind about anything. but to say
"GURPS Traveller is not Traveller" is as annoying to me as saying "TNE is
not Traveller". It may not be Traveller to YOU, but it is to me. And there
are other people on this list running Traveller in other game systems (right
Doug?) is what they do "not Traveller"? Who are you to decide what is and is
not Traveller? Decide for yourself, yes, but not for me.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 23:12:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Starship Morgages and the Imperial Calender

In mail you write:

> If starship morgages require mpayment of 1/240th of the loan ammount for
> 40 years isn't this 520 payments, not 480 payments as the Imperial
> calender seems to have 13 months.   Thirteen twenty eight day months (+
> holiday) = 365 days in the Imperial year.  This is a much more
> consistent system then our current mish mash of 30 day, 31 day, and 28
> or 29 day months.

The Imperial calendar doesn't *have* months. Quoting from an old post:

> Imperial Dating System: (CT)
> DAY = 24 hours, divided into 60 minutes, divided into 60 seconds.
> YEAR = 365 DAYs, numbered 001 to 365.  001 is a holiday, called
> HOLIDAY; does not have a day name attached.  Other days have a
> day name attached in a cycle of seven; names are Oneday, Twoday,
> Threeday, Fourday, Fiveday, Sixday, Sevenday; elided to Wonday,
> Tuday, Thriday, Forday, Fiday, Sixday, Senday.  Cycle always
> comes out "perfect"; any given numbered day will occur on the
> same named day every year.  Dates written "ddd-yyyy"; ddd is day
> number, yyyy is year number.  001-0001 is date of founding of
> Third Imperium

Frankly, if the rules refer to months, we have several choices:

1. 13 28 day months. This is a pain as dividing the year into 13 chunks
   is less than useful.
2. 12 months of 30/31 days. This is useful, as 12 is divisible by 2, 3,
   4 and 6. Tghis makes it easier dealing with sub-year time periods
   greater than a week.
3. Assume that the references are a mistake.

I find 2 & 3 the better choices. 

Here's a likely calendar for #2:

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                                Holiday                                 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                             First Quarter                              |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| First                 |  Second                |  Third                |
|  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
|  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  |           33 34 35 36  |                 63 64 |
|  9 10 11 12 13 14 15  |  37 38 39 40 41 42 43  |  65 66 67 68 69 70 71 |
| 16 17 18 19 20 21 22  |  44 45 46 47 48 49 50  |  72 73 74 75 76 77 78 |
| 23 24 25 26 27 28 29  |  51 52 53 54 55 56 57  |  79 80 81 82 83 84 85 |
| 30 31 32              |  58 59 60 61 62        |  86 87 88 89 90 91 92 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                             Second Quarter                             |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Fourth                |  Fifth                 |  Sixth                |
|  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
| 93 94 95 96 97 98 99  |          124 25 26 27  |                154 55 |
|100 01 02 03 04 05 06  | 128 29 30 31 32 33 34  | 156 57 58 59 60 61 62 |
|107 08 09 10 11 12 13  | 135 36 37 38 39 40 41  | 163 64 65 66 67 68 69 |
|114 15 16 17 18 19 20  | 142 43 44 45 46 47 48  | 170 71 72 73 74 75 76 |
|121 22 23              | 149 50 51 52 53        | 177 78 79 80 81 82 83 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                             Third Quarter                              |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Seventh               |  Eight                 |  Ninth                |
|  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
|184 85 86 87 88 89 90  |          215 16 17 18  |                245 46 |
|191 92 93 94 95 96 97  | 219 20 21 22 23 24 25  | 247 48 49 50 51 52 53 |
|198 99 00 01 02 03 04  | 226 27 28 29 30 31 32  | 254 55 56 57 58 59 60 |
|205 06 07 08 09 10 11  | 233 34 35 36 37 38 39  | 261 62 63 64 65 66 67 |
|212 13 14              | 240 41 42 43 44        | 268 69 70 71 72 73 74 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|                             Fourth Quarter                             |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Tenth                 |  Eleventh              |  Twelfth              |
|  o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s  |   o  t  t  f  f  s  s |
|275 76 77 78 79 80 81  |          306 07 08 09  |                336 37 |
|282 83 84 85 86 87 88  | 310 11 12 13 14 15 16  | 338 39 40 41 42 43 44 |
|289 90 91 92 93 94 95  | 317 18 19 20 21 22 23  | 345 46 47 48 49 50 51 |
|296 97 98 99 00 01 02  | 324 25 26 27 28 29 30  | 352 53 54 55 56 57 58 |
|303 04 05              | 331 32 33 34 35        | 359 60 61 62 63 64 65 |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+

Each quarter is 91 days. The first month in each quarter is 31 days,
the other two are 30 days.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 00:23:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Lotteries (was Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments)

In mail you write:

> Hey! maybe the Imperium can do what New Hampshire does and raise all its
> taxes by selling all the liquor in the state and running the state lottery!

What with the news going on about the multistate Powerball lottery, I
got to thinking about what could happen given the number of worlds and
the length of history in the Imperium.

Picture a world that has a fairly normal lottery, and scrupulously
honest. But due to Murphy, or Fate, or whatever, the big prize has not
been won in *years*. This has all sorts of adventure possibilities.

People trying to hire the characters to fix the lottery. 

People trying to hire the characters to *prevent* someone from fixing
the lottery.

Best of all:

While passing thru one of the characters has one credit of local
currency left, and just to get rid of it, plugs it into a lottery
terminal, and stuffs the ticket in his pocket. Several jumps later, the
news catches up that there was a winning ticket to the drawing held
just after they left. And it was sold at the starport. 

Upon seeing this on the news, one of the characters will remember the
other character buying the ticket. Naturally this will start a frantic
search for the ticket. (Quick! Stop the recycler! :-)

When they find it, it might not be a winner. But if it is....

The jackpot is the sort of money that you could buy a *planet* with.
How trustworthy are your crewmates? How many people are have decided
it's worth tracking the ships that left port between the time the
ticket was bought, and when thedrawing occured. There could be a *lot*
of people keeping an eye out for one of those ships (or anyone recorded
as having been on them) returning.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 07:31:46 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

Allen, relax partner.... Nobody that I know of is putting down ANY version
of Traveller with the comments that were posted.  Hell, he even threw in a
<G> when he mentioned the shooting.  It was a comment meant to be taken
lightly.  I got the feeling from his post that he was looking forward to the
G:T coming out, not the opposite.

I know that I am looking forward to anything that will be published on
Traveller PERIOD.  If you published a humor page that was only somewhat
Traveller related I would buy it dude.  That's how hungry for material the
bulk of the people on the list is.

I get the feeling you are somewhat overly sensitive to this issue.  Please,
back up a step, take a deep breath and reread the original message.  There
was NO hidden meaning in it except he was going to support G:T.

Thom

- -----Original Message-----
From: Allen Shock <ashock@gte.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, May 19, 1998 5:34 AM
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook


>
>I have no illusions about changing your mind about anything. but to say
>"GURPS Traveller is not Traveller" is as annoying to me as saying "TNE is
>not Traveller". It may not be Traveller to YOU, but it is to me. And there
>are other people on this list running Traveller in other game systems
(right
>Doug?) is what they do "not Traveller"? Who are you to decide what is and
is
>not Traveller? Decide for yourself, yes, but not for me.
>
>Allen
>
Like I said, go back to the ORIGINAL message (before he started trying to
defend himself) and see if your post wasn't some sort of pre-emptive strike
against an enemy you think might have spit on the sidewalk.  There just
wasn't a real slam at GURPS in the original message, it was a shot at some
die hards on the TML.

Have a nice day.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:03:16 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

amarin@walldata.com writes about a T4 news group.

First, don't include the *entire* TML digest in your responses.

Second, Imperium Games has dropped T4.  It's pining for the fiords.  Nailed
to it's perch as it were.  IG didn't even update it's website, what makes
you think they are going to run a news group for a game they don't support
anymore.

Third, the reason for a mailing list as opposed to a news group is to keep
the signal rate higher than than the noise.  Newsgroups are horribly noisy.
 Besides, these days you have to insert spam filters all over your posts
when you post to Usenet.  Mailing lists are harder for spammers to graze.







- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 08:16:11 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Imperial Tax Policy

"Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@glasscity.net> types:
>>Ian Whitchurch types:
>> hey, this sounds like the US IRS!!!!!
>More like BATF.

    Both part of the US Treasury Dept.  Factoid:  Convicted felon G. Gordon
Liddy can't own firearms legally (but Mrs. Liddy has a large
collection...), and spends a lot of time in Washington, D.C., were private
legal ownership of handguns has been outlawed for over 20 years.  His
solution, when anybody hassles him, he tells 'em he is a T-Man.  Nobody,
screws with the Treasury Department! :-)  Remember Elliot Ness!

Ob-Trav:  When your players get caught sneaking around at night on a *high*
law level planet with Battle Dress, Fusion Weapons, and mini-TAC missles,
just have 'em flash a badge and say, "We are with the Imperial Department
of Revenue."



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for 
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked" 
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:16:12 +1000
From: scout <scout@microtech.com.au>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook

At 00:47 19/05/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Don't let 'em bother you Allen. I say, the more Traveller the better, and I
>think most folks here agree with me...and probably with you too about GURPS
>Traveller, too.
>
>Eris,
>    the Heretic
>
>ps. fire at will! ;->

But captain... Will's on our side! Isn't he?


Scout

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 22:21:47 +1000
From: scout <scout@microtech.com.au>
Subject: Re: Marches Sourcebook 

At 04:51 19/05/98 -0400, you wrote:

tons of snippage...
>I'm an 'old fart', been playin Traveller since '81.  Yeah, I bought 90% of
the 
>supplements when they came out, but I didn't *NEED* anything more than the 
<etc>

Hmmmm.... with all of these old farts on the list... this is getting to be
a real smelly place...
(By the way, I've been playing since '83... do I clasify as an old fart or
a squeaky zippy new fart... you know...   "peeeeep")
<g>

Scout 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:19:02 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Marc Miller's T4 News Group

At 05:32 PM 5/18/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Wouldn't it be cool if Imperium Games Inc. published a news group?
>Games.rec.traveller.t4
>It would certainly be easier than the old clunky mailing list or web based
>forum available now. 
>I mean no disrespect, for what they are (tho outmoded technologies), they
>work the way it's supposed to...
>Be that as it may, it would be nice if the makers of Traveller would upgrade
>to a more modern forum.
>Email lists and web bases forums (that just append mail to a web page or
>list) cannot compete with the responsiveness and convenience of a true news
>group.

Newsgroups are not that simple.  First, Netnews is an organization in
itself.  To create a new group, you have to submit a Request For Discussion
to the applicable rec.games.frp groups and to news.groups.  After a 30 day
discussion period, you have to find a neutral person to collect the votes.
There has to be at least 100 more YES votes than NO votes.   I can tell you
from experience that it would fail because the people in rec.games.frp.* do
not like to create new groups.  Even if we got everyone from TML to vote
yes (about 500 people), there would likely be 600 NO votes from the general
public.  It took years and I do mean years (like 10) to get rec.games.frp
to create a hierarchy with rec.games.frp.dnd, rec.games.frp.misc, etc.  and
they were very clear at the time (about 3 years ago) that there would be no
further dividing.  You also have to generate at least 100 messages a month
(which isn't a problem for Traveller)

Newsgroups, like this mailing list have people who thing that sub-dividing
is good, and others who religiously believe that sub-dividing is bad
because a) they end up reading all the groups anyway,  b) fragmenting
hampers everyone from partaking, and c) most importantly, most messages get
cross posted and you end up reading things multiple times.

Newsgroups, while more open, are full of junk and spam.  Posters to news
groups will end up on SPAM mailing lists.  You get people who come in just
to muck things up and there isn't  JACK that anyone can do.  News messages
spread like the plague.  It increases traffic to sites that may or may not
want traffic.

Mailing Lists on the other hand, cater to the specific needs of a group of
people.   If some bozo starts causing problems, he can be unsubscribed or
blocked if really bad.  SPAM can be mostly eliminated.  Messages are not
propagated to sites that do not want them and the signal to noise ratio is
much higher on a mailing list.

I see you are on digest, which may seem antiquated, but you can also
receive individual messages.  Of course, we do not encourage using
attachments or rich text because it hoses the digests, which is a bit of a
restriction, but it is something we can live without.  We don't need red
text on yellow backgrounds to communicate.

I used to be of the mind set that a Traveller news group would be good, but
it got to a point where I could no longer read Netnews due to the sheer
volume of junk floating out there.  I though mailing lists was a dumb way
to do things, but I learned that I get more focused, targeted discussions
with mail.  With all the spam and junk in news groups they are antiquated
and loosing ground as the favored way to communicate.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:17:53 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Free Gurps Lite

	SJ Games has just (14-May-98) produced a 32-pages summary of the 
Gurps System, that e.g. any Traveller Referee wishing to use Gurps: 
Traveller could use as an introduction or a handout for players. This 
introduction is called GURPS Lite and is FREE for the downloading in 
PDF format at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite
	I thought some people on the list could use it.
	Carlos Alos-Ferrer, a.k.a. the Geonee-Maker
	http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
- -----------------------------------------------
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Department of Economics, University of Vienna.
Hohenstaufengasse, 9. 1010 Vienna (Austria)
Tlf: (+43-1) 4277 37438  Fax: (+43-1) 4277 9374
- -----------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 09:42:59 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tax-System in modern, huge Goverments

>Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote
>
>> I've yet to see a 'national sales tax' scheme proposed (at least here
>> in the US) that did a whole lot to eliminate, for instance, the
>> problems we have here in the US with taxes. (unequal tax burdens, a
>> code riddled with loopholes, and lots of tax evasion) A straight,
>> evenly applied sales tax on _everything_ no exceptions, would work,
>> but hell, so would a straight, evenly applied income tax.
>
>As would a per person head tax.  Everyone who lives in the United States
>would have to pay Y thousand dollars in tax.  Anyone without a tax stamp
>would be relatively easily identifiable & sanctionable.

A per person head tax is, ironically, the epitome of the term "unequal tax
burden".

In that scheme a person who makes $1 million in annual income would pay the
same amount of money as a person who makes less than poverty level and
supports her 4 children on that.  That dollar amount just would not be of
the same level of affordability to the two involved.

It has been said that even a straightforward percentage of income (as
opposed to the byzantine system of exemptions and deductions we have now -
and the "progressive" tax chart) is, in fact, a "regressive" tax, meaning
the burden on lower income people is greater-proportionally-than the burden
on poeple with higher earnings.

This all put's me in mind of the quote "Democracy is the worst form of
government...except for all the others."

I would suggest that the U.S. Tax Code in its "bare" form is the worst tax
code in the world, except for all the others.  It's a progressive tax that
increases in percentage as income goes up.  It rewards philanthropic
behavior and home buying.  It collects on capital gains (probably too much)
and gives a break on capital losses (probably too much).  The one problem
is that it is too complicated for the average American to prepare their own
taxes.

Of course there are some purists out there that probably think the tax code
is not the place to attempt to modify human behavior, but I would have
voted for it if I'd had the chance.

I have no intention of starting a "my country tax code is better than
yours" thread (I don't know a lot about other country's tax codes) I just
wanted to point out the good things about the so called "progressive" tax
system we have here.

Now to Traveller.  I think the next convenient planet visited will be inthe
middle of a "Tax Revolt" where the player's cargo is taxed at point of sale
to a significant percentage of tha cargo's value, eliminating any chance of
profit on interplanetary trade.  Of course, there may be Imperial Commerce
Department (ICD) agents around who are trying to correct this matter, after
all, the Imperium wants trade to flow freely and taxing off planet imports
is just not the way to do this.

But the Imperials won't want to interfere too directly, so influencing the
characters to instigate some form of uprising in the starport or among the
brokers might be an option.  Hmmm.

Another possibilty with (or without) the above scenario is to involve the
characters in a smuggling op to avoid import tariffs...

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1998 #499
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